Srecko Sostar

One should always appreciate and believe in the honesty and integrity of other people. It is commendable that JW have faith that GB wants to be fair and honest. Other people outside the JW community need to be able to understand that JW members want to trust their leaders and consider them honest. It is a good quality in any interpersonal relationship that enables success.
I think the problem is in withdrawing the thesis that equates (human) perfection with infallibility. It's not quite the same.
The best examples of this are Adam and Eve. Perfect people, but that didn't save them from making a fatal mistake. 
Invoking imperfection, over and over again when something is said and done wrong, becomes meaningless because the state of "imperfection" becomes a tool to justify and excuse one's own inability to do something with the least bad consequences.
GB uses such a tool to justify his own misguided guidelines that they worked for in the name of God. Therein lies their guilt.
If they had said clearly and loudly that they have an opinion and belief about a doctrine that is such because it seems to them most accurate, then they could rightly invoke imperfection, so they were mistaken. But when they claim that doctrines are the only and unique truth because they come from God, then all subsequent wisdom, they later show, makes no sense.
 
 

It is with such things that GB juggles.
They claim how they are not inspired by spirit and they are not infallible but they are guided by the spirit, ............. so it is a guarantee that they can be given complete trust.
:))

No.  Paul did not say that  prophesy had ceased, and I'm talking about inspired prophesy.  @Patiently waiting for Truth is right, you are misleading a young one; one that should come out of the organization. (Matt 24:15,16; Rev 18:4-8)
"Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is [d]perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
"perfect" - meaning "complete", this will not happen until Jesus returns. Until the kingdom, prophesy, and  knowledge continue.
If you say that prophesy has ceased, then you may as well say that knowledge has ceased. 
Nowhere in the scriptures did the apostles say that prophesy would cease before all is "complete".  
 
 
 
 
 
 

The apostles were persecuted because they were true, obedient followers of the teachings of Jesus Christ, and not to the doctrine of men.  Why would you say it's meaningless?  All who choose to obey Jesus, will be persecuted, they must expect trials and persecution.  With exJWs, it is through disfellowshipping, loss of family, and deemed as spiritually dead.   Luke 12:53; Matt 5:43-45; 2 Cor 4:7-10;James 1:2-4; John 16:2; Rev 13:15
If the GB are truly followers of Jesus Christ, how are they persecuted?  They control everyone and everything within in their power. They make sure to silence individuals who speak against them.   Those that are persecuted for rejecting THEM and their false doctrine, control no one. 
 
 

I know nothing about the Unitarian Church only a little from your posts that I may have read,  or about your "Biblical" Unitarianism.  I am asking "Somehow, you have decided you are a Preacher by perhaps your own labeling; or, did others give you that label?"  You are a man who loves labeling people, and beliefs.  So where did your label derive from?
 
 
 

This is completely irrelevant to me, regarding what is important to me given the comment made.
What kind/sort of Unitarian you are or to what denomination you belong or not belong, that is important only to you dear SM. 

Excellent observation!
SM  so strongly advocates a specific Christian Order, but is not prepared to act within the specific Order of the Unitarian Church or here within the Order of JW Church. Both churches are Christian churches.
 
 Are JWs in America back on the 'door to door' work now ?
Space Merchant replied to Patiently waiting for Truth's topic in Jehovah’s Witnesses's Topics
...I am a Biblical Unitarian Christian yes, however I am not of the Unitarian Church.  

Why your objection that others have the wrong mindset, when you yourself are advocating the wrong attitude about women and claiming that God has an unchangeable Order. Well there is no immutable. He revoked the Order from OT and placed another Order through NT. And change will continue to happen.

Why your objection that others have the wrong mindset, when you yourself are advocating the wrong attitude about women and claiming that God has an unchangeable Order. Well there is no immutable. He revoked the Order from OT and placed another Order through NT. And change will continue to happen.

