Space Merchant

@JW Insider There is a group, with many branches that all connect back to the Pope, Francis, of the Vatican. He's been going on a conquest for a while now to gather religious leaders as well as their followers to join his cause in seeking peace and unity. For since he began his travels, he had recruited many religious leaders, as well as politicians and people of the countries that he has visited, one namely being the people of Portugal with the 2 girls who were said to have seen the ghost of Mary (info), clearly we know who is really at work here. He had a desire to take this unity to another level, around 2016 in Washington DC, he held an event, backed by those who sent him out, called Together 2016, which is bigger than its Kairos, Pulse,etc. Movement branches because it included the Pope as a main focus.

This is an example of their promo back in 2016:

Those in connection with the event are listed by name here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Together_2016

As you can see, the drawing in of those not well adapt to what the Bible teaches, are the very ones to be drawn in, for the mainstream Christians love this kind of stuff, they attack the Pope, but fall on their own sword when they join these events because it makes them, as they say, united, which will result on an increase on such ones like this to be very negative towards the minority Christians who are clearly against the Pope and anything he has connection to regarding faith and politics.

A lot of people, even JW opponents love to talk about NGOs, not realizing there is thousands of NGOs out there and there is only a FEW out of said thousands that are both sponsored and meet the necessary requirements to take part in UN decisions and the like, having a role in such. This was the case with the NGO known as Elijah Interfaith, an NGO backed and takes part in UN affairs as well as politics and it is the only religious NGO that is sponsored that stands out and actually could make strong decisions within the United Nations. Moreover, it was evident as to what is to come due to what has been talked about from the early 2000s to the day Pope Francis, in 2015, had addressed in 2015 prior to the Together 2016 event: http://time.com/4049905/pope-francis-us-visit-united-nations-speech-transcript/

Another factor is the role situation with the banning and harassment of JWs in Russia, which came at a time whereas a historic event taken place when the Pope met the leader of the RoC, later on, the leader of the RoC going on a so called Spiritual Journey and eventually with the aid of political NGOs in France and others, resulted in the ban of JWs, which in turn increased more power to the RoC, but it does not stop there, for the RoC's hand even covers those who is against clearly against it.

Now we have those who are in connection with what the Pope is doing, The Kairos Movement, also referred to as the Kairos Conference. They seek to united all faiths and at the same time the falsehood of the mainstream is there. Such an event contact speakers like Kenneth Copeland, Francis Chen, and many, many more.

 

There was also the whole situation with the October 2017 Reformation, blustering the conquest for unity getting a whole bunch of Methodist, Protestants and several others into the fold.

The goal for them is very simple, they already teach mainstream Christianity and they have already drawn in such ones, even the non-religious. These are also the same people who speak falsehood and not of what the bible teaches and should you or anyone else say otherwise, they will do what is needed to paint you as an enemy or a blasphemer, the very reason why when those of a Christian minorities does something bad, be it a crime, abuse, stealing, etc they get more flack compared to those who are in the mainstream for the mainstream not only teach a falsehood, but they stick together with their group very strongly. The ironic thing is, even those who are not for the Pope, they still apply and accept what his underlings profess, such as Chen and Copeland, or any propriety or charismatic preacher out there.

Such people are indeed the enemy, for as they have alluded to in the past, if you are not with them, you are against them, for if you are not part of the conquest for peace and unity they are in pursuit of and still are, you are pretty much an enemy to them, or false.

 

Together 2018 will be held in Texas, it will be hosted by this man as seen in these pictures, Nick Hall (his web contains his bio):

 

 

Where in Texas? Specifically Texas Motor Speedway on October 20-21 of 2018.

To quote the information of where this is cited:

Today, evangelism movement PULSE announced plans for the next Together event to be held Oct. 20-21, 2018 at Texas Motor Speedway, a venue in Fort Worth, Texas that can hold more than half a million people. The event will feature an all-star lineup of speakers, pastors, artists and leaders from various backgrounds with the aim to promote unity and lift up the name of Jesus. “In an age defined by division that often labels us as those who are for and against politics, issues and each other—Jesus invites all of us to move closer,” said Nick Hall, PULSE founder and evangelist. “He alone offers the hope and leadership we desperately need and Together is about calling people from all backgrounds to move closer to Jesus and the world around us.”

The list goes on and this is just the surface. Mainstream Christians are easily subdued by these problematic events like people being swooned by the music a DJ is playing not realizing the music being played has brief remarks to negative and or inappropriate things, for a man who listens will realize the music is bad and just leave the scene, but one who does not remains. They like what they see, they like what they hear and they accept it regardless, not realizing the devil is in the details.

It is very sad to see that many people are blind and have not heard the truth, and it is very tragic and mind-boggling to see those who know the truth and remain ignorant of what the truth is, but it would seem on this day an age the truth is being made known and even the non-religious will stand up to the mainstream and their Trinitarian doctrine, in addition to those who adhere to the bible and the early Christian church, these ones speak against the errors of the mainstream as well.

The irony of it all also the same people who speak ill of JWs and express a sheer hatred for them, are the very same ones who go to these events. Such ones are hypocrites.

 

That being said, there is more information out there, I tend to be brief with it because it is that much.

@Jesus.defender I expected that. Id you have nothing to add to this discussion regarding 1 John 4:1, why respond at all? Like a child you are lost, you do not know the bible well as you think and what God's purpose and will entails. Then again, those of the mainstream tend to lose themselves to false teachers, very tragic.

 

Other than that there is a REAL enemy who is deemed a threat to me, you, despite your Trinitarian blindness, and even JWs. The fact you do not know this threat, you'll end up like those in Washington DC a while back, for such an enemy will rear its ugly head in Texas during the Fall. This threat that consist of the nations, will indeed disappear when the time comes.

8 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Ok, thank you for that.

You are right. I AM a wicked, dirty, rotten, filthy sinner just like you.

God bless you.

He called you such because you are speaking of slander, you incite Christian Infighting (a big problem with the West), you bring forth a doctrine that it's even biblical, you use the information from a Wiccan to spread interfaith hate, you are an advocate of breaking God's Laws which is the case with the mainstream, let alone adhering to false ones, and the list goes on. 

We are all indeed sinners, but there is a clear line between those who know they are imperfect vs. those who are imperfect, but sin openly and being ignorant of it.

Other than that, a man who wants others to break God's Law, a man who incite religious infighting, a man who's Spirit has been tested (1 John 4:1) cannot bless anyone. You fit the bill.

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Ignore the word "trinity". its not important.

You are the first of few who say this, this is interesting, either you are learning or you are totally unaware.

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

God is everlasting, eternal, without beginning or end. God is unchanging, infinite,  omnipresence, omniscient , self-existent, self-sufficient, immaterial and omnipotent

Indeed, God is the only God, the only true one, and this only God is the Father, according to His testimony, the testimony of Jesus, as well as the testimony of Peter, Paul, and John, the Son of Zechariah and Elizabeth, as well as a list of others.

There is no question that HE, is the only God, the only one, the very one that all young Jews profess as a child and read the Old Testament about, this includes Jesus.

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

The Bible says that God the father is God.

Very true, however your other posts tend to be very contradicting to this response.

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

The Bible says that Jesus is God. John 8:58, John 1:1, John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8, Isaiah 44:6 ( crossreference  Revelation 1:17 )?

• John 8:58 - This verse does not prove Jesus is God for if you recognize what the sons of the Devil were doing verses before and even chapters in what they wanted to do to Jesus. Moreover, I AM (ego eimi) does not prove anything, for not only it is a common Greek saying, Jesus was only making acknowledgement that he pre-existed before Abraham, no mention of him being El Shaddai, Yahweh/Jehovah. This has already been covered here

 

• John 1:1 - This verse speaks of the Genesis Act of Creation, hence verses 3-6 and the mention John the Baptist several verses onward. The Word if from God because it is His spoken Word, the Word became flesh because Jesus was the one who became a man, the Word is God because we clearly see that God himself had said the following about the coming prophet in Deuteronomy 18:18, also the very one mentioned in Isaiah (also scroll of Isaiah as seen in Luke 4). God had said that he will raise up for them a prophet, one that is like their brothers (Jews). he continues to say that He  will put His words in his mouth, and this prophet will speak to them all that He will command of this prophet. Therefore we know the Word is God because the Word is of God, Jesus, who is the prophet, is the Word because he speaks God's Word, and from the very beginning the Word, that originated from God spoke everything into existence. Further evidence we also have is the Tanakh/Old Testament (they focused specifically on the Torah) of which the Samartians strictly follow, for they lived apart from the Jews and their area was Mount Gerizim, for they awaited this Prophet who speaks God's Word, and we see this unfold in John chapter 4 when Jesus spoke with the Samaritan Woman at the Well of Jacob, despite how Samaritans and Jews view each other, but for Jesus, he ha the utmost respect for the Samaritans and didn't go bashing their views, as you are doing, for Jesus set an example for us to follow. It was here that Jesus revealed himself to be the Messiah, the one sent by God, and clearly we see the reaction of the woman, and eventually the Samaritan people. God is the Word, the Word is of God.

 

• John 20:28 - Quoting from my article, the facts that come straight from the very pages of the scriptures in the Bible shows us that Thomas was confessing what Jesus had taught him - to see Jesus is to see the Father (John 14:10-11; 12:44-45). That human flesh named Jesus declares the Father (John 1:18). In fact, the entire point of the Gospel of John is to illustrate how the man Jesus made God the Father known. Since there is only one God, Thomas was necessarily referring to Jesus Christ's God when he said, "my God." When all the evidence is put before us, there is simply no doubt that Thomas was affirming Jesus' earlier teaching to him, that to see and believe in Jesus was to see and believe in the Father, the God of Jesus, the God of Thomas (20:17). Jesus himself tells us in this Gospel that he declared/explained the Father in terms of everything he said and did. John tells us the same thing - Jesus came so that we might know the Father, the true God (1 John 5:20). He is the Way to the Father and through Him we know the Father. Jesus explained that they saw the Father when they saw Jesus because the Father abiding in him did the works (14:9-10). How much more then was the Father abiding in that dead body which had the Father had risen from the dead by the power of His Holy Spirit which proceeds from THE FATHER and which Jesus breathed into his disciples (see 20:21-22). Since seeing Jesus meant seeing the Father, Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God. Thomas is confessing what the entire Gospel of John is about. Jesus made the Father known to the people of the world. The only begotten declares/explains the Father. For that reason, to see Jesus is to see the Father. To see the Lord Jesus is to see the Father, our God, and Jesus Christ's God. This can be found here

 

• Hebrews 1:8 - This verse speaks of Jesus' clear exaltation, after being brought back to life in spirit by God and made Lord. Moreover, Hebrews 1:8 is a quotation of Psalm 45:6. The above translation of Hebrews 1:8 is another example of Trinitarian bias expressed by the mainstream. For it is here that such ones like you try to claim that God the Father is addressing Jesus as "O God." This translation crudely violates the context for the sake of Trinitarian tradition. In addition, such ones make no acknowledgment of the quotation in order to push their doctrine, which is the case with you making a reference to this verse and not taking it into context. When we really take this verse into context, the truth can easily be seen and it should be evident to people that the weight of the evidence if taken into context is clearly against the Trinitarian translation. For the Trinitarian translation not only results in an absurd statement concerning the whole God's God thing, it results in an ancient Davidic King (Psalms 45) who lived long before Jesus being called "God." Trinitarians inconsistently translate ho theos at Hebrews 1:8-9 and the implications are that God has a God and God's God anoints God so that God will make God to be above God's peers. It's ridiculous on the face of it. Clearly that does not sound right at all. Another thing is you have not taken into context the writer of Hebrews also. That being said it is also good to address what God called all his children as seen in Psalms 82:6 (verse 1 is a reference), and it being referenced yet again in 1 Corinthians 8:5 and as to what Jesus had said in John 10:34, 35.

 

• Isaiah 44:6 - The scriptures shows that "His Redeemer" is a reference to Israel's Redeemer, you, Deserter, as a Trinitarian, show a total disregard to contextual facts. For it is known that the passage here is referring to Israel's redeemer who is Yahweh of Hosts their God. The irony here is you believe in 3 Gods, when the testimony of God (Book of Joel) himself in another verse says otherwise

 

• Revelations 1:17 - The scriptures shows that the risen Jesus is the First and the Last because he, God's Word, is where the new creation of God begins, which is as clear as day when taking into account the Revelations of John. An even bigger problem that is posed to you Trinitarians is that your claim will be demanded an answer, but such ones like you will not say a word. At Revelation 1:1, we read that God gave this Revelation to Jesus and he communicated this Revelation to John through his angel, which leads to who, in question, then communicated with John? It is abundantly  clear that these title(s) refer to creation and Jesus is the Beginning of the new creation since he is the Firstborn out of the Dead (The first of the Firstfruits). Everything begins and ends with the Father's Word. Now, the Genesis act of creation was accomplished by means of His, God's, spoken Word and that is why we find He is the first and the last in the book of Isaiah. He is where the Genesis act of creation began and since He will judge the world through a man He has appointed, He is where it will also end. God the Father has created by means of His spoken Word and judges the world through His word at the end of the ages. God the Father will judge the world through him (Acts 17:31) and God the Father creates all things anew in him (Colossians 1:16-18; Revelation 21). God the Father now creates all things through the risen Christ, His Word become flesh. The new creation begins and ends at the Father's Word: the risen man, Jesus, who has been made Lord, who has been exalted.

