Srecko Sostar

Arauna, you continue to revert back to entities outside of the organization to “compare” sins.  1 Pet 4:17
If this is the case, the organization is no better than any other.  But if it truly was “Jehovah’s organization”, it should be better, shouldn’t it.  After all, it boasts it is the way to spiritual salvation and “righteousness”.  Righteous practices are so far removed from the GB's agenda when it comes to child abuse.  
God’s WORD judges His anointed people. 2 Pet 3:5-7   Since the GB choose to follow their own “words”, their ordinances concerning child abuse, your scriptures in James aptly applies…to them.   2 Pet 3:10; Jer 23:29
The prophet’s words are not so archaic that they do not apply to God’s people today.  
 
Rev 18:4-8
 

What seems to have been proven in courts is that Elders deliberately hid the information from congregants, hence elders or others could continue to commit CSA offences,  and also that elders that had committed CSA WERE moved from one congregation to another. Those things HAVE been proven in court cases. So your defence of the GB Org is not so true. 

Yes. 

@John H Slaughter
Did you down vote me as a person ..... or you down vote Court Document ? :)))))
What ever of this two options stay behind your reason, than you have a problem.
Do you offer third option? :))

Hi Tom. 
I agree how we need to be "adapted". But that sounds also as in science books that explaining "evolution theory". Species were "adaptable" and .... survived. :)))
Do you suggest and say how God's inspired words need GB and their human uninspired  intervention according to modern Technological progress?  And not only to technology, because why to stop on only such adaptations. Why you not going further and say, how God's inspired words need GB and their human uninspired  intervention according to modern progress in Culture and Thoughts? 
You said how GB is unwilling to dictate people's conscience? What is base for your perception? GB made religious teachings and sorted them in 2 lines. They decide how things in one line are mandatory and in second are free choice. By such act they had already, prior to any of your attempt to make decision, made decision in your name and cancelled/ annulled  activity and pursuit of your conscience. If we have legal regulation, than we have no need for conscience. Conscience was designed for other purpose, not to be under Power of Law. 
What shall we going to mix? :))

In one hand this way of reasoning is valid. But, of course i need to notice this too. We can argue or make consensus about "core" teachings and about those that are "less" important teachings. If such categorization even exist!!! 
For example, blood transfusion.
1) CORE teaching is: we do not take transfusion of whole blood.
2) MINOR teaching is: we can take blood fractions.
What makes this two teachings to be in 2 categories? The 1) is command, mandatory and disobey such teaching brings you dfd and JHVH judgment. The 2) is not command, but your personal choice and no one will ask you to give report on your decision. 
Also, i would like to incorporate in this conversation and reasoning another element. But that doesn’t mean that the law has lost its force. It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the smallest point of God’s law to be overturned. ...... But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one tiny stroke of a pen in the Law to become void. - Luke 16 two versions
In this Jesus' words i see just opposite of common custom when WT Society and elders interpret, and you repeat it here, how some teachings are core and some are not. Why? Another reasoning we also find in Bible. If you are faithful in little things, you will be faithful in large ones. - Luke 16 With this looking on subject about teachings, that some  people consider to be somehow small or smallest in  significance and value, we see how Jesus' perspective is not on same level that people have, about what is big and important and what is small and unimportant.
With this what i wrote, I can't agree with explanation you offered, how some WT Society teachings are more important than others. Because, Jesus words showed me different way on how to look on details.
Also, as conclusion, few JW doctrines that are supposedly the truth, can't save you from judgement about others doctrines that are supposedly lie.  :))    But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. - Mat 12

Yes, people always doing what they want to do..... and sometimes they WANT to do things what THEY (other people) told them to do. 

:))) yes, supposed. Because "life saving information" have to come from GB onto worldwide elders and from them to flock. That is legal, legitimate and  official way how  "channel" of communication working and is blessed by god. :))))

Think, how both questions have good position. Maybe we can be in better position about answer, if we take in consideration what would be chance to survive and continue to live (in this life of course :))) ) in each of this situations. 
On other side, by refusing blood you not participate in defending other people who had been attacked by evil force.
Reason or reasons for refusing blood, standing in theological explanation of how should be understood verse in Bible, and how are your personal feelings about God's will.
By this action (refusing blood) you directly help or harm yourself, and indirectly harm own family. Those people who going to war because they want to help people, are ready to put  themselves  in danger situation for (theoretically) only one reason - to help known and unknown people on cost of own life.

