Space Merchant
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@admin Yeah this was bound to happen. The whole Fortnite take over the world craze, and the fact it hit the Nintendo scene with more than 2 mil+ in a span of minutes on E3 day is insane. I have a neighbor, big guy loves fitness and all and has 4 kids, him and his kids play Fornite, he himself says up and you can hear him laughing, his laugh is like that of a Hyena, but yeah I don't play games like that, I got stuff to do, if anything, it is Forza Motorsport for me
But you know what they said, whatever is cool today, will be old skool tomorrow, either the community for that game will die off when the player count drops and or shift to something else when it releases. VR though is still expanding though, no one is going to pass up being Hank Hill and impersonate him.
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2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:
Your comment shows a vast ignorance of Scripture, my friend.
No, if I was ignorant it would be obvious, for an ignorant man knows nothing, as for knowing the bible says, clearly what is seen here is who knows what and who does not, you didn't even realize that it is written even means.
2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:Show me some Bible verses as i have the refutations of ALL of the standard JW arguments.
You haven't refuted everything, most of what you said an the back to back comments only prove copy/paste antics.
2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:ie: JW's use John 14:28 - ‘The Father is greater than I’ to say Jesus is not God or not equal to God.
According to Paul, Jesus, being an image/form of God, is not to be considered equal to God, Philippians 2:6. The fact you consider this a JW thing only, bears no fruit. It is evident that you are a Trinitarian, a triggered one at that,hence the back to back comments.
2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:If you are a JW, i know you are NOT ALLOWED to read this.
Clearly, friend, you are not dealing with a Jehovah's Witnesses, you're dealing with one who has proven to be a very critical Christian who confutes.
As for what you have quoted, you attempt to prove Jesus is God, but as to what I said before, a simple law of which Jesus professed as a child kills the claim you make, not even the Watchtower can help you at this point, which is rather upsetting, you can quote the Watchtower all you want, I got a 4th century sources and a thousands of Strong's to use at my disposable.
God is indeed greater than his Son, Jesus because God the Father is the Eternal King (Psalms 10:16, 90:2, Daniel 6:26, Rev. 15:3) and is incorruptible/immortal (1 Timothy 1:17, Romans 1:23). He cannot succumb to what corruptible man can succumb to, God cannot die nor can he bleed (Habakkuk 1:12), so your claim of God's blood is very silly. For anyone to think God, the source of life itself, the Almighty, can die, such a man clearly woke up on the wrong side of the bed and is wearing his pants and shirt backwards. The bible tells us that God is indeed the source of Life, for life has always existed because of the living God, the fountain of life and he has no other or equal, and clearly has been around longer than any of us for Lord knows when (Jer. 10:10, 17:13, Dan. 6:20, 26, John 6:57, 2 Cor. 3:3, 6:16, 1 Thess. 1:9, Ps. 36:9). We cannot be foolish of the Father's incorruptibly. God the Father is the very reason as to why Jesus became a man, for he is the one who sent Jesus after choosing Mary, moreover, God has always given task to the one who is to have an important role in aiding Jesus, this one, John the Baptist, for even his Father Zechariah, now being able to speak by means of the Holy Spirit being poured on to him, made this acknowledgement (Luke chapter 1).
God is not like us men, according to Job (Job 9:32-34) and what is said in the Old Testament, God is not like a Man or a Son of Man (Numbers 23:19, 1 Samuel 15:29) nor does he tell lies like one (Psalms 89:35, Titus 1:2), for we know God is a Justice God, what he says is final and what he says is true, there is no question about that.
John 14:28 makes it clear that Jesus is clearly not on equal footing to the very one who is greater than him, his Father, who is the life giver, the God of the living and the dead, the very one who has brought Jesus out of the pangs of death and made him Lord, according to Apostle Paul.
Regarding John 10:30, the scriptures show us that Jesus is saying that he and the Father are one in terms of purpose and will and the works he was doing in the name of the Father, for the Father that is abiding in Jesus, is doing the works (John 5:36, 14:10,), hence why Jesus has mentioned time and time again to believe in him and the one who has sent him, this was also the affirmation of the early church, who, in turn are also one in Christ, such can easily be seen by the epistles of Apostle Paul. We later found out in John 17:20-23 that Jesus prays (his final one) that Christians will be one with the Father and he himself just as he is one with the Father. With this information in mind, it is very evident of what is being said here. It does not mean they are therefore God. Here we can see clearly that Jesus sees this oneness in terms significantly different than what the this hate preacher would have us believe. For this reason, such blind ones usually disingenuously disregard John 17 when citing John 10:30 for the sake of their accursed doctrine. And it is very clear they do this for a reason, nonsense of which is being seen here in public.
It is also good to see that Jesus explains how he was one with the Father - United Will For Christ Lord, Jesus tells us that he did not come to do his own will but only the will of the Father (John 6:38), and we know 100% God sent his Son, the messenger, the prophet, to speak His Word to the people so they believe he is from God the Father, in addition to his works to further prove himself that he was indeed sent. He also tells us he only said what the Father told him to say, hence why the Father is indeed, greater than the Son (John 8:26,28, 12:49-50; 14:24) He was not able to do anything from himself, by himself, as the Muslims say it, he cannot do anything on his own (cannot do a single thing), but only what he saw the Father doing (John 5:19), and Jesus kept his Father's word (John 8:55). Throughout the Gospel of John, Jesus reminds us over and over in similar ways. He was one with the Father in terms of purpose and will because he always obeyed the Father and kept His word. Jesus did not do his own will. There was only one will between the Father and Son, the Father's will.
My food is to do the will of him who sent me, and to accomplish His work. (John 4:34, cr. 17:1-5).
Long story short, for I am not going to go full out thread mode on this verse itself, there is a whole long to be said here, but clearly this is not the thread to post such, but with every fact and evidence we have, even the brief ones mention. If we are honest, we can see that he, Jesus, was one with the Father the same way his disciples are expected to be with God, in the unity of the Holy Spirit in terms of purpose and will. In such a manner in which he was praying in Gethsemane for all believers to be one with him and the Father, they in us, and us in them. Clearly, the oneness of Jesus and the Father in these passages refers to oneness of function in the unity of the Holy Spirit of God. He was one with the Father in purpose and will and for this reason he prays for his disciples to be one with him and the Father, just as we are one.
So when we look at what Jesus had said, The Father is Greater than I am, for the head of the Christ is God, we take into seriousness of what he met by that response and take into context what the bible gives us information on, clearly this has not been addressed, let alone fully, John 10:30, I got one in the chamber for that one, but I will not speak more in depth for it is quite the response that demands a thread.
Hebrews 1:4 informs us clearly on Jesus' exaltation, in fact, the majority of Hebrews 1 and what the author of Hebrews is trying to convey, such has always fulfilled prophecy hence Jesus being at the right hand side of his Father. He does not prove that he is God for the one who has exalted him in Heaven is the one who has risen him, the one who has made him Lord (Acts 2:36). This is why Paul makes it known to the early church to believe and thank in God the Father, for our Lord Jesus Christ, for God resurrected him, and made him superior to that of his Spirit Being counterparts, for this one has God given authority and power and will soon carry out judgement in his Father's name, for God is Justice, and the Lamb will enact Justice against the wicked by means of his Father. Exlation was not really due to nature, per-say, it was due to what role Jesus had in God's will and purpose, the very fact that Jesus tasted death for us, as stated in the other verse you posted, Hebrews 2:9, what was not mentioned by you is that Jesus' death opens the way for the New Covenant. Moreover, God's grace by means of his Son's sacrifice is evident, providing amnesty for us, and a chance to repent and seek salvation, of which is deemed a hard fight to maintain as read in Jude 3. We are not immune to sin or death, so maintaining faith is key, for even in death, the opportunity for a resurrection is very possible, but should you stray away from God's Laws or what the bible teaches, death is what you'll be continuing to embrace. That being said, Jesus was clearly lower for he was the only begotten, the only one to be birthed as a man, the only one to become flesh in this regard, born of a woman, into the Law of which he profess, learning about his God and Father, eventually becoming the Christ and doing the works of his Father and spreading the gospel of good news, with followers who listen, he died for us, he had risen, made known of the promise of what his Father will give, which took place at Pentecost, he had ascended and was exalted by his Father, being far soupier than this angelic counterparts in Heaven, battled with Satan and is now ready to enact Justice in the name of his Father and bring about the Spiritual House in regard of the New Creation, and when he gives back the Kingdom to his Father, God himself will put an end once and for all to death itself and death/hades, will be no more, for that is the last enemy and onward, God's purpose as is flourishes.
Athanasian Creed, that just proves me point even more, another thing is, what you do not realize is what seems to be lacking, the many important features which you, a Trinitarian claim to believe.
3 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:Ask: ‘In view of greater (meaning higher in position) and better (meaning higher in
nature), is it not clear that in John 14:28 Jesus is speaking of the Father’s temporary higher
position and not his higher nature than Jesus?God the Father's position is not temporary. God has and will always be the one above all, he is the Eternal King, the El Shaddai, Almighty. You think the Father's position of being higher is temporary? God clearly has not filled out a job application for positions, friend. No one is equal to him nor is anyone above him, he is the One True God of Israel, he is my Father, your Father, he is My God, your God.
3 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:How did Christ make Himself of no reputation when He became a man? (Phil. 2:6-9)
Jesus, who is the image of the invisible God is not to be, according to Paul, considered equal to God. This is coming from a man who understood one of the greatest and foremost laws of which Jesus professed as an adult as well as being a child, as did the Jews in those days, to us Christians today, as well as today's Jews and Muslims who profess this from birth until their death. A common thing we all share and a worldwide acknowledgment of such. But clearly, you do not know of which I speak, thus brings who is really ignorant according to your claim. Moreover, the scriptures show us that bowing down before God the Father's Anointed One is to bow down before God the Father Himself because His Anointed One executes the authority of His throne. Nowhere does it states to religiously worship and show total servitude to God's chosen one, if we are honest, we would know the obvious answer to that.
3 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:1. He veiled His preincarnate glory in order to dwell among men, but never surrendered
His deity or divine glory. On the Mount Transfiguration He allowed His glory to shine
briefly. If Christ had not veiled His glory, mankind would not have been able to look at
Him. When John saw His glory on Patmos he said, ‘I fell at His feet as dead’. (Rev. 1:17).
2. He submitted to a voluntary non use of some of His divine attributes (on some
occasions) in order to achieve His objectives. He never surrendered His attributes, but He
did voluntarily cease using some of them on earth. Jesus showed His divine attributes of:
i) omniscience (‘He knew all men’ John 2:24; 16:30;‘Lord thou knowest all things.’ 21:17
ii) omnipresence (John 3:13 ‘the Son of man which is in heaven’).
As God He was everywhere at once, but as man He chose to walk there.
iii) omnipotence (Matthew 28:18 ‘all power is given unto me’.)1. Being God and a Man at the same time is like saying you can be moral and immortal at the same time. What you missed about Jesus' transfiguration is that there were witnesses, Peter was one of them, they also bore witness to God speaking to Jesus and Peter, James and John were present. In fact, Peter made acknowledgment of this in his testimony, of what he had witnessed that day. So one cannot say to mankind if only 3 people were present that day, and we later see of what Jesus had said to them afterwards (Matthew 17:9).
2. Jesus was not all knowing. We know he is unaware of the day or hour of Judgement itself, is is very evident for we see this in Mark 13:32 (also mentioned in Matthew 24:36 and Acts 1:7) and we know only God the Father knows as the other verses have stated and this one (1 Thess. 5:1,2). In addition, Jesus cursed a Fig Tree, for Jesus said the following in Mark 11:14 and the response from Peter (Simon Peter) in Mark 11:21 was also mentioned.
If we are honest, we know that that Jesus is not all knowing unlike God the Father. Jesus is the Word that became flesh and was present on earth, as the Son of Man, to teach the teachings of his Father, for what he says is not based on his originality, again John 14:10, but of the Father’s. Jesus also made this known several times, as well as in John 12:49. We also see in John 5:36 Jesus stated he was assigned such a task by God the Father.
You are also taking the verse out of context, John 2:24, 16:30 (Jesus was not the one speaking the things known in question is what he taught that came from the Father), 20:17 (again, of what Jesus taught that came from the Father, take a good look at John 10:14,15 also)
John 3:13 does not prove omnipresence. Mainly when you take into context Acts 2:34, John 6:38, 8:23, 42. Jesus was in Heaven, then he was on earth as a man, had died, had risen, returned to Heaven, taken by a cloud and two angels. And then theirs Mattias who joined the crew, Judas' replacement.
According to the Old Testament, God is not like a man or a son of man and we know God is incorruptible. So you are calming you have 2 Gods now? Binitarian I suppose. Anyways, you can clear see in Matthew 28:18 that authority and power was given to Jesus, who gave it to him, God the Father, Ephesians 1:20, 21 an Philippians 2:9 is cr'd with this verse.
4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:3. He condescended to take on the likeness (form, appearance) of man and the form of a
servant. (Phil 2:7). His becoming a man involved gaining human attributes (subject to
weakness, pain, sorrow and temptation), but not giving up his divine attributes.Yet somehow death is a possibility, as well as a sense of trouble? Finding himself to be a human being, Jesus had no thought of exalting himself or regarding a plunder to be equal to God. Rather, he humbled himself becoming obedient to death. Recognizing his humanity, Jesus humbled himself before his God serving his God doing God's will even in the face of death. Jesus did not come to be served by to serve and give his life. He learned obedience from what he suffered. As he himself taught, those who humble themselves will be exalted and those who exalt themselves will be humbled. Jesus did not exalt himself over others. Let us be reminded what Apostle Paul is teaching the Philippians. Not to think of themselves as superior over others but to humbly serve them in love. Jesus is their example and as children of God, even as he was a child of God, they are to walk in his footsteps. In the next chapter, Paul himself offers himself as an example, for he emptied himself counting all things as loss to know Christ and to be conformed to his death.