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

The Bible says that the Holy Spirit is God. Acts 5:3,4. Romans 8:11

Nowhere in Acts 5:3, 4 does it say by your claim that: The Holy Spirit is God -false

We clearly see what it says in the verse:

• (3) But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? (4) While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to man but to God.”

Nowhere in Romans 8:11 does it say, by your claim that the Holy Spirit is God, utterly false, for we can see the verse:

• If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

The funny thing is, you are using verses from a man who has profess the foremost commandment, that alone speaks against the Trinity belief, moreover, this man, Paul, has affirmed the Law, that puts you in error, 100%.

What proves more fatal is the cross-references also, for that alone defeats your doctrine, Deserter.

But what, it would seem you have shot yourself on the foot with this response because previously, you had stated: The Bible says that God the father is God. You can't have 3 Gods if there is only 1, but it would seem you religiously worship 3 being in denial by also stating there is 1, that is being hypocritical to your own belief.

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

The Bible also says there is ONE God. DEUTERONOMY 6:4, DEUTERONOMY 4:35,39, DEUTERONOMY 32:39, 2 SAMUEL 7:22, 1 KINGS 8:60, 2 KINGS 5:15 , 2 KINGS 19:15,  NEHEMIAH 9:6,  PSALM 18:31 ( Which also states Jesus is God ),  PSALM 86:1, ISAIAH 37:16,20, ISAIAH 43:10,11, ISAIAH 44:6,8, ISAIAH 45:21, ISAIAH 46:9, HOSEA 13:4, MARK 12:29-34, ROMANS 3:30, 1 CORINTHIANS 8:4-6, 1 TIMOTHY 2:5.

Oh the irony, you mentioned a verse that shattered your own doctrine, the very law that speaks of the Father being the only God, a law of which Jesus himself had quoted. Not to mention you also stated a verse that 100% disqualifies Jesus as being God for he acts as an in-between for God and a group of men to man kind, technically, you have defeated yourself with this response, and to add more fuel to the fire, for a man who claims to be a Jesus Defender, you have no idea of what Law I am speaking of, of which Jesus professed even as a child, you also mentioned a verse of which Paul made an affirmation of the Law,  you have no idea of what Jesus is regarding being an in between of 2 parties, you have no idea of what God's Law actually is that further provides a major blow to your own doctrine.

Either you are learning, or you are inflecting yourself, wounding yourself, in this sense, figuratively, religous seppuku (??).

Indeed, the only True God is the Father and no one else, not even this so called Holy Spirit Person, nor is it Jesus, for God is the only Father, in addition to that, even Jesus recognize the Father as God several times in the New Testament.

Perhaps next time, read the verse first and maybe make such a comment. Also as for Psalms 18:31 does not state Jesus is God. Anyone with a brain and some sense can read and see that this verse is regarding God the Father:

• For who is God, but the LORD [YHWH]? And who is a rock, except our God?—

If you want to take it a step further, even in Hebrew, it further proves the one being mentioned is indeed the Father:

• ????? ???? ????????? ????????????? ??????? ?????? ?????? ????????? ????????????

The funny thing the ALL CAPS is a dead giveaway too.

Moreover, we have the cross-references for this verse that solidifies this simply truth: Psalms 86:8, Isaiah 45:5, Deuteronomy. 32:31, 1 Samuel 2:2, and 2 Samuel 22:32-43.

Then again acknowledging the Father to be God, just as Paul and Jesus had, as did others, is very close, but no cigar because you are in total defense of a heresy you know to be false.

Open your eyes, Deserter.

It is people like you who is the very result of those, unaware, make fun of the bible:

Such cannot be allowed to pass, therefore the truth has to be known, it MUST be known.

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Therefore, somehow, these three entities constitute the one, eternal, everlasting God.

Yet you contradict yourself in your several of your responses.

4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

We are not told HOW God is God, that is not important. God just tells us that's the way it is.

Yet when he speaks by means of His Word, you ignore it. Basic reading comprehension and biblical study by means of understanding and research further proves that the only God is the Father.

As for the other comment, Jehovah's Witnesses are not like other Christians, they are Restorationist Christians who are Non-Trinitarian, on the other side of the spectrum, for the Christians of this day and age are 100% mainstream (New Agers included) and do not mind shedding the blood of other Christians in cold bloodied brutality in order to protect their nation, the Christians tossed into the well is an example, and I believe I made mention to such regarding the White Hats of which the US mainstream Christians support, in addition, they like to use uninspired passages with the inspired to push their belief on others, unfortunately for you many, MANY people wised up, but for you, you accept and choose to be blind and continue to dwell in darkness, tripping over yourself and shambling in the dark like a mad man (like Bob the Builder, James White, Jay Smith, David Wood, etc.)

 

That being said, you have not proven anything in this regard, you have not proven that Jesus is God or that of the Spirit yet you claim the one God to be the Father, for it is true, the only God is the Father, according to the testimony of others.

Biblical Hermeneutics and the study and understanding of one's Christology will and always prevail over false truths and false teachers

 

As for your foolish claim

Quote

LOL. You, sir are an idiot.

forged? added? Right, WHEN and by WHOM? 

DONT copy and paste, i know you hate that, and dont refer people to a website.

Come on, WHEN and WHO?

funny how not even a dozen verses in the Bible can convince you. Your response? Oh, those passages are forged or added.

And you are stupid to think that the EARLIER a document is, that automatically makes it TRUE.

you are a ridiculous and sad person.

The only foolish man that is here, is you, for if I was foolish, I would not be that knowledgeable of the scriptures and I would be ignorant of truth, but your silly insult is nothing more than a leaf in the breeze, nothing more, Deserter.

The fact that you are unaware of the forgeries shows, I would like to see you try and defend 1 John 5:7, or that of the Acts 8:37, John 8:1-11, Mark 16:9-20 and a list of other verses. Try as you may - you will fail.

I don't hate copy and paste, but the constant back to back copy and paste posts only shows you yield upon hat man has taught you, and not of God.

And no you have no convinced me, you claim Jesus is God when Jesus himself professed a law and he is an in-between for God and men, you claim the Holy Spirit is God, let alone a person, yet you fail to make the claim, and this Godhood claim when no one knows the day or the hour but God himself, in addition, you claim God became flesh when the Old Testament and the words of Job says otherwise. You cannot even convince a child with such heresy, how then will you teach to the nation? For such ones who want to know truth will not adhere to the nonsense that you are teaching, that is why your doctrine, the Trinity, is killing your own faith base when Christianity of the mainstream is on a rapid decline, to the point that even Islam is surpassing you, mind you, this excludes Christian minorities that have nothing to do with the mainstream. For you are declining in China, the UK, the US, the list goes on, for people are tired of your heresy and falsehood when they themselves look at what the bible really says.

I only made a mention to several uninspired text nowhere did I state ALL verses are forged, you are a fool to think of such because I made mention to this to everyone here before you crawled out of the crevice of which you came. There is well over a dozen verses that have been forged, FACT, there has been verses that has been changed, FACT, there has been verses that have been made up by man, FACT, and because of this people tend to stick to the oldest source, FACT. A Fact that has been proven here, is you are utterly unaware of this source of which the bible based upon and no we are not talking about God's Word, we are talking about something physical before the Bible itself came to be.

Example, Trinitarians believe that Jesus saved an Adulterous Woman, based off the passages as seen in John 8:1-11 (if you want to take is a step further John 7:53-8:11), however, this verses are not in the original source, they never were in there to begin with, someone very later on added these verses to make a complete continuation of chapter 8. For there is a reason as to why a majority of bibles have omitted Pericope Adulterae. You have a problem if you accept this to be true, yet cannot defend it, the same goes for the other verses in question, everyone knows about 1 John 5:7 and 1 Timothy 3:16 and a number of other things, especially as to the inspired passages itself of which Trinitarians will twist in their favor, example, John 10:30, John 8:58 to name a few.

NOTE: The Greek manuscripts show fairly clear evidence that John 7:53—8:11 was not originally part of John’s Gospel.

It isn't stupidity, it is only stupid to those that dwell in falsehood, yet have the audacity to call themselves a Jesus defender, more of a joke if you ask me as well as hypocrisy. The reality is, God's Word is there, its in the oldest source, but to add on to God's Word, that is where the falsehood lies, and those who accept and believes it, such ones like you, will often defend it when the only source we have from back in the day ultimately crushes the belief of which you deem as true regarding specific verses, you have shown me to be in the right with the verses you posted, not realizing some of the verses in question are cited by you, that my friend, is stupidity and foolish.

Sad person? This coming from a man who made claims that there are 2 other Gods besides the Father then turn back to say only the Father is God? Very telling and quite most, evident. Like I say to everyone here, to the CSE, to those in Islam, to the Jews, to the Satanist, to the Anti-Religious, to the Lost ones, I speak the truth and will defend the truth and nothing but the truth, for I adhere strictly to scripture and what the bible says in addition to the understanding of one's Christology, mainly with those who follow what is true and what is not true.

 

I suggest you start opening your eyes, Deserter because you keep them shut, on purpose even. And spare insults, for you are making checks you cannot cash from the very beginning.

Also, "LOL" in caps? I am sure you are grown, such meaningless fortune cookie nonsense is unnecessary, save that for your buddies of your at work.

@Brother Rando It is impossible to reason with a Trinitarian, such ones are way too dense in the skull compared to a child who listens and understands of what the scriptures mean and from the one who teaches said scriptures to him. Like his kind, such ones will use 1 John 5:7 and 1 Timothy 3:16 as well as a dozen of other verses said to have been forged, added, not following the oldest source. It is known to everyone that Trinitarians have forged 1 John 5:7 for the original verse says the following: For there are three that testify [witnesses]: for this original form is of the oldest source around the 4th century, we see Trinitarians use this verse, but its forged counterpart that is used by the KJV, as seen here: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. Such has been changed via TR/JC 16th century. The same goes for 1 Timothy 3:16 for GOD was added into the verse to make Jesus appear as God when in reality, the 4th century source does not say GOD anywhere in this verse.

The hypocrisy is that not only the Truth Deserter is not only a Trinitarian, he is clearly a JW opponent (who follows a man who is both an atheist and a Wiccan paganist) of some of the worse kind, for they spout everything and anything to say JWs are in the wrong, yet they do not have anything to back it up. The Truth Deserter stated in his other post JWs omitted the verse to paint them as wrong, when in reality, the verses in question are not of the original source, the most damaging thing is many people found out about the forgeries and additions that originated from the 16 century tom foolery, even Muslims as well as those who do not follow a Christian denomination and are totally neutral, up and down the UK in Speaker's Corner will bring this truth to light to the point that Trinitarians have nothing to say about their falsehood. They also like to use 1 Peter 1:1-2, but never address the second portion of verse 2 nor do they go on to verse 3 because Simon Peter addresses the only true God as the Father, then again, any testimony made by Peter, Paul, John the Baptist, Jesus and last but not least, God, utterly destroys silly claims such ones make. And they most efintaly will not agree with Paul either, for what Paul had addressed about Jesus in Galatians 4:14.

It is even funnier when they attempt to sing and dance to defend the whole Adulterous Woman passage (John 8:1-11) or prove that the Holy Spirit is a person, but when the critical questions are asked, they refuse to answer.

For any man who defends forgeries, it is as if he is throwing a snowball into a roaring furnace, for such an action will not yield any result, only further proves that the Trinitarian doctrine an its followers are decreasing.

A little something should any Trinitarian have something to say about removed Bible verses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Testament_verses_not_included_in_modern_English_translations

That being said, they are ignorant, but only a handful among them listen to reason for such ones do not no any better compared to their dense headed counterparts, but it would seem we have quite the fish on this hook, and out of the bible, there is but 3 verses that utterly destroys their claims and doctrine in it's place.

Other than that, my reaction with hardcore Trinitarians is the same when they flail like fish to defend falsehood, they make agnostics look good to some degree:

 

48 minutes ago, Jesus.defender said:

I have told you YES, i do copy and paste. In this instance, FROM THE WATCHTOWER ORGANISATION as it is much easier than typing it all out.

May you repent of your sin and be born again.

I know, but I choose to address whenever I feel as though should be addressed. You are not copying from the Watchtower, you are copying from an Anti-Watchtower website and it is evident by means of your little picture show. Other than that, you seem to not be able to make an explanation of your own so you find "help" from the only source of which you love so much.

You cannot tell a man who has not sinned nor is blind to repent, for a man who believes that the Holy Spirit was present during Pentecost as a person, for a man who believes a person, a Spirit strengthened Samson, for a man who believes a Spirit had intercourse with a virgin, for a man who believes that a person enabled a muted man to speak, the list goes on, is the same man who is needing repentance. As for your last copy and paste mix up, clearly you do not know what it means to be born again, let alone the origins of the baptism, for should one ask you as to why John baptism HIS people in the Jordan River, it is 100% fact, Trinitarians do not know such an answer compared to one who actually studies the bible. Therefore, one who needs to take the conversation Jesus had with Nicodemus about being born again, this man needs to repent, the very man who shows hatred to his neighbor, this man needs to repent, a man who urges others to break God's Laws, this man needs to repent, for a man who does not know right from wrong, this man needs to repent.

