Srecko Sostar

9 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You idiot, the three examples you’ve given are all clergy—those in leadership capacity. Exactly my point. With JWs it is almost never those who would correspond to clergy—it is the ordinary member. The printing presses will run dry if they ever attempt to report on members of the other denominations—but they never will because hardly anyone other than JWs tried to do anything about the CSA problem. 

And there is Srecko giving you a ‘thanks’ for the ridiculous comparison you made. Silly as you may be, he does not here give evidence that he is any smarter.

Dear Tom,

try to look on this clergy-ordinary member issue from standpoint of WT publication, WT lawyer, JW congregation members and Bible. 

WT publication quoting how JW don't have PAID CLERGY. Obviously in the eyes of writer there is some difference between PAID and NOT PAID CLERGY. But, such explanation giving space for possibility that JW Church HAVE CLERGY at the end of the day.

WT Lawyer contribute and confirm that JW Church in fact HAVE CLERGY, and they defending this with asking for all rights and privileges for JW Elders as Catholic Church Clergy have. 

JW congregation members are in the middle and have delusion how their church do not have CLERGY because they believe that elders are not clergy.

Bible giving perspective how jobs or working place in congregation not making elders to be clergy but only people with more responsibilities. Bible say how ALL of YOU are BROTHERS.

In this picturing with explanation, in one Court case, what @James Thomas Rook Jr. highlighted in one post, WT Lawyers told how all JW people are "ordained ministers". That means how all members in JW Church belong to hierarchy as any Clergy does. In that aspect, even minor member belong to particular level of clergy hierarchy. 

With Bible explanation how ALL of YOU are BROTHERS we can say how every case of CSA in JW Church is more serious than those cases in Catholic church. Because in JW congregation, in theory, elders are just members of congregation and non elders people are also just members of the congregation. That makes CSA to be plague in all Body of JW congregation, and not just separate, lonely exemption of few people who made sin/crime as Catholic Priest in Roman Church. Catholic Laity are just laity, people who have weak spiritual education. In JW congregation rank and file members have best "spiritual education", according to WT publication claims, so they carry more responsibility and are more "guilty" than Catholic laity. :)) But, as we see more Catholic pedophile clergy/laity members ended in Court than JW pedophile members. And you know why.   

11 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

With an active and prolific hate campaign being waged against Jehovah’s Witnesses online, it is reasonable to think that it indirectly instigates persecution of them in Russia—even escalating to arrests in which torture is applied, as in this case. It is reasonable to think that it indirectly instigates the torching of two Kingdom Halls in the United States during 2019, both of which burned to the ground.

I think it is value to have personal opinion and thoughts about this subject. But i think you failed. 

I would like to ask, did or does Russian secret service follows ex-JW channels , blogs, commentaries on internet or else, at all, or in such measure of interest that be possible to said how such information "inspired" Russian Government in a level to ban WTJWorg in their country? 

Secular sources and even JWorg web site giving idea how ROC is reason why JW and other religions are under political attack. 

Jehovah's Witnesses are one of the main targets of the attack led by the Russian Orthodox Church.  - https://wol.jw.org/hr/wol/d/r19/lp-c/102001284

I think the real reason for this persecution is that they approach people directly, preach face-to-face, and thus compete with the Russian Orthodox Church in some regions. Obviously, the Moscow Patriarchate and top security officials are behind the whole story. " - https://hr.rbth.com/politics/2017/05/03/borba-s-jehovinim-svjedocima-rusija-zabranila-americku-crkvu_755251 

Also, you have funny article on JW web site, about Who is Gog from Magog with "new clarification". Your's leaders gave explanation in which nothing had been said about ex-JW who, supposedly, leading any attack against WTJWorg in Russia or elsewhere. - https://www.jw.org/hr/biblioteka/casopisi/w20150515/gog-iz-magoga/

I am suggesting  you to publish new article with demanti, own rebuttal. :)))

On 2/12/2020 at 6:02 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

Did Ministry has program of monitoring various groups for purpose to give them state funding, or JWorg made, fill out the Application Form for this? 

I went now on JWorg web and find this about my question:

Since 2007, the Swedish government has repeatedly refused to grant Jehovah's Witnesses state subsidies, despite the fact that most other religions have received them. Our beliefs concerning political neutrality were criticized.

Our brothers had to turn to court on three separate occasions to try to get a fair treatment by the Swedish government. And each time, the Supreme Administrative Court considered that the government's decision to refuse our organization state grants was contrary to the law and would be reassessed.