Think, how both questions have good position. Maybe we can be in better position about answer, if we take in consideration what would be chance to survive and continue to live (in this life of course :))) ) in each of this situations. 
On other side, by refusing blood you not participate in defending other people who had been attacked by evil force.
Reason or reasons for refusing blood, standing in theological explanation of how should be understood verse in Bible, and how are your personal feelings about God's will.
By this action (refusing blood) you directly help or harm yourself, and indirectly harm own family. Those people who going to war because they want to help people, are ready to put  themselves  in danger situation for (theoretically) only one reason - to help known and unknown people on cost of own life.

@Arauna How do you actually know that the GB members  " never personally touched a child (actually too innocent  to comprehend how wicked people can be - too good for this world), " ? 
There is it seems a massive data base of Child Sexual Abuse accusations hidden within the Org. And do you have all that information, so that you know who is and who isn't on that list ?  Do you know why the GB are holding back that list ? 
In Australia the brothers must have handed over their list of names about CSA accusations.
Here in the UK, after court action, the brothers handed over their list of CSA accusation.
But in the USA the GB and /or their lawyers are refusing to hand over their information ? 
Someone will scream 'but the laws are different in USA'. It would make no difference if the laws are different in USA,   IF the GB would act on the scripture 'We must obey God as ruler, rather than men'. 
Seems quite funny that the GB /Org tells people to disobey laws of man when it involves some things, such as joining the armed forces, but yet the GB hides behind laws when it suits them. 
@Srecko Sostar  Thank you, but did you actually read ALL of that ?  Sorry i only read bits. Too much for me. 
 
. 
 

And the organization is sinless?  How easy it is for JWs to continually point to the world’s sins and refuse to acknowledge the sins of God’s people.  1 Cor 6:4-8  Whose sins are greater in God’s eyes?  The sins of those who claim to worship Him, or of those who don’t? 
“My people are fools;
they do not know me.
They are senseless children;
they have no understanding.
They are skilled in doing evil;
they know not how to do good.” Jer 4:22
‘How can you say,
"WE ARE WISE,
FOR WE HAVE THE LAW OF THE LORD,"
WHEN ACTUALLY THE LYING PEN OF THE SCRIBES
HAS HANDLED IT FALSELY?"
“The wise will be put to shame;
they will be dismayed and trapped.
Since they have rejected the word of the Lord,
what kind of wisdom do they have?” Jer 8:8,9
 
 

Perhaps these would help. It is good to read for your own first.  
517900_2019_John_Michael_Ewing_v_John_Michael_Ewing_SUMMONS___COMPLAINT_1.pdf

Perhaps these would help. It is good to read for your own first.  
517900_2019_John_Michael_Ewing_v_John_Michael_Ewing_SUMMONS___COMPLAINT_1.pdf

I think the christendom churches mentioned this a lot.  Some elder could have mentioned it in  a talk if he quoted secular magazines..... but I do not recall hearing of this in WT magazines.

@JW Insider you shared fine thoughts and showed your awareness and understanding of objections and questions other people accented and saw as serious items that need to be put on table for discussion and challenged. That is one of reason i like to read your comments which are respectful to other people, even when you are in a disagreement with them, about subject.    
What you described, can be also applicable for many human activities. For example, people who have common interest in producing food and living in some rural area, joined together. Looking for ways how support each other and care about each other and shield each other from outside bad influence, greedy merchants, natural disasters and so on. Well, in technical way, things can be looked as same. People, in that small community, will be facing inside problems and making regulations, rules and laws. 
How far will they go? To proclaim such rules as "God given"? Would they stick to rules at any cost or would be, as TTH said, "adaptive to modern technology". Or, not only to technology :))) 
Of course, we always have fear and potentially difficult situation in both directions - to stick with old things, as well to accept new and unknown. Burden is heavier, because in all this we (they) want to PUSH God as reason, motive and result.

@JW Insider you shared fine thoughts and showed your awareness and understanding of objections and questions other people accented and saw as serious items that need to be put on table for discussion and challenged. That is one of reason i like to read your comments which are respectful to other people, even when you are in a disagreement with them, about subject.    
What you described, can be also applicable for many human activities. For example, people who have common interest in producing food and living in some rural area, joined together. Looking for ways how support each other and care about each other and shield each other from outside bad influence, greedy merchants, natural disasters and so on. Well, in technical way, things can be looked as same. People, in that small community, will be facing inside problems and making regulations, rules and laws. 
How far will they go? To proclaim such rules as "God given"? Would they stick to rules at any cost or would be, as TTH said, "adaptive to modern technology". Or, not only to technology :))) 
Of course, we always have fear and potentially difficult situation in both directions - to stick with old things, as well to accept new and unknown. Burden is heavier, because in all this we (they) want to PUSH God as reason, motive and result.

