Srecko Sostar

I was kidding about the SPF 5 Million sun tan lotion .... only.
It was a joke about the loving, kind retribution I expect to get locally.
As a matter of dealing with the WTB&TS and the GB ...  and secular authorities over many, many years, I suspect the Russian Embassy will not cash the check but will send me an English Transcript of the Supreme Court decisions.
It will probably take about two months.
I suspect the Society will NOT send a transcript in ANY language, but will cash the check.
From the Society, I suspect I  will get a form letter thanking me for my contribution, and not mention me asking for the transcripts,  in about three months, but the check will clear in about three weeks.
All of this is based on historical experiences ...
What will really happen I don't know ... of course.
 

They do this full time, so when would you expect them to go to work to earn money for a living?

For complete and unrestricted freedom of speech, I will bend myself into a pretzel!
I LIKE a "free association", "who knows where the conversation will lead"  semantics and subject brawl.
It's called "Thinking Out Of The Box" .... and I am all for it.
THAT way ... when you discover "New Light" ... next year you just add to it, because it was correct to start with!
 "Old Light" is just darkness, mis-labeled.
.
 

You're just jealous aren't you?

Never know with you, are you actually being serious?

I have a friend who is not anointed.  She has left the organization, is disfellowshipped; not for sin, but for rejections of lies.  She now feels she knows the truth through Christ, by listening to him as God directed us. Luke 9:35   She happened to pray about one person she loves and who is still in the organization.  Normally being someone who resists going to town, she was convinced by her daughter, a to go to the market with her.  She went, the next day after praying for the individual.  Surprisingly, she saw the very person in the market she had prayed for and was able to get a note to her discreetly even though another JW family member was there; a note about truth.   
Was my friend blessed by Holy Spirit, does Holy Spirit reside in her?  She feels her prayer was answered by the grace of God, as do I.   Is it the same spirit that an anointed one receives?  Yes.  There is only one spirit that gives life from God and Christ (John 6:63); only one spirit that brings us to truth, (1 Cor 2:12) but the way we receive Holy spirit can differ, but it always reaches the heart.   In the anointed ones, the Holy Spirit from God dwells within them.  1 Cor 6:19; John 14:17; Matt 10:20; Rom 8:11; 1 Cor 3:16
We can all be children of God, but the “firstborn” pave the way for the rest of God’s children, just as Christ’s sacrifice opened the way for life for those of His anointed Body/Bride through the New Covenant.   Through them, through their sacrifice of denying themselves, submitting to purification through affliction caused by Satan’s demand to sift them as wheat, acknowledging God’s decrees written on the heart and living in harmony with them, brings about their “sealing” into the “heavens”.  The early priesthood offered sacrifices to God on behalf of the people.  The “holy priesthood” (1 Pet 2:5,9) offer themselves as a sacrifice on behalf of the rest of God’s children. 1 Pet 2:5; Rev 12:11  In this way, they imitate Christ fully.  Christ and his Bride, will bring life to the rest of Abraham’s seed. She will be the fulfillment of the New Covenant – the heavenly “mother”  of Gal 4:26
You mentioned Rom 8:9-11
If we read further:
“For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God (the sealed anointed ones). “
Doesn’t “creation” include mankind?  Can you see the “sons of God” are separate, to be revealed?
“For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;  because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.”
Isn’t mankind in general under Satan’s corruptive rule? 
 “For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.” 
Once New Covenant promise/”woman” “gives birth”,  God’s Kingdom arrives. Gal 4:26,27
23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 
This tells us that the Spirit is the same for all; but the anointed who must sacrifice their life for God’s other children, are the first recipients of life, just as the oldest child born in a family receives life first. As I had mentioned before, each anointed one under the New Covenant faces these “labor pains” of affliction and refinement. 
Both covenants with the nation of Israel and Abraham, “Hagar”and “Sarah”, (Gal 4:24,25,31,36) were fulfilled by Jesus; who was the promised “seed” of Abraham (Gal 3:16).  His mother was the covenant with the Jews (Israel), and Sarah.  His Father was God and Abraham.  Matt 3:17; Matt 1:1
The New Covenant promise – the “woman” who is in labor, is “Sarah”. Gal 4:26; Rev 12:1,2
Once the anointed have offered their “sacrifice”, and the “Bride”/Temple is complete, the “woman” promise/covenant “gives life” to the rest of God’s earthly family.(Rev 6:9; 14:1; Eph 1:10; 2:21; 1 Pet 2:5)
Heaven is not a final destination for the Bride/”144,000”.  Rev 1:6; 5:9,10  Just as  Srecko Sostar had commented on, they will walk among all God’s children upon the earth, since the earth is also their inheritance.  To be “born again” as a “new creation” is both as a human and a spirit, which we saw Jesus do when appearing to the disciples after he rose from the dead. John 3:5,6,3 When they are called to heaven, it is to learn God’s decrees, and share with all his children, just as the early priesthood taught his people.  Mal 2:7; Jer 31:33,34   Jacob had a dream of this when seeing the ladder and God’s angels “ascending and descending” from heaven to earth. Gen 28:12 Jesus also spoke of this in John 1:51, when they would be “ascending and descending on the Son of Man” – Jesus Christ.  These angels are “messengers” – the anointed ones and Christ’s Bride, who worship Christ. Mark 14:62; Heb 12:1;Mat 25:31; Heb 1:6; Rev 21:2 
If you read Isa 60, you can see “New Jerusalem”/ the Holy City/Temple/Zion will be on the earth through Christ and his Bride and among mankind. They are the dwelling of the spirit of God, which is how he will “dwell” among his children.
 “But it happened that night that the word of the Lord came to Nathan, saying,  “Go and tell My servant David, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Would you build a house for Me to dwell in?  For I have not dwelt in a house since the time that I brought the children of Israel up from Egypt, even to this day, but have moved about in a tent and in a tabernacle. 7 Wherever I have moved about with all the children of Israel, have I ever spoken a word to anyone from the tribes of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people Israel, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’ 2 Sam 7:4-7
“When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom.  He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.”   2 Sam 4:12,13
Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
 But He was speaking of the temple of His body”  John 2:20-21 
“Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,  having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,  in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.” Eph 2:19-22 
“And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.”  Rev 21:3
 
