Srecko Sostar

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

(1 Thessalonians 3:12-5:1) . . .  4 Finally, brothers, just as you received instruction from us on how you should walk in order to please God, just as you are in fact walking, we request you and appeal to you by the Lord Jesus to keep doing it more fully. 2 For you know the instructions we gave you through the Lord Jesus. . . .  just as we told you previously and also strongly warned you. . . .9 However, concerning brotherly love, you do not need us to write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another. . . . 11 Make it your aim to live quietly and to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we instructed you, 12 so that you may walk decently in the eyes of people outside and not need anything. . . . 18 So keep comforting one another with these words. 5 Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you.

Strictly speaking, WT and GB failed in fundamental instruction made by Paul.

...Make it your aim to live quietly and to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we instructed you...

... 5 Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, you need nothing to be written to you.

All sort of programs, activities in HQ and WT Branches have people who not earn daily brad with own hands, but with donated money. Yes they working something. That is not issue. But their "products" should not be for "sale" and  for making money for "daily brad", pocket money, healthcare, pension, accommodation etc. This is way how one group of people living on cost of other group of people. And this forms classes inside "you all are brothers".  

Some JW members are fascinate more some less with individuals inside Bethels and Bethel service as whole. In general JW's minds these places are sort of "center of spirituality and spiritual paradises". Both sides contribute to such misapprehensions. 

World HQ and Branches not contributing to "quiet life" with these structure, system that is same as in some other organizations who living on cost of members. Never ending alerts about "end is near" making JW people to live in "mental and spiritual noise", and that for sure can't bring to "live quietly and to mind your own business". Because, living in alert state don't bring to inside silence and tranquility... but to many "futile" lives, or lives that could be used for something more.  GB contributed and still doing today to so many explanations on "times and seasons" multiple and repeated writings, publishing materials .. contrary to Paul who wrote 20 century before - you need nothing to be written to you.  

46 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

My point is that by thinking about what this "spirit" produces, we can use common sense to know what we should accept as "inspired." We can see how all of it fits the core teachings that fit the spirit of Christ Jesus.

Identifying books to be included in the inspired canon seems to be simpler process that others might be overthinking. It's based on some expected principles and a little common sense. To keep from going on too long, I'll pick up on that point in the next post.

48 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

So the primary purpose of God sending the spirit into the hearts of Christians, a kind of anointing by holy spirit, is so that we will produce the fruitage that grows from that spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness and self-control.

All in all, what was said and ideas/thoughts expressed in comment, giving very nice way of how to have advanced, "inspired" thinking and reasoning. You put word "inspired" on another level of meaning, for JW members to take in consideration. This is in harmony with another verse, how everything what is "good" is from God. And by that it is "inspired", in very wide meaning of the word.

This concept "confirms" G. Jackson testimony at ARC how "GB is not the only spokesperson for God" :))

14 minutes ago, Isabella said:

The criminal trial of 19-year-old Jehovah's Witness conscientious objector

I went through this (was also 19) and spent almost 3 years in prison for refusing military service in ex Yugoslavia. He will have hard time, and already had, according to report. Did he made best decision? Did i made? :)) 

Some or perhaps many of us were been lucky, some didn't. But, decision is decision. We all have to face with known and unknown possibilities. 

14 minutes ago, Isabella said:

Rep. Chris Smith, R-N.J., left, co-chair of the Tom Lantos Commission on Human Rights, talks with Elizabeth Cassidy, center, and Melissa Hooper after a human rights hearing Feb. 27, 2020, at the Rayburn House Office Building in Washington. RNS photo by Adelle M. Banks

When representatives/politicians of US government and non government entities speaking for or against  another political system and country/state, than this call for caution.  

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Have you seen the list of writings that @JW Insider kindly supplied on my other recent topic ?

Would you please give me a link of the topic

You made excellent topic !

13 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

In 367, Athanasius, the bishop of Alexandria, wrote an Easter letter that contained all twenty-seven books of our present New Testament. In 393 the Synod of Hippo affirmed our current New Testament, and in 397 the Council of Carthage published the same list.

