Srecko Sostar

I have submitted to, and answered ALL your questions I ever remember you asking, specifically, and in detail ... and to everybody elses' questions they have submitted ... year after year after year.
The REASON for cross examinations is to arrive at the TRUTH of any matter.  
I submit to all cross-examinations ... and have told many very personal  things about myself to stimulate controversy so that the pot is stirred, and hopefully TRUTHS of all kinds will separate and rise to the top, and have, here on the Archive, for somewhere around six or seven years.
The TRUTH is painful .... and hard .... and soul searching.
The REASON for cross examinations is to arrive at the TRUTHS of many matters   ...  but without them we swim with chains, and we share those chains with others who swim.
There is ALWAYS enough chains.
We both believe in the same God, the Same Christ, the same Kingdom, and the same basic principles, except for only one principal thing, as far as I can see.
You are afraid of the water ... I am afraid of the chains.
 
 

I have edited two points of the quote of my above referenced comment  (click read more), changing  two points to red and bold to highlight what two ideas  go together.
... but of course since you are looking at anything I say trough AGENDA DRIVEN sunglasses, you do not comprehend what you read, so I will try to be clearer.
Ahem .... the following six lines quoted are separated by "air spaces" ... that means they are SEPARATE  definitions ... that means they are SEPARATE judicial systems.
1.) Transylvanian dictator Vlad the Impaler had a definition of "due process"
2.) Soviet Josef Stalin had a definition of "due process".
3.) The Nazi Gestapo and Department of Justice had a definition of "due process".
4.) The WTB&TS has a definition of "due process"
5.) The USA court systems have their definitions of "due process"
I clearly was talking about six completely separate and distinct forms, styles and characteristics of applied "Justice".
Completely different....completely separate.
I find it VERY SAD AND TELLING  that you, yourself made the connection, true or false, or partially true or partially false, that
" I mean, that last remark was as long as it was just plain unhinged - comparing the Watchtower to Stalin, the Gestapo, and to ...... Vlad the Impaler?! "
You AND YOU ALONE are the one that made that connection between deliberately isolated points ... you and you alone ... when my point was ONLY ... and what was also clearly stated :
" If your life was on the line, which system would YOU choose to get what approximates Justice?"
Which as usual ... as always ... the questions you NEVER answer.
I do know WHY you never answer my  questions, but go off on a tangents of misconstruction.
                                                        It's painful                                                                                                       
  although I deliberately kept the ideas separate ... with your own mind you saw that connection.
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TTH: ".. period of silence"?
You look for meaning in personal attributes, like dissecting a picture of a guy taking off a sleeve stained suit coat and becoming more worldly, as in Sunday's WT, and see nuances where there are none whatsoever.
You might have well have said he was being chased by bees!
".. period of silence"?
I do have to sleep and eat, and go to the ..... grocery store, and do yard work, etc., etc., etc.
Besides ... it's not the swing of the pendulum, as it goes to and fro ... but the essence that drives it, that makes us go.
Wha-de-do-DAH.
 
 

"Quod est necessarium est licitum"
That which is necessary, is legal.
If I ... with premeditation ...  I deliberately murdered a Sister out in Service by shooting her through the head through her car side window ...who was screaming in horror and pain, her body and face ON FIRE ...burning to death in a car fire, and nobody could not get her out ....
... how do you think the Congregational Judicial Committee would handle it?
... how do you think a civil Jury would handle it?
... how do you think any sane, reasonable adult would see it?
 

