Srecko Sostar

This is almost too good to even comment on ....
@James Thomas Rook Jr. will have plenty to say I'm sure... LOL

I have thought the exact same thing ... with the exact same example.
It is real crying shame that most JWs have no idea what the value is of such simple education.
It's worth looking up .... and meditating on.

We have consistently reported that light means our understanding of things. However, we must differentiate between light-itself, and reflected light. For God is the source of light and he does not change. So light cannot be understanding since our understanding shifts constantly like the reflected light of the sun on the landscape as the sun rises up until noon or full daylight, when the day is at it's brightest, rather than a full or complete day as the sun sets. In that is another implication, that of the sun reaching its apparent peak at noon necessarily means that it wanes following the peak, that is if like the actual sun, it keeps moving forward and does not remain stationary   Of course, if it's a cycle, it will return to daylight eventually. Our understanding keeps changing yes, our viewpoint or perspective keeps changing, yes. But the light source has little apparent change if any. Also, too, the scenery changes over an extended time. What was once mountains and valleys may now be filled in oceans or covered in cities or roads. So the scene of this world keeps changing too. But we have stated that what we look at does not change, but our understanding or perspective of it. While true, if I stand outside my house on one side at dawn but simultaneously move one meter every hour clockwise, I will see both a different perspective and a different reflected light, than if I remained in front of the house all day long. So it does make me wonder, are we also moving around the object we're looking at as well as the sun moving across the spiritual sky? As this would be quite significant... It reminds me of the five blind sages who went to "see" an elephant story!

Ruling oriented brothers, just example :))) by John Cedars source. 
 
 

”Jehovah leads and feeds those in the earthly part of his organization by means of “the faithful and discreet slave” under the direction of Christ, the “head of the congregation.” w16 November pp. 14-18
If these men were “inspired”, the above statement would be true.  It takes inspiration from Holy Spirit, for them to receive Christ’s direction. Spirit must be infused in the person to guide them in the way of Christ; but we have it in print, that it is not the case with the GB. 1 John 2:4; 1 John 3:24
Instead, they rely on the voting system. It once was a required two-thirds majority in favor of passing new rules or doctrine; which at least you could understand that individuals had the freedom to reject an idea; although I was shocked that voting was even considered.  Now, the GB must be 100 percent in agreement when passing new rules/doctrine. 
How many teachings of past leaders have been rejected by today’s leaders?  How far back does it go, that Wt’s leaders were not inspired?  Whether two-thirds or 100 percent needed to agree on doctrine by men admitting to not having inspiration, it is apparent that it began with Russell. 
Maybe this new GB member is not rule-oriented, but it really doesn’t matter.  He must go with the flow, and it may be a rude awakening for him. 
These scriptures have spiritual fulfillment today:
“Jesus called them over and said, “You know that the rulers (elder body) of the Gentiles (those not anointed) lord it over them,
and those in high positions (GB) act as tyrants over them. 
 It must not be like that among you. On the contrary, whoever wants to become great among you (among the anointed chosen Body of Christ, since Jesus was speaking to his future apostles) must be your servant*, and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave*;  just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”  Matt 20:25-28
*This is not the practice with the GB.  They authorize their appointed rulers (elder body) to judge their fellow anointed slaves as not worthy of spiritual life.  Are they serving their brothers in Christ, or condemning them through acts of tyranny?  Matt 24:48-51; 1 John 2:9-11; James 2:4  Uninspired men fabricate rules and doctrine that every JW must obey, and it is called guidance from God through Christ – or from a “spirit-directed organization”.  I imagine in my mind a looming spiritual power within the world since that is where it is physically built and seen, breathing a spirit, but not from the Almighty God.  1 John 2:15-17; Eph 2:1,2; Rev 13:11-15
Without holy inspiration, in what manner does God and Christ guide the organization?  The GB? The members?  It can be said a thousand times that God directs the organization, the “faithful slave”, the elder body – yet one slip of truth will wipe out each and every one of those false claims.  That being, the Governing Body is not inspired by Holy Spirit; and if they are not inspired by God's spirit, neither is the organization.    1 John 2:27,18,19; Mal 3:18; Matt 24:4,5
 

Sorry but I think how such kind of appointment was  done by Jesus in 1 century to apostles and other spiritual men. :)) So why would  he repeat that again in 19 century. Because he said to apostles how he is with them in all times and periods till the end. This is CONTINUATION. :))

Oh dear Dee. This looked as complication to me :)) To make other illustration. Old Jew people as nation are physical and spiritual continuation from time of Moses until this day today.
Jehovah Witnesses have its beginning in 1935 as some kind of continuation of Bible Students (from 1879), because WTBTS is/was legal Mother of both group. By that we can talk about some sort of "physical and spiritual" continuation. 
But JW or WT have no connection with 1 century Jesus followers as CONTINUATION. Talking about "spiritual" connection and  continuation in such way is in field of speculation and wishes. :)) 

