Srecko Sostar

... I respect a man who can quote Clarke's Three Laws, Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics, and the names of the Three Stooges.
( actually, 4 Stooges ...)

A miracle is NOT a "miracle" because it comes from God.
It is a "miracle" because it ALMOST never happens, and when it does, we do not understand the mechanism of HOW it happened.
Example: If you as an archaeologist digging in the undisturbed volcanic pumice of Pompeii, uncovered a working modern day flashlight.

👍Yes, I agree

No, that is not problem, really  it is not.
So many others in Bible times were wrong, is not good way to excuse yourself (myself, etc) for wrongs, errors we made. Justify one's own mistakes with a general truth like this; that we all make mistakes, is not the right way. To make justification in fact. Because, when we make a mistake, then we need to admit the mistake, correct the mistake and ask for forgiveness. I am sure you will agree. 

Another Bible quote came to mind; My Father’s house has many rooms - John 14
So there’s something being said here about the idea that some will go to heaven. What does a lot of rooms (mansions, dweling places, abodes) mean? How many rooms and apartments are there? How many beds per room? If it really mattered or determined, I guess Jesus would have mentioned that thing. Or maybe not. But even this paragraph does not speak in favor of a fixed number of 144,000.

It could be. Some writers of WT study articles elaborated about mental state of people who take symbols, who are partakers. Yes, you make good point :)).  

No, that is not problem, really  it is not.
So many others in Bible times were wrong, is not good way to excuse yourself (myself, etc) for wrongs, errors we made. Justify one's own mistakes with a general truth like this; that we all make mistakes, is not the right way. To make justification in fact. Because, when we make a mistake, then we need to admit the mistake, correct the mistake and ask for forgiveness. I am sure you will agree. 

Little funny intermezzo, if you don't mind. We have Russian Sputnik again, in form of vaccine. :))

Another Bible quote came to mind; My Father’s house has many rooms - John 14
So there’s something being said here about the idea that some will go to heaven. What does a lot of rooms (mansions, dweling places, abodes) mean? How many rooms and apartments are there? How many beds per room? If it really mattered or determined, I guess Jesus would have mentioned that thing. Or maybe not. But even this paragraph does not speak in favor of a fixed number of 144,000.

No, that is not problem, really  it is not.
So many others in Bible times were wrong, is not good way to excuse yourself (myself, etc) for wrongs, errors we made. Justify one's own mistakes with a general truth like this; that we all make mistakes, is not the right way. To make justification in fact. Because, when we make a mistake, then we need to admit the mistake, correct the mistake and ask for forgiveness. I am sure you will agree. 

It could be. Some writers of WT study articles elaborated about mental state of people who take symbols, who are partakers. Yes, you make good point :)).  

Because that food has become "garbage."
Such “spiritual food” that was produced and multiplied in the past in WTJWorg printing presses is no longer produced. Most publications (books, magazines, booklets...) that many JWs today don’t even know about, are no longer used. It has been forgotten on the shelves of few old JW members and in the archives of WTJWorg in America.
Many publications were literally destroyed and / or thrown in the trash.
Personally, I remember helping to throw away hundreds of books in Zagreb's Bethel (at the old address at 11 Kamaufova Street in Zagreb) before many decades. It was a small format book, if I'm not mistaken the color was light blue, hardcover) A few of us were a young workforce carrying boxes of books out of the basement. And some of us had astonished faces in disbelief wondering, "Is it not a sin to throw away the word of God written in these books"?
The leading people of Bethel in Zagreb, together with the USA Administration, obviously did not consider such a procedure to be incorrect. Why? Well because of what many of us later realized. That wasn't "the truth" anyway. And more than that, it was not "the truth" from God. There are things that are “true” and without God to tell us that. But, WTJWorg used just the latter to convince people to accept human interpretations and beliefs as God's. Once upon a time, even today, they claim the same; that everything written in WTJWorg publications came from God via FDS channel or through GB.
It is unlikely that someone who simply reads the Bible without taking advantage of divinely provided aids could discern the light. That is why Jehovah God has provided “the faithful and discreet slave,” foretold at Matthew 24:45-47. Today that “slave” is represented by the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is under the direction of this body that the “Light Bearers” District Convention has been arranged. - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1992328 - Come to the “Light Bearers” District Convention
Title of this article suggesting how GB is Light Bearers, and then all JW members who sow such "truth" are likewise, light bearers.
Also: So, then, we have noted four basic avenues of aid: (1) reading and studying God’s Word, together with Christian literature; (2) persevering in prayer; (3) yielding to the influence of God’s holy spirit; and (4) enlisting the aid of mature Christians. In these ways, many, many persons have been helped in their struggle to overcome weaknesses. Yet, some have a far more difficult time conquering weaknesses than do others. Are there yet other aids that they could effectively use? - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1982762
Why do “divinely provided aids” end up in the trash?
 