The "human court systems" are ..oh...what's the word I want to say...um.. oh yeah... HUMAN.
They are for the most part completely transparent, and open for review by all affected, or even interested parties having nothing to do with specific proceedings.
If Justice is being perverted, it can be plainly seen and documented, as it was clearly seen in the recent Russian Federation banning of Jehovah Witnesses Organization
If I want to, I can go to my County Courthouse and sit in the back and watch the daily administration of Justice.
They know this, and are therefore open, transparent, conscientious, and accountable.
... Unless they are following a script for political reasons ... but that too, can be watched, and is a lesson in itself.
When the 60 MINUTES TV show news team and video truck shows up at a Kingdom Hall you know it's GOING to be a bad day.
All judicial processes take place in secret, with no recordings allowed, and no witnesses allowed to see and hear the deliberations, even if an accused wants it.
The accused is not allowed representation, and no notes are taken that he or she is allowed to see and review.
The concept of a transcript is laughed at.
The Civil courts of today closely resemble the court system of Ancient Israel, where trials were held in the city gates, and EVERYTHING was open to all who passed through ... they could stand and watch for awhile,  or speak up and add whatever they thought might be pertinent testimony. 
The accusers, defenders, and judges were ALL watched by EVERYONE with complete transparency.  This system served for an honest and stable system of jurisprudence for over two thousand years.
WHAT WE DO, is a secret to the congregation, is behind closed doors, and people are afraid if they express any interest in how the wheels turned ...  they might be NEXT to get pulled into the back to "Room 101", "The Little Back Room", the "Red Room" for a Star Chamber style interrogation.
.... In the kindest possible way of course.
If Justice is being perverted, it is COMPLETELY HIDDEN AND UNDOCUMENTED, in contrast to what was able to be clearly seen in the recent Russian Federation banning of Jehovah's Witnesses Organization. They banned the Corporation at the same time honoring a Russian Jehovah's Witness Family.
It may be whispered about among elders ... but that's about it.
AN INVISIBLE STEEL FIST IN SATIN COVERED GLOVE.
I see and have seen how both judicial systems work, not in theory, but in actual practice, over many, many years.
And Star Chambers always evolve into Kangaroo Courts .. and although the Brotherhood may have never heard those terms ...  the chilling factor of feeling the effects on a gut level ... goes clear to the bone.
OF COURSE I have praise for the "human court systems".
God gave US a BETTER system ... roughly imitated by Civil Governments today ... and we ABANDONED it for what we have now.
 
 
 
But ... they get lentils .... AND MEAT .... at Bethel, and brag about it.
 
 

TTH:
Many legal firms have been bankrupted along WITH their clients over never ending litigation.
I even think there was a movie about that years ago, if memory serves, starring Richard Gere.
( placekeeper here if I ever find it ..)
The movie starts out he is in a busy law firm making millions, and he is driving around in a VERY expensive exotic sports car, and $3,000 dollar suits.
The last scene of the movie shows him in Bankruptcy Court, he's living in a cheap motel and before the Bankruptcy Judge, says his only possession is a radio.
and as far as my cartoon collection ... I think you are just Jealous ... I remember before that after ranting about my posting style, you said you were going to try and emulate it, or words to that effect.
The legal means the Society's Lawyers always use are GOOD ones! ... if winning at all costs is the goal, and Justice is not.
Actually, their legal and fiduciary responsibility to their client is to WIN ... NOT pursue Justice.
That is the Governing Body's Job.
... to pursue Justice ... even if it means losing a billion dollars and all the real estate they own.

"What kind of Cosmetics can you use if you are TWO FACED?"
Any “Jezebel” would know.   2 Kings 9:30,32,33,35,36; Micah 3:5; Rev 2:20; 13:11; Ezek 23:35,37-41,45,29,30; Rev 17:1,2,6,12,16,17

Excerpt from the above news article:
Also, in Delaware, a similar case was being adjudicated, and the Court stopped the Society's Lawyers from changing the venue to a county where the court system was overloaded and the trial would not take place for YEARS. Their startegy is to wear out any seekers of justice and to bankrupt them.
They KNOW what Justice is ... but to not hemorrhage MONEY, pervert it in every way possible. The Lawyers and accountants are now deciding what is proper theocratic protocol, and that has been the case since the "rise of the Governing Body".
Spend about an hour reading the sad history of this case on Google.
Just Google "Jehovah's Witnesses vs State of Delaware".
Read it and weep!

From the Newspaper the “San Diego Reader” - October 12, 2017
Jehovah's Witnesses look in other direction
Lawyers for religious group argue against daily fines in sex-abuse case
By Dorian Hargrove, Oct. 12, 2017
 
Attorneys for the Jehovah's Witness church appeared before a state appellate court yesterday (October 11) in hopes of overturning the $4000 daily sanctions that a trial court ordered them to pay for refusing to turn over documents in one of two sex-abuse cases.
 
Osbaldo Padron, a former parishioner of the Linda Vista Jehovah's Witness congregation, filed his lawsuit against the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, JehovahÂ’s WitnessesÂ’ governing body, in 2013. Padron was one of seven people who sued the kingdom over sexual abuse they suffered by a former church elder, Gonzalo Campos.
As detailed in an August 30 Reader article, Campos admitted to molesting seven children from 1982 to 1999. Despite his admission, church elders agreed to let Campos rejoin the congregation after a four-year expulsion.
 
