Srecko Sostar

Mr Tom you are a comedian through and through. But of course you do it to undermine the points i make.
Turn something serious into a joke and some people may just follow you and dismiss my comments as not important.
Well I'm not affected by it as I am pleased with myself for making things known.
What people do with true information is up to them. 

Srecko, never say never. Do not shut any doors and do not burn any bridges. Just imagine if the JW Org did get cleaned up by God. Imagine that God removed the GB for misconduct. Imagine that  God removed all the wicked Elders and replaced the GB and the bad Elders with honest hearted ones. You and i could return to the Org with a clear conscience. And with God's mercy and guidance of his holy spirit, we may even make it through Armageddon. Never give up hope Strecko. No one knows who will live or die. 

I quite love how, even though I explain my self fully in English everyone should be able to understand, people still love to misquote me or to pretend that I've said something. 
An example here. 
This would mean, you are personal holding Christ responsible for the things people do. That has become your rallying cry.
What utter nonsense. I have love for God and His son Jesus Christ. I would not blame either for the way people act. 
However, I do question people that pretend to be receiving direct instruction from either of those, from above. Especially when they get things all wrong, and also mistreat the ones they are supposed to be helping. 
 "...they find your attacks offensive... " Well the Pharisees found Jesus offensive too. Truth very often hurts. 
The Russians must have found the Witnesses offensive, they banned them and stole all of their property I believe. 
So it is, life goes on. 
 

Very well written, Fabulous comment. Thank you. 

Words you mentioned as "pejorative" and "labels" are just words. With words we differentiate things and we give them meaning. In reality, there are no bad words or pejorative, insulting words. There are people, groups of people who give their own new meaning when they apply it to other people or groups of people.
Some word is not obscene or insulting because it consists of certain letters. There is a street words for a sex organ, and there is a medical word for the same thing. None of them is rude. Because they actually mark the same thing.
An example is the word "apostate". It is used in certain circles (such as WTJWorg) to mark people who are members of the JW community but have different religious ideas. And some of these "apostates" remain within the JW community and some leave.
This forum meets people of different religious thoughts, beliefs, belongings. This group on this forum could be called the "interfaith group". :)))
The intention here is not to unite all of these people into a multi-faith community, but to represent, defend, challenge religious ideas. 
Many of the used words are not the fabrication of the one who writes them, but are in use for a long time. Those involved in the discussion know what they are talking about.
Of course, the words that was apply in text can hurt the feelings of the other. But sometimes this can not be avoided no matter how much an author of the text seeks to be objective .... or unwilling to be.
The fact we living in 21 century does not exclude, not canceled, does not delete important fact that is reason for division - there are always Us and Them. Unfortunately, Nobody can Change This "Primitivism". (even this word "primitivism" has at least two different labels, connotations  :))))

Old light is New Again:
 

Be cautious and evaluate, yes of course. 
But not be blind or pretend not to see the truth about the JW Org. 
Unless you too are saying all the Child Abuse Victims are telling lies. Are you ? 
I agree with the Proverbs scripture, but the naive ones are the JW congregants that believe every word of the GB. 

Paragraph 6 of this week Watchtower:
“6 We need to be especially cautious when we come across reports regarding JehovahÂ’s people. Never forget that Satan is the accuser of GodÂ’s faithful servants. (Rev. 12:10) Therefore, Jesus warned that opposers would “lyingly say every sort of wicked thing” against us. (Matt. 5:11) If we take that warning seriously, we will not be shocked when we hear outrageous statements about JehovahÂ’s people.”

And yet when he judges me you voted it up. I am not a stubborn person ..... S.M.  I tell you in truth i never even thought he was making a direct comment against you. I just agreed with the comment as a general comment. 
Although i know the answers are given to previous comments, I see the answers as more of a general comment to the whole group. 
And when i said how i felt i was being treated, i did not mean by you personally, I meant generally. . 
As for the rest of your comment here , it is too long for me to concentrate on. 
Sorry S. M.  I am not a puppet for Srecko and i come here as an individual. I do not take sides, I am my own person. 
I comment as I see fit and will continue to do so. 

