Srecko Sostar

Let me comment again on this. They (people) could conclude the following: If you say nothing AGAINST something, then others might (perhaps rightly) conclude that 1) the person knows nothing about the true state of affairs or 2) that his silence justifies, supports and allows the status quo.
Of course there is also point 3) and 4) but i would not want to complicate :))

@JW Insider
You have very, very good memory and you are skilled in computer use. Great. I envy you ... a little.  

Let me comment again on this. They (people) could conclude the following: If you say nothing AGAINST something, then others might (perhaps rightly) conclude that 1) the person knows nothing about the true state of affairs or 2) that his silence justifies, supports and allows the status quo.
Of course there is also point 3) and 4) but i would not want to complicate :))

@Srecko Sostar asked how it was that I got through the material with him in the first place, and this is the key. During a study with someone I don't think it's my place to tell him where I might think differently, or why certain material may be questionable. But I don't have to go against my own conscience by saying things I don't believe. I can emphasize the points of agreement and defend, to a large extent, the basic concepts of the 1914 doctrine. And I end up in pretty much the same place: that we are in the last days, that Jesus is reigning, that Jesus is invisibly present, and that we are undergoing critical times hard to deal with. But when I go through Daniel 4, I present the 7 times as one of those ideas that might even point to our own time period.  (I believe it does point to our time period in the sense that it shows Jehovah still has everything under control, no matter how chaotic the effects of world governments are.)
I will typically add a bit of scriptural balance by pointing out what Jesus said about knowing the day and hour, and what Jesus said about the times and seasons being in the Father's jurisdiction, and Paul saying that we don't need to have anything more written to us about the times and seasons, or even the parousia itself, for the reasons he gave. But it is natural for us to want to see whatever we think is possible to see, and we live in times when it is important to keep our hope alive during an age of fear and distress upon all nations. This is especially true of times that can see conflicts escalate into world wars. When half a nation will take sides against the other half, or half a world will take sides against the other half.
What I think is obviously quite different than what appears in the WT, and I can't blame his own conscience. I am surprised that it came up years later, but fortunate enough that I am not "turned in" for my own conscientious beliefs. (I can believe that something made him doubt the chronology himself to trigger his dredging it up and then choosing to dig in his heels.) But it is sad to lose good friend.

Yeah, people in the west who have time to worry about some of this stuff can count themselves fortunate.
 

(Proverbs 26:17) Like someone grabbing hold of a dog’s ears Is the one passing by who [meddles in] a quarrel that is not his.
I have had hundreds of very similar exchanges with Allen/Billy/Cesar/D../E../F../etc., and, by explaining, might even be able to divert some of his sneering hatred back over to me instead of you.
First of all, you did nothing wrong. I see two possibilities here:
Cesar simply made a mistake when he misunderstood your post: he saw a response to something that made him think you were accusing him of lying, when you were obviously referring to Srecko. But as many of us have seen 1,000 times (probably not an exaggeration) Cesar has never been able to admit his own mistakes no matter how obvious they are to others. It is also possible that Cesar understood, and actually did see that you were referring to what Srecko said but he objected to you contradicting him when he had said that it was Srecko's "opinion" and you said that it was more than just Srecko's opinion, it was a "lie." All of us probably have some sensitivity towards what people say based on what we think of other things they have said. Everyone carries some "baggage." Sometimes I have found that it is easier to understand an exchange of ideas more objectively by imagining the exchange of ideas in a different context outside the forum, or by paraphrasing the meaning instead of the exact words, and even removing (or mentally swapping) the names of persons involved in an exchange.
I'll imagine two sisters (Sister "A" and Sister "B") going on a return visit to a woman (Woman "C") who has shown interest, but who has now learned something that disturbs her.
Woman C : But it looks like the WT writers can revoke previous teachings any time just by saying that "new light" has shined upon them.
Sister A : You are thinking something false, this conjecture that the WT is "changing" scripture altogether. Once again, that's just your opinion.
Sister B : Yes, [Sister A is right] ... and it's not just false conjecture or "just an opinion," it's really a blatant lie to say that the WT has changed scripture.
---------------The actual relevant portions of the exchange-----------
Srecko: WTJWorg religious teachers, scholars with GB+Helpers, "revoking" past and present teachings (each time a “new light” shines on them)
Cesar: The false statement here is your conjecture to say, the Watchtower is "changing" scripture altogether. Once again, that's just your opinion.
Arauna: it is a lie - not opinion.  
 

:))) it is the conversation of two sages, that is, philosophers

These days it is easy to confuse memory with a good search engine.