In a 1999 letter, Linda Vista church elder Eduardo Chavez argued for reinstating Campos. He wrote, “In our meeting with him he said he was very repentant for what he did. He stated that he wanted to return to Jehovah. He is willing to face the victims and ask their forgiveness. He now wants to obey Jehovah. Before, when he would speak to people on the platform he would not meditate on what he was doing. Although he needed to confess, he felt shameful and had fear of mankind. He would deceive himself thinking that he could continue serving as an elder. Now he realized that he could not change without help. Ever since his expulsion he has not abused anyone."
 
In 2010, five victims sued the Watchtower for allowing Campos to serve as an elder despite having knowledge that he molested several children in the congregation. Watchtower settled that case in 2012. The terms of the settlement as well as the evidence against the Watchtower were sealed.
 
Two more victims, Padron and José Lopez, followed suit.
 
In 2013, San Diego Superior Court judge Joan Lewis ordered Watchtower to pay $13.5 million for repeatedly refusing to turn over documents that showed the church was aware of sexual abuse and did nothing to stop it.
 
Attorneys for the Watchtower filed an appeal. They argued that Judge Lewis had acted too soon in issuing the $13.5 million in sanctions and instead the trial court should have imposed less severe sanctions. The appellate court agreed.
 
In their ruling, the justices wrote, "We conclude the court erred in ordering terminating sanctions because there was no evidence that lesser sanctions would have failed to obtain Watchtower's compliance with the document production order and because there were other possible sanctions that could have effectively remedied the discovery violation. On remand, the court has broad discretion to start with a different sanction that does not wholly eliminate Watchtower's right to a trial."
 
Then, last year in the Padron case, a different superior court judge, Richard Strauss, followed the appellate court's advice and instead of issuing terminating sanctions imposed $4000 daily sanctions on the Watchtower for refusing to turn over the documents that Padron's attorneys had requested.
Again, Watchtower's attorneys filed an appeal.
 
On October 11, those attorneys appeared before the Fourth District Appellate Court to argue that the trial court was wrong to issue daily sanctions — exactly what they had argued for in the appellate court Lopez case just months prior.
 
Justice Richard Huffman did not hide his displeasure that Watchtower's attorneys were arguing against what they had previously supported to the same court.
"You can't have it both ways," Huffman said during argument. "[The Lopez] ruling has come around to bite you and now you're saying, 'not fair, not fair.' You were headed in one direction before and now youÂ’re headed another way. It's a breathtaking position to listen to."
The appellate court has 90 days to issue its formal ruling."
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"Is it okay to question the authority of the Governing Body?"
According to Christ, yes. 
“Now there was also a dispute among them, as to which of them should be considered the greatest. 25 And He said to them, “The kings (leaders of the people…”through the notion of a foundation of power”) of the Gentiles (or, the non anointed elders of the flock of whom by far, are not anointed, or "Gentiles")
exercise lordship over them, (the authority given to the elders)
and those who exercise authority over them (over the elders) are called ‘benefactors.’ (GB)
(a title of honour, conferred on such as had done their country service, and upon princes, equivalent to Soter, Pater Patriae – “Father of his country”)
26 But not so among you; ( referring to the disciples who became anointed apostles of Christ.  “But not so among”… the anointed Body of Christ.)
on the contrary, he who is greatest among you, let him be as the younger, and he who governs as he who serves. 27 For who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves? Is it not he who sits at the table? Yet I am among you as the One who serves.”
In those few scriptures, we have the organizational setup – a GB/Benefactor who directs the elder body/”kings”, who rule over the sheep/”Gentiles”.  Where does the faithful and discreet slave come in?  According to Jesus, he isn’t sitting at the table where the GB has seated themselves.  If he has taken that seat, he is comparable to the wicked slave.  Matt 24:48-51  And, since the GB do sit at the table, expecting total obedience of the flock to their elder body, they have placed themselves above Christ. 
There, is scriptural reason to question, and reject, their authority. 
“You will be brought before governors and kings (judicial committee) for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; 20 for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
21 “Now brother will deliver up brother to death (disfellowshipping – a spiritual “death”), and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.  Matt 10:18-22
“And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.”   Matt 19:29
 
 
 