 
 

The last one is really twisted.  "Jesus encouraged his followers to love their enemies, but God's Word"...    Jesus did more than just "encourage" loving one's enemy, he said:   "But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven"  Matt 5:44,45     Even though Jesus is the "Word", Wt. took his command and lessened its impact by stating it as, encouragement.  It is therefore, okay to hate.  John 1:1
"Do not be surprised, my brothers and sisters, if the world hates you."  1 John 3:13 

Is this sound like hate speech?
Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.11 
"Apostates “quietly” bring their ideas into the congregation, like criminals who secretly bring things into a country. Apostates use “counterfeit words.” This means that they say things that make their false ideas sound true, like criminals who make false documents look real. They try to get as many people as possible to believe their “deceptive teachings.” Peter also said that they like twisting the Scriptures. They explain Bible verses in the wrong way to make others believe their ideas. (2 Peter 2:1, 3, 13; 3:16) Apostates do not care about us. If we follow them, we will leave the road to everlasting life. 
... The Bible says that apostates are mentally diseased and that they use their teachings to make others think like them. (1 Timothy 6:3, 4) Jehovah is like that good doctor. He clearly tells us to stay away from false teachers. We must always be determined to follow his warning. 
Watchtower 2004 Feb 15 p.28 
"It would be a mistake to think that you need to listen to apostates or to read their writings to refute their arguments. Their twisted poisonous reasoning can cause spiritual harm and can contaminate your faith like rapidly spreading gangrene. (2 Timothy 2:16, 17) Rather, imitate God's response to apostates. Job said of Jehovah: "Before him no apostate will come in." - Job 13:16." 
Watchtower 1993 November 1 p.19 
"True Christians share Jehovah's feelings toward such apostates; they are not curious about apostate ideas. On the contrary, they "feel a loathing" toward those who have made themselves God's enemies, but they leave it to Jehovah to execute vengeance." 
Watchtower 1992 July 15 pp.12-13 Christ Hated Lawlessness-Do You? 
"The obligation to hate lawlessness also applies to all activity by apostates. Our attitude toward apostates should be that of David, who declared: "Do I not hate those who are intensely hating you " 
Watchtower 1961 July 15 p.420 A Time and Place for Everything 
Jesus encouraged his followers to love their enemies, but God's Word also says to "hate what is bad." When a person persists in a way of badness after knowing what is right, when the bad becomes so ingrained that it is an inseparable part of his make-up, then in order to hate what is bad a Christian must hate the person with whom the badness is inseparably linked. Indicating that Jesus did not mean for us to love the hardened enemies of Jehovah, David expressed this God-approved attitude: "Do I not hate those who are intensely hating you, O Jehovah, and do I not feel a loathing for those revolting against you? With a complete hatred I do hate them. They have become to me real enemies."-Matt. 5:44; Amos 5:15; Ps. 139:21, 22. 
 

