Srecko Sostar

We have been renting for many years. We now rent a residential part of the house (two room flat) we live in and also a large part of one house a little further away. We have always had lower prices than many others..... And we pay taxes to the state  . One tenant is currently without a permanent job because of Covid 19. We told the tenant that the rent amount, which is otherwise for one month, will be for the next three months. Hopefully they can find some work and a paycheck.

8 hours ago, Witness said:

https://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2013/02/jehovahs-genuine-mountain.html

Thanks for link!

On 4/28/2020 at 1:13 PM, Arauna said:

A cry for more power from a woman who wants more say in the congregation.

Is this is "problem" because @Witness is woman, or problem is because she belongs to group of "wise virgins" ...... who all are "women" .... at least in Jesus's illustration ? :))

Wonder, why He used virgins (women not men) to give lesson, and said; some "virgins" (women), are wise and some are not? :))

15 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

On 4/27/2020 at 9:52 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

Idea and practice of posthumous reinstatement, you said is happening in JWorg, is out of mind. You can't reinstate dead body. But you can "punish" elders who done bad things. And public announcement about this, can bring some satisfaction to living family, relatives, friends and brothers who witnessed to injustice. 

Out of your mind maybe. I've only heard of this happening once and I agree with having a man's reputation restored in behalf of his friends and family who knew him. I would want that for sure if it was me. Apparently you wouldn't - that's fine.

81.13 Restoration Within Two Years. If within two years from the date of his suspension a brother tenders payment to the Secretary of the lodge which suspended him, the amount he owed at the time of his suspension plus restoration fee of five dollars, and the amount of the dues for the current year, or if the lodge by a majority vote of the members present remits the same or a part thereof and if such payment and/or remission shall make him clear on the books, he shall be automatically restored to membership as of the date of such payment or remission and due notice shall be taken thereof in the minutes of the lodge at the next stated communication.

81.14 Restoration After Two Years. A suspended member who has remained suspended for a period of more than two years cannot be restored to membership automatically. Such a member shall be required to present a written request to the lodge setting forth his desire to be restored and shall tender therewith payment of all dues in arrears at the time of his suspension plus the amount of the dues for the current year and plus restoration fee of five dollars. The Master will appoint a committee for investigation and report. At a subsequent stated communication the lodge shall by secret ballot take action on the question of restoration. A three-fourths favorable ballot of the members present shall be necessary for restoration. If the member stands rejected the payment tendered with his request for restoration shall be returned to him, and he shall not apply again within six months from the date of rejection.

81.16 When Restoration Not Permitted. If the address of a member suspended for the nonpayment of dues is unknown and he has never signified a desire to restore his membership or if he dies while suspended, a lodge cannot accept from any other person a payment of his dues and then restore him to membership. - http://members.wisc-freemasonry.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Wisconsin-Masonic-Code_2018_Revision.pdf

In Google searching for  WTJWorg terminology - posthumous reinstatement - nothing was found. But i found Masons Constitution. But again, nothing about dead people :))). 

16 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

I've only heard of this happening once

.... hear and say ??? But nothing in print. Perhaps some memo (BOE letter) for elders eye only? :)))

JW's said there is no life after death and how dead person payed for all their sins and waiting for resurrection.

Also, God and Jesus will judge all people, including dead people. But you say how elders are in capacity to deal with dead JW members. :))) Or, particular elders just have to do cleaning job, because of living elders who made a mess.

1 hour ago, b4ucuhear said:

But Satan was more interested in compromising Job's integrity - his everlasting prospects based on his relationship with God. How did he do that? By making the test very difficult to rationalize or understand within the context of his faith. He made it appear as "discipline from Jehovah."

Do You suggest how satan has more power over people than god plan to give him? Do You suggest how context of individual or organized faith in WTJWorg, as in example of Job or old Jew people in past time, is not sufficient to reveal devil's games and deceit? .... I can agree with with this, if you think the same. But, that would mean how devil is powerful enough to deceive whole WTJWorg in the same manner, as he done with many other individuals, groups and nations before.  

3 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

an appeal in writing of the decision if the person feels strongly they were not dealt with fairly/scipturally.

