Srecko Sostar

29 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

I wonder how much of congregants donations were wasted on the restoration of this monstrosity.

But in 1983, the neglected theater was purchased for $1.8 million by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society from Delaware Corporation...........In 1988, the theater, which is on the NJ Registry of Historic Places, underwent an initial renovation phase, but the latest, completed in a nine-month period from 2012-2013, has restored even more value and splendor to the space.....“We are largely self-financed,” said Robert Warren, media consultant for the World Headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses, noting that the project was funded by individual donations from Witnesses across the world. “Whoever wants to build a tower must first count the cost,” he cited biblically, attributing the successful funding to strategic planning. “Rather than start and escalate, we evaluate first.”.....Over two thousand Witness volunteers from across the United States worked together on the large scale project, with work completed through volunteers only with the exception of contractors for only high-risk safety needs.......“We know it is a privilege and we consider it an honor to be here,” Simonsson added.....“We automatically assign a sacredness to the building because of our worship,” said Warren, of Witness Assembly Halls. “Having this space adds to the grandeur of why we are here.”.....

1,8 mill $ for buying. Perhaps value of volunteer working hours and materials is also enormous.  Any suggestion?

1 hour ago, the Sower of Seed said:

What is the solution? Separate the unrepentant selfish from your midst while showing support in helping the victims keep their spiritual relationship with God. This is the primary goal, while we await God's intervention.

I believe how secular system for imprisonment of wrongdoers, and trial process working very similar. Court if found guilty take in consideration many details, also is wrongdoer repentant or not, but in many cases separates wrongdoers from society by putting them to jail or a prison. With limited visits of course - but no shunning policy :))) It seems how they were "inspired" by Bible when made such program.  

4 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

The 12 Apostles were trained by Jesus

Today's "apostles" were not trained by Jesus. Not in literal way and not in some other way. JW leaders claiming how they not receiving "inspirational training" from Jesus. Reading Bible and thinking/mediate about text and prayers are only "training" they have. Imagine this: If real apostles in 1st century failed in many things after/despite training by Jesus, how much more errors can be expected from people who today claiming how they are (only) "guided by holy spirit"? 

4 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

Saul of Tarsus was well trained and excelled because he had a desire to serve and learn.

Saul of Tarsus was highly educated person. Today GB tells (teach) JW members how God and Jesus not need "higher education". Can we assume how Saul was well trained and excellent because of THIS background? And how Jesus had easier task to learned him and not need 3,5 years, because he got more effective mind as highly educated person? Do you suggest how 11 apostles had less desire to serve and learn?

4 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

It really doesn't matter how the 1st GB members were appointed.

It is worrying to hear. In fact, enormously worrying!

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It is entirely a matter of “Is this life all there is”

In individual perspective, this life we have, in this moment, is all we have. 

In case of people who believe in continuation of life in the moment of death, prospect is also life but under several outcomes, that is: paradise, hell and purgatory.

In case of people who believe in future resurrection, as in case of JW members, outcomes have also few variations: to survive, or, and, to be resurrected and if you be enough good to continue with life until you don't do something what deserve death punishment. Next is, not to be resurrected and in such case, this life today is definitely all you have.  

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Battle over contamination at Watchtower site in Warwick ...

Perhaps WT Lawyers forget about congregational rule or they never heard about it: "leave it to God" :)) 

On 1/15/2020 at 5:48 AM, Colin Browne said:

Instead of discussing this matter, will it not be better to leave it to Jehovah

It is possible to take this stand. But that has consequences too. Good? Or bad? If rain coming through roof of the house, will leaving thing to something or someone in the future bring to better or worst condition.

God leave earthly things to be earthly human job. With good and bad outcomes. Bible said something like;    When the sentence for a crime is not quickly carried out, people’s hearts are filled with schemes to do wrong.

This mantra,  platitudes - "live it to god", is not proper answer for many things we faced. For some things in life more time is needed, but not in a sense that JW people using this internal proverb with hope how something will be resolved without doing nothing or without interest and efforts for something. Victim need help in a way and quality and quantity that he/she as individual can manage and receive, in time and with time set by these specific individual.   

6 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

many Bethelites

In Croatia, Bethel workers have also pension and health insurance benefits. Obviously also paid from contributions. 

12 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Perhaps it was a problem in Buffalo, NY they needed to get away from, or perhaps it was a problem in Toronto, Canada that brothers from Buffalo could help with. (This may not make much sense, but if my example were Chile/Argentina, Georgia/Turkey or Zambia/Zimbabwe then it already might seem plausible.)  

I have great respect for you, seriously. And it will stay that way.

