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Srecko Sostar

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  1. Downvote
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from Dmitar in KING OF THE NORTH - MAY BROADCAST   
    Are these publicly known allies or should secret allies and those who are yet to become their allies be involved? GB know anything about that?
    In their study article GB 9 times mentioned phrase Russia and its allies. But they never named those allies.
     
    STUDY ARTICLE 20
    Who Is “the King of the North” Today? - https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/watchtower-study-may-2020/Who-Is-the-King-of-the-North-Today/
  2. Downvote
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from Dmitar in KING OF THE NORTH - MAY BROADCAST   
    Supremacy is gained through information management and propaganda. Electronic media and video production fulfill this purpose nowadays.
  3. Downvote
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from Dmitar in KING OF THE NORTH - MAY BROADCAST   
    WTJWorg leaders from past, till today, showed a great desire for the "end of the world" to come in 1914, 1925, 1941, 1975, by the end of the 20th century, by the end of the overlapping generation" ... and, if we live long enough, we will still hear their new predictions in some new or changed format.
  4. Downvote
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from Dmitar in The Good News of God's Kingdom...   
    This verse is also useful to show how funny, how ridiculous it sounds when JW literature talks about “cleansing within an organization” in some specific time periods that were a turning point for the WTJWorg Administration.
  5. Downvote
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from Dmitar in The Good News of God's Kingdom...   
    Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one!  Job 14:4
    What experience does God have with an organized form of religion? For centuries, the Israeli congregation struggled in conditions that eventually ended with two destructions of the Temple, prophesied by God, and perhaps, to put it this way, caused by God. Further, The First Christian Assembly was diluted into various denominations of Christianity. Also, the current WTJWorg organization, which is claimed to be the only true successor to the First Christian Assembly, is grappling with doctrinal and instructional-organizational lies and errors.
    I would say this way: God does not fix what is wrong, but always seeks a new solution to every new problem.
  6. Thanks
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from Kick_Faceinator in The Good News of God's Kingdom...   
    Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one!  Job 14:4
    What experience does God have with an organized form of religion? For centuries, the Israeli congregation struggled in conditions that eventually ended with two destructions of the Temple, prophesied by God, and perhaps, to put it this way, caused by God. Further, The First Christian Assembly was diluted into various denominations of Christianity. Also, the current WTJWorg organization, which is claimed to be the only true successor to the First Christian Assembly, is grappling with doctrinal and instructional-organizational lies and errors.
    I would say this way: God does not fix what is wrong, but always seeks a new solution to every new problem.
  7. Haha
    Srecko Sostar reacted to Pudgy in The Good News of God's Kingdom...   
    I guess a good way to know is by being able to count how many outside people show up at the ZOOM meetings.
    I have noticed more “regulars” are showing up with sharper webcams, and green screens, or virtual backgrounds.
    I do wish they would adjust the camera angles so as not to emphasize neck waddles and nose hair. 
  8. Thanks
    Srecko Sostar reacted to Patiently waiting for Truth in The Good News of God's Kingdom...   
    I think it's a few years away yet. God or Jesus Christ has to either cleanse the JW Org or form a new 'Association of Brothers'.   
    To cleanse the JW Org the CSA  problem would need completely removing, and it's not enough just to do that, but it has to 'be seen to be done'.  The public would have to KNOW that the JW Org had God's approval. '10 men clinging to the skirt of a JEW' The GB would have to hand over that Pedophile Database which they are pretending doesn't exist. Then ALL the pedophiles in the Org would have to face their crimes, probably in court rooms. 
    Yes it would take God's Holy Spirit to cleanse the JW Org or to form a new Association of Brother, but it has to be done to give people a chance of 'coming to know God properly' before the Judgement. 
    JWs cannot grasp that people know about the CSA / Pedophile problem in the JW Org, and it is a BIG STUMBLING BLOCK  to people. So, the GB and their 'helpers' are blood guilty because they have created this stumbling block.
    Luke 17 : 1, Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come.
  9. Downvote
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from Dmitar in The Good News of God's Kingdom...   
    Another prophecy/chronology/dateology from JW members? I guess you have some date in mind when that "final" message will be delivered to people.
  10. Like
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from Kick_Faceinator in The Good News of God's Kingdom...   
    Another prophecy/chronology/dateology from JW members? I guess you have some date in mind when that "final" message will be delivered to people.
  11. Like
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from Kick_Faceinator in Charles Taze Russell: Dates, Expectations, Predictions, Apologies, Response, Relevance   
    Wine and spirits can be a cure for tired hearts and life worries. Contributes to a cheerful mood. But it also has side effects.  
  12. Upvote
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from Arauna in Charles Taze Russell: Dates, Expectations, Predictions, Apologies, Response, Relevance   
    Wine and spirits can be a cure for tired hearts and life worries. Contributes to a cheerful mood. But it also has side effects.  
  13. Like
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from Kick_Faceinator in Charles Taze Russell: Dates, Expectations, Predictions, Apologies, Response, Relevance   
    Article as this one on JWorg librray https://www.jw.org/hr/biblioteka/casopisi/g201412/psihicki-poremecaji/  not supporting any of your ideas presented in statement you offer. Your flat statement is an expression of the impotence of argumentation against ex JW. It is also evidence of an attack on the personality of forum participants. TTH has the same habits.
    "Hundreds of millions of people around the world suffer from mental disorders, and this significantly affects the lives of their loved ones. Every fourth person at some point in their life has a mental disorder or a mental illness. Globally, depression is one of the leading causes of work disability. Schizophrenia and bipolar disorder are among the most serious mental illnesses that greatly impair a person’s quality of life. (...) Despite the huge number of patients, mental disorders are still hidden and neglected, and society looks down on discriminated persons and discriminates against them ”(World Health Organization).
    Mental illness can affect anyone, regardless of gender, age, nationality, race, culture, religion, level of education or financial status. Mental disorders are not the result of any human weakness or character defect.
    Mental health professionals today successfully treat many mental disorders. Therefore, it is important that the sick person first goes for a psychiatric examination to a top doctor who has experience in treating mental illness. (not to JW elders and person who making conclusions like Arauna)
    Although the Bible is not a medical manual, it contains wise counsel that can help us cope with painful emotions and unpleasant life situations. (Bible not support idea how God will punish you with or allow that person be affected by mental illness if decide to stop be a member of WTJWorg) 
    Defending your religious beliefs that are based on the Organization is one thing. And to declare "insane " those who have abandoned the religious beliefs of WTJWorg is proof of a lack of arguments and a lack of skill in dealing with the opposite.  
     
