Srecko Sostar

Then you are a most unusual Elder indeed  

To their credit, Russell and Rutherford and Franz and the current GB have all given good evidence that they hoped for the end. Sometimes a strong hope for the end will cloud one's judgment about the rationality of predicting a specific time period for the end. But there is a big difference in hoping for the end, which is always proper, and predicting a specific time period for the end, which is ALWAYS improper, according to Jesus. We have examples set before us in the Bible showing the folly of trying to predict the time period. The Bible gives many reasons why this is foolishness to try to predict the time period.
Hoping for the end implies faithfulness and humility. Predicting a specific time period for the end implies presumptuousness and haughtiness.

This saying about Armageddon seems acceptable, but it is not. Some JW people chose poorly paid jobs because everything will fall apart anyway so retirement doesn’t matter because Armageddon will come soon. Some did not invest in the maintenance of the house, because it will soon end, why invest in what will be destroyed in Armageddon. The WTJWorg administration, on the other hand, made big plans and investments in real estate construction and then sold them for big money. Most were raised by voluntary contributions from members who gave to the Organization. 
Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.” Mahatma Gandhi. 
 

I wouldn't agree with a setting like this, Anna. There are things, in both religion and science, that could be called dogmas. In earlier science, such as that of the Middle Ages, there were “scientific assumptions” completely contrary to today’s understanding and evidence. In one significant part, correct me if I am wrong, the former science was in the hands of religious systems that claimed to have knowledge of “divine” origin, and therefore that knowledge was “infallible”.
Today, we have a different science. It is beyond the reach of religion. Even contrary to religious teachings. It is based on a different approach, methods and insights. Therefore, we will not say that scientific discoveries are "false or true" as in religion, but that they are "correct or inaccurate", because new evidence can confirm or change previous conclusions.
It is different with religion. We always have the same basic premise, and that is, “All knowledge comes from God,” and he determines what is right and wrong, what is true and false.
In religious matters, teachings, and conclusions, people supposedly rely entirely on the Word of God, and therefore such conclusions and dogmas are "true," for God is a God of truth, not falsehood. A lie is a deliberate untruth. There is no room for error here because we accidentally made a mistake. Religious leaders do not introduce any teaching or instruction with words that warn the flock in advance of the possibility of future changes in doctrine or give room for possible errors in doctrines. No, no religion does that. Also, even GB in WTJWorg never distances itself in advance from the fact that everything they say may be wrong. The “truth” is always published in WTJWorg, according to their own claims in the literature.
Subsequent changes in the interpretation of previous interpretations are called “new light” which illuminates “old light”. No one in WTJWorg called “old light” a real name within religious i.e. biblical terminology: lie. If WTJWorg were a scientific organization, then they could talk about their teachings as “mistakes”. But WTJWorg is an expression of the Kingdom of God on Earth and declares itself to be the successor of the First Congregation of Jesus Christ. So, it is of a religious character. And in religion there are only two: truth or lie.
 
 

The question is never "where should we go?" but "whom shall we follow?". We follow (as we are able) Jesus. Now the tough nut, is just how much diversity of conscience and diversity of opinion as to what is an absolute requirement to be considered faithful by Jesus, not by some external entity are we willing to tolerate? If we aren't careful, we'll be creating a cult of one, just ourselves. We absolutely need association with fellow believers, but again, how much diversity are we willing to allow? If we look with a critical eye at the accounts we read of life as a Christian in the first century, we see a lot of diversity and a lot of contention. No one was living their faith in lock-step with each other. People differed as to their opinions on following the law (or not). People were engaging in gossip. People were bad-mouthing their brothers, and Paul and others as well. Everything bad that could happen, did happen then. But they had a core hope. They all agreed that Jesus was the messiah. They had predictions about when the end would come (and they were wrong too). I understand it's harder for some than for others to remain when others don't share their views or when others appear to insist you share theirs. Guess what? The same thing happened in the first century.
So I asked before and I'll ask again. Was your experience all negative, or were there just aspects of it you found you simply couldn't reconcile? What of your beliefs do you have with which you can share with the wider group of people in the world who refer to themselves (and believe it) as "Christians".
Once I was asked by a person I'd called on for years whether I thought it was absolutely necessary to be a card-carrying JW to survive Armageddon. I said "I hope not. Because 27k hours later of talking w/people at the door has let me know how I'm no better (and probably worse) than a lot of people." He then asked "So why are you here then? Why do you do this?" I said "Inertia...that and for the same reason I lift weights and run. The weights don't change and the roads I run on don't change, but I do for the effort. Doing this work changed me and continues to change me, and I'd like to think for the better."