 

But :-

 

In the first and second centuries after Christ, many, many writings and epistles were circulating among the Christians. Some of the churches were using books and letters in their services that were definitely spurious. Gradually the need to have a definite list of the inspired Scriptures became apparent.

"Gradually the need to have a definite list of the inspired Scriptures became apparent."

How much reasonable is to expect and believe that "uninspired" people made selection of "inspired" scriptures?

How much is reasonable is to expect and believe that all these "gifts from spirit" described in Bible books, and in 1st century especially, are unique ONLY for past period. When Bible speaking about time when "miracle gifts" will stop and disappear why we conclude how that was stop in the long past (1st century), and will be again in a far future? (Or not so far, but before 1914 generation end, die :)) )

And of course, what of writings are truly inspired by God, and what was just history (true or little made up)?

9 hours ago, Leander H. McNelly said:

Can you control the behavior of another?

If WT is not able to control their own people behavior .....let them dfd all, all those who are out of control :)))))))

Now, let us be serious. Systematic program of Elder Body Judicial Committee is to put people's (bad or not bad, question is open) behavior inside controlled boarders. Boarders are made by Bible Principles and by WT human rules. Sometimes they are in collision, but that is another issue. 

It would be nice to see all those "clear instruction/s" about CSA issue from, as you said 50's to nowadays. I am sure how WT organization made few "clarification" about same issue because "light getting brighter" from day to day. Do you or some other people here have some time to show us documented "progress" or "invariable instructions" on this subject in that period of about 70 years? Articles, magazines, BOE and CO letters and other inside official and unofficial conversations of those who creating organizational policy. 

1 hour ago, Leander H. McNelly said:

Yeah, think about how governments have to manipulate their own laws to satisfy people that don't think and are looking for "blind justice".

It was said too harshly :)). Governments just "rowing" on their way to find truth and justice. Also, in meantime they giving "clarifications" and "instructions". :)) Is this "manipulation"? In the same way and purpose as WT JWorg doing to their members.

5 hours ago, Leander H. McNelly said:

That's your opinion. Why? Because the Watchtower is forced to play by their rules within their secular laws? Due process is big with governments unless it's inconvenient or manipulated by bigger forces like the Vatican.

Forced to play??!! :)) 

If i remembered well, this issue was explained by apostles in 1st century who gave role model of HOW NOT to BE FORCED by Secular Laws :)) ... But to be beaten and put in jail .. and they liked that, was happy for that.

WT Lawyers don't want their Clients go to jail, prison or pay money.  

53 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Babylon had land, Nineveh had land, Elam had land and so did other nations which God had judged.  The land was not the focus for punishment but the wicked people......  I wonder sometimes if you ever take jehovah or the bible seriously.  You are not just condescending towards people but even towards God.  Do you take anything seriously????  

 

As i try to tell in previous comment: If God is interested to "punish" wickedness of all kind, or only few that are worst of all other, than He will have daily work. And not only about evil people in "promised land". Many people, before and after Israel entered in "promised land", did same or similar disgusting things. But God did not intervene. Why? 

Well, Israel people not killed all those people because, or only because they are wicked, but because they lived in "promised land". After occupying the land, the Israelites never went on a mission to eradicate evil and wrong worship in the world. No, they didn't care what other nations did. Only about neighborhood nations and border problems. :))

56 minutes ago, Leander H. McNelly said:

That’s the point, the watchtower doesn’t hide pedophiles,

We have to defined word "hiding". :))

I guess how WT JWorg not hiding criminals, generally said. If they would or if they doing that, organization should be ban. 

But WT, JWorg, CCJW and other under Mother Organization hiding own incapacity, ignorance, shame, incompetence, etc. They are ready to not give truth, all truth and nothing but the truth in this issue, and they are hiding exactly this. 

They are hiding truth....and as result, sometimes that means they are hiding individuals who need to be prosecute. Prosecute if they are child molesters and prosecute if they not revealed this evidence, fact or if reasonable doubt about it exist.

Nothing about this on  JW TV. 