4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:Conclusion: ‘The Father is greater than I’ (John 14:28) said Jesus from the vantage point of
His incarnation as a man. This verse relates to Christ’s voluntary subordination to the Father
to accomplish His work on earth.‘Greater than’ refers to His greater position not His nature.Even when he has risen and is made Lord, Jesus is nowhere equal to or above his Father, who is God, no mater how you try to knock it. As a baby, as a child, a teen, into adulthood, to his death, in Hades, being risen, returning to heaven,being exalted, nowhere, was he equal to his Father. Seriously, one has to be really honest with themselves and read for context in the passages than assume. The factor here too, you claim 2 Gods, when there is one.
The truth of the matter is simple, Jesus' comment about his Father is true, as is the very evidence of the bible speaks for itself (John 20:17, 1 Cor. 11:3, 15:28, Php. 2:5, 6). In addition to that, we have words from John, Paul and Peter, such ones affirmed what the law is all about and clearly, they know that God is the only Father, and that Jesus is the Son, and out of the two, John and peter, they were witnesses of God speaking to Jesus, and had made acknowledgment of such.
That being said, Trinitarians as well as Binitarians do not like context, even when said context speaks against their beliefs and doctrine.
4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:10. Mark 13:32 ‘But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no not the angels . .
neither the Son, but the Father’.Watchtower teaching: JWs say that, because Christ was ignorant of the day of His return,
He cannot be Almighty God because God knows all things.Jesus is indeed ignorant of the day and the hour. The bible makes it clear several times and even acknowledges that God the Father, regarding that day, is said to be on time and like a thief in the night. The only thing you have to worry about is the sword that Jesus will be bringing to a firefight (Matthew 10:34, Luke 12:51-53).
To say this is a JW teaching is absurd and pure tom foolery, you do not take what the bible says seriously, don't you?
4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:Bible teaching: Christ before His incarnation was one in person and one in nature (100% God)
Christ after his incarnation was one in person,but two in nature (100% God and 100% man).
He who had always been God, now took on a human nature at his incarnation. The attributes
of Christ’s human nature and divine nature are both correctly attributed to His one person.
Thus Christ at the same time had seemingly contradictory qualities, possessing both human
and divine natures:You have 2 Gods now, whres your 3rd one? Other than that, God has an obvious nature that does not have anything to do with man, that is, incorruptible. Like I said before, the bible says it also, God is not a man nor a son of man, he does not tell lies, nor can he die or taste death, he is not like men like us and he is the life giver, the God of the living and the also the dead.
4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:He was finite, and yet infinite;
He was weak, and yet omnipotent;
He was increasing in knowledge, and yet omniscient;
He was limited to one place at a time, and yet omnipresent.
He's not everywhere at once, nor is he all knowing, etc. Learn what the bible speaks about Jesus and about God. One has a dwelling place, one roam the earth, risen back to Heaven and remains at the right hand of God.
4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:in Christ’s incarnation, His one person possesses the attributes of both divine and human
natures. Whatever is true of either His human nature or divine nature is true of His one
person. Christ sometimes operated as a man, and sometimes operated as God, all in the
one person. Christ in His human nature knew hunger (Luke 4:2), weariness (John 4:6) and
sleepiness (Luke 8:23). Christ in His divine nature was omniscient (John 21:17), omnipresent
(John 1:48) and omnipotent (John 11).The bible does not say Jesus operates as both a man and a God. Do not add to the Scriptures please, for that is a silly explanation.
Luke 4:2 we all know the temptation, Jesus, quoted what was written also for verse 3 points to Deu. 8:3, even Satan recognize that Jesus is God's Son and clearly what happen after this confrontation, angels from God came to minister to Jesus. God's Spirit is upon Jesus, do you not believe his words in the same chapter in verse 18? Not to mention, Jesus had the Scroll of Isaiah in hand while he was in a Synagogue in Nazareth, and again, he quotes what is written, that should tell you something. As for Luke 8:23, the Father is clearly with Jesus, which in turn, enables him to do such miracles such as this. If we are using logic here, those of God and those who are enemies of God can also perform miracles too, it does not make either of them God, example in Exodus 17, Moses kept his hands up so the Israelites would prevail in battle, should he lower it, the tables turn quickly, with Aaron's help, Moses kept his hands up for such a miracle to continue on until the Israelites won, that does not make Moses God, as did the others who also perform miracles too. John 4:6, Jesus was legitimately tired from his travels. Clearly the man needed to drink due to his weariness. John 21:17 was already addressed, I believe several times. John 1:48 Not omnipresent, granted with what was said the brief conversation between Philip Nathaniel (Bartholomew) regarding The Messiah and the Laws of Moses that speak of the prophet. It was obvious he would recognize of the one God said in the days of old of who is to come (Deu. 18:18), in addition to what Go said to Abraham and what God had already set in motion after Adam and Eve sinned. The prophet of who the people await as the Messiah, that is, Jesus. The irony is you added a verse from John 4, everyone knows of whom the Samaritans were waiting for, they kept the Torah, and even today they, still residing in Mount Gerizim, await Jesus to return. John 11 perhaps because, again, God is with him? You seem to forget that the Father is literally, always with Jesus, granted what he said in verse 4, clearly Go asks and God gives, as seen in verse 22, verse 27 Jesus is the Christ is the Son of God and what went down in verse 41-42, the one who sent him, the one who abides in him, enabled him to perform such a miracle, as later on, his God' given authority will enable him to perform resurrection at a larger scale.
4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:Key: At different times, Christ operated under the major influence of one or the other of
His two natures. He operated in the human sphere to achieve His purposes in salvation.Yet clearly God was with him and that is why he is able to do what he does, he does not do such on his own, therefore, the Father being with him, Jesus was able to do such things, as with anyone God is with as seen in the bible.
Jesus does not have his own purpose, he he cannot do a single thing without the Father, the Father enables his purpose and will through his Son.
4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:wall of text
Yet you still attempt to add things to scripture and continue to equal Jesus to the Father. Anything more you wish to share with the class? The bible discussion room is already booked on the holy spirit.
4 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:Ask: ‘Can anyone other than God be omniscient?’ (No).
Only the Father, not Jesus. But than again, you believe in many Gods, so perhaps for you, the answer is multiple choice.
5 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:Ask: ‘Since Christ had both a human and divine nature, and since He used His omniscience
often, can you see that Jesus was speaking from His human nature when He said that He
didn’t know the day or the hour of His return?Jesus was very unique, there is no question about that, but he is not God, for a variety of reasons, i.e. law of the Jews. Judging on what the chapter is about, Jesus was not shifting back and forth in what he had to say. Jesus was speaking about the end time and tribulations that is to come and informing us what it is all about. There is no shifting in nature as you claim, if that was the case, it would be evident in most of the 37 verses, yet somehow only 1 verse you make this claim and not o the others. Another factor is you show a total disregard of what others have said about Go'd Judgement Day against the wicked. He was not talking about his return, just simply the day of which God had already set for what is to come, such a day is set by the Father himself, according to Paul.
That being said, I can get to your other responses that have many errors, at this point it is sheer bible defense, not only you are bad mouthing another faith, you are turning the scriptures into a Frankenstein monster that I believe you do not even makes sense. 100% man 100% God? Since you like to mention Muslims also, Speaker's Corner will have a field day with the claims you make and since 2015, such claims is causing the decline in what you believe, surely it would have been your faith opponents, but that didn't work out too well now did it?
At the end of the day, you are not putting scripture into context, you claim the other faith denies Jesus yet you do not take Jesus'words seriously. That is hypocrisy, for you are breaking scripture, as seen what is written and said by Jesus himself, and you are adding to the Word, of which God made a Law in this regard in Moses day.
Surely, you can do better than copy and paste, it was not the typos I was looking at, it was the broken context and jumbling of words and passages. You claim to know Jesus yet do not know what it is written means, come on now, the most novice of any bible reader, even a novice JW can spot that silliness easily. You fail to open your eyes to what the bible says, therefore, the ignorance claim of which you speak, is sitting on your table, not on my table for clearly there is a distinction, one who knows the bible, the other who quotes from a source with pre-determine responses, passages and other fortune cookie nonsense.
Therefore, it is safe to say who is really saved, those who know what the bible teaches, and those who are not saved, clearly blind, speak of an accursed doctrine.You don't like the word Trinity, but you should it, the Creed comment was obvious.
With that said, I would make a response to your other claims, I see error and confusion, but you are not worth the time after you fail to see Jesus quoting a law, and the fact you put 2 specific verses in your responses that automatically disqualifies everything you have said in your copy/paste comments. Talk about taking an arrow to the knee.
Like I said before, a dog with a bark but no bite is not a dog at all.
Clearly, maintaining ignorance to falsehood, does not matter if you are a JW, former or not, falsehood will not get you saved.mainly if you accept it and ignore the truth. period.
FYI, as a small remark to your HELL comment, I guess by your logic David may be there also (Psalms 139:8).
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1 hour ago, Jesus.defender said:
You bring up a lot of ignorant statements trying to excuse your(?) religion.
There not statements, they're fact, proven, time and time again. This is the very reason why people tend to have problems with Christians to begin with, for at times such ones do not recognize the problem they have yet remain ignorant of it, as well as the teachings itself. I am not a Jehovah's Witnesses, I am very strict on the bible, Christian history, theology and a list of other things. When someone makes a claim to something that is not of the bible and is not pertaining to the Christology of what is true, it can and will be called out. You are not the first, nor will you be the last, regardless of who you are. If you knew the Christ, you would know how to treat others, mainly to those who are clearly seeking what is true rather than what is false.
1 hour ago, Jesus.defender said:tudy the history of the watchtower. They have NO IDEA what the Bible teaches.
I study many religions, even Islam. If you know what the bible teaches, you broke one thing regarding those who seek what is true. You have also proven the status of mainstream Christianity.
1 hour ago, Jesus.defender said:Just believing in someone named "Jesus" means nothing unless we are talking about the Jesus Christ of the Bible. The one, eternal, everlasting, uncreated God. The one who created ALL things. It is like if you know someone called "bob" and i know another person called "bob". Now, can we have a conversation about "bob" without defining WHO we are talking about? No.
it has, if you take into account what God had said from the beginning of the prophet of whom he speaks that he will put his word. Something as such, the bible speaks about, something as such, one has to adhere to.
1 hour ago, Jesus.defender said:Ignore the word "trinity". its not important.
God is everlasting, eternal, without beginning or end. God is unchanging, infinite, omnipresence, omniscient , self-existent, self-sufficient, immaterial and omnipotent
There is only ONE God. God Himself says He knows of NO OTHER GOD and if He is all-knowing, He would know if there was any other Gods.
The Bible says that God the father is God.You say this, but many seem to speak otherwise and confuse the two. I have also addressed such things of which you claim in another post before, you may want to check some of what you address via scripture, for it is known God has a sole dwelling place.
1 hour ago, Jesus.defender said:The Bible says that Jesus is God. John 8:58, John 1:1, John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8, Isaiah 44:6 ( crossreference Revelation 1:17 )
The Bible says that the Holy Spirit is God. Acts 5:3,4. Romans 8:11
The Bible also says there is ONE God. DEUTERONOMY 6:4, DEUTERONOMY 4:35,39, DEUTERONOMY 32:39, 2 SAMUEL 7:22, 1 KINGS 8:60, 2 KINGS 5:15 , 2 KINGS 19:15, NEHEMIAH 9:6, PSALM 18:31 ( Which also states Jesus is God ), PSALM 86:1, ISAIAH 37:16,20, ISAIAH 43:10,11, ISAIAH 44:6,8, ISAIAH 45:21, ISAIAH 46:9, HOSEA 13:4, MARK 12:29-34, ROMANS 3:30, 1 CORINTHIANS 8:4-6, 1 TIMOTHY 2:5.
Therefore, somehow, these three entities constitute the one, eternal, everlasting God.
We are not told HOW God is God, that is not important. God just tells us thats the way it is.Did Jesus really say He was God?
John 8:58, attempting to compare ego eimi with ego eimi ho on is futile, it is rather weak and silly when one can see ego eimi I AM is not ego eimi I AM THAT I AM. The fact that you try to compare the two and see it as selfsame just proves my point further to what I addressed before.
John 1:1 The word is indeed from God, the Word itself is God and the man who speaks God's Word is also called the Word. What you missed is Deuteronomy 18:18 where God made mention of the prophet who is to come, Jesus, for it is very evident. That is why the people have wait for the Messiah who revealed himself in John chapter 4, and even today, they still await for him. You do not read the verses for context and you miss cross references
John 20:28? Typical. I made a post for that today, look it up on Bible Discussion, what is explained there just halted your resolve.
Hebrews 1 is of Jesus' exaltation, especially as to what he addressed in Matthew 28:18, we also know Jesus is Lord because God made him Lord upon resurrection and has exalted him, making him far superior to those in heaven. I have also addressed Isaiah 44:6 and what Jesus himself said in Nazareth when he had the scroll of Isaiah in hand. So the claim you are attempting to make holds no water.
Revelations 1:17 is regarding the risen Jesus in why he is deemed the firstborn out of the dead, as well as the being the first of the fruits, the new creation of which he is the first and last of, the beginning of the new creation as they say, which consist of the new earth and the new heavens.
Again. such things have already been mentioned, addressed in detailed comments by me, clearly to post everything at once here will take up quite few pages, and I am known for detailed and concise information.
Apparently you fail to see the cross-references to Psalms 18:31, such verses point directly to the Father, for you did state God is the Father.
The funny thing is you are mixing even the law of the Jews to make it seem as though Jesus is God, a very weak attempt, friend, very. Even a Shia can spot such mistakes. The irony is there is 2 passage you mentioned that shatters your claim entirely,a law of which Jesus professed a child, as did his human parents, who also professed this law, but you do not know it.