So, JW elders are not what they have to be?

3 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

it's pretty standard practice to be notified that they can appeal.

Standard practice in secular law system? Because secular law system is not good enough as WTJWorg judicial system is? JW elders are guided by HS because of elder's prayer and bible principles, so why congregants would need "standard practice"?

3 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

you would have to have access to written instructions and directions through letters and books. Apparently you don't - which I would say is a good thing frankly.

Secrecy? Secret knowledge? Knowledge that few can understand?

3 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

Are there Bible examples of persons in authority who reversed their decision once they found out they made a bad decision? Yes, of course. Look it up. I'm not going to do your homework for you.  

When Judicial committee made decision about the "case" and announced it before congregation, do you say how they making second or third or fourth meeting and take time to discussing how their first decision is not so good ? 

3 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

As for posthumous reinstatement, evidently the elder body thought it fair

Idea and practice of posthumous reinstatement, you said is happening in JWorg, is out of mind. You can't reinstate dead body. But you can "punish" elders who done bad things. And public announcement about this, can bring some satisfaction to living family, relatives, friends and brothers who witnessed to injustice. 

1 hour ago, b4ucuhear said:

He was posthumously reinstated when it was found that 3 "shepherds"/elders lyingly framed him in order to get him disfellowshipped.

I need to ask: Who and why (for what reasons) and when making revision of elders (judicial committees) decisions? Does in WT exists regulations, charter about such policy - revision on judicial committees? Where we can find instructions on that? What are, where are Bible examples for such practice? 

And of course, same questions for "posthumous reinstatement" !?

6 hours ago, Arauna said:

if you were on earth in the time of Jesus, your OCD

In Jesus time, OCD didn't "existed". In those times, secular medicine and even Jew medicine wasn't advanced as today, they have no clue about OCD. Perhaps they would say how such persons are mad or possessed by demons.

Bible speaks nothing about OCD. Such terminology is not in Bible, so we can conclude OCD not existing :))) similar to some other words: blood transfusion, hell, cross, airplane, GB, organization ...etc. But word "follower" does. :))))

47 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

Where will Russia fit in?

Russian JW's will go to Siberia "wilderness" with Antonov 225.

58 minutes ago, Kosonen said:

So soon the Jehovah's witnesses will fly to a suitable wilderness.

 How many JW's members are aviators for such airplanes? 

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

Satan is depicted as a roaring lion  On the other hand the lion is a symbol of righteousness and the lion of Judah depicts righteous rulership.

Similarly the locust. Its destructive, penetrating traits can be used in two ways.

Do not forget that locusts with 'crowns' on them can symbolize an unstoppable plague; and  since they are not "unclean" insects they can depict an unstoppable group of  Jehovahs servants.

Locusts can also be referred to in their natural capacity and refer to devastation. 

Bible symbolism and human interpretations are source of endless possibilities.

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

Definitely not useless, it served a valuable purpose. You forget that older generations still had proper school education. We learnt history, Latin and all kinds of subjects which made us more prone to read history.  We also learnt to read better than the later generations. 

I loved the books that went into history such as "Babylon the great has fallen" etc.  I did not study it.  It came out before I became a witness but I read it afterward. I also liked some of the older books such as the description of the parables.

I read the old Daniel book quite a few times and this morning read a portion of the old revelation book.....and found something new which I had not seen before.... so you assume to much and your statement is condescending to say the least.

Thanks! Of, course, your education about many things are valuable.

I referred comment on that part of "religious education" that came to be useless even inside WTJWorg standards. All what came to be "doctrinal err" in the eyes of JW bible scholars was changed and automatically is useless knowledge. We can wait to see what other doctrines and interpretations will be changed, reformed or completely reject also because of "clarification and new light". In that sense this future process (or perhaps process that are in progress out of JW members eyes) will also show how useless is present religious knowledge on various subjects that today JW's hold as "truth" and blessings.   

In the age of this Corona contagion, the term "social distance" emerged. In recommending how to protect their health against this virus, health care providers have introduced some measures regarding the behavior of people in their interactions with each other. One of them is famous "social distance".