This man in question, is you, for you are no defender, no, you are merely a Trinitarian follower who accepts falsehood and speak of mis-truths, a truth deserter.

What a shame, but all of you are the same, nothing to show for it, but I guess according to your belief, this person of yours is on a mission.

 

That being said, anything you say regarding the bible, will only be proven with biblical fact and truth, as it was done previously, and it can be done now, deserter.

 

Other than that, you've yet to make acknowledgment to the verse that is of topic, 1 John 4:1, and clearly, such is being used against you.

@Jesus.defender You do realize it has come to the point it is not about JWs anymore, for it is solely on the truth about the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit is as what I had already described pages ago, nothing of such cannot be deemed wrong.

@Jesus.defender An the copy and paste antics keeps on going, as for our early Christian counterparts, they were entirety Subornationist, even during the Apostolic Age times (such I had already addressed months ago). The funny thing is this is has nothing to do with the bible, just your obvious disdain for a Non-Trinitarian group, JWs.

Also I am is not the same as I am that I am (ego eimi) that I am/eyeh asher eyeh (ego eimi ho on), please do not confuse such, and it further proves you are as lost as can be.

That being said, a man who is blind, misguided, does not show Berean like traits cannot bless anyone, for he, the man who blesses, is already lost and totally unaware.

The Gospel of John

John 8:58

"Before Abraham was I am."

 Â 

The Trinitarian Claim

Claims made by the come back kids known as the Trinitarians is that Jesus was intentionally employing special language to identify himself as Yahweh/Jehovah (YHWH), the God of Israel. They claim he, Jesus, was using God's divine name to identify himself as Yahweh/Jehovah, and as Yahweh/Jehovah, they claim Jesus himself was saying that he pre-existed as a self-conscious divine person (God the Son) before Abraham existed and for that reason the Jews clearly understood he was identifying himself as their God and wanted to stone him for blasphemy. Trinitarians are actually attempting to make three different claims at once with respect to this verse:

• [1.] Jesus was using the Greek version of the divine name (ego eimi) given to Moses at Exodus 3:14 and was therefore identifying himself as Yahweh/Jehovah their God.
• [2.] Jesus was claiming to have existed as a self conscious living divine person/being before Abraham existed.
• [3.] The Jews knew Jesus was identifying himself as their God and therefore wanted to stone Jesus for blasphemy.

Claim vs. The Facts

The facts that we will see will tell us that Jesus is referring to what he initially stated: he is the light of the world (John 8:12). That Light existed long before Abraham.

The Problems with the Claims

1. Impossibility of the Trinitarian Interpretation

The Trinitarian interpretation directly contradicts Jesus' own words in at least 4 explicitly obvious ways:

• (1) Jesus had just said that if he testified about himself, his testimony is not true (John 5:31; 8:17-18). But that is precisely what Trinitarians have Jesus doing at John 8:58 in direct contradiction to what he said.

 

• (2) Jesus also had just said that if he glorified himself concerning who he is, his glory would mean absolutely nothing (John 8:54). But Trinitarians contradict Jesus again insisting that he did indeed glorify himself at John 8:58 and he did so in the highest way possible, and instead of meaning nothing as Jesus insisted, Trinitarians contradict him and insist it means everything. Trinitarians talk about of both sides of their mouth concerning Jesus. On one hand, they will admit that Philippians 2:5-9 says that Jesus made himself nothing and humbled himself. On the other hand, they have Jesus glorifying himself as God Almighty.

 

• (3) Trinitarians also say the Jews wanted to stone Jesus because they knew exactly what he was saying at John 8:58. But yet again, Trinitarians directly contradict Jesus who had just said these Jesus could not understand what he was saying because they were not of God and were children of the devil (John 8:43-47).

 

• (4) Jesus warned his disciples not to tell anyone he was God's Anointed One (Matthew 16:20; Luke 9:20-21). But we are expected to believe that Jesus was going around Israel declaring himself to be Yahweh/Jehovah their God. It's a ridiculously absurd contradiction. Jesus' own testimony in this selfsame dialogue decisively demonstrates to us that the Trinitarian interpretation of John 8 is absolutely impossible since their interpretation violently contradicts what Jesus had just said. Trinitarians are effectively demonstrating that they do not hear Jesus anymore than the Jews did in this dialogue nor do they even care. They care far more about promoting their false doctrine than hearing Jesus.

2. Ego Eimi (??? ????)

 Trinitarians say that when Jesus used the words ego eimi, the Jews knew he was using the divine name of their God. However, this claim is ridiculous for several reasons.

   

Trinitarians typically suggest that ego eimi was a Greek way of saying God's name,  ????, "Yahweh/Jehovah" (YHWH). But this is utterly absurd on several levels. If that is the case then Jesus effectively said, "Before Abraham was, Yahweh/Jehovah." This is absurd nonsense. And are we also to believe Gabriel identified himself as Yahweh/Jehovah as seen at Luke 1:19 when he said, "I am (ego eimi) Gabriel."

• And the angel answered him, “I am <ego eimi> Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I was sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news.
• ??? ?????????? ? ??????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ? ?????????? ??????? ??? ????, ??? ????????? ??????? ???? ?? ??? ?????????????? ??? ?????·

 

Or perhaps Luke 22:33, when Peter said to Jesus, "I am (ego eimi) prepared to go to prison with you and to death,"

• Peter said to him, “Lord, I am <ego eimi> ready to go with you both to prison and to death.”
• ? ?? ????? ???? ?????, ???? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ??????? ??????????.

Are we then say, perhaps think, that he, Peter, had used the words ego eimi to say to Jesus, "Yahweh/Jehovah is prepared to go to prison with you and to death?" Clearly such is very silly. By using ego eimi was Peter also claiming to be Yahweh/Jehovah?

Now, let's turn to John the Baptist, specifically John 1:20, for when John himself had said said, "I am (ego eimi) not the Christ," are we expected to believe it really means John the Baptist was saying that Yahweh/Jehovah is not the Christ?

• He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am <ego eimi> not the Christ.”
• ??? ?????????? ??? ??? ????????, ??? ?????????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ? ???????.

 

Now let us see The Centurion said, "I am (ego eimi) a man under authority"  as seen in Matthew 8:9, are we to believe this really meant, "Yahweh/Jehovah is a man under authority" and The Centurion was claiming to be God?

• For I [too] am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. And I say to one, ‘Go,Â’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,Â’ and he comes, and to my servant, ‘Do this,Â’ and he does it.”
• ??? ??? ??? ???????? ???? ??? ???????? ??????????, ???? ??' ??????? ??????????, ??? ???? ????? ?????????, ??? ?????????, ??? ???? ?????, ??? ???????, ??? ?? ????? ??? ??????? ?????, ??? ?????.

When Jesus said one of his disciples would betray him and Judas Iscariot literally said, "Not I am (ego eimi) Lord?" are we to believe this really meant Judas was claiming to be Yahweh/Jehovah and Yahweh/Jehovah was going to betray Jesus? seen in Matthew 26:25. Why aren't Trinitrians being consistent with the term ego eimi in many other passages? The implications of the these Trinitarian claims are disturbingly ridiculous.

• Judas, who would betray him, answered, “[not] Is it I [am] <ego eimi>, Rabbi?” He said to him, “You have said so.”
• ?????????? ?? ?????? ? ?????????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ????, ??????; ????? ???? ?? ?????.

Or maybe perhaps the Blind man as seen in John 9:9, who had said "I am the man" surely we cannot think of him as Yahweh/Jehovah.

• Some said, “It is he.” Others said, “No, but he is like him.” He kept saying, “I am <ego eimi> the man.”
• ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?????· ????? ?????? ????, ???? ?????? ???? ?????. ??????? ?????? ??? ??? ????.

In the Greek Septuagint, the actual divine name revealed to Moses was not, "ego eimi" as Trinitarians are suggesting to everyone. God's divine name in this Greek translation was "ego eimi ho ?n" which means "I am the being", "I choose to become",  "I am the existence", "I am the existent one", or perhaps the following "I am that I am" or some similar idea. In plain and common English, some translations which read as, "I AM sent me to you" are not translating "ego eimi sent me to you" from the Greek. The Greek actually reads "ho ?n sent me to you." (Exodus 3:14). In other words, it does not say, "Ego eimi sent me to you." This Trinitarian claim is precariously perched upon a farce that God's divine name in Greek is simply ego eimi. But it isn't.

NOTE: ego eimi ho ?n in Hebrew is Eyeh Asher Eyeh (??????? ?????? ???????? | ’ehyeh ’?šer ’ehyeh)

 

It also seems that people manage to get two different questions confused right about here. The words ego eimi are used many times in the New Testament by several people. These words were part of their common everyday vocabulary. The expression ego eimi was common to everyday language for Greeks just as the words "I am" are common to our everyday language in English. Nobody regarded ego eimi as two Greek words uniquely reserved as the divine name of their God. A blind man, as mentioned above in the next chapter, 9 verse 9, identifies himself by saying, "I am" (ego eimi). Trinitarians are essentially trying to turn a routine language expression into the divine name of God to disingenuously suit their doctrinal purposes.

Now, let us observe how these two men identify themselves by saying, "ego eimi."

• 2 Samuel 2:19-20  - (19) And Asahel pursued Abner, and as he went, he turned neither to the right hand nor to the left from following Abner. (20) Then Abner looked behind him and said, “Is it you, Asahel?” And he answered, “It is I.” [(i.e I am.]
• John 9:8-9 - (8) The neighbors and those who had seen him before as a beggar were saying, “Is this not the man who used to sit and beg?” (9) Some said, “It is he.” Others said, “No, but he is like him.” He kept saying, “I am the man.”

This Trinitarian claim is usually presented as if Jesus suddenly broke out the words ego eimi which no man ever used, in order to identify himself in a shock and awe manner which provoked the Jews to anger since they would automatically recognize ego eimi  to be the divine name of their God. However, the contextual facts demonstrate this is absurd and just the opposite is true. During this very same dialogue with the Jews in John chapter 8, Jesus used the term ego eimi several times before he used it at verse 8:58 (8:12,16,18,23,24,28). And through those many utterances of ego eimi by Jesus during this selfsame dialogue, not one of these Jews at any time ever supposed Jesus was referring to their God. The use of the term ego eimi  never even caused them to raise an eyebrow. The Jews had been asking Jesus who he claimed to be. In that context, Jesus had used the term ego eimi twice before in a very similar manner and they never even blinked. This fact alone clearly demonstrates that the Jews did not think the use of this term was a reference to the divine name of their God.

• Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am (ego eimi), you will die in your sins.” Then the Jews said to him, “Who are you?” (8:24-25).
• Jesus said, “When you lift up the son of man, then you will know that I am (ego eimi) and I do nothing from myself, but I speak these things as the Father taught me. And He who sent me is with me; He has not left me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him.” As he spoke these things, many came to believe in him. (8:28-30).

Did these Jews think Jesus was using their God's divine name? No, it never even occurred to them.

Another false premise that those among Trinitarian camp expect people to accept is that if Jesus did somehow pre-exist before Abraham then this somehow makes the conclusion that he was a so called divine 2nd person of the Trinity, hanging out with God in high up in heaven way before creation, as well as after. The problem here for the Trinitarians is that Non-Trinitarians such as Jehovah's Witnesses and others, believe Jesus existed before Abraham without believing he, Jesus, is God, for such ones know that the only God is the true God. To suppose Jesus pre-existed does not amount to a pre-existent hypostases of a 3 person God (Triune God). Pre-existence is a not a license to resort to imaginations and absurdities.

Furthermore, in the Jewish mindset, if something had been predestined by God at the foundation of the world, it was already a reality. For example, let's look at John's Revelation,

• Revelations 13:8 - and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

A Jewish son of David, bounded to death (dying), was a reality long before 30 A.D. When God predestines, the reality begins. Moreover, He fixes the times and seasons things will be manifested and fulfilled in the time and space of our creation. God is not a part of our creation and our time and space. For God dwells in timelessness and is not subject to time, so although everything God has predestined to occur is already a reality, it doesn't mean we have seen it yet.

For it is known, that Jesus is indeed the promised Messiah, the Christ. God promised this Messiah/Christ even before Abraham was. When God makes a promise it is always fulfilled; it is a coming reality, a reality that is a reality even if it has not arrived here yet. And that is what Jesus was talking about. He is the promised one, The Messiah, The Christ, the flesh, the very man who God has put his Word in this Prophet's mouth, the very Word of which is spoken to the people by this chosen one of God.