1 hour ago, Jesus.defender said:That’s exactly how Jesus’ original audience seemed to take it when He said, “I and the Father are one.” In fact, the Jews were ready to kill Him right there! Why? “Because you,” they said, “a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33).
Look at what Jesus said a few verses after that, his response in challenge to these Jews, he revealed that he was God's Son. Jesus even spoke of the written law of which God himself had said, in Psalms 82:1, 6, which can also be seen in 1 Corinthians 8:5. For the law speaks of men being gods, for that is indeed the law of which Jesus professed what was written and cannot be broken.
Again, your cross references should tell you that, even bible hub makes mention of such references, yet you remain blind as a bat to such, yet have the audacity to speak of cross-references in another claim of yours. You are sure making yourself the one in the wrong here.
Also, Jesus and his disciples are one, so are true Christians, perhaps a read further in John, and a bit more in Colossians and Ephsians will reveal this simple fact to you, and even a few verses back from verse 30, Jesus speaks of the flock being one with the shepherd. Why ignore these and say on John 10:30? Hypocritical much?
2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:On another occasion, He used the personal name of Israel’s God–the name revealed to Moses (Exodus 3:14)–to refer to Himself. And He even used the Torah for context, so no one would misunderstand Him: “Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58). This would be about wild as telling a Muslim, “I am your God, Allah.” Don’t try that in Saudi Arabia! It’s no wonder the Jews tried to stone Him to death. That was the exact penalty for blasphemy under the Jewish legal system. It was pretty clear to everyone there that He was saying, “I am Israel’s God.”
So by your logic, a blind man is God also? (John 9:9) I AM, to be brief, is a common Greek saying, ego eimi means I exist, in Exodus its ego eimi ho on, meaning I am that I am/choose to become, ion Hebrew, it's eyeh asher eyeh.
There is no Torah context because outside of the Torah I AM or I AM HE/BEEN has been used. You are trying to make a claim that holds no foundation, you fail to explain context also.
Since you mentioned Muslims, they know the context very very well, even one of them who is clearly not a fan of Christians, Hamza Myatt, the Lion of Speaker's Corner. Muslims have something big in common with Christians, they recognize the law of which Jesus professed as a child, which can be seen in sura 112, whereas the verse itself in the bible is in the Torah. They also recognize the difference in I AM (ego eimi) and I AM THAT I AM (eog eimi ho on).
Jesus wouldn't be addressing he is the God of Israel, if a Jew who profess the law, Jesus, recognized what the law is, how can you call him a God? This is what Galatians 4:4 says what it says.
God himself is bounded by no law or Law Covenant.
As for blasphemy, I suggest you read and understand what Leviticus 24:16, Matthew 9:2,3 and Matthew 26:64, 65 even says and understand what it means.
2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."
Clearly you cannot see for you are blind, and your disdain for a group makes you a broken man
Already addressed
https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/57385-john-2028-my-lord-and-my-god/
2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:Collossians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."
God dwells in True Christians also, for such ones are also one with God as well as with the Christ
Colossians 2:10, Ephesians 1:20, 21 and 1 Peter 3:22
2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:Why Jesus is God? The Apostle Thomas called Jesus God.John 20:27-29: 2. The Apostle Peter called Jesus God.2 Peter 1:1: 3.The Apostle John called Jesus God.John 1:1-3, 4.God the Father called Jesus God.Hebrews 1:8: 5. God the Father called Jesus God. 6.Isaiah the Prophet said the Messiah would be God.Isaiah 9:67. The Jews who crucified Jesus understood Him to be saying that He was equal with God.John 5:18: 8.Jesus called Himself "I AM", the Old Testament name for God (Exodus 3:14).John 8:58-59. 9.Jesus calls Himself "the Alpha and Omega," the title of Almighty God.Revelation 22:12-13. 10. Like God (Gen. 1:1) Jesus created.Colossians 1:16-1711. Like God, Jesus forgives sin.Mark 2:5-7, 10-11:12. Like God, Jesus gives eternal life.John 10:27-28: 13. Like God, Jesus received, receives and will receive worship.Matthew 14:32-33. 14. Jesus said that only God was good; and Jesus was good. John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."Jesus was as good as they come. He was "sinless," "holy," "righteous," "innocent," "undefiled," and "separate from sinners." (Hebrews 7:26) That's pretty good! 15. Like God, Jesus can be present in more than one place at the same time.Matthew 18:20: 16. One of Jesus' titles is "God with us."Matthew 1:23. 17. Jesus' blood is called God's blood.Acts 20:28: 18. Jesus has the same nature as God.Hebrews 1:3a: 19. Jesus spoke as God.Jesus did not speak as one of God's prophets: "thus says the Lord," but as God: "I say to you."Matthew 5:27-29. 20. Like God (Psalm 136:3), Jesus is called the Lord of Lords and King of kings.Revelation 17:14. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. ( WHEN WAS GOD PIERCED? ). And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel (means God Among Us).
Addressed Thomas already 2 Peter 1:1-3 "God of". Peter's testimony further proves he recognize Jesus is God's Son, the clearest of them all is seen in Matthew 16. What kills your claim is what he addressed in 1 Peter 1:3, he identifies the Father as the only God.
You use that other verse in question because it reads out "knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord," the irony is further down the chapter, we know Peter was a witness on that mountain when Jesus transfigured and God spoke, he even, again identifies God as the Father in the same chapter, verse 17.
And it seems you like to Westernize the word proskuneos. David was worshiped by his servants, does not make him God, so was angels when they met Lot. The bible makes it clear total servitude and religious worship is for God and He alone, any worship by means of honor and respect is not religious worship.
You revealed yourself to be an Arian, who is in favor of Jesus religious worship instead of God the Father, who do you think his anger is going to blaze towards for a man who breaks God's Law?
God's blood? You do realize God is incorruptible right? Your credibility just put on a cape and flew out the window, friend.
You also have many errors in this response, and the obvious copy and paste nonsense you are spreading.
Therefore, a dog who barks, and does not bite, is not a dog at all.
2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:John 1:1 "Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος ", "En archē ēn ho Logos kai ho Logos ēn pros ton Theon kai Theos ēn ho Logos", "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word"
Deu. 18:18
Also comparing theon and theos on I see? θεόν (THEON) is clearly different from θεὸς (THEOS)
2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
You shot yourself in the foot just now: as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."
Cracks on the boat, yeah?
2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:John 10:33 "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."
Read what was addressed.
Do you not know what was written of which Jesus speaks of? Verses down he says both the scriptures cannot be broken, same goes for what is written, and he reveals to us he is God's Son. Take into account the cross references to because since you brought it up, start using them.
2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:Matthew 4:10 "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." Crossreference with Matthew 2:2, Matthew 2:11, Matthew 28:9.
Actually the cross references make a direct point tot he LAW itself, Jesus quoted what was WRITTEN, anything WRITTEN derives from the LAW, this can be found in Deu. 5:9 for religious worship of God the Father, 6:13 of the Shema Law, Deu. 10:20 religious servitude. You claim to know Jesus but fail to realize "what is written and what is foretold" comes from that of the Law itself and the Old Testament?
That is very telling you that you fail to realize that. That just shows you copy and paste but spare no time to read. How do you claim faith if you fail to recognize what "it is written" means?
2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Crossreference with Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he." and Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
Addressed Isaiah 44:6. Also it points to Revelations 22:13 and several verses in Isaiah. Revelations 1:17, Jesus is the first and the last of the new creation that consist of the new heavens and earth, in addition to those who make up the Spiritual House, God even presents the bride, the chosen 144,000, to the Lamb. God is the first and the last regarding Adam and Eve and everything after that prior to Christ's death and the authority and power he gave to the Christ, his Son.
Revelations 1:8 is God the Father, we get more information on several verses such as Exodus 6:3, that even makes a direct reference to the Father himself.
El Shaddai, the one and True Elohim, is always the Father, Abba.
2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:John 8:24 "eipon oun hymin hoti apothaneisthe en tais hamartiais hymōn ean gar mē pisteusēte hoti egō eimi apothaneisthe en tais hamartiais hymōn" - I said therefore to you that you will die in the sins of you if indeed not you believe that I am you will die in the sins of you
Clearly you do not grasp that this ONE Jesus speaks of, is the Father,perhaps you should read further down that verse. Again, G\The Father here is identified as God, you shot yourself in the foot, another time.
As for the rest of your claims, half of them I addressed in the past, and it is the same Trinitarian nonsense that I see from such ones like you, such ones in Hyde, such ones in the US, such ones in the EU, such ones in Dubai, such ones in the Middle East, like I say here, I've been around and I know quite a lot.
Everything else here and what you addressed afterwards have already been disproved, but a clear copy and paste coming from you is and will not help your resolve.
A man who does not know what Jesus professed in regards to the law is a lost man, blind even. You pasted a verse that you didn't explain that Jesus holds to high importance regarding the law, which in itself, kills any claim you make about him being God, ironically.
Therefore the errors and twisting of of verses can be seen from a mile away.
That being said, you claim to know the Christ and say others deny him, yet you fail to recognize even the most basic thing every man knows Jesus for, to quote what is written, if you got that wrong out of your bag of errors, you've proven yourself to be not as credible as you claim.
Just another typical mainstream who happens to cross paths with me, one who lacks biblical hermeneutics.
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27 minutes ago, Jesus.defender said:
JW's DENY Jesus, DENY the Holy Spirit, DENY hell and DENY the cross.
JWs adhere to the teachings of Jesus, they do not believe Jesus is God for there is a clear distinction between God the Father (Yahweh/Jehovah) and Jesus, who is the Son of God. Is it hypocrisy if one, such as yourself, speak ill of another man who does the work of spreading the good news gospel, yet you do not adhere to command and commission? The answer is clear.
Clearly you do not have the Holy Spirit because of what you just posted breaks a very clear quality of what a Christian must profess, but you read the bible don't you? This should be very evident to you and we know what Jesus says about those who do not adhere to the law (Matthew 7:23), especially to someone such a s yourself who have no idea of what the Law of which every True Christians is bounded to.
They deny Hell because Hell isn't the lake of Fire, in fact, even bible translation makes this point clear, example, Revelations 20:14
And death and hell [hades] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
So riddle me this? If Hell is the Lake of Fire, how can you cast Hell in Hell? See how silly that sounds? and Any man who knows God, can go to the Hebrew Old Testament and see for themselves in the Torah an the Laws, that God the Father is not a fan of Fire Torment, this practice was done by Molech Worshipers and Sorcerers who toss their sons and daughters into the burning fire - alive. God even stated such a thing would never cross his mind, so I ask you, you seem to get your giggles and delight out of eternal fire torment of people, ask yourself, if such a thing never crossed God's mind to begin with, why practice it? Of whom do you serve and to whom is your master? God the Father or Molech? You can't teach love with Fire Torment, playing with fire is bad.
They do not believe in the cross because the original form of the word was Stauros, meaning a pole or a stake (tree sticking up perhaps), the cross was a very late addition into Christianity, and the clue of the whole pole/stake situation we can look at Maryas, of which predates Jesus.
2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:Titus 3:5-7 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."
Eph. 2:8-9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Gal. 2:16 "a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus"
Acts 4:12. "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”
Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Quote yet no explanation. A dog who barks but does not bite, is no dog at all. You also make a small misstep on your part here.
2 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:Just believing in someone named "Jesus" means nothing unless we are talking about the Jesus Christ of the Bible. The one, eternal, everlasting, uncreated God. The one who created ALL things. It is like if you know someone called "bob" and i know another person called "bob". Now, can we have a conversation about "bob" without defining WHO we are talking about? No.
The mormon, Jehovahs Witness, Seventh Day Adventist, UPCI, etc. "Jesus" is NOT the Jesus Christ of the Bible.
Jesus didn't create everything, nor did he come on his own, nor did he consider himself to be God or equal to him. Your explain is weak and your claim is flawed.
- Mormons do not preach the good news gospel, they believe they can be equal to God, they also believe God himself actually had intercourse with virgin Mary, they also only adhere to the book of Mormon and hold a strong view in polygamy and child marriage.
- JWs, are Restorationist, nuff said. Hardcore Bible pressed also, meaning stick to what the bible says, always.
- SDA believe in the Trinity, so technically, they are JWs who accept the Trinity. They also believe being part of the nation to fight for a cause.
Clearly you do not read the bible very much, unless you are here to troll, it can easily be seen.
Your picture show holds no foundation also. therefore, your spirit has been tested, 1 John 4:1.
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2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:
ctr is rejected in modern jws/wt and is considered "old light", however the actions of both are very similar.
You'll have to quote CTR then. One thing for certain, of which you quote it has to be deemed true, otherwise I have to pay a visit to ol' Res L who is well aware of who CTR is and has 55 year worth of information on the man, and he defends him.
2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:Now if you are saying that religious leaders are to lead the collective body, I have no disagreement, but the actions of those leaders are what I would consider something to inspect.
Like I said, they are Restorationist, they do whatever it means to stick to scripture, no matter what, hence they stem away from mainstream Christianity itself. For over time, they learn and apply. I believe I made some mention to something of the like in the Christmas response you make a while back, for what they use to do, they learn, and they abandon and or stop doing something that is no longer required and or they act upon what they know by means of scripture, just as what those have done who predates JWs, as well as many denominations that are out there.
Such ones in their current state, anything that is not of the church is accursed, and I made mention before about interfaith and expelling, for if you spread interfaith in their community, you will be removed.
But what is there to expect what is already known? Moreover, why do we take one sided response over a faithful member of said faith? But history tends to repeat itself.
But, it would be a big problem if the religious leaders did not do what the bible teaches, what God's Laws is all about, and today, regarding God's Laws, people want this faith in particular to abandon some laws and copy the mainstream churches of Christendom, when it is known Restorationist, be it a group or an individual, do not adhere to mainstream Christianity at all.
2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:The inspection should be done on a personal level and not by the collective group following the leader, so that ones who do not agree with the practices of said leader are free to deviate without repercussion.
