Srecko Sostar

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Next issue:
As i mentioned before, about testing, we have interesting Bible report. About testing human. One test was in Garden with Tree, Adam and Eve. Next testing, according to WTJWorg is at the end of Jesus Kingdom. 
Here we have 2 Divine Testing and only humans are included. Nothing about "spiritual beings". But as Bible said rebellion started with angels, not human. Well, is "perfection" of human Adam and Eve, and "perfection" of people at the end of 1000 years "smaller" than "perfection" of angels which have never been tested and never will, because Bible said nothing about it?   
As JWI said, we can see how there are several causes of death that we (humans) experienced. Perhaps those sort of "deaths" will be "destroyed". 

Good question. I guess we both know that WT teaches that only those resurrected to heaven will have immortality. It teaches that Jesus was not initially immortal when he was created, and neither were the angels. In fact nothing that Jehovah created seemed to have been immortal. Which begs the question, what was Jehovah's purpose with regard to that? If humans hadn't sinned, and Jesus hadn't needed to give his life as a ransom, would he still be mortal? He only became immortal as a "reward" for his obedience. So perhaps that means that if Adam & Eve had passed the test, they could also have been given immortality (as a reward)? So it is reasonable to say that after mankind passes the final test Jehovah might give them immorality as a reward. Possibly that could have been his purpose for Adam & Eve*. I'm just shooting from the hip here without any scriptural references

We are assuming that in the future all of Jehovah's perfect creatures will NEVER sin and ALWAYS do the right thing. But what IF one of them doesn't? After all, Satan and the Demons were once perfect. So if they are immortal they will not be able to be destroyed, but Jehovah could exile them somewhere. But that gets into the realms of fairy tales. A Pandora's box kind of thing. But it's possible...Again, I have not looked for any scriptural backing for that theory. The only thing I can think of is the symbolic prison and spiritual darkness of Tartarus. But that begins sounding like the concept of "Hell".....
And sorry, yes, that's another topic 😄
* But then what about their children? Would they inherit immortality from their parents? That's doesn't sound right..

Of course !! Every "normal worldly human" have no specific reason to understand and to accept JW abnormal rule that makes separation and difference about family member who living in house, out house, in a basement or on first floor, near house or on other planet. Family member is family member, alive or dead, JW or non-JW or ex-JW.

If we put this observation and conclusion on "next level", it is similar how elders showing "cowardice" and not reporting CSA to the ONLY AUTHORITY that is in charge to deal with CRIMES according to Romans 13 ... to the "secular authorities".
Well obviously , WTJWorg have problem in detecting what is "sin" and what is "crime".

Very deep thinking @Srecko Sostar .   It raises the question, Can spirit persons be killed ?  Will the Devil and his Demons be killed or just restricted permanently ? Revelation 20 v 14 says 
New International Version
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
New Living Translation
Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death.
Now this is all symbolic of course. Death and the Grave cannot literally be thrown into the Lake of Fire, as the lake of fire isn't a real lake, and Death isn't an object which could be thrown.  So, do we actually know if spirit persons can literally be killed ?  English Standard Version
and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Berean Study Bible
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.   Now why would Revelation say that they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. ???   The Bible tells us that 'The dead are conscious of nothing at all'. But that is human dead it is referring to.    I suppose one point about 'death in heaven' is that the Devil and his Demons have been cast down to the Earth. So they can no longer enter heaven. Now, do we know if ALL the Angels have been tested ?    Another point is Do we know exactly when ALL the Angels were tested ? The CCJW presume it was 1914.    Perhaps there are things which are none of our business. Perhaps we will never know the answers as those situations are between Almighty God / Christ and those Angels.    Srecko, on your point of death never existing. I would think from the creation of animal life, that death existed. Animals dying naturally or being killed by other animals. Otherwise the earth would have become overpopulated with animals. And i think later Adam and Eve would have seen animal death so as to know what death was.   