Ms DeeDee,
 
I’m not disputing that people can have a relationship with God, I’m saying that they did long before the JW religion came onto the scene. <><

Oh dear Dee. This looked as complication to me :)) To make other illustration. Old Jew people as nation are physical and spiritual continuation from time of Moses until this day today.
Jehovah Witnesses have its beginning in 1935 as some kind of continuation of Bible Students (from 1879), because WTBTS is/was legal Mother of both group. By that we can talk about some sort of "physical and spiritual" continuation. 
But JW or WT have no connection with 1 century Jesus followers as CONTINUATION. Talking about "spiritual" connection and  continuation in such way is in field of speculation and wishes. :)) 

Here is another:
Matthew 24:24-27  "For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."
Clearly here we are told that there will come some who proclaim that Jesus returned and you just didn't see Him, because He came invisibly. That just isn't true and doesn't line up with the Bible which clearly states His return WILL be visible. 

my question was about the celebration of Jesus birth, no matter what day it is done. Since Romans 14 tells us that each of us decides in his or her own heart on what day is above another, as long as it is to the glory of God, then Colossians 2 tells us that no one is to judge us by it. I wanted to know if you see it that way as well? or is there some other scripture that you believe overrides this? Or am I just wrong? 
That is what I was asking. 

Huh?
 
Then what you are really saying is that you think Jesus wants you to remain loyal to pagan rituals and rules? You made an oath while pagan, to which you agree is to the side of evil, and you think Jesus wants you to keep that oath? I really don't think you believe that, instead I think you made stuff up to try and look good, and now that you got caught, you have to keep up the pretending. 

hogwash and wishful thinking. If they in fact were a continuation of "spiritual" disciples, then they would have never deviated from what you claim is the "truth". They would have never celebrated Christmas nor worshiped Jesus. So your argument falls flat. You can try and spin with words, but it just doesn't add up. 

Ms DeeDee,
 
It is amusing how you guys only quote those passages that show Jesus is fully man and there stop, thinking you have proved He is not God. The Bible shows many times that Jesus is worshipped! 
 
JWs claim Jesus is Michael the archangel, now note please how Michael the archangel does not have the authority to rebuke Satan. We see in Jude 9 that Michael must bridle his tongue, so to speak, before the foe of man. We read, “But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you!’” (Jude 9).
 
In contrast Jesus rebuked the devil to his face (Matt 4:10). Since Michael could not rebuke the devil in his own authority and Jesus could (and did), then Jesus and Michael cannot be the same person! <><

Ms DeeDee,
 
With a gap of some 1900 years in-between...come on that’s just plain ridiculous. <><