This would be the case, but religious leaders, even in bible times tend to speak for the flock, be is they themselves or as a collective group, even in the New Testament, example, Paul and Barnabas to those in Antioch, another would be Paul addressing issues in the church congregations, hence the epistles sent to these groups, in a sense they provide example, guidance and direction.
As for agreeing or disagreeing with practices, it is clear that anything outside of the professed faith is on the grounds of interfaith spreading, so if one claims to have found the Christ and show a total disregard to who the Father is, or speak of something not practice by the faith, you can be expelled from the church. It is known, even outside of the JW faith that anything Interfaith and or against practices and or teachings, i.e. same sex-marriage, abortion, military service and you are a current member, such will get you expelled, the same goes for faith bashing, Christian Infighting and a list of other things.
The same thing applies to outside of religion in general, any conduct that is not of the culture or practices of a person and or people, they will deal with you of how they see fit, in the US, it is the typical kick you out response, sometimes physically.
3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:My example of this is those who were called Pharisees, religious leaders of the time, but far from the mark. The repercussion involved in deviation from their leadership resulted in death. now that is not exactly the case today, but it kinda is.
You'll have to quote the verse in context because there has been a lot of Pharisees, some of them, like Nicodemus, were expelled from their position, even martyred, for clearly Nicodemus made himself known when Jesus was no more, even before that, when Jesus was alive, he had to visit Jesus during the night. One also recognizes those who remove themselves from anything accursed and go on to learn what the truth is, again I bring up Nicodemus because not only he is mentioned solely in the Gospel of John, but he was involved in one of the most unique conversation (Being Born Again) that Jesus ever had, be it, only him and Nicodemus was speaking, the same man also played a role in Jesus' burial.
To some degree, it is the still like this but to an extreme, Christians have been killed for professing what is true. The whole well incident several weeks back, those were Christians down there, and clearly, the people who did that, didn't like their not radicalized belief, elsewhere, we have those who tend to go at it physically when they claim Jesus is God and anyone who is not for that sort of teaching is not saved, at times, such ones inflict injury to those who do not, even to people who have no idea what a bible is or what it says. Screaming in Synagogues and saying outlandish things by twisting verses will not help anyone's case, and this enabled such ones to teach an accursed doctrine, example homosexual churches now have the guns by means of scripture to try and belittle you.
So in a sense, it is a mixed bag of M&M'sand Skittles when it comes to true teachers and false teachers, for the false ones tend to out number the true ones.
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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:
That still doesn't address the belief of jw's that unless you are a jw you will not be saved. QE mentioned that if one parent/guardian were a jw then the kids are safe, my point was that those kids who do not have a jw parent/guardian (according to jw beliefs) are burnt hotdogs.
It does not matter if one is a Jehovah's Witnesses or not a Jehovah's Witnesses, especially when one is able to know and identify which branch of Christianity they stem from, example, they are Restorationist because they take the bible in total seriousness, everything they teach and address comes from the bible, even their publications. Their Christology is Non-Trinitarian, that speaks for itself, and any man who has studied not just the bible, but Christianity's history, the very root they originate from, the Apostolic Age, sola scriptura, etc.
According to their Theology and practice, they believe all men, women and children can be saved, which is in fact true, hence what the bible speaks of, for God want all kinds of people to be saved and he knows who is for him, those who make the attempt and because of his justice, those who do not, they perish. What JW opponents fail to realize is that those who have JW parents if not a JW anymore and speak ill of the bible and ill of the faith, then that puts you in line for what is to come, on the other side of the spectrum, those who are no longer JW, however still maintain a total respect to the parents who follow the faith, at the same time, such ones still believe that God is indeed true and what his Son had taught is indeed true, as well as coming to a common ground with their JW parents, the irony is, both former JW groups are present, but the ones who go about attacking the faith, also attack those who, also former JWs, who still maintain a defense of what the bible says, at the same time, defend the faith of those in their former faith, and clearly, some of us, even God can see this himself, this is why I brought up before that a man who is totally neutral with JWs defended them and only those JWs deem real apostates, those who bash the faith and scriptures and act out in totally hypocrisy, attack such a man. This was the case with some punk rocker, young man, who, former JW, defended the faith even though he is no longer a JW, he even addressed that his moral code was because of his former faith, and the only reason he left was due to just wanting to do his own thing, but still maintains family ties because he, makes the effort to meet his family and he does not bash them for what they believe every second. If I still have access to the thread I had elsewhere, I can bring this up.
So the so called, "hotdogs" that will be burning, are the ones who do not adhere to the teaches, preach against God's Law, and clearly those who are against what the bible says. You fail to see that the whole JW opponent thing is clearly one sided, because everyone who is a former JW and defenses the faith are drowned out by the likes of real apostasy.
Understand this and know it and believe me, I have been around. I would have agreed with you if such people didn't exist, but they do. And clearly God sees the actions of such ones and they would go out like Korah and his comrades.
Speaking of Korah, the end time tribulations when things do kick of, it may be in similar fashion, but far greater than what we have seen in Numbers 16, only this time, there is a lot of things in the way than just a field and a temple.
At the end of the day, you do not have to like the faith group, but take into the example of what Bereans are, or that of John 4, Jesus, a Jew, to a Samaritan woman, or in another passage, the Samaritan Leper. Sometimes fir the minor things you have to be very careful of, for even minor things beget large consequence that cannot be reserved, the only reason why True Christians outside of the mainstream do not mess around with JWs, let alone run into JW churches and cause a disturbance.
That being said, I believe the JWs made it clear, based on the bible, of who will be saved, it is safe to also mention they also believe others can be saved too, even outside of their faith, as long as those on the outside accepts what the bible says. We also cannot be ignorant of the fact that there is indeed many, many places in the world where God is not known and no one knows who or what Jesus is, hence why the preaching exist, Thailand is a fine example of what I mention of majority of people, mainly farmlands, that do not know God, the Bible, etc.
Also just mention my name, my comments, tend to be long at times, so as long as I see my name or you use @ option below, I will see it.
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The Gospel of John
John 20:28
Thomas answered and said to him, "My Lord and My God."
The Trinitarian Claim
Mainstream Trinitarian Christians claim that Thomas himself is identifying Jesus as "God."
The Claim vs. The Facts
The facts that come straight from the very pages of the scriptures in the Bible shows us that Thomas was confessing what Jesus had taught him - to see Jesus is to see the Father (John 14:10-11; 12:44-45). That human flesh named Jesus declares the Father (John 1:18). In fact, the entire point of the Gospel of John is to illustrate how the man Jesus made God the Father known.
1. What Thomas finally believed: That Jesus, The Christ, had Risen from the Dead
The Trinitarian interpretation is based on the notion that Thomas took this opportunity to declare Jesus himself is his God. However, this interpretation defies the context itself. The account is not about Thomas doubting who Jesus was but whether Jesus was alive from the dead. Thomas had doubted his Lord's resurrection and declared he would not believe he had risen until he had seen Jesus for himself.
We can see this clearly when we read in the bible, John 20:25:
- John 20:25 - So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.”
In John 20:27, Jesus tells Thomas to see the wounds in his hand and side proving that he was indeed risen from the dead:
- John 20:27 - Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.”
The following verse, 28 (John 20:28), we see Thomas' response to Jesus:
- John 20:28 - Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”
For Thomas' response to Jesus is based on finally believing that Jesus had indeed risen from the dead. Jesus then responds to Thomas:
- John 20:29 - Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
For Jesus was pretty much saying that Thomas was blessed to finally believe because he had seen him. Jesus' response refers to the fact that Thomas had finally believed he had risen from the dead. Trinitarians read John 20:29 as if Jesus is blessing Thomas for believing he is his God. However, the entire point of the passage is that Thomas had finally believed Jesus had risen from the dead. But as always, for some reason, this fact is completely lost on the entirety of the mainstream Christendom when they read the passage. They read John 20:29 as if Jesus blessed Thomas for declaring he is God when the entire point of the passage is that Thomas finally believed Jesus rose from the dead. This obvious disconnect is likely due to the fact that the typical Trinitarian has no idea why Thomas would say "My Lord and my God" in response to finally believing Jesus had risen from the dead. This very fact alone demonstrates they simply do not know what is going on or what such a passage even informs us about.
2. A Flawed Assumption
The Trinitarian interpretation of this passage is also based upon a very defective assumption that sits on no foundation, whatsoever. Trinitarians suppose that since Thomas said these words to Jesus, then he must have taken this opportunity to declare that Jesus is his God (my God). However, as the following passage demonstrates, this assumption is highly flawed.
Jesus Foretells His Death and Resurrection
Matthew 16:21-23
- (21) From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised. (22) And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying, “Far be it from you, Lord! This shall never happen to you.” (23) But he turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me. For you are not setting your mind on the things of God, but on the things of man.”
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If we interpreted the above passage in the very same manner as Trinitarians interpret John 20:28, we would then be required to conclude Peter is Satan himself. But this is obviously incorrect. Even though Jesus said these words directly to Peter, we know it does not mean Peter is Satan himself. Hence, we must inquire whether a similar situation may be taking place at John 20:28. The text says Thomas said these words to Jesus. It does not say that Thomas "called" Jesus "God."
3. The Surrounding Context
The immediate context militates against the Trinitarian claim. In the preceding context, Jesus describes his Father as his God and Mary's God rather than identifying himself as her God. The verse in question is John 20:17, for it says:
- John 20:17 - Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
In the following context, John indicates that he wrote this Gospel, including the account of Jesus and Thomas, not to tell us that Jesus is himself God but so that we might believe that Jesus is God's son:
- We have seen the Lord. (20:25).
- I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God. (20:17)
- These things have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the son of God and that believing you may have life in his name. (20:31).
The Trinitarian interpretation of verse 28 (John 20:28) disregards and defies these contextual facts of what is really being explained here.
4. The Significance of the Greek Grammar
Thomas literally said to Jesus, "the Lord of me and the God of me." Now if Thomas had said, "the Lord and God of me," the Trinitarian claim would carry much more weight. The latter statement would be the kind of language you would normally use in Greek to refer to one person as both your Lord and your God. But this is not the language Thomas used. He used a language convention which Greek speakers would use when they wanted to refer to two persons, "the Lord of me and the God of me."  Verse 17 (John 20:17) is also highly significant here. Jesus says he will ascend to "the Father of you and Father of me and God of you and God of me." This is the kind of language a Greek speaker would use if he wanted to refer to just one person. He did not say he will ascend to, "the Father of you and the Father of me and the God of you and the God of me." This fact tells us that John was definitively selective about his language structures and would use the verse 17 language structure when he wanted to refer to one person. John did not use this one person language structure when he wrote John 20:28. He does not record Thomas as saying, "the Lord and God of me." Rather, he used the language structure used by Greek speakers to refer to two persons, "the Lord of me and the God of me." Additionally, it is also significant that Thomas did not say, "the Lord and the God of me." Rather, he said, "the Lord of me and the God of of me."  We can take into example and compare the following two verses that will be listed below. If the first verse below refers to two persons, the second verse is very evident as to which structure has been used:  - This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. (1 Jn. 2:22)
- Thomas answered and said to him, "the Lord of me and the God of me." (Jn. 20:28)
 However, this language structure is occasionally used in Scripture when referring to one person. For example, it is sometimes used to draw a distinction between two different roles that one person might serve (see John 13:13-14). So even though this is the language construction used by Greek speakers to refer to more two persons, this fact alone does not make it certain. Therefore, we must ask ourselves if there is additional information in our Bible which demonstrates Thomas was referring to two persons. And the answer to that question is, "Yes, there is additional information in the Scriptures which demonstrates that Thomas was referring to two persons."  4. Thomas' God IS Jesus Christ's God  Trinitarians seem to be completely blind and or remaining ignorant of what is actucally in front of them when it comes to the fact that any mention of the true God is necessarily a reference to Jesus Christ's God. This is inescapable since there is only one God. So when Thomas says, "my God" he is necessarily referring to Jesus Christ's God, that is, the Father.  I ascend to my Father and your Father and my God and your God.  Thomas is necessarily referring to Jesus Christ's God when he says "my God" is inescapable since there is only one God. And indeed, Jesus had just affirmed this fact at John 20:17. Therefore, Thomas is necessarily referring to the Father. And that fact speaks directly to what the entire Gospel of John is about.  5. The Holy Spirit Proceeds from THE FATHER  At John 20:28, Jesus had risen from the dead but Thomas would not believe this unless he had seen Jesus for himself. Now, carefully compare these verses:  - John 15:26 - But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.
