Srecko Sostar

@Space Merchant  I am not frightened to mention you by name, why should I be ?
It was more the use of sarcasm not to mention your name, and look it got a reaction .
I tend to disagree with most things you say, but I laugh too, because you try so hard to come across as someone who is superior. 
I know for myself that i am an individual. It matter not to me if you and others feel the need to add me to some 'make believe' 'collective'. 
I did quite like this bit though :-
A more in-depth definition is: A governing body is a group of people that has the authority to exercise governance over an organization or political entity. The most formal is a government, a body whose sole responsibility and authority is to make binding decisions in a given geopolitical system (such as a state) by establishing laws.
Now here in the UK the ruling Government has an opposition party. I know very little about politics but I do know there are two 'houses', the House of Lords and the House of Commons. So there is debate and questioning.  Also the people of the UK can vote for a different government every 5 years. And, parliament can be dissolved in some cases.  
However the Governing Body of CCJW  rules over millions of people without debate and questioning. Those 8 men that has the authority to exercise governance, and are a body whose sole responsibility and authority is to make binding decisions,  cannot be removed, according to some JWs on this forum. 
They have given themselves the title 'Faithful and Discreet Slave', and they cannot be disfellowshipped by other JWs.  
But you seem to think that is ok, however you do not want to become a JW .
I totally disagree with most of what you say SM, but. Have a good day. 
 

Stephen Lett:
“Let’s discuss how the faithful and discreet slave has worked tirelessly to keep on the watch and really try to help us do the same. Let’s just talk about some of this documented evidence that this is certainly the case. Now it’s true the faithful slave at times have had wrong expectations THROUGHOUT THE DECADES.
But then again we talked about earlier that was true of the apostles. In Acts chapter 1:8, “Lord are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time”?
“See, that was the wrong expectation, wasn’t it.”
 
There is no comparison of the apostles’ question to Jesus and how WT leaders have taught their followers.  The apostles were not preaching various dates throughout the decades; but as students under their Head Master, they listened, learned and were obedient to his direction. Lett is using deceit to smooth over decades of false prophesy.  He purposefully left out the next verse.
 He said to them: ‘It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.”
 Clear "documented evidence" shows pervasive lack of obedience to Christ's words, practiced throughout the lineage of WT's leaders.  

Even the voice of S. Lett made me to visual his facial expressions ... it is impossible to erase picture of him giving the talk, ... must be some sort of OCD in my head :))))) 

"If you look in the backyard of the Watchtower Society you will see a trashpile of teachings that were presented to every man woman and child on this earth as a teaching of God, the Almighty.  Those churches that were not teaching it, were not teaching the “truth”. 
 
 

Like...a smoke alarm?
Your browser does not support the HTML5 audio tag.
 

What? None of them making tents? :)))

What? None of them making tents? :)))

Watchtower 1952 Nov 15 p.703 -  "Being limited by the laws of the worldly nation in which we live and also by the laws of God through Jesus Christ, we can take action against apostates only to a certain extent, that is, consistent with both sets of laws. The law of the land and God's law through Christ forbid us kill apostates, even though they be members of our own flesh-and-blood family relationship. However, God's law requires us to recognize their being disfellowshiped from his congregation, and this despite the fact that the law of the land in which we live requires us under some natural obligation to live with and have dealings with such apostates under the same roof. Satan's influence through the disfellowshiped member of the family will be to cause the other member or members of the family who are in the truth to join the disfellowshiped member in his course or in his position toward God's organization. To do this would be disastrous, and so the faithful family member must recognize and conform to the disfellowship order. How would or could this be done while living under the same roof or in personal, physical contact daily with the disfellowshiped? In this way: By refusing to have religious relationship with the disfellowshiped." 
 
Dear Anna,
Is the above teaching, "new light", or "new" darkness?   I hope you have thoroughly read it.   It is a total, severe turnaround in beliefs concerning disfellowshipping/excommunication, that shows a significant, serious, sign of mental imbalance by WT’s leaders' which occurred within five brief years after the article below was published.  This obvious imbalance affects every JW over the years down to today in only negative ways.   Yet, with one swipe of the tongue any other anointed one, is easily condemned as being "mentally ill". 
Once, as a harrowed mother of three small boys, I wore two different shoes to the meeting.  I can just imagine the rumors that flew about my own "imbalance".  In those days, no one was aware of my anointing, but if they had been, it is very possible that many of my actions would have been interpreted as signs of mental illness. All, because I was striving to be a model wife of an elder, keeping three rambunctious children in line as expected of me by the organization.   The organization itself, can be the catalyst that drives a member to suffer from mental illness.   Its leaders are responsible for fomenting the idea that anointed are most likely mentally ill. 
 
