Space Merchant

The FBI cannot be trusted. After the Las Vegas shooting, some witnesses who survived had been killed, one by one - by FBI operatives and any such talk was clearly silenced. The men in black are not always the ones who come to help, for most of the time they come to destroy an to bring forth ruin. It is no surprise to me that they would do such a things to the common citizen(s) who own such things.

@AllenSmith One thing for certain, the United Nations do have their cards on the table, and clearly has a few under their sleeve, number 21 tends to be the lucky number too. For me I have 3 sources I adhere to in regards to that kind of stuff an are quite credible, use to be 4 until the man stuck it to him and so and so has been recovering, but has o be censored otherwise he'd get the boot again. Among them, one of which is a good Christian man, however he seems to have his fingers in the water, he tends to be a bit political but clearly against the government and corruption, I myself am not.

@Jack Ryan Clearly one must drink such in moderation.

There is a clear difference and drinking responsibility vs drinking to the point of being drunk, however, some drinks tend to send people overboard really fast, thus the one in question needs to control themselves and limit themselves so they do not succumb to drunkenness. At the same time should one become drunk, it will result in many problems, drunk driving, fighting and a slew of other things, even rape, which tends to happen a whole lot at gatherings involving young people and or on the college/university scene. Other times depression, drinking being the only way to cope, even a good man can succumb to strong drinking habits even though he is not the type of person to do such, this also goes for those with suicidal intent and or suffering from some sort of guilt and or action.

That being said, one needs to be very careful. I myself do not drink, I choose not to for various reasons, in addition to that, out of experience, I had seen quite the situation of drunkenness numerous times, even convinced someone to stop drinking to heavily.

 

Also just wanna put this out there: Friends don't let friends drive drunk

On 6/1/2018 at 9:47 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I firmly believe that if we as Jehovah's Witnesses stuck to just the Gospel, as written, and not all the outlandish and "problematic" theological theories whose sole purpose is to generate slavish obedience to self appointed men, artificial panic, and a sense of urgency to keep the "troops" marching ... that we would not have to spend endless hours knocking on doors of people that could not care less, or are not at home ...

They would be knocking on ours.

We have the TRUTH ... but like in any delicious, wholesome salad ... it is offensive for rational people to have to eat around the crap.

It would be better to knock on a door than not doing it at all, be it the householder listens or not, for that doing nothing and or causing one to be subject to what is to come, of such one will reap also.

At times though, there tends to be surprises for those who go to a house, be it a JW or a salesman, and or other.

That being said, we are all also remember Romans 2:6, He will render to each one according to his works:

All and all, I have said this before, not many people realize what is going on, some Christians know things that others do not, the same can be said for Jehovah's Witnesses, for one may not know that there are some key players working to change, and or prohibited the use of the bible, for there is an ongoing fight in the US, I believe their has been a fight that has already been lost.

Which makes me think sometimes, what if the US became quite oppressive of the bible? It was not long ago that drag-queens took issue with it when they tried to cater to young people, if such reached an extreme, it would be quite the show that no one whats to be an actor and or actress of in such a situation.

In the end, people want the gospel, whomever has truth and or close to truth, such ones, be it high and mighty, or lowly, they too want to her the gospel, should someone not listen, you dust off your feet and move on to the next person, and the next, until the master tells you to clock out and pays out.

@James Thomas Rook Jr. Unfortunately people do not understand what is truth, and will do whatever it takes to twist truth to the point it is cringe-worthy. Trinitarians will push ever effort possible to prove something they believe vs. the Scriptures, at the same time some of their mental gymnastics will backfire, contradict, and roadblock. It is foolish and somewhat sad for people to think Paul means something totally different, when Paul himself know exactly who God is, who Jesus is and what was it God bestows on his people to do the works, mainly when it came to Paul's involvement in the church, civil disobedience, the Temple of Artimeis when he was in Ephesus for quite the period of time, etc.

Trinitarians cannot tell the left shoe from the right shoe, but sadly, they are merely blind, as well as mislead. They are among many of the odd ball Christians who stem far from what is true, and I can tell you, there are some off the chain crazies out there with outlandish beliefs, some not PG enough to even be said here.

@Jack Ryan Unfortunately using a murder-suicide to push an agenda will not help anyone here, nor the family of the victims or anyone who knew them. It gets a bit hypocritical also judging on this murder-suicide being one of many murder-suicides that took place that week, nearly identical as well, in addition, this mirrors that of the gun-tooting Christian woman who offed her family then herself.