- John 20:21-22 - (21) Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” (22) And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
- John 14:20 -Â In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you. (see 14:9-11)
 Jesus breathed the Spirit out from himself yet he already promised them that it would be the Spirit which proceeds from THE FATHER. "In that day, you will know..." Thomas knew. Jesus was in the Father and the Father was in Jesus.  Analysis of the Facts Â
 1. The Context: Seeing and Believing  But Thomas called, Didymus (Didymus which means "the twin", also a surname of the Apostle Thomas), one of the 12, was not with them when Jesus came. So the other disciples said to him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.” After 8 days his disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in their midst and said, “Peace be with you.” Then he said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see my hands and reach here and put your hand into my side and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” Thomas answered and said to him, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are they who do not see, and yet believe.” John 20:24-29  - John 20:24-29 - (24) Now Thomas, one of the twelve, called the Twin, was not with them when Jesus came. (25) So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.” (26) Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” (27) Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.” (28) Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” (29) Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
 The context of John 20:28 involves the theme of seeing and believing. The risen Jesus had already appeared to the disciples but Thomas was not present. So when they declared they had seen Jesus, Thomas declared he would not believe Jesus had risen until he had seen Jesus for himself complete with the wounds in his hands and side. Jesus then appeared to Thomas and said, "Reach here with your finger, and see my hands, and reach here your hand and put it into my side, and do not be unbelieving, but believing." And after Thomas responded to him, Jesus responds back to Thomas, "Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are they who do not see, and yet believe." It is quite clear that seeing and believing is the point of this account.  2. Seeing and Believing: What Jesus had taught Thomas and the disciples Â
 In the Gospel of John, Jesus informs his disciples that he is going away and they become very troubled. But he tells them not to be troubled for they know they way. But they are still confused so Jesus explains:  And you know the way where I am going.” Thomas said to him, "Lord, we do not know where you are going, how do we know the way?” Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through me. If you had known me, you would have known my Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us." Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father."  The context of John 20:28 is seeing and believing. Jesus had taught Thomas and his disciples about seeing and believing. To see Jesus was not to see just one person but two persons:  - (1) Jesus their Lord, and
- (2) their God and Father
 Jesus also explained to them precisely how they had seen the Father. In the next breath, Jesus said, "the Father abiding in me does the works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, otherwise believe because of the works themselves." (John 14:10-11). At John 12:44-45, Jesus made a similar declaration to the Jews where he said that to see/believe him was to see/believe the One who sent him. To know Jesus was to know the Father; to believe in Jesus was to believe in the Father; to see Jesus was to see the Father. This is because Jesus was sent by the Father to speak and do works in his Father's name. And even more so, it was the Father abiding in him that did the works. In this way, Jesus was the Father's Word of Truth. And in this way, Jesus explains, they had seen the Father when they had seen Jesus.  At John 1:18, John tells us that no one has ever seen God but the only begotten in the bosom of the Father declares/explains HIM. This is precisely what Jesus is talking about in chapter 14 in the Gospel of John when he teaches his disciples about seeing and believing. To see Jesus is to see the Father. To see Jesus is to see not just one person but two persons. QuoteJesus Teaches about Seeing and Believing Verse Jesus  The Father John 12:44 He who BELIEVES in ME also [BELIEVES] in HIM who sent me. John 12:45 He who SEES ME also SEES HIM who sent me John 14:9 He who has SEEN ME also has SEEN THE FATHER. John 20:28 my Lord and my God. The text says Thomas said these words to Jesus. The text does not say that Thomas "called" Jesus "God." Why then would Thomas say these words to Jesus? We are explicitly told why by Jesus in the Gospel of John. To see Jesus was to see someone else: his Father. To see Jesus was to see not just one person but two. And that is precisely what Thomas is confessing at John 20:28.
3. In that Day you will know Â
 Carefully compare these two teachings from Jesus:  - John 14:9-10 - (9) Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? (10) Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
- John 14:20 -Â In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.
 Jesus is telling us disciples that they would fully realize the truth of this matter "on that Day." That day is when he rose from the dead. "After a little while the world will no longer see me, but you will see me; because I live, you will live also. In that day you will know I am in my Father. (14:19-20). He also taught them that the Spirit would remind them of everything he had just taught them (14:26). On that Day, the disciples would know that Jesus was in the Father.  And again, Jesus had breathed the Spirit into his disciples, that same Spirit which he said proceeds from THE FATHER and which he would send to them. This happened because he was raised in the Spirit and glory of the Father when God raised him from the dead. The Lord IS the Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17; 1 Cor. 14:45) and for that reason, he could breathe the Spirit out from himself, the Spirit that proceeds from the Father.  When we put all these facts together, the answer is clear, undeniable and very understandable. To see Jesus is to see the Father. To see Jesus was to see two persons, Jesus and the Father. Jesus taught Thomas and the disciples that they would know in that Day that Jesus was in the Father. The reason for Thomas' words is clearly explained in the Scriptures in this selfsame Gospel of John.  Conclusion Â
 Since there is only one God, Thomas was necessarily referring to Jesus Christ's God when he said, "my God." When all the evidence is put before us, there is simply no doubt that Thomas was affirming Jesus' earlier teaching to him, that to see and believe in Jesus was to see and believe in the Father, the God of Jesus, the God of Thomas (20:17). Jesus himself tells us in this Gospel that he declared/explained the Father in terms of everything he said and did. John tells us the same thing - Jesus came so that we might know the Father, the true God (1 John 5:20). He is the Way to the Father and through Him we know the Father. Jesus explained that they saw the Father when they saw Jesus because the Father abiding in him did the works (14:9-10). How much more then was the Father abiding in that dead body which had the Father had risen from the dead by the power of His Holy Spirit which proceeds from THE FATHER and which Jesus breathed into his disciples (see 20:21-22). Since seeing Jesus meant seeing the Father, Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God. Thomas is confessing what the entire Gospel of John is about. Jesus made the Father known to the people of the world. The only begotten declares/explains the Father. For that reason, to see Jesus is to see the Father. To see the Lord Jesus is to see the Father, our God, and Jesus Christ's God.  John 20:29 - Blessed are you Thomas. Because you have seen, you have believed.  John 12:44-45 - (44) And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me. (45) And whoever sees me sees him who sent me.  John 20:28 - My Lord and my God. -
49 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:
Manna and worms......
This observation of the very foundation of the jw religion today is very relevant and should be to all jws. The thinking of CTR is still very much the thinking of the gb. Just as JW Insider stated, CTR established himself as the supreme authority, God's mouthpiece, so too do the gb and their attitudes towards the R&F. How can you publish something like 'just do what we say, no matter if you think it is crazy from a human logical standpoint', and not see the parallels?
Cognitive dissonance, that's how.
You do realize how religious leaders position were in scripture? perhaps those who lead, speak and give insight to the tribes they lead? It is not outlandish for Jehovah's Witnesses to have religious leaders. As it was said by the Son of Man, in context, one shepherd to one flock, such ones together in Christ, as one, and such ones adhere to the teachings and learn of God the Father accordingly, such ones do not tolerance interfaith teachings that are clearly not of the church, let alone such ones do not take in the traditions of man into the church, I believe I mentioned something along the lines before.
Also it is worth to note that even those who do not agree with JWs, they agree with CTR, on the other side of the spectrum, there is hypocrisy though coming from the non-religious camps.
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On 6/17/2018 at 10:27 PM, Queen Esther said:
And NOT forget @Matthew9969.... Babies and little children are holy through their JW parents ! ONE is enogh - Mom or Dad....
First after Jehova's DAY - the end of the 1000 years, then we perhaps know the exactly count of all JW....  But thats not really relevant, bec. we can hope, reaching our last goal, the paradise... ONLY Jehovah is knowing the JW count. I'm NOT interested, I would be more happy for SO much other things, they are coming now
Yes. Jesus did say the path is very narrow, as I said before to others here, God knows who is for him, mainly those who take total seriousness in what His Word means, and what he has enabled his prophets, including his Son, to make known to us.
For this is why, according to Paul, we thank God the Father for our Lord Jesus Christ, for clearly accurate truth allows us to see and be prepared of what is to come, especially when it comes to obstacles to the very goal we are aiming for, hence we endure and remain vigilant.
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On 6/17/2018 at 11:04 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:
I have a question for Space Merchant.
Why wear that clumsy white Star Wars armor?
It only seems to make you run like a girl balancing oranges, appears to be no protection whatsoever, even against hand weapons, and impairs your aim so you cannot hit someone directly in front of you ?
I mean .....
What with THAT!
The storm trooper avatar of mine is due to someone I know, was an avid star wars fan when he was alive, he always dressed up as a storm trooper many many times even at random, and my avatars elsewhere is the same thing, it poses as a reminder for all my avatars is storm trooper related. Compared to me, my friend was not as bible savvy, but he always did like learning of what the scriptures say for the both of us were not fans of the badness taking place in the world, moreover, he was not the fastest learner when it came to this stuff, for back then, he wanted me to explain Revelations when he went into it randomly, at the time, I had no idea and was very confused with Revelations, but today, I am well aware of what it means, hence when I began learning the bible even more, I started from Revelations and read to Genesis.
But yeah, as clumsy as storm troopers are, they tend to be a reminder of something for some people, for me, anything related to storm troopers poses as a reminder for me.
Unlike storm troopers though, when I aim with scripture, it always hits, sometimes it hits rather way too well to the point it tends to surprise me and I am not the type of person to be surprised easily either. My laser fire is truth, the truth is the scriptures.
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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:
But not all of them right? I mean the ones without jw parents are toast correct? As Tony Morris said "like human hotdogs"
The righteous and the meek, those who adhere to faith and salvation and of course the works, recognizing God's grace by means of his Son, knows what the New Covenant entails, such ones who profess what the bible tells us, are the only ones who will survive the Great day of God, Judgement Day for we do not know the day or the hour, and Jesus does not know but it is very certain he will be coming with a Sword in hand and a legion of angels that technically consist and or is God's army, will follow. We surely we know what Angels are capable of, we haven't seen what the the Exalted Jesus Christ can do other read a glimpse of him, with the angels following him, cast Satan and his Demons out of Heaven in a Great Battle, as seen in Revelations. One can only imagine how this will go down on earth, perhaps it would be very critical in levels perhaps surpassing cataclysmic proportions.
Those who do not adhere to such, those who break God's Law, those who do not recognize who God is or his Son, as well as the teachings of which they do not follow, those who teach an accursed doctrine or teach an Angel has taught them when the bible says not even to take direction from an angel that was clearly not sent by God, those who do not do the works and think once saved always saved, those who blasphemy the Holy Spirit (a big mistake anyone can make and surely regret), will not really be able to inherit God's Kingdom.
So therefore, like what you quoted, like human hotdogs, if you want an more explicit example, like tossing a raw chicken into the mouth of a volcano, and it will be far worse than Sodom and Gomorrah, far worse than those who were deemed cursed, far worse than in Noah's Day.
JW or not, if you do not adhere to the teaches, the 2 options that are available, Life and Death, it will be obvious of which one who does not listen will fall into. As harsh it may sound, this is the truth, for there is Life and Death before us, there is no middle ground, either you are for Life or you will simply perish and be brought to nothing and be made, no mores if you never existed to begin with, that my friend, is the second death, for everlasting destruction pretty much means you cease to exist.
People tend to think it is all fun and games, candy and rainbows, but this is indeed, very serious, and to not take such seriously, makes one like a child who does not understand of what is being said or what is to come, for mentally, majority of folks to not take the bible seriously and should they do take is seriously, they tend to be the very people who end up being persecuted, such ones who profess what the bible says, not even death will shake their faith, which seems to be the case in the Middle East and other parts of the world.
Note: I remember someone elsewhere on a Christian fourm posted this to prove a point. She wasn't wrong.
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21 minutes ago, Anna said:
Know the difference between counterfeit Christians and true Christians. It's not a new teaching. The scriptures warn about this and give clear identifying marks to help distinguish the two.
Seconded. We have to recognize the weeds in the wheat, you can't leave them to continue to grow and spread, it will only cause problems, thus a correction is demanded.
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21 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:
It was a common saying in our home growing up, 'those Christians are demons'. And when you think about it, I don't think the watchtower has ever had anything to say about Christians other than they serve satan.
On the contrary, it would be known to you that those who call themselves Christians tend to lead a double life, as do those in most Churches in America. Women tend to go to churches in seductive clothing yet at the end of the day, they hold conviction to being Christian, as do some who do other vile things,for instance, an example I can bring young ones tend not to pay attention to what the bible says yet turn a cheek to do something differently, another case where during a sermon, you have teens who talk about things not of the church, even vile things like if they had drank alcohol, if they had intercourse with so and so, and things of that nature. This is what will prompt Christians who follow the bible to raise concern of Christians who do not.
I know most Christians, even JW Christians will say something of those who do not follow the bible, for the conduct of one who claims to be a Christian, conduct that is brazen or negative, of course one will call this out. Like what you have stated, those Christians are demons, that is a new one, never heard of it, most sincere Christians will clearly bring up misguidance and clear ignorance of biblical application.
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@Gone Away One thing for certain, such ones tend to bring late scholars and teachers to make a point, this is the case with the whole Speaker's Corner thing in the UK.
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On 6/15/2018 at 8:48 AM, Matthew9969 said:
And talk about counterfeit Christians....it was the jw's who used to believe the word 'Christian' was a demonically inspired word, not they call themselves Christians...who are the counterfeit Christians then?
It's not just JWs who thought of this in the past, there was someone who made mentioned to this before.
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13 hours ago, Cos said:
It becomes quite amusing how a well known Trinitarian, the Reverend John Skinner, is quoted with approval because it is thought he somehow supports the false idea that the Holy Spirit is not a Person.
Okay, but it should be very evident on how Trinitarian scholars, professors, such as David Wood, James White, Jay Smith, as do others today and of old share the same conclusions, that being said, it is no surprise they will speak of such ones before their time, even the ones who defend and accept the TR (Textus Receptus)/JC (Johannine Comma) when the original manuscript evidence says otherwise. As stated before, the truth shall set you free.
As for the rest of your comment, such things have already been addressed, no need for the evident repeat, example, modified neuter Greek forms regarding masculine/feminine, which also applies to John chapter 14 and 16, and examples were also given, so to repeat something is not going to do much to help your case, especially when anyone can go a few pages back, for last it was recalled by you that your Greek was called into question, hence why the response was even made to begin with, I even gave you links to learn the basics of the Greek Language as well as the gender forms and neuter words which can be modified and the like, and such is implied in 14 and 16 due to knowing who the speaker is, Jesus (male) speaks of the Spirit (neutered), since the one is speaking is male, most of the time the neutered word becomes masculine, thus making Spirit (neutered) modified (neutered-masculine), hence why the Spirit is referred to as a He or Him, the same is also applied to places and or things, evident in the four gospel accounts and throughout the Greek New Testament, the Hebrew Old Testament does not show away from this principle of language as well, albeit more complex that the Greek however.
I believe the other verses have also been addressed also, in addition to cross-references. as for verse 34, it would have been wise to check out Hebrews 7:25 and 1 John 2:1. As for verse 27, Jesus told His followers that the Holy Spirit, which the Father would send to them, “will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you” as seen in John 14:26.
