Srecko Sostar

What is meant by Jesus’ words in John 4:21-24?
What mountain will rise and draw people to it, in the last days?  Isa 2:2,3
What “mountain” is destroyed in Zech 4:7-14, when the last “living stone” of the Temple/mountain of God is in place? 
What “mountain” is destroyed in Rev 8:8? It is an established earthly “mountain-like” organization.  I can only think of one organization that calls itself the “mountain-like” “spirit-directed” organization – the one you expect people to submit to.
As far as “cyanide” affecting a tiny group of people, this warning was given to God’s saints:
"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping."  2 Pet 2:1-3
How is this accomplished?  How can truth, the living waters of Jesus Christ, be brought into disrepute?  (John 7:38)
”See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.  Heb 12:15
Wouldn’t you know... wormwood is a bitter root; and knowing that “stars” are represented by anointed ones, (Gen 26:4; Dan 12:3; Luke 11:33; 2 Pet 1:19; Rev 1:20)…
...who is Wormwood in Rev 8:10,11?  Interestingly, this account of a fallen star being called “Wormwood” is noted in the same chapter as the “mountain” being destroyed.
God allows this or has allowed Satan to deceive, when His people have sinned through idolatry and the acceptance of false teachings.  (Luke 22:39)
“Therefore thus says the Lord of hosts concerning the prophets:
‘Behold, I will feed them with wormwood,
And make them drink the water of gall;
For from the prophets of Jerusalem
Profaneness has gone out into all the land.’ ”  Jer 23:15
 
What is more important to you, knowing the truth from Jesus Christ, or accepting the discipline administered by men which an organization provides?
 
Wormwood, False Prophets, Armageddon

Right.  In this corrupted world, God would choose elements based on the expertise of men, to shed "light" on the scriptures.  Men would organize themselves, choose who would be the leaders and those who must submit to their "expertise" and supposed knowledge of His Word.  
This isn't the organization concept from God, it is submitting oneself to the "world".  Men will then say, 'our organization is the dwelling place of God'.  This is blasphemy.  
Earthly organizations are created mountains.  They come with rules and regulations on how to worship God. These rules are at the whim of men.  If they they are not followed, this mountain can consume the "sheep".  
Jesus referred to two mountains in John 4, where worship was established -  Jerusalem, and the Samaritan temple.  Those mountains were corrupted by corrupt leaders.  God removed His Spirit from Jerusalem when Jesus died. 
There is only one organization that is acceptable to God, and it isn't fabricated by men.  You are misunderstanding the concept of church, congregation, and the Body of Christ.  While you reign over and discipline the anointed in the organization, you have failed to see that they are the dwelling of God - His Temple. (1 Cor 3:16,17)  Can you comprehend  that the Wt has consumed the sheep of Jesus Christ, through a man-made organization?  Rev 13:5-10
You are expecting the members of Jesus' body to be submissive to a discipline created by men.  THEY, the anointed, are the "organization" outlined by God.  Within their heart are the "rules and regulations" that God put there. (Heb 8:10) Yet, men are superior with their book of "light" that always needs updating.   8 million JWs have no understanding of the true spiritual organization built on the anointed Body of Christ.  Who would blind them of this truth, Jesus or Satan?  (Col 2:8; Rev 12:1-4,7,13-15)
 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.
“Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by human design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”  Acts 24,25,29-31
"human design and skill", is how an earthly organization is is born.
As I just asked a JW, once a ministerial servant ,who now realizes now that no earthly organization is the "way" to truth...
"One has to ask, what is more important today, this spiritual Temple, or the organization?  Who is called on to teach the word of God, the anointed priesthood (Mal 2:7), or elders not part of God’s Temple, but are the backbone of an earthly organization?
I'm sorry you are so blind.  

Some arguments matter to some listeners, and some don’t. It is, of course, difficult to always explain why this happens.
If we are going to judge their participation in the forum from the aspect of WTJWorg publications asking their members not to have contact with people who are “marked” by your organization, then you are right.
If we look at their participation from the aspect of various Bible reports and lessons, then their participation and interaction with people who have different attitudes and opinions is not forbidden. Forum members should judge for themselves who they will talk to and what they will talk about.
Take for example the conversation in Eden. There is no account from the book of Genesis in which God condemned Eve for talking to the Serpent. Nor did he condemn Adam for talking to Eve who was talking to the Serpent. He convicted them of actions that were not of a verbal nature.

