Srecko Sostar

Really good point. Do our extreme shunning policies give exJWs a justification for leaving the religion and staying away?
I think of 1 Corinthians 10:31-33: "Therefore, whether you are eating or drinking or doing anything else, do all things for God’s glory. Keep from becoming causes for stumbling to Jews as well as Greeks and to the congregation of God, just as I am trying to please all people in all things, not seeking my own advantage, but that of the many, so that they may be saved."
Our org always focuses on stumbling fellow JWs, but the scripture indicates we are not supposed to stumble anyone...Jew, Greek, or Christian. When I reflect on the disfellowshipping video at the convention, doesn't our extreme stance cause great stumbling? JW parents aren't even supposed to pick up the phone when their daughter calls? Imagine if that daughter was terminally ill or had suffered a personal tragedy. Or maybe she just needed some support at a dark time? That would make most bitter. It seems our love extends only to some.
And when the prodigal son returned to his father, he didn't wait around for some committee to approve fellowship. He embraced him immediately.

Sorry if i am bored, but "1975 events", as unpleasant and inseparable part of WT JWorg history, was portion of official convention spiritual food program this year. GB digging their own and yours (members) past. Perhaps GB looking to much apostate channels about 1975 and been provoked to put this same subject as "proper food in proper time" (with late of few decades :)))))))) almost half century.   

hehe, you know what people said: do not talk about religion, politics and sport... and you will drink your coffee with person, of opposite stand, in peace :))))))) 

According to this text in "Shepherd book", page 84,85 woman in JW congregation are viewed as minor children, not entitled to hear information that are important for her marriage and family life and her life at all. JW elders look at them as a people of the second rank. Even a male underage child or teenager or young male/man, who is baptized, has a higher status than any sister, young or old, single or married, publisher, pioneer or missionary or anointed.
Meeting With Marriage Mates
11. If the accused is a married sister, it is best
to have her believing husband present for the hearing.
He is her head, and his efforts to restore her and
direct her can be very helpful. (1 Cor. 11:3) If unusual
circumstances are involved or the elders feel it would
be best not to invite the husband because of their
concerns for the safety of the wife, the elders should
call the branch office.
12. If the accused is a married brother, his
wife would normally not attend the hearing. However,
if the husband wants his wife to be present, she
may attend a portion of the hearing. The judicial
committee should maintain confidentiality.
13. If the husband committed adultery, he
has an obligation to inform his wife of the facts. The
judicial committee should promptly inquire of the
Christian wife as to what her husband has told her. If
he refuses to inform her of his adultery, the elders
should inform her that because of her husband’s
conduct, it is up to her to decide whether to pursue a
Scriptural divorce or not. Furthermore, they should
inform the innocent mate that her resuming sexual
relations with the guilty mate would negate any
claim to Scriptural freedom. But they should not give
her further details. On the other hand, the elders
may find that while the husband did confess adultery
to his wife, he did not tell her the full extent of his
wrong conduct and left out important information
that the wife should know. The elders should not pro-
84 “Shepherd the Flock of God”—1 Peter 5:2
vide this confidential information to the wife, but
they can suggest that she speak with her husband
again. Even if he does not tell her anything more, this
will alert her to the fact that he is withholding information
from her, and this may help her to determine
whether to forgive or not.
Chapter 6                                                                    85

Hi, 
this job you had done in that period looks like Geoffrey Jackson respond before ARC, how GB expects from all members who read/to read Bible and reject all false, error and wrong instructions, teachings that coming from Organization and to filter all teachings and opinions expressed in publications.
No matter of "side effect". :))

AllenSmith:
I followed your link.
If I had not actually been there and seen what happened from Virginia to California, it would ALMOST be believable. The Frenzy was EVERYWHERE. It was consistent on both coasts, at Kingdom Halls and Assemblies, and I made many cartoons making fun of the ludicrousness of the 1975 frenzy. 
Unfortunately, year after year it wore me down and I began to reason "How could I be right, and everybody I know in the Truth be wrong?", and I quit a terrific job in the African Congo to be home in Virginia with my family when the end was to come.
This proves that youth is wasted on the young ... and the fact that I "caved" is an everlasting embarrassment that I have tried never to duplicate, even if it means telling some Brother much more theoretically inclined than I am to "go to hell".
That's where Liberty and Integrity begin.
However noble the goal, or how well intentioned ... It is evil to try and defend Truth ... with lies.