At the end of the day, the one wholes the gun has ill intent, be a Jehovah's Witnesses, a Baptist, a Protester, a Muslim, a man or woman of racial background, a skinhead, etc.

But with all of this, people still look for someone to blame, mainly when the story has been pieced together, and the more this continues, the more it will continue to put people at risk, if I am not mistaken there has been several situations against JWs and other churches already.

Keep in mind, there may be some typos, some I may/may not be able to edit later on.

1 Corinthians 8:6

yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

 

• Evident Trinity Error

In this verse, Apostle Paul indicates that the one God is one person, and that person is The Father. On the other side of the spectrum, to Trinitarians, in their doctrine it states that the one God is three persons, this teaching by Apostle Paul clearly and necessarily says that the one God is one person and that one person is the Father of our Lord, Jesus.

• The Trinitarian Response

The typical Trinitarian response here is to insist that if anyone concludes that Jesus cannot be God since the Father is identified as the one God then one must also consistently conclude that the Father is not Lord since Jesus is identified as the one Lord. The expectation here is that no one will conclude the Father is not "Lord" and so the claim that Jesus is not the one God is voided by this response.

For instance, we have responses like this:

• "But by that reasoning, since Jesus is the "one Lord," the Father cannot be Lord!" (Robert Bowman, Why You Should Believe in the Trinity, p. 73).

Ironically, Bowman immediately cites Matthew 11:25. We will see why that is so ironic down below.

As for the verse in question:

Come to Me, and I Will Give You Rest

• Matthew 11:25 - At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;

Essentially, Bowman is arguing that if one argues that Jesus cannot be the one God then to be consistent one must also argue the Father is not the one Lord. To those that are unaware this may sound good, therefore, we will see that this is simply a trick to confuse unsuspecting people who do not know much about scripture and about God himself. For we can take this scripture below with seriousness:

False Prophets and Teachers

• 2 Peter 2:1-3 - (1) But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. (2) And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. (3) And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
• 

We will see shortly that this is not a question of whether the Father is Lord. It is a question of whether the Father is THIS Lord mentioned in this verse. He isn't. The Father is the Lord and God of the Lord Jesus. In the scriptures found in our Bibles, it is clear and it tells you that in the days of King David, he was the Lord of Israel, in addition, even servants of David called and recognized him as Lord King David as well. Does that mean he must be God? Absolutely and most definitely no. Israel's Lord was David - David's Lord was God, the Lord God.

• The Evidence

1. The Trinitarian Identification of the One God vs. Apostle Paul's Identification

In the doctrine of the Trinity, the one God is three persons. The one God is the one Triune Being. But according to Apostle Paul, he is defining the one God as one person, the Father. The Father is not the Triune Being and the Triune Being is not the Father. Hence, Apostle Paul is clearly defining the one God differently than Trinitarians and or those who claim the belief of a Triune being doctrine.

Trinitarian: there is one God: the Triune Being (three persons)  Vs. The Bible: there is one God: the Father (one person)

2. Deception with Word Trickery

First point, the Trinitarian response attempts to change the question and most people are ultimately  unaware of this deception. The Trinitarian response suggests that if you say Jesus is not God then you would also have to say the Father is not Lord. But Apostle Paul was not talking about whether the Father is God or whether Jesus is Lord. He isn't telling us what is true about the Father (whether he is God) and he isn't telling us what is true about Jesus (whether he is Lord). Apostle Paul is telling us what is true about our one God (our God is the Father) and what is true about our one Lord (our Lord is Jesus). This Trinitarian trickery attempts to change what the question at hand is about to confuse the question at hand.

Second point, the Trinitarian word game gets people to suppose there is only one Lord in existence and since the Father is Lord and Jesus is Lord, they must therefore be that one and the same Lord which is the only one in existence, or at least, the only one whom Christians recognize. This is 100% false. Apostle Paul is not telling us there is only one Lord in existence, he is telling us we have 1 God PLUS 1 Lord. 1 + 1 = 2, simple math. To put it another way, he is telling us we have one God, the Lord God, and in addition to our one God, we have one Lord, the Lord Jesus, the Christ (God's chosen Christ). Trinitarians suggestively imply Paul's point is that there is only one Lord in existence because if someone says the one God can't be Jesus (since the one God is identified as the Father), they need to have it that only one Lord exists and then insist you can't say the Father isn't that one Lord. But these claims are not based on facts; they are based on their suggestive words tricks and a bit of absurdities. In this verse, the Father IS NOT "the one Lord" who is mentioned in this verse. Jesus is the one Lord mentioned in this verse. He is someone we Christians have in addition to our one God, the Father. Let us now see this clearly.