I do wish that those people obsessed with AN ORGANISATION, would tell me, in chronological order, which Organisations Almighty God was using from the year 100 through to the year 1850. 
All complete names of ALL the organisations, with dates from and to, please.  I look forward to your thorough reply, because you people seem to be so confident that you have these answers. 

That leaves out the Wt organization, which continually fights for their worldly rights; who cannot accept a court's decision in the case of child abuse, but must bulldoze their way back into court, to preserve their riches.  As far as religious organizations go, they are as worldly as the worst of them.  
"Pure and genuine religion in the sight of God the Father means caring for orphans and widows in their distress and refusing to let the world corrupt you." James 1:27
James 2:1-17; Exod 22:22; James 4:4-10
 

Theoretical considerations [ edit | edit code ]
In the very history of the problem of conscience we find various theories that we can reduce to four basic types:
Conscience is understood as participation in the Divine (Christian tradition, especially in Thomas Aquinas and Martin Luther ) Conscience in the function of the autonomous mind ( Kant ) Conscience as a product of social-educational determination ( Locke ) Conscience is the result of moral conflict ( Freud ) Perhaps we need to learn more about these aspects for further discussion. Some idea, please.

I like this. You made excellent quote. WTJWorg publications only contain the claim that there were always people who worshiped YHVH between the 1st century and the appearance of Russell.
Not once did they name any "organization." So we have no indication, no evidence from WTJWrg, that God used any organized system (organization) and people who would be part of that system as believers / members.

Well, like I said. I'm reading this paper.
https://rts.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Libery-of-Conscience.pdf

There are three things that we will always have in this System ... death, taxes, and busybodies.

This is a new topic (because we are supposed to do this) based on information given by @JW Insider 
JWI gave information about someone being told NOT TO  partake of the emblems at the Memorial.
This evening is the Memorial of the last meal that Christ shared with His closest followers.
Whilst we remember how Christ gave his life I would like to share a scripture at Revelation 5 
9, And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10  and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”
This scripture shows that Christ 'was slaughtered' for the Anointed ones.
So I have a question. Do JWs who feel they are of the Anointed have to ask the Elders for permission to partake of the Emblems ?
Q2. Does any human on this earth have the right to judge if another person can partake of those emblems ? 
 

I like this. You made excellent quote. WTJWorg publications only contain the claim that there were always people who worshiped YHVH between the 1st century and the appearance of Russell.
Not once did they name any "organization." So we have no indication, no evidence from WTJWrg, that God used any organized system (organization) and people who would be part of that system as believers / members.

Everything is wrong with this picture.
Everything.
The distressed sister was preventing another member of the Body to “partake”. Perhaps she was enjoying her presumed prestige she experienced in that congregation?  She couldn’t tolerate a rival.  The sister who went to the elder is equally guilty, if she listened to him and did not partake.  Her first inclination should have been to approach the distressed sister with scriptures, who should have been over the moon knowing another anointed had joined her. (1 Cor 12:15-26; 11:33)  Perhaps it is only in her own mind that the distressed one had put herself upon a pedestal…sort of like her example, Tony Morris.   
The elder, is also guilty.  He is not the mediator between Jesus Christ and the members of his body. (1 Tim 2:5)   But, that is the setup of the organization, and it is blasphemy.  Rev 13:5-8)  They have the power to rule over a spiritual nation, the “special possession” of God, and the anointed allow it.  Whenever this has happened in the past with Israel, it is because of their sins.  The anointed have left Jesus Christ and allowed men to dictate their every move.
Gal 1:10 - For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.
Obviously, the example provided shows this. 
The elders, “represent the royal priesthood”, which means, they are an active representation of God’s priests.  They are acting in the capacity of priests.  On the other hand, the members of God’s authentic priesthood are told they cannot act as priests until the Kingdom.  In actuality, they are treated no different than any other JW.  But their representatives are treated with honor.  Every JW is told they must submit to their decrees.  This has made it convenient, for men to rule over and trample the anointed.  The power of the holy ones (aside of any who may be anointed within the GB at present) does not exist.  (Dan 12:7; Matt 24:15,16; 2 Thess 2:3,4) And, the GB's power does not come from Jesus Christ anyway.  (Matt 24:24; Rev 13:11,12)
Mal 2:7 - “For the lips of a priest ought to preserve knowledge, because he is the messenger of the Lord Almighty and people seek instruction from his mouth.”
The dichotomy to Mal 2:7 is this:
The lips of the elders who “represent the royal priesthood” ought to preserve knowledge, because he is the messenger of the GB, and JWs seek instruction from his mouth.
 