Matthew 18:15-17 15"If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Do you mean this one ? Well this scripture proves that your GB disobeys scripture.  Because your GB or previous leaders have imposed such secrecy into the procedure of disciplining.  The 'church' or congregation do not have any facts or details but are still expected to shun people, just on the say so of Elders / CO's decisions. 
NOW imagine if every Paedophile accusation had been told to the church, to the congregation as a whole. Then no one could have been accused of hiding Paedophiles in the congregations, AND no Paedophile would have had the opportunity to prey on more than one victim. 
So remember those words at Matthew 18 v 17  TELL IT TO THE CHURCH. 
Even though your GB decided to change that scripture to this :-
17  If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector
Whereas all the others say this :-
New International Version
If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

English Standard Version
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Berean Study Bible
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Berean Literal Bible
And if he fails to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he fails to listen to even to the church, let him be to you as the pagan and the tax collector.

New American Standard Bible
"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

New King James Version
And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

King James Bible
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Do you understand now ? 
 

I've asked to see these Scriptures quoted on here.  All those supposedly direct scriptures about Shunning. So come on lets see them. 
Show me a scripture which refers to a person of good Bible trained conscience  leaving an immoral organisation and why that person should be shunned, when it is not that person that has committed sin but the Leaders of that organisation and people in that organisation that has committed the sins........... I think @Witness said , it is us that should be shunning the CCJW and it's GB. But no, the GB make rules so that we cannot show proof to JWs exactly how perverted the CCJW really is. But my conscience is clear in that I make it known the best ways i can, to try to help people stay safe from Paedophiles and from the lies taught in the CCJW.  

Yes, the GB appear to be "strict and righteous" as the presumed "faithful and discreet slave".  
Jesus focused on the individual and that one’s spiritual health.  The GB/elder body appears to focus on the individual, (using scripture laced with WT doctrine)  and I believe there are sincere elders who really try to “adjust” a sinner; yet, ultimately, the underlying decision to be made, is not according to the spiritual health of the sinner, but the projected appearance of the organization itself.  So, shunning is established and the elders are finished with “readjusting”.   If they can’t make this person mold to the decrees of the organization, (which they must) that person is no longer an active “part” of the congregation, or as we know, an active “part” of his or her family.   
If the organization's decrees and ruler-ship are challenged, when one is "healed" of their spiritual blindness and can see Jesus Christ and the Father much more clearly, they are "cast" out - shunned.  It reminds me of the event in John chapter 9, and the blind man healed by Christ.  The Pharisees were furious that this man confronted them with their own spiritual blindness.
 The man answered and said to them, “Why, this is a marvelous thing, that you do not know where He is from; yet He has opened my eyes! 31 Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him. 32 Since the world began it has been unheard of that anyone opened the eyes of one who was born blind. 33 If this Man were not from God, He could do nothing.”
34 They answered and said to him, “You were completely born in sins, and are you teaching us?” And they [f]cast him out.   John 9:30-34
 [f] "Excommunicated him" 
And today, how dare we come against the leadership of the organization and teach them about Jesus Christ!  
As we've mentioned in the past, elders who leave the WT, have many times expressed guilt for their decisions made in judicial committees, which are based on organizational rules.  Jesus was teaching “new wine”, which the WT refuses to embrace. (Matt 9:17)  Calling it God’s organization, when Jesus was the perfect “image” of God, and taught forgiveness and love, shows how little the GB “know” YHVH and Jesus Christ.  
 
 Then they asked him, “Where is your father?”
“You do not know me or my Father,” Jesus replied. “If you knew me, you would know my Father also.” John 8:19
 
 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?  John 14:9
 
“The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.”  Col 1:15
 
 
 
 
https://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2013/02/jehovahs-genuine-mountain.html
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Thank you @Srecko Sostar I hadn't seen this information anywhere before, but I'm sure God and Christ are watching the GB and it's Org closely, and hopefully justice will be done soon. 