 
 
 

WT publications explained something about similar on "anointed". While they are on earth and imperfect as any other human, they would be able to understand, from heaven, same sort of people they used to be in the past. :))
Malenfant sort and model of argumentation was for one purpose only,  to show how exclusively GB is "appointed for sure" and have something to say. Contrary, every other appointed JW member have to be in question and under suspicion about his "call".

If it is advice to be as Paul, ....than why all this people in WT branches living on other people money donations?!
Don't you think how your response on this ex pioneer letter is inappropriate. GB members, and Lett specifically, publicly asking for more donation, money. Why he and other in his team not get secular jobs and give money from own salaries?? That would be better way to show "trust" in JHVH. And not just better way, but according to "inspired" Paul Letters. Mr Lett TV preaching (call for money) is not "inspired", according to WT publications.

Would you give a guess, what would Paul doing today if he would be in JW congregation? What sort of job for living?

If it is advice to be as Paul, ....than why all this people in WT branches living on other people money donations?!
Don't you think how your response on this ex pioneer letter is inappropriate. GB members, and Lett specifically, publicly asking for more donation, money. Why he and other in his team not get secular jobs and give money from own salaries?? That would be better way to show "trust" in JHVH. And not just better way, but according to "inspired" Paul Letters. Mr Lett TV preaching (call for money) is not "inspired", according to WT publications.

If they know that the organization teaches the truth, then how is it PIMOs are those responsible for the information leaked to the exJW community?  Much of this information hits exJWs before it reaches the congregations.  There is no motive to do this if they believe the organization is "the truth".  

There's a term called, PIMO (physically in, mentally out).  Their "will" is to leave the organization, but the leaders have instilled the pervasive fear that by acting upon the will to leave, it will bring an end to all relationships held with loved ones.  
I'm sure you know what I mean.  
Col 2:8 - "See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ."
 
Rev 13:10 - "If anyone is destined for captivity,
into captivity he goes.
If anyone is to be killed with a sword,
with a sword he will be killed.
This demands the perseverance and faith of the saints."
Rev 13:15 - "He (false prophet) was permitted to give a spirit to the image of the beast (spirit-directed organization), so that the image of the beast could both speak and cause whoever would not worship the image of the beast to be killed."
Disfellowshipping is a spiritual death.  
"Being limited by the laws of the worldly nation in which we live and also by the laws of God through Jesus Christ, we can take action against apostates only to a certain extent, that is, consistent with both sets of laws. The law of the land and God's law through Christ forbid us kill apostates, even though they be members of our own flesh-and-blood family relationship. However, God's law requires us to recognize their being disfellowshiped from his congregation, and this despite the fact that the law of the land in which we live requires us under some natural obligation to live with and have dealings with such apostates under the same roof. Satan's influence through the disfellowshiped member of the family will be to cause the other member or members of the family who are in the truth to join the disfellowshiped member in his course or in his position toward God's organization. To do this would be disastrous, and so the faithful family member must recognize and conform to the disfellowship order. How would or could this be done while living under the same roof or in personal, physical contact daily with the disfellowshiped? In this way: By refusing to have religious relationship with the disfellowshiped." Watchtower 1952 Nov 15 p.703

It's not changing anything, but showing the organization's hypocrisy in all forms.