I thought it would be a good idea to look into the ways in which we defend ourselves against the claims about 1975, and the way in which we answer questions about it. As a good example I will start with the way in which a person answered a 1975 challenge on YAHOO ANSWERS. The person signed their name as BAR-ANERGES. I'll assume the person is male. He is evidently not a member of this forum, and may no longer be alive, for all I know. But if anyone knows him, or his whereabouts, I hope he gets a chance to respond himself.
I'll just make some short comments to state my own opinion of what he said. I'll mark his words in a different color, like red.
It is an absolute lie to claim that the Witnesses said that Armageddon would come in 1975. He's right that it is incorrect to claim that "the Witnesses said that Armageddon would come in 1975." For a couple of reasons.
The most important reason is that this supposed claim is a kind of "straw man" that is worded in such a way that it diverts attention from the main point. It's true that no Witnesses should have been saying that Armageddon would come in 1975, in the sense that it must definitely come in 1975. The real question should be whether the claim is true that Jehovah's Witnesses promoted the idea that the Bible had marked the year 1975 in such a way that we could confidently claim that Armageddon should be expected within just a few years, or even just a few months, from the year 1975. Did Jehovah's Witnesses make use of this particular time period that focused on the year 1975 to justify the claim that people should decide quickly to convert and join the organization of Jehovah's Witnesses for safety from imminent destruction at Armageddon? Also, the term "the Witnesses" can refer to a wide range of people and opinions. If we accept that the views of the Witnesses are represented in Watchtower publications, then we also have to accept that not everything said about 1975 was completely consistent. If we accept that the views of the Witnesses are represented by the Watchtower's traveling representatives (circuit overseers, district overseers, branch representatives, Watch Tower Society directors, Governing Body, etc.) then again we have to accept that not everything said about 1975 was completely consistent. Anna has already pointed out that Charles Sinutko's infamous talk is not even consistent within itself.  Here is an article from *1974* that I carry around with me which shows what mature Witnesses knew and were saying: This statement should raise a red flag immediately. We already know that not everything that was said or written was consistent. So we should be immediately wary of making use of one specific statement to generalize what "mature Witnesses knew and were saying." Also, if we look carefully at all the statements in the Watchtower publications from 1966 to 1975 we can see that by October 1974 the trend of the statements about 1975 had already begun to be more cautious. The most direct statements were made from 1968 to 1973. This is a typical pattern with predictions. It happens in corporations, political and economic analysis, and religion:
The initial idea is floated, often with a bit of caution. Then someone is sure enough to begin championing the prediction and begins to stake their reputation on it. Then as confidence builds, those statements become more and more direct and less careful. Then as the time approaches and the kinds of surrounding expectations that might have validated the prediction aren't there yet, real caution kicks in, and if necessary, some backtracking begins. After the failure is obvious, we can expect blame and finger-pointing. Statements about the time period dating back to 1956 were in stage #1. Statements in 1966 were already in stage #2. Dozens of district overseers and circuit overseers along with statements by the service department until 1973 were in stage #3. F.W.Franz himself appeared to remain in stage #3 until 1975, but he also had vacillated into stage #4 at times during the 1974-1975 period. The 1974 summer assemblies, and the 1974 Watchtower quoted here, were in stage #4. Stage #5 had already begun at Bethel as early as late 1975 and early 1976, even though the initial definition of the time period was not about what would happen in 1975, but what would happen in the short number of years or months following 1975.