 

I like this. You made excellent quote. WTJWorg publications only contain the claim that there were always people who worshiped YHVH between the 1st century and the appearance of Russell.
Not once did they name any "organization." So we have no indication, no evidence from WTJWrg, that God used any organized system (organization) and people who would be part of that system as believers / members.

It says that tradition does not choose its "victims".
Cesar, you sound like burdened church member. Obsessed with phantasms. Please, use your argumentation about topic, you are better in that, and .... i like to discuss with you.    

I suppose not, but he probably had fear about what would people talking about.  
This could mean that the issue of circumcision was resolved in two different (Timothy vs Titus) ways and that the dilemma around it was still a stumbling block.
This is the second time you have mentioned @JW Insider and me in a non-existent context. What is your problem? :))

Unfortunately, we have some examples in which God does not punish the individual who has wronged, but the entire nation. This is easy to notice in the examples of the kings of Israel. One of the prominent events is when the people are counted, by the king's order, even though it was forbidden to do so. Thus, none of the individuals opposed the king’s command. Their individual conscience was suppressed by the king's command. After all, people feared for their lives if they disobeyed the king.
Parallel? JW members are willing to suppress their conscience because of GB’s “commands”. The existence of a “Collective Consciousness”* is often so strong that it threatens an “Individual Conscience” of person and prevents her/him from acting on his own sense of good and bad.
*“Collective Consciousness” - in context of this phrase, it denotes/refers to rules and standards set by prominent members (leaders) of how followers should behave and what standards they should follow. Deviation from them brings condemnation of the collective, because the collective consciousness  is formed in accordance with the set rules.
The change of rules in a group does not happen because of the "troubled conscience of an individual", but because of intellectual-doctrinal-ideological reasons. Eg. excommunication was an inconceivable way of dealing with individuals in WTJWorg (article in Awake 1947). The conscience of the individual was subject to the rules tailored by the leaders of the collective. As leaders changed their decisions, the “Collective consciousness” on the same issues also began to change.
Determining what is good and what is evil has ceased to be a privilege of God, back in Eden. Because God himself concluded there: "now man has become like us and knows what is good and what is evil." - Gen 3:22
In the case of WTJWorg, the individual agrees to the third model. He renounces his own right to determine the good and evil provided by Adam and Eve, so he decided to leave that right, not to God, but to people who claims to represent God.
PS - We also introduce a "new" terminology: “collective guilt”. Who is to blame for obeying the king's bad command? These are close associates (lower hierarchy- aka elders) who were to carry out the (wrong) command to count the people. Who bore the consequences of the proceedings? According to the biblical account everyone in the country. Why couldn’t a “judicial council” be formed to consider the matter and make a fair decision? Why did they wait for God to pass a "judgment", when they could prevent the process of "counting the people", on their own, and/or when they could "punish" the king for his bad decision, after counting, on their own?

There is a scene in a Netflix show I just watched a few days ago where "Reporter Jack" asks Jerry Rubin a loaded question containing a false supposition, and Jerry Rubin answers: "You've posed that question in the form of a lie."
It's a variant of a classic example often used as a joke. I.e., "Do you still beat your wife?"
If person answers with the reflexive "No, of course not!" then the person who asked still has one "Aha!" jab left, even though it was based on a lie in the mind of the questioner.
For the record, I have never beaten my wife, and I have never sent a hidden message to Srecko. And I have never emailed Srecko, or privately messaged Srecko. Now, when a person becomes obsessed with finding a mistake, it's usually better not to answer questions that are posed in the form of a lie, because the questioner will merely look for loopholes still available to them in the answer. (Such as "Aha! He didn't deny telephoning him!" or "He didn't deny inserting hidden messages into the regular forum responses directed to him.") Of course, they may also pretend that a non-answer is an admission of guilt, which is the reason I went ahead and answered the "lie."