For a (former) job as a police officer, he needed a very good memory.
Today, for the (current) job of an elder, that is a good advantage.
But unfortunately, he lacks flexibility in thinking that would amortize two different views of 1914.
I wonder, how did you teach him that about 1914 that he accepted official teaching and yet could notice the difference (which has obviously worried him all this time) that made him remove you, today, from his list of friends?

Thanks, but these are not my examples but Bible text ... and some English translations. I am not dealing with Greek language but with nowadays languages (English and Croatian translations)
Is she sick?
Has she already died?
Will she die while we talk and walk? 
 
 

I didn't ask this issue, but i will provide you with one example of changing Bible text.
 
 When Jesus had again crossed over by boat to the other side of the lake, a large crowd gathered around him while he was by the lake. 22 Then one of the synagogue leaders, named Jairus, came, and when he saw Jesus, he fell at his feet. 23 He pleaded earnestly with him,  24     “My  little daughter is dying. Please come and put your hands on her so that she will be healed and live.”  So Jesus went with him. - mark 5 23 niv
After Jesus had crossed again by boat to the opposite shore, a large crowd gathered together to him, and he was by the sea.+ 22  One of the presiding officers of the synagogue, named Jaʹi·rus, now came, and on catching sight of him, he fell at his feet.+ 23  He pleaded with him many times, saying: “My little daughter is extremely ill.* (*near her end) Please come and put your hands on her+ so that she may get well and live.” 24  At that Jesus went with him, and a large crowd was following him and pressing against him. - mark 5 23 nwt
While he was saying this, a synagogue leader came and knelt before him and said, "My daughter has just died. But come and put your hand on her, and she will live." -  matt 9 18 niv
While he was telling them these things, look! a certain ruler who had approached did obeisance to him, saying: “By now my daughter must be dead, but come and lay your hand on her, and she will come to life. - matt 9 18 nwt
What is the truth about Jairus' daughter? To whom we should believe, to Mark or Matthew? Or to NWT idea where they changed text into 3rd possibility;  By now my daughter must be dead ??
 

1930-1985 https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200028612
1986-2021 https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200277174
On this two links we can find tens and hundreds doctrinal changes. 8 points you made looks poor.  
Thanks for down vote. It seems how you accepted a bad custom. You know, Bad company corrupts good character
:)) 

The Scripture say that weeds and wheat grow together. So neither of us should be in a position to judge, but to distinguish two types of plants. Of course, now anyone can go further and challenge someone’s ability to distinguish one thing from another. :))
WTJWorg religious teachers, scholars with GB+Helpers, "revoking" past and present teachings (each time a “new light” shines on them).
To prove this, you need to provide some authentic evidence of the continuity and permanence of understanding that does not change due to “human error” of past and present GB.
My opinion is irrelevant, because GB claims that they were/are not inspired as apostles and some others in FDS in the First Century.
 

Let someone tell us; Who brought the "beliefs clarified" on the table? Were it the Those who invented and advocated “vague beliefs,” or were these new beliefs generated by some New People in the Administration?
So your idea that there are “qualified people” who are the only ones authorized to revoke the authority of their predecessors does not actually bring any solution to the problem in WTJWorg. 
What then should the phrases mean: “know the proper context?” or “personal intent”? or "the spirit of the written" or "the biblical understanding"?
Almost nothing. Or should these phrases (in your JW context) justify some and belittle others?

... do you think, "beliefs clarified" ? 
 

Yeah. But it is optional method for some people. :))

I was in this situation when my daughter was so sick I knew she would not last long if the doctor did not see her.  I begged him to see her.
She was extremely ill -  she has cancer but I did not know it. If the doctor had not seen her she would not have had her operation and survived.  It was my pleading that made him see her - I had to wait a few more weeks to get an appointment.
 
This I can understand because if my daughter did not see a doctor I am sure she would be dead.
You know what - this is typical of your rhetoric.  You have never had problems - I guess - not real ones.  So you can sit and nitpick on trashy ideas from your own making. I see NO discrepancy in any of these sentence because I have been there and I would have used and could have used the same words.... for the same situation.