This saying about Armageddon seems acceptable, but it is not. Some JW people chose poorly paid jobs because everything will fall apart anyway so retirement doesn’t matter because Armageddon will come soon. Some did not invest in the maintenance of the house, because it will soon end, why invest in what will be destroyed in Armageddon. The WTJWorg administration, on the other hand, made big plans and investments in real estate construction and then sold them for big money. Most were raised by voluntary contributions from members who gave to the Organization. 
Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.” Mahatma Gandhi. 
 

I have noticed that the desire to see God's promises fulfilled (nothing wrong with that of course), drives the human spirit to "predict" or "hope for" the end always in their life time. The pattern is clear: Russell hoped for the end in 1874 then 1914, Rutherford 1925, Franz 1975, the 80's GB by the end of the 20th century, today's GB between now and aprox. 2035.
Each generation would say their children aren't going to make it to school....now those  children have children of their own...and grandchildren
There are recent discussions on JW talk with brothers and sisters giving this old world no more than 5 years, and there are a few optimistic ones who say within a year. If you were to ask members of your congregation when do they think the end will come, you will hear similar sentiments. Many believe the pandemic will lead straight into the GT.
Of course logically, the end will come in someone's life time, and one day we will be right.
I admire Isaac Newton because his "prediction" defied the rules of wishing for it in one's lifetime. For that reason he seems more believable. But of course I hope he is wrong...because of course I would like it to happen in our lifetime! Oh, the irony of it! 😂
It is not wrong to hope for good things to come, what is wrong is our serving God only for that reason, and building our hope up to the point of expectation delayed making us sick.
You have probably heard this sentiment before, it's great, and I like to remind myself of it periodically: "Plan ahead as if Armageddon won't come in your lifetime, but live your life as if it will come tomorrow"

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables."  2 Tim 4:3,4
 

I wouldn't agree with a setting like this, Anna. There are things, in both religion and science, that could be called dogmas. In earlier science, such as that of the Middle Ages, there were “scientific assumptions” completely contrary to today’s understanding and evidence. In one significant part, correct me if I am wrong, the former science was in the hands of religious systems that claimed to have knowledge of “divine” origin, and therefore that knowledge was “infallible”.
Today, we have a different science. It is beyond the reach of religion. Even contrary to religious teachings. It is based on a different approach, methods and insights. Therefore, we will not say that scientific discoveries are "false or true" as in religion, but that they are "correct or inaccurate", because new evidence can confirm or change previous conclusions.
It is different with religion. We always have the same basic premise, and that is, “All knowledge comes from God,” and he determines what is right and wrong, what is true and false.
In religious matters, teachings, and conclusions, people supposedly rely entirely on the Word of God, and therefore such conclusions and dogmas are "true," for God is a God of truth, not falsehood. A lie is a deliberate untruth. There is no room for error here because we accidentally made a mistake. Religious leaders do not introduce any teaching or instruction with words that warn the flock in advance of the possibility of future changes in doctrine or give room for possible errors in doctrines. No, no religion does that. Also, even GB in WTJWorg never distances itself in advance from the fact that everything they say may be wrong. The “truth” is always published in WTJWorg, according to their own claims in the literature.
Subsequent changes in the interpretation of previous interpretations are called “new light” which illuminates “old light”. No one in WTJWorg called “old light” a real name within religious i.e. biblical terminology: lie. If WTJWorg were a scientific organization, then they could talk about their teachings as “mistakes”. But WTJWorg is an expression of the Kingdom of God on Earth and declares itself to be the successor of the First Congregation of Jesus Christ. So, it is of a religious character. And in religion there are only two: truth or lie.
 