3. When men are nullifying Scripture for the sake of their traditions

If Paul was not identifying the one God as one person, the Father, and if Paul was not identifying the one Lord as one person, Jesus, then what would be his point? It is quite clear that the Trinitarian response here is designed to nullify and or break this passage and rob it of any true meaning whatsoever. They don't care what this passage really means, which is evident to many. They only care about what they do not want it to mean and they don't want it to mean that Paul is telling us our God is only one person. But if that were so, what is Paul's point when he said, "for us there is one God: the Father," if it was not to identify quite clearly just who our one God is and that the one God is this one person whom we call the Father? The Trinitarian intent is to rob Paul's message of any meaning at all. The effect of the Trinitarian response is that it completely nullifies Paul's point and this is exactly what the Trinitarian apologist wants to do for the sake of his Trinitarian tradition.

4. One Lord/God and One Lord/God = Two Gods

What the typical Trinitarian response argument is essentially suggesting is that Apostle Paul really meant, "for us there is one Lord God, the Father.... and one Lord God, Jesus Christ. Trinitarians want to have the word "Lord" to be just another label for the one "God" just as the word "God" is a reference to the one God. However, if you just stop and think about it, this doesn't make any sense whatsoever. IF that were the case, Paul would be effectively saying there is one Lord God, the Father.... and one Lord God, Jesus Christ. That necessarily amounts to two Gods. One plus One is Two. If we have "one" of these and "one" of those it amounts to two things. Trinitarians like to say, "there is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." But Paul did not say, "there is one God, the Father.... and Jesus." Since Trinitarians want "God" and "Lord" to be different titles for the same identity, God, he has Paul saying there is one God who is the Father and one God who is Jesus Christ for a sum total of two Gods.

The Definition of the word "God" in this Verse

How does the Trinitarian define the word "God" in this verse? Indeed, how does he define the words "one God." This term cannot be defined as the Triune God because that would be saying the Triune being is the Father which makes no sense in Trinitarian doctrine. Hence, the Trinitarian's only option is to try and claim it means "the one divine ousia," the divine nature. And indeed he must since there is no other option. Paul is referring to the "one God" and the oneness of God in Trinitarian doctrine is the divine ousia. And this is where the Trinitarian is caught in an unsolvable predicament. He needs to have the words "God" and "Lord" be references to the divine nature. So here Paul would be defining the one divine nature as the one person of the Father and the one (same) divine nature (Lord) as the person of the Son. But this doesn't work in their doctrine. Doing such a thing would confuse person and being by granting identity to the divine nature which they claim they do not do. They would be ascribing identity to the divine nature and turning the what into a who. So this claim is also proven false. Not only so, it is clear that the word "God" and "Lord" are references to identities not natures since Paul is contrasting our one God, the Father, with the many gods of the pagans, and our one Lord, Jesus, with many lords of the pagans. Moreover, if they word "God" was a reference to the divine nature, Paul would be identifying this divine nature ("God") as the Father. That would mean the Trinitarian Jesus' divine nature is the Father. Absurd even in Trinitarian doctrine.

• 1 Corinthians 8:3-6 - (3) But if anyone loves God, he is known by God. (4) Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.” (5) For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords” (6) yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

The one God we love is our Father, the God of Jesus (for the Head of the Christ is God, as seen in 1 Corinthians 11:3). The word "God" and the word "Lord" are obviously references to identity, not nature.

5. The Structure of the Passage

The Trinitarian error can also be clearly seen when the context is honestly considered:

Quote

There is no God but One Many gods Many lords Yet for Us One God - the Father Out of whom are all things and we to Him and One Lord - Jesus Christ Through whom are all things and we through him

Paul is contrasting many Gods with our one God AND he is contrasting many Lords with our one Lord:

Quote

Although there are For us there is many gods one God - the Father and and many lords one Lord - Jesus Christ

We have one God in contrast to many Gods. We do not have one God in contrast to many Lords. We do not have one Lord in contrast to many gods either. We have one Lord in contrast to many Lords. It is very important to see this parallel in Paul's argument. There are many Gods but we have one God. AND there are many Lords but we have one Lord.

Some have many gods PLUS many lords. Christians have one God PLUS one Lord (Two).