13 minutes ago, Arauna said:

The only pre-emptive war Israel participated in was the " cleansing " of the promised land.  This was an execution of a judgment bymeans of Israel upon wicked peoples who burnt their children in fire and had atrocious sexual behaviours. God promised that Abraham's children would be given this land  but their error must first come to it's full measure.

This was not murder because jehovah does not murder.  These pagans paid for their gross error.  Just like Sodom &  Gomorra - this was not murder but a judgment because it came from jehovah.

Out of question did ALL people and children in "promised land" was so wicked and have to be killed or to be given a second, third or fourth chance to regenerate and stay alive (appendix*), I would like to comment this side of issue. God is absolutely Justice and Mercy. In that aspect His angels-warriors are able to done such task of "killing" wicked people. Or not? Did Noah flood was done with help of angels or by some other proces that God himself put in work?

If His angels already had experience in bloodshed of wicked, why God found how His chosen people, human, had to learn how to kill, to learn to be organized in killing process and war tactics. Why He want that minds of this Israelite (soldier) be drag into dark side of human psyche. Beside this, warriors on battle field were not been able to bring "correct judgement" about who "deserve" to stay alive and who not, because "cleansing of the promised land" was not only battle in which Israel was involved through history.    

*appendix 

It is also interesting how all was about taking a land, more than about "wickedness" of people who already lived in "promised land". Because in many periods before and after this particular issue, God showing endless patient and mercy with all people, individuals and nations around the world, no matter how wicked they was/are.  

4 hours ago, César Chávez said:

The point of “free will” is for humanity to exercise that choice between good and evil. Did God tell Satan to confuse the first pair? No! And because of that angelic choice, we are in the mess we are in, now.

 

What needs to be understood is the word” judgement”. In the OT, God had direct judgement. God has every “right” to exercise that judgement. God has every right to claim his sovereignty.

Seems, we established fact how all involved in our discussion have "free will" to act as they wish and can. Also we came to fact how God allows all what was and is in process in Universe including individual free will.

You mentioned "angelic choice" about issue on Adam and Eve, and, assume, about everything what after was on Earth. How we can read from Bible text what particular event in human life is result of:

1) God's will and wish and plan

2) "Angelic choice" (good and bad angels)

3) Human free will to act or not to act ("human choice")   

4) Coincidence and accidentally event

5) God's "judgement" 

An advanced understanding of this points (and some other) could help in answering the question of this topic, too.

20 hours ago, César Chávez said:

You have the same obscured view JTR has.

Wrong :))

20 hours ago, César Chávez said:

Once again, God has "never" murdered anyone. The example you gave is about God's angels working in saving innocence.

What about much more examples when His angels did nothing for saving innocent people? Was this angel's inactivity because God didn't command action? Or angels have independent choice to decide who they will "kill" and who to "save"? 

20 hours ago, César Chávez said:

God did not sanction the killing of Abel.

Also ..... His angel didn't save innocent Abel, as you suggested in previous comment how He done exactly that in some other events with some other people.

Some would say how God has right to give life and to take life. No one who trust God don't think how He would "kill" innocent people, but also every one expect from Him to punish evil people. What will be punishment? 

If you have problem with idea, does He with own hand execute evil or He giving order to someone else to execute evil, that is less important in final result.   

4 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Jesus willingly walked into a known death trap ... but it was constructed by the Jews, and sprung by the Romans after an unfair trial .... but it was a legal  trial ... and it was done by the Roman government having military occupation of Israel.

 

 

This remained me on common fact. World is full of "legalism" and courts making "legal" trials and decisions. Even JWorg has "legal system". But many times they all making wrongs and injustices.

9 hours ago, Anna said:

We are getting tied up in semantics here. There is always going to be someone "put in charge" of a group who have some assignment to do. Did you never get put in groups at school, perhaps a sports team, with a "captain" ? There is nothing sinister about that, just makes practical sense. Also, in the JW arrangement, someone taking the lead is to lead mainly by example. JW 'leadership" roles are modeled on the first century Christian "leadership" roles. The apostle Paul designated brothers to take the lead in various assignments.....and of course the elder arrangement is Biblical also. 

Hebrews 13:7, Acts 6:3, Acts 14:12, Romans 12:8...etc..