Very interesting piece of news.
The Catholic church is turning over a new leaf and doing what is ethically correct.
 

part of text:
Collaboration between Church and state
The importance of collaboration between the Church and state is a fourth aspect covered in the Vademecum. It brings up, for example, that “even in cases where there is no explicit legal obligation to do so, the ecclesiastical authorities should make a report to the competent civil authorities if this is considered necessary to protect the person involved or other minors from the danger of further criminal acts.” In addition, it reiterates that “the investigation should be carried out with respect for the civil laws of each state”. - https://www.vaticannews.va/en/vatican-city/news/2020-07/vademecum-procedures-cases-sexual-abuse-minors-clergy.html

Please, if i omitted to put Bible verse/s to bake my opinion, would you be so kind to put: 
Bible verse/s that clearly said
1) how you have to shun dfd family member who don't living under same roof with faithful family members?
and Bible verse that clearly said
2) how you can talk with dfd family member who living under same roof with faithful family members?
If you would not be able to provide such scriptures than i will politely ask you to not make claim how i am person who denying scriptures (in fact scriptures that not exist in reality). Only existing thing is WTJWorg extended interpretations of Bible verses.
 
PS Your and WTJWorg extended interpretations are so similar with examples of Jew who want to be very strict and righteous about Law which forbade working on Sabbath. And They made explanations with long list of what work is and what work is not. :)))

Of course !! Every "normal worldly human" have no specific reason to understand and to accept JW abnormal rule that makes separation and difference about family member who living in house, out house, in a basement or on first floor, near house or on other planet. Family member is family member, alive or dead, JW or non-JW or ex-JW.

If we put this observation and conclusion on "next level", it is similar how elders showing "cowardice" and not reporting CSA to the ONLY AUTHORITY that is in charge to deal with CRIMES according to Romans 13 ... to the "secular authorities".
Well obviously , WTJWorg have problem in detecting what is "sin" and what is "crime".

The National Secular Society has urged Britain's charity regulators to ensure the restructuring of Jehovah's Witnesses (JW) charities does not obstruct victims of child abuse from claiming compensation.
The NSS has raised the issue with the Charity Commission for England and Wales and the Scottish charity regulator, OSCR, after a report on BBC Radio 4's Sunday programme this week.
The programme reported that the church is selling off substantial amounts of property and land that it owns. As part of a significant restructuring of the organisation, each congregation is being asked to dissolve its charitable status and merge – along with its assets – with the Kingdom Hall Trust.
The trust is a registered charity whose aims include being a "custodian trustee holding title to freehold and leasehold properties acquired as places of worship".
The assets mentioned on the Sunday programme included kingdom halls, which are used for worship and meetings.
An abuse survivor and lawyers who spoke to the programme expressed concern that such a restructuring could leave JW charities unable to pay potential liabilities.
A number of JW churches worldwide have been subject to investigations regarding their handling of sexual abuse allegations in recent years. In Australia, JW organisations have consolidated and sold properties worth millions of pounds amid a series of legal claims and a damning report from a royal commission.
NSS comment
NSS chief executive Stephen Evans said: "It is clearly not in the public interest for charities to be permitted to restructure in ways that may impede victims and survivors of abuse within these communities from claiming compensation.
"We therefore urge the Charity Commission to use all available powers to ensure that the restructuring of JW charities does not impede abuse victims' and survivors' ability to obtain settlements."
Jehovah's Witnesses and abuse in Britain
JW communities' handling of abuse allegations will come under increased scrutiny next month, when the Independent Inquiry on Child Sexual Abuse is due to conduct hearings on the issue.
In 2018 scores of alleged victims accused the JWs of a culture of cover-up of child sexual abuse. Earlier this year at least 20 former JWs launched legal action over abuse which they say they suffered.
In 2017 the Charity Commission severely criticised the New Moston Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses in Manchester over its handling of allegations of abuse.
And in 2016 the Supreme Court ruled that the Watch Tower and Bible Tract Society of Great Britain, which oversees JW congregations, couldn't prevent the commission from conducting an inquiry over its handling of abuse allegations.
This week's episode of the Sunday programme is available on the BBC website; listen from 5:20 to 21:45 for the relevant section.