6. King of Kings and Lord of Lords

In Scripture, there are many Lords (kyrios) identified including Abraham, Saul, David, Solomon, and Paul. The title "Lord of Lords" is an easy and simple way to see that there is not just one Lord in existence. If it were true that there was only one Lord in existence, and the Lords did not exist, the title "Lord of Lords" would be a very empty title. So we see in Scripture that there are indeed "many Lords" as Paul said at 1 Corinthians 8:4. There several Scriptural facts which demonstrate the Trinitarian claim is based on false premises. "Lordships" were created for example (Colossians 1:16). David is profusely called "Lord" at 1 Kings chapter one (1-50 verses) and the Israelites are bowing down (proskyneo) before him as their Lord, "David our Lord." The Trinitarian response to 1 Corinthians 8:6 is entirely based on suggesting only one Lord exists. They do this because they need to claim that if only Lord exists then the Father is necessarily that one Lord in view because they also want to claim, by an act of their own will, that Jesus is that one God of 1 Corinthians 8:6 despite the fact that Paul has already identified the one God as the Father. But the claim that only one Lord exists is demonstrably false. The word "Lord" in this verse is Greek kyrios. The Shema command at Deuteronomy 6:4 says, "the Lord (kyrios) our God, the Lord (kyrios) is one." But King David was Israel's Lord (kyrios). So must we conclude that David is the Lord our God? The answer to this question speaks for itself in volume, and this illustrates the Trinitarian error concerning 1 Corinthians 8:6.

7. Israel: One God and One Lord

At 1 Corinthians 8:6, the word for "Lord" is the Greek word "Kyrios." It was Israel who received the Shema command, "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God the Lord is one." In Greek, this reads, "Hear O Israel, the Kyrios our God the Kyrios is one." Now here is the critical point. Ancient Israelites could also say, "for us there is one God, Yahweh, and one Lord/Kyrios, King David."

All verses below from 1 Kings chapter 1:

Nathan and Bathsheba Before David

• (11) Then Nathan said to Bathsheba the mother of Solomon, “Have you not heard that Adonijah the son of Haggith has become king and David our lord does not know it?

Solomon Anointed King

• (43) Jonathan answered Adonijah, “No, for our lord King David has made Solomon king,
• (47) Moreover, the king's servants came to congratulate our lord King David, saying, ‘May your God make the name of Solomon more famous than yours, and make his throne greater than your throne.Â’ And the king bowed himself on the bed.

In the Greek translation of the Old Testament, the word translated as "Lord" here is the Greek word "Kyrios," the same word which is used of Jesus at 1 Corinthians 8:6. Israel had one Lord God and one Lord David: Two Lords. The Shema command does not mean that only one Lord exists; it means that the Lord our God is only one Lord not many. This is a reference to who God is. It didn't prevent the Israelites from having another Lord, namely, David. In the same way, Yahweh their God was their King. But so was David their Lord; he was also the King of Israel? Same King? No, they were not the same King and they were not the same Lord. The same is true at 1 Corinthians 8:6.

Let's go back to the Trinitarian response to 1 Corinthians 8:6. If someone insisted that David is not the one God because Yahweh/Jehovah is the one God, do they also need to consistently argue that Yahweh/Jehovah is not the one Lord because David is their one Lord? Obviously not. The fact that Israel had one God and one Lord shows us that the one Lord is not necessarily the same identity as the one God. It also shows us that their response to 1 Corinthians 8:6 is fallacious.

8. Two Lords: The Lord God and the Lord Jesus

It is quite clear in the Scriptures that there is not just one Lord in existence and Christians acknowledge more than one Lord. At Acts 2:34-36, we read that Peter quotes Psalm 110:1, "The Lord said to my Lord, 'Sit at my right hand.'" Lord 1 speaks to Lord 2. And then we read that Peter proclaims this Psalm was fulfilled when God raised Jesus from the dead and "made him Lord." Acts 2:36 tells us that the Lord God made Jesus "Lord."

• Acts 2:36 - Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

The word "Lord" obviously isn't a reference to Jesus as God since God obviously didn't make Jesus "God." Prior to his resurrection, he was the King of the Jews, and like David, he was Lord of Israel. But in his resurrection he was made Lord of all creation (hence exaltation and God given authority and power). The Lord God made him Lord, "the Lord said to my Lord." The Lord God is one and Lord Jesus is another: two Lords. This is no different than the situation in Israel. They had one Lord, God, and one Lord, David. 1 + 1 = 2 different identities. The same is true at 1 Corinthians 8:6. Two distinct identities and one of them is not God. And the other, the Father, is not the Lord mentioned in this verse. Just as the Lord God was not Lord David, the people of Israel had one God, Yahweh/Jehovah, and one Lord, David. Two different identities. David was not Yahweh/Jehovah.