- But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
It is through God’s Spirit that abides in us that we gain spiritual insight as well as understanding. Therefore, we come to receive what is stated in 1 Corinthians 2:16, the very “mind of Christ”
- “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
which in itself is a direct reference to as the “mind of the Spirit” as seen in Romans 8:27, which is connected with Romans 15:5.
- May the God of endurance and encouragement grant you to live in such harmony with one another, in accord with Christ Jesus,
Clearly, Jesus Christ had this spiritual comprehension in great abundance. For since he is the Messiah, He was prophesied to have such Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord as seen in Isaiah 11:2.
- And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.
Surely everyone here agrees with what Isaiah, a prophet of God, on what he had address about the one who is coming, the prophet of which God had spoken of prior to Adam and Eve's disobedience, the very one who is deemed the Seed, Promised Abrahamic Seed, the very one of which in the Hebrew Test, Torah, that God will put His Word in this prophets, mouth. And we know who this flesh, this man, is and this very same man who is also the prophet, a messenger of God, is the very one to speak the very Words of God, hence why such a man is called the Word.
As stated before, such things have been talked about on this same thread before, pages back, and the response is the same.
It is also worth to mention, as stated before, it is not the best idea to use Paul, Peter or John the Baptist, when they clearly identity the only true God as the Father, or the fact that 1 of the 3 men affirmed a law that even address the Father as being the one True God, the very same one as to where Jesus spoke with the scribes.
Another thing to note is God is the only God and there is no one equal to or above him, for God himself have stated
Book of Isaiah
- 45:5 - I am the LORD [YHWH], and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me,
- 46:9 - remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me,
(these are but 2 out of several verses pertaining to such)
We know the Father is the only God, and clearly the Son is not the Father nor the Spirit, for we know in the scriptures itself, the supposedly person, Holy Spirit, never made any claim nor does it know the day or hour, so has the Son, Jesus, has never made any claim of being God, for it is evident in scripture he refers to God as his Father, several times even calling the Father, God, even as a child, young Jesus recognized who his Father is for by Law, every born Jew, regardless of their sex (males were obviously circumcised after sometime and young ones were indeed taken to God's Temple), recite, profess, learn and read of their God in the Old Testament, and recognizes that the God of Israel is their Father.
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14 hours ago, TheWorldNewsOrg said:
That is big news, but on some areas of the world, die-hard comic book hands, specifically those who are for DC comics, are crying their eyes out right now, elsewhere in the world, some guy is just worried about his shows, while everyone else is trying to be like Netflix. Stuff like this can be positive and or negative for some people, especially in companies like this when people being replaced/removed from their original jobs.
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@Cos This is exactly what I stated time and time again, you repeat yourself over and over, yet Paul, Peter, and even John's Testimony speaks more truth than that of Trinitarian perspective, not to mention you throw people who share your own views under the bus.
It still stances, you are, indeed, misguided, for even if truth is put before you like a life saving medicine, you deny it. I already spoke about John 14 and 16, yet you use it again, thus what I said before, you do not know the Greek Language.
You can continue to ramble about with the same thing you have mentioned before, it will not help you and you should know by now there are more out there who can see through the lies the Trinitarians spout, namely things such as the justification of 1 John 5:7 and many more, even 1 Timothy 3:16. People are starting to see the truth.
What you have mentioned had already been addressed in previous responses anyways. If you claim the Holy Spirit is a Person and or a God you have to address the question that was asked of you multiple times, to which you evaded.
And Peter himself makes it clear, John and Paul also, the Father of Jesus Christ is indeed God, who is Their Father, Jesus' Father, My Father, and your Father, for Jesus himself wants us to know who he and take in the word of which God enabled Jesus to speak to the people.
Lastly, I left out a very strong verse from Revelations on purpose because most Trinitarians cannot handle such truth that reveals the many contradictions of their claims. So therefore, you cannot prove the Holy Spirit is a person, and no one called it a "thing", I will repeat myself for like the 4th time, in the other post, the description of what the Holy Spirit is, with literal verses to support such, but like I said, you ignore because you adhere to the mainstream, very strongly.
You mentioned cross-references, start using them, and as for 1 Corinthians 1:20, read that chapter in its entirety because in Order it goes
First Epistle to the Corinthians
- Greeting (1-3)
- Apostle Paul thanking God for the Corinthians (4-9)
- Exhortation, being united (10-17)
- Christ, the power and wisdom of God (18-25) - verse 20
- Boasting only in Almighty God YHWH (26-31)
8 hours ago, Cos said:We can prove something is personification by finding a Bible verse that outright state that it is not a person but a thing. We can do this with blood, rocks, sin, death, hills, wisdom, stars, Jerusalem, etc.
Yet you it was never mentioned by you until it was brought up.
8 hours ago, Cos said:Personification are found throughout the Scriptures, But in all these examples we know by way of human experience that they are not really persons. Not so with the Holy Spirit for such an idea is assumed. No one can know the Holy Spirit is a thing (and not a person) the way we can know the city of Jerusalem is not a person by human experience.
Hence why Greek knowledge has come into question, for if I had not brought up Greek Language and Gender forms, you would have went on about John 14 and 16 with every response. a Language modifier does not prove something is a being and or person, yet you continue to bring up chapter 14 and 16 as prove, when someone can search up the Greek Language and context of the verse, as to why such forms in the language is applied.
Other languages follow this same example to some extent, French, Spanish, etc.
9 hours ago, Cos said:When a passage that ascribes personal characteristics or action to a thing cannot be interpreted literally, then the passage is using personification.
Personification is an example of poetic license: saying something that ordinary logic tells us is impossible. If this ordinary signal is absent, it stands to reason that the passage is not using personification.
And that is why, I call to question your knowledge of the Greek Language, and it does not take members here to see it, even the guests see this too. I gave you the links to the basics in this regard, but I know you ignore it because you want to profess something that is not true. You really have to open your eyes because you are keeping them shut, the same case can be made with the last discussion.
9 hours ago, Cos said:When we turn to the Scriptures that describe the Person and work of the Holy Spirit, however, this ordinary signal is absent. There is nothing in these descriptions of the Holy Spirit that cannot be true of an actual spiritual being.
Yet we have examples like Zechariah, Mary, Samson, etc, even Jesus himself. I' also like to point out that Zechariah and Mary being prime examples, for the both of them have been confronted by an Angel of God, Gabriel, and it is not difficult for one to take into context of both situations, mainly with Mary, who was quite acceptive of her role, the same can be said about Zechariah, the Father of the one who holds a role in being quite the support of the Christ, the very man who he himself made testimony of who the Christ actually is.
9 hours ago, Cos said:For example: “If I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you” (John16:7); “The Spirit intercedes for us” (Rom.8:26); “The Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God” (1Cor.2:10).
Clearly you do not know Greek, as mentioned many times before and you do not know Apostle Paul, the very man who made affirmation of a law from Moses' day. Such as been addressed more than once, yet you continue to use these verses when they hold no merit to your Triune belief. There is a verse that has not been brought up yet that automatically disproves the Triune doctrine, for God has one in-between to men, to mankind, something of which Paul makes very clear of, as well as mentioning such, which alludes to the Law, found in Galatians, which can be traced back to the Old Testament, specifically Exodus.
9 hours ago, Cos said:None of these passages states any personal characteristic or action that is impossible for a spiritual entity to possess or to perform. The usual signpost that says “personification” is absent. There is nothing in these passages that puts them into the company of valleys that sing (Ps.65:13) and stones that cry out (Hab.2:11) except the assumed idea.
You are still not getting it. When a time comes when you get out of the darkness you are in, then, you will see it. Read your bible and take everything into context instead of picking it apart of by means of man's understanding.
9 hours ago, Cos said:There is a second principle that also comes into play: does personification fit the context? When we try to interpret the descriptions of the Holy Spirit as mere figures of speech, the attempt fails. The contexts of the passages do not fit the premise that the Holy Spirit is not a Person. <><
The Holy Spirit has been described multiple times with biblical fact, example, being like wind and or a breathe, you ignored this on this thread, and on the other thread, and I believe one months ago. And there has been enough biblical fact of such to which you are obviously ignoring, for it you had read what was mentioned, this response would have been very different, but you hold strongly to the doctrine of the Holy Spirit being a person, even going as far as to throw your own under the bus to push said doctrine.
This is why it can be said, the doctrine of the Trinity is causing the decline in the church, it has been talked about since the late 2014s, now look around you, around the world. It is pretty evident that the Trinitarian camp isn't doing to well, to the point they started to turn some of their churches into bars and or yoga centers in order to gain more converts, in addition to helping out the very ones we are against.
As I said before to you, many, many times in response to your contradictions, errors and the like, you cannot see the forest for its' trees, so I suggest you start opening your eyes, like I said, the more you speak out of context regarding scripture, you will be corrected no matter what.
I'd also like to point out next time, read also 1 Peter chapter 1 in full, clearly you see Peter identify God as the Father, at least you were able to, possibly unaware, able to quote that, probably expecting us to not see that, but it has been seen, the only God is the Father, not Jesus, not the Holy Spirit, just the Father, my Father, your Father, my God, your God, as well as Jesus' God, the one whom Jesus had already made claim of as his God who is in heaven several times in scripture.
John 8:31-32
(31) So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, (32) and you will know
the truth, and the truth will set you free.
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On 6/9/2018 at 1:58 PM, Jack Ryan said:
You literally had an answer to say and you said it. I remember my mom underlining things to answer and I'd get passed the microphone and read them. Like the speakers never acknowledged the words you spoke, they'd just say "thank you sister/brother/drone so and so"
Nowhere else but like middle school does this happen
I know for most non-American JWs, they can speak for hours regarding a comment made, an experience, and a sermon/talk, some even going as far as to speak of probably a comment and or talk from years ago, possibly a decade or more, be it such ones having remembered such, this goes for any late members among them. I know of an African community of JWs who are well connected with each other.
Other then that, it is vital to speak of what is of scripture anyways, should the nations drop the book on religion, which seems to be the case as of late, remembering such things to maintain faith is important, for if in a situation whereas you have no access to the bible and or things that derive from it, or in other cases, having obvious access to it will render you to be jailed and or killed if compromised - which was the case with a Christian village whereas even after what happen to them, they didn't faulter in what they know, even when the Scriptures itself they do not have access to, mind you, what took place was quite graphic, very graphic, and it halted the village from getting access to their, somewhat sole source of water, hence why they had to go elsewhere to seek protection.
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@James Thomas Rook Jr. He is only going to pull another rabbit out of his hat, as well as repeat himself, for everything he will say that goes against scripture, he will only be corrected. A Dishonest man cannot continue to spread dishonesty and think that he can get away with it, he will be corrected, and the people will see the error of his ways, and the dishonest man, now exposed to the public, will be left in a position to make a serious choice: do what is right, or continue to do what is wrong, now with God and what the scriptures inform us on what is to come, a dishonest man, again, is left with 2 choices - 2 paths, for one can do what is right and be subjected to all that is good, or continue to be ignorant, accept falsehood and or do what is bad, and be subjected being brought to nothing - perish.
But the scriptures is very true to say that it the path is very narrow or the fact that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.
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On 6/9/2018 at 10:40 PM, Cos said:
How can a power/force have emotion, intelligence, a will, and speak? A power/force can’t, but a Person can!
Blood is said to cry out in agony, the same can be said about rocks and stones, perhaps the sea and cities as well, all of which mentioned in the bible, the skies, also referred to as the heavens, proclaim the work of the Father’s hands, such in a similar fashion is said of cities, does not make them persons, now does it?
You continue to shed evident confusion on why the Holy Spirit is called a HE/HIM, utterly unaware of Greek Gender forms until it was revealed to you, only then you tried to make it into something it is not. What the Holy Spirit is described as in scriptures and what it is normally used to do, to be filled with and or bestow upon someone, etc.
For the bible clearly and never states another being was helping Samson for God enabled Samson to have his strength due to Holy Spirit, another being didn’t enable John’s father to speak again for he was filled with the outpouring of the Spirit to proclaim his message after being mute for some time, another being didn’t show up to cause virgin Mary to impregnate because she never had any sexual relations with a man for she suddenly became pregnant by means of the Holy Spirit being outpoured to her not by a literal person, another being didn’t bother to show up after Jesus was tempted, it was angels, who came to minister to him, the list goes on. I will not repeat such descriptions again because it is very evident you do not look into such things and clearly do not understand such things.
On 6/9/2018 at 10:40 PM, Cos said:We will observe that the Holy Spirit is to be distinguished from the Father and the Son.
Yet your inability to answer a question posed before speaks more volume.
Other than that, I had already mentioned much about the Holy Spirit in my other comments, but it would seem you, obviously, had ignored them because I mentioned, with scriptures, other things besides power, breathe, wind, etc, hence you make no acknowledgement of what was already said despite the clear and evident description I stated of the Holy Spirit by means of the scriptures, unlike you, I am not adding into the scriptures of what is not there.
On 6/9/2018 at 10:40 PM, Cos said:Christian assert that in the Divine there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence. This is important to note because when some malign Christians they fail to grasp this and make silly comment like “they believe Son sent himself”.
Not all Christians hold the Trinitarian perspective, please do not throw everyone into the Trinitarian camp, you’d be surprised of how many profess Christians (even non-Christians groups such as Muslims) are against, as well as speak against the Trinity (and against the mainstream who teaches it), since it is the very doctrine that is playing a role in the decline of Christianity around the globe, for the teachings of a confusing doctrine that the Trinity camp deems a mystery turns off and prompts a clear disinterest in Christianity by many, even among the young folk. For this Triune God belief is only asserted by profess Trinitarian Christians, and them alone, it is their own little club, if you will. For Trinitarians believe God is literally 3 persons in one, Triune God, when the bible makes no mention of such, for anything pertaining to the belief of 3 persons in 1, 3 in 1 God, is only from the Trinitarian camp of Christianity whereas others who believe in the scriptures will recognize that God is the Father, and that he sent his Son, Sent in Hebrew being Shaliah.