@Space Merchant , You must type awfully fast   We've already discussed the "new creation" in Christ.  I'm sorry you don't get it.  We also have discussed "earthly" Jerusalem, which still boggles my mind.  The fulfillment today is with "New Jerusalem" - the literal Jerusalem has nothing to do with prophecy.  In fact, JWs will tell you the same.  
Your positions that have met approval here have not met the approval of the GB, thus with all JWs.   The Watchtower teaches it is the "one true religion".  That's it, only that religion.  YOU are not part of that perceived one true religion. 
Do you understand...yet?  You are welcome to rant at me all you like, but my views and my belief in Christ and the spiritual "New Jerusalem", holds. If we held the same belief, I may accept your corrections, but we don't.  
I concentrate solely on the Watchtower where the anointed and their companions reside under the rule of a wicked slave.  They receive my message.  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Shepherd the Flock of God:
Apostasy:
Apostasy is a standing away from true worship, a falling away, defection, rebellion, abandonment. It includes the following: ˙ Celebrating false religious holidays: (Ex. 32: 4-6; Jer. 7:16-19) Not all holidays directly involve false religion and require judicial action.
˙ Participation in interfaith activities: (2 Cor. 6:14, 15, 17, 18) Apostate acts include bowing before altars and images and sharing in false religious songs and prayers.—Rev. 18:2, 4.
˙ Deliberately spreading teachings contrary to Bible truth as taught by Jehovah’s Witnesses: (Acts 21:21, ftn.; 2 John 7, 9, 10) Any with sincere doubts should be helped. Firm, loving counsel should be given. (2 Tim. 2:16-19, 23-26; Jude 22, 23) If one obstinately is speaking about or deliberately spreading false teachings, this may be or may lead to apostasy. If there is no response after a first and a second admonition, a judicial committee should be formed. —Titus 3:10, 11; w89 10/1 p. 19; w86 4/1 pp. 30- 31; w86 3/15 p. 15.
˙ Causing divisions and promoting sects: This would be deliberate action disrupting the unity of the congregation or undermining the confidence of the brothers in Jehovah’s arrangement. It may involve or lead to apostasy.—Rom. 16:17, 18; Titus 3:10, 11; it-2 p. 886.
˙ Continuing in employment that makes one an accomplice to or a promoter of false worship would subject one to disfellowshipping after being allowed a reasonable amount of time, perhaps up to six months, to make the needed adjustments.—w99 4/15 pp. 28-30; km 9/76 pp. 3-6.
˙ The practice of spiritism.—Deut. 18:9-13; 1 Cor. 10:21, 22; Gal. 5:20. ˙ Idolatry: (1 Cor. 6:9, 10; 10:14) Idolatry includes the use of images, including pictures, in false religious worship.
 

@Space Merchant ,
 
 Although you sympathize with the Watchtower, you have ideas that just wouldn’t fly if you were a JW.  To be so vocal about those ideas as a dedicated JW, could cause you to be disfellowshipped.  Then, you would understand what it means to be cut off – spiritually viewed as dead – by those you thought were your brothers and sisters.  As it is, within the Watchtower organization, you are not presently even considered a “brother”.  Your views are shrugged off by the majority since you are perceived as never receiving “the truth”. 
If you were to dare preach Christ as your only Head, you would be disfellowshipped, for the GB has assumed headship over the anointed and all.  If you disagreed with a teaching, knowing full well it had the ability to change within a few years and voiced it as the lie that it was shown up to be, you would be disfellowshipped.  
As a JW, where would your love for pure worship come to an end?  Would you continue to proclaim your beliefs as you do here, or would you fall into the fear of men and refuse to speak up for Truth?  This is where JWs are at.  Either they buckle down and accept all of the GB’s teachings, or they express themselves as Christ did, and face the cutting off that he predicted would happen to those who love HIM and not a blasphemous organization. 
As much as you want to be, you are not my teacher.  That would be Christ and the Holy Spirit.  If I share the same belief as other anointed ones, we are working as the Body should, under one Lord, one faith, one baptism.   Eph 4:3-5

apostate əˈpɒsteɪt/ noun   1. a person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle. "after fifty years as an apostate he returned to the faith" synonyms: dissenter, heretic, nonconformist; More         adjective   1. abandoning a religious or political belief or principle. "an apostate Roman Catholic"