What does it mean first of all to have "social distance" in this Corona context? This means that the physical distance between persons must not be less than 1 meter, or 2 meters or similar. This is actually about physical distance, not social distance. Because, no one forbade people to talk and exchange thoughts. By any means, directly or virtually, using technology.

From this we could conclude that the term/word and the means used to prevent infection is deficient in clarity, is wrong. Having a "social distance" would mean refraining from making intellectual and emotional contact with other people. It would mean that we do not want to talk to them, that we do not want to accept them as people belonging to a particular "social" group. It would mean that don't want to see them, literally and transmitted. Specifically, we see that these disease measures primarily seek to reduce physical contact between people. This is about "close physical contact". Anything less than 6 feet. :))

What is interesting about Corona measures? WTJWorg using both sort of measures to control "disease" inside Organization for very long time, and without possibility to "relax" this measures. With "shunning" policy JW's members using social and physical distance on people who are not JW members any more. That could mean how "Corona" existing constantly inside WTJWorg, long before Wuhan :)).

@César Chávez thanks for comment. 

4 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Srecko examination of scripture is a convincing application on how not to view scripture.

This remind me on changes WTJWorg made before few years about "approach" to bible text.

In recent years, the spiritual instruction provided by Jehovah’s organization has reflected an increased emphasis on simplicity and clarity...... 

....In times past, it was more common for our literature to take what might be called a type-antitype approach to Scriptural accounts. ....In times past, it was more common for our literature to take what might be called a type-antitype approach to Scriptural accounts. ...Thus, we find that our literature today focuses more on the simple, practical lessons about faith, endurance, godly devotion, and other vital qualities that we learn about from Bible accounts....  -https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/w20150315/clear-simple-teaching-bible-truth/

Well, for decades WT Society made complicated and useless interpretations about Bible text. In this WT study article they said so. Now, supposedly, truth became more simple and more understandable. What sort of knowledge, writers of WT publications were presented before? Boring, inconsistent and complicated explanations that simple and ignorant members could not understand. They said so. Both group, writers and readers!!

 And of course, type-anti type model not working any more in this doctrinal delusions. So, they find it suitable to make "truth" more simple, more clear and more understandable :))) than it used to be in previous decades. They baked a new cake that many eating and ask for more, also as generations of the past done the same with old cake  :))  

9 hours ago, César Chávez said:

What you are insinuating is, no one on earth, has the right to be a “spiritual leader” because you want to confuse it with actual authority of governments.

I guess how "spirituality" has nothing with organized religion, or in other words, individual not necessary need to be under The System of religious Doctrines and Hierarchy to gain spirituality and to please god.

Also, many individuals have some gifts to be "spiritual leaders", or "political leaders" or "leaders" in some sport team or on construction ground while making building or in some project for new toaster or phone. 

I don't denying your's or anyone else "right" to take role of "religious leaders". If GB or WT elders have need to be "leaders" or in role as instruments, tools for implementing decisions of decision makers. What i have is right to put in question your position, or position of your "religious leaders". And to give some observation about structure and policy in such "religious arrangement". 

With comparing "religious authorities" aka GB with "secular authorities" i put, for public conversation, question: who is on higher position? GB or Secular Authorities? Who of these two group, JW members need to obey more? 

I suggest not to respond with general neutral answer: "We must obey god more than men", because that would mean and would clearly point to next level: JW members are NOT Obligated to obey WTJWorg GB doctrines and instructions. Because of same reasons revealed in primary answer made by Peter. Many ex-JW and many of existing JW's are aware of wrong doctrines and policies and instructions made by their leaders. Question for such JW members is "Who do they obey more?".

If JW members are not obligated to submit and obey every (non) "inspired utterance" from GB mouth why JW's members have problem to openly talk about it in private or little groups or on congregational meetings? Why they have fear from men and not from god? That is fundamental question here. JW's are not in fear if they go to prison because of "bible principles". How come to that that they have fear of that they will be dfd because of "things" and "bible principles" which are undoubtedly in sphere of "individual spirituality" and conscience, about so many err and wrong doctrines they have to obey and preach to other people? 