On the one hand, God creates Adam and Eve who are not given the concept of patriarchy or the concept of the man (Adam) as the only one who has the last word in everything.
On the other hand, it later allows for a system of patriarchy and polygamy and slavery.
Then enters a phase in which it softens the laws of OT and creates a concept of equality within the Christian community in which it still relies on a slightly softer patriarchal relationship between man and woman.
And as a special new level, architecture emerges in which men and women become representatives of the government with functions that include / unite political and religious power (Kings and priests).
This approach is unique in that it allows women what they have never been allowed to do in either Judaism or Christianity. To rule over the people (the only OT exception, I think, is Deborah in the capacity of Judge) and to perform priestly service.
The activity of the Prophetess was also an exception.
But it is precisely these exceptions that speak of a God who has no problem with the concepts (out of known "Order") in which women are given to be in positions for which some zealous/stubborn men claim to be the only right given to them.

@Space Merchant  I think that the adult / mature thing for me to say here is that, you and I should agree to have different opinions about things.  As for you saying you do not have opinions, well once again we must differ here. 
My feeling about you is, that you are a 'cold hearted' Theologian.  What I mean by that is, you have vast knowledge of the scriptures but you seem to lack the faith and direction of a True Christian. 
Jehovah's Witnesses are the same. One difference with the JW's though, they are given direction by 8 men in America.  
I have no idea if you 'follow' any direction from any 'religious' humans, though it seems as if you are the one giving direction to others. 
I note you have a young follower here. So sad to see a young man worshipping you. He seems to think you are winning battles here  .  What you are actually doing is pretending that you are always right, and he is fooled by your words. He is young, he will learn. 
You and I cannot have a proper basic discussion because you have a totally different mindset to me. I look to the future with hope, but it's not hope for me, it's hope for other people.  YHWH will work through Yeshua, the Earth will be cleansed, those considered worthy will live on, and the dead will be resurrected. All of those things will bring praise to YHWH through Yeshua.  Those are things that God has allowed me to know in my heart.  
However I still believe that nearer the end of this old system of things, the True Anointed will be given more accurate knowledge through Holy Spirit, and true direction will be given to those seeking to serve YHWH properly.
Ten (earthly) men clinging to the the robe of a (spiritual) Jew.  The True Anointed will become more apparent to real Christians. 

Yes, Deborah was a judge over Israel.  The anointed, both male and female are the priesthood of “Israel”.  They are the “saints” that Paul spoke of here:
“Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases?” 1 Cor 6:2
Now, there is no segregation between what “saints” will judge the world.  Are they men, or women, or both?  It is very apt that God chose Deborah as a judge, so that keen, spiritual individuals can realize that women play a significant role in God’s priesthood – “ministers” yes, but also as prophets and teachers and judges. (Eph 2:20-22)
So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.”  Acts 20:34,35
Only men, have drawn the line on a woman’s role in God’s priesthood; so far as transforming them into men through Wt's pictorial of what "heaven" and the "144,000" will look like.  
Gal 3:28 (written by Paul) – “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”
The anointed are the spiritual "religious office", if that term must be used.  They have already been designated to care for God's sheep.  The foundation of this temple in Christ began with anointed, and continued to grow by faithful anointed being added.    (1 Pet 2:5,9; Rev 5:9,10)
Men, like yourself, have fabricated a different "body", built with uninspired men; which also has aided the development of the Wt.   As I have said, all anointed are inspired at their anointing, for a purpose.  THEY are the chosen, to serve all believers in Christ, and teach them God's laws. in Christ. (Mal 2:7; Heb 8:10)   Men, have built their authoritative power by eliminating God's choice, not only in anointed men; but also in anointed women.  That is where the elder body has become the "man of lawlessness".  2 Thess 2:1-4
 
 
 
 
 
 

This is completely irrelevant to me, regarding what is important to me given the comment made.
What kind/sort of Unitarian you are or to what denomination you belong or not belong, that is important only to you dear SM. 

Excellent observation!
SM  so strongly advocates a specific Christian Order, but is not prepared to act within the specific Order of the Unitarian Church or here within the Order of JW Church. Both churches are Christian churches.
 