Did You Know?
You can openly and publicly question if the President of the United States is fit for office. You can question his policies, his statements, and his character. Your family and friends will not be taken away from you.
You can openly and publicly question the policies, fitness for office, statements, and character of governors, senators, congressmen, judges, and various other politicians and leaders in the United States. Your family and friends will not be taken away from you.
If you believe in a god, you can pray to your god questioning his authority, ability to rule, his decisions, and his purpose. When you open your eyes, you will find that your family and friends have not and will not be taken away from you.
Jesus had his authority questioned many times. (Matt. 21: 23-27) According to the Bible, he would have had the power to punish those questioning him. Yet, he did nothing to them. He harmed no one physically or emotionally.
You can confidentially question the ability to lead, the validity, the teachings, the doctrines and policies of the Governing Body to only two family members or close companions.  Your family and friends WILL be taken away from you. You will be labeled as dead, evil, and mentally diseased. You can and will likely lose all the social connections and relationships you have developed over a lifetime.
Only absolute dictators take away the rights of those they rule if their authority is questioned. Look at the examples of Stalin, Hitler, Bashar al-Assad, and Kim Jong Un. 
The Governing Body today will attend court hearings in other countries rejoicing when freedoms are granted to their followers. They will organize letter writing campaigns to lobby for religious freedoms of Jehovah's Witnesses. They will take legal arguments to the highest courts to fight for the rights of the organization that they govern. Yet, all it takes for you to lose all of your freedoms to be with your very own family is the admission to enough witnesses that you no longer believe the Governing Body are chosen by God and have authority over you. 
Did You Know? The Governing Body will fight tooth and nail for their own perceived freedoms, but they have no problems taking away your own freedoms and declaring you dead if you dare to question them.

Doesn't really matter in the context you refer to.
"If anyone thinks he has acquired knowledge of something, he does not yet know [it] just as he ought to know [it]. But if anyone loves God, this one is known by him." 1Cor 8:2-3 also
"Therefore, let those of us who are mature be of this mental attitude, and if you are mentally inclined otherwise in any respect, God will reveal the above attitude to you." Ph 3:15
So in summary, if I am sinning beyond redemption, there is no hope for me. Heb.10:26
But , from the scriptures quoted above, if I love God, He knows me, and if I have the wrong attitude, He will put me right.

"Now, when I talked to God I knew he'd understand
He said, "Stick by my side and I'll be your guiding hand
But don't ask me what I think of you
I might not give the answer that you want me to"  ?
 
 
 

@Sreko Sostar. I think you are basically saying that sincerity is good, but one can be sincerely wrong and therefore at times a posssible danger to others who might be inclined to follow men.
The Scriptures consistently warn us about this , but, thankfully, reassure us that Jehovah and His Son Jesus Christ know their sheep, and will ensure that they are cared for, kept safe, and importantly, are forgiven for their errrors. Rom.14:4 is very good advice to keep us focussed on the "more important things", and to avoid the pitfall of looking to men for salvation.

Regardless of the terminology and methodology we use to logically lay the foundations of what is true or false, with a mistake
or without a mistake, correctly understood or incorrectly understood, and so on ... there is one more thing to be taken into account. That is: self-persuasion and self-deception.
Most of people, of us,  will think/thinks about self with believing that they are among those who are healthy, beautiful, smart, good, ... belonging to the right, true group, religion, politics, family, nation... etc.
And with more self persuasion and self deception we are more sure in fictitious, wrong, err, distorted picture about yourself, who we are, what we are, and by that about other people, who are belong or not belong in "our group" or in "our idea" of how other people should  be look like, think like, act like and all other likes.
Good thing in such "self" can be self confidence and similar "selfie" that help us to survive in society.
Bad thing is this. If we are wrong, and many times we are :)))), we are, because of our self persuasion and self deception in position to deceive other people because they can see our sincerity and our faith in "story" we talking about. Some will be sceptious but some will accept "our faith in truth", but  that is in fact "faith in error, misrepresentation, misunderstanding, mistake, misapplication ...". :))

This is supposedly a doctrine that has been unchanged since 1879, and it's mostly right. But look at the following quote from the Watch Tower, April 1, 1920, p.103:
"The Finished Mystery," as one of the series of seven previously announced by Brother Russell. The doctrines therein set forth are in exact harmony with those announced by the other six. That it contains some mistakes is freely admitted. Even the Bible contains some. Here is another from the Watch Tower April 15, 1928, p. 126:
QUESTION: Is it proper for those who have been in the truth only a short while to go out and sell the Society's books? . . . Sometimes a member of a class will refuse to engage in the canvassing for the books because there are some mistakes in the books, and says his conscience will not permit him to put books in which there are mistakes into the hands of the people. Of course this is another method that the enemy adopts to confuse the minds and furnish an excuse for not being faithful to the Lord. As every one knows, there are mistakes in the Bible and there never has been a book written yet that is perfect that has been written by any human hand. . . .Those who engage in the service work are not supposed to stand on the street and preach, nor to give a technical explanation of the Scriptures.