     
  14. Thanks
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from Patiently waiting for Truth in Charles Taze Russell: Dates, Expectations, Predictions, Apologies, Response, Relevance   
    Article as this one on JWorg librray https://www.jw.org/hr/biblioteka/casopisi/g201412/psihicki-poremecaji/  not supporting any of your ideas presented in statement you offer. Your flat statement is an expression of the impotence of argumentation against ex JW. It is also evidence of an attack on the personality of forum participants. TTH has the same habits.
    "Hundreds of millions of people around the world suffer from mental disorders, and this significantly affects the lives of their loved ones. Every fourth person at some point in their life has a mental disorder or a mental illness. Globally, depression is one of the leading causes of work disability. Schizophrenia and bipolar disorder are among the most serious mental illnesses that greatly impair a person’s quality of life. (...) Despite the huge number of patients, mental disorders are still hidden and neglected, and society looks down on discriminated persons and discriminates against them ”(World Health Organization).
    Mental illness can affect anyone, regardless of gender, age, nationality, race, culture, religion, level of education or financial status. Mental disorders are not the result of any human weakness or character defect.
    Mental health professionals today successfully treat many mental disorders. Therefore, it is important that the sick person first goes for a psychiatric examination to a top doctor who has experience in treating mental illness. (not to JW elders and person who making conclusions like Arauna)
    Although the Bible is not a medical manual, it contains wise counsel that can help us cope with painful emotions and unpleasant life situations. (Bible not support idea how God will punish you with or allow that person be affected by mental illness if decide to stop be a member of WTJWorg) 
    Defending your religious beliefs that are based on the Organization is one thing. And to declare "insane " those who have abandoned the religious beliefs of WTJWorg is proof of a lack of arguments and a lack of skill in dealing with the opposite.  
     