On October 24, 2019, the government finally amended its decision, noting that Jehovah's Witnesses fulfill all the requirements for state subsidies.

Yeah, WTJWorg go on Courts "fighting" for money. :)) Greed, love for money ??

Yes, it is understandable if person have determination not to "betray" his fellow, religious camarade.

But it is not acceptable for lawyer of same organization to refuse to tell who are members that were involved in CSA.

While some suffer because they do not want to answer questions about the activities of the organization they belong to, during that time others, in suits and ties, tell the court that they are a clergyman and do not want to divulge secrets aka confidential information. 

@James Thomas Rook Jr. after reading Awake article some thoughts came out. 

After the flood Jehovah God pointedly told Noah: “Anyone shedding man’s blood, by man will his own blood be shed, for in God’s image he made man.” (Gen. 9:6) Yes, even before he gave a law code to Israel, God permitted capital punishment................

But what about war? Were Israel’s wars in violation of God’s command that is fittingly rendered, “You must not murder”?

No, they were not. The fact is that the Bible never uses the term ratsahh (murder) regarding any of those wars. When the Israelites warred at God’s command, they were not acting illegally. They were authorized by and were being directed by the Supreme Lawgiver. (Isa. 33:22; Ps. 19:7) These wars were not wars for limitless territorial conquest, 

.....(my add: yes they took territory :))

What about Christians? Since the Sixth Commandment merely restated what God had said earlier through Noah to the whole human family, we are still obliged to avoid murdering. .....(and to add again - capital punishment is legal and permitted by God, as article concluded)

Now, what about Christians today. Article using terminology "Christians", and not JW's or WT or JWorg and similar.  God have, according to Romans, His own arrangement and system how to punish wrongdoers. And that is SECULAR AUTHORITY. This is His SERVANT. But not only in Individual type of crimes, but about all sort of crimes on Global scene, on nationals levels. 

When one group, tribe, nation, fight against another one, for what ever reason, and murder number of individuals, they are guilty for taking their life. So, they need to be punished. Perhaps that can be reason for some group, tribe, nation to fight back and go to war. As article say, this is "Noah Law".

Well now, we have Romans epistle where God say how "Christians" are under Secular Authority Law, because they are His Servant to Punish crimes. Who can, have to punishing wrongdoers? Those who are Authorized? Who was given this Authorization? To Secular Authority, to Government in every single Nation.  

To make it short. "Christians" ares allowed to work under Secular Authority as executor of Government's orders about Capital Punishment decisions. If JW's consider self as the same as in article's terminology - "Christians", then JW can be policeman, executor of death penalties, or soldier in the army who working under Secular Authorities commands and instructions, wright or wrong, justice or injustice, because they are under God's appointment and His will to make free decisions. Because they will answer to God, not to JW member. 

In other words, JW member is not Authorized to questioning decisions made by Secular Authorities in the same way as he/she JW is not authorized to questioning GB doctrines and instructions.   :)))))

Well, can we choose who will we listen more, Secular Authorities or GB? Yes, we can choose to listen our conscience and free will. And take consequences for that, of course :)))

16 hours ago, César Chávez said:

People that believe the Watchtower has erred in interpretation of scripture are those opposed to the truth and seek their own independent understanding of scripture.

This was already answered by @JW Insider. I need to say how you have strange way of perception and conclusion about this issue. You try to defend WT Society and GB who making clear and loud statements about own errors and wrong religious teachings.

16 hours ago, César Chávez said:

When the bible mentions to test, these are the areas where a Christian should test those that carry an independent view of scripture.

?? Fantastic!  Testing people who have independent view of Scripture. If you already know that individual has "independent view" (you obviously think how bad must be to have Independence), why waste time with testing person? You already know difference between "good and bad" view. :))

When GB member Geoffrey Jackson made "clarification" about this question: "Do you see yourselves as Jehovah God's Spokespeople on Earth??

with answer:

"Aaa, that I think would seem to be quite presumptuous to say that we are the only Spokesperson that God is using."

....questions arise: 

What other individuals or groups Mr. Jackson had in mind that are also used by this same God to fulfill His will here on Earth? 

Are they inside WT Society and JWorg, as some illegal FDS GB Body, and are part of Plan B?

Or perhaps this "spokesperson"  is/are in some other religion, institution or are completely outside of any group and organization?