It is a sad situation, and can be interprested as a very "extreme" move, which could remind one of Hitler camps.  
But so does this situation: (translated from German).  It makes one wonder what party is more Hitler-like.  
Dear Brothers.
This is my [response] to the way you dismissed me of the Special pioneer service [effective the first of] January 2016. The [fitting] “loving words” cannot reduce my disappointment.
As you mentioned, I experienced a lot of joy and went through a lot of challenges. I was willing to set the kingdom interests first and to [make] sacrifices to serve Jehovah, wherever you thought it is necessary.
In the belief that the end is near and that the organization is [led] by Jehovah’s spirit, I started pioneering in my youth. I [turned down getting] a good education in the hope that the organization needs me. Jehovah is the best employer, as I was told.
And now you decided that my special pioneer service will end [on the first of] January 2016. I ask myself what changed that you do not need my service anymore after nearly 30 years?
I am astonished that you advise me to serve as an normal pioneer in the future. If the end is near, why is my service as [a special pioneer] not necessary anymore? Is it the money? Am I too expensive for the organization?
Do you need the money, which is donated to support the preaching work for other activities? For example for building projects, like Warwick or temple farms? I really feel betrayed and exploited.
It seems to be the case that some buildings projects are more important for the “slave” than humans, who try to help others. Your offer to release me from my duty to reach the monthly hours goal, that I can do necessary things like looking for a job or for living, is really generous. Until January you want to pay my allowance as usual.
Really generous of you! To be honest it feels like a hit in my face or a kick in my ass.
I have no financial back up in my age and no education. I can probably not expect any support from my family, as they warned me [about getting into special pioneering].
As you mentioned, I did not expect this decision and I do not believe anymore that the Governing Body or the Branch Office are really valuing the work I did.
Your encouragement to trust at Jehovah sounds like derision. As I thought Jehovah provides for his servants through his organization. You do not want to lose my service and my experience, but you do not want to spend a single dollar for it anymore.
How else could I interpret this sentence? Quote: “In view of the valuable experience you have gained in your ministry, we hope your circumstances will allow you to engage in the regular pioneering”… “In that way, your full time service will not be interrupted. As a regular pioneer, you may choose the congregation in which you want to serve; however, we hope that, if possible, you can stay in your current assignment. If you move to another location, please talk to the circuit overseer or write to the Service Department to know where you might be more useful.”
I truly understood now, what is important for Jehovah`s organization: the only things that are counting, are efficiency and the gain for the organization, not the people.
Disappointed greetings.
Your Brother
(I do not want to tell you my name until I am not longer depending on you).
 
https://jwsurvey.org/downsizing/betrayed-and-exploited-dismissed-special-pioneer-lashes-out-against-downsizing/comment-page-1
 

The 2015 version of the "Flock" book reads, "Bible truth AS taught by Jehovah's Witnesses", which gives flexibility to "truth" at any given time, according to GB's present doctrine.  Perhaps the reason for dropping "as", could be that it was a point of valid argument, held by potential "apostates".

I don't think the average JW practices this at all.  It is too easy to accept every morsel of spiritual food from the GB as truth.  
 

Exceptional mental effort is required to constantly re-examine one's own and others' opinions, ideas, beliefs, rules, doctrines. That is hard to achieve and I think we rarely succeed in that. And we need more time. That is why we have success only at periodic intervals. :))
This is so true. In fact I do not examine myself so much now as i know I will only find excuses for my reasonings.. 
The one thing I've come to know is that i do not know the 'truth' about anything. Everything is just opinions and even scripture can be interpreted in many different ways. This forum gives proof to that point. 

The time test is one way things are revealed. Inside years and decades when other following their conduct and imitate their decisions, many are affected with things that much later will be found as wrong.
But that is the price we all pays no matter what it is about.
Exceptional mental effort is required to constantly re-examine one's own and others' opinions, ideas, beliefs, rules, doctrines. That is hard to achieve and I think we rarely succeed in that. And we need more time. That is why we have success only at periodic intervals. :))

JW's Judicial Committees is formed after elders came to knowledge about some wrongs that was done inside congregations. We making focus here on "doctrinal wrongs" made by members. In this logic every Committee have purpose and they gathered for one purpose. To correct  member or to exclude him.
JC working by The Book. These are: Bible, WT publications, internal Letters and Manuals and are powered with elders experience and motivations and outside influence coming from other prominent persons. 
JW's who lived in period when, for example, human organ transplantation had been considered as "sin" against Bible and God and "deserved" disfellowshipping of "wrongdoers", that would mean, from their (elders of those time) standpoint and view, how JC made "justified decision" in "given frames".
But, spiritual and doctrinal "frames" are relative. It had been relative in the past, and they are relative today too. Because of enough experience about this, JW elders who serve in JC must be wiser and more discreet. And if they must dfd somebody let that be for really rudimentary, basic things and not about "quarrels over words and customs" aka about things, doctrines that no one not know for sure, but all only speculate how something maybe looks like.
Should we judge and blame elders who acted according to false knowledge, err instructions and deceived "sound mind"? We can do that. Because they put their trust in other human, WT Top Management aka Directors later called GB and not JHVH and Jesus as they claimed and taught members from stage.  
On other hand ...., Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be[a] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[b] loosed in heaven." ..... also sounds very stretched just as a idea that elders are appointed by holy spirit. 
Nevertheless, we still have what Jehovah’s Word says about proper conduct and how matters should be decided. We can, in effect, determine what has already been decided on a matter in the heavens. Admittedly, due to human imperfections, mistakes in judgment are made at times, but this only emphasizes even more the need to adhere closely to the instructions in Jehovah’s Word in handling matters so as to be assured that what is decided is what has already been decided in heaven. - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1981092
According to this, if WT elders, who acted in all past period of time and who acting today, under temporary "given frames" knew/know what was already been decided on a matter in the heavens because they have guidance of holy spirit than our discussion will be useful to only few who is in dilemma about elder's decision making process. :))