 Are JWs in America back on the 'door to door' work now ?
Space Merchant replied to Patiently waiting for Truth's topic in Jehovah’s Witnesses's Topics
...I am a Biblical Unitarian Christian yes, however I am not of the Unitarian Church.  

Why your objection that others have the wrong mindset, when you yourself are advocating the wrong attitude about women and claiming that God has an unchangeable Order. Well there is no immutable. He revoked the Order from OT and placed another Order through NT. And change will continue to happen.

On the one hand, God creates Adam and Eve who are not given the concept of patriarchy or the concept of the man (Adam) as the only one who has the last word in everything.
On the other hand, it later allows for a system of patriarchy and polygamy and slavery.
Then enters a phase in which it softens the laws of OT and creates a concept of equality within the Christian community in which it still relies on a slightly softer patriarchal relationship between man and woman.
And as a special new level, architecture emerges in which men and women become representatives of the government with functions that include / unite political and religious power (Kings and priests).
This approach is unique in that it allows women what they have never been allowed to do in either Judaism or Christianity. To rule over the people (the only OT exception, I think, is Deborah in the capacity of Judge) and to perform priestly service.
The activity of the Prophetess was also an exception.
But it is precisely these exceptions that speak of a God who has no problem with the concepts (out of known "Order") in which women are given to be in positions for which some zealous/stubborn men claim to be the only right given to them.

Just so you know up front, I don't read all that you write, but certain things pop out such as the above.  
Two people can look at the same scene with two different perspectives.  Jesus’ perspective was heavenly, spiritual, inspired.  He was preparing a people to also be heavenly, spiritual, and inspired. The Pharisees rejected this spiritual perspective, and instead held onto and loved their corrupted element of rule over others.   The term “religious office” is elementary, based on today’s works in the world of men.  What was once the concept of seeing “religion” in the spiritual realm with blessings reaching humans on the created earth, has been corrupted to “fit” the desires of men, who assign each other with created label to hold created “offices”. 
These have nothing to do with the gifts of the Spirit. Men, like elders not anointed have robbed the concept of Christ’s gifts given to his spiritual anointed body, and changed them to fit their earthly needs, to fit themselves, and an organization.  (Eph 4:4-16)   They are applying what they chose from the teachings of Jesus and the apostles, to help run their debased organization. “The whole world lies in the power of the wicked one”, but men use this power to create a demanding “religion” of authority over others.  The apostles did not teach “organization” according to the elementary concepts of men. They were moved by the Holy Spirit to teach and to be guided by it, but never to manipulate their spiritual understanding, by lording it over others.  If there were leaders, they were leaders in spiritual knowledge.  Anyone who desires to know the truth, would value another’s truthful knowledge. 
“Rulership” under Jesus Christ is unfathomable in this world of hate and desire to control others. This ruler is the enemy of Christ, so why would Christ condone established religion in the rulers’ realm? (John 8:36)  His “rule” is based on love.  There would be no room for abuse, lies, failed doctrine, victims suffering at the hands of evil rulers, or the concept that religion must be built with money and riches of all sorts. (Matt 19:21)
What we see developed by men and their preferable religious beliefs, is called centralized religious authority.  Jesus dissolved the earthly, and set up the spiritual. (John 2:19-22)  But men have either rejected it, or chose what they like from his teachings, to create their elemental concept of centralized religion.
I meet with anointed and those not anointed. We understand that love is not regulated by men, and that there is no power over us except that of the Father and Jesus Christ.  We treat each other equally, men and women together.   But we also realize that among us are those who have been blessed with spiritual insight, those who have received valuable knowledge through the inspiration of Holy Spirit.  And more than one, happen to be women.  We listen to their understanding; yet, we listen also to each other, learning from our individual experiences, and all grow together in spirit.  We take note of the anointed gifts Jesus has given certain individuals, but we do not kowtow to the person, simply because of the gift.   
For a man who does not claim to be joined to one established, concrete religion, but uses the term “religious office”, tells me you are under the influence of the world of established religion.  Somehow, you have decided you are a Preacher by perhaps your own labeling; or, did others give you that label?  But how could they, if you are not part of an earthly organized church?  Nonetheless, dear SM, your concept of religion under Jesus Christ, is not according to the spirit of God, but of the world.  The two, cannot be mixed.
Luke 22:24-27; John 4:21-24; 1 Cor 2:12; 1:26-31; Gal 4:3; Col 3:2;Phil 3:17-19
 