"The publications of Jehovah's Witnesses have shown that, according to Bible chronology, it appears that 6,000 years of man's existence will be completed in the mid-1970's. But these publications HAVE NEVER SAID THAT THE WORLD'S END WOULD COME THEN. Nevertheless, there has been considerable individual speculation on the matter. So the assembly presentation "Why We Have Not Been Told ‘That Day and Hour'" was very timely. It emphasized that we do not know the exact time when God will bring the end."--w74 10/15 p. 635 "It appears" that 6,000 years of man's existence will be completed in the mid-1970's." Note the backtracking (stage #4). Note even some "finger-pointing" (stage#5) in blaming considerable "individual speculation." The 1966 book (see first post in this topic) said "Six thousand years since man's creation will end in 1975." It did not say "it appears." Now, the new Watchtower didn't even want to use the term "1975" but changed it to "mid-1970's." Previously the question had been "What will the 1970's bring?" But this brings up an important caveat about stage#3 and stage#4 above. As Witnesses, we had an internal policy and external policy. So even while we could expect the more "reckless" stage#3 statements in our own special meetings from traveling overseers, circuit assemblies, and service meetings -- we could expect more careful stage#4 statements when we addressed the public in Sunday public addresses at the same assemblies or district conventions. In preaching, we were careful in such a way that we could even use language that meant stage#4 to the public while we were simultaneously able to treat it as less careful stage#3 speech. Here's a subtle example from a 1970 Watchtower:
*** w70 4/15 p. 256 Announcements ***
WHAT WILL THE 1970’S BRING? Many believe that the 1970’s will see drastic changes in man’s affairs, some hoping for the better, others fearing the worst. What is your view? Whether good or bad, no man knows for sure unless Jehovah God himself reveals it. Will he do so? His own Word says, Yes! Through his prophet Amos, Jehovah has promised: “For the Lord Jehovah will not do a thing unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets.” (Amos 3:7) Do not guess! And do not be unprepared! Whatever the future holds, it can work to your good if you read the Bible regularly, assisted by The Watchtower. Send today. One year, $1. Write now and receive free three timely booklets on Bible subjects. While we were not stating it for sure to the public, internally we all knew what it means that Jehovah is revealing his confidential matter to his servants the prophets. We don't have to guess. We don't have to be unprepared. This is the same idea in Sinutko's talk, saying that "we don't have to guess." ( He said: "Well, we don't have to guess what the year 1975 means if we read the Watchtower. And don't wait 'till 1975. The door is going to be shut before then.")
Compare the 1970 announcement to the same type of announcement just 2 years earlier:
*** w68 4/15 p. 256 Announcements ***
WHAT DOES YOUR FUTURE HOLD? What will the future bring you? Will it bring you peace of mind and security? Will it bring you faith and favor with God? It can! Regular reading of the Bible and following its teachings closely will bring you this and more. To ensure your full appreciation and understanding of what you read you need The Watchtower also. Study it with your Bible and receive the greatest benefit from what lies ahead. Send at once and receive three timely booklets on Bible subjects. One year, $1. This type of ramping up of the rhetoric was common. There are several more examples.
I'll stop here for now, so this doesn't become impossibly long.

