Srecko Sostar

You may be right,
“And the number of the people of Israel will be like the grains of sand of the sea, which cannot be measured or numbered. And in the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ it will be said to them, ‘The sons of the living God.” Hosea 1:10

Yes, of course. There are very few numbers in Revelation that are taken literally. Even the number 144,000 is made up of a non-literal number of tribes (12) each made up of a non-literal number of persons from each one of them (12,000).
The rationale for taking this one literally is that it is compared with an uncountable number of gentiles who come out of the great tribulation. We don't teach that these are literal gentiles either.

Just for sake of discussion  
Is there a possibility that, the number, 144000 should not be taken literally? Revelation is full of symbolism and almost nothing is literal. Even the term 1000 year (Kingdom) should not be literally counted as one thousand years of 365 days each.
WTJWorg has formally given up the length of Creative Day that lasted 7,000 years. But, it is still the idea that literal 1000 years of the Kingdom is PART of the literal 7000 Years (of 7th Creative Day). That is why it was a rumor around 1975, because then the period of 6000 years from the creation of man ended. According to such a WTJWorg chronology, the final part of the 7th day, with the 1000 years of the Kingdom of God, was expected to begin in that period. 
By overthrowing the idea of a fixed duration of Creative Day, the interpretation built on the rejected idea was called into question. But nothing new. The same can be seen in other interpretations.

In general, that statement is true. Except when this particular mystery doctrine was being explained by Russell. For example, in Volume VI of Studies in the Scriptures, page 239, Russell showed that the 144,000 were "Joint-sacrificers" with Jesus Christ.

As I mentioned above, these 144,000 joint-sacrificers are correctly referred to as "gods," per Russell:

[also, Volume VI of Studies in the Scriptures, p.239]

This is correct. Russell never took the place of Christ before his Church. Christ was the Head of the Body, and Russell would never consider himself the "Head" of the Body of Christ. This doesn't mean that Russell would ever have admitted that any other person could be God's "mouthpiece." Russell only said this about himself, and no one else. Also Russell printed letters that addressed himself as "the faithful and wise servant." He printed no letters that identified anyone else as that "faithful and wise servant." He did this while teaching that this "servant" could only be ONE INDIVIDUAL, and not a class of individuals.

No. I don't think he ever took it back. The teaching survived into Rutherford's period of leadership, and there were still echoes of it during the time of Knorr and Franz. I don't recall exactly when it was rejected in print, but some say that Franz, while giving the Memorial talk, would quote the verse from 1 Cor 12:12 and then follow up with an odd statement to the effect that "only the 144,000 share the flesh and blood of the Christ, even though Jesus himself no longer shares flesh and blood." It's scriptural but by putting emphasis on the word "share" he made it sound odd, perhaps invoking John 6.
There's even an echo of it in the expression, "he is one of 'the anointed.'"
Originally this "mystery doctrine" led to some awkward sounding statements from Russell too. For example, he said in 1914 (Watchtower, p.83):
https://archive.org/details/1914WatchTower/mode/2up?q=sum+total
"The word Christ signifies anointed. God has declared that He will have an anointed King and High Priest to be His Agent in the blessing of the world. He has declared that that great King is, primarily, the Lord Jesus Christ. He also declares that instead of the Lord Jesus being the sum-total of the Anointed One, it is His good pleasure that there shall be members added to Him. And the adding of these members has been the completing of this Anointed One."
But if all the anointed were "The Christ" this had led to him also claiming that the anointed 144,000, including himself, were also the "Mighty God" and the "Eternal Father." (Isaiah 9) And his explanations seemed strained.
"Soon follows the power which will, under him as our head, constitute the whole body of Christ the "Mighty God" to rule and bless the nations - and the body with the head, shall share in the work of restoring the life lost in Adam, and therefore be members of that company which as a whole will be the Everlasting Father to the restored race." - (WT November 1881: 298)
Rutherford called this body of Christ: "the Great Messiah." This followed consistently on Russell's statements such as another from the same 1914 Watchtower:
"And as we further study, we find that this is the Mystery mentioned in the Scriptures: to wit, that the great Messiah so long promised should be composed of many individuals;
But I think it was only Russell who delved into statements that would show that this doctrine proved that when Jesus said "Ye are gods" in John 10, that this also had reference to the 144,001. I'm sure that to some, this would have sounded too similar to Mormon teaching.