“They will put you out of the synagogues; yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. 3 And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me. 4 But these things I have told you, that when the time comes, you may remember that I told you of them.”  John 16:2-4
“put you out of the synogogues”  - aposynagōgos - excluded from sacred assemblies of Israelites, excommunicated.
Spiritual “Israel” are the anointed ones.  They are assembled IN THE WATCHTOWER.  Rom 2:28,29; Heb 8:10; Rev 7:4
The disfellowshipping act shows that Jehovah has a clean people who adhere to Scriptural guidelines in order to maintain that holiness.   Wt 15/4/15
“…will think that he offers God service”
It is a serious thing to disfellowship a person, because it means that the person is cut off from God’s organization, from life.  Wt 61/6/15
“…the time is coming that whoever kills you”
“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.”  Matt 24:9,10 
 “Therefore whoever confesses Me (Jesus Christ) before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. 33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.”  Matt 10: 32,33
“He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.”  Matt 10:39
Preaching to Israel -
“Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.”  Matt 10:21-23
“This good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth”.  Matt 24:14
The “inhabited earth” is the dwelling of God – “Israel”.  Acts 7:48-50; 1 Cor 3:16,17; 2 Cor 6:14-18
How can an organization offer life?  Is the Watchtower run by a different means than any other organizations in the world?  It uses your money, time, and dedication to keep it afloat.  Matt 6:24 
It is part of this world.  How foolish to think we can use the very resources the world offers and then label it a theocracy ruled by God. 
“ Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.  For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world.”  1 John 2:16
There is only one gate, one door -  Christ Jesus.  John 10  You hear about him on occasion, but  another door - “Jehovah’s organization” -  and another Master, the “slave”, takes the spotlight. 
Not everyone who is disfellowshipped runs off to commit sin, free to do whatever they want.  Anointed and those not anointed, desire to serve the one true Master, Christ, and the Father.  Their obedience to them is direct.  They don’t need a wicked slave to authorize every detail of their life, from clothing to the form of praise they must offer to “Jehovah”.  Rev 13:1,4,11,14-17  I doubt JWs can imagine being guided by Holy Spirit first-hand when their governing body admits it is not.
There is one “organization” that Jesus and God have authorized and it has no part in the riches of the world.  John 2:19,21; 1 Pet 2:4-10; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22; Heb 12:18-24; Isa 55:1; Rev 22:17
"O house of Jacob, (“Israel”)  come and let us walk
In the light of the Lord.
6 For You have forsaken Your people, the house of Jacob,
Because they are filled with eastern ways;
They are soothsayers like the Philistines,
And they are pleased with the children of foreigners. (elder body rule, not “circumcised” Ezek 44:6-9; 2 Thess 2:3,4,9-12
7 Their land is also full of silver and gold,
And there is no end to their treasures;
Their land is also full of horses,
And there is no end to their chariots.  Joel 2:1-5; Rev 9; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 13:1,2,7,18

8 Their land is also full of idols;
They worship the work of their own hands,
That which their own fingers have made.
Work to build into his heart a deep love and respect for Jehovah, the Bible, and Jehovah’s organization. Km 10/90   

9 People bow down,
And each man humbles himself;
Therefore do not forgive them.
   A humble person becomes more valuable to Jehovah’s organization because his attitude makes him a good and useful servant of God.  Wt 12/11/15
10 Enter into the rock, and hide in the dust,
From the terror of the Lord
And the glory of His majesty.  Joel 2:1,2; Matt 24:4-8

11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled,
The haughtiness of men shall be bowed down,
And the Lord alone shall be exalted in that day."
Christians—Be Proud of Who You Are!  Wt 05/2/15
Am I proud to tell people that I am one of Jehovah’s Witnesses?’  ws18 July pp. 21-26  
You live in a land of mixed messages, yet, “my people love to have it so.  But what will you do in the end?”  Jer 5:31
"Sever yourselves from such a man,
Whose breath is in his nostrils;
For of what account is he?"  Isa 2:22
Isaiah chapter 2 depicts the rise of the true Mt Zion, “restored” and finished outside of a mountain of confusion.  Zech 4:6,7; Isa 48:20
 
 
 
 

Just a couple of points Space Merchant. 
If Hitler had made a comment i thought was true, I would back up the comment, not the man.
If Srecko makes a comment which I agree with I will say that i agree with that comment.. I will judge the comment not the man or woman making it. I will also not go back ten pages to look for other comments they have made. 
I have in fact felt this  "stubborn and persistent"  attitude against me on here, but I'm not moved by it. 
Space Merchant says : "But yes, every time a biblical fact is thrown into their face, they are quick to bring up JWs, when I am talking solely about the Church Structure..." 
Um, go to the very top of the page. Read what this site is all about . JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES PUBLIC CLUB.  Then look at the topic heading Jehovah's witnesses ..... Armageddon. What makes THEM  think it will still happen ? It is about the Jehovah's witnesses, not about the Church structure or the early church. 