The same is true if the tensions with North Korea start a thermonuclear World War III.
 
There is NOTHING we can do about it.
 
If EITHER ONE happens, I am going to put a lawn chair in the middle of the street, with a cooler full of beer, and watch the show !
 

Just going back to the 1967 Charles Sinutko talk, it is eerily similar to what we would hear now, except minus the gore and gloating over the death of billions. Thankfully we have toned down on the descriptive part of the vengeance of Jehovah, including the "see, we told you!" attitude. Also our talks are much more refined in other ways too. But as regards the end, terminology such as "so very near" "on the brink" and whatever other ways of describing the imminent end, that is still the same. Even him mentioning that "many of us have been waiting for the end for many years, and we are getting tired and weary now". I am not criticizing the pep talks to keep us on our toes at all. It was just very strange, listening to a talk given 50 years ago, and it sounding the same as some talks do now. I just thought of that after I read @JW Insider comment regarding Br. Russell imagining people looking back 100 years. Of course we really can look back 100 years now. That is the point JWI was making no doubt.
I wonder if Charles Sinutko is still alive. It would be interesting to talk to him. (There is a story about him in the 2004/8/22 Awake... Interestingly, reading his story, he never mentions 1975).
P.S. "Jehovah has given us a new year.....1975 "meat in due season".......Jehovah has given us.........where have I heard that before? That might explain why I get a little skeptical when I hear this kind of reasoning now....Is it always Jehovah? Or can it be imperfect humans sometimes?
 
 
 

Still conjecture I'm afraid....
Yes, I am aware, I was only being brief. I understand the reasoning behind it. But still, we cannot say that this is what Jesus had in mind....

On 6/19/2017 at 10:16 PM, @Anna said: "First of all the "overlapping generation" is not a doctrine. As I already stated, it is an opinion"
There are a number of terms which although fairly neutral in themselves, have come to have quite emotive, and often negative,  association, particularly in the field of religious discussion.
These include dogma; doctorine; teaching; tradition; belief; interpretation; opinion. You might think of others, such as decree.
For example, the word "dogma" is quite innocently defined as above by @Srecko Sostar, but when one brings in a definition such as below, one can see the controversial possibilities and the potential for the clouding of rational discussion.
Catholic Encyclopedia:
"In Catholicism a dogma, unlike a simple belief, is said to be a truth solemnly formulated either by an ecumenical council or by the pope’s “infallible magisterium.” 
"When, therefore, the Church explains the meaning of a dogma this interpretation is to be maintained in all future time, and it can never be deviated from under pretence of a more profound investigation.” 
It often appears that when discussion on whether an understanding of an aspect of the Bible fits a particular category of the list given takes place, it is carried out from the standpoint of seeking to avoid the negative connotations of those formerly, purely descriptive terms.
Also, one cannot leave out of the scenario those "lurking bogeymen": heresy and apostasy.
 

This few man who running this Corporative Religion.... No offence to JW member. Two facts are; WTBTS is Company, Corporation, and Jehovah's Witnesses are international group who are associated themselves (again, under management of  WT inc.) to worship God..... to continue ....this few man are full of controversy in publicly addressed talks (and in written quotes).
One said, "We are not hiding peadofiles, we are clean organization." Other said "We have good policy against child perpetrators and protect minors." Other said, "We giving spiritual protection, secular government have to provide physical protection."
One said, "Stick with what we have authorised and you will be safe". Other said, "JW around the world have own Bibles and are able to see if we give wrong, error instruction and will do by own conscience".   
JW people looks to much their JW National TV  without "Critical Thinking", worldly terminology, hehe. That means in other words, biblical terminology - "TEST the spirits!"