JW: Good morning sir/ma’am. (Big, upbeat smiles on their faces). We would like you to join our religion.
Householder: Umm, I’m tired and hungover (yawns). Umm, what is required to do that?
JW: Simply disassociate from your current religion, if you have one, and start working towards baptism in ours.
Householder: Can I get baptized today in that pond down the road? (Points down yonder)
JW: Well no, it’s a process that could take a year or two and we do the baptisms in a JW approved location.
Householder: Hmm, alright. I never heard of you guys before (yawns some more). What kind of things do I need to do to work towards baptism?
JW: Stop smoking, doing drugs, getting drunk, sex before marriage to name a few. No more voting or involvement in politics, participating in birthdays or holidays, it’s all Satanic. Do you have a lot of friends and family?
Householder: Yes, I love them all dearly. (Pulls out his phone and starts gushing showing pictures of them)
JW: Well, you will want to distance yourself from all of them, they are evil people who will be dying soon at the hands of our loving God Jehovah. But don’t worry about having any friends, you will take on all of us, we are so loving and will be your new family!
Householder: You guys sound like a cult, fuckin A. (Scratches the back of his head with an eyebrow raised)
JW: Hang on, I need to finish my presentation. A few more things, your kids can’t enroll in after school sports and you should probably quit your professional job to find one less demanding so you can go in service more like we are doing. Also, if you need blood in an emergency, you can’t take it, I mean you won’t take it because you will love Jehovah too much and you will accept death could be possible, but let me tell you, you will be so happy and at peace. If any members get disfellowshipped, you have to hold up your end of the deal and shun them. It’s hard at first, but does get easier with time. So what do you think? Can we start a Bible study today and get you moving on this amazing journey?
Householder: You sir, can kiss my ass and fuck off, I’m going back to bed. (Belches loud and slams the door shut)
JWs shrug at each other, label him a goat and move onto the next door with big smiles on their faces.

No nation on Earth considers death by warfare to be either murder or suicide.
Neither does Jehovah God.
Among the ancient Jews, killing someone with premeditation  in warfare was one thing .... premeditated killing someone in "civilian" life was considered murder.
.... be a sport ... look it up.
Meditating on this fact, when fully understood and integrated, will change you WHOLE VIEWPOINT on many many aspects of everything you thought was true.

In the Boy Scouts, when a fellow Scout was bitten by a snake, they taught us to cut two "X"s on the snake bite, and suck the venom out, then spit it out.
Unless of course you get bitten in "certain private areas".....
..THEN ... you let them die.
I am unfamiliar if there is any "new light" on this teaching.

...EVERYTHING THAT GOES AROUND ...COMES AROUND ....

That reminds me of people who claimed they used to play Beatle's records backwards ( I don't even know how you could do that ...) , and claimed you could hear voices saying "Serve Satan" or some such nonsense.
If they did ... and could hear that, I strongly suspect they had OTHER serious mental problems, and the record was not the real problem.

 
 
 
 

Google "New York Court"
http://www.nycourts.gov/
Scroll down, under "e-COURTS"
click
"e-Filing"
https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/HomePage
Left hand column, under "Login" click
"Search as Guest"
Then enter characters and click "Submit"
https://iapps.courts.state.ny.us/nyscef/CaseSearch
Click "Name" then type in "Watchtower" and click Search
Then click on the "Sort By" box
Select "Received Date : newest to oldest"
Then click "Sort"
. . .
JW CSA Survivors in ALL 50 States can seek justice under the New York Child Victims Act
This law firm confirmed it. You can ask them :
Jehovah's Witness Sex Abuse Lawyers
https://www.jehovahswitnesssexabuselawyers.com/
Also, amongst other proof, Irwin Zalkin confirmed this on a video...links to that and other proof is in this video :
The New York Child Victims Act is for JW CSA Survivors in ALL 50 States
https://youtu.be/N3Kq_nG0434
 
"Although McDaniel's alleged abuse occurred in Oklahoma, her attorneys said they would argue that Watchtower, which is based in New York, enabled the conduct by way of negligent policies."
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/ywaj87/calling-out-sexual-abuse-in-the-jehovahs-witnesses-is-a-horrific-struggle
 
 