 

As a JW?  As an elder?  As a member of an organization that required your "dedication"?  No.
Jesus is the only "gate".  It is a direct path.  Any other "path" is a thief that can rob us of eternal life. (John 10:7-10) The organization is not our mediator to reach the Father.  (Acts 4:11,12)
Maybe you know this; and if you do, surely you realize that no one can serve two masters.  (Matt 6:24)  However, as an elder, you are serving the needs of an organization, and the men who guide it.  You are serving a fake Zion, while obeying the GB's orders to oppress the true "Zion"/"holy city" - the anointed priesthood.  (1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1,2)  You have fallen into the lie that the "royal priesthood" can be "represented" by the elder body.  (2 Chron 13:9; Ezek 44:6-9)
These members are part of the Body of Jesus Christ. (1 Cor 12)  So, whatever is committed against them, is equally committed against Jesus.  Something to think about, as a "follower" of Jesus.  (Dan 8:25; Acts 9:1-5; Rev 9:4,5; 13:5-7)
You had said it would be difficult to worship outside of an organization.  The difficulty comes when leaving it - leaving the life you have developed, and the people who would subsequently shun you...behind.  It is like the true Christians that fled to the mountains of Judea before Jerusalem was destroyed.  They made similar sacrifices, but they were blessed abundantly. (Matt 10:39; 19:29; Luke 14:26; 12:53)
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Your whole comment was nicely said.  Thank you!
It’s not my asking for perfection, it is the desire to know the God of Truth and His Son who is Truth.  It would be dishonoring to both of them, to accept the untruths - lies -  of men. The “new light” mentality, has nothing to do with the Word of God, but everything to do with the words of uninspired men who fail to receive understanding from Christ.   He promised it to those who remain with him. (John 15:5) How many years does it take for someone to realize their spiritual leaders are not receiving the correct understanding from Christ?

The unfolding of your words gives light;
    it gives understanding to the simple.”  Ps 119:130
How often has the organization backtracked in the "understanding” of their own doctrine? 
Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. 17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. 18 Whoever speaks on their own does so to gain personal glory, but he who seeks the glory of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.”  John 7:16-18 
 Nothing false to be found in a man of truth. Can you say that about your leadership?  
 

This answer really isn’t for you, since you are so stuck in your organization, and all the delight you experience because of it, that I doubt you will see any spiritual logic.(I so wish you could)  But, perhaps those who visit here, who are waking up, can relate.   Oh, I can always hope...that perhaps Anna, who sometimes walks precariously around Wt's doctrines, will some day take a side for the authentic "truth" in Christ.  (John 14:6)
As always, JWs compare themselves, their ”spirit-directed organization”, and its failures, to other organizations, religions, and now… “science, technology medicine, relationships etc.”!
When was the last time you  really read the Bible?  What did Jesus promise those chosen to be part of his Body, and who “remained” in him?
Matt 7:7; 18:19,20; John 14:12-14,26; 15:5; 16:23,24; 1 John 2:20-21  
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+7%3A7%3B+18%3A19%2C20%3B+John+14%3A12-14%2C26%3B+15%3A5%3B+16%3A23%2C24%3B+1+John+2%3A20-21&version=NIV
 
539 A.D.
1780
1798
1799
1829
1840
1844
1846
1872
1874
1878
1880
1881
1891
1906
1910
1914
1915
1917
1918
1920
1921
1925
1926
1928
1932
1935
1940s
1951
1975
2000
Dates, now worthless and dropped like rocks in a pond.  They were all “visions” of your leaders’ minds.  And you think God has turned a blind eye to your leaders misleading thousands with their theories?  You believe He is that flexible about unrighteous acts, which is another word for “ungodliness”?
“Therefore, this is what the Lord of Armies says concerning the prophets:
I am about to feed them wormwood
and give them poisoned water to drink,
for from the prophets of Jerusalem
ungodliness has spread throughout the land.
16 This is what the Lord of Armies says: “Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you. They are deluding you. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the Lord’s mouth. 17 They keep on saying to those who despise me, ‘The Lord has spoken: You will have peace.’ They have said to everyone who follows the stubbornness of his heart, ‘No harm will come to you.’” Jer 23:15-17
Is this why you love the organization in spite of its false teachings?  Do you believe that it is the haven of peace and security that it touts to be?  (1 Thess 5:3)
 