5. Blasphemy: The Alleged Jewish Motivation for Picking up Stones

Trinitarian apologists also have an unwarranted interpretation this verse John 8:59, which reads:

• So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

They claim the Jews wanted to stone Jesus because he was claiming to be Yahweh/Jehovah and so under their Law they thought he deserved stoning. Many Trinitarians will even make the absurd claim that these Jews would not have attempted to stone Jesus unless he was claiming to be God by suggesting that the only way Jesus could have possibly blasphemed God by claiming to be God Himself. But that is completely untrue, utterly false. The Bible shows us that one could blaspheme the name of God in many ways (Romans 2:24, Isaiah 52:5, Ezekiel 36:20,+). Moreover, the Jews stoned Stephen to death and he was not claiming to be God.

But it doesn't stop here, for the situation for Trinitarian Christians is even worse. They need everyone to accept the premise that the Jews would never have stoned Jesus unless he had broken the Mosaic Law as if to say these men were upright, righteous law-keepers and would never have stoned Jesus unless they thought he had somehow transgressed the Law. Trinitarians suggest that if they attempted to stone him, it necessary means that the Jews thought they had a lawful reason to do. But again, Trinitarians will indeed deny the plain facts and the testimony of Jesus himself to make this claim. For Jesus had testified to the contrary in this selfsame dialogue.

Stating that these men were lawless hypocrites

• Matthew 23:28 - So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

Moreover, Jesus, again, here testified that they wanted to kill him

• John 8:37,40 - (37) I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you. (40) but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did.

Such being said long before his statement found in John 8:58.

Jesus also tells us why they wanted to kill him, we find this out in John 8:44

• You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

In the Gospel accounts, Jesus identified these men not as law-keepers but as lawless hypocrites, thieves, liars, murderers, serpents, and sons of Satan. It should be quite clear that the Trinitarian suggestion that these men would never transgress the Mosaic Law is pitifully ridiculous in light of Jesus' testimony concerning their lawlessness. Trinitarians deny the words of Jesus who tells us in this selfsame dialogue WHY these men desired to kill him. They wanted to kill Jesus and stone him because they did the desires of their father: the devil (John 8:43-47). Moreover, the Trinitarian claim says that the Jews wanted to stone Jesus because they clearly understood what he was saying at John 8:58. However, this directly contradicts what Jesus had just said about the Jews. In addition, He said they could not understand what he was saying because they were not of God but of the devil (John 8:43-47). That is the testimony of Jesus, the Son of God, the Messiah/Christ who has been sent by the Father. And if we actually hear Jesus in The Gospel of John, chapter 8, it is the testimony of God the Father since Jesus' words were not his own but the Father's who sent him. Why then do Trinitarians not hear or believe God? Most certainly, they keep their ears covered, their eyes shielded, and their mouths closed.

6. The Confusion of the Jews = Confusion of the Trinitarians

Jesus had said that Abraham rejoiced to see his day. The Jews respond by changing what Jesus had said, "You are not yet fifty years old and you have seen Abraham?" But Jesus didn't say he had seen Abraham. It was the other way around. He said Abraham rejoiced to see his day.

Analysis of the Evidence

1. Two Required Witnesses

At John 8:12-58, the entire dialogue between Jesus and the Jews concerns who he claimed to be and that two witnesses were required concerning this matter. Two witnesses were required under the Law and Jesus himself said that if he testified about himself, his testimony would not be true. He clarifies this matter by explaining he spoke the words of the Father. Hence, the Father Himself was the second witness testifying about Jesus. In the same way, Jesus said that if he glorified himself, his glory would mean nothing. Two witnesses are required and the two witnesses were Jesus and God the Father.

2. Jesus spoke the words of the Father

Jesus said that he did not come to do his own will but to do only the will of the Father. For this reason, he tells us many times in the Gospel of John that he did not teach his own teaching or speak his own words. He only spoke what the Father gave him to say. He also said his words were not his own but the Father's who sent him. Once we understand that Jesus spoke the Father's words, it is clear how the Father was the second witness concerning who Jesus was. Not only so, one we realize Jesus spoke the words of the Father, his words, "Before Abraham was I am" are words the Father was expressing to these Jews.

3. I am the light of the world

The dialogue between Jesus and the Jews began when Jesus declared, "I am the light of the world." God the Father is Light (1 John 1:5) and the Father abiding in Jesus did the works (John 1:10). Now let's remember that when Jesus said, "I am the light of the world," he spoke the words of the Father as he reminds the Jews in this discourse (John 8:26,28,47). Therefore, whoever receives the testimony of Jesus has certified that God is true (John 3:33, see 14:24). The Father was the True Light which was coming into the world and John the Baptist was testifying about that Light (John 1:6-9). In this way, Jesus declared the Father (John 1:18) in terms of all the things he said and all the things he did. The works that I do in my Father’s name, these testify of me (John 10:25, see 5:36). The Father abiding in Jesus did the works (John 14:10-11).

Jesus declared the Father who is Light by doing his Father's will, saying what the Father gave him to say, doing what the Father gave him to do. The Father who is Light was explained/expressed through Jesus and for that reason Jesus could say, "I am the Light of the world," that is, he explained/expressed the Father who is that true Light which was coming into the world as John the Baptist witnessed about that Light. The Father existed before Abraham and his will for the work of the Messiah existed before Abraham. Now that will of the Father was being manifested, fulfilled.

4. The Light before Abraham

Abraham rejoiced to see Jesus' day. Jesus is the Lamb who had been slain before the foundation of the world (Revelations 13:8). God had predestined the Lamb to be slain on when the Lamb had been crucified. Jesus was the promised seed which God had promised to Abraham:

• Galatians 3:8 - And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”

By faith, Abraham was "looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God" (Hebrews 11:9). In faith, Abraham believed in a better home, a heavenly home (John 11:16-21). Abraham's seed had been promised (John 3:16-18) and Jesus was the fulfillment of this promise. The man Jesus was a reality from the time God promised him to Abraham and that is true because it was God who made the promise. Indeed, this was a reality before Abraham came to be. He is the Lamb who had been slain from the foundation of the world.

The Jews had asked Jesus if he was greater than Abraham. In their eyes, no man could be greater than Abraham and none of them would say they were greater than Abraham. But before is greater and Jesus' answer was a Yes. He had been predestined from the foundation of the world and Abraham rejoiced to see his Day, the Light of God. He was greater than Abraham and then meant Jesus was greater than these Jewish leaders and that was something which made their blood boil.

Conclusion

God the Father is Light and that Light existed long before Abraham. That flesh named Jesus declared the Father. The Father abiding in Jesus did the works and in this way that body of flesh was the Light of the world, the Light of the Father shining through a human being. Because the Father abiding in him did the works, and this body of flesh declared the Father to the world in terms of all the things Jesus was doing, this flesh was shining that Light of God the Father who is that Light. This flesh, Jesus, was that Light of the Father, that Light which existed long before Abraham.

I am the Light of the world.

Abraham was glad to see my Day; He saw it and was glad.

Before Abraham was, I am.

12 hours ago, Cos said:

Some THINK that they “address” what is said but they don’t, instead they go on long and incoherent tirade’s which make no sense, and don’t “address” what is stated…they only imagine they do.

This is why I have stated before, biblical hermeneutics is key to study, research and understanding, to learn and take in knowledge of who God is and his purpose and will means, who is his Son and how does the Holy Spirit play a role to the Son and to anyone it has been bestowed upon.And no, these are not tirade's as you claim for it is deep understanding of the truth, example, John 14 and 16, as to what has been address, you learned something, you didn't even know about gender forms until I brought it up, yet you remain oblivious to this fact and repeat yourself like a broken record. As it was said by many, a day will come when people will realize what the mainstream Christians of today's Christendom have been teaching what is deemed incorrect, luckily, Textual Criticism, as with hermeneutics and several other things to bring forth the truth of scripture to life. It is very evident, like pages before, you will repeat yourself time and time again, at this point to what you will repeat, an answer to such will be reposted here via link, you have no foundation here. And I believe I have addressed everything regarding what the Holy Spirit is and what it is described as, with biblical verses as proof also, and as of yet this so called personhood or Godhood of this make believe doctrine regarding the Holy Spirit is nowhere to be found, nor does it know the day or the hour, and it has not manifested into a being or a person or physically convinced a child, as to what you Trinitarians tend to believe, for truth will always be truth, falsehood will always be falsehood, and those who speak truth always defend it.

Jesus wants his followers to teach and adhere to the truth, unlike you, I have been to areas that people want a full explanation to this, that or why this is, etc. Those who are students are always eager to learn, like children, the very example of which Jesus himself made clear of when he used children as an example when it comes to learning about God's Kingdom, as well as the truth - the very truth of which the mainstream cannot accept.

12 hours ago, Cos said:

So what if various Unitarians have varied teachings…so what? The point I made about Christadelpians is valid, but this fact is skirted and then, what they teach, is imagined as being “addressed”, a totally preposterous claim.  This example typifies the imagined “already been addressed” response that is being repeatedly employed. <><

Unfortunately you have to care, for there are those who tech very differently and far form the truth than others. Such a faith derive from Millenarianism, they hold a view of Biblical Unitarianism, which is indeed true. The irony is, your biggest problem is such ones do not really hold a view of Jesus' pre-existence, but I do, hence why I stated denominational as well as non-denominational Unitarians tend to agree/disagree with each other, for Buzzard will not agree with my view of Jesus' pre-existence and I do not agree with his view that Jesus didn't pre-existed. Other than that, despite such ones of that I even refute, I do not remain ignorant of their views.

Christadelpians belief on Satan The Devil: Christadelphians believe that the Satan or Devil is not an independent spiritual being or fallen angel. Devil is viewed as the general principle of evil and inclination to sin which resides in humankind. They are convinced that, dependent on the context, the term Satan in Hebrew merely means "opponent" or "adversary" and is frequently applied to human beings. Accordingly, they do not define hell as a place of eternal torment for sinners, but as a state of eternal death respectively non-existence due to annihilation of body and mind.

Christadelpians belief on Pre-exustence: The Christadelphian denial of the pre-existence of Christ.

The list goes on, but anyone who studies religion will know the views of a Millenarian Christian (clearly not even a Unitarian group, as you claim), any man who knows the Christology knows who they are and their beliefs, it is not mystery nor is it a secret. It is also safe to mention here also that Millenarians are fore Traditions of Men. It is not hard to know of their Christology, but clearly, you cannot compare them to those who believe that the Devil is a Spirit Being that once held a position in Heaven, and or those who believe that Jesus had pre-existed before he was on earth or even given the name Jesus, so that is where your fault remains in, but it is no surprise of the James Whiting that is being done here.

Clearly it is known even before the Devil became Satan, he was among the Spirit Beings/Persons who were in heaven until he rebelled, thus becoming God's adversary, becoming the Devil, named Satan for Satan means accuser or adversary (as well as resister), as for Devil, meaning slanderer, being called that because he is the Chef and foremost slander and false accuser aka The Father of Lies. Satan eventually had his influence on some of the angels, thus they became demons, and Satan is the ruler of these wicked spirits, in addition to those who disobeyed God, an example would be how several angels had fancied women on earth, had sexual relations with said women and bore children, the Nephilim, that would later proven themselves to be violent and brutal towards others in such a violent time. Clearly demons can be cut off from having access to God's dwelling place, that is, Heaven, and eventually Satan himself was cast out and he was hurled (banished) out of Heaven like that of falling lighting out of the sky.

Clearly my views pertaining to scripture it is very evident and trying to equal me to that of a millenarian is a poor attempt and very silly, despite the fact that months before you already know of my applications of what the bible says and what it teaches when the dishonesty being spouted had been exposed in said topic. The very reason it is important to care because such things like this will push one to view the Devil as a mere threat, the Devil, an adversary of God is no mere threat for he can cause any imperfect man to stumble, be it the man does not know it or not, for being alone or doing knowing is a sin right there and it leaves one exposed to the Devil's attacks and the welcome of his demons, such we have to be very careful about, this goes for the falsehood that is of the mainstream, for the Devil cannot triumph over those who profess what is true and strive to do what is true. For anything that is liked, it is expected for him and his demons to show and during that time, we will have to be ready for it, for Jesus is a fine example, for when the Devil had tempted him, Jesus prevailed, when the Devil succeeded in getting Jesus killed, he has still failed for God has resurrected Jesus, for when the Devil goes after the church, followers of Jesus prevailed, ones like Paul, who removed those who defiled the church, namely Hymenaeus and Alexander, when the Devil pushes false truths, those who take the scripture with utmost seriousness, will defend it, when the Devil prevents those in countries to not know who God is or never seen a bible in their life, God, who wants to make his Word made known, enables such ones to learn about the truth of the Bible.

 

That being said, those who claim the Holy Spirit is a Person are only of the Trinitarian Camp, and only them, but truth shows us as to what the Holy Spirit actually is and what it can do when it is poured out.

@Cos Such has already been addressed, and clearly the group you repeat again here, again, is a Millenarian Christian group who hold a view of Biblical Unitarianism, in fact, this has been address before, but since you like to ignore things, I will repost exactly where you have been corrected on such.

and I quote: (May 22) Christatadelphains are a Millenarian Christian group (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millenarianism) who hold a view of Biblical Unitarianism. The funny thing is, I told you before the difference in every Unitarian group, so this shot taken towards me is very weak, in addition to that I address before that not all Unitarians are the same, nor do all of them agree with each other, but it is no surprise a Trinitarian such as yourself will go to this length, very laughable too.?

