Srecko Sostar

7 hours ago, Kosonen said:

I've done. Every Jehovah's witness sell their kingdom hall, house or apartment if owned and car. That would be more than enough money to fly to Australia. 

Maybe that WT ask for a global discount on a 8 plus million plane tickets (free tickets for minor children). In that case, maybe a one-way ticket would only be a dollar per person. And there is no need to sell the property, let everyone rent it and collect the rent, and let it all money sit on the branch account in Australia :)))

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

We live in a world where brothers cannot go to another country and illegally immigrate unless you are classified a migrant from a 3rd world or accepted country. So the GB unselfishly remained in Russia to support the brothers, who could not flee , as long as possible.

So much for those saying the GB just cares about assets.  Here they clearly risked assets to be able to support brothers....

According to news some JW's from Russia asking for asylum in Finland, Norway ...

About 175,000 Jehovah's Witnesses are estimated to reside in the Russian Federation. Since the 2017 ban, it is thought that about 5,000 or so have left the country. - https://yle.fi/uutiset/osasto/news/close_to_90_of_russian_jehovahs_witnesses_applicants_refused_asylum_in_finland/10897023

“We look at every application case by case,” she said. “At the moment, the situation does not seem to be that every Jehovah’s Witness is under the threat of persecution, but we follow the situation closely. If everyone was being persecuted, then everyone would be granted asylum.” - https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/16/world/europe/putin-trump-russia-jehovahs-witness.html

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

It just makes me wonder how first century Christians understood Revelation 12 when they first saw it.

What makes me wonder after reading this two posts of yours is this: For all those who want to escape from dangerous places, primarily they need to have many important and detailed information about who is who in this fight, and where they are placed and where they will go.

How they heard and collect such "classified" information? Also they needed political and military understanding of such information. If first Christians (ex-Jews) acted as Christians aka JW's today, who, according to WT publication, are as 1st Christians in 1st Century, that means they are not part of the World, and not interested in political and military things of this world. That would means, both of this Christians (in 1st century and JW's today) are not "able" to have, to get such kind of secular understanding of political movement and plans, because they are occupied exclusively with spiritual things and matters inside congregation.

What WTJWorg and JW members doing is looking at the general "signs", such as wars, earthquakes, pestilence, shortage of food, crimes and similar. Some sort of going into political examinations and understanding and to giving political picture, analyze about who is "King of the North", who is "Gog of Magog" and similar shows lack of real knowledge and understanding, because interpretations was changed through history. In fact what sort of knowledge GB showed? Political? Religious? Or mixed?  

I am not saying how our looking to go deeper in understanding and our tries to get, to see more is not good, as you showed in your posts (that was good to read for me and helped me to wrote this comment), but want to say how (temporary) WTJWorg attitude "to not be part of the world" also it can mean: We are not voting and not take sides, but we are interested to understand political moves of "our enemies" to be able to escape bad things.

Obviously, GB understanding of political moves in Russia didn't be of much use and "they didn't escape on time" from Russia territory to save life (from suffer and prison) and basic material things. 1st Christians done exactly this. Didn't want to be martyrs, or to suffer for religious rights and similar reasons. 

11 minutes ago, Witness said:

I never called my father by his first name, did you? 

Of course, me too never did this.

I heard this sort of communication between children (son and daughter) and parents in one JW family in my ex congregation. Very strange to hear ....... This children never been baptized and they are now about 25 of age.

@Arauna  , didn't took time to see videos you put. I think how G. Jackson gave some explanation on JWorg TV about "correct" and "wrong" pronunciation. But who can be sure does he know enough about it and what is his "agenda" :))

You gave explanation about two sort of reasons why pronunciation of name was not clearly known. Jew's tradition based on God's command to not using Divine Name in vain, and second is Roman's efforts to preventing any use of Divine Name. If Jews already not using Name in every day life nor in Temple, i am not sure what would be interest for Romans to prevent what was already not been practice in Jew's nation for very long time before Romans came on Israel territory.