@JW Insider you shared fine thoughts and showed your awareness and understanding of objections and questions other people accented and saw as serious items that need to be put on table for discussion and challenged. That is one of reason i like to read your comments which are respectful to other people, even when you are in a disagreement with them, about subject.    
What you described, can be also applicable for many human activities. For example, people who have common interest in producing food and living in some rural area, joined together. Looking for ways how support each other and care about each other and shield each other from outside bad influence, greedy merchants, natural disasters and so on. Well, in technical way, things can be looked as same. People, in that small community, will be facing inside problems and making regulations, rules and laws. 
How far will they go? To proclaim such rules as "God given"? Would they stick to rules at any cost or would be, as TTH said, "adaptive to modern technology". Or, not only to technology :))) 
Of course, we always have fear and potentially difficult situation in both directions - to stick with old things, as well to accept new and unknown. Burden is heavier, because in all this we (they) want to PUSH God as reason, motive and result.

First of all, before I begin answering, I wanted to say that I have long expected that any JWs who go online to defend their views publicly will see more and more of what is beginning to happen here. The specific challenges coming from you (@4Jah2me), @Witness and @Srecko Sostar (and a few others) have lately seemed like a stronger "anti-JW onslaught" than this forum has seen before. Personally, I think it's a good thing that more and more JWs are prepared for just this type of barrage. At the moment they are all coming apparently from ex-JWs that we would call "apostates." But the Internet easily allows anyone to become capable of bringing these exact same challenges to us. So they are not specifically "apostate" challenges.
Of course, I've brought up some of these same challenges myself, because I think we all need to think about them before we answer with our typical, traditional responses. I believe that we need some doctrinal adjustments, and therefore, I'm not exactly defending the GB position against your challenges. I like it that @TrueTomHarley is standing in for me, but he is probably also concerned that, on my own, I'll end up throwing the GB under the bus.
I'm not talking about some of the minor throw-away complaints (like 'Bible Studies are really just Book Studies' and we're trying to replace the Bible with these books, etc.). The GB challenge is probably the most difficult to address in a way that can rationalize some recent inconsistent statements, the play between spirit-directed and inspired, modern "apostolic" precedent, the GB's request to be trusted while admitting that some of the teachings and processes are bound to be mistaken now and then. And we have the challenge of when and whether conscience comes into play, whether legalism has gone too far, and truly difficult doctrines to defend such as overlapping groups within "this generation" and overlapping blood components with blood fractions, etc.
Yes. The GB dictate to the congregations and, unless the dictate is seen as unconscionable or unscriptural, the members of the congregations are expected to obey. Naturally, this can go too far, but the reason for this should be easy to understand.
For the following situation, for now, you might just want to insert your own view of what a proper Christian is, if you completely reject the possibility that a JW can be a true Christian:
Hypothetically, a Christian may find himself/herself in a place with no fellow Christians to associate with, and all efforts to make disciples might fall on unproductive soil. But let's say that a Christian in this situation is happy and zealous for what he has learned from the Scriptures, has followed Jesus' command to make disciples so that others will know what Jesus taught, and is successful in converting 40 persons to Christianity and they all, because of their Bible reading, want to establish a community congregation to try to follow closely their view of the 1st century congregations as closely as possible. 
As everyone has unique abilities, and was converted at various times, the congregation will naturally have members of various levels of experience, and they likely want an orderly process for meeting and teaching and participating in the activities that they agree are important and consistent with their beliefs. Not everyone will want the same meeting times, not everyone will be teaching from the platform, or leading or suggesting the activities. There will be compromises as to meeting times, topics discussed, the depth or simplicity of those topics, how much to spend on activities, building maintenance, color of carpets, etc.
Most will appreciate that those who qualify as "elders" Biblically, will also be capable of making those decisions in a way that benefits the majority in the congregation, even though it's not perfect, and no decision will be right for all members. Some of the decisions will be compromises, some will be about process, and very mundane things.
But some will be about teachings, and it's likely that new things will be learned, and questions will be asked that make persons rethink something that might have been taught a different way than before.
I hope you can see that, even with JWs out of the picture, you could probably accept this entire situation as a possible, and even normal, Christian congregation. So now we take it a step further:
The excitement and joy in this congregation of 40 soon becomes 80 and 160 as more and more share in Jesus' command to make disciples. They are now spread over 100's of miles, and need 4 congregations. This turns to 400 miles and 20 congregations. We would expect that some of the qualified elders would be chosen and invited to give talks and instruction in some of the other congregations? News of congregation events and experiences in one congregation might want to be shared to build up those in another congregation? Perhaps a newsletter is in order that's shared among all 20 congregations? Perhaps even some of the more successful methods of making disciples could be shared? And these 20 congregations might find it nice to have a chance to gather together will all 20 congregations of those related to them in the faith on special occasions.
It will soon be useful, perhaps necessary, to have certain members of these congregations specifically involved in (assigned to) tasks related to coordination, writing, topics for sermons, administration duties, and some assurances that their doctrines are being "double-checked" against the Bible so that one congregation is not teaching something that another congregation would find unbiblical or even offensive. The doctrine checking would no doubt go to those elders most experienced at teaching and preaching and who had experience visiting multiple congregations.
I believe that most of these ideas would not be offensive to you, when you think of how naturally they occur in various denominations all around the world.
With JWs, a large body of doctrine has been built up, and remodeled, over the last 135 years or so. Those elders who act as elders of multiple congregations instead of just one local congregation will see themselves as the "guardians of doctrine." (The term, as used by Brother Jackson, sounds too much like a protector of traditional doctrines, but I think he truly meant it as guarding the doctrines so that they remain consistent with the Biblical "constitution" even when amendments are necessary.)
What I'm saying is that it is quite natural that we have a GB function. And I don't think it starts with how much they think of themselves, but the very high regard they have for the unique value of the doctrines in their care that makes them accept that they are handling a very special function. So they have looked for a Biblical way to highlight that value and ended up creating a doctrine (in 2012) about the GB being the same as the FDS, not even including the "Helpers." It's based on the one parable that highlights the way spiritual food is distributed to the entire congregation. (It appears they also considered using the parable of the loaves and fishes, but this one has too many participants in the distribution.) To me this is a doctrine that will likely need to be adjusted back to what it was from about 1928 to 2011, where the few in charge of writing and publishing doctrines only spoke of themselves as "representing" the rest of the FDS.
Their function would be the same, however, with or without their current explanation of the FDS parable. But that doctrine itself has caused some problems in that it tends to highlight the importance of 8 persons when the entire focus should be on the overall value of the unique set of doctrines. I don't think any of us should have a problem, however, with the idea that a small group of elders who are seen as "faithful and discreet slaves" would perform many of the same functions as the Governing Body are now forming.
They are elders, and they deserve respect. Most JWs think the GB are the equivalent of the FDS, so this is not a problem anyway. But I'm sure there are many who have already put this idea to the test, and it makes sense to them. Many others have put this idea to the test and they realize, as I said above, that it could be a doctrinal mistake, but would have no great effect one way or another if the doctrine were changes. (In fact, I have found long-time Witnesses who thought this had been the doctrine for nearly 50 years, since the GB arrangement.)
Also, those of us who have remained JWs, even after questioning that particular doctrine, do so because we believe the majority of the basic doctrines being "distributed" are correct, otherwise there are other denominations to look into. My own criteria, based on the Bible, immediately knocks out just about all the other denominational options at a glance.
I don't see the same huge difference. Paul spoke of the removal of the gifts of inspiration. So even if they were inspired, we should not expect inspiration to take the same form today. Also, the GB model themselves, not directly on the apostles, but on the Council of elders at Jerusalem, which was best known for correcting a big mistake that came right out of their own congregation, from under their noses, which Peter and James (not an apostle) had even hypocritically participated in. Also, even the apostles were not "inspired" at all times. 
No one goes to the door with the overlapping generations message. Our message is that the time for this wicked system is short, and that the Kingdom offers the perfect solution, so lift your heads up and rejoice, and if you really want to do some good, join us in spreading that same message to others. 
Haven't seen that invoked for a while. It gets drummed up by exJWs from some old 1950s Watchtower. It's been used again since 2000, but it's in the context of preparation for persecution as a possible way to be "cautious as serpents yet innocent as doves." The basic idea is not to give more information than a person is entitled to, especially so as not to put our brothers and sisters unnecessarily in harm's way.
Yes. I know the quote, and I've heard others like it. It's an imperfect statement made by an imperfect man. But the motivation from context is the idea (perhaps patronizing) that most of us are like children who need a lot of reassurance. A parent wants a child to show trust even though the parent knows that he or she will make mistakes. But because the motive of most parents is loving, those mistakes will rarely outweigh the value of a child's trust in the parent. A good shepherd will show love to the flock under their care as if they are like his "children." I'm not offended because I think the phrase was properly motivated.