 
 

It could be. Some writers of WT study articles elaborated about mental state of people who take symbols, who are partakers. Yes, you make good point :)).  

Okay, but I ask, where is love for neighbor with this doctrine, a doctrine that for those who may not be like you, but totally embrace this timetable? Where is your love for your neighboring JWs?   This date is at the root of the organization’s teachings, and is a source of disfellowshipping for many who reject it.  Perhaps that is why you may be keeping your opinion to yourself? (Prov 29:25; Mark 10:29,30)
I just heard a video clip that stated a document was prepared by the Chairman’s Committee of the GB, to change the date of 1914 to 1957.  Ray Franz comments on this document he was holding in the video:
"Now, in this document, they suggest and advances an idea, that uh, the generation that would see the time of the end of all things should not be counted from 1914.  They fix on Jesus’ statement that there would be signs in the heavens, and so they suggest here that the date should be moved up to 1957, when the Sputnik was sent into space by the Russians, and they say, now this is the celestial phenomena that would indicate the generation that would see the final” (I didn’t catch the last word).
It seems that this “Sputnik” idea was even brought out on this forum since I've been a member.  Someone can correct me on that.
So, there you go.  If the doctrine of 1914 was correct, well established by the “slave” under the guidance of Jesus Christ, there would be no reason to consider moving the date.  There would be no need for David Splane to twist and turn the dates of Fred Franz’s birth and baptism…to make a new understanding of a date...they are too cowardly to admit is a lie. 
And yet, it is a tool used to kick people to the curb, and why?  To save the face of men who have no pity for the damage they have done, to the lives of millions over the years. 
Differing weights and varying measures—
both are detestable to the Lord.  Prov 20:10
Their hypocrisy should be detestable to us also.
Have they proven to be “faithful and discreet”?  The word translated as “discreet”, actually has, as its definition…“wise”.  Matt 24:48-51
There is no love for neighbor, no truth, no wisdom, no insight in the doctrine of 1914. 
Yet, this date characterizes the organization that you belong to.
"Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. 18 For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple. " Rom 16:17,18
 
 
 
 

It could be. Some writers of WT study articles elaborated about mental state of people who take symbols, who are partakers. Yes, you make good point :)).  

I know you are being sarcastic, but if anything changed, then it wouldn't be for the first time, you know that. And really, it is not a fundamental problem whether the number is literal or not, (even though I said it could solve the problem of increasing partakers, as you say, it could be because some have dropped out etc.. ) Ultimately God knows the correct interpretation, we can only do our best to understand it, and we can be wrong, as so many others in Bible times were. I am not worrying about it.

:))) ....there isn't really a problem with that aspect. If the number changes, it's because some anointed ones drop out, some replace them, and some dropouts come back again ... somewhere, or at least in WTJWorg.
Only the Main Administrative Body (ruling council), which is the Ecclesiastical GB, can have a problem. Because their doctrine, which is in force because of their will and so called “guided” understanding, is incorrect. :))

:))) ....there isn't really a problem with that aspect. If the number changes, it's because some anointed ones drop out, some replace them, and some dropouts come back again ... somewhere, or at least in WTJWorg.
Only the Main Administrative Body (ruling council), which is the Ecclesiastical GB, can have a problem. Because their doctrine, which is in force because of their will and so called “guided” understanding, is incorrect. :))