 

Everything else has already been addressed before, hence what the Spirit is often described as. Like I said before also, not wise to be using Paul when he made a clear affirmation in his epistles.

@Jack Ryan To call on all JWs scared is silly, we cannot judge or take into account the action of one, perhaps two JWs vs others out of the 8 million within their community, all of them are different, by race, experience, background, etc, all of them, male and female of various ages, some able bodied, others with disabilities and or something that hinders them. Haven't you seen African JWs or the Middle Eastern ones? Ones with a strong cultural background tend to speak on even the most critical of issues, even critical bible questions of which many shy away from. Moreover, this goes for pretty much both the religious and non-religious who are open to speak about and teach child abuse prevention, teaching about strangers and how to protect yourself and a list of other things, some better than others when speaking about this matter. We cannot be ignorant here. That is like saying a specific race did something so we blame all of them, perhaps law enforcement and how they are treated for the actions of some other officer on the other side of the country.

Open your eyes, man. The irony is, it is fact hen it comes to the bible, such ones who speak ill are afraid to go up against an experience, let alone a strong able person. This was the case with Mr. White, bashing the faith, only to be met with someone from the faith and being corrected and made a fool of.

@JW Insider Alright cool, whatever works.

@JW Insider Thank you, if anything just call it Christendom Claims: True or False.

@Brother Rando The fun factor is, Lord Jesus Christ affirmation of the law of which he was brought up into as a child defeats the Trinity doctrine catastrophically (Mark 12:28-34; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Deuteronomy 6:4), as well as Jesus' position as a mediator regarding both practitioners and benefactors. This also  goes for the Testimony of John the Baptist and Simon Peter, both of whom who bore witness to God the Father speaking to Jesus, as well as the crowd as seen in John 12, in addition to Paul's affirmation of the Law and what he had sent to the Early Christian Church and clearly states Jesus not being considered equal to God in Philippians 2:6, onward you see of whom Paul was referring to, lastly, we have Jesus himself affirming that the Father is indeed his God (John 20:17, Revelations 3:2) as well as to the very end of his life, he cried out to God (Matthew 27:46, foretelling - Psalms 22:1,Isaiah 53:10, Mark 15:34).

 

That being said, both the Law and mediatorship ultimately destroys the Trinitarian claim, for everyone is aware that Jesus had read the Old Testament and knows about who His God is and what His God had done for the people.

People know such truths, but they refuse to listen.

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

I am not going to address this pathetically long post, so congratulations, you got what you wanted.

Typical. Everything I address is always in a single post when a response is required. I do not seek what I want, I merely address what is truth out of the bundle of lies and or conspiracy people will bring up, I did it before, and I will do it and always will do it again - especially when met with individuals like you, who are all the same, especially the "you deny Jesus"category.

I suggest you check thyself before thee wreckth thyself, for if I last recall the only absurdity of a long post originated with you and you alone (5 pages, back to back, a clear copy and paste full of errors and boosting it as truth, is indeed, pathetic, such of which will make even a novice among JW look more experienced in regards of which you have displayed:

 

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Now, you can play the "haha, you cannot refute anything i say" game or the "i won" game if that makes you feel better.

When it comes to the Bible and Theology, and the Christology of others, it is no game. God does not play games with anyone, nor any serious one who applies biblical study and understanding in their everyday lives. If you want to play games, I suggest you find yourself a local playground, perhaps one with a jungle jim.

6 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

you are a fool brainwashed into your unitarian cult and instead of having a dialog on one point at a time, you make absurdly long posts in the hope the other person will give up.

Typical. Clearly you do not know my actual stance, for I have said before, I am an independent biblical Unitarian, one that believes Jesus as indeed pre-existed not to be compared with other Unitarians who do not. The funny thing is, I had yet to address anything pertaining to such, but I can see you making checks you are not willing to cash and I can address one thing further proves why you mainstream are at fault. And no, I am no brainwashed into anything, with what I know and my experience, you say this because all you want to do is throw a jab at me, a jab that is seen as weak and flails, unable to make contact.

You speak of long posts, but if I last recall, you were the one who make more than 3 page long posts to a single response I made, to be ignorant of what you made post of in regards to a single comment I made, that is very hypocritical, for I make a direct response all in 1 post and 1 post alone, which is very evident starting from page 5 and onward.

But people like you do not like biblical explanation, you see a verse, accept it as is without further research and or study, Jesus wants teachers, not "as is" mainstreams of today's Christendom who lack understanding.

I do not expect people to give up, so do not make a claim you cannot cash, I expect people to learn out of the mist of their own dishonesty, and when I am met with a response, as I said here, time and time again, I always response, even directly. But it would seem truth itself is too much for you to bear.

Cult? That is cute. What is funny is the hypocrisy is there. You deceive millions by means of twisting the truth, you accept it, embrace it. Mainstream Christianity stick together and always will and always have until judgement day, the very day they will see for themselves that it is indeed too late. You have broken the church, you have allowed people to not take the bible seriously and continue to lead a double life in sinning, you do nothing in regards of the Great Commission, there are parts of the world that do not know God and they expect the favor of knowing the truth, not some man made silliness came out of the 4th century, where is is clear that your people would even kill to push the Trinity. The history is there, and people know it, the very reason why real Christians around the globe is teaching what is right, what is truth against your mainstream theology that has plague this world like a spreading virus to an open wound. And such ones like you will attack and make speak of conspiracy about others, only to push your biblical, even kicking those who are down to justify the absurdity of the mainstream teachings.

Clearly, you, are no defender, nothing more than a pawn, a blind one to the mainstream, the truth is presented before you, it does not take a JW to even show you that, but you refuse it, you remain ignorant of it and therefore you will be the very person to preach and rant about a false doctrine only to be met with individuals like me, and trust me, there are those who are far worse and can be beyong stirct and critical.

6 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Well, you win.

I give up on you.

God bless.

You can continue to say that. I am not here for games - games are for children. I am here to discuss truth from the bible itself an speak against falsehood of anther's Christology, especially when such ones like yourself is quick to accuse others when the gas is very low.

Perhaps next time, read your Bible more and know what truth is, and open your eyes to see you have been taught by those who deceive, but is is 100% fact, that JW opponents are more crazed and blind than others, one such as yourself.

That being said, you call those blind and or brainwashed, yet you take the words of Satan's followers seriously when Jesus made it clear as to what he said before, THAT, my friend, is a problem, and you not knowing that only proves the very point I make time and time again, and I made acknowledgement of that, yet you continue to refuse the very bible you read, for @Anna comment was direct from the bible, and the bible alone, and still you remain ignorant.

So it is safe to say that those who do not adhere to truth, those who do not apply God's Law, those who do not recognize or apply what Jesus entrusted his disciples with, etc. there is no question on who will be saved and who will not.

I will put this verse here so you know:

• Matthew 7:22, 23 - (22) On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?Â’ (23) But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws.'

As I said, this is no game an this is no win/lose situation, I expect you to LEARN and APPLY what the bible says. For you do not see it, but the reality is, this is indeed a LIFE OR DEATH situation, the JWs are smart enough to also see this hence the very reason they are deemed Restorationist, you have to be also and thread carefully. If not, clearly when Jesus comes, with a sword in hand, he will not recognize you, best to make the effort to be recognize rather than not being recognize, for if you have forgotten, the end times and tribulations conclusion will be far worse than what has already been done in ancient times.

@Jesus.defender Again, nothing of which you have post will not help you nor does what you have made mention of is not of this topic. I believe most of your comments are copy/paste, especially with what you have made a response to with elsewhere. The irony is, if fit the bill for what I had addressed here and it is fact that the typical mainstream, such as yourself, do not apply what the bible says, therefore, your spirit, has been tested.

@Jesus.defender Perhaps next time, actually read something before you you make comment, and make sure you are honest about it. And may God help you open your eyes, should you choose to accept it.

@JW Insider In reality, there are those who do not really care about what the bible says. It is common in the EU, a whole lot in the West, US specifically, that those who go to any church, excluding the blind ones, for such ones do not know any better compared to their ignorant counterparts, only go there because they either:

Have nothing to do and only go there just because, at times just to avoid going to secular work and or other.

Go there just for a social club/gathering and do not really take into account of the bible. All they care about is getting people to join their inner circle and or if so and so lacks in a big circle of friends, they go to churches only for that, they do not have a care in the world for what the bible says, as for the church, they do not apply God's Laws whatsoever and are not as strict, which equals, more sin.

Go to, as they say, pick up girls, or the slang they use, chicks, the same can be said for the opposite sex, only go the for the guy who looks good and or has the biggest wallet, best job, etc., and at times, what is being discussed when they should be attempting to learn the bible, they, instead, speak of very immoral things in combination with doing bad things as well as drinking and or having immoral relations with someone in or out of the church. To add more fuel to the fire, such ones wear revealing and or inappropriate clothing, clearly seeking attention and or to be the center of attention, such ones do not even recognize that one has to be modest.

The people go to a church which uses the bible to defend polygamy, pedophilia, homosexuality, same sex-marriage, and a list of other things. Some will even try to say that homosexuality was never in the bible and will throw every verse they twist in counter you and defend their man made views that they apply to scripture. On the other side of the spectrum, you have hate preachers that will attack anyone who is clearly a born sinner, we know in the bible God is not a fan of homosexuality, but if we have a lesson to learn, we can learn from the people of whom Jonah taught about God, that people are willing to change if they find accurate truth, but this is not the case today, for hate preacher condemn any man that God will kill and torment them because of not knowing any better. For God is justice, the bible makes it clear such ones will be judged.

We also have those who believe that once saved, always saved, which is not what the bible teaches. Faith and Salvation is a hard fight to maintain, one cannot be saved and not do nothing at all, but such a thing is being professed in the churches.

People at times gain access and position inside a church in order to do ill-intent, as well as take advantage of the church and its members, men, women, children, pet animals even. Some, at times seek to have a powerful position in the church in order to be rude and act like a boss and be negative towards every member.

Pastors with guns, for they can shoot an unarmed person who is of little threat, one situation where a pastor, who shot the boyfriend of a woman, who was clearly angry of what he had found out about the pastor and his ex.

Then we have the prosperity preachers. They apply laws of the Levites by adding the tithe when Christians are not suppose to, for Christians can have free will offerings or donations, but not the tithe, this 10% money nonsense that the churches are applying.

The list goes on and on and no church in general out of the mainstream are applying lessons and structure of what the 1st century Christians have done nor do they apply the bible with seriousness. But should any man seeks truth outside of the mainstream, they are deemed foolish, cultist, fanatics, infidels, blasphemers, etc.

The sad thing is, such mainstreams do not realize, they gave themselves into Babylon and the religion of which is being put on a pedestal when gathering religious leaders of this world of all nations and yet people think of this as a big step, not realizing the danger that is very evident here.For this is the very reason, such ones, like myself, have an issue with mainstream Trinitarians.

Such is the very reason why Christianity is declining all over the world since 2015, it is so bad that Yoga and Bars are having to be invited into the church, which is very shameful.

God knows those who suffer for what is true, and he will gather his people, he knows who makes the effort and who is really trying to seek out what the bible says, for God knows who is for him.

That being said, it is easy to pick out the good apples and it is expected to stumbled upon spoiled apples from time to time.

For mentally and spiritually, this world is indeed blind when it comes to the Word of God, and when someone is telling the truth, they simply ignore it or remain ignorant and continue to roam with their heads down. History, especially to what we see in the bible, tends to repeat itself, only this time when something does happen, it will be the last time.

@Jesus.defender Everything you have said, has already been confuted, addressed, explained, reinforced, and placed with bibical facts and solidified information that cannot be broken by falsehood. The thing is, this discussion has little to do with the Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses, it is more Trinitarian false ideas and theology being corrected with what the bible really says, for you can use all the WT information you want, it is nothing more than throwing snowballs into a roaring furnace, 0% chance of success to put out a fire that represents truth and nothing but. If you want to defend his claims, you surely could do a better job than that, but clearly, you have not proven anything.

Other than that, you've proven yourself to be as equally misguided as the Trinitarian, Bob the Builder (I have confronted and corrected him, IRL before).

 

??? Not this one ???

 

??? This one ???

 

Therefore, your lack of faith in what the Bible says, is very disturbing.

@Jesus.defender Copy and Paste will not help your resolve here, it would seem you like jumping into something that has already been confuted.

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

But it IS obvious that you are ignorant of Biblical context.

I guess you were hoping i would not play your red herring game with this long post, but i WILL reply to most of it.

Not really, for I made references to that sole verse for a reason, you fail to see what I was alluding to, thus the silliness in the copy/paste comments that you made in respond. You are not the first Trinitarian I have seen, nor are you the last, but all Jesus Thumpers who consider him as a God are all identical, and very flat in explanation and not on biblical hermeneutics.

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

LOL. Philippians 2:6 does not say Jesus is not equal with God. "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" Its not robbery if you already HAVE it.

"Triggered"? Sorry, i am not american. What does "triggered" mean? Does it mean someone who gets upset over something? 