What do you think about it, JW people or anyone else?!

On 2/9/2020 at 9:40 PM, Witness said:

For those who were unable to see the documentary last evening on "Oxygen".

 

I don't see any link.

.........

Oh, JTR and JJJ provides some links. Thanks.

22 hours ago, Isabella said:

Sweden Ministry of Culture concluded that Jehovah’s Witnesses “contributed to maintaining and strengthening the fundamental values upon which society is based.” It allows them to receive state funding

Did Ministry has program of monitoring various groups for purpose to give them state funding, or JWorg made, fill out the Application Form for this? 

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

But I also never got the impression that any one of them would ever have questioned a doctrine coming from headquarters. I doubt that any would have ever recommended a change to a doctrine. Doctrines were never part of their talks except to highlight how loyal the local brothers always were to any articles about neutrality, etc.

4Jah2me has just reminded us of the mistake Rutherford made about "superior authorities" which was not corrected back to Russell's view until the 1960's. And it made me think that hundreds of brothers, like branch overseers, district overseers, circuit overseers, and elders (whether anointed or not) could easily have known that the teaching was wrong. It seems impossible that any Witness anywhere could read the Bible and not see that this was a mistake. But none of these persons, evidently, had the idea that it would be OK to mention the need to correct this doctrine.

Thanks!

Geoffrey Jackson testimony before ARC in 2015 about, how every (average) JW in the world can, may and want, by individual reading of own Bible to see possible errors made by GB and WT  published doctrines and be disobey or even to give personal Amendment on instruction and doctrine - IS statement FOR secular public ONLY.

Why this particular "inspirational teaching" and "public testimony" never been presented on JW TV as Public Call to Brotherhood for sending Letters to HQ about some issues they have with "spiritual food"? 

9 hours ago, César Chávez said:

What you are claiming here is nothing more than ex-witness propaganda about, Witnesses don’t think for themselves. An error in judgement and an incorrect assumption.

Perhaps some JW's think more and some think less. Nothing is wrong with that. We have different minds and different reactions on "propaganda", mine or WT's. 

JW members put trust in GB who put trust in Jesus who put trust in JHVH and vice versa JHVH put trust in Jesus who put trust in GB and that is reason for every JW's to put trust in GB. Gerrit Lösch made clear propaganda manipulation on JW TV about this. I don't have no need about own judgement because GB member GL made general judgement with own public presentation. He showed how GB are in need to be trusted by members and how members have to be dependable on every "spirit that coming from their mouth" - because Jesus trust them. :)))

You mentioned ARC lawyer. How can you blame Angus Stewart's tactic with G. Jackson and in the same time don't see "tactics and methods" made by GB members in many fields, about religious doctrines and secular, courts issues???   

54 minutes ago, César Chávez said:

Just like the ARC asked Bro Jackson if the Branch Office “seek to obey” the GB, the answer was “first of all” the branches seek to obey God and since the GB are a central body of spiritual men that give spiritual direction, then the assumption is to follow that spiritual direction unless someone can show just cause biblically there is an error in scriptural application.

As we see, it is very well known in JWorg , who can be that "someone" who are "entitled" to show error or give spiritual application, direction and clarification. That is GB.

So, please. G. Jackson showed only "art of conversation" with ARC. But because video of his (or any of GB members and WT lawyers depositions and documentations)  will never be revealed on JW TV, it is very clear who want to have last word in conversation and not want to put words on day light for every JW member to see, to hear. 

Be murdered or be killed ... for victim is the same end. 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

In any organization of any sort, there is always information not meant for general distribution. That does not mean that it is thereby the ‘smoking gun.’

I agree, again.

But why would words that carry Moral and Ethical obligation for all (elders and rank and file members),  ... why there is a need for such selection about "spiritual food" for elders that is not allowed to be read by all other members ("Shepherd book" is what i have in mind at moment)? 

In Croatian we don't have two sort of words as in English (murder vs kill) so i had to help myself a little with few google searching.

murder

noun -  the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

kill

verb - to cause someone or something to die

Question

One from my 5-year-old girl after hearing about Bin Laden: What’s the difference between being murdered and being killed?
Maxine, Kew

Answer

** Definitive **
Name: Laurence, Chiswick
Qualification: Criminal barrister
Answer: If whoever shot and killed him believed they were working in self-defense, then it would be a killing and not murder – and self-defence can be a pre-emptive strike. We’ll obviously never know what his motives were.