But need to go in little relaxed tone, atmosphere and say: This examples are possible, of course. But where, when and to who :))) Perhaps angels have more experience and will manage situations in proper way :)) 

3 minutes ago, Anna said:

I don't think this can be compared to the same level that "clergy" in general are paid. Usually CO's and others in full time service have no means of income (regular job) therefor our contributions help them to carry out their tasks without having to do secular work.

"The average Clergy salary in the United States is $96,800 as of December 26, 2019, but the range typically falls between $79,600 and $109,800".

https://www.salary.com/research/salary/alternate/clergy-salary

 

 

Requires a master's degree.

Few elders in JW church have it. 

15 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Whoops! After coming back to my computer and responding to Arauna, I just notice that I said the same thing as Srecko. Srecko managed to make the same point in 1/10th the number of words.

:)))) I am slow in writing and more slower in English writing. My "weapon" and "tactic" is to be short and concise how much is possible. :)))

Anna, Arauna, TTH bombing me with responds. And i am alone, sole  :))) 

Your comment helps to redirect their thinking. Now you will be "target". :))

16 minutes ago, Anna said:

We don't use those words as titles. Only as descriptions of the tasks the brother or sister does.

When in preaching service people ask you: "Do you have clergy"? You immediately respond with, "We DON'T have clergy, we have Elders. 

@TrueTomHarley  Everybody knows it. It’s nothing more than common sense. Regardless of what elders are called, they come closest to fitting the role lawmakers have in mind for ‘clergy.’

If every JW knows this why they in preaching service respond with: "NO, we have Elders"????

8 minutes ago, Anna said:

The separation of the clergy from the laity is common to many religions, but is the arrangement from God, or is it a human tradition? More important, does it have God’s approval?

8 minutes ago, Anna said:

“All You Are Brothers”

Perhaps some day WT Society will stop using nomenclature as, GB member, Helper, CO, Elder, MS, Pioneer etc. because one word covers all , Brother (and Sister too :)))))

Article you used is going further, speaking about distinction. We are not starting with this subject but with terminology. I suggest we stop on terminology and not talking about inside classes and distinction. Ok?

2 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Christen-dom.  These people have ruled in the past  (the dom stands for 'domain' . They have gone to war - think of crusades, inquisition, Cromwell's puritan civil war, ...too many to mention. This is why the word has a bad connotation.

Israel Priesthood also supported bad things. Why i am not surprised how same happened to Christen-dom.

12 minutes ago, Anna said:

semantics.

Aspects of meaning or semantics. 

JW people, or better to say, JW leaders, with time, from past, gave specific meaning to word "clergy". And thus created new culture inside own church. Inside JW circle word "clergy" has bad connotation. Because, as word "Christendom" too, it is always about, those other people, those other churches, those other religions.

Merriam Webster explain word clergy:  a group ordained to perform pastoral or sacerdotal functions in a Christian church

1 minute ago, JW Insider said:

This can still be true of times of great persecution which we can also expect to come up suddenly, as if without warning. (Although in cases like this, brothers in many lands can look for signs that might help them predict or prepare.) Everyone should be happy that the GB are thinking about support structures to try to help all of us get through hard times that are expected. We should be willing to consider that instructions coming from a central monitoring location can be very valuable. The Governing Body have collected experiences from Germany in the WWII era, and from many countries around the world since then. As long as we aren't accepting their words as definite indications that the end is imminently upon us, there is no reason to just reject instructions from those who want to look out for the whole association of brothers.

I have nothing against advices or instructions that can be helpful. 

You speaking about preparations, experience that GB collected from past till now. You mentioned central monitoring location. What is Warwick, sort of Pentagon? Drones, satelites, spies, central intelligence "guided by spirit"? How can human experience, GB experience be helpful for Armageddon? 

For some local wars, disasters and similar turbulence they can have some experience and good preparation. But JW people expecting Armageddon, and all WT efforts are to prepare JW people for Armageddon. Kingdom will destroy all that opposes God. This is message in publication? Or not any more?

1 minute ago, JW Insider said:

What would be wrong, then, with just admitting that elders also come closest to fitting the role that nearly everyone, including most JWs, have in mind for clergy? It's a little bit like the word rapture, where many people have a wrong connotation of what all is implied with the word, so that we don't use it specifically for the Greek word "harpazo." But we still, according to the latest WT on the subject, believe in the "rapture" part of the word "rapture." To most people, clergy, refers to those who teach and take the lead in religious services, including those who "shepherd" the flock, take confessions, etc. Nothing to see here as far as I'm concerned.

This doesn't mean, of course, that we shouldn't also distinguish our use of terms from wrong connotations that these terms imply to others.

Some religious people love their clergy. Some not so much.

Some non-religious people have same feelings.

JW people not loving any clergy but only own clergy.

Problem will be solved if WT publication start to teaching own members about "connotations".... wrong one and positive one. :)))

4 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Everybody knows it. It’s nothing more than common sense. Regardless of what elders are called, they come closest to fitting the role lawmakers have in mind for ‘clergy.’