That Jesus and the Father are not the same Lord is also shown by the following:

• Matthew 11:25 - At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;

The Father was Jesus Christ's Lord. The Father was his God, the Lord God. The Lord of Lord Jesus was the Father. The Lord Jesus has a Lord but the Father does not. The Lord Jesus has a Lord but the Lord God does not. The Head of every man is Christ and the Head of Christ is God. The Lord of every man is Jesus and the Lord of Jesus is God. The Lord of Jesus is God; our Father the Lord God has no Lord. One of these Lords has a Lord but the other does not. This is because they are not the same Lord. Simply understanding these common sense facts tells us plainly there are two Lords whom Christians recognize.

The Seventh Trumpet

• Revelations 11:15 -  Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”

9. The Context: Food Sacrificed to Idols

Now concerning idol sacrifices. Since we know that all of us have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. If any one thinks that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if one loves God, he is known by Him. Hence, as to the eating of idol sacrifices, we know that an idol is nothing and that there is no God but one. For although there may be gods in heaven or on earth, as there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is one God, the Father, out of whom are all things and we to Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and we through him. (1 Corinthians 8:1-6).

Trinitarians also mistakenly suppose Apostle Paul is here talking about the Genesis act of creation and God creating all things through Jesus. However, the context shows us that this is not what Paul is talking about. Paul is talking about created things which now exist but he isn't talking about the Genesis ACT of creating all things. In context, he is talking about food sacrificed to idols, for all of 1 Corinthians chapter 8 pertains to Food Offered to Idols. What he has in mind here is that all things are ours in the risen Christ whom God has made Lord over all things. God subjected all things to Jesus when He seated the risen Jesus at his right hand and subjected all things to him giving him all authority in heaven and earth. Since all things are ours in Christ our Lord, we can know that food sacrificed to idols is nothing. Nevertheless, Paul's point is that we should not eat food sacrificed to idols in case it could make a brother stumble. Paul's point here is that we are co-heirs with Christ who was made heir of ALL things (cr. Hebrews 1:2,4) when God raised him from the dead and made him Lord. Paul's thought here is very similar to what he says earlier in this epistle (letter):

Divisions in the Church

1 Corinthians 3:21-23 - (21) So let no one boast in men. For all things are yours, (22) whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, (23) and you are Christ's, and Christ is God's.

10. Deuteronomy 6:4-5 - The Shema

Some Trinitarians have absurdly attempted to claim that Paul "reworked" the Shema command for Christianity. At Mark 12:28-34, during a discussion with a Jewish scribe, Jesus tells us that the Shema command is the foremost command for the Jews under the Law.

The Greatest Commandment

• Mark 12:28-34 - (28) And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” (29) Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. (30) And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.Â’ (31) The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.Â’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” (32) And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. (33) And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” (34) And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions.

Jesus himself was born under this law, just like all Jews

• Galatians 4:4 - But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,

Jesus and this Jewish scribe have an agreeable discussion about the Shema and they inform us that the words "the Lord is one" mean that the God of Israel is one "HE" since "there is no other but HE/HIM", we can also look to Deuteronomy 4:35 which reads:

• (35) To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord is God; there is no other besides him.

Jesus also makes it clear that the Shema command is referring to God the Father. The Father is this one single "HE." This is because the Shema command says, "Hear O Israel, the Lord OUR God, the Lord is one." Jesus was a Jew under the Law and he was required to obey the Law. For Jesus and this Jewish scribe, the God of Israel was "OUR" God and Jesus was required to obey the Shema command to recognize the God of Israel. We know that the God of Israel was not a three-person-being because Jesus obeyed this command by recognizing the Father and loving only the Father with all his heart and soul and might. The Shema command was for every Jew and Jesus was one of those Jews. We also know that Jesus correctly obeyed the Law and the Shema command. He didn't just recognize and serve "HIS" God; he recognized and served "OUR" God, the God of Israel. Since we know that Jesus obeyed this command correctly, and we know he served only the Father as his God, we know beyond any doubt that the Shema command is referring to the Father. He, the Father, is one and there is no other but Him. Jesus' own testimony about the Shema command, and his testimony in how he obeyed that command, shows us beyond any doubt whatsoever that the Shema command refers to his Father, "OUR God," the God of Israel, since he recognized the God of Israel, as commanded in the Shema, to be no one else but his Father.