i think how number problem of 144000 in the year 1935 give reason to WT leaders of those days to make solution on issue and found verses in bible to confirm idea of heavenly class. Just  opinion that exist among people. If Jesus want rulers (kings and priests) they can do that job living on Earth too. Must not go to heaven. To rule " above, on, upon" the earth. Rulers must not be 500 km in earth orbit be able acting as kings. They can do the same job walking in midst of their subjects. But real relation between 144000 and people must be better and higher than king-subject relationship. But not like in old Israel time, that people must working for kings and their courtiers. :))))))))  give them food, gold, sons and daughters, ahahhaha. You never know, people are perishable goods, especially when they have money and power over  other human. 
Why would God need them in the heaven? They can do the same job on earth too. Jesus as man show how this is possible. He was the ruler, king and priest - walking with his feet on earth, on dust and water. And people liked him :)) 

Apologize if i am little boring in responding to your comments, but as you know already - "When words are many, transgression is not lacking"
I would like to point to one problem that arise in JW Organizational perception and perception from JW member. If JW member want to be true Jesus follower than he need, must to reject "worldly perspective" in purpose to be more close to Jesus personality and imitating his faith and to show "fruits of spirit", and to dress on "new personality". Purpose is in that true Jesus disciple can be different (in positive way) from people who do not want or wish or are not familiar with "godly personality". That is possible as you already wrote with JHVH spirit. 
So, you are confusing yourself and us who reading your thoughts with opposite standpoint, again, - "your worldly perspective" how it is need to deal with people who are lazy or have other kind of problems in JW church AND with your suggestion, request that all true JW member, including yourself, have to show "JHVH spirit".  But is it good, possible to mix "worldly perspective with JHVH spirit" and in the finals be satisfied in own eye, and in eye of other christians how our position before god is very well?   
If you think about JW people expectation, here is good to say how all people have some rational and irrational "expectation" about congregation and people inside  and WT organization at all, and on Bible interpretations about present and future promises that was made by GB. :))))
Here i would like to say, how is not Natural that some people supporting other people who are health and able to work with own hands and earn money for daily bread. So this WT organizational arrangement (Bethel, missionary, pioneers, some traveling elders) where some people are in position to live on other people's expense is not normal. It is like in Catholic church against which WT talking a lot, but shows similar illness in this matter.
Have a good evening  

SS:
I am afraid you are correct about that ... so I have decided to write the Russian Embassy in Washington DC ... and the Governing Body in Warwick, New York, asking BOTH for English Language Transcripts, with a link to this thread for context, and see who, if anybody responds.  I am also going to enclose a check for twenty dollars, each ... and ALSO see who does and does not cash the checks.
It will probably be Monday next when I get to it.
I will post the results, if any, here.
As a precaution, I will also try to find some SPF 5 Million sun tan lotion.
 

I think you may have read into what Alessandro posted. I don't see where Alessandro said God would off them because of modern doctrines. What I saw and agree with is the responsibility of a Christian to warn/discuss issues with those around them who may have been mislead. If those folks are so narrow minded to not listen and see things from a different perspective, mind you no one said accept the opposing position, then we have done what we are supposed to do. For someone to adopt an opposing position, one must first accept discussion. 

I completely agree

No, as a Christian I have an obligation to warn everyone when they are being misled. Even if it means losing my friends, their blood isn't on my hands,  I warned them all as much as I could. 
Paul said the same regarding a group of people he was preaching to. 

yes you would. I am basically an apostate to them because I don't believe it. 

Children wail because they NEED something ... food, shelter, being made clean, security, comfort ... always being told the truth ... etc.
As adults, it is our JOB to meet the needs of our children, and to teach them what is important, and what is drivel.
If we are not meeting a child's needs ... or even if we are adults not meeting the needs of OTHER adults ....  their REAL needs ... not agenda driven policy requirements, and 85% DRIVEL .... how DARE we refer to ourselves as "Ministers"
The proper word is "Overlords".