     
  15. Like
    Srecko Sostar reacted to Patiently waiting for Truth in Matthew 13 Wheat and weeds, and, when and where is the Kingdom ?   
    Matthew 9 : 37 & 38
     Then he said to his disciples: “Yes, the harvest is great, but the workers are few. 38  Therefore, beg the Master of the harvest to send out workers into his harvest.”
    is and are, are present tense, so is this the same harvest mentioned in both scriptures ?
    It would seem that the harvesting work started whilst Jesus was still here on Earth with his disciples. Does that mean that 'the conclusion of the system' also started at that same time ?
    Also, John 10 : 16
    16  “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold, those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.
    Does this mean that Jesus had also started gathering people that were not going to be anointed ones ? Was Jesus also harvesting the 'non-anointed' whilst he was on Earth ? 
     
  16. Like
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from Witness in Charles Taze Russell: Dates, Expectations, Predictions, Apologies, Response, Relevance   
    Article as this one on JWorg librray https://www.jw.org/hr/biblioteka/casopisi/g201412/psihicki-poremecaji/  not supporting any of your ideas presented in statement you offer. Your flat statement is an expression of the impotence of argumentation against ex JW. It is also evidence of an attack on the personality of forum participants. TTH has the same habits.
    "Hundreds of millions of people around the world suffer from mental disorders, and this significantly affects the lives of their loved ones. Every fourth person at some point in their life has a mental disorder or a mental illness. Globally, depression is one of the leading causes of work disability. Schizophrenia and bipolar disorder are among the most serious mental illnesses that greatly impair a person’s quality of life. (...) Despite the huge number of patients, mental disorders are still hidden and neglected, and society looks down on discriminated persons and discriminates against them ”(World Health Organization).
    Mental illness can affect anyone, regardless of gender, age, nationality, race, culture, religion, level of education or financial status. Mental disorders are not the result of any human weakness or character defect.
    Mental health professionals today successfully treat many mental disorders. Therefore, it is important that the sick person first goes for a psychiatric examination to a top doctor who has experience in treating mental illness. (not to JW elders and person who making conclusions like Arauna)
    Although the Bible is not a medical manual, it contains wise counsel that can help us cope with painful emotions and unpleasant life situations. (Bible not support idea how God will punish you with or allow that person be affected by mental illness if decide to stop be a member of WTJWorg) 
    Defending your religious beliefs that are based on the Organization is one thing. And to declare "insane " those who have abandoned the religious beliefs of WTJWorg is proof of a lack of arguments and a lack of skill in dealing with the opposite.  
     