I am not sure that using of noun "Father" as way of conversation to God, is in same range as other titles. Because using of this word speaking about specific relation between two persons. Even word "God" is specific and i am not thinking of it as merely as title of person who is creator of life. Problem with such words coming when individual in India or Asia want to explain or convince some individual in Europe or Africa what God is his God and therefore God for each and everyone in this World. :))

8 hours ago, paulus said:

Sorry but unfortunately I have strong fellings on this matter, hence the language.

8 hours ago, paulus said:

I would unfortunately take some pleasure in doing this. However I do not have the authority to do this so will be a good little christian brother that I am supposed to be and not the murderous jw some think I may be.

Freedom of feelings, freedom of speech. .... where is freedom of act ? If i get it correctly, you are asking for "God's authority", but think you don't have that kind of "the authority"? Wrong. God gave people "all authority" by giving humankind free will to do whatever they want, and not going into preventing or to stop any of our "free will ideas".  Of course, we have to be aware of consequences.

If someone want to "fight" against "stupidity" of particular individual here, than he/she must be ready to "fight" against "stupidity" of religious leaders in WTJWorg too. 

Perhaps to say "Father" or "Heavenly Father" would be best solution .... or "God", with large G letter

In fact, this terminology is supported by Jesus' famous prayer as answer on his disciples question, asking; "teach us to pray."

WTJworg "persecution" and "final of final days" is described in publications, videos and interpretations with picture of human enemies who will try to put all JW's to be inactive in worshiping God, to force them for compromise about worship and finally to "destroy" JW's if they refuse to obey secular governments.

Of course we can put this corona virus events in that format too. But it seems how GB leaders don't think how secular commands about health issue have something with "persecution". Corona Virus is just "sign" for "final part of final part of last days". Perhaps some of them wondering will this be how devil will stop worldwide preaching service. And congregational meetings. This two things are big tools of how JW's is organized and how they operate. And this can put on test their loyalty and spiritual health. Because they are temporary cut off from normal and regular way of spiritual life and activity. Yes they using technology in this moment, but that is also "under devil influence" and situation can be changed in a second.

Issue of "flee" is not reserved only for some future events, but is everyday question. Because spiritual "flee" from wrong doctrines and interpretations, from organized religion and other things too, is always very actual

some suggestion:

Sunday = not working day
Monday = preparation for work day
Tuesday = light work day
Wednesday = work break day
Thursday = task finishing day
Friday = Celebrating the upcoming weekend day
Saturday = Celebration break day

.... about names for months go to Croatian calendar, normal meanings  :)) https://www.mojevrijeme.hr/magazin/2014/09/kako-su-mjeseci-dobili-imena-listopad-mjesec-kada-pada-lisce/

If we wanted to understand how voices, letters and words were created, and then how their meaning came about, we would have a difficult task.
On the other hand, it is very simplistic to accept the appearance of a fully developed and clear language appearing with Adam and Eve. But things get even more complicated when we read the report that God initiated many fully developed languages during the time of Nimrod. It means that God is the source of the meaning of every vocabulary.
The words and their origin, concept and meaning that have or have had to people before us or today sometimes changes.
Asking a question or doubt as to whether it is permissible to use a particular word is not completely justified. It's similar to some "vulgar" word. Is "vulgar" word vulgar in itself? I don't think so. The social community has begun to find the word shameful and wants to put it out of use. You know that some people in their curses send an interlocutor with whom they disagree "go to that * thing *". What is "that thing"? Male or female sex organ. What would be the difference if we used a medical or lexical official term for a particular part of the body instead of a vulgar word? Would that even be vulgar swearing then?

Does particular word  have any "magic" meaning? Is there a word of "pagan" origin? Words serve to distinguish between different persons, things or phenomena. The wrong purpose of a particular word is another question. If I start using the word "car" for every house I see in town, it means that others will not understand me or say that I'm a lunatic. But if I gain enough supporters then in that group that word will have exactly that meaning.

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

who on this Earth has the ability to hold them to account?

55 minutes ago, Arauna said:

So these hypothetical cases are really going into the realm of the ludicrous.

Old Israel have had longer history than 1st Congregation and WTJWorg together. All in all, it is notable to see how their God left to Israel people, how they would like to handle inside problems. About politics, about economy, about religious doctrines. God showed patient and wait to see, according to Bible. And when they failed to make changes, He made them to make changes. From some inside moves or from outside forces (other nations). 