Name: Joe, Battersea
Qualification: Not enough
Answer: If you murder somebody, your intention would be solely to kill them. If your intent wasn’t to kill them but you do, then it is not considered murder. Murder is a killing where the intent is proved.
(James O’Brien: You’re right. But this doesn’t answer how the killing of Bin Laden wasn’t murder.)

Name: Michael, Grayshott
Qualification:
Answer: I think it’s a killing We are in a de facto state of war with Al Qaeda. The action in Afghanistan is sanctioned by the UN. The mission would have been to capture or kill Bin Laden.
(James O’Brien: But under the Geneva Convention, you’re not allowed to shoot an unarmed man, are you?)

WHY .... doesn't Jehovah God consider warfare ... murder?

In case of Israel Nation perhaps because of this:

Rules for War

20 “When you go out to battle against your enemies, and you see horses, chariots, and many more people than you have, you must not be afraid of them. The Lord your God is with you—and he brought you out of Egypt.

² “When you go to the battle, the priest must go to the soldiers and speak to them. The priest will say, ‘Men of Israel, listen to me! Today you are going against your enemies in battle. Don’t lose your courage. Don’t be troubled or upset. Don’t be afraid of the enemy. The Lord your God is going with you to help you fight against your enemies. He will help you win!’...............

⁰ “When you go to attack a city, you must first offer peace to the people there.  If they accept your offer and open their gates, all the people in that city will become your slaves and be forced to work for you.  But if the city refuses to make peace with you and fights against you, you should surround the city.  And when the Lord your God lets you take the city, you must kill all the men in it.  But you may take for yourselves the women, the children, the cattle, and everything else in the city. You may use all these things. The Lord your God has given these things to you.  That is what you must do to all the cities that are very far from you—the cities that are not in the land where you will live.

¹⁶ “But when you take cities in the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you must kill everyone.  You must completely destroy all the people—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. The Lord your God has commanded you to do this. 

It can be said how to murder "enemies" who don't want to be your slaves was justified and legalized under Israel Legislative. Israel had Civil Government, and Enemies also had Civil Government. It seems how Israel Government has expanded the term "wrongdoer" not only for own people, but wanted to become Policeman for surrounding nations too .... and to colonized them. 

"To Murder enemies" is concept that existing in mind of God. Prophesied "enmity" in Genesis book must have only one solution: Us or Them. Murder is only option. Winner will interpret this act as "legal". Coexistence is not possible.

In Bible terminology, God created Sovereign Government. But in the same time devil done the same, and God never (in Bible text) negate fact and reality how he also constitute Sovereign Government. If God allowed him to even start something as Rebellion Movement it is interesting how God also allowed him to Legalized  that same Rebellion. Devil has Territory, has Subjects, has Law - and that for sure is fundamental precondition to form Sovereign Government.  

If Final Solution will come someday in the future, perhaps that will be fight between this two Legal and Sovereign Entities. Warriors (on one or both side) who will die in the battle will die with pride for king and homeland :)))

This is just one aspect that first came to my mind after reading Your topic :)) 

20 hours ago, César Chávez said:

In rare instances, one Christian might commit a serious crime against another—such as rape, assault, murder, or major theft. In such cases, it would not be unchristian to report the matter to the authorities, even though doing so might result in a court case or a criminal trial. 2009

"...it would not be unchristian to report the matter to the authorities.."

All people sometimes need advice, support, opinions on some of the things they are facing. It is evident from this segment that the WT Organization has raised generations of members who seeking permission for some activity in their own lives because they do not dare to make decisions on their own, without organization, which perhaps may "embarrass God and his visible organization."
Would it be interesting to find out how that came about? Why can't members exist without their leaders and their instructions, and why can't leaders stop deciding for their members?

20 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

In my ‘defense,’ if that statement is in the Shepherd the Flock book not meant for general distribution, then I would not quote from it even if I had read it. It is a little silly, I know, to avoid what others have already put out there, and I don’t criticize anyone doing it with good motive. But I am still old fashioned that way and inclined to respect ‘confidential talk.’

:))) general distribution

18 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

The admin should come up with a new emoji/response that means you have said some very interesting thought-provoking things, and some of them are obviously right, but that there's enough I disagree with that I don't want to give it a full up-vote.