Did the apostles really rule over the earthly concept of organization?  Not according to Paul:
Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. 7 But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But, as it is written,
“What no eye has seen, nor ear heard,
    nor the heart of man imagined,
what God has prepared for those who love him”—
10 these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. 16 “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.  1 Cor 2
If a woman is a teacher or an inspired prophet from God, who are you to judge prematurely, especially since your mind is on "earthly things"?  You will know them by their "fruits".  Matt 7:15-20
 
 
 
 

144000 = Kings = political/administrative service/position........both, male and female
144000 = Priests = spiritual/religious service/position.........both, male and female
Priest = https://www.dictionary.com/browse/priest
noun a person whose office it is to perform religious rites, and especially to make sacrificial offerings. (in Christian use) a person ordained to the sacerdotal or pastoral office; a member of the clergy; minister. (in hierarchical churches) a member of the clergy of the order next below that of bishop, authorized to carry out the Christian ministry. a minister of any religion. verb (used with object) to ordain as a priest.   Did Chloe belong to 144,000? Did some other women in the first century and later belong to 144,000? If so, then they had the same type of calling as the male members. Same type of call. Same kind of service. The same amount of pay, so to speak.      

Thank you for your reply. And it seems more natural and accurate to me that JWs consider themselves followers and disciples of Christ. I think that's what other Christian denominations conclude about themselves too.

….. 
 

So doesn’t God support gender equality when He promises "144,000" that they are all kings and priests regardless of gender? What they will be in heaven (or on earth) with Christ? Male, female or both or neither?

Do you support the idea that all JW members are “uninspired prophets” in any context of the meaning of that word? And would a more modern name ("Jehovah's Prophets") suit them better today in this present modern era, than the one given to them by Rutherford in the past?

It amazes me that Rutherford was not familiar with this precise and common knowledge about terminology, because the new name, from 1931 onwards, would have sounded better like "Jehovah's Prophets". But when you explain to us the difference between an “inspired” and an “uninspired” prophet then I see where Rutherford’s place is.  
Yes, I am aware of this flip-flop about using this particular term i WTJWorg publications.
Agree  , they are “Normal Prophets” with flip-flop doctrines and understanding with variable knowledge of unimportant things.
So according to your logic, it is quite normal that "uninspired prophets" have full freedom and permission to prophesy whatever seems right to them, even if it was complete nonsense for those "uninspired prophets" who later reject previous "prophecies" or adapt it to new level of knowledge.
If all “normal prophets” are equal, then most JWs have acquired the same spiritual level because of which there is no need for elders to act as teachers and pastors. However, you do not acknowledge that a woman can be on the same spiritual level as a man, but that only a man is in the position of a shepherd.
You have the wrong source of information about this thing.
 

It amazes me that Rutherford was not familiar with this precise and common knowledge about terminology, because the new name, from 1931 onwards, would have sounded better like "Jehovah's Prophets". But when you explain to us the difference between an “inspired” and an “uninspired” prophet then I see where Rutherford’s place is.  
Yes, I am aware of this flip-flop about using this particular term i WTJWorg publications.
Agree  , they are “Normal Prophets” with flip-flop doctrines and understanding with variable knowledge of unimportant things.
So according to your logic, it is quite normal that "uninspired prophets" have full freedom and permission to prophesy whatever seems right to them, even if it was complete nonsense for those "uninspired prophets" who later reject previous "prophecies" or adapt it to new level of knowledge.
If all “normal prophets” are equal, then most JWs have acquired the same spiritual level because of which there is no need for elders to act as teachers and pastors. However, you do not acknowledge that a woman can be on the same spiritual level as a man, but that only a man is in the position of a shepherd.
You have the wrong source of information about this thing.
 

It was not my intention to insult, but I asked the SM a question regarding his thesis.