Huh Tom!

Wife went to evening cong. meeting now. How about to asking her about this what all JW's know when she comes back? :)))

Oh ,no i can't expect she would tell me anything, because she are not allowed to talk with me about congregational, spiritual things. Ohh, what a pity!!

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

And that's because Jesus warned us that the end would come at a time when it would surprise us. A thief does not give a sign or warning before breaking into a house, therefore we would expect no sign or advance warning.

I can agree. But GB wouldn't. :))

They wrote in WT study edition how JW members  need to be ready to listen/obey any instructions from GB to elders channels, because that will save their lives.

Elders who are reading this article can draw some useful conclusions from the account we have just considered: (1) The most practical step that we can take to prepare for the coming attack of “the Assyrian” is that of strengthening our faith in God and helping our brothers to do the same. (2) When “the Assyrian” attacks, the elders must be absolutely convinced that Jehovah will deliver us. (3) At that time, the life-saving direction that we receive from Jehovah’s organization may not appear practical from a human standpoint. All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or human standpoint or not. (4) Now is the time for any who may be putting their trust in secular education, material things, or human institutions to adjust their thinking. The elders must stand ready to help any who may now be wavering in their faith. -https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/pl/r1/lp-e?q=w13 11%2F15 20

2 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

This formulation is the same as most businesses on Earth. You start at the bottom and work your way up,

Thanks for respond.

What you described is concised also in wording you offer: "is the same as most businesses on Earth".

Some examples from Bible give us another way how some individuals going to gain responsible positions.

Young David was walking with sheeps and other domestic animals. Living simple life with no preparation for ruling over nation Israel as a King. But his youth had some need to prove himself and to his brothers and father, as mature and strong and brave. In one moment Samuel anointed David to be KIng. Just in a second. Nothing about going from bottom and then work his way up. :)))))

Saul of Tarsus have some period about learning, but he didn't learned how to be apostle and member of Jerusalem GB. If GB in Jerusalem existed at all??!!  He was chosen by Jesus as 11 before him. :)))

Please, who had chosen GB in 1971? God? Jesus? Someone?

24 minutes ago, Anna said:

What I was trying to say before is that when it comes to secularism, we accept the designation "clergy" for our elders,

Dear Anna. 

Majority of  JW  members don't know nothing about such "designation" for their congregational elders. In fact i believe how such knowledge will stumble many of your people. Few of you who participate here and read Court documents knowing these things. Your bro/sis living in blessed ignorance about this.

It would be proper to say how few of you, few JW people here, "accepting" such terminology, but only for pro et contra conversations we making here. :)) Yours inner feelings for justice and ethic and truth NOT want, NOT wish, CAN'T accept this mixing of "holy things" and "secular (false religion) things" about leveling/equalization JW elders with Catholic clergy. But you are forced to do this because of loyalty to WTJWorg and "argumentation". 

51 minutes ago, Arauna said:

The 1000 years is called a day of judgment is it not? 

Out of topic, but just for fun. Revelation is very symbolic book. 1000 years can be also 24 human hours and can be millions of human years too. 

52 minutes ago, Arauna said:

In a secular court - we accept judgment - even if a mistake was made. We accept that human judgment is not perfect and then try to fight the verdict through legal channels.

53 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Jehovah sees everything and he will compensate in future when His system arrives - in the end there will be true justice for all.

This two quote contradict itself. Question is: Why WT Lawyers not waiting for God's Justice ... in the future?

10 hours ago, Arauna said:

That is your personal opinion..... the bible gives us instructions on what the role of elders are and we try to follow these instructions.

From the Christian congregation's point of view, the worldly definition of clergy does apply to the elders.

This is what  @Anna said, not me. :))

2 minutes ago, Arauna said:

That is your personal opinion..... the bible gives us instructions on what the role of elders are and we try to follow these instructions.

No problem, don't worry, I understand you. We just comment Montana situation :))

31 minutes ago, Anna said:

Its simple. From a worldly point of view the elders are clergy. From the Christian congregation's point of view, the worldly definition of clergy does apply to the elders. However, outside of a worldly situation (meaning a worldly situation like a court setting) a member of the Christian congregation will not view the elders as clergy, because they are not applying the worldly point of view.  No deceit or lying there.

From a worldly point of view the elders are clergy. From the Christian congregation's point of view, the worldly definition of clergy does apply to the elders.

Than, result is the same: JW elders are clergy, priesthood.

However, outside of a worldly situation (meaning a worldly situation like a court setting) a member of the Christian congregation will not view the elders as clergy, because they are not applying the worldly point of view.

Is it doing bad to children (or CSA)?:

-worldly situation or

-situation inside JW congregation or

-worldly situation inside JW situation who operate inside worldly system situation?  