I am fully agree how only this 7 emoji can't present our reactions on something :))

5 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Jesus is that source of truth, and does not produce bad fruit. We as humans must try to imitate Jesus and follow to the best of our ability. But even a piece of good fruit has flaws when you look at it too closely.

You appear to be interpreting this statement as if it is saying:

(Matthew 5:48) . . .You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

But this is mitigated by another statement from the same Sermon on the Mount:

(Matthew 6:14-15) . . 14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you; 15 whereas if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

If everyone must be perfect, and can never produce bad fruit, then what's the point of asking for forgiveness of of our trespasses?

Human life is made of, at least, two aspects (this is limited view, of course): What we want to do and what we doing. 

About producing: spiritual food  (fruit). If Jesus is Source of truthful spiritual food  that is made, presented and spread TODAY through humans as tools, as agents, as means of transmission, then it would be normal to believe how such "fruit" is (have to be) without blame.

About producing: physical and verbal deeds (fruit). If People are imperfect free will individuals who can't do nothing without errors, than we need to give and ask for forgiveness. 

But because nothing is Black and White and nothing about Organized Religion is clear, we shall never have (i am sort of pesimist) nothing that is flawless. 

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

In my opinion, it only shows that the JWs using the word 'hate', are the ones that feel that way toward anyone that criticises the GB Org etc.

I don't know, of course, what sort of feeling and in what degree, level, is in soul of JW members while obeys commands about not speaking, greeting with ex-JW. Is that hate, animosity, anger, pride ...? But, it is condition, human relation that need to be book written about it.  :))

7 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Like going to a huge banquet/picnic where hundreds of items of great food are available to choose from, but because someone brought some tainted potato salad, they go around screaming that everything has been poisoned.

Because of possibility (proved until now) how some dishes are indeed poisoned on the table with other food, what will be advice, how to give warning to people around the table to not eat specific food?

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Witnesses follow the law—it’s the law that is not written right.

As it is well known, JW's have to follow two sorts of laws. One is Law expressed in Jesus teachings and commands .... and simultaneously , next is Secular law (under "satan" influence, as it is explained and understand by bible scholars). 

Obviously, every law have some moments when paragraphs don't give explanation and guidance how to resolve something. For example, blood ban in Bible talking how eating blood is forbidden, but this law have nothing to say about transfusion and saving life. So, people who want to pleased god, making deep thinking and bring human commands about bible's law. 

Secular law also have same problematic. Life making new challenges and need for new details in law making production of various paragraphs. 

JW's are blessed in all this confusion. When one law don't have clear guideline about something, perhaps another one has ..... and vice versa.

In other words, JW people have no excuse about, because of any sort of shortage in this two kind of Laws, what and how to act in difficult situation.

:))

8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

So what do you do when it is necessary to interact with the legal system of the world? In a world where there is some respect for God, the organization role of elders is what will be recognized as the equivalent of clergy, notwithstanding that elders do it for free. But as the world loses respect for God, then it is the salary that becomes the determining factor—do they make a living with it or not.

Perhaps WT lawyers should go against secular legal laws and system in this issue about terminology and fight for same "privileges" as Christendom Priests, but not to be named as "clergy". And with such act put existing religious hypocrisy on Next Level. :))

19 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

In many court cases world wide, the WTB&T Society has represented, under oath, that all Jehovah's Witnesses are ordained ministers, and are therefore clergy.

... even the newly baptized 8 year old girl, who thinks "clergy" is some kind of nasal congestion.

Yes, and this bring more confusion. JWorg don't have clergy-laity distinction, but have heavenly and earthly class, also have priesthood and not priesthood class, anointed and not anointed class, males as Heads and females as not Heads - BUT all are (male and female) ordained ministers. :))

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Oh dear @TrueTomHarley I quote  " Countless persons are arrested with regard to child sexual abuse. Their religious affiliation or lack of is never reported. 

But then I quote " Unlike virtually anywhere else, where the leaders of an organization are themselves the abusers.." 

Um, Catholic church comes to mind Tom. But Tom you said  "Their religious affiliation or lack of is never reported." .... So if their 'religious affiliation' is never reported, then how come the Catholic church was being reported on long before the JW Org ? 

You noticed this very well. Thanks !

How we would know it is about Catholic priests if news reporters didn't mentioned their religious affiliation? :))

Perhaps Tom thinking about rank and file Catholic members ? But rank and file Catholic are mere "laity". Inside JWorg rank and file members are not "laity" :)))