Good point.
Watchtower’s governing body member, Anthony Morris, stated just recently that the “theocratic organization” receives its decisions or “decrees” from God.  (JW broadcasting)
He comments, “When that direction comes out to Branch committee members, or when it comes out to the congregations; If you want Jehovah’s blessing on you as an individual or family, certainly as an elder or congregation, it’d be best to ask Jehovah to help you understand it, but OBEY THE DECISION.
JWs are being told that whether they understand Watchtower’s decrees or not, they must be obeyed.  Jesus tells us how we are to discern what a true teaching is.  Matt 7:15-20; Luke 6:43-45 
He continues, “This is a theocracy ruled by God, not a collection of man made decisions.  This is governed from heaven.”
This is utterly impossible, since the Governing Body admitted to not being inspired.  (Wt. 2017/2 pp. 20-26, par. 12)  
Anthony Morris commented, “the decisions that are made by the faithful slave today, are made collectively.  Not one man is making these decisions, these decisions are made collectively”.
Do JWs see the conundrum?  Firstly, he says they are not a collection of man made decisions. Then says, the decisions are made collectively.  Honestly; these are your leaders, JWs, who are speaking out of both sides of the mouth! 
“Now if any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God—who gives to all generously and ungrudgingly—and it will be given to him.  But let him ask in faith without doubting. For the doubter is like the surging sea, driven and tossed by the wind. 7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord,  being double-minded and unstable in all his ways.“  James 1:5-8
 Uninspired men are proclaiming they are the channel used by God who governs the organization from heaven; and yet, it is through Holy Spirit that God would grant the understanding of His will. John 14:15-17   Is there another “channel” aside from Holy Spirit? Yes, there is. 
“For if a person comes and preaches another Jesus, whom we did not preach, or you receive a different spirit, which you had not received, or a different gospel, which you had not accepted, you put up with it splendidly!”  2 Cor 11:4
“A good person produces good out of the good stored up in his heart. An evil person produces evil out of the evil stored up in his heart, for his mouth speaks from the overflow of the heart.”  Luke 6:45
“Inspiration” means inhalation; a drawing in of breath.  The antonym is “exhalation” – the breath that leaves via the mouth.  Since the GB admit to not receiving Holy Spirit – “inspiration”, their gospel is sourced in another spirit. Only one type of “inspiration” can fill the heart – and overflow it.   
God’s true messengers/witnesses receive inspiration from Holy Spirit. It is what teaches faithful anointed ones. 1 John 2:20,27; John 14:26  There is no inter-mediator; no consulting in an interior room, behind closed doors, or voting on a “decree”. John 16:12-14; Matt 10:20; Luke 12:12; Matt 24:23-27   
These uninspired men must rely on each other to pass their decrees, which all JWs must obey, even if  their decrees are later considered an 'err in direction'.
“If you died with Christ to the elements of this world, why do you live as if you still belonged to the world? Why do you submit to regulations:  “Don’t handle, don’t taste, don’t touch”?  All these regulations refer to what is destined to perish by being used up; they are human commands and doctrines.  Although these have a reputation for wisdom by promoting self-made religion, false humility, and severe treatment of the body, they are not of any value in curbing self-indulgence.”  Col 2:20-23
“Now God has revealed these things to us by the Spirit, since the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God.  For who knows a person’s thoughts except his spirit within him? In the same way, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 
Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the spirit who comes from God, so that we may understand what has been freely given to us by God. 
 We also speak these things, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people.
But the person without the Spirit (the uninspired governing body) does not receive what comes from the God’s Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to understand it since it is evaluated spiritually.
The spiritual person, (one individual) however, can evaluate everything, and yet he himself cannot be evaluated by anyone. 1 Cor 2:10-15
Following and obeying men and their teachings who pass decrees devoid of Holy Spirit, yet hypocritically say they have their source in God, are hiding the true source of the spirit that guides them.  John 8:44
By accepting these hypocritical teachings, the hearer is also receiving a “different spirit”.  Yet, JWs put up with it – “splendidly”.  2 Cor 11:4
Why?
1 Pet 3:10; 3 John 11
 

Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow.
Take care of your body as if you were going to live forever; and take care of your soul as if you were going to die tomorrow. 
Smile like you’ve never cried, fight like you’ve never lost, love like you’ve never been hurt, and live like you’ll die tomorrow.
 
 
 

Wow. Wow. Wow Wow. Wow.
And wow.
Where did you hear this?
 
- Is 1914 enthronement a doctrine or an opinion?
- Is 1919 appoint of a FDS a doctrine or an opinion?
 
Depending on how you answer, could you please explain the distinction between JW "doctrines" and "opinions".
If you can do that I will return the favor by explaining it back to you thereafter, and also explaining why I feel it is so.
 