Paul never tells us what Jesus regarded and or considered; he tells us what Jesus did not consider or regard equal to God the Father. Even Jesus himself did not regard or consider to such - the idea of being equal to God, hence the comment, Jesus is not equal with God, at all, whatsoever. He did not regard a plunder to be equal to God, period. This was something Jesus did not do and Paul tells us further down the line that to tell us what Jesus did do in contrast to what he did not do.

You are, for this is common coming from a person who has posted comments back to back within seconds of each other, you only sing your song to those who want to listen, not to those who do not.

I am not American either, nor were you referred to as one, but one thing is certain, you can read, comprehend, and understand as well as respond in English. Triggered means (of a response) caused by particular action, process, or situation. Pertaining to what I have said in a single comment, you went on your merry little way to seek what man man understanding you can find and post in not once, not twice, but several times to a minor comment of which you yourself do not know what I was aiming for, which is ironic because it would seem you still fail in grasping what I stated about the verse I posted.

Your posts however, have many errors in it, and I am not the only one who sees that.

 

Therefore, using Philippians 2:5-8 will not help your case, specifically verse 6. It has been talked about a lot and has been correctly confuted in both context and a great deal of biblical hermeneutics.

That we must recognize to ourselves who Christ Jesus is, The Son of God, The Lamb who has been sent with God abiding in Him, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance and or the likeness as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death when he, Christ Jesus, was crucified.

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

You call me "friend" whilst being rude and offensive to me? Hardly "friend", my frie?nd.

Whether you are a "Christian", "critical" or not remains to be seen.

When it comes to scripture, I am very strict, to the point I give lecture and or critical criticism, I blame the CSE community who consist of those who are up there in their Theology since I have grown in such a community, who is often critical. I am neutral with you, and clearly it is known as to how my view of the Trinity is, I see it as unbibical and for many many years, I come across the same people like you, day in and day out, with the same response and such only prompts me to correct, nothing more. I can be a bit brash when I stumble unto honesty and clearly ones who have been misguided, and I do not take kindly to those who call everyone who strives to do what the bible says only to be marked as denying Christ, the same end-all nonsense that only comes from the Trinitarian camp, and with the experience I have, I can point out many wrong to people to claim this as well as Molech worshiping Christians and any from the mainstream. You have proven yourself to be the obvious candidate.

Oh, I am a Christian, and clearly I, as a Christian, will do what is necessary to defend scripture, as I have stated time and time again, to many, even to your Trinitarian scholars, Jay Smith and the like - you are no different.

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

I have "attempted" nothing. I have proven it. You did not address ONE scripture verses i quoted. Emmanual. GOD WITH US. is another name for Jesus, BTW.

If you are NOT a JW, why are you here defending them?

Even though i believe you ARE a JW, i will not quote watchtower material to/with you then because it is irrelevant. Lets stick with the Word of God.

What ARE these "4th century" sources? The AGE of a source means NOTHING and is NOT proof of correctness.

You haven't proven anything. I know what Emmanual (Immanual) means, any man who utters sheer hermeneutics, knows the bible page to page, book to book and knows passages even by the slightest of thought. Such ones like myself take the bible with the utmost seriousness as well as Christian History of all men.

I am not a one of Jehovah's Witnesses, yes, however, I have studied their Christology and understand where they are coming from, as with any Restorationist Christian, for Restorationist tend to be closer to what is truth than most. They do not believe in the Trinity, they do not believe Hell is the lake of fire (for clearly Hell cannot be cast into Hell), they do not believe Jesus is God, and a list of other things. The defense comes when people make lies about Restorationist, they say they have guns under their churches, they say they have altered the bible when clearly they follow the oldest source, and it has been proven by even the most critical opponents to Trinitarianism, and the like.

You can believe in the tooth fairy, or Caesar the Ghost, I am what I am, and I know what I know. When you are built up in a strict Christian community, to learn the bible religiously to the point of it being intertwined with your life, you adhere to truth, and nothing more. You begin to learn of what truth is and who is actually seeking truth, let alone strive to be close to what is true.

One should be able to speak truth out of all the misconceptions that are out there, an example would be the comment you made: They deny Jesus. That is false, it is evident this claim of yours is very untrue and it is the same Trinitarian nonsense that comes from the same people straight out of the mainstream, what is also untrue is the teaching that everyone who denies the Trinity will be tossed into the fire and be tormented with God overlooking them for an entirety, this is utterly false and clearly you do not know God's reaction in the old Testament to such a thing, the very reason I alluded to what I would have been said, an clearly, you missed it.

You can't stick to the Word of God because you are adding mainstream ideals to the scripture. This is the very reason why people like you are having a declining mainstream church, when people find out about the false explanation of verses and passages, they just leave Christianity altogether, and the irony is even Muslims are pointing this out, and I have made mention to this proof before, that being said, the mainstream adaptation of Christianity does not follow the church, nor does it follow the scripture, and clearly, you remain ignorant of this, as do your mainstream brothers and sisters who sees the truth in the bible, but turns away from it. You can quote the Watchtower until the cows come home, but actual facts, and biblical hermeneutics will put you in place, no matter how you knock. Us at CSE know everything, for the community itself is strictly bible based and we are harden in knowledge because of what the bible says, as well as our knowledge in the history of the church and Christianity itself, like a fire, what the bible says will and always will prevail.

The fact you do not know the oldest and most reliable source, further proves my claim - You do not know your bible as well as you think, and the fact you stated that, well, it proves what we say about the mainstream Trinitarians of Christendom.

A shame, but bless be those who wake up from the misguidance of the mainstream and seek and apply scriptural proof, woe to those who know of such and remains ignorant.

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

The problem you have, like other JW's is that whenever you see God, you think of God the father.

Whilst on earth, Jesus WAS subservient to God the father, He made Himself a little lower than the angels. 

Remember,  "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

Psalm 10:16 "The Lord is King for ever and ever: the heathen are perished out of his land."

Dan 6:26 "I make a decree, That in every dominion of my kingdom men tremble and fear before the God of Daniel: for he is the living God, and stedfast for ever, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed, and his dominion shall be even unto the end."

Nothing here to support your claim. Again, whenever you see "God", you only see/read "God the father".?

There is no problem, for what I say is truth and always will be truth, I do not make the Father or his Son appear as a Triune being or a being who works out of modes - no, such a thing are utter heresies and does not follow our Apostolic Age brothers and sisters of old.

The Father is the One and Only True God, and such is affirmed and made in testimony from individuals like Peter, Paul, John and many more, even our Lord, Jesus Christ, the fact that Jesus, as a child, a born Jew under the Law, had to recite, learn, pray, observe the Old Testament as well as learn of who the God of Israel is and what he has done for the people, hence the very law of which is considers the foremost commandment he profess, well into his adulthood.

What you fail to see in Isaiah 9:6 is the very context of what this verse says. The facts regarding this verse/passage show us that such names are given to people as well as places, for these names do not mean that these people are places are therefore God. Moreover, it show us that the Messiah would bear this name because he represents our Eternal Father and Mighty God's wonderful counsel since it was God who made it all happen; He raised up the Messiah to carry out His purposes, mainly if the verse is taken into context just as what such was done in a similar fashion regarding Hezekiah, a son of David (forefather), who will sit on the throne of David. Anyone who understands the context of this verse will recognize what this verse is referring to, describing even, what God the Father Yahweh/Jehovah will accomplish through this child-son. The context is there, yet you do not see it because you are an obvious mainstream who allows himself to be blind.

 

Don't see why you are quoting Psalms 10:16, that verse is passage referring to God the Father. This merely tells us that God is King forever and ever and it is a direct reference to Exodus 15:18, Psalms 145:13, Jeremiah 10:10, Daniel 4:34 and 1 Timothy 1:17 - exactly. If Strong's is solely applied for the Hebrew Old Testament verses, we see of whom it points to - ??????? which refers to Yahweh/Jehovah aka YHWH/YHVH (3068), God Almighty (El Shaddai). - http://biblehub.com/lexicon/psalms/10-16.htm

As for Daniel 6:26, which also points to Daniel 3:29, is also referring to God the Father, who is indeed the God of Daniel, the very same and only God to Sha'drach, Me'shach and A'bed'ne'go.

As for the last statement you made, clearly you have no idea what biblical hermeneutics even means. Such ones who speak of hermeneutics are clearly well disciplined in scripture and history pertaining to the church and Christianity of old, therefore, I know quite a lot, I am able to speak Greek as well as Hebrew, of which I thank my professor for, who dwells in Israel's history, as well as the Old Testament.

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Now we are talking about John and Zechariah? Let's stay on track.

They were mentioned to make a point, something of which you did not see regarding to what I made the response to. We are on track, the question is, why do you not see it yet?

This was brought up because I stated the following to your claim: God has always given task to the one who is to have an important role in aiding Jesus

The very reason why I continued on to say: this one, John the Baptist, for even his Father Zechariah, now being able to speak by means of the Holy Spirit being poured on to him, made this acknowledgement (Luke chapter 1).

Both of them knew what Jesus' role was, Zechariah, being the one to speak to Gabriel before, referred to Jesus as the Horn of Salvation, the one to bring deliverance to the people, the one who has been talked about, etc.

The fact that you didn't see or understood, further proves my point. Mainstream Christians like you do not read for context nor do you bear absolute understand of a passage correctly, the ironic part, it does not take a Jehovah's Witness to tell you when the very Bible says it clearly.

We know of John's role due to what Gabriel, as well as what Zechariah had said we we see it, we know it. Jesus' Baptism, John's Testimony.

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Of course. Jesus wasn't like us men either. God the father is NOT a man. I agree.

However, "greater" doe not mean better.  

But you are either confusing the two or calling one the other.

Jesus was sinless and pure compared to us sin filled individuals. Jesus was flesh though, he was tired, hungry, angry, troubled and yet fearful, and not all knowing. Unlike us God was with him 100% of the way, hence Jesus as his chosen Messiah.

God the Father is certainly not like us men, however your copy/paste response says otherwise, perhaps next time re-read hat you post.

For the last bit, the Head of the Christ is God (1 Cor. 11:3, 15:27, 28) - that alone should be very clear to you. If Christ is clearly greater than us men, which is evident, God himself is clearly above Christ, for no one is equal to or above God. God is the life-giver, he raised the Christ out of the death, for we know God the Father is the God of the Living and the Dead, is is that great, as if the Old Testament had not made it any clearer, especially regarding the whole temple fire situation that was immense to the point even the people on the outside of the temple made reaction to it, or the fact that the Moses being the one to speak to God for the Israelites were in fear of God for not only he was great, they feared him.

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Whilst on EARTH, you are right. He was NOT on "equal footing" with God the father.  In John 14:28, Jesus is not speaking about His nature or being (Christ had earlier said in John 10:30, ‘I and the Father are one’), but about His lowly position of incarnation as a man.

The Athanasian Creed says that Christ is ‘equal to the Father as touching His Godhood, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood’. Christ was here contrasting His human humiliation, shame, suffering, rejection, opposition by enemies, and
soon crucifixion, with the FatherÂ’s majesty, glory and worship by the angels in heaven.

Jesus said, ‘The Father is greater (Greek: meizon) than I’, not ‘The Father is better (Greek: kreitton) than I’. ‘Greater’ refers to the Father’s greater position (in heaven), not to a greater nature. If the word ‘better’ had been used, this would indicate that the Father had a
better nature than Jesus.

As always, and no, what you made response to regarding John 10:30 is incorrect. If we had to accept your mainstream stance on this verse, we should be calling the Disciples God also, clearly this will not still well with any man. In John 14:28, it means what it means, the very fact that it makes a direct references to verses that further proves Jesus' position when compared to the Father only solidifies truth rather than a Trinitarian claim. Moreover, at John 10:29 (cf. 1 Peter 1:4, 5), he tells us the Father is greater than all, including as to what God has given Jesus. Statements like this are generally ignored by Trinitarians making this claim.

As the representative sent by God, Christ Jesus acted on God's behalf. If you so dearly what to equal Jesus to God, the only thing you can equal - acting on God's behalf as his representative (Shaliah) on earth, coming in flesh with the very Words God put in his Prophet's mouth. As for all this power and what God can do, clearly Jesus does not have such going for him, even when he has risen and made superior to the angels, for the Father is and will always be greater than him for he is the Head of the Christ, and clearly Jesus, in this respects is not equal to the Father, whatsoever, the servant is always equal in what he can do and what his master can do, but in power, position and status, the servant will never surpass or be greater, perhaps better than his master.

Jesus was sent, came in the name of God the Father, with respect to his position and authority, his God was greater than him and he never did seek his own will but the will of his Lord and his God. Clearly divine sonship, for this is a function of walking according to the Spirit of God and doing the works of God. Those who are led by the Spirit of God; these are the sons of God, as seen in Romans 8:14 (see John 20:21-22). He did not seek his own glory, and did not come in his own name, but, he came in the name of the only God his, Father - God Almighty (El Shaddai).

As someone who knows Greek quite well, I can see that you tend to mix in your own mainstream theology into the passage, you do realize such a word has other occurrences in scripture, right? Using it for this sole verse and being ignorant of the others, adding your own man made understanding to such, is very revealing, perhaps, more revealing that a red dot on a large white sheet of paper - it shows. 