Excellent thought. 
Disfellowshipping is spiritual condemnation.  At times the elders may admit they have wrongly condemned an individual, and it may take years before its notice.  These events are rare.  Condemning one's spirituality isn't to be taken lightly, but for the sake of the cleanliness of the organization, it is commonplace.  
 
"Judge[a] ("Condemn") not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what [b]judgment ("Condemnation") you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."  Matt 7:1-5
 
 
 

If I had been in that same congregation, (not a thousand miles away) I know that as a faithful elder's wife I would have not even conceived covering up the wrongdoing.  
Well, Arauna, believe what you want.  I must tell you that I tend to agree with @4Jah2me that you are a very bitter person.  I have my doubts about this statement of yours:  
"Sorry if I come across that way. I am the least bitter person you can ever meet. Sweet, friendly and open... no bitterness."
But, I give you the benefit of the doubt, knowing you suffer from arthritis.  One day can be good, the next, miserable.  I know pain can be a barometer gauging one's attitude for the day.
 
What kind of people?  Repeat offenders? I've already covered that.  I am sorry to say, you already mix with repeat offenders.  It's quite obvious if you care to look.  They are spiritual "harlots" who lead you in falsehoods.  (Rev 13:11,12; 17:1-6)
As I said earlier - 
Do you have the ability to read every heart?  Does the elder body?  Did Jesus shun sinners?
"Now it happened, as He was dining in Levi’s house, that many tax collectors and sinners also sat together with Jesus and His disciples; for there were many, and they followed Him. 16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw Him eating with the tax collectors and sinners, they said to His disciples, “How is it that He eats and drinks with tax collectors and sinners?”
17 When Jesus heard it, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” Mark 2:15-17
 
 
 

Please, if i omitted to put Bible verse/s to bake my opinion, would you be so kind to put: 
Bible verse/s that clearly said
1) how you have to shun dfd family member who don't living under same roof with faithful family members?
and Bible verse that clearly said
2) how you can talk with dfd family member who living under same roof with faithful family members?
If you would not be able to provide such scriptures than i will politely ask you to not make claim how i am person who denying scriptures (in fact scriptures that not exist in reality). Only existing thing is WTJWorg extended interpretations of Bible verses.
 
PS Your and WTJWorg extended interpretations are so similar with examples of Jew who want to be very strict and righteous about Law which forbade working on Sabbath. And They made explanations with long list of what work is and what work is not. :)))

I think how GB silly excuses going in this way: "we are rowing", "we are not inspired", we can err", "sometimes brothers and sisters who reading publications are overzealous, "apostles had wrong expectations so sometimes JW's have had wrong expectations", etc. 

I think i would "agree" with GB who said how internet (in fact :)) JWorg official site and JW library), is very dangerous place for true Christians aka JW members. WTJWorg IT experts can remove "spiritual food" from your "table" (a well-laden table of nourishing spiritual food served at the right time.) which is coming "from JHVH through Jesus through GB" and make it to disappear. That it looks as if something has never even been spiritual food  available for hungry and thirsty individuals who are "poor in spirit" as Bible said. When "this generation" (people who have good memory and know what was before and what was after) pass, not one of JW member in the future will never know nothing about this and other "clarifications".  
Amazing thing, internet! A supreme means of deceiving, cheating the people. 

I really don't get why you need to involve other people's, mine in this matter, emotions. I am speaking with you and other people here, not because i like you or not like you. We discuss, at the moment, about how WT lawyer represent your organization on what he use to "prove" your activity and practice. 
Your publications, edited, printed, published by WTJWorg and scattered with help of members and internet shows (i put some of them in previous comment) without any doubt that words "shun" and "shunning" are part of "clear language" in JW "spiritual paradise". Why you have need to contradict and deny it ?? It’s easier to admit and then we’ll start a new topic.   