There is a story that runs on the Internet, including Facebook channels of Jehovah's Witnesses, which mentions an overseer's speech.
Obviously I can not know if it is reality or if the speech has been "inflated".
However, there is certainly something true.
He basically says something like this: "I would like to let you know how the Governing Body feels.We work close to the Governing Body and we know it.The Governing Body feels we are very close to the time of the end.
Do you know what Matthew 24:14 says? Do you know how many countries are missing to reach all the inhabited earth? Only 3 countries "
Obviously I paraphrased: these are not the exact words but this is the meaning.
It is obvious that "stretching the broth", sooner or later will come the end, is not it?
So, sooner or later, "do downtown."
The problem, however, is more serious than guess or a wrong date.
The problem is to understand if "the calculations" we make are in harmony with the scriptures or are personal, human visions.
I invite you to read Jeremiah 23: 1, 16
it is too easy and superficial to say "Those who abandoned the Truth in 1975 did not really love Jehovah."
Everyone will carry his weight and this is valid for those who have left the truth but also for those who have taught falsehood.
Indeed the Scripture says that "the masters" will receive a more severe judgment.
If all that has been written in the past was written to "our instruction," we should find similarities or at least guidelines to understand if our concept of "short time left" or "generation" is correct. When Jesus spoke of the end of the system of things said "this generation will not pass at all" - Mark 13:30 For a moment, we forget everything that has been said about this writing (and the word "generation") and focus on the Jewish system. There is no doubt that the Lord spake also this fact, and this is one of the reasons why certain opponents dispute the "sign of the end times." By mentioning the armies camped and pointed stakes and many other things related to the first century (things that came true) it is clear that at least part of the sign concerned the destruction of the Jewish system, including the Temple - Matthew 24:15; Mark 13:14; Luke 21:20 So we must start from the principle that the generation that would not pass, at least in the first fulfillment of this prophecy, was the generation that would see the war and the armies camped on Jerusalem or the present generation at the time of the Lord (which on balance is always the same generation). Saying "this generation," Jesus could mean "this present day." In any case, the times do not change, because in the words of the Lord until the destruction of Jerusalem passed less than forty years, and therefore comes in that generation - see Luke 23: 28-31 In the second case, from the time when Christians saw "the armies camped" spent three and a half years. We can assume, honestly, that the Christians of the first century did much debate on the concept of "generation" which could be their or someone else's, or maybe the Lord would mean "generations"? It is not reasonable to believe. Christ's disciples understood the Lord's words exactly what they were. Even if they could not know exactly "day and time" knew that their generation was. All these "problems" would not exist if we had the humility to re-discuss the "start date" of this "incomprehensible generation". A single error always leads to other errors. The problem is not "a date wrong" but the attitude of subjection that is created towards a certain guide.
And this will lead to an adverse judgment.
What is the use of knowing "when the end comes" if our expectations are wrong?

Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow.
Take care of your body as if you were going to live forever; and take care of your soul as if you were going to die tomorrow. 
Smile like you’ve never cried, fight like you’ve never lost, love like you’ve never been hurt, and live like you’ll die tomorrow.
 
 
 

Once the cat is out of the bag, you can't put it back in, no matter how hard you try.

Was Fred Franz, the vice president of the Society during that time period, one who was told NOT TO SPECULATE? And by who?   Or, could it have been the leaders who reviewed and gave a subsequent thumbs up to the 10/8/1968 Awake plus many other articles that apparently only misled .1% of the JW population at the time?  
That says something about the lack of interest in the magazines...or public announcements. 
 

If you mean 99.9 % didn't leave the Truth, you may be right. But if you mean that only 0.1% were disappointed, then you are blatantly wrong.

Thanks Witness. Your fine understanding and patient to respond is appreciate.  

So in May 1974 you were commended if you sold your homes and property.
In 2017 if you were one of those that sold your home and property you were weak and dedicated to "a date".
The mind boggles. Is your mind boggled? Dont let it boggle too much!