Also its meizón  (??????) it's number is  3187, in addition, it is comparative to/of 3173, mégas.

If God is above all and is clearly a God of all his sons and all those who dwell the earth, as well as being above the one he has risen and made clear, for God is indeed the God of both the living and the dead, clearly, God is very, very powerful and very great, for he is indeed, God Almighty (El Shaddai).

5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

hat is NOT what the text says. See how you have to add words to fit your warped theology?

Now, i am going to leave this here at the moment in terms of addressing, because you have bought up MANY points in the hope that i will not address them.

Please make your comments shorter and more to the point. Lets address ONE point per message, please.

I am stopping here on this post because i think you will not even read what i HAVE written and i have other things i am busy with.

But it is what the cross-references says and the context of how Jesus is one with the Father. When I say something and affirm it, there is a reason behind it, pertaining to everything I say and make reference to. I do not apply man's understanding, as you have, I merely apply sheer biblical hermeneutics and nothing more.

I bring up points to correct you, I do not expect, nor do I care about response from you, but should you do make some response that is of ill-intent, dishonest, false, ignorant, silly, foolish, slander, false accusations, expect to be corrected, and I always deliver with every truth I speak, for I speak of what the bible teaches and what the passages convey, nothing more and I speak against lies made in regards to history of Christianity and scripture, nothing more - for I defend solely what the bible says and what it teaches with strict seriousness.

My comments are always like this, I am known for this, that being said, maybe perhaps when you make comments, do not make an obvious copy/paste from a single minded source, and put everything into one response instead, none of us here for s 3 paged response to 1 verse and or passage. Fit everything into one page and maybe you will not get a point for point lecture on errors of which you have professed.

I have read what you said, I never shy away from reading anything from anyone, for any man who professes  and studies biblical hermeneutics is open to hear from all men, and even the bible informs us to be very good hearers and not be forgetful, something I apply for a very long time.

 

As for @Anna response, it is indeed correct. You call her wrong for it is not her answer, you call her wrong because she is most likely one of Jehovah's Witnesses and or adhere to the Non-Trinitarian faith of which they profess. The irony, even non JWs or non Christians understood this passage, very clearly, Muslims even, ones like Hamza Myatt.

Your response: No, the Jews knew what Jesus was saying, thats why they tried to stone Him. “The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.”

As I have stated before, Jesus is saying that he and the Father are one in terms of purpose and will and the works he was doing in the name of the Father. What you also missed is the very Laws those Jews follow, a Law of which God himself had said to which Jesus made mention of in verse 34, 35. The law of which he speaks of (clearly cannot be broken) is found in Psalms 82:6

We see here that God has said the following: I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;

It also makes a direct reference to 1 Corinthians 8:5

• For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”—

We see further on that Jesus made it clear that he was sanctified as well as being sent by the Father into this world and claimed to be, even said, that he is God's Son.

Now, when we are honest with the CONTEXT and the attitude and state of these Jews, these Pharisees, we see exactly as to why this situation is and how it came to such.

In the Gospel accounts, Christ Jesus did not spare any words concerning the Pharisees. In the Gospel of John just two chapters earlier, Jesus had explained how these Jews could not understand him because they were children of the devil, and the words he spoke could not be heard by them because they were so blindly caught up in their own desires to do the will of their father Satan. We know this because of John 8:38-47.

Now if we are being honest, we are to appreciate what Jesus said here, for it is clear. Jesus had said these Jews were not able to comprehend what he was saying to them because they were children of the devil and wanted to do the desires of Satan the Devil. They couldn't understand Jesus because they were not of God at all (Pharisees). Therefore, it is a bit absurd to suggest and or assume that these Jews are necessarily stating an accurate understanding of Jesus at verse 33 in John 10. They did the works of their father the devil and the devil is the father of lies and clearly such ones were indeed lairs. Not only do we find the Jews clearly dumbfounded throughout the Gospel of John, Jesus said these men were liars and murderers who wanted to kill him. Which calls into questions such ones like yourself, as to why do Trinitarian mainstreamers like you regard the words of these evil men as if they were spoken by God Himself? Jesus said these Jews could not understand what he was saying because they were evil men who were not of God. This fact alone presents a serious problem for the Trinitarian interpretation of verse 33 since the interpretation in question, the very one being professed, relies entirely on the premise that they did indeed understand Jesus and were accurately portraying who he was. Hence, the very reason why we have people like you claiming these Jews completely understood Jesus when Jesus declared they did not and could not understand what he was saying to them because they were of the devil and blinded by their desires to do their father's will.

So Anna's response here: Well that was the Pharisees wasn't it? We would not expect them to understand what Jesus meant would we?

Is right because Jesus was in direct line of sight of the Pharisees, and we already know how they view Jesus, and clearly, they are not like fan girls seeking an autograph from someone they admire.

Anna's Response: On the other hand Jesus explained to his true disciples exactly what he meant: John 17: 20 -23

Which is also indeed true, but you still ignore biblical fact.

Anna's response: Surely you would not suggest the disciples were God and/or Jesus would you? Rather it is obvious that Jesus was referring to the complete agreement that exists between him and his father and would also exist between them and  his followers.

For this is indeed what Jesus made it clear to us as what being one even means, it does not make him God, nor his disciples and or those of the early Church.

And lastly,: In fact if you read further on in John 10: 34-36 Jesus shows that he rejected their (the pharisees) understanding (that he was saying he is God) and then  10:37-38 it is quite clear Jesus was saying he is God's son and that he is doing the works of his Father: "Do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?+ 37  If I am not doing the works of my Father, do not believe me".

Which is exactly and 100% true. Yet you still act out how you are in your triggered and rant filled antics,and yet you call yourself, Jesus Defender. All I see is another typical Trinitarian out of the mainstream, for such ones like you will no longer blind anyone else from here on out, and a whole lot of us are making this so.

The more you know, the better.

@Anna Exactly, 100% right. The funny thing is, they never want to read beyond verse 30, because they know it would stop their claims dead in it's tracks. The same goes for John 20:28, only this time, they don't want to read before - knowing that Thomas was not present when the risen Jesus appeared, and only then when the disciples came and then Jesus was revealed to Thomas, to his shock, he said what he said, and the passage itself is regarding seeing is believing, especially when Thomas is being talked about for he doubted that Jesus had risen. Hence why one can call back to what Jesus had said which connects with this passage, John 14:10-11; 12:44-45.

It is pure annoyance when people deny the truth itself that comes from the scriptures, at the same time, they HATE when someone is right for saying what is 100% correct to what the bible says, they remain in denial, they accept "as is" claims from mainstream Christian, example John 10:30, such ones say this proves Jesus is God, but when told the truth, they don't want to hear it. This also goes for those who are ignorant or misinformed about one's faith, why they believe this and that when it come from scripture, for such ones have more sense than those who believe in what the man-made version of Christianity that is professed by a lot of people around the world who do not accept what is true.

Not to mention the type of Christians (Molech believers) who take delight in the death of others, or the fact that since they believe in fire torment and that God is omnipresent, being there 24/7 to watch endless torment of people, these types of Christians do not know ANYTHING about what Gehenna is nor do they know what Hades is. Such ones fail to see that God himself, emotionally, reacted to fire torment in the Old Testament. For God the Father said it best himself:  I did not command them, nor did it enter into my mind, that they should do this abomination. (this is but one of many verses regarding such). Mainstream ones do not know this, yet they practice this doctrine that is false of fire torment.

The very reason why salvation is only vital by those who profess 100% what the bible says, those who follow accordingly to how the church is structured and operate, as did the 1st century Christians, or organization, as they say, the very word that is not fun to use by, in this case, JW opponents, they fail to see a faith itself is pretty much Religious organization, no matter how hard they try to knock it.

SHE the church, the people IS the church, and HER teaches will remain intact, anyone who says otherwise of HER and HER people, is clearly not taking anything seriously, be it the bible or the church or what God says.

25 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Actually no, since that is their carrot, that is the exact thing in which they use to lure in others. 

1 hour ago, Space Merchant said:

Actually it does, it is no lure, for the Great Commission is what it means and it has been commanded by profess Christians. Evangelicalism is the spreading of the Christian gospel by public preaching or personal witness. zealous advocacy of a cause, in addition, missionary zeal, purpose, or activity. What man does not take great zeal in what Jesus commanded? A Restorationist' main focus is the Good News Gospel, of which, Jesus himself preached. The JWs are basically acting out as their role as ministering missionaries who preach to convert to their church, therefore, such ones become students, and eventually teachers.

You cannot preach the good news gospel when doing nothing, Jesus himself went from town to town, spoke in synagogues, such is done in a similar fashion today, the only different is some preach from the bible, some do not.

31 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

How can you believe this when their publications state otherwise? 

You sure about that? What do you think I am even quoting from? That being said, anyone understands the functions and operations of a Restorationist individual and or group, everything and anything they do is in the bible, it is for the bible and it comes from the bible, for that is how the early church operates, so do they. There is no bunny in a hat magic, in this sense, for core Christianity being profess is indeed a practice by some, even JWs. Muslims recognizes this also.

Than again, you only cited a 1990 publication with 1 page when there is evidence that there is more pages to this article, and a 2006 that has not been addressed yet. If anything, to state your resolve, just copy and paste the article here if it does not work, surely that would have reaped success on your part.

34 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

This is actually their slight of hand tactic. I say this because they will say that "well, those folks never heard of our message" and that gives them the escape from the argument. It is a diversion from the actual beliefs that they currently hold. 

Friend, this is indeed fact of what I stated. As for this escape argument, it is evident, that JW opponents only got for inexperienced. Jehovah's Witnesses and or novices of the faith, they never dare to cross an experienced one, which was the case with some Trinitarians. Even with Muslims, they never came across an experienced JW let alone someone who knows the bible very well, Hyde Park speaks for itself, for instance, there was a case with Christian who said they manage to win an argument against a JW, but later on, that same argument revealed their hypocrisy on the verse that they posed to JWs, therefore, making JWs and the Bible experienced Sunni, correct.

The silliness however, is when a JW is indeed right, he is said to be wrong, which was the case in a debate video I posted several months back.

As for actual beliefs, I believe they can speak for themselves on what they belief, and what they see that is true from the bible, they can explain it, but they won't waste time with nonsense of those who do not listen, so they simply dust off their feet, and go to the next person.

That being said, the theology of JWs and their Christology is very, very obvious. The primary problem Mainstream Christianity has with the Jehovah's Witnesses is that they do not believe Jesus is God, others are neutral with JWs because they do not want to make mistake when the day and hour comes, therefore, they wait an they watch being very careful with making accusations to those who do not fit the description.

41 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

I never meant for it to be linked. It kind of makes me chuckle that instead of addressing the quote, you dismiss it because the internet link doesn't work. Its equivalent to sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling "LA LA LA, I CAN'T HEAR YOU" 

And? If a link is dead, the person in question who will have to edit and or correct it, make sure the link is visible, at CSE, you can be called out for it, during my early years, I have posted broken and misdirected links when I wanted to prove something, over time, I learn the importance of making sure such links match what I am saying, which was the case with nearly all my comments on this forum and elsewhere.

So I say to you, I do not address nor believe your claim, that is why I made mention of the link being dead, so therefore, you can update and or post the link to prove your resolve, or just leave it as is. As for the last bit of comment you made, grown men do not adhere to antics of children, so what I had mention is with utter seriousness for what is being talked about, nothing more. But if it assumes you to speak of such, so be it, for if it was not any clearer to you before, I value information, therefore, I expected, yet saw nothing.

46 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

Your response to the 1990 quote says nothing about the fact that the wt says one MUST appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah's organization is essential to their salvation. Reworded it is saying that if one does not identify themselves as jw they have no salvation. Its the crucial element of this thread. You can wish it away all you 'd like, but the fact remains that in their publications it clearly states the answer to the question in the title of this thread. 

I add address it, didn't quote it exactly though, more of making a point here regarding the practices of JWs.

Anyone who recognizes salvation knows that clear adherence to the scripture is indeed vital for salvation, mainly if following that of the original organization in regards to the 1st century. As long as the JWs get you to learn what your bible says, as long as they make God's name known, his Kingdom, his Son, etc,

Like I said, their organization follows the same structure as that of the 1st century Christians, and if we are to be honest with what was said about the church, the same can be said about this faith group also. For it is a must to follow what the church has taught, the teachings that come from the bible, anything outside of it will render hope for salvation. the JWs believe that their church follows the 1st century, they even address their structure in that same article and how they operate. The article itself, as stated, it directed to helping a bible student learn the teachings and be among the flock, like I said, bringing the sheep into the flock with accurate knowledge of what the bible says. JWs believe what they teach is the truth, their Restorationist roots, even tracing to that of their Apostolic counterparts, do whatever is necessary to be closer to the truth than far from it. This is the case with even non-denominational Restorationist who are of no group and live a lifestyle that you wouldn't even adapt to, but they fail in one aspect, Great Commission, and only the group in question professes such.

For if salvation was indeed important to you, why not you preach it then if you think of the JWs to be on a rocky path themselves?