     
  17. Upvote
    Srecko Sostar reacted to Witness in Charles Taze Russell: Dates, Expectations, Predictions, Apologies, Response, Relevance   
    W1952 10/1 p. 602
    “Christendom’s lofty looks, boastful words, bragging tongue, her superior attitude toward the holy Word of God, her trust in idols and men and riches, such as belong to this world, will not provide her with security or any safety from Jehovah’s storm and blast.” 
    PURE WORSHIP OF JEHOVAH—RESTORED AT LAST!
    “Is Christendom the Antitypical Jerusalem?”
    “In the past, our literature has referred to Christendom as the antitype of apostate Jerusalem. The conditions in unfaithful Jerusalem—including idolatry and widespread corruption—certainly remind us of what is happening in Christendom. However, in recent years our publications, including the one you are now reading, have not taken the type-antitype approach to prophecy except where the Bible provides a clear basis for doing so. Is there a solid Scriptural basis for referring to Christendom as the antitypical Jerusalem? No.”
    Since the scriptures reveal that in the last days, it is God’s holy people who are captivated and conquered by idolatry and false teachings, we can then amend Wt’s comment made in the 1952 article from above:    (Mark 13:19-23; Rev 13:7,8,10; Luke 21:24; Rev 11:2; )
    "Christendom’s  The Wt. organization’s lofty looks, boastful words, bragging tongue, her superior attitude toward the holy Word of God, her trust in idols and men and riches, such as belong to this world, will not provide her with security or any safety from Jehovah’s storm and blast." 
    It goes on to say,
    "Beautiful in elevation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.” (Ps 48:1,2) God’s organization is marvelous and supremely beautiful and the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ is the hope of all peoples.—Ps 48:12,13."
    Mount Zion– the holy city “built” with “living stones” and Jesus as its chief cornerstone.  (Eph 2:20-22; Heb 12:22) It is not stationary, but a mobile spiritual tabernacle, that will "come down out of heaven" to be with mankind.  (Rev 15:5; 21:1-3)  
    So you see, JWs.  Your own earlier pages of “spiritual food”, are not giving praise to the Wt organization,  but to heavenly Mount Zion where God’s Spirit dwells – in the hearts of the faithful, sealed, anointed “144,000”. 
    Do you dare curse the anointed priests that God has chosen to do His will as happens continually on this forum? (Isa 43:10; 44:8; 1 Pet 2:5,9) Do you dare shun these anointed who reside with you, and give praise and glory to men not anointed (elders) instead, who have removed their priestly duties and ended their “daily sacrifices”? (Dan 8:11; 11:31)
    Do you dare support the trampling of these Temple priests by glorifying an earthly organization that cannot be denied as full of sin?
    (Matt 24:15,16; Mark 13:14;  2 Thess 2:1-4; Rev 11:1-3)
     
     
  18. Upvote
    Srecko Sostar reacted to Witness in Charles Taze Russell: Dates, Expectations, Predictions, Apologies, Response, Relevance   
    There is one Rock, one Fortress - the Almighty God and His Son, who works alongside Him.  (Ps 18:2)  They together, are the only Rock that we are admonished  to put faith in. (Col 2:9)  So far, I don't see many on this forum who have left the organization, not accepting this fact.  
    To say that leaving the congregation/organization of JWs equates to leaving "Jehovah", shows a spiritual, mental gap, a lack of spiritual knowledge to have reached one's heart.  And that gap is quite large.  This creates both mental and spiritual instability - mental and spiritual "health problems", that can lead to one's downfall.  (Matt 7:24-27)
     Without using God's Word to support a claim that leaving the Wt. is the same as leaving God, shows the accusation up as a falsehood.  If a JW cannot make the distinction, the clear dividing line between God and an earthly, worldly corporation, then that JW and their comrades included, are idolaters.  (Col 2:8)  It is hypocrisy to say that God has chosen their organization over any other religious organization, when all are dependent on the same  resources that the world offers, to make their organization live and grow.  
    To project that the organization of men is a "fortress", and belongs to God, is blasphemy.  And yes, the governing leaders do expect that what they have built, be upheld as "divine". (Rev 13:15)  
     It defies the only Temple/fortress God has sanctioned with His Holy Spirit.  (1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16; Eph 2:20-22; Rev 5:9,10; Rev 21:22-27) 
    Only one, will be blessed and "inhabited" by God in His Kingdom.  (2 Cor 6:16; Gal 4:26; Rev 21:2-4)
    Any who leave the Wt are "apostates" according to the doctrine of men, not according to God's Word.  
    Jer 17:5  This is what the LORD says: Cursed is the person who trusts in mankind. He makes human flesh his strength, and his heart turns from the LORD.
     