Well, if JW's members stay inactive, despite facts how they see wrongs of own leaders, someone else will do the job.

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

In this 'world' there is an inescapable hierarchy which God does not like at all.

I see a little problem here. Is hierarchy, as concept, something what God want to exist? Second question is: what sort of hierarchy is good hierarchy? 

You gave examples about singers, sports, innovators and injustice. That what people doing is questionable, but it is not something what can be connected to issue of hierarchy in core, in fundamental meaning. Those examples is more about our standards, honesty, values about what is important and what contribute to better life. If people love stupid songs and want to listen them is more about trends or bad taste.   

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

the satanic world in which we now live which has a hierarchy and sometimes a class system with extreme 'legal' inequalities.

All secular governments, from the first one, have hierarchy system. And as you emphasized, all are unrighteous.  What makes me worried and sad is fact explained in Romans 13. Or Romans 13 are not "inspired word" but human word, and that is also possible. 

Because Romans 13 gives command to Christians to obey unrighteous system of secular governments. Not to ask questions about secular laws, not to put them on test, not to make efforts to change unrighteous laws, but to be in submission, to obey. JW church support this in full, with few exceptions when come to some doctrinal issues about army service, preaching, free speech and similar. In whole picture of "satanic world" and devil who is ruler of all hierarchical systems, according to Bible, it seems how God and devil support each other in this issue. God blame devil how he is cause of all evilness and injustice, but on other side God command Christians to obey devil's system in full or will be punished, and God will approve that punishing.  

Christian congregation also have hierarchical system. But is this system fully righteous? No, as you admitted too. But as in case of secular hierarchy, Christians are not called to change wrong things and laws in the world and inside congregation too. Because, WTJWorg elders said so. What Bible say about it ? What parts of Bible says you have license to change and fight against wrong things, and what parts of Bible say you have to be passive and wait?

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

All men are therefore equal under God.

In what scenario? Under what circumstances?

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

If we do not accept the ransom it does not work for us.

Is this about previous how all people are equal before God? Righteous and unrighteous are equal before God and Jesus? If Jesus gave life for all, who are that "all"? Does God's mercy and love is only for those who "accept"? What is JW's explanation how looks like this process of "accepting"? To be baptized as individual who recognizes WTJWorg as only saving organization?

In this moments of Corona pandemic, we see how some people are in hierarchical position to give advice, recommendations, commands how to act. Is this hierarchy wrong? I don't thing it is. It is good to have people who know more and can lead people through this. Some people understand this situation and are cooperative, some other not want to listen. Even GB listen to this secular authorities and canceled activities that making JW's as JW's. You are not going door to door ministry despite understanding how this kind of worship is God's command, and is almost unique for JW church as activity that makes JW's recognizable over all false religions. Public meetings also. It seems how this is "devil world" after all, and how Kingdom's invisible ruling is less visible this days.            

16 minutes ago, Arauna said:

1 cor: Because a foolish thing of God is wiser than men, and a weak thing of God is stronger than men.

I am hoping that you not suggest how organized directive to send millions of letters to Russia is God's wisdom and weakness in one package ?

Prosecution and persecution of JW's and other religions in Russia have nothing with question, issue: whose worship of god is true worship, but, seems to me, only average scene of this world and Geo-political "games". 

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

but Russia is unpredictable ... because Satan is unpredictable.  He waits for a weak moment to attack.. ..and comes back again and again.

Weak moment, of who, for who? Russian government or Russian JW's?

What will be "weak moment" in USA or in Europe ...etc?

In Russia devil said JW's are "extremists". What attribute US JW's will get from devil? :)))

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

In my opinion we are all equal before God....... no matter how talented you are......talent, money, influence, position all mean something in a materialistic world..... but it is our true spirituality that matters.

 

We living all under hierarchy system. We don't know nothing else, from our born. And we all have "problems", or we facing with issue of "equality" through all life, more or less. In all life fields. Including JWorg "spirituality" that can't escape from same problems.