Where, to Whom Courts belong? To worldly situation only? To satan, because he is god of this World?

Courts belongs in Bible situation. They are God's Servants, and not devil's Servants (your Bible said so, your interpretation of Romans said so too). Bible situation says how all people (Christian congregants too)  belong to Secular Authorities who making decisions who is who. In Montana situation JW elders prayed, asked Court to give them distinctive title - clergy, priesthood. Obviously they asked Court to give them something that God "failed" to give it to them.  :)))

39 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It’s called updating

Me too doing this. For example, puting new colors on old walls. Driving 20 years old car, but not thinking twice when car mechanic man say, this or that must be changed, replaced. IT's called updating ! :)))

 And no one blame me (except myself) for not having more brain on question: how to  build new passive house with green roof and how to buy electric car, even second hand ?!

50 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Question: What are you going to do with that insurance money?

How about some investments? :))) through Henrietta Riley Trust?

3 hours ago, the Sower of Seed said:

they just have been giving opportunity to direct the organization

How came to that, that they just found themselves to be in this opportunity?

This formulation say how they had no "qualifications", but JUST had been GIVING opportunity to direct.

Who gave them (GB) this opportunity from 1971 on ? WT Society Administration? Or God? Or mutual effort of human and spirit (similar to what was described in Acts, ..."we and holy spirit decided to ....") ?    

8 hours ago, Arauna said:

By secular laws - by worldly laws - they can be classified as clergy.   By Jehovahs laws-  definitely not. 

Please start to understand that we live in the world - we cannot go out of the world.... so worldly laws apply to us when we go to court.   In court they will apply the law in this traditional way. 

Very good response from long term JW member. And very dissonante response!! 

From now on, because JW members obey secular laws (and because of agreements that WT Society and Courts made) in everything that not oppose to God's law, have to consider how to accept new terminology and to explain in publications and in field service when people ask about hierarchy inside Organization. 

It will be very interesting to see what would be reaction of new interested persons when congregants tell them, how JW Church elders are clergy only in Court cases against them, but in everyday life all are brothers. :))

WT Society giving few claims, few interpretations  about one standard: God is above all

1) obey God's commandments

2) obey secular law

3) obey God's commandments above secular law

4) obey secular law in everything that not contradict and opposing to God's commandments

5) obey Secular authority and God's authority when they work together and making compromise

I am very interested to see how and when  this "new clarification" (in your's or some other formulation) will see daylight in WT publications and on JW meetings. :))

12 hours ago, Anna said:

If anyone is interested in reading the actual transcript of the Supreme Court's decision, here is the link:

https://law.justia.com/cases/montana/supreme-court/2020/da-19-0077-0.html

So you can decide whether Jehovah's Witnesses lied to the Montana court about confidentiality. Remarks and comments are welcome (at least welcomed by me 😀)

Supreme Court of Montana - Reversal, January 8 2020

I chose few paragraphs, and some accentuation.

The parties agree that elders are “clergy” under Montana law.

Relevant here, § 41-3-201(6)(c), MCA, provides: “A member of the clergy or a priest is not required to make a report under this section if the communication is required to be confidential by canon law, church doctrine, or established church practice.” ¶12 Jehovah’s Witnesses contend they are excepted from the general mandatory reporting statute pursuant to § 41-3-201(6)(c), MCA.

¶30 Jehovah’s Witnesses point out that imposing a narrow definition of confidentiality impermissibly could discriminate between different religious beliefs and practices, protecting confidentiality of reports made in a confession from a parishioner to priest, like the traditional Catholic practice, while offering no protection to a congregant’s disclosures to a committee of elders using a process like that followed by the Jehovah’s Witnesses. “It is the duty of courts, if possible, to construe statutes in a manner that avoids unconstitutional interpretation.” State v. Mathis, 2003 MT 112, ¶ 8, 315 Mont. 378, 68 P.3d 756 (citation omitted)

¶33 We hold accordingly that the undisputed material facts in the summary judgment record demonstrate as a matter of law that Jehovah’s Witnesses were not mandatory reporters under § 41-3-201, MCA, in this case because their church doctrine, canon, or practice required that clergy keep reports of child abuse confidential, thus entitling the Defendants to the exception of § 41-3-201(6)(c), MCA

We can reverse now something else: Did WT Society and all included in spreading "spiritual truths and doctrines" lied to general public and JW members by claiming how JW congregations have not clergy, priesthood class and how elders in congregations are not clergy, priesthood?

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

How, exactly, does $20 million for the plaintiff repair her trauma?

How, exactly, does $10 million for the lawyer repair that victim’s trauma?

The world is very eager to punish with regard to child sexual abuse, but does it actually do anything to prevent it? 

I believe how money can't REPAIR the Trauma.

Money can do other things, other sorts of help for victim.