It is no surprise that Jehovah's Witnesses will separate themselves from Mainstream Christianity, for even the things that Jesus entrusted, they take seriously oppose to the mainstream, who do not. For as the saying goes, being a Christian, mainly a hardcore one, is not for everyone.

Therefore, I remain as neutral with them because I am being careful myself not to break any of God's Laws, to accuse a man and later on to find oneself subjected to judgement, is not the path I or wish on any man. I have respect for those who takes the bible seriously, and not adhere to accursed teachings, hence my stance with them ans several others who are trying to seek truth with a great deal of struggle. But clearly those who are far from the truth and spark ignorance of what the bible says, using the bible to defend what is accursed, such ones, will be refuted. As for information and knowledge of what each denomination stands for, such ones will also be refuted and corrected on such.

That being said, the other pages of that 1990 article, I will find them, for that is a link. As I said, provide more, with the pages intact.

Other than that, JWs would be 100% hypocrites, if they say such a thing and do not preach, for knowing what the bible says and not to preach it at all, especially the good news gospel - that is utter selfishness, but clearly, they preach it, as did Jesus, and as do those who fight against what is accursed.

Lastly, you mention crucial element of this thread, this same article makes mention to other pages, can you provide so we can go on further? or perhaps update the other link? Maybe provide the the more evidence that you seem to have?

As for what I address, my source was the link provided in my other response, as well as the history of Restorationist Christians who emerged from The Great Awakening from many many years back, in addition to a former JW, being a source as well.

Also I don't make wishes, that is something, culturally, as absurd and somewhat related to pagan-like practices of men.

The original church and anyone who adheres to the original church and those who profess this same structure, such is essential to one being saved. Any practices outside or does not follow the church, such is accursed and will get more of what is coming to them than those they show deceit to. This goes for what you have shown me in the past to which I spoke in correction.

2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

I'm sorry but it is you who missed the point. The point is the title of this thread. 

I wasn't referring to the thread itself, I was referring to the response you made. As I said to before, I make a direct response to a claim, for the response here, I never made no mention of the main topic of the thread, solely my response is to direct and at times specific comments. But if you want me to address op, I will do just as that.

That being said, what I have said before, still stands, in response, to a comment which you made to which I made the direct comment to, the very reason I break them down and target a specific claim.

2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

In general I agree with you on this view point, but unfortunately the wt does not as you can see from their publications I quoted above. 

And of course, you pulled it from the very website that is clearly in opposition of the faith, anyways, let us analyze it anyway.

Provide more, for the more information, the better. And all pages included, not one sole page.

2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Just as Noah and his God-fearing family were preserved in the ark, survival of individuals today depends on their faith and their loyal association with the earthly part of Jehovah's universal organization." Watchtower 2006 May 15 p.22

"They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah's organization is essential to their salvation." Kingdom Ministry 1990 Nov p.1

To start, it is known that, the Jehovah's Witnesses faith would have no reason to engage in the preaching of the gospel alongside their community,  if they didn't believe that there wasn't any hope for others. Certainly if JWs believed only THEY will be saved, that would defeat the purpose of the whole evangelizing work, now wouldn't it? They are certain that God's mercy will extend to all kinds of people, black, white, Chinese, an adult, a child, etc, regardless of sex, such ones are preached to about the good news gospel, the same of which Jesus himself preached himself, as addressed by the four gospel accounts. At Acts 24:15, apostle Paul stated that God the Father is going to resurrect even the unrighteous, alongside the righteous.

• having a hope in God, which these men themselves accept, that there will be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust.

 

One can ask, do they truly believe that they themselves are the only ones who will be saved? The simple answer is no, and everyone knows how a Restorationist is and how they operate in this regard, mainly the ones who adhere to the early Christians and the early Church's structure.

They hold to, and even profess by evangelicalism, that many people that have lived centuries ago and who were not  one of Jehovah’s Witnesses will come back in  the resurrection and have an opportunity for life, as well as being granted of what the bible informs is about - eternal life, life that is everlasting. Moreover, many now living right now, have yet take a stand for truth and righteousness that is heavily expressed in the bible and what Jesus had taught, such ones before the end times and tribulations begin, these people will gain salvation and be saved, especially those who identify who God is and who Jesus is and adheres to what the bible says. In addition, we should also be very aware that God looks at the heart of each and every one of us. He sees everything in total accordance and judges mercifully and he has also committed judgment into Jesus’ hands, not ours, for it is known Jesus was given authority and power (Matthew 28:18). Judging a Restorationist, even when one is a total stranger to you, is very telling and it reveals much about the one who judges, we are not even discussing/ and or including the things in the realm of conduct (from the absurd to brazen) either in this regard.

The 2006 source of which you linked: Your link is dead (x_x), so therefore, a response cannot be made to this one nor can your claims be taken as truth, unless you have a correct link of said information, until then, this claim is as empty as a drunkard's bottle.

The 1990 source of which you linked: You do realize of whom the JWs are making a direct reference to, right? The THEY of whom they speak of in this article is in large purple text. Directing Bible Students to Jehovah's Organization. Such ones that the JW faith start a study with, for the article does teach the disciple of the JW church how to direct one into as well as establish a study. The article also makes it clear of how the viewpoints of the bible and what society is now has changed, an example of our day and age, how one can easily use the bible itself refer to God as Jesus when we know God is not Jesus, or those who defend and justify homosexuality (even to the point they address the word is not mentioned in the bible at all), males sleeping with the same sex, in addition to a defense for same sex marriage by using the bible, or that of slavery and inciting of religious hatred or fighting, and there is indeed a big claims regarding all these things that an uneducated bible student will easily fall to and take every word of what is being professed, if they do not understand fully of what the bible teaches. This is where the JW comes in pertaining to this article, to teach about God's Kingdom and to profess the faith that lines up with scripture, judging by what is being read in this article. The goal in question is to teach them how their organization is bible-based, following the scriptures accordingly, bringing the sheep into the flock with accurate knowledge of what the bible says. What is also addressed is drawing the bible student to the teachings of God, be it by visualizing what the scriptures profess or that of, for instance, how the grown ones teach the young one about God and what he has done, how God, their Rock, has safeguarded them, for the learning of God is Law, as the bible tell us. In the JW's case, pictures and illustrations of passages in the bible as well as accounts, in addition to what is being said at their sermons/meetings of which what is being talked about regarding the bible, as well as things of the past, and things taking place now in today's society, the positives an the negatives, and how it affects Christians, how it affects them as Christians. Jehovah's Witnesses speak such of their church because they follow the same scripture of what the early Christians had with their church, hence why the reference in this same article that even addresses it, for following the structure of the church as did their 1st century counterparts, who were pretty much Non-Trinitarian prior to the Council situation, they are organized and united in the same teachings The Church and Her People, who in turn make up the Church and follow the teachings as they say, (somewhat quoting Irenaeus sort of) and adhere together what the bible teaches, even learn from each other. Anyone who recognizes salvation knows that clear adherence to the scripture is indeed vital for salvation, mainly if following that of the original organization in regards to the 1st century. As long as the JWs get you to learn what your bible says, as long as they make God's name known, his Kingdom, his Son, etc, that alone enables one to go on a path of seeking salvation, for indirectly they can pretty much put you in the very Apostolic roots of which their organization is structured upon, the only difference is the group itself is doing the Great Commission regarding the good news gospel, a command from Jesus, they also take into account of what Jesus had entrusted the church to do, an ability given regarding the Holy House, that is the church, most importantly, its foundation being the Christ, for the Christ is indeed the head of the church and the head of the Christ is God. That being said, it is silly to think only they can be saved, it would be hypocrisy to even preach and evangelize if that is their mindset, let alone bear the interference of their Apostolic Age and Restorationism roots, that is, literal primitive Christianity in the most basic of sense. For the goal for them is simple, get the knowledge of what the bible teaches out to the people, make them learn about it and pave a way for their salvation by means of their organization, for clearly they take into account others, that is why, they preach. Therefore, the whole Jehovah's Organization is following the early church regarding salvation and being saved, to understand the bible, you are part of the Spiritual House, no matter of how you try to knock it, JWs, on the other hand, stick together and like the Restorationist they are, they are adhere to command when it comes to having students; a teacher teaches a student do the student becomes the teacher, and he too will have a student. Therefore, this denomination, that is indeed their Christology and understanding. The only thing that seems to be lacking from this article is the other pages and portions that connects, but clearly, as addressed before about this site, they have some misinformation that can easily be spotted out, example, the Russian I mentioned a while back regarding what and why is a Watchman's Tower is important, hence as to why JWs use that as their identifying logo.

 

Other than that, this is one but many articles posted by JWs on the CSE forums, 4C is quite the knowledgeable:

Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Believe That They Are the Only Ones Who Will Be Saved? The link itself of which I copied from CSE also points to similar articles. It would seem the JW website have also saved me the trouble of searching everything.

Also you can post whatever you got left, so I can read it, please, make sure the link is not dead.

I can go on, but perhaps maybe for the time being I can cut down on somethings. At times, even I feel as though, as I said before, speak too much.

 

I'd also like to address that one can see the answer for this when they are not solely one-sided. This has been addressed, time and time again in minor to very strong discussions about salvation and the like, those saved, those of the church, etc. This isn't the first time, nor will it be the last time, just as there is already a huge ongoing discussion about who God is, and another regarding those who are trying to push immorality defense by using the bible, such things have to be addressed and never one sided, for if such remains one sided, one can easily be blind and not see the other side of the discussion that has more fruits in the basket than the latter.

54 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

right here tells me you do not know the position of the jws and thus cannot dismiss the questions asked. 

 

You seem to be missing the point of what I had addressed. It does not matter if one is a JW or not, was mention still stands. You have former members who speaks against those who see JWs in a negative light, I myself have witnessed such and clearly the very person was attacked for his views and his experience. There is a point to where a former member of a faith can reach apostasy and that is when they speak against either the bible or what the faith teaches, if you preach Jesus is God inside a JW church while being a member, obviously it is going to get you expelled.

There are two groups of former JWs, the ones who continue relentless opposition of a faith to the point of church disruption, be it a meeting, a wedding, communion, a funeral, the list goes on, it has been taken up to an extreme when now such churches are lit on fire and shot at. Such ones see everyone who sees differently as them as an enemy.

The latter is former JWs who respect their former faith and continue to live about their day without inciting and or influence any sort of Christian In-fighting, never will you see such ones disrupt a church or refer to God is such a slander that will make even nuns quake in fear with disgust face. These people often come to blows with their counterparts and these people defend their relatives and friends who are JWs, only to be met with opposition and threats from other former JWs with a negative view, this was the case with what I had addressed months ago, the negative ones who are not Christ-like and clearly against the faith, ran a man off the internet, they ran an art student off the social media, they ran a gay man out of YouTube, why? Because they defended JWs, even though they agree/disagree with somethings, 2 of the 3 people being former JWs themselves. Never has such people speak ill of God, the bible, or his Kingdom.

This is what I addressed before and this is what I will address again.

Out of the two, it is clear who will be judged, especially those judged with clear path for the second death, those who speak ill of God and everything he says through his Word and the Word he has sent. You have one group who is that clearly is of no faith, but still has a hope in what the bible says, for they themselves having demons they are battling with within them, they know what is right and what is wrong and clearly will defend what the bible says when the situation calls for it.

Therefore, it does not matter who is a JW and who is not, you even have those who are not of the faith at all defend what is true, i.e. that Jesus is the Son, not God the Father.

Such things is very serious and one shouldn't be playing around and should be taking the bible seriously.

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

again, not according to their teachings. 

You may want to believe that the jws think the way you do, but the reality is that the wt teaches otherwise. I can, if you require it, provide proof.

You are going to have to prove how it differs because according to the Christian not of the mainstream, it is quite identical, and such can indeed also be proven, with not only the bible, a clear hermeneutical view of what was taught, of which is clear fact, the mainstream do not follow, which is addressed by Christians who are not part of it, and to some extend, non-Christians can call such things out and tell you ant the bible says.

Because when one has something to say, they say it. Probably not in the way that I tend to do it with being overly detailed, but whatever works.

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

You certainly write a lot, but I think some of that is to side track the actual topic in discussion and create an alternate argument about something not even relevant.  

I do write a lot, always have, we have discussed before about Religious worship regarding God vs Jesus, Jesus' birth and the Traditions of man. Information and detail well put together is like fine art to a final piece, mainly if said information is 100% true.

Then again, sometimes I quote myself or allude to something I tend to have said before, only this time I probably got a mix of both regarding both your comments, both alluding to each other because I was busy with @Jesus.defender claims, back to back claims all within seconds of each other, hence the 2 responses to your comment tend to be be nearly similar. But yes, proof is good.

That being said, you can post your prove, just know what I will make in response is regarding what the bible says and the practices of the non-mainstream ones.

 

Other than that, all men are saved when they recognize God's purpose and will as well has his grace through his Son, in addition to maintaining faith and adhere to what the bible teaches. JWs, you, etc, only saved if you adhere to what is taught. Those in any group who do any thing of the accursed, even being ignorant of truth, well, you can throw in the hamburgers with the hotdogs too - there is no middle ground.