Old light.  No longer is the "slave" determined to be all anointed ones.  

Tell Us, When Will All This Happen?

"Positive Criticism"
Hmmmmmmm .....
Is that like "Giant Shrimp"?
or "Military Intelligence"?
or "Skinny Broad"?
or "ice water"?
or "acting natural"?
or "horror comics"?
 

I can appreciate and understand COMPLETELY your position. It is also the reason why I decided to cancel my subscription to participate in the armed forces. Your point is very valid and your perspective is a correct one. I too have a different view of that exact structure and what it fosters. 
I fully acknowledge that the leadership of military organizations is chocked full of folks who have no business being in the positions they are in. It was my personal experiences that led me to reject that form of employment. I worked in many of the places that the "brass" did because of my abilities and training, I was secure comm and was slotted to become one of the elite. What I could not handle and agree with were the very things you mention. I could not continue to support an organization that deliberately went against morality to save face for a few, all the while putting those under them in harms way because of it. So I left. It really is no difference in the corporate world, except your are not there to protect anything but the higher ups bonus and no one is in harms way. 
When this philosophy is attached my eternal destiny, and not just my paycheck, things take a very different course of action. I do not throw my hat in ANY ring! Do I have fellowship? yes. Do I have those whom I seek for help on Spiritual matters? yes. Are they the end all be all and no questions when it comes to their interpretation? no. I cannot allow someone else to take the rudder out of my hands on something so important as this. Am I perfect and have all of the answers? no, but who is the one to answer to God when that day comes? Me and only me. So when I see organizations, such as the wt, make such high demands upon their members without the ability for them to question or disagree, I have to speak up about it. 
I am no prophet nor fortuneteller, but I strongly believe you will never see this happen, no one will. The reason why is the mistakes being made are far to serious and underhanded to be forgotten or dismissed to the educated mind. As our world progresses so does common knowledge (we hope), and it is only a matter of time before the truth about the "truth" comes out in such a way that the society/wt goes the way of the dodo. People are only as stupid as they allow themselves to be. If people choose to hide their head in the sand and ignore what is really going on, they will be ignorant and accept whatever is being fed to them. The history of this org and their claims and practices  should be enough, but at this point it isn't. One must now look into the past and compare the current teachings, if the material isn't lost or changed, and truly see if God is backing their actions. I have researched these things and cannot believe that God has anything to do with this org. Just like you said "All civilizations grow and evolve, and the casualties are ENORMOUS.   The United States of America has committed innumerable sins and evils in it's pursuit of righteousness, equity and Justice ... and is continuing to do so." , but none of the civilizations were the answer to our eternal destiny. It is a growth process, but you can only grow so very far by tyranny. Tyranny like those of the Pharaohs and Pharisees is what we are looking at within the wt from my view.  
 
 

That's the part I don't get either. 
 
I don't think if it were proven true that it would make any difference to you JTR. You'd still throw your hat in their camp, because its the best game in town, in your view. You've said as much. Your last sentence is a complete contradiction of what they have said for years and years, but its still not enough to convince you that this group the jws/wt is following men, use to be 7 men and now 8 again. You had mentioned in a different post that you are with the jws and it doesn't matter who is in charge or leading the group. While I agree that there are some fine folks who are jws and moral people they are for the most part, its still lemming mentality to continue to follow the group just because they are nice people being led by who knows. I will also apologize now for singling out just you here, I am sorry, I do not mean to make you upset or have a distaste for me. I like you, I like your sense of humor and your wit, and that is why I singled you out. 
I would hope that instances like this would make a person pause, take a step back and take an honest look at what is being taught/told/demanded of jws. The compounding problems that are coming up from this org should be enough for people to open their eyes and do diligent research on EVERYTHING, but sadly many are in a position in which they either cannot leave due to family, or are so blinded that they cannot see what is going on. When a group tells its people be ready to obey our instruction no matter how crazy we sound, that right there should be a red flag. Ignoring the obvious doesn't make it go away.  I see it daily, the jws keep on the edge of their seats waiting for the next hoop that they need to jump through to look good to each other. Its like high school, except in high school we didn't know any better and now as adults some still need that social group to belong to and refuse to grow up.