General picture in JW World is how people who are in some "special" service inside Organization, are in such service because they are "deeply spiritual". That means, "spirituality" is proved by manifestations in material matters. Some working and living in Betel, some spending many hours in preaching, some are elders etc. Ordinary JW feels as some blessing or privilege to be in society with such people. Why we personally feels to be "privileged" if we are invited to help in Betel, to have lunch with them? Or to have them as guests in our home, to have conversation with some of such persons? If we are "equal", how people in such religious group can avoid to consider "friendship" with this specific individuals as "privilege"? Or in any other social group, on our work place etc?

As @James Thomas Rook Jr. well said we are not "equal", because we all are different and have different characteristic and are different in our "spirituality". Because of age, because of experience, because of our wishes etc.

Are we all "equal" before God? I want believe we are. But religious system, even "the best" one in WTJWorg :))), proves members are not equal before men, and by that also not before god who has "representatives" in JWorg priesthood class. Don't forget how "priesthood class" aka elders (many in special services of all kind too) are (have to be) the most "spiritual" individuals, not only in the Organization, but also in whole World. We all know that is not real to expect.   

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

I don't actually want to be equal to everyone else.

This is very good thought. We have to be powerful and unique individuals who contributing to welfare for yourself and   all other people in place we are living, and by that to whole World. Thanks @4Jah2me  

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

It is my considered opinion that NO ONE is equal to anyone else

Perhaps some "clarification" :))), would be good to use;

how we are "equal" in our needs and what we may expect from other in interaction with people, and how people have to treat other individuals with respect and as "equal" to them, or even more than "equal" because Bible say "value others above yourselves". According to this words, we are not "equal" in some specific way, but rather, person on one side need to think about person on other side, as more important than himself. If you are of more value or importance than me, we are not "equal". 

Such understanding or interpretation of verse in Philippians have power to "destroy" artificial hierarchy inside system. But only if both side implement this idea or "principle" from this Bible verse in life. WTJWorg, in this moment (or perhaps will never be), is not ready to work under such principle. And as we see, individuals are not, in general, ready to act according to this "principle" too.

Because, if they (WTJWorg) would be ready for that, woman role in Congregation and in JW world at all, would be raised on different, next level.  

33 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Did you not read that we all (men and women) should willingly subject ourselves to each other

Yes, i  am aware of such idea in some texts. But i am sure how you are aware that, so called, theocratic order, puts female human in lower position (compared with male) based only because of sex belonging. 

Male JW members are in higher ranking position from start (by born), based only on sex attribute. If some female shows better spiritual and intellectual qualities than some JW male member (brother, MS or elder etc), according to rules you and congregation advocates, she have (it is expected for her) to be submissive, despite the fact that JWorg put published explanation:  

Did God create a woman so that she would be subordinate to a man?  In short, it is not.

Well, when woman show disagreement or is disobedient to male rules, doctrines and decisions made inside family or congregation, that will be viewed as Rebellion Against God's Order, and JWorg is ready to dfd her if she is not willing to change attitude.

God created female (according to Bible text and JWorg explanation above) in atmosphere and under circumstances that shows us how women's "aspiration" to be Equal to men is so Natural and Positive and Needed. I can't recall some verse where Jesus speaking in favor of male and against women in this issue.

43 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

There are some aspects of it I even prefer—such as wearing my slippers.

... is the color of slippers matched to the color of tie ? :))

Perhaps the problem lies in our concept of what is the "proper" worship of god.
For example, "true" worship of God, within a religious system, would mean that there is nothing that makes that worship questionable. Doctrine, the way the doctrine as whole or particular doctrine is applied, the state of the spiritual heart of the believer toward himself, toward god and toward other people and the relationship of the believer to the world around him as whole.
But we can also lay out the theory and the possibility that the "true" worship of God is relative and perhaps does not exist, because people who participate in the worship process have the problem of establishing what is true and what is not, and not just about God and Bible, but about themselves.

Also, perhaps people forget possibility how god's opposer have no problem with religion where 50, 68 or 95% of doctrine is "true" but rest is not. Or how members of some religion are most peaceful people in the world but one or few of their's doctrines are "false true". 