Nana, doesn't Satan want us to look into his world for the "signs" of the end?  It's his realm.  Isn't this exactly what Jesus saw the Pharisees doing?  Matt  16:2,3   It's too easy to see what's going on and to apply all those signs to his return.  In Matt 24:15, Jesus said we had to use discernment to understand that pivotal scripture, which applies to Daniel's "fourth beast".
Of Daniel’s image, only four powers are represented.  We know from history that there were many more than four major powers to come and go; but unlike what you may believe, each power of the image has to do with God’s people.  Satan is the greatest foe against them. Nebuchadnezzar, the King of Babylon, represents Satan, and a formidable foe against Israel (along with Pharoah who also represents Satan).  This leaves three left.  Daniel tells us that the “fourth beast”/power also comes against the anointed ones in the time of the end, using a far different sort of power than previous ones. 
The “fourth kingdom” of Dan 2:40 is the “fourth beast” of Dan 7:7, with ten horns; and is the same Beast of Rev 13:1.  To verify that this fourth kingdom comes against the anointed ones, Rev 13:7 says,
“And it was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them. It was also given authority over every tribe, people, language, and nation.”
Dan 7:8, 21 - "While I was considering the horns, suddenly another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. And suddenly in this horn there were eyes like the eyes of a human and a mouth that was speaking arrogantly.   "As I was watching, this horn waged war against the holy ones and was prevailing over them”
Is this happening in the world with the Anglo-American power?
The anointed/holy ones/saints are mingled with other people when this is occurring. It is an alliance of two types of people – that of iron and clay.  God refers to his chosen people as “clay”, and of the earth (Dan 7:23).  2 Cor 4:7; Isa 41:25; Isa 64:8 The “iron” represents the foe, those not anointed, who come against and trample them. Matt 24:15; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Rev 11:1-3  For those anointed who fall in step with the “iron”, they are no longer molded by God, but by those who rule over them. 
The “daily sacrifice” is abolished and another form of “sacrifice” is presented by a false priesthood.    Dan 7:31  They are to “worship” an “image” that has been given authority to abolish the “daily sacrifice”/fruit of their lips.  Heb 13:15;Rev 13:15; Dan 11:31 ; 2 Thess 2:4
Can you see what I’m getting at?  The last power of Daniel’s image has nothing to do with the political entities that the Wt. tries to have you believe.  In fact, they will confuse you, by applying different terms to both Daniel’s fourth beast and Revelation’s Wild Beast of Rev. 13:1  The Wt. uses its own worldly supposition to explain Daniel’s fourth beast of iron and clay, without turning to God’s Word that describes who are the clay, and who are the iron. 
Iron – if “clay” represents God’s anointed ones/spiritual “Israel”, (Rom 2:28,29) “iron” are those spiritual “Gentiles” who rule over them. Lev 20:22,23; Ezek 11:12; Luke 22:25,26:Matt 24:49; Rev 2:9
This is not to say all “Gentiles” have hearts like iron (Rev 9:9; Ezek 36:26; 11:19; Zech 7:12)  Only those who are thirsty for prominence and power and greed; and also those who refuse to “see” the spiritual manifestation of the coming of Christ.  They are the ones who reject a “new heart” from the Father and Christ.  Ezek 36:26
The toes of Daniel’s image are those “kings of the earth”/clay (Dan 2:41,42) that align with Revelation’s Beast and bring the Harlot/false prophet down; then rule for “one hour” with Revelation’s Wild Beast.  Rev 1:6,5;5:9,10; John 18:36; Rev 19:16; 17:12-14; Dan 2:44
Literally, the GB will be ousted, and certain anointed ones (“10 kings”) will coordinate with spiritual “Gentiles” to keep the organization running without the GB – but only for “one hour”, a brief period of time.
All “kings” of the world will be gone when Daniel’s image is destroyed by the fulfilled true Mount Zion; but first and foremost, are those “kings/anointed ones of the earth” (Rev 1:5;5:10;19:16) whose clay has hardened into iron. 
The last anointed ones face Satan’s most deceptive “different” and “fearsome” power, the “fourth beast/Wild Beast”. If they give in to this power over them, they will not be among the small remnant that will survive.  Rev 12:17,15; Dan 11:10; Isa 24:6; Rev 20:9,10; Dan 7:9-11
"This is what he said: 'The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, different from all the other kingdoms. It will devour the whole earth, trample it down, and crush it.”  Dan 7:23
I am sure you are aware of the various quotes on the JW website about anointed ones needing to respect the elder body, not “meet” to study the Bible together, that they have no more Holy Spirit than the elder body, and that many scriptures that would apply to the anointed priesthood is applied to….the elder body.  They are guarded by hawks, and if they step out of line, they are disfellowshipped; which leads them, hopefully to salvation in Christ. Rev 3:18; Mal 3:2,3 This also applies to those “Gentiles” that truly cannot stand hypocrisy and lies as well.  John 16:2; Rev 12:11; 13:15
“He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time. 2 Thess 2:1-12
26 ‘But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’  Dan 7:25-27
 
 
 
 
 

Yes, obeying the law (pay taxes, follow the rules, etc.), however when it comes to one's faith being put at risk or to cease, as was said before, it would prompt Christians to try and prevent this from happening, one of the reasons I posted that link to my source in regards to the church fathers and of OSCE, as well as the remarks about Paul by one of the most well known Fathers. The same can be said about early Christians who defended themselves when their faith has been threaten. The other link I provided stated nearly something similar of the like, which I didn't put in my post before.
The thing is with modern day churches, it is said they tend to police themselves sometimes, seeing if they can handle situations on their own and if things do get worse than outside authority will be needed, others have also address such situations or problems and even speaks on the mistake of members of a church who have done something wrong, each church and denomination varies on this subject, even to us Unitarians. There was actually something to this regard that was mentioned on this video I watched on YouTube a while back, if I find it I would post it here, the same thing was brought up too by the anti-religion groups that also spoke on those videos. So in short, yes churches are enabled to deal with internal issues, however, if such issues become problematic, aid from outside authorities is necessary. Some matters don't really become public and or it is briefly mentioned regardless if said church accepts aid from outside or decide to handle the situation internally. However, regardless of the problem, churches and or church leaders should address situations, publicly if they wish, if it is due to a problem with the church, a problem with a member, etc, so at least the people are aware of what is going on.This goes for conflicts in a church too, especially if a pastor or leader has multiple churches with a multitude of members. In our case us Unitarians, if a problem does take place, there would be internal investigation first, if something is deemed problematic, without causing tension in a church, we would go speak with authorities, especially if there is conflict or misconduct that would result in something bad, i. e. a member of a church wanting to/planning to inflict serious injury to someone in the same church. Even though churches have main leaders too, those who they appoint to a specific church and the like, pastors or deacons, they too are subjected to this, but each and every one of them handles situations differently than the next, not sure if the Jehovah's Witnesses are set up this way, assuming their leaders are pastors and that the elders are deacons, if that is it.
But in the realm of Human Rights, the attack of one's religion or belief, acts of antisemitism, attacks from the irreligion groups that affect those of a faith, things of the nature, it will most definitely result in members of  faith/denomination to petition anything of that nature that is done to them, especially if it is a ban, suspension or cease of worship of their faith, they'll fight/defend themselves, thus preventing the teaching of God from stopping. In regards of the OSCE, the meeting of people of faith who come as representatives of their faith, in this case, The Jehovah's Witnesses who had their representatives there, does not automatically make anyone there complying with government officials on decisions done in world affairs, but they come to make petitions known in terms of Human Rights, and what can be agreed upon to prevent their practice of worship is not hindered by other groups and or those who persecute said faith. Religion-wise, that is pretty much the core of OSCE. The usual OSCE meetings consist of representatives from each denomination that routinely attend conferences of the OSCE. During these conferences people of their faith sit together, apart from others who sit with their faith groups alongside government officials and representatives from other religions to discuss these issues.