Like a brush ready to be dipped in the pot, “new light” is frequently held in the hand of your leaders. (Isa 44:20)  They apply this convenient coating over the “old light”, to sustain their position and their “tower” built with walls layered with “new light” reinforcement. (Gen 11:4; Isa 2:12-17)   It is only a coverup of what lies in their hearts. God reads each heart. (Luke 6:45)  You can see what God thinks in this one Bible account of the ancient practice of applying “new light”.  In this account, it is referred to as “whitewash”.   
 “‘Therefore, this is what the Lord God says: You have spoken falsely and had lying visions; that’s why you discover that I am against you. This is the declaration of the Lord God. 9 My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and speak lying divinations. They will not be present in the council of my people or be recorded in the register of the house of Israel, and they will not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord God.
10 “‘Since they have led my people astray by saying, “Peace,” when there is no peace, and since when a flimsy wall is being built, they plaster it with whitewash, 11 therefore, tell those plastering it with whitewash that it will fall. Torrential rain will come, and I will send hailstones plunging[a] down, and a whirlwind will be released. 12 When the wall has fallen, will you not be asked, “Where’s the whitewash (“new light”) you plastered on it?”  Ezek 13:8-12
If JWs truly were not subservient to men, they would not be in the organization.  The elders, have immediate power to condemn anyone who may say, "I will only serve God and Christ", since these men expect immediate obedience.  And YOU are taught this. JWs will always be subservient to men only.  
Subservient: -“ prepared to obey others unquestioningly.”
“For example, Jehovah wants family members to obey the head of the family. (Col. 3:20) And he wants those in the congregation to obey the elders.” w21 February p. 17-18
Do I obey the elders in my congregation and also those who care for the worldwide congregation?’ w14/9/15 p 9-14
“How can we display our gratitude and esteem for the older men—elders, or overseers—in the congregation? ... Yes, we are to obey them and be submissive, to yield, to them.” w02 3/15 pp. 13-18
 
“Am I now trying to win the approval of human beings, or of God? Or am I trying to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.”  Gal 1:10
There doesn't appear to be any room to obey/please/win the approval of... men, according to this scripture.  (Rom 6:16)
 
Should We Obey Men?
 
 

You have nicely shown that the biblical text (about Armageddon) can be understood in a completely different way than the one offered by WTJWorg.

You have nicely shown that the biblical text (about Armageddon) can be understood in a completely different way than the one offered by WTJWorg.

When I think of a religion lying I think of a recent example of the fds and rank & file telling the public and under oath that they do not cut off and shun family members and in the same year come out with a video about the expected behavior of parents cutting off and shunning their own daughter. When a religion is willing to blatantly tell very obvious lie, they will be willing to lie about other things. 

@TrueTomHarley  It appears that the HATRED is coming from you.  This time aimed at Witness. Other times aimed at me or others. 
And @Witness offers her views on spiritual matters far more than you ever do. All you do is promote yourself and your books. 
 
 
 

In 1975, people were commended for selling their houses and preparing for Armageddon to arrive within that year. Of course, their inclination based on numbers was wrong.   But after listening to the third part of the annual meeting, I believe “Armageddon” is a long way off in their eyes, and the GB prefer that way.  There are too many earthly projects they need to address and accomplish.  Besides, perhaps in the deep recesses of their minds, they don't want to face Christ.  Do they have the power to stall the coming judgment concerning their works and faith in an organization?  
How do they reckon with this statement that their organization has made:
"As Christians, we face up to similar challenges today. We cannot take part in any modern version of idolatry—be it worshipful gestures toward an image or symbol or the imputing of salvation to a person or an organization."   26 "Our Relative Subjection to the Superior Authorities"   Wt 1990/11/1 p. 26
Most of the video concerned a new project that will take "years" to complete.  This was said with emphasis by A. Morris.  It was also emphasized to "pleeese support it according to your circumstances" by S. Lett.  So, there are many new projects  to support! (the Ramipo facility as well)
I'm amazed at their hypocritical speech; yes, according to them, the GT and Armageddon is imminent on the one hand, while this video production will take a very long time to produce...AND, as stated, will bring many into "Jehovah's organization".  It will be a series of videos on the gospels, entitled the "good news according to Jesus".  "Jehovah" is helping to make it happen - they already have evidence of that!  Do they know that the Mormon church has produced quality videos about the gospels already?  Was God instrumental in making those happen?  It only takes actors and money; and they're already training their up and coming stars now, while pleading for money at the same time.  
In the interim, the anointed spiritual "house" of God, is ignored, and trampled into silence to make room for a bigger, greater, "modern day idol."  (Dan 11:31; Mark 13:14; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1,2; 13:5-7)
“Is it a time for you yourselves to dwell in your houses that have been paneled while this house[a] is desolate?”  Haggai 1:4
Footnote:  [a] "that is, the temple".  
(John 2:19-22; Matt 16:18; Isa 43:10-12; 1 Pet 2:5,9,10; 1 Cor 3:16,17; 6:19-20; Eph 2:20-22)
 
 
 