     
  19. Thanks
    Srecko Sostar reacted to Patiently waiting for Truth in Child Abuse Records Reveal Extensive Data Collection by Jehovah’s Witnesses   
    For those that may think the CSA problem in the JW Org has been 'put to bed'. It hasn't.  
    https://jwwatch.org/child-abuse-2/child-abuse-records-reveal-extensive-data-collection-by-jehovahs-witnesses
    Attorneys representing Alexis Nunez have filed a motion to compel the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York to turn over at least 10 pages of detailed database records involving abuser Max Reyes and three of his victims, including plaintiff Nunez.
    According to documents tendered to the Sanders County Montana Court, Watchtower attorney Joel Taylor emailed three of the ten pages in question to the Nunez team on the eve of the final day of the 2018 trial held in Thompson Falls Montana. Taylor purportedly presented the sensitive documents as part of his strategy for closing arguments the next day.
    The three pages in question have now been released in court filings, but attorneys for Nunez are demanding the entire 10-page dossier.
    The database pages reveal the shocking extent of Watchtower’s internal child abuse investigations, including the disclosure that Watchtower Legal Department directors register whether or not victims of child abuse are “willing participants” in their own sexual abuse.

    The documents combine notes taken by Jehovah’s Witness elders with answers to questions posed by the Watchtower Legal Department in New York, blended with additional data used by the Witnesses’ Service Department to determine how abusers and victims should be managed inside the congregation.
    Minor victims designated as “willing participants” are treated as adults and subjected to judicial hearings and disfellowshipping.
    -------------------------------------------
    Why Demand the CM Database Pages?
    As the Watchtower Organization continues to collect vast amounts of data related to sexual crimes, criminals, and victims, survivors are demanding answers for why this information is held by a religious institution and not promptly turned over to the relevant authorities.
    Jehovah’s Witnesses currently subscribe to a policy where local elders are prevented from reporting child abuse unless the parent corporation Watchtower is unable to find a legal exception to the reporting requirement. The Church’s Legal Department has taken the position that what’s good enough for the Catholic Church is good enough for Jehovah’s Witnesses. The Witnesses believe they can project the Catholic confessional model upon all communications between members and their elders, regardless of whether the communications occurred in a confessional setting.
    The Catholic model was originally set up to protect communications between a single confessor and his priest, but the Jehovah’s Witnesses expand the definition of protected communications to include their entire body of elders and all conversations with anyone involved in alleged wrongdoing.
    In addition to the clergy-penitent confidentiality claims argued by the Witnesses, attorney-client privilege has become a decisive factor and key reason why Witness elders are instructed to promptly call Watchtower’s Legal Department when they learn of child abuse allegations – instead of calling the police.
    Watchtower Plays Semantics
    Despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, the Watchtower organization continues to deny that it maintains a database of child molesters and victims by arguing over the very definition of the word “database.”
    On February 4th 2021, plaintiff Nunez ordered the discovery of multiple documents from Watchtower files, including a description of the “CM Database.”
    The Jehovah’s Witness legal department responded by declaring that the documents demanded are not part of any kind of database, and that labeling it a database is a mischaracterization of the facts. Court records disclose Watchtower’s responses to the requests:
    “INTERROGATORY NO. 1:
    Describe the CM database by providing the following information. What is the name or designation the JW Defendants give to the database?
    Generally describe the information contained in the database.
    When was the database created?
    -----------------------------------------

    ANSWER: [from Watchtower] Defendants object to this request because it is vague and ambiguous in that the term “CM database” is defined by a mischaracterization of what the documents attached as Exhibit A are: entries from the Watchtower Legal Department’ s electronic telephone record keeping system reflecting privileged communications with clients. Defendants further object to this interrogatory on the grounds that it is not reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery of admissible information.”
    It is difficult to imagine that the Court will not see past the semantics game played by Watchtower, given the awareness that the information collected by this “electronic telephonic record keeping system” is shared with the Service Department of Watchtower. The Service Department of Jehovah’s Witnesses maintains a “Hub” database of Jehovah’s Witness information that is designed to consolidate member data for more than 8 million adherents, known as “publishers.” That information contains extensive personal information about each member, including internal judicial documents such as the S-77 Notice of Disfellowshipping or Disassociation.
     

    Jehovah’s Witness Data Collection, where Publisher Identification is incorporated into the HuB Database. Image: leaked Watchtower video.
     