Watchtower logic is like this:
What we told and what we teach is true. Now we just have to wait for new information's that will prove opposite or different. Meanwhile, all who would disagree with us must go, in this way or another.
:)))) haha .. for my opposers

I'll agree this topic has certainly gone way off line but I didn't start it and I don't want the limelight, even though some may think i do.
The word Apostate just means someone that has turned away from their former religion. So the disciples were in fact Apostates to the Jewish religion.  But the JW Org seem to want it to mean, someone who has turned against God and Jesus Christ.
Hence the JW Org love the word Apostate as it serves as ammunition for them to dislike / not talk to former Witnesses. A rather sad situation but that's as it is.
Tom has made a number of sweeping statements or suggestions or implications here, some of which hold water others not.
I'll agree with Tom that the 'homosexual lifestyle' is something that some ex JW's  turn to. I was very disappointed with the 'protests' in London earlier this year, outside of JW conventions. I'm glad I was not any part of those protests. One particular homoseual showing off and becoming 'famous' amongst the protesters. Yuk.
Tom's next statement is so much a blanket statement that i would have thought it was beneath him.
"Essentially, they don’t like the idea that Christians should be separate from the world". Really Tom ? And you have spoken to so many of them in person have you about this issue ?  Remember you are talking about apostates. People that have turned away from their former religion, not turned away from God or Christ........ 
There are so many things in your last paragraph that try to once again blanket over all, that it is laughable. 
1. Theocracy. Where is your proof of it ?  Catholics could say the same sentence that you have written.
In fact, many of Jehovah’s Witnesses / Catholics / Protestants  disagree with this or that aspect of theocracy. Is it so funny.
Unless you can prove without doubt, that the JW Org and it's Governing Body are being directly guided by God through Jesus Christ, then what you are  saying means nothing. 
2.  "We are after all being taught by Jehovah".  Sweeping statement with again no proof.
Tom, we come back to,  'Can you prove the GB are the Faithful and discreet slave ?' Can you prove they are getting direct information from Jehovah ? If not then your above statement is at best a guess. 
Oh, and back to the beginning of your comment. 
"They push for all it is worth the idea that all you have to do is disagree with the GB and you will be expelled!"
Um, my brother is an Elder in a congregation here in England and he agrees with me that if you ask to many questions and if you disagree with the GB, you can and probably will be disfellowshipped for, "Causing a division within the congregation". 
Hence I left before making any statements to anyone. 
 
 

Watchtower logic is like this:
What we told and what we teach is true. Now we just have to wait for new information's that will prove opposite or different. Meanwhile, all who would disagree with us must go, in this way or another.
:)))) haha .. for my opposers

When Muslims blow themselves up in terroristic activities, they believe that they will go to Paradise (Heaven?) and get 72 Virgins.
If they convert to Catholicism, and become priests, they can get that NOW!

Yes, I know . I wasn't disputing that.

This topic is about Armageddon, will it won't it happen ?  I get moaned at for not keeping on topic. 
Therefore if I reply to your comment I will get shot up by the World News Media police. They seem to love to bully only me in this regard. 
I am actually a 'member' of the JW org web page, with log in details etc. As for it being 'honesty and truth' well that is up to each of us to decide if we believe that.  
I also studied last Sunday's study article in the W/T, which i found amusing. Even though my wife is told by the Elders not to talk to me about spiritual things, as she is not baptised it not for the Elders to decide, so we still converse about such matters. 
Concerning the Child abuse issue, I would love to discuss this but it would probably need to be elsewhere or a new topic. 
As you say, WE are all guilty. That was why I left the Org, so as not to be guilty. But I must leave it there for fear of being shot down. 
 

Sounds like you are making threats, and proves the WT are getting to be more a part of the world than ever. 
The GB should give more of it's time to worrying about a more important type of violation, that of children. 

Well said Allen!
And what to think about "water of truth", for free, without no charge, to buy without money and without so called "copyrights", that Jesus promised to all, and that have to be available for all, for people to be able to get everlasting life ::)))
What a funny reality, what a parody, what a shame to trade with "The Truth". And all in the name of Law, Secular, Worldly Law.
But when Secular Law said give us documents about this and that, then WT said, we must obey god more then you :))))))))

... dear Anna, if you open NWT Bible on page 1578 and 1579 (in Croatian edition 2006) authors of translation quoted how John (apostle) wrote 1,2 and 3 John in a year cca 98.
So, book of Revelation is the book that placed on last position of Bible, but last written was those 3 letters, not Revelation, according to WT.
That is what John Butler noticed about comment you gave. And that is just that. Nothing more. Not John Butler not me made up things about this issue. We just read NWT Bible and check information about "last" inspired words that found its place in Bible books.
By the way does anyone know what was the name of that Catholic Roman Pope who ccollected  "inspired" books and letters and then decide what one of all will be part of Bible - Catholic Bible of course. Later came Protestant Bible. And later came NWT Bible. And in the middle there is many other Bibles too.       
:))

Thanks to heaven, people  have no  power to read other people mind and motives.  
But, thanks to heaven too, other people have power to be suspicious about other people words. Also to be stubborn and persistent in that. 
:))))