When thinking about Russia, and the continuous chain of court cases that show our abandonment of basic decency, kindness, compassion and ... Justice .... for money ....
FOR MONEY!
...remember that Jehovah once used the Babylonian armies to chastise HIS OWN PEOPLE UNTO DEATH !
... for similar things.
However, we have the institutional advantage through years of training ...
The Incredibility Gap is equally matched ... by our Gullibility Fill.
.
 

In every court case in this Century, the Society has created an INCREDIBLE "Credibility Gap" ( ... an Incredibility Gap?), and have been found, as even a cursory reading of transcripts has shown, to be liars, (Australian ARC child abuse hearings) duplicitous, (California court cases) and actually working AGAINST the sane principles of Justice
... FOR MONEY!
My original post, quoted here was SIX MONTHS AGO, TO THE DAY ....and how much explanation did the Brotherhood get from the Society for $80 MILLION DOLLARS, and perhaps 20 MILLION hours of letter writing since then?
The 2017 Annual Meeting was somewhere around 4-1/2 HOURS.
How much was said about our being banned from a major portion of the planet's surface?
Was it enough for YOU?
 
Why should ANYBODY in their right mind ... trust us?
.
 

I am looking for a REAL TRANSCRIPT ... not a summary. 
..every word spoken, literally translated by COMPETENT translators.
... all else is hearsay and fluff .... which a "Thessalonian" would swallow, but a "Berean" would not.
Like a noble "Berean", our standards of PROOF should be higher,

As you take a look arcoss these happy Russian, Finnish and other Jehovah's Witnesses, enjoying what they do ....  remember ( if you ever knew) that in 2010 the WTB&TS came out with a super-secret Elders Handbook that governed every aspect of their Congregational Judicial Liability to censure and punishment ... that the rank and file Witnesses  were not allowed to read, and if copied  by a non-elder, had to be WATCHED to make sure they did not read it.
At the same time, of course... the Congregation Elders were running a "court system" parallel to the Finnish court system, and the Finnish Government did not like subversion of their national sovereignty, and could not allow "two court systems". 
The Muslim immigrants which had overrun their country insisted that they be governed by Sharia Law instead of Finnish Law, which started the whole clamp down.
Several years later, if memory serves, at which time, the 2010 supposedly TOP SECRET elders handbook was all over the Internet for anybody to download, but MOST of the Brotherhood was not even aware of it's existence, and still are not seven years later ... TODAY .... which book was NEVER mentioned in the meetings.
Because they were not even aware it existed of course they never got a copy of THEIR "Law Book". ( ! )
To all Jehovah's Witnesses It is a tightly controlled Elders "Eyes Only" book.
The Finnish Government found out about the book, and the WTB&TS gave them TWO copies ... one to the Finnish Minister of Justice, and the other to the Finnish Minister of Education, which again if memory serves , one or both,  or both are women.
Meanwhile, this same book is still "EYES ONLY" classified, FOR JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES and the instructions were THAT IT BE SECRET to the extent that ELDERS WERE TO KEEP IT LOCKED UP AT HOME ... do not leave it on a desk at home, WHERE A SISTER MIGHT READ IT.
This "running movie" started seven years ago, and I am posting this from memory, so please, look it up yourself on the Internet to correct or fill in the blanks.. This sad story is available in great detail if you want to know about it ... and are willing to do the work.
As you take a look across these happy people in Finland, enjoying what they do ....remember the old saying "Ignorance is Bliss"
That old "proverb" was not intended to be an orgasmic goal.
.

Misled? What specifics do you have in mind?
 

"If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things.... all evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years... as a young person you will never fulfill any career that this system offers.
If you are in high school and thinking about a college education, it means at least four, perhaps even six or eight more years to graduate into a specialized career. But where will this system of things be by that time? It will be well on the way toward its finish, if not actually gone"!
Awake! issue of May 22, 1969 on page 15, published by WT