    In 2017, sensitive documents and videos were leaked from inside Watchtower headquarters, revealing the extent of their data collection schemes. A program called HuB (Headquarters-unity-Branch) was announced as the replacement for their preceding global database and management system known as “Admin.”
    Also announced was the “Records Management” system for maintaining vast amounts of organizational data in a centralized database. Old paper records were scanned into this new system using highly sophisticated equipment and character-recognition software, further enhancing the Organization’s ability to track every aspect of the Witnesses’ corporate empire, including sensitive personal data.
    Judge Elizabeth Best now presides over the Montana case and will rule whether or not Watchtower will be compelled to turn over the 7 pages of data in question. The release of those documents may well have an adverse impact on the Jehovah’s Witness defense.
    The trial date has been set for September, 2022.   So it continues. 
  20. Upvote
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from Witness in JW Core Beliefs .... As Applied   
    Does this exposition on the definitions of some words, mean that it is (not) quite normal for JW members to so readily accept the changed definitions in so many GB teachings, which have taken on new meanings in relation to the original ones? Because you say yourself: One way is simply refuse to accept it.
  21. Like
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from Kick_Faceinator in Charles Taze Russell: Dates, Expectations, Predictions, Apologies, Response, Relevance   
    I am asking for arguments for the claim and statistics that support your claim.
  22. Upvote
    Srecko Sostar got a reaction from Patiently waiting for Truth in Charles Taze Russell: Dates, Expectations, Predictions, Apologies, Response, Relevance   
    I am asking for arguments for the claim and statistics that support your claim.
  23. Thanks
    Srecko Sostar reacted to Patiently waiting for Truth in SPAIN. The Jehovah's Witnesses in Spain have filed a lawsuit in the Torrejón de Ardoz court (Madrid) against the Spanish Association of Victims of Jehovah's Witnesses.   
    https://www.vozpopuli.com/espana/testigos-jehova-denuncian-disidentes.html
    It seems that JWs in Spain are trying to BAN a Spanish Association of Victims of CSA.
    The Jehovah's Witnesses in Spain have filed a lawsuit in the Torrejón de Ardoz court (Madrid) against the Spanish Association of Victims of Jehovah's Witnesses. According to the lawsuit to which Vozpópuli has had access , they consider that the mere existence of the association undermines their honor by calling themselves "victims" of this religious cult.
     
    In their lawsuit, they ask the courts to declare "illegitimate interference" of this association as well as the specific people sued individually, in the "right to the honor of religious confession." They also ask for the "elimination" and "extinction" not only of the name of the entity, registered in the National Registry of Associations in February 2020, but also of its social media accounts and its website.
    The religious confession, headquartered in the Madrid town of Ajalvir, considers that the new association makes an "illegitimate exercise of freedom of expression and information" by publicly denouncing the alleged cases of abuse and aggression suffered within the religious cult.
     