For Jesus did not come on his own, for he came to do the will of his Father, for the Father abides in him, as he does in true Christians. For Jesus cannot do a thing without the Father, who is His, Jesus’ God.
For Jesus was quite explicit when he stated the following- John 5:36 - But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me.
- John 14:10 - Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
It is odd as you consider something in this fashion silly, you claim Jesus is God before and the bible states God sent himself, most Trinitarians believe Jesus came on his own, when the bible says something totally different, for Jesus was the prophet that was to come, even prophesied as seen in Isaiah (mind you Jesus read the scrolls of Isaiah and stated what he has read had been fulfilled), before that, God himself made it known that a prophet will come and will speak his Word, and behold, we have our Lord, Jesus Christ, sent by the Father, who speaks the Word of God and since the Father abides in him, the works of the Father is witnessed.
It is not unknown to any man that God sent his Son into the World, hence what is stated in a memorable verse.- John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
The Son didn’t send himself, God the Father was the one who sent him (Shaliah), the very prophet who represents the Father, speaks the good news of the gospel of what is to come, and the like.
On 6/9/2018 at 10:40 PM, Cos said:There are many passages in Scripture that prove the distinction of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son and reveal to us the simultaneous co-operation of the three Persons.
Here we go again, you attempt to prove the Son was God before, yet failed due to your blindness, you come to do the same of the Holy Spirit, but a basic question, that is asked by those who want to know the bible, and you cannot answer. It is a belief such as yours that is drawing people away from the scriptures. That is clearly not a good sign.
On 6/9/2018 at 10:40 PM, Cos said:For example we read at Jesus’ baptism, of the voice of the Father, of the personal presence of Jesus, and of the visible descent of the Spirit. We are bound to the passage that the descending Spirit is distinct from the Savior and from the approving Father.
Clearly you do not understand of what is going on in this verse. In the most basic sense, John the Baptism, baptized a pure and sinless man, Jesus, and when he emerged from the water, the sky opened up and God the Father spoke, the Holy Spirit came in form of a dove and filled Jesus with Holy Spirit, for this is why it it is said of the Christ, in scripture, that God’s Spirit is upon him.
For the voice of God, whom spoke from his place of dwelling, Heaven, for this event itself was the first several instances in the gospel accounts where God the Father is reported as speaking audibly to humans, in this passage itself we know the only witness present was John the Baptist, if you want you can count Jesus too, for this was the day, Jesus has become the Christ/Messiah.- Matthew 3:16 – And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him;
Obviously we know God the Father was speaking, as he bestowed the Holy Spirit on to Jesus:
- Matthew 3:17 - and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”
This seems to be the case when we also look at:
- Luke 3:21, 22 - (21) Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heavens were opened, (22) and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.”
We know John was indeed a witness, and the scriptures made it very clear that John indeed bore witness to such an event:
- John 1:29-34 – (29) The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (30) This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.’ (31) I myself did not know him, but for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel.” (32) And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. (33) I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ (34) And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.”
Now doves in the scriptures have both a sacred and a symbolic meaning. For doves were offered as sacrifices, some even tried to sell doves for sacrifices and or burnt offerings, but clearly we see here, Jesus was not a fan of making the Temple, the House of his Father into a place of commerce and or a cave of robbers, as seen in Mark 11:15 and John 2:14-16. Doves symbolized innocence and as well as purity, as Matthew 10:16 puts it
“Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.”Doves also signifies a time of rest and peace, as stated in Genesis 5:29:
and called his name Noah, saying, “Out of the ground that the LORD [YHWH] has cursed, this one shall bring us relief from our work and from the painful toil of our hands.”Now at the time of Jesus’ baptism, God the Father most certainly used the dove to call attention to the role of Jesus as the Messiah (or the Christ), God’s chosen and or anointed one, for the Christ was both pure and sinless Son of God who would give his own life for all of mankind and pave the way for a period of rest, as well as peace during his rule as an anointed King who has both authority and power. As God’s spirit, descended upon Jesus at his baptism, it was then Jesus’ role had been recognized by anyone who clearly understands this passage, and the very reason as to why God outpoured the Holy Spirit, in form of a dove, understanding what a dove means both sacredly and symbolically, clearly another being and or man didn’t come out of the sky, and we know John the Baptism, who was there, bore witness to seeing this event unfold and hearing God the Father speak of his Son (the very prophet of which the law in the Old Testament itself states who would speak the Word of God). For if Jesus was God, clearly he wouldn’t be anointing himself, as I told you before, for there is an anointer and the anointed, one who anoints, the other who has been anointed, you cannot have it both ways, and clearly the Holy Spirit is not God either, for Jesus was filled with the Spirit itself, we go on later to see that Jesus, now the Messiah/Christ, had been tempted by Satan the Devil, ironically, even Satan, as well as the Demons, recognizes Jesus as God’s Son
- Matthew 4:3, 6- (3) And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.” (6) and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written, “‘He will command his angels concerning you,’ and “‘On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.’” (Also see Luke 4:3, 9)
- Matthew 8:28-34 - (28) And when he came to the other side, to the country of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men met him, coming out of the tombs, so fierce that no one could pass that way. (29) And behold, they cried out, “What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?” (30) Now a herd of many pigs was feeding at some distance from them. 31 And the demons begged him, saying, “If you cast us out, send us away into the herd of pigs.” (32) And he said to them, “Go.” So they came out and went into the pigs, and behold, the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea and drowned in the waters. (33) The herdsmen fled, and going into the city they told everything, especially what had happened to the demon-possessed men. (34) And behold, all the city came out to meet Jesus, and when they saw him, they begged him to leave their region. (Also see Luke 4:34, 41)
Moreover, when Satan left Jesus, it would have made sense for a person/being, the Holy Spirit to appear would it not? To minister to Jesus? Surely another man, the so called Holy Spirit Person as you claim, who had the opportunity to minister to Jesus was nowhere to be found. Instead, as we read into the passage, we see well after the Devil has left the scene, Angels of God came to minister to Jesus (still filled with the Holy Spirit), again, the Christ who was filled with the Spirit that God had bestowed upon him.
- Matthew 4:11 - Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and were ministering to him.
We can take Jesus’ word for it too, as seen in John 1:51
And he said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”
Which connects with Luke 22:43,
And there appeared to him an angel from heaven, strengthening him.
Lastly, God approved of his Son, well-pleased and takes great delight in. For we know of this to be direct to Isaiah 42:1 regarding the promised Messiah, the Christ.
Behold my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights; I have put my Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the nations.
The outpouring of Holy Spirit and God’s declaration concerning his own Son were a clear identification of Jesus as the promised Messiah, the very prophet who speaks God’s Word, hence why he is called The Word.
I'd also like to point out that you stated the following: The Holy Spirit is a Person/God
Clearly the bible states the outpouring of the Spirit came in form of a dove, for God had bestowed the Spirit upon his Son, clearly you have ignored what the book of Isaiah had stated.- Isaiah 11:2- And the Spirit of the LORD [YHWH] shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD [YHWH].
And Jesus own words adds more to this clear fact:
- Luke 4:18 - “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
On 6/9/2018 at 10:40 PM, Cos said:Let’s be sure to note that the Spirit is not a dove but descended like one in bodily representation!
Sure. But we should not ignore the very man who bore witness to the event, for he not only saw Jesus emerge from the water, he saw the clouds open up, and the Spirit in form of a dove, visibly, being poured out to the son, filling him with Holy Spirit, and during this, the witness himself heard God speak from the heavens about his Son, and this same witness recognized and affirmed that Jesus, who is now the Messiah, the Christ, is indeed The Son of God.
For has he, John puts it: And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.”
And we know of John’s role from the get-go, it should not be alien to us of what his role was in regards to his people and the very origins of the Baptism (mikveh), and why he baptizes people, it is far more in-depth than repentance for sin, to His people, there is a meaning – that is, if you are aware of the origin of the Baptism.On 6/9/2018 at 10:40 PM, Cos said:And when we read of;
“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ,
and the love of God,
and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.”
(2 Cor. 13:14)For starters, it is 100% pure fact that: There are numerous passages which mention the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Trinitarians commonly call these passages "explicitly Trinitarian" and insist that they are expressing the doctrine of the Trinity.
Now the problem with such claims, such as yours, is that whenever it is possible to count 1,2,3, you, as well as all Trinitarian Christians imagine they have a three person God on their hands.
After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved son, in whom I am well-pleased, as we have already seen with Matthew 3:16-17.
But Trinitarians, such as yourself, do not stop at verses like this, other examples would be:- Matthew 28:19 - Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
- 2 Corinthians 13:14 - The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all. (The one that is quoted now)
- Ephesians 4:4-6 – (4) There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— (5) one Lord, one faith, one baptism, (6) one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
- 1 Peter 1:1-2 – (1) Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, (2) according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
These passages such as these found in the scriptures stand among the Trinitarian "Let's count 'one, two, three' and get a Holy Trinity" passages back o’ tricks for the Trinitarian folk. Whenever they can count up to 3, Trinitarian Christians somehow seem to think this automatically amounts to a Triune God.
Now this would not be a big problem if indeed it was an obviously established fact in the Bible that a three person God exists and this three person God was Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which is clearly not the case here, for it is not a clearly established fact and it begs the question while at the same time Trinitarians are actually using verses like this to try and prove the existence of a three person Triune God when absolutely none of them can be demonstrated to be identifying a three person Triune God, which is evident. It really amounts to an endless loop of negative reasoning, silly nonsense that no one, even a child, wouldn’t waste their time with. In all of these scriptural passages, God is not identified as all 3 but 1 of the 3.
The doctrine of the Trinity is by definition three persons who are one Triune God. The sole idea in the Trinity is not that there are three persons, for three persons mentioned together is not totally unusual to anyone. The sole idea is that these three are also one Triune God. Absolutely none of the verses which Trinitarian Christians are citing when they count, 3 in such a manner, indicate that the 3 mentioned entities are indeed also the one God. Without demonstrating that these 3 are also ONE then the Trinitarian has nothing more than the mention of three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and even that necessarily assumes that the Holy Spirit is a distinct and separate 3rd person in addition to the Father and the Son, when in reality, the Holy Spirit itself, clearly is not a person and or being. It’s an oddity of the Trinitarian mind that counting 3 persons equals the Trinity when it actually doesn't suggest such a thing at all. The Trinitarian doctrine is that 3 persons are also one and none of these verses indicate any such thing. It is also an oddity of the Trinitarian mind that many do not realize this fact and neither do they realize they are performing negative reasoning and the mental gymnastics by taking 1 of the 3, God, and giving his name to all three by an act of their own Trinitarian will and based on their own imagination.
Moreover, God just happens to be one of the aforementioned three; mentioned in the verse. Let’s take 2 Corinthians 13:14 for example. God is mentioned, Jesus is mentioned, and the Holy Spirit is mentioned. Since the one God has already been mentioned, why would anyone want to resort to negative reasoning, and by an act of their own will, label all three as God, despite the passage being very clear on mentioning God the Father apart from the others. It is very silly to label all 3 as God when God is already one of the mentioned, in addition, the matter is even worse with Ephesians 4:4-6 where God is not only mentioned, the text actually says, "one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all," and we are being explicitly told who that one God is, the Father. But somehow these facts seem to slip right by the typical Trinitarian eye.
That being said, this is just yet one of many examples of willful Trinitarian eisegesis, the faulty practice of reading something into the text by an act of their own will and something which the text, nor the context, ever suggests, not one bit. It does not take much thought by anyone to realize such claim such as this to be as empty as the nothingness of space. But for some odd reason, there seems to be many Trinitarians who just don't seem to be able to see how obvious their error is concerning this particular claim, a fine example would be the mentioned of the verse in question here, as do the same claims made by Trinitarians on the streets.
It is indeed a shame, they, as well as you, who are clearly mislead by the mainstream.On 6/9/2018 at 10:40 PM, Cos said:It is impossible to deny the essential distinction here affirmed.
Yet clearly we see here that God is being made known separate from Jesus and the Holy Spirit, for if Jesus and the Spirit were God, it would have mentioned it right here and now – but clearly, in regards to what I have stated about your bag of tricks, it only causes your claim to backfire.
On 6/9/2018 at 10:40 PM, Cos said:And when the believers are described as;
“…elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
in the sanctification of the Spirit,
for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace be multiplied.”
(1 Peter 1:2)I said this not too long ago and I will say it again: There are numerous passages which mention the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Trinitarians commonly call these passages "explicitly Trinitarian" and insist that they are expressing the doctrine of the Trinity.
What was mentioned above pertains to this as well, and clearly you do not know Peter very well.
Peter, just like John the Baptist, was also a witness to hearing God the Father speaking, speaking to his Son, we know of this due to Matthew 17:1-5:(1)And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. (2) And he [Jesus] was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light. (3) And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him. (4) And Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.” (5) He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.”
Ironically, the verse you posted (1 Peter 1:2), Peter mentioned that the Father is God and why stop there? Verse 3 also stated the following:
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
And the cross-references for this verse gives us more information, I’m pretty sure by at point you do not like cross-references despite you mentioning them before, anyways:- Born again – 1 Peter 1:23 – since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;
- Living Hope – Revelations 20:6 – Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
- Risen Jesus; from the Dead – 1 Corinthians 15:20 – But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
Note: the firstfruits is VERY important regarding the Christ
Peter himself recognizes Jesus to be God’s Son, as well as the Christ, the very man of whom God outpoured the Spirit on to, never has he recognized the Christ to be God and or make acknowledgment that the Holy Spirit was a person and or being, for this, I agree with Peter, but apparently you do not. We see a fine example in Matthew 16:16
Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
But wait - there’s more, this is again referred to in several verses:- Mark 8:29 - And he asked them, “But who do you say that I am?” Peter answered him, “You are the Christ.”
- Luke 9:20 - Then he said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” And Peter answered, “The Christ of God.”
- John 1:40-41 - (40) One of the two who heard John speak and followed Jesus was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. (41) He first found his own brother Simon and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which means Christ).