I know you’ve read the WT’s early teaching (1947) preaching against excommunication/disfellowshipping.
“Are You Excommunicated?”
Excerpt in regard to the Catholic Church and it practice of excommunication:
“This means that you are looked upon with the blackest contempt by the Vatican, being cursed and damned with the Devil and his angels.”
Watchtower today, who practice the same doctrine:
"Like Satan, human apostates are unruly men who cook up wicked reasonings and season their brew with poisonous lies that deceive minds.”
The mark of disfellowshipping is the same as excommunication.  It judges an individual as deserving (being “damned”) of death.  JWs believe there is no promise of life if one sides completely with Satan, which they feel apostates have done so.   And I guarantee you that some here believe I am one of those “human apostates” brewing up lies in Satan’s kitchen. They have personally judged me as undeserving of life.   Also, I can’t count how many times I have read of individuals disfellowshipped who feel they might as well be dead, because of the treatment given them from the organization. And if anyone has a son or daughter who has been disfellowshipped, they may grieve for the loss of their child, as if he or she has died.  This is the result of WT's strict teaching on how to treat disfellowshipped individuals.  It is a very grotesque practice, just as the early WT pointed out.  
There is no possibility of eternal life without God.  Thus, your brochure bearing the title, “Return to Jehovah” signifies that those disfellowshipped, even shunned ones, are considered spiritually “dead”.  When the elders disfellowship an individual for whatever reason, they have marked them as undeserving of eternal life.  They have spiritually “killed” them by their judgment of disfellowshipping.  Rev 13:15
I wonder how an organization can go from saying this about excommunication…
“the weapon of excommunication became the instrument by which the clergy obtained a combination of ecclesiastical power and secular tyranny that finds no parallel in history”
To this, about an identical practice enforced by a “clergy”/elder body/GB…
mwb 19 March 9 - “How can it be said that disfellowshipping is a loving provision when it causes so much pain?”
Well, with such sadistic undertones, the WT has outdone the Catholic Church. Disfellowshipping is indeed the instrument used to maintain "ecclesiastical" power over primarily, the anointed of God, and all.  Rev 13:7
What is also very hypocritical is this:
“Shepherd the Flock of God”, April, 2020
Apostasy -
Deliberately Spreading Teachings Contrary to Bible Truth: (2 John 7, 9, 10; lvs p. 245; it-1 pp. 126-127) Any with sincere doubts regarding the Bible truth taught by Jehovah’s Witnesses should be helped. Loving assistance should be provided. (2 Tim. 2:16-19, 23-26; Jude 22, 23) If one obstinately is speaking about or deliberately spreading false teachings, this may be or may lead to apostasy. If there is no response after a first and a second admonition, a judicial committee should be formed.—Titus 3:10, 11; w86 4/1 pp. 30-31
“Spreading teachings contrary to Bible Truth”
This is “truth” taught by Jehovah’s Witnesses
Only a small percentage  of Watchtower’s “truth” is Bible Truth.  It is made up of “adjustments”, and “beliefs clarified”.  These are not Bible truths. 
The obstinate one speaks against this “truth”.  Yet, this one, is “spreading false teachings”, which is equated to apostasy and cooking up lies in Satan’s kitchen.  The obstinate one brings WT’s false teachings and failed doctrine to the table, just as Jesus brought up the Pharisees lies.  Unless this questioning one stops questioning, and obeys the GB, he or she is disfellowshipped.
Who really is…the apostate?
 
 
 https://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2016/01/is-leaving-city-enough.html
 
 
 
 