    "They want to silence us"
    The secretary of the Association, Enrique Carmona, explains at the request of this medium that Jehovah's Witnesses "want to silence our public message" and that their association aims to seek justice and bring together all those people who have abandoned the cult for the alleged malpractice .
    The defense lawyer of the Association, Carlos Bardavío , is willing to pull the blanket to uncover possible cases covered up by the congregation. It will request the practice of statements in court of many witnesses and will provide documentary evidence to "prove" that within the organization there have been many suicide attempts, cases of ostracism and anxiety about some of the practices that have been carried out. out from some of these congregations.
    Please note that this is translated from Spanish so word for word might not be perfect. 
    But i think it gives the general idea of what the Spanish 'branch' of Jehovah's Witnesses are trying to do. 
    JW Org working in complete opposition to the words of Jesus Christ. 
  24. Like
    Srecko Sostar reacted to Patiently waiting for Truth in JW Core Beliefs .... As Applied   
    Matthew 9 : 13
    Berean Study Bible
    But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
  25. Like
    Srecko Sostar reacted to Witness in How would solid, controvertible evidence of Extraterrestrial Aliens affect your Theology?   
    Yes, and there doesn’t have to be a contradiction to the scientific understanding of stars, if Mr. Flodin understood the spiritual meaning of the stars in the scriptures.  He used,
    Neh 9:6- You alone are the Lord. You made the heavens, even the highest heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the multitudes of heaven worship you.
    He said it referred the multitudes as the holy angels of God.  Well, angels are messengers. (Greek meaning) God’s messengers of the New Covenant under Jesus Christ, are the anointed. (Mal 2:7; Heb 1:14)  This can refer to those sealed symbolic “144,000” "angels" who are of “heaven”.
    “But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.”  Heb 12:23,24
    They are also, the “stars” found in many scriptures.
    Phil 2:14,15 -  ’Do everything without grumbling and arguing, so that you may be blameless and pure, children of God who are faultless in a crooked and perverted generation, among whom you shine like stars in the world, by holding firm to the word of life. Then I can boast in the day of Christ that I didn’t run or labor for nothing.
     This following scripture is used by the other David Attenborough, in their illustrious presentation of the stars in the universe (I have heard a few people elsewhere noticing Wt’s choice to pick a close second to the original David. Couldn’t that be called a suggestive cheap trick?)
    “He determines the number of the stars
        and calls them each by name.
    Great is our Lord and mighty in power;
        his understanding has no limit.”  Ps 147:4,5
    If He can number every hair on our head, of course He knows the number of literal stars present at any given time in the heavens. But, doesn’t it make more sense that God is “calling” a person by name, whom He compares to the stars in heaven?  Rom 1:1,6,7; Rev `17:14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom+1%3A1%2C6%2C7%3B+Rev+`17%3A14+&version=NKJV
    To Abraham, he said - Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”  Gen 15;5  (Gen 26:4)
    “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? (The anointed are also, God’s “land” - 1 Cor 3:9-11) 
    Tell Me, if you have understanding.
    5 Who determined its measurements? 
    Surely you know!
    Or who stretched the line upon it? (Zech 2:1,2; Isa 28:17; Rev 11:1)
    6 To what were its foundations fastened?  (Prov 9:1; 1 Tim 3:15; Rev 3:12)
    Or who laid its cornerstone, (Isa 28:16; Matt 21:42; 1 Pet 2:4-8)
    7 When the morning stars sang together,
    And all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Eph 2:19-22; Gal 3:26-29; Rev 19:1)
    Jesus is the morning star. (Rev 22:16) If the anointed remain attached to the vine of light and truth, they also will shine like the stars in his right hand.  (Matt 5:14,15; John 15:4; Rev 1:20)
    I can't believe the Wt. teaches that the elders are those stars in Rev 1:20.  How blasphemous.  Actually, I can believe it.
    Eph 2:6 – “He also raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus”
    “Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.”  Dan 12:3
    But, the governing leaders won’t appreciate or share the spiritual symbolism of God’s stars, sun, moon and earth.  Instead, these fallen “star”/ leaders (Rev 8:10,11) are responsible for releasing their army to “trample” these stars/anointed under the feet of the “man of lawlessness”/elder body. (Rev 9:1-4,7-11; 2 Thess 2:1-4)
    Dan 8:9 describes this man of sin as a “little horn” that emerges from the head of the Beast/organization of Rev 13:1,2.  It “grew exceedingly great” toward the “Beautiful Land”. (Joel 1:6; 2:3; Joel 3:2) Of course, that “land”, is another illustrative term describing God’s anointed under covenant – His “special possession” where His spirit dwells in each of their hearts.  (1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17)  The elder body’s presence supersedes that of the anointed priesthood/Temple of God. 
    “And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them.”  Dan 8:10  (Rev 12:4)
    “Through his cunning He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule; And he shall exalt himself in his heart. He shall destroy many in their prosperity. He shall even rise against the Prince of princes; *But he shall be broken without human means*.”  Dan 8:25
     "He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God." 
    8 *And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.*   2 Thess 2:4,8 
    It is a quite the cunning trick to speak about the rebellion of Korah who desired to secure the priesthood, and without skipping a beat, turn around and say, “representing the royal priesthood is the elder body….rather than challenge their authority, we truly appreciate our hardworking elders!”
     
    Who is the Fallen "Star" of Rev 12:4?
     
     
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