Quote CC Matthew 18:15-17 15"If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector. But the CCJW don't follow this procedure. They do it all in secret. So no one in the congregation knows truth from lies. And when someone leaves of their own choice, the GB and Elders are too frightened to tell the congregation that someone actually chose to leave. 
Funnily enough Jesus chose Matthew and he was a Tax Collector. 

Always blame-shifting. 
“What is Blame-Shifting? Escaping responsibility. . . Blame-shifting is an emotionally abusive behavior or tactic.
Blame-shifting or “blaming the victim” is a form of context switching and crazy making. When you are confronting them on something they did or attempting to set boundaries, they switch the whole focus back to you, and thus put you on the defensive. Now the focus is on you and they slither  (Isa 59:8) away. This gets you way off track and off balance right where they want you–derailed. Clever huh, unless you are on the receiving end of this crazy making.” 
And on a sadder level of this blameshifting, concerning child abuse:
In order to discredit a victim, an abuser will often blame the victim for their own actions, even going so far as to say the victim is in fact the one who committed the abuse. This may cause the victim to feel defeated or like they are losing their mind. In a particularly weakened state, the victim may even believe they are at fault. Abusers often claim friends, family, mental health professionals, church leaders or other authorities are in agreement with them, which has the effect of isolating the victim and preventing the victim from getting help.
Now the abuser has all the power and control over the victim and their relationship.  
Blame-shifting is a way to escape taking responsibility." 
 https://www.thehaguepsychologist.nl/what-is-blame-shifting-escaping-responsibility/
 
Wow, the entire organization is guilty of blameshifting in several ways, throughout its hierarchy.  I’ll bet there is a WT article about this… 
Indeed, there is: ‘You Must Be Holy Because I Am Holy’  Wt 96/8/1 pp 10-14
“Jesus clearly taught that what is in the heart will become evident by what a person says and does.” 
It quotes Matthew 12:34; 15:18-20.
“Holiness is not achieved by taking the line of least resistance or by being self-indulgent. That kind of person will always make excuses for his conduct and try to place the blame elsewhere. Perhaps we need to learn to become responsible for our actions and not be like some who allege that fate stacked the deck against them because of family background or genetics… (we are not inspired, we can err)
 The root of the matter lies in the heart of the individual. Does he or she love righteousness? yearn for holiness? desire God’s blessing? The psalmist made the need for holiness clear when he said: “Turn away from what is bad, and do what is good; seek to find peace, and pursue it.” The apostle Paul wrote: “Let your love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is wicked, cling to what is good.”—Psalm 34:14; 97:10; Romans 12:9.
 
Obviously, anyone who loves righteousness, yearns for holiness and desires God's blessing, has the valid right to "shun" the GB and the entire leadership for their hypocrisy and blameshifting.

WT Lawyer David Gnam explicit claim and argument in court is how the words “shun and shunning” do not exist in the vocabulary and practice of the JW church.
He mixing spiritual and personal needs/life, but that is not problem, because both is not separate. Must exist together . And i do not have to "justify" nothing about it because of same reasons.  
Siting near other persons and singing together with other persons (David Gnam statement) and much more than this two, belongs to that same category you named - "spiritual and personal". Why you need me to make "explanation" or "justification" on this?? I really don't understand.
What i "don't understand"  is, why lawyer David Gnam Exposé  on Court about JW religious beliefs and practice is opposite of what JW doing !!
 

As I mentioned before, in comment to Arauna, my primary response is about WT Lawyer and his false presentation of reality about dfd and shunning ! If you have something about it we can continue with conversation. Have no interest, temporary, arguing about this JW religious ideology and doctrine. Thanks!