To the extent that they were not convinced in their own mind, then yes, they were potentially going against their own conscience.
But in their Bible-based training, how many elders actually question the blood doctrine, for example, as if it is man-made? I think that almost all elders are convinced in their own mind that this comes directly from Jehovah because it's found in Acts 15 & 21. If someone were to tell an elder that organ transplants were no different than blood transfusions because you can never get rid of every bit of the whole blood in a muscle or organ then it would be just as easy to convince the elders on these grounds, too.
But I agree that elders have acted on "knowledge" that seemed true at the time, but turned out to be "false knowledge." And there is too much reliance on the "probability" that heaven has already agreed with the GB about those things elders will judge. The idea that Jesus gave about things bound or loosed in heaven does seem to be an acceptance that the Christian congregation will need to make decisions requiring some to have authority over others. Like telling a person that he must make changes before he is welcome back in a congregation that meets in someone's home, or telling the same person that he can meet with Christians at the "synagogue" in town, but that others will be asked not to voluntarily interact with him until he makes those changes. This will require "authority" of some over others. And what if that authority must be exercised over a fellow elder?
(1 Timothy 5:19-21) . . .Do not accept an accusation against an older man except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 20 Reprove before all onlookers those who practice sin, as a warning to the rest. 21 I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus and the chosen angels to observe these instructions without any prejudice or partiality.
Jesus is saying that some can be chosen to have such rights over others, which implies organizational authority. (Selecting elders, who act as "older men" acted in OT times, as judges.) But Jesus is also saying that his invisible presence with them will be available. This assumes a prayerful, humble attitude that treats the words of Jesus and the "mind of Christ" as if he were physically present.
This will keep such judgements from becoming too arbitrary, or based on false knowledge that is only correct for a specific time frame and then becomes obsolete. Those particular "short-lived" ideas appear to have been started by individuals in the organization who were given their position due to charisma, bombastic personalities, or the appearance of great individual wisdom. No one would dare go against them. It was not a case of two or three gathered in Jesus' name, but a personality cult around a single person. Rutherford recognized the personality cult around Russell, but very few bothered to point out the personality cult around Rutherford and F.W.Franz. If these men had been humble enough to consult with others over their biggest decisions, there would have been fewer of these "frames" you mentioned. But this is the "bane" of every organization. Paul spoke of the same to the Corinthians, who wanted to follow their special superfine apostles. Men from James seemed to have been too willing to take the side of James on an important issue, so Paul spoke to the Galatians about how they were accepting improper authority from these so-called "pillars of Jerusalem" even though these pillars never imparted anything new to Paul himself.
A well-balanced Governing Body of experienced older men can serve the congregations very well, and there SHOULD be a lot of trust in what they decide is important. When it comes to imitating their judgements, we should follow their lead depending on how well their conduct turns out. (Their "conduct" would include how their past judgments have turned out, including those temporary "frames.".) But there are limits, as you pointed out. We carry our own load, and stand on our own before the judgement seat of God. Elders have their own responsibility to pay attention to their teachings. They could harm the flock because the flock expects to be able to follow.
(1 Timothy 4:15, 16) . . .. 16 Pay constant attention to yourself and to your teaching. Persevere in these things, for by doing this you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.
(Hebrews 13:17) . . .Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you.
 

JW's Judicial Committees is formed after elders came to knowledge about some wrongs that was done inside congregations. We making focus here on "doctrinal wrongs" made by members. In this logic every Committee have purpose and they gathered for one purpose. To correct  member or to exclude him.
JC working by The Book. These are: Bible, WT publications, internal Letters and Manuals and are powered with elders experience and motivations and outside influence coming from other prominent persons. 
JW's who lived in period when, for example, human organ transplantation had been considered as "sin" against Bible and God and "deserved" disfellowshipping of "wrongdoers", that would mean, from their (elders of those time) standpoint and view, how JC made "justified decision" in "given frames".
But, spiritual and doctrinal "frames" are relative. It had been relative in the past, and they are relative today too. Because of enough experience about this, JW elders who serve in JC must be wiser and more discreet. And if they must dfd somebody let that be for really rudimentary, basic things and not about "quarrels over words and customs" aka about things, doctrines that no one not know for sure, but all only speculate how something maybe looks like.
Should we judge and blame elders who acted according to false knowledge, err instructions and deceived "sound mind"? We can do that. Because they put their trust in other human, WT Top Management aka Directors later called GB and not JHVH and Jesus as they claimed and taught members from stage.  
On other hand ...., Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be[a] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[b] loosed in heaven." ..... also sounds very stretched just as a idea that elders are appointed by holy spirit. 
Nevertheless, we still have what Jehovah’s Word says about proper conduct and how matters should be decided. We can, in effect, determine what has already been decided on a matter in the heavens. Admittedly, due to human imperfections, mistakes in judgment are made at times, but this only emphasizes even more the need to adhere closely to the instructions in Jehovah’s Word in handling matters so as to be assured that what is decided is what has already been decided in heaven. - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1981092
According to this, if WT elders, who acted in all past period of time and who acting today, under temporary "given frames" knew/know what was already been decided on a matter in the heavens because they have guidance of holy spirit than our discussion will be useful to only few who is in dilemma about elder's decision making process. :))