also exist many other who doing same or similar :)))

yes Shiwiii you are right.
This two "past and old truths and lights" you mentioned about WT are possible to understand with also "new and getting bright light". And this "new" is in explanation how, according to 2015 WT study edition, FDS aka GB are not EVEN/ AT ALL  appointed in 1919. So, all wrong and error doctrines in the past time and in this present time and of course in particular future time, are not prove hor JW are in any wrongs. Because all things will be in place when Jesus in fact WILL APPOINT THEM IN SOME FUTURE TIME. 
SO IT is OK to have all this and that ERRORS in INSTRUCTIONS and DOCTRINES. IT is quite NORMAL :))))))  

Hi!
Last explanation in WT magazine say how GB and FDS are the same. FDS task is to spread "spiritual food". GB spreading food, so GB is FDS. FDS have its beginning in 1 century in form of apostle who are, as WT said prototype of modern GB. If you are be careful in reading WT magazines (i am speaking about magazines in my language, croatian, to confirm the same i would need to go to original english version)   you will notice how first century governing body is with small first letter "g" and "b". But when they are talking about 20th century main church body they using big letter B and G - Governing Body. WHY? 
With the end of first congregations, i think that we have no  reports to confirm CONTINUATION you mentioned. And WT magazines also not writing about any continuation, just mentions about these or that small groups that was in some sort of opposition to beliefs of Catholic church. No gb or GB. No FDS or fds. Nothing. Then suddenly at the end of 19 century in period of many turbulent events, social movements and religious movements, one man after wandering, changing few religious belongings and searching for the "truth", founded the company  in 1881 as Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society for the purpose of distributing religious tracts. 
Do you want to believe that Jesus inspired him to give such corporative start of/to His Church, His Body?? For me it is very strange such idea - because Jesus start His Church in very different way. :))

but this admittance proves that they were NOT a continuation of the disciples as you claim. If they were then they would not have deviated, unless of course they were led by a power not from God. 
Then why did you claim that there was? Here is your quote:

Hi!
Last explanation in WT magazine say how GB and FDS are the same. FDS task is to spread "spiritual food". GB spreading food, so GB is FDS. FDS have its beginning in 1 century in form of apostle who are, as WT said prototype of modern GB. If you are be careful in reading WT magazines (i am speaking about magazines in my language, croatian, to confirm the same i would need to go to original english version)   you will notice how first century governing body is with small first letter "g" and "b". But when they are talking about 20th century main church body they using big letter B and G - Governing Body. WHY? 
With the end of first congregations, i think that we have no  reports to confirm CONTINUATION you mentioned. And WT magazines also not writing about any continuation, just mentions about these or that small groups that was in some sort of opposition to beliefs of Catholic church. No gb or GB. No FDS or fds. Nothing. Then suddenly at the end of 19 century in period of many turbulent events, social movements and religious movements, one man after wandering, changing few religious belongings and searching for the "truth", founded the company  in 1881 as Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society for the purpose of distributing religious tracts. 
Do you want to believe that Jesus inspired him to give such corporative start of/to His Church, His Body?? For me it is very strange such idea - because Jesus start His Church in very different way. :))

My thought is that it just makes it clearer to read as a single entity.
This is because when you see the words Governing Body in a sentence (like here) it is read as ONE thing not TWO.

but it is a practice that the jws/bible students participated in prior to 1935 or so. So what this means is, your claim  "they are the ones who did not follow the false teachings........" cannot be true based on your ideas of what is false teachings.
There is no mention of jws/bible students, as the groups we know today/last century,  in the Bible. So your claim that they are the continuation of the disciples, is false unless you can provide proof otherwise. 

Ms DeeDee,
 
2000 years ago Jesus said His church would NEVER cease to exist...so where has the JWs form of religion being for so long? <><