If you are ready to promote any sort of disobedience to "secular authorities" because of religious arguments, than you have to be ready to promote same sort of disobedience to "religious authorities and leaders" in own Church, because of same reason. 

8 hours ago, César Chávez said:

careful study of the Bible

Religious WT leaders aka bible scholars aka elders, inside this Organization aka Congregation, have had all the time from 19th century until today for "careful study". They saw some things different than other churches, some stay same as in other churches. 

"Careful study" wasn't so careful, as you suggest for yourself or for GB. Religious doctrines form past to today are proof for wrong understanding despite all efforts and hours of "careful study". 

8 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Obey your leaders and submit to them,

What about this?

Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. - Rom 13

Where is said that elders are in higher status than governing authorities? Despite idea of .... in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God,^[a] which he obtained with his own blood.

Are you sure that every elder (or all of them in WT) is established and put in place by HS? Because you used this bible text too: ... And when they had appointed elders for them in every church ....

Who appointed elders? They! .... is the answer in text. Or you suggest how this kind of HS power (to appointing other people into elders in the name of HS) is portable, transferable from man to man? But than you will come to stand before wall, again. WTJWorg and GB claims how no single man, woman or child in this Congregation is not inspired by HS. If you are not inspired why would you think how you can be guided by HS to appoint next elder?

You made good conclusion how:

8 hours ago, César Chávez said:

The weight of truth, out weighs any deception expressed by lost souls, regardless if that labor is within or outside the organization.

But, is it possible to see deception because we have "careful study"???

by Merriam-Webster:

Definition of lackey

 (Entry 1 of 2)

1a: FOOTMAN sense 2, SERVANT

b: someone who does menial tasks or runs errands for another

2: a servile follower : TOADY

Definition of footman

1aarchaic : a traveler on foot : PEDESTRIAN

b: INFANTRYMAN

2a: a servant in livery formerly attending a rider or required to run in front of his master's carriage

b: a servant who serves at table, tends the door, and runs errands

Definition of toady

 (Entry 1 of 2)

: one who flatters in the hope of gaining favors : SYCOPHAN

Definition of sycophant

: a servile self-seeking flatterer

9 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Note there is more that one 'slave' and in fact more than one 'type' of slave.

Absolutely. WTJWorg study magazines and other publications with GB as Main Doctrinal Body who giving interpretations on Bible text forgetting reality: Between good and bad, between black and white is wide specter of details and variations. 

But they want only one picture about themselves to be visible and applicable on them. Positive and "imperfectly perfect"picture. Because of such illusion and wrong self perception they are not able to see how their policy and leadership contributes in fulfillment of second part (impossible to be part, as they say) about "evil slave". 

And here we came to second issue. No one appointed them to be in that role of "slave" - good or evil. They choose to be in that role by own free will.  

1 hour ago, Witness said:

JWs will disagree, but Jesus is subtly rejected in the organization, so the concerted effort is on “Jehovah”.

Yes, very interesting subject. We have to remind us how first Christians, or Jesus' followers, Jesus' disciples, put their life, didn't want to reject their faith in Jesus, because of Jesus, and not because of JHVH.  

First followers (not JHVH's followers but Jesus' followers) gave their lives because they did not want to deny their faith in Jesus. They did not want to give up the name of Jesus. The name JHVH was not  the name they want to defend and protect. 

The name Jesus brings some controversy. Interestingly and contrary of what we generally might think and what we perhaps didn't say clearly enough with right wording, but: followers of JHVH name persecuted people who been followers of Jesus name. This giving specific dimension to issue and contribute  to your reasoning and explanation about modern scene and how JHVH Organization operate in the Name of God (FDS, anointed individuals etc). 

2 hours ago, Witness said:

JWs appear to hold firm to the testimony of "Jehovah". 

OT speaking about giving testimony or about be witness for JHVH according to Isaiah. But NT speaking about bearing witness to Jesus. It seems how WTJWorg chooses OT model instead NT.