 

Of course, it is understandable. I made just comment on that in  this way to soften arguing about what sort, class of people made more bad deeds of CSA inside some institution, are they those individuals with more or less important position inside some structure.

At the end, it is of less important in whole this issue (do we have higher numbers of elders or ordinary members who made crime). Main question is how management  and members respond on such crime. What they doing when that happened?

Both group can "hide" this problem. But, as it is obviously clear, "those in position of leadership and who need to be role model" for other people inside institution bear greater responsibility and have to be "charged" more for doing and/or not doing.

20 minutes ago, Anna said:

Proof that the majority of cases involves "parishioners" being the perpetrators, not those in leadership positions.

Apologize, just want to little tease you :))

Leadership position? But JW members would say: We don't have human leaders, because our Leader is One, Jesus. :)) If JWorg has no leaders than no single leadership position is available for any of member. 

Elders and other in this WTJWorg nomenclature are in same "level" with rank-and file members, because "you are all brothers" :)) 

In such perspective, looking on whole Organization as Union, as United Brotherhood where all are equal before God, every other "worldly" or "false religion" standard is useless for emphasis .... especially for internal, congregational conversation and for this Forum too. 

13 hours ago, César Chávez said:

For one, God has “never” murdered any of his creation.

Exodus 15

"The LORD is my strength and song, And He has become my salvation; This is my God, and I will praise Him; My father's God, and I will extol Him. ³ "The LORD is a warrior; The LORD is His name. ⁴ "Pharaoh's chariots and his army He has cast into the sea; And the choicest of his officers are drowned in the Red Sea.

Psalm 24

Who is the King of glory? The LORD strong and mighty, The LORD mighty in battle.

Exodus 14

"The LORD will fight for you while you keep silent."

Psalm 45

Gird Your sword on Your thigh, O Mighty One, In Your splendor and Your majesty!

......... and so on :))

https://www.nationalredress.gov.au/support/explore

i am receiving newsletter about this issue, and as we see JWorg has no intention to join.

5 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Witnesses did not predict anything.

Bearing in mind that the name Witnesses has the general meaning that they are people - members belonging to one religious community, then it is true that they do not prophesy, maybe just assume, predict, expect.

predict: to say that an event or action will happen in the future, especially as a result of knowledge or experience - https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/predict

 But, it is interesting, on what basics WTJWorg, who gathering members - Witnesses, do collect and multiple knowledge  that make them to be "sure" and bold to assume, predict, expect and interprete Bible verses and world events? Do they (WT GB and Helpers) doing that in similar way as Jethro Ibileke did when made comment about Awake magazine? Will they repeat errors? Our experience says: Yes.   

3 hours ago, Isabella said:

By Jethro Ibileke

He reading Awake in wrong way. :)))

Article said how MANY EXPERTS, Medical Journal VACCINE and JOHN M. BARRY ..... PREDICTED this and that.

Warfare definition is - military operations between enemies.

WHY .... doesn't Jehovah God consider warfare ... murder?

Because He have enemies?

58 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Knowledge: a tomato is a fruit

Understanding: Don’t put it in a fruit salad.

 It seems how JW people don't using proper Understanding when false Knowledge is presented.  

Knowledge: End is near

Understanding: We must build new modern center for making digital spiritual food.

In this, both is questionable. The knowledge and the understanding. 

I noticed about some Bible verses and reports about some events where taking other people life is issue this:

In some events, according to Bible,  God making fire from heaven, earthquake, flood, angels warriors or similar and killed few or many people.

In some other events, perhaps there is more such reports, God told, command particular people to kill other people, under various and different circumstances.

From this we can conclude, how people who belong or think they belong to only true religion or organization can't know for sure: will their God told them to stay still and watch, or will He command them to take action. God showed two side of his will.

In old Israel they had professional soldiers, but before they came to have professional army, many were simple ordinary workers. And they learned skills. JW people today not learning such skills, but for sure learning how to use "theocratic warfare" methods .... and that can be lethal too. (Not reporting CSA to secular government and shunning policy can have for sure very bad results).