- John 6:68-69 - (68) Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, (69) and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”
Others have also recognized the prophet that God sent (for clearly they didn’t see the man as God, nor did they see another being accompanying this man)- John 4:25 - The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” (Jesus reveals himself to be the Christ to this woman, the very man, having the Spirit upon him, who has been sent by God)
- John 11:27 - She said to him, “Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world.”
So we know who God is, and clearly we know who his Son is, the very one who has been sent, the very prophet who has the Spirit of God abiding in him, which goes with my “True Christian” response in the other post of yours some time ago.- 1 John 4:15 - Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
That being said, it is very evident to take the words of Jesus seriously, instead of adding into the text, for Jesus’ final prayer alongside his disciples, he clearly said the following, as seen in John 17:3:And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
You can’t add words to Peter’s mouth or take what he says out of context, when Peter himself was, like John, a witness, he had seen with and learned from God’s Son, the Christ, he also heard God spoke when he was with Jesus, also accompanied by James and his brother John.
Just to make note of this: Peter identifies Jesus as The Christ (Khri-stos - Christós - Χριστός), a title equivalent to The Messiah (Ma·shiʹach), both meaning Anointed One. And since we know God is the one who anoints, I told you this a few months ago already, clearly he has anointed His Christ, we the baptism makes it clear as to how this is so and when Jesus became the Christ/Messiah. Christ, in the passage, is preceded by the definite article in Greek and or in the Greek language, evidently, it is a way of putting emphasize on Jesus’ position as the Messiah.- Strong’s for Χριστός (Christ) can be found in this link: http://biblehub.com/greek/5547.htm
- Strong’s for Messiah: http://biblehub.com/hebrew/4899.htm
I’d also like to add that it is ironic, they you didn’t take into question that Peter literally referred to the Father as the One True God. This points to this verse also:- Romans 8: 29 - For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Additional cross-references to the verse 2 in Peter:
Obedience to the/blood of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 12:22, 24)- (22) But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, (24) and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
Sanctification by the Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:13)
- But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
On 6/9/2018 at 10:40 PM, Cos said:Scripture leads us to conclude that as the bleeding Savior is distinct from the predestinating Father, so the sanctifying Spirit is Himself distinct.
The verses make no mention of the Holy Spirit being a distinct being/person. Peter's own words and testimony makes an obvious defeat to your claim, just as obvious to the British losing to the Americans and its forces back in the old war days.
On 6/9/2018 at 10:40 PM, Cos said:So in brief at this stage of our inquiry it will be enough to ask ourselves, In the cases cited above, was the co-operating Spirit identical with the Father or with the Son? Could you say it was the Father or the Son who descended on Christ at his baptism? No.
Clearly the Father spoke from the heavens when he outpoured his Spirit to the Son in a form of a dove, for if the Holy Spirit was indeed a person, would it not make sense for it to do a similar action as did the angels right after Jesus’ baptism, into the wilderness when the devil had left him? The passage makes it very clear and clearly John was a witness, pertaining to what he had stated, he himself, who his role in all of this was mentioned prior to his birth, knew who God was, and he bore witness to God speaking, he bore witness to God sending the Holy Spirit, he bore witness to Jesus being filled with the Holy Spirit.
Also it is to note that God didn’t come down himself, and clearly the Son could not have come down if he was already on earth, being baptized, but that comment of yours is kind of weird, you making the Son and the Christ separate despite them being the same person? Not sure if this is a new Trinitarian thing, or just pure error by one’s constant response to make himself in the right, when him being mislead, is clearly in the wrong.
It would be very tragic if you end up like his one Trinitarian, Jay Smith, who is a known Hate Preacher, who teaches and forces the Trinity Doctrine on those who do not agree with him, even when corrected the spread of the accursed doctrine.
Other than that, in short, Jesus, pure and sinless, has been baptized, God sent down the Holy Spirit in form of a dove, filling the Son with said Holy Spirit, and the Son has now become the Messiah/Christ and went on to take on his role as the Christ, and the Father abides in him and does the works, for Jesus, the Christ, cannot do a thing without the Father, the same God and Father who is in union with him, who is also in union with the disciples, as well as True Christians – For the Father, as well as the Christ, dwells in those who are True.On 6/9/2018 at 10:40 PM, Cos said:Who could assert that grace and peace are brought forth from the Father, and from one who under another name is also the Father (as some have claimed), and from Jesus Christ? No one could maintain this for a moment. The Holy Spirit, therefore is clearly distinct from the Father, and from the Son. <><
Yet you make contraindication after contradiction and assert things into the text, mainly in some passages you were not aware of at all, let alone the Greek forms. Friend, you are truly mislead here and it is very tragic to see people like you in such a state, the only good thing is you are not among the extreme Trinitarian Christians (the very ones I deal with on a daily basis), but other than that, you continue to shed ignorance and not accepting what is true and or what the bible teaches itself. At this point it is not about Jehovah’s Witnesses anymore, it is about one who does not understand what the scriptures speaks of the Spirit, but yet continues to assert something that he cannot prove and or do not under context of, which is very evident here, as well as what was seen by you before regarding John chapter 14 and 16.
At the end of the day, you still cannot prove the Holy Spirit is a person and or being (mainly with enough proof that solidifies what the bible says vs that of Trinitarians), and you cannot prove that the Holy Spirit is a God, when being ignorant of the day and hour of judgment.What will hurt you even more is with what Zechariah had seen by means of a vision, I’ll give you a hint, is refers to 2 individuals, which also connects with John’s vision also, 2 individuals. Clearly God the Father, Almighty Eternal King, the one above everyone and everything, being one person, and the other in question, obviously, being Jesus Christ, Son of God, Messianic King, God’s chosen/anointed one (Christ). We got one on the throne, the other right next to the Father's own throne, for if we are to be honest, we would also see that the Holy Spirit would have been on the other side also, but clearly, the Holy Spirit is not a person, nor is it a God - you really have to be honest with yourself, spare yourself unnecessary contraindications, negative reasoning of man and the mental gymnastics, that will only back you into corner, and as the saying goes, there's no telling what a cornered beast might do, in this case, what it will say, hence this topic and claims from this topic.
The question, still remains, of which was mentioned several times already, and the answer is very clear –The Holy Spirit is not a person, nor is it a God. Grace and Peace is indeed brought forth by God the Father, and it has been done through his Son, who gave his life, for you, me and everyone else, as well as opening the doors of the New Covenant. This was done so that we should not have to perish, having a chance to repent and learn of who God is and who his Son is, what the Kingdom is all about and what it will bring, enabling us to be part of the Spiritual House, being filled with the Holy Spirit and to do the good works, make teachers out of students, etc. For we, as Christians, God and his Son dwells in us - True Christians, and True Christians do not apply what is accursed, they strive to seek out and or stick to what is true, some being close to what is true vs those who remain far from it. We are the Living Stones, we make up the Spiritual House, as to its foundation, being the Christ.
Should you continue in your hoop-de-loop claims, it will only cause you more problems when those who know the bible very well can backup evidence and support to prove your claims wrong, and I am sure you this isn't the first rodeo we have had, and since it is public, anyone can see that for themselves. -
On 6/5/2018 at 11:42 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:
That would mean that in 60 seconds. or only one minute ... the entire flow could cover 7.1667 MILES ... or looking at it another way ... the flow could cover 5 miles in 42 SECONDS?
Is that really what you were trying to convey?
Pretty much, those flows are quite fast, mainly in the area in question such took place upon.
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13 hours ago, Michael Krewson said:
Last I heard 68 people have died.
Some from pyroclastic flows... which sound pretty horrendous.
Pyroclastic flow in this situation I believe to be about 5 miles long in that area, and such are incredible fast, going about 430 mph+ as it travels down, for anyone in the direct path of this flow virtually has no chance to react and or escape. The death toll may be higher because there is also a nearby village that is deemed unreachable, so we may not know until later on. It is very tragic.
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@Cos You continue to repeat yourself, yet the question has never be and never will be answered and you still continue to add to the scriptures. You should be chuckling a bit more because you still assume some to be Arian, when you yourself stated clearly that spoke boldly about Jesus worship vs God regarding religious worship and servitude (then again you did claim Jesus is God, so that makes it more evident), that is Arianism in itself, and even modern day Arians praise and worship, religiously, to Jesus and he alone whereas the scriptures and God's law itself tells us to worship God and him alone, clearly a jealous God, no one above or equal to him and or, according to Paul, not to considered someone to to be equal to him, this includes Jesus despite him and all men being in the image and likeness of God, moreover, Jesus himself quoted what is written regarding God's law, we should be worshiping God and serve him. And I believe I already told you before, Unitarians are not Arians, regardless of the denomination be it some agree with each other or not, for if they were, they'd be worshiping Jesus and instead of God. Now tell me, do I look like someone who proclaims Jesus worship when clearly I have stated time and time again that we should be worshiping God and he alone? As I recall, I made a response to you in this regard to which I put the verse you posted in context and directed you to Acts 1 and 2, to which you ignored - so I'll pass on your Jesus religious worship of which you professed, not only it is Arian, as you love saying that, but it is borderline hypocritical to call others Arians vs your own comments before.
As I stated before only Trinitarians believe the Holy Spirit is a Person, Non-Trinitarians in general do not believe the Holy Spirit is a Person, they believe the Holy Spirit to be a force, energy, power, a voice, God's hands and or fingers, wind, breathe, etc. (for all such things is found in scripture) for they are clearly not a fan of the man-made hypothesis of a Triune God that the Trinitarians believe, nor do they believe the Holy Spirit is a Person that ha its way with people, let alone physically being responsible for the birth of Christ, there are sick groups out there who profess such a thing. Clearly such knowledge of Christology does is nowhere to be found in you, nor is the Greek Language.
Other then that, you may as well throw Arians into your camp also, for not only they worship Jesus, modern Arians believe that the Holy Spirit is Holy Spirit is a person or higher angel, which is both false.
To put it short for anyone viewing this:
Trinitarians
- They believe that God is the Father, as well as Jesus being God an the Holy Spirit being God as well as a literal person.They believe Son sent himself, taking form of a man being fully god and man at the same time whereas there is no acknowledgement of this in scripture. We they believe in scripture, however put their own spin into the text and scripture, have also been called out for 16th century forgeries to which they accept today, and I am sure many here know about 1 John 5:7, as with a slew of other forgeries, errors, and added verses, to which Trinitarians use in order to push the trinity, using the uninspired verses to preach a gospel that was not in the oldest source, the only thing that is inspired
Non-Trinitarians
- They believe God is one God, the Father. The Son, being Jesus is the one sent by the Father, and that the Holy Spirit is what God uses in regards to his action as well as his will. We embrace the scriptures 100% and do not add, hide, or butcher the scriptures or brush over anything pertaining to God's Law.
As I said, 2 camps, 2 general views of he Holy Spirit. Clearly we know which side you are on, and everyone knows which side I am on, and clearly one side take issue with people who make the Holy Spirit into something it is not.
You can remain blind to the simple fact that the scripture is truth, and what it speaks of the Holy Spirit is indeed the truth. For if the Holy Spirit was a person, it would be acceptable, there is no argument in that, but the scriptures does not say or make recognition to such a belief, and suing gender forms will not help your case, nor is throwing Paul's belief into this also, for Paul had made a clear affirmation multiple times in scripture. Other then that the Scriptures make it clear that God is indeed a person, hence such qualities and actions displayed by him and what Jesus says about his Father. We know Jesus is a person, this is obvious. We know Spirit Beings, Angels and Demons are indeed persons, as well as places and or things described as persons when clearly they are not. We know that the Greek Language itself tends to add a gender to some places and or things (it was not just Jerusalem and the Holy Spirit having modified neuter forms), etc. I would speak of other Trinitarians who have more of a sick and twisted belief of the Holy Spirit being a person, but for the sake of this forum, mainly due to other viewers here, even JWs, I rather keep censored, for there are indeed some twisted Christians that are beyond mislead that it is mind boggling.
You truly have to be real with yourself because right now I see nothing more than a man hurting himself trying to prove something unscriptural if this was the CSE, they'd raised a fire to your claims in sheer refutation, which usually happens when a Trinitarian leaves their inner circle.
I am the Christ
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I have, just that I tend to add many examples and details when met with a response, the habit is to prove information, regardless. If I have not said anything pertaining to sections of your comment, I would not have mad a response, let alone broken them down to make a direct response to each. Plus it is not a surprise of how my comments are structured, I am quite lecture-sque type, I like information in full and well detailed.
If you want some thing very brief, Restorationist of this kind, Bible Students/Jehovah's Witnesses/Bible Thumpers/other minorities that hold a Restorationist view follow very closely of what the bible speaks of regarding Teachers/Prophets, how such ones are to take care of their flock, in this case, the church. They tend to act as guidance and to teach as well as make decisions for the flock, in some cases, even regarding a person who has sinned. Such ones do not take kindly to interfaith silliness and it results in expelling for anything that is not of the faith results in expelled, what Jesus had entrusted to begin with.
And no contradictions, simply truth and getting a word out for those who were attacked for their views vs the one sided opponent of said faith. CTR himself adhere to what the bible says and clearly over time, he, as did others, learn, they adapt, etc. That is what a Restorationist are known for after all, and this is why what I have said is actually fact, that is, if both sides are being heard instead of one side, which seems to be the case, hence why the breakdown of of tour response.
That being said, it is also the very reason why the church leaders of JWs act the way they do, Restorationist tend to go on the far more ancient side of Christianity vs modern, such ones tend to not stem too close to how mainstream Christians act, and should a change be made, they live up to it so that it matches conduct and what the bible says.
This is why it is important to understand where such ones are coming from.
Fact: Restorationism, the belief that Christianity has been or should be restored along the lines of what is known about the apostolic early church, which restorationists see as the search for a more pure and more ancient form of the religion. Fundamentally, "this vision seeks to correct faults or deficiencies (in the church) by appealing to the primitive church as a normative model."