That takes a humility not found among all of us. Learning from our students rather than thinking only of ourselves as the teacher can be very beneficial.
My wife and I have years of pioneering behind us, although we are less active now. We both learned a lot from studying with a couple where the wife was mentally ill ("possession" issues), and they became Witnesses with no further issues that I have heard about. My wife and I studied with another mentally ill woman who had been in a jail (NYC Creedmoor), and whose fleshly brother (also an addict) joined one time creating a scene that brought about an assault situation for the police. There was no success here in converting the person, but it created a deep friendship and evidently a life-long change in the woman who has overcome addiction, and is still loved deeply by us. She actually sees herself as a Witness, although the elders here would not allow baptism.
I studied for years with persons inside medium and high-security prisons. Altogether, it's like a course in psychology.
I studied with one family where the husband was a policeman, the wife took a year of studying and long late-night hours with me on the phone to help her overcome her smoking addiction. They were baptized together. Their two children were too young at the time, but one has been baptized since. This is a sad situation for me, because we love the family and have been close, but he is an elder now and realizes that I didn't believe in the 1914 chronology because of things he remembered in the way I studied it with him. He confirmed this by asking me directly, and has now asked that we have no more contact.
Very early in my pioneering (pre-Bethel) I loved studying the Evolution book and the "Is the Bible Really the Word of God?" book with university students. It was easy to pick up a dozen Bible Studies, and this made the pioneering hour quota go by so easily. (Strangely, one of these studies left Missouri after getting baptized and joined the congregation I was assigned to in NY at Bethel.)  My mother is pioneering as we speak and calls in to the meeting for service every day before letters or phone calls, and she currently has only one regular Bible Study. She stays on the line with one of the other sisters so they can talk together while writing letters, but getting in the quota is so slow-going for her.
That can be read with a bit of ambiguity. If you care to, I am always happy to discuss.
I either join or create a discussion on the topic about once a year on the forum, because I have now spent enough time on the topic to be convinced in my own mind. It's not something I feel is specifically important in the long run, but it's part of an ongoing and ever-resurfacing problem of trying to motivate activity (works) by emphasizing that we have special knowledge of the times and seasons. Going back to review how we (as an organization) received this 1914 tradition was an important lesson in humility for me. But sharing that lesson will just be seen by most as the exact opposite of humility and some will vehemently oppose discussing it reasonably.
I've reached the same idea, and I know that other JWs have also concluded the same. One or two others have implied as much on this forum.

One thing I've had hammered into me over the past decades of pioneering, studying w/mentally ill people, people who were out of jail, homeless people, professors of anthropology, teachers of farsi at the local mosque, chinese buddhists from hong kong (using me to practice english), professors of astrophysics, ranchers, ex-football champs, a hip hop artist and so-called normal people is that I'm not more worthy of survival than any of these.
In fact many are arguably better people personality wise. People who really care about other people.
That's been my lesson. I believe the truth of the bible in outline taught by JW's w/exception w/regard to rather specific ideas surrounding certain events in the last 100 years.
My experience coming in was that these were some of the most open-minded people I'd dealt with. I watched them w/my gf for about six months just observing these meetings and going to get togethers (she was studying - I was an unhappy atheist). I felt that out of respect for her interest it was worth my time to watch them for a time to see what I thought of them.
At some point, I thought "I want all my friends to be JW's, but I don't want to be one." I could see weird people in the congregation and normal people - as an outsider. Weird people always give me the creeps, but most of the people I talked with didn't do that, like every other religion.
My change in attitude came from the first apologetics I'd ever seen "Is the Bible Really the Word of God", the old book on Evolution (a little blue one)...then I started hitting Christian stores and found a bunch. I hadn't started to study yet, but went w/my gf to one day of this district convention when they released the book "Life How Did It Get Here - By Evolution or Creation". I read it that night. What's funny is that I had almost all the referenced books because I was taking a lot of evolutionary classes at the university - I was in the midst of E. O Wilson's - Sociobiology and had finished Dawkins book the Selfish Gene. I was amazed. I went and got every book I could find on this, one of my favorites being the book "Darwin Was WRONG - A Study in Probabilities".  After eating up all I could on this, I was a thoroughgoing theist.
So I brightened so no doubt. God exists!.... Next step...has he communicated w/us....
So I doubled up on apologetics relative to the manuscript and historical evidence for the Bible. I used Gleason Archer's "A Survey of Old Testament Introduction" and "Is The Bible Really the Word of God" ...anyway a lot more in this regard....I bought the cassettes for the bible and listened to them while I was running.  (I'd started to study now, because I felt the guy who was studying w/me was OK, but he was kindof not that logical, so I got passed on to another couple of elders and we'd go through the material.
It'd go like "How does that make you feel about Jehovah" (a sample question), and I'd go "I can see from x that if y were true it would be reasonable to feel z, but I'm not quite there yet."
It took a while. I had more questions on biology and so they brought in this sister who'd been a masters biology major and I got to grill her w/questions.
Me - "What about the dinosaurs?"
Her - "Soil building takes time. Dinosaurs were great processors of plant material....."
It went like that.
I wasn't and still haven't been thoroughly convinced on some of these matters. (but is it important, when there IS a creator?)
Then there was the whole 1914 thing. That was something needing analysis. The question then and now was not whether the Jews were in captivity 70 years, that was not disputed....At least not to believers, but chasing this chronology is a collossal pit....Not that I don't recommend chasing it, just that no one was ever convinced of anything via chronology. (Except if you were a Jew in Babylon and you got word it was getting close)
 
Anyway...I've wandered. My final point is that I don't believe the bar for survival to be only JW's. I'm thinking it's the majority. Now does this mean some event may be allowed to impact the earth and the only way people survive is through divine intervention? I think so. Then the rest who perished in my view would likely get resurrected - face it - it's only the blasphemy against God's spirit which according to the Insight book is hard to know if anyone has done this or not....so I'm sure Jehovah is more merciful than any of us could imagine.
So then you follow your conscience - it's yours to follow or not, to wound or not. If you know how to do what's right and don't that's on you. If someone's doing something wrong and that's out of your control - well "Desiderata"...
 