So this destroys the idea of 'collective conscience'.   And it proves the idea of individual conscience. 

So he arrived at Derʹbe and also at Lysʹtra.+ And a disciple named Timothy+ was there, the son of a believing Jewish woman but of a Greek father, 2  and he was well-reported-on by the brothers in Lysʹtra and I·coʹni·um. 3  Paul expressed the desire for Timothy to accompany him, and he took him and circumcised him because of the Jews in those places,+ for they all knew that his father was a Greek. - Acts 16
What happened there? Circumcision because of a question of conscience? Whose conscience? Timothy's conscience or Paul's? Because of morals? Because of standards? Or did it all happen because of TRADITION and Jewish morals and standards written and required by Jewish Law? 
Is it Paul’s action a consequence (the pressure) of “collective consciousness” (or conscience, to interpret xero), so he too fell under the influence of the "collective conscience" and went against own conscience, even although he preached that circumcision is “nothing”? Was it Paul’s moment of weakness, was he ignoring one’s own conscience, or fearing of social condemnation, etc?
What/which "collective conscience" did he considered and respected? From First Christian congregation  or from Old Jewish congregation?

Please, so the difference is obvious. These are just two things:
1) Ideological / religious differences
and/or
2) prejudices.
It has nothing to do with the fundamental function of conscience.

But what you are doing here is, putting your trust in 'men'.  It is so funny how JWs will deny somethings 'men' say, but happily follow other things that 'men' say when it serves their purpose.  

Article has title: The Concept of Collective Consciousness
I believe it is important to separate meaning in terminology, yet very similar words.
Consciousness and Conscious vs Conscience
 
Consciousness and Conscious:
a) an increasing of concerned awareness
b) the process of making people understand and be interested in important social or political issues
c) having mental faculties not dulled by sleep, faintness
d) perceiving, apprehending, or noticing with a degree of controlled thought or observation 
e) being concerned or interested
 
Conscience:
a) the sense or consciousness of the moral goodness or blameworthiness of one's own conduct, intentions, or character together with a feeling of obligation to do right or be good
b) a faculty, power, or principle enjoining good acts
c) the part of the superego in psychoanalysis that transmits commands and admonitions to the ego
 
I agree that we need to have an awareness (consciousness) of our own existence and that there is a conscience in us.

I would say that we can talk about individual conscience and different aspects of that phenomenon in a person’s life.
But it seems to me that there is no “collective conscience”. I do not consider this possible, because a collective can only be a set of individuals with more or less the same thoughts, experiences, common ideas and standards. But this does not constitute a prerequisite for a “collective conscience”. We can only speak of collective manipulation and collective pressure in some circumstances
What connects individuals in such a group are the reasons and goals of the association. The existence of collective influence or collective pressure on an individual, who is visible and invisible in its manifestation is what certainly exists.
Reality that some individuals have a conflict with collective standards, morals, ethics, and ideology  proves that every individual within a collective has an individual consciousness and conscience, not a collective one. This proves that individual consciousness and conscience make it a separate individual in collective existence, regardless of how strongly a collective is connected within itself and regardless of the positive or negative influence of the group on the individual.

I believe you can discuss th8ngs with Jesus, but from the jw perspective, why not address Jesus as Michael when your praying?

Gentile parents teach their gentile children about own morals and standards, with or without "Christian" ethics. And they, parents and children, decide in mutual interactions what sort of conscience they will have and grow. How do you explain, where is the place/position and influence of "nature" spoken in Romans 2:14 in that process? And how do you explain that Romans 2:14 speaking in favour, very positive about them, gentile people, in comparison to Roman congregation to which Paul directed those chapters?  
Verse 15 continue with:
They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.
Which and whose requirements was written on their hearts? When and how? Because their parents was "gentile" distanced(??) from "Christian" moral, standards and ethics.
I agree with some of your thoughts how there are unknown and invisible processes around all this.