"Could Someone Be Disfellowshipped For Not Believing In...?"
My answer on this will be in indirect way. And that would give you new perspective on WT mentality. Elders are nothing else but product of Corporation. And they, in general, acting in that manner. 
This topic, the question is certainly interesting. I will tell you personally experience with two elders. After they told me how they not believes in anything that WT teaches,  I have asked both of them, the same questions. And I got the same answers. 
My first question was: If they does not believe everything from the  WT publications, how is possible that they, from the podium, teaching others what they personally does not believe?Second question was: Do you have a peaceful conscience, because you are telling others how they need to believe  that what you, in fact, not believes?
They answered me; " I say that's so in the literature (that is stated in magazine, study article) and I'm not talking about my personal beliefs."
My final question was;  Why don't you act like JW kids at school, on biology class, when it comes to evolution theory and the emergence of life. JW children say, give answer in class to all students and professors ; "School book say that human came in life by evolution. But i don't believe in that. I believe how god created humans."  Why you not doing the same as that brave JW children? To say from podium, or while sitting in auditorium giving comment; "WT  book, magazine, publication say this/that.. but i don't believe in such teaching, i believe ...?" 
After that they stayed silence. 

Okay Tom. Let's test that.
At the end of 1968 this brother would have been studying the following Watchtower in the congregation:
*** w68 8/15 p. 494 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? ***
 
I encourage you to examine it for yourself as if you were this brother at that time, and then see if you can sustain your response. There are too many highlights to choose from, but the one I was referring to in particular was this one:
 
*** w68 8/15 pp. 500-501 par. 35 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975? ***
This is not the time to be toying with the words of Jesus that “concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matt. 24:36) To the contrary, it is a time when one should be keenly aware that the end of this system of things is rapidly coming to its violent end.
 
The entire article was 37 paragraphs of building anticipation for 1975.
Please bear in mind that this was not "an opinion piece". This was a study article which all were expected to learn from and apply. So to say in this assembly video that this brother felt forewarned by what he had learned at the meetings is .... ?
Ah, now you may get picky and say that this was a few years before 1975 and maybe the fervor in print had cooled off by then. In that case please show me the mitigating texts that this brother was supposed to have drawn from. In fact the KM was praising those who sold houses and left jobs right up to the year itself. And this brother says "some even went so far as to sell homes and give up jobs ...". Hmmmm.
I know an elder who cuts out significant soundbites from study articles and sticks it on his wall as a reminder of "current truth". They will stay there for as long as it takes unless that truth is changed. So if this brother in the video had treated the Watchtower as seriously (and most did), then he would not have been "ignoring prevailing opinion at the time" as you suggest, but rather he would have been ignoring food from the FDS.
If you don't care to look up the article and other relevant material in print at the time then I would be happy to supply more quotations. But I imagine that will suffice to at least have you reconsider your assertion that what I wrote "is absolutely incorrect".
 
 
 
 
 
 
I personally
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Indeed, and I think I've acknowledged that.
 
OK. But now he's saying how he would apply the letter of the law, rather than what's possible according to the laws and guidelines.
I could give you references to the ks book, letters to BoE and CO's, notes/recordings from elder school, all of which you could take back to your elder and ask him about.
I won't do it of course. I do not have any motivation to convince you that would prompt me to cross that line. And I suspect even if you saw the material with your own eyes you would simply say it was all hypothetical. But that would be to miss the point that measures are in place to enforce belief in this, or any other doctrine, if in someone's opinion the circumstances warrant it.
 
And I know plenty of other people who are known to have quietly voiced that they don't accept the teaching, and they remain in good standing. I also know others who have paid a price for voicing a difference. As your elder says "it depends". Now he probably means it depends on what other factors there are in the case of the person, but it also depends on the elders themselves. Especially if a particular type of CO gets involved they have the latitude to DF someone for not believing in any unique teaching of JWs.  
 
I agree that there is no scriptural basis for it.
 
Please don't get me started on this or the librarian will fork me off into another new topic. I'll just say in passing though that they are effectively putting up someone as a good example because he was ignoring what was in Watchtower print at the time in favor of what he understood from the Bible. When someone does that today guess what s/he gets labelled as.
Before you say it wasn't in print, have you never seen the quote "Now is not the time to be toying with Jesus' words about the day or the hour ..."?
 
 
There is a lot of truth to that. But what you may not be factoring in is that it takes two to tango. The "unrest" that results can very much depend on the listener rather than the speaker. You may have one congregation which is laid back enough to see this for what it is, and do nothing. But you may have another with some highly strung people who react very quickly to hearing anything that doesn't sound 100% "loyal" to them. And thus the wheels can be put in motion for some serious damage.