Thank you for these scriptures. 
God sends those whose hearts desire to serve Him, to Jesus.  Without knowing Jesus and his teachings, we cannot fully come to know God.  Jesus is the pivotal point in our worship in spirit and truth.  (John 4:23,24)
“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." Matt 11:27
This takes a relationship with Christ in order to know the Father.  No one can establish a valuable relationship with anyone, without communication.  
The apostle Paul was a human being who spoke to Jesus twice after his resurrection that we know of...besides the vision he experienced.  How can one man, as well as Stephen, have the privilege of speaking to Jesus, but no other person is allowed to?
"Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. 8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 
This is communication, but with whom?
9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” 
Who's power?
"Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong."  2 Cor 12:7b-10
Jesus and Paul were communicating through prayer.
 
 
 

He wouldn't be the first barking dog in the neighborhood, and most definitely, not the last.

Approved? No "transparency" than? As people today would say. You know, today is modern to be "transparent"   
But, let us go to old wording and same meaning: "Be honest in all things" Heb 13:18 ... and let people know what are you speaking and thinking and doing.  Let it be known for all to see, without limit.
 

No comment  

Where is the scripture that makes no allowance for it?
NOW you don't have a problem with it?  Even though apparently there is no scripture that makes allowance for it?
 

Approved? No "transparency" than? As people today would say. You know, today is modern to be "transparent"   
But, let us go to old wording and same meaning: "Be honest in all things" Heb 13:18 ... and let people know what are you speaking and thinking and doing.  Let it be known for all to see, without limit.
 

@TrueTomHarley  When "They (GB) speak", members are reminded to have full trust in GB  (and their words), and not to question "instructions" because WT Study Edition gave lesson:  All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or  human  standpoint or not. - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/pl/r1/lp-e?q=w13 11%2F15 20
Who is "too much", TTH ?  

Nothing to do with not being transparent. It's quite normal if someone wants to be part of a club,  they have to meet club rules. The JW only club is just that: for JWs only. Nothing dishonest or secretive about that. The scripure you quote applies to relationships and interactions with people, even then, the scripture doesn't mean you have to indiscriminately tell everyone everything. You have examples in the Bible where faithful servants of God did not say everything they knew. There is a time to speak, and a time to be quiet.

Just for a laugh, people should know that Russell did also claim to be "The Christ." He claimed that all 144,001 members of Christ's body were "The Christ."

No comment  

No comment  

Yes and no. You have to be approved to join the JW Only club first in order to read the contents and comment. 

@TrueTomHarley  When "They (GB) speak", members are reminded to have full trust in GB  (and their words), and not to question "instructions" because WT Study Edition gave lesson:  All of us must be ready to obey any instructions we may receive, whether these appear sound from a strategic or  human  standpoint or not. - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/pl/r1/lp-e?q=w13 11%2F15 20
Who is "too much", TTH ?  

Jesus is the Word, the Logos. John 1:1    He has been speaking to people since mankind was created.  He is the representative of the word of God.  It was he who spoke God’s word to Moses, and it was he who was one of the three angels that visited Abraham before destroying Sodom and Gomorrah.  It was he who appeared to Joshua.  It was he who spoke to Paul when he was struck with blindness, and Paul spoke back to him.  (Exod 3:5; Josh 5:15; Gen 18:1,2; Acts 9:4-6)
Rutherford, at one time encouraged worship to Jesus, and then began to teach the opposite. One has to ask why.  Who is it that is at war with Jesus?  Who would rather we not speak to the Son of God?  (Gen 3:15; Eph 6:12; 1 Tim 4:1)   The only people who are telling JWs not to speak to Jesus Christ, are men - the leaders in the Watchtower.  
 