I would comment this way. Example: Birthday and celebrating a birthday is not “satanic”. But wishing someone’s death as a birthday wish is certainly “satanic”.
The discovery of a new communication technique and resources (clay tablets, paper, pens, analog and digital notation and everything that will be invented in the future) cannot simply be described as "divine" or "satanic". All of these things are mostly or completely “neutral” at their core.
Producing a weapon with the intent to kill causes some questions. Whether these weapons were created to defend their own lives or to hunt for food or to conquer and enslave or destroy, we can say that the weapon is dangerous. But if one uses a weapon to save or defend one’s life, then it is difficult to attribute any or specific origin to such a weapon.
I would say that the intention and purpose is in the hands (mind, emotion) of the user, and the one in whose hands the "tool" is, can to some extent be classified in some category.

Yes, but he was his own boss :))

When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened. - Jonah 3 10
God relented, changed his mind and his intention. What if JW preaching service will be faced with same sort of decision about "Armageddon" in the future? 

Anything is possible!

An untruth never becomes "brighter".  It is pure darkness. (2 Cor 6:14)  So, if the organization has “not always taught the truth”, it has taught a dark lie.  There is absolutely no light of Christ, in a lie that would hint at the possibility of becoming “brighter”.  
And back to the opening scriptures, “trees” were referred to as God's people under covenant - today, it is those of "Israel", the priesthood. (Matt 7:15-20; Mal 2:7; 1 Pet 2:5,9)  If an anointed leader of yours has repeatedly taught AND predicted, something that was not the truth; unless he leaves off lying by severing himself from the lying organization, (that to this day supports the previous leaders who spoke their lies), he will always teach lies. He will always produce "bad fruit". 
The organization to this day, does not teach “the truth”.
"bitter"?  Why is it when someone brings Wt's lies to the fore, they are viewed as  "bitter"? 
Listen to Paul, and tell me, were his words bitter?
The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 6 And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete. 2 Cor 10:4-6
I am thankful to God and Jesus Christ,  that I am no longer subservient to men, and to their lies. (Isa 51:21-23; Matt 24:48-51; Rev 18:4-8)

Yes, but he was his own boss :))

When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened. - Jonah 3 10
God relented, changed his mind and his intention. What if JW preaching service will be faced with same sort of decision about "Armageddon" in the future? 

The message that Jonah gave the people, "in the strictest sense", was not a lie.  They heard the message that originated with God, and they repented.  Where is the lie?  
And the people of Nineveh believed in God, and they proclaimed a fast and put on sackcloth—from the greatest of them to the least important.
And the news reached the king of Nineveh, and he rose from his throne and removed his royal robe, put on sackcloth, and sat in the ashes. 7 And he had a proclamation made, and said,
“In Nineveh, by a decree of the king and his nobles:
“No human being or animal, no herd or flock, shall taste anything! They must not eat, and they must not drink water! 8 And the human beings and the animals must be covered with sackcloth! And they must call forcefully to God, and each must turn from his evil way and from the violence that is in his[f] hands. 9 Who knows? God may relent and change his mind and turn from his blazing anger[g] so that[h] we will not perish.”
10 And God saw their deeds—that they turned from their evil ways—and God changed his mind about the evil that he had said he would bring upon them, and he did not do it.  Jonah 3:3-10
Are you calling God a liar?  
 
Yes!
Just as the organization doesn't know what its talking about concerning many of their doctrines.  "This generation" teaching is a complete failure;  but continues to mislead people with its variations on a theme - that being from the beginning, it has been a lie.
I like this quote:  “Lies require commitment.”  The Wt is committed to feed their lies, with more lies.
Thus says the YHVH of hosts, “You must not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you. They are deluding you with visions of their mind, They do not speak from the mouth of YHVH.  Jer 23:16
This is a command that hold true today.  If JWs continue to listen to men and their organization that  has prophesied lies, and still  prophesies lies, they will have to answer for it.  JWs speak the same lies they are taught, no?  THEY are as guilty of misleading others with lies, as are the leadership, since we stand as individuals before Christ in judgment.  
The good person from his good treasury brings out good things, and the evil person from his evil treasury brings out evil things. 36 But I tell you that every worthless word that they speak, people will give an account for it on the day of judgment! 37 For by your words you will be vindicated, and by your words you will be condemned.”  Matt 12:35-37
"visions of their own mind"..."worthless words that they speak". 
You've got two examples of delusionary teachings in the opening post, how many more would you like?  And how many excuses will there be, to dismiss a lie taught by the organization?