If members of some religion have idea how they have "the truth", but in the same time that "truth", as concept, is under various process of transformations under and because influence of "light", and how content of "pure" truth and doctrine depend on our progress of understanding, than people create specific way of worshiping god.

In all that we need answer on: how far true god is ready to go in accepting human worship that is, and we clearly see that, contaminated with human's and devil's influence?  

1 hour ago, Witness said:

“But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it should not be” (let the one who reads understand), “then those in Judea must flee to the mountains!"  Mark 13:14 

Given the very long time and different religious ideologies, but also different interpretations within the same religious community, one could conclude that a "disgusting thing" exists at all times and in all places. Because of this, people who see and want to react, must constantly be ready to "flee to the mountains".

53 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

.... and then, in the quiet of the night, I wonder why all the lands around Israel have abundant oil .... except Israel.

... perhaps they had economists and environmental non-governmental organizations  who worked against fossil fuels and advocated for green technology :))

15 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

For the longest time we have said our preaching will end someday. What if this turns out to be it?

Preaching of JW are based on, primarily, this: as much worst condition in the world are, the end is nearer. This is win situation for WT. If "preaching" stopped than end is here. If preaching not stopped than this means you have to save more people. If "preaching" stopped but nothing happen than you can wait to hear "clarification". JW will never lose their spirituality and hope, because humankind will continue in this state for very long time, unfortunately.  

16 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Yes, I know, I know—those taking the lead today are not Moses,

It is good to remind on factual records of Israel history. With or/and without Moses, people of Israel lived and died not too much different than any other nation in history.

21 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Some people believe the bible to be exceedingly patriarchal

I am curious to understand this. 

from JW page:

Did God create a woman so that she would be subordinate to a man?

In short, it is not. ..... - https://www.jw.org/hr/biblioteka/casopisi/wp20120901/kako-bog-gleda-na-zene/

subordinate = having less power or a lower position than someone else in a company or an organization -https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/subordinate

"Let a woman learn in silence* with full submissiveness." - 1. Tim

submissive = showing a willingness to be controlled by other people: - https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/submissive

When JW women or other individual not showing submissive position inside "congregational arrangements" than she/he will be rejected if continue in such behavior. Because hierarchical system giving favor to men on position of power. 

If you not show willingness to obey congregational arrangements than you will be "forced" with various methods to position of subordination. If you still resist, you will be marked, shunned and/or dfd.

Words subordinate and submissive are very close in meaning with same final demand and repercussions.

In this i see contradictory in WT publications when explaining position of women or other individuals in Bible history and JW congregation.

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I don't think it's a conscious decision, but the new definition of generation is really just a throw-away definition that effectively tosses out the idea of a generation or lifespan from 1914. So most of that problem is gone.

It can be so for new and coming generations of JW members ( younger in age and who are not so long time in organization). Older members try/tried to cope with issue and found few methods how to deal with wrong faith doctrine. 

More serious "problem" not gone, and will stay "forever". To give and show trust in GB leaders, because Jesus also trust GB. :)) 

In some situation it is good to show trust in "authority". For example, here in Croatia and especially in Zagreb after strong earthquake citizens need to show trust and listen to secular authority and medical experts how to deal with two problems.

PS

As ironic way of look on technology, we can add: "thanks" to devil weapon/invention called web, internet, satan raised JW meetings and preaching on next level, scale - in virtual reality. You can stay at home and spread the word. Perhaps costs for organized preaching, as publisher, pioneer and missioner or for any other special service, will not require, for these reason, donation money in the future :))  

16 hours ago, Arauna said:

Eccl 31 . .... even women can buy property and work hard to provide things for the family. 

"even woman can buy property"

.... this sound very patriarchal . Well, this kind of wording, argumentation how EVEN WOMEN can do this or that is so humiliating, and sound as very special privilege for women. It is sad when society of every sort (in this case Old Israel) and in what ever period of time have to put in law, something that must be NATURAL RIGHT for human been, no matter of sex.

PS

It came to me now, how OWNING something perhaps is NOT NATURAL. No matter is it about owning another human been or piece of land or spring of water or .....

Issue of "Owning" is for further discussion.