"The LORD acquired me at the beginning of his creation, before his works of long ago. 23 "I was formed before ancient times, from the beginning, before the earth began. 24 "I was born when there were no watery depths and no springs filled with water.
"Before the mountains were established, prior to the hills, I was given birth -- 26 "before he made the land, the fields, or the first soil on earth. 27 "I was there when he established the heavens, when he laid out the horizon on the surface of the ocean,
when he placed the skies above, when the fountains of the ocean gushed out, 29 when he set a limit for the sea so that the waters would not violate his command, when he laid out the foundations of the earth. 30 I was a skilled craftsman beside him. I was his delight every day, always rejoicing before him. 31 I was rejoicing in his inhabited world, delighting in the children of Adam.  Prov 8:22-31
 “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For everything was created by him, in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities -- all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and by him all things hold together.”  Col 1:15-17
 
I am so sorry that JWs are prevented by men with smooth convincing words on their tongue, from approaching the Word of God, Jesus Christ.  It took polished, well-crafted words to change the whole concept of worshipping Jesus, into proclaiming it a sin against God.
 
My companion attacks his friends.
    He breaks his promise.
21 His talk is as smooth as butter.
    But he has war in his heart.
His words flow like olive oil.
    But they are like swords ready for battle.  Ps 55:20,21
 

The guy gets smarter by the second.
I actually didn’t know that it was possible to block on this forum. 

Perhaps they will expect those helpers to carry the burden too, when the hammer comes down. 
 

The following thesis should be considered. If Jesus became King, with all "authority in heaven and on earth," in 33 AD or in 1914 AD, as you wish, than we come to a dilemma;
If Jesus is your King, from whom should you ask, pray for mercy, blessing, help, etc.? From his Dad or from Him who is The King?
According to WTJWorg teaching, JHVH is The Grandfather, already (think in book "Prince of Peace" they put this). Also, Witness explained in her illustration this moment. If the interpretation of the Biblical words is correct (about the surrender / return of the power of the Son to the Father, after 1000 years) from 1 Cor. 15, we shall have different situation about Who is Who in the Universe. 
Then we have in John 14 6; Jesus said to him, “I am the way + and the truth + and the life. + No one comes to the Father except through me.
But we also have John 6 44; No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him, ..
Interesting and complicated, at least for me. 
If there is freedom of communication, at least (even if) only in our head, then we can "talk" to whoever we want. After all, only a few have literally heard a reaction to their words, according to Bible.

Perhaps Anna and other JW members believe how apostasy in form of "man of lawlessness" already came in 1st Christian congregation and then continued with big appearance of Roman State Religion aka false Christianity that exist until today. In such logic (WTJWorg teaching i guess) it looked as good conclusion for Russell and his heirs (Rutherford and JW's with him later) how "presence" of Jesus came somehow in the same time with "presence" of Russell. "First Jesus' presence" in 1874 with "end" in 1914 (WTS established in 1879). Later they moved this date, and the year 1914 came to be start point for "invisible presence", again.
In such WTJWorg "scenario" it is not possible, or needed to happen again, for any new occurrence with some extra "man of lawlessness" in "only true religion" aka WTJWorg. But such eschatology, eschatological understanding, removes the caution of believers, who may be manipulated by their religious leaders. As it seems to me, the "man of lawlessness" has existed constantly, throughout the period since the 1st Congregation was established till today.
"The Strong Cable of Chronology", Watch Tower, July 15, 1922, page 217, "The chronology of present truth is, to begin with, a string of dates... Thus far it is a chain, and no stronger than its weakest link. There exist, however, well established relationships among the dates of present-truth chronology. These internal connections of the dates impart a much greater strength than can be found in other [secular, archeological] chronologies. Some of them are of so remarkable a character as clearly to indicate that this chronology is not of man, but of God. Being of divine origin and divinely corroborated, present-truth chronology stands in a class by itself, absolutely and unqualifiedly correct.
he Watchtower, March 1, 1922, page 73, "The indisputable facts, therefore, show that the 'time of the end' began in 1799; that the Lord's second presence began in 1874."

JW Open Club and JW Only Club in one place - The Forum. People can go on two "sources" with the simple move of "mouse" :))
Thanks for giving "credit" to ex members (and new ex members :) ) whose words have certain meaning and some value to given readers.