2 hours ago, Witness said:

It is true that the majority of JWs believe “Jehovah” is the sacred name of God. It is a like a talisman, and I remember using it myself, believing it had some sort of magical power to save me from harm.  What amazes me now, is the ignorance in believing that Satan had nothing to do with changing the sacred use of His name.

Yes, i am also pretty sure how believers, of all kind, and here JW's particularly was and/or will find themselves in difficult situations ........ when invoking the name of God becomes the only, last hope, and when it becomes the only, final way to feel protected.

22 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

It's a bit like scientists being paid to do research, but the one paying tells the scientists what result they MUST find. So it is in the CCJW, you are allowed to do research, but you MUST come up with the answers that the GB tell you to. 

One "catholic" translation of Bible came in 1969 (this was first Bible translation in communist ex-Yugoslavia), and this translation have god's name in form "Jahve" (first JW Bible in Croatian language brought form - Jehova) It is interesting how in preaching service (talking about past time, but seems it is same today) if person on door said Jahve, JW's are not willing to accept this as His name in full, but giving favor to form Jehova. When non JW using  this form instead of "official" JW name for God it sounds in the ears of JW's as "wrong" pronunciation or as less "acceptable" pronunciation.

And you can test this, just start using name Jahve in every day meetings and comments. Many elders will find need to talk with you about it :))))

33 minutes ago, Anna said:

Croatian: Pariz

In Croatian (as in other languages), some city names (as well as other names) are spelled, written differently and pronounced differently from the original. For example, the capital of Austria is Wien (German) or Vienna (English), but in Croatian it is Beč. There is no possible way for non Croatian language reader to see some similarity and conclude it can be same town. As we all have experience with the name in this way, no matter what word you speak in any of the languages, German, English or Croatian for the Austrian capital, most people will be clear about what it is.

Perhaps there is some problems or worry about 4 letters and pronounce and/or meaning of some particular pronounce. If 4 letters representing god's name and Him personally, perhaps the simplest way how not to use wrong pronounce is just simply spelling 4 letters when want to name God. Just opinion :))

It seems how we are all "afflicted" with many things. Not only with Corona, religious doctrines, economy .... but also with pronunciation of letters and words :)))

8 minutes ago, Kosonen said:

And in the case of Revelation, we have several verses talking about the same thing. For example the number 144 000 appears not only once. And not only one verse speak about the mark of the beast and so on. 

Yes, several verses. But several verses from one and same person. :))

1 hour ago, Kosonen said:

"Then a great sign was seen in heaven"  does not mean that everyone would see it, but instead it means simply that apostle John saw what he saw and then recorded it.

This is possible. What some of "Bible" writers, or should we say Jew's writers, saw, heard, dreamed or visualized in the past could have important and special meaning (only) for them and for events of their life (and, or, for people in their  time).

It is interesting to notice how main, fundamental and everlasting ideas we can evaluate, valorize, even today with the least possible misjudgments and theses, are moral lessons and messages in the records about what Jesus spoke. If i can recall correctly, only place, time when Jesus "prophesied" about future is about what will be with Jerusalem and Temple of his disciple time. And not about second or third fulfillment (literally or symbolically) in some future time. This multiple fulfillment was never mentioned in "inspired" writings. Only humans interpretations giving such outcome. 

About Revelation book prophesy. It is notable how we have only John's claim about his visions and dreams about various surreal pictures he described, and how Jesus told him that. Only one disciple and only one apostle of all of them received such messages. Only after Jesus death. While Jesus was alive, we see no records about such way of his speaking and giving special knowledge about life and future and Kingdom. Because that would and will be of greater strength. Many times we heard words: what was said by two or three witnesses that must be truth. We have only one witness, John, who said it is truth what he wrote. Jesus knew about this Jew law and standpoint (and he give same lesson in Mat 18). Why Jesus didn't spread Revelation through two or three witnesses to be in harmony with own teaching? Just as dilemma, from us who have less faith :)))      

Movie "Going to America" with Eddie Murphy, an extremely pampered African Prince travels to Queens, New York in looking for his future Queen wife. And no better place is Queens New York, because even name of the place is very promising for his searching  :))

https://www.imdb.com/video/vi995605273?ref_=tt_pv_vi_aiv_1