17 However, if some of the branches were broken off and you, although being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the richness of the olive’s root...20  That is true! For their lack of faith, they were broken off,...23  And they also, if they do not remain in their lack of faith, will be grafted in,y for God is able to graft them back in.
As we know, WTJWorg teaches that 144000 is a literal number. They also teaches that if some “anointed ones” drop out then they will be replaced by someone else, to get the number filled.
Reading these lines, I see something for the first time. Fallen anointed ones are replaced by newly elected anointed ones. But the verse says that the fallen anointed ones can return and be attached to the tree again. So the tree always remains the same, but the number of branches is not determined. Returning the cut branches, there is no mention anywhere that the replacement branches will be cut off because the original branches are reattached. So, the number of "anointed ones" according to this illustration is not defined. It can be larger than the imagined number (144000).
 
 

:))) ....there isn't really a problem with that aspect. If the number changes, it's because some anointed ones drop out, some replace them, and some dropouts come back again ... somewhere, or at least in WTJWorg.
Only the Main Administrative Body (ruling council), which is the Ecclesiastical GB, can have a problem. Because their doctrine, which is in force because of their will and so called “guided” understanding, is incorrect. :))

17 However, if some of the branches were broken off and you, although being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the richness of the olive’s root...20  That is true! For their lack of faith, they were broken off,...23  And they also, if they do not remain in their lack of faith, will be grafted in,y for God is able to graft them back in.
As we know, WTJWorg teaches that 144000 is a literal number. They also teaches that if some “anointed ones” drop out then they will be replaced by someone else, to get the number filled.
Reading these lines, I see something for the first time. Fallen anointed ones are replaced by newly elected anointed ones. But the verse says that the fallen anointed ones can return and be attached to the tree again. So the tree always remains the same, but the number of branches is not determined. Returning the cut branches, there is no mention anywhere that the replacement branches will be cut off because the original branches are reattached. So, the number of "anointed ones" according to this illustration is not defined. It can be larger than the imagined number (144000).
 
 

Just for sake of discussion  
Is there a possibility that, the number, 144000 should not be taken literally? Revelation is full of symbolism and almost nothing is literal. Even the term 1000 year (Kingdom) should not be literally counted as one thousand years of 365 days each.
WTJWorg has formally given up the length of Creative Day that lasted 7,000 years. But, it is still the idea that literal 1000 years of the Kingdom is PART of the literal 7000 Years (of 7th Creative Day). That is why it was a rumor around 1975, because then the period of 6000 years from the creation of man ended. According to such a WTJWorg chronology, the final part of the 7th day, with the 1000 years of the Kingdom of God, was expected to begin in that period. 
By overthrowing the idea of a fixed duration of Creative Day, the interpretation built on the rejected idea was called into question. But nothing new. The same can be seen in other interpretations.

It would also resolve the issue of there having been more than a million partakers who faced death for their Christian faith rather than give a pinch of incense to the Roman emperor, or contaminate their conscience with other forms of idolatry or blood. It's either that or explicitly allow for the idea that an earthly hope had been opened up generally to Christians before 1935.

I have wondered about that too, for the same reason. If the number was not literal, it would help in solving the problem of ever increasing partakers each year. I would not be surprise if it was dropped one day....

17 However, if some of the branches were broken off and you, although being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the richness of the olive’s root...20  That is true! For their lack of faith, they were broken off,...23  And they also, if they do not remain in their lack of faith, will be grafted in,y for God is able to graft them back in.
As we know, WTJWorg teaches that 144000 is a literal number. They also teaches that if some “anointed ones” drop out then they will be replaced by someone else, to get the number filled.
Reading these lines, I see something for the first time. Fallen anointed ones are replaced by newly elected anointed ones. But the verse says that the fallen anointed ones can return and be attached to the tree again. So the tree always remains the same, but the number of branches is not determined. Returning the cut branches, there is no mention anywhere that the replacement branches will be cut off because the original branches are reattached. So, the number of "anointed ones" according to this illustration is not defined. It can be larger than the imagined number (144000).