 
 
 

The Scripture say that weeds and wheat grow together. So neither of us should be in a position to judge, but to distinguish two types of plants. Of course, now anyone can go further and challenge someone’s ability to distinguish one thing from another. :))
WTJWorg religious teachers, scholars with GB+Helpers, "revoking" past and present teachings (each time a “new light” shines on them).
To prove this, you need to provide some authentic evidence of the continuity and permanence of understanding that does not change due to “human error” of past and present GB.
My opinion is irrelevant, because GB claims that they were/are not inspired as apostles and some others in FDS in the First Century.
 

Someone can leave the organization knowing full well that GB's teachings are wrong, such as the existence of an earthly organization and GB in the first century.  Even though a GB leader validated that it was not so in the past (Fred Franz), anyone today who rejects this teaching, can be disfellowshipped.  It is because the organization is huge now and vitally important in the minds of men, (but not so in the minds of God and Jesus Christ).   Franz was never disfellowshipped for his radical view, but will always be highly respected, also by a recent member of the GB who now preaches that oh yes! there WAS an earthly organization established in the first century.  Thus, any rank and file member who disagrees verbally with this, are shunned - "killed" through disfellowshipping. (John 16:2; Rev 13:15)  The rank and file are convinced that that these are the rebels and are "dead" in God's eyes.    Fred Franz on the other hand, will always be considered a "pillar" of the organization, as A. Morris had previously stated.  
 This reminds me of Isa 32 - 
Indeed, a king will reign righteously,
and rulers will rule justly.
2 Each will be like a shelter from the wind,
a refuge from the rain,
like flowing streams in a dry land
and the shade of a massive rock in an arid land.
3 Then the eyes of those who see will not be closed,
and the ears of those who hear will listen.
4 The reckless mind will gain knowledge,
and the stammering tongue will speak clearly and fluently.
5 A fool will no longer be called a noble,
nor a scoundrel said to be important.
6 For a fool speaks foolishness
and his mind plots iniquity.
He lives in a godless way
and speaks falsely about the Lord.
He leaves the hungry empty
and deprives the thirsty of drink.
7 The scoundrel’s weapons are destructive;
he hatches plots to destroy the needy with lies,
even when the poor person says what is right.
8 But a noble person plans noble things;
he stands up for noble causes.
 
 

Me too. But few details exist in this issue, also.
I don't believe in many of the things (what) GB teach others. But JW people holds such "unbelievers" responsible for their decisions in this matter. They think they are to blame (for living organization or if they die in Armageddon, etc). They think they are to blame if they speak out against GB doctrines. 
That would mean, GB can say whatever they want, but it’s your fault if you respect them in their "foolishness". When JW member decide to not respect GB decisions (and perhaps he/she becomes ex-JW) is that "moral" or "immoral " decision?
Some acts of "faithful" servants in the past contributed to collective punishment. And God didn't ask (did not hold a referendum) what and how every single man, woman and child feel about King's decisions and behavior. In such examples no one cared about "we or my". All nation suffered because of "my" or "we".  

We do not know who reads this forum. Are there lots of people that just come here quietly and read it ?
So any information given here could well be read by others that are seeking 'truth' of all types.  After all, it was online that i first found out the truth about the CSA in JW Org. So putting links on this forum could be helpful to others that may never even comment here. 
It also helps to find out if any JWs are willing to admit to the faults in their Organistion. For instance, @JW Insider has always seemed balanced in his views. 
This forum has helped me with a Facebook page that I run too. Keep the information coming folks. It all helps. 

Not true.  The death threat from JWs is wicked and sinful. It has no place in a true Christian's heart. 
Yes it seems true that those who are completely 'opposed' to God will die at Armageddon. But that has nothing to do with being in or out of the JW Org right now.   
And the threat of Armageddon coming sooooo soon, "we are in the last part of the last day"  (the Org says),  is just an empty threat.  It would really be good if JWs just said, "There is a Judgment time coming but we don't know when"  Even going on about 'the signs of the times' is overdone. That scripture says 'but the end is not yet'