The Father was the Kyrios (Lord) of the Shema command. And David was another Kyrios (1 Kings 1:36). Israel had one Kyrios who was Yahweh their God and another Kyrios who was David their Lord and King. David was God's Anointed and Jesus is God's Anointed. So in the same way, we have one Kyrios who is God the Father, an another Kyrios who is Jesus; we know two, the Lord God and His Anointed One, the Lord Jesus.

• Deuteronomy 6:4-5 - (4) “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. (5) You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

If anyone loves God, he is known by Him... there is no God but one... for us there is one God, the Father...

11. The Trinitarian's Inescapable Dilemma

When Trinitarians wish to insist that Paul is indicating there is only one Lord in existence, he will find himself caught in an inescapable dilemma with his claim that the word "Lord" is simply another way of indicating that one is "God." Carefully regard the following passages of Scripture:

• the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (Rom 15:6).
• the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Cor 1:3).
• the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Cor 11:31).
• the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (Eph 1:3).
• the God of our Lord Jesus Christ (Eph 1:17).
• the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (Col 1:3).
• the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:3).

The one Lord, Jesus Christ, has a God. If the word "Lord" was a reference to "God" then all these passages would referring to the God of our God Jesus Christ. God's God? It is absurd to suggest God has a God no matter how you mighty want to qualify it. It is quite clear that the one Lord or 1 Corinthians 8:6 is not God but a Lord who has a God, the Father. The one God, the Father, is the God of the one Lord, Jesus Christ. Likewise, the one God, Yahweh/Jehovah (The One and Only El Shaddai/Hashem), was the God of Israel's one Lord, King David. The Father is the God of this "one Lord" mentioned at 1 Corinthians 8:6. The Father is not this one Lord but the God of this one Lord. The Lord God is the God of the Lord Jesus.

12. Paul's Point: One God plus One Lord = TWO - The Lord God and His Christ

Paul's point is quite clear. For us Christians there is one God: the Father. In contrast to many Gods we just have one God and that one God is the Father. Period. For us Christians there is also one Lord: Jesus Christ. In contrast to many Lords we just have one Lord and that one Lord is Jesus. We have one God and we also have one Lord. We have one God, the Lord God, plus one Lord, Jesus Christ. The one God is the God of the Lord Jesus. The Lord Jesus has a God and Lord; the Lord God does not.

If we are concerned about consistency, and we said that Jesus cannot be the one God whom Paul is mentioning then we would also have to say the Father is not the one Lord Paul mentions in this verse. And yes we would and should say this because it is most certainly true. The Father is not the one Lord who Paul is talking about at 1 Corinthians 8:6. That one Lord is Jesus. The Father is another Lord, Jesus Christ's Lord. The Father is the God of this Lord, as Paul says several times. Jesus is the one whom God MADE Lord when He raised him from the dead. This Lord is most definitely not the Father. This Lord is not the Lord God; this Lord is the Lord Jesus whose God is the Lord God, our Father.

Can we say with consistency that Jesus cannot be the one God? Yes we certainly can. There is only one true God and Paul identifies that one God as the Father, the Lord God. Do we then need to say that the Father is not Lord? No, there isn't just one Lord. The Father is Lord but he is not the one Lord mentioned in this verse.

True Christians recognize there are two true Lords:

• (1) the Lord Jesus
• (2) the Lord God, the God of the Lord Jesus.

For us there is one God, the Father, who is the Lord God. But also for us, in addition to the one God our Father, there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, the one whom God made Lord of all when He raised him from the dead.

The crux of the matter is this. The Father is our God and the God of our Lord, the Lord Jesus. Jesus is the Lord of us. When Paul says there is one God, the Father, Jesus cannot also be that one God. When Paul says there is one Lord, Jesus, the Father cannot be that one Lord, and He isn't. He is another Lord, the Lord and God of Jesus who made Jesus Lord when He raised him from the dead. The Lord Jesus has a Lord and God; the Lord God does not.

Paul's point is simply this. Pagans have many Gods and many Lords. They have BOTH of these things. But for Christians, we don't have many Gods, we only have one God, our Father. And we don't have many Lords in addition to that one God; we just have one Lord, Jesus Christ. The one God is the God of the one Lord, our Lord, Jesus. The pagans had many Gods and many Lords; they had BOTH of these things. And we have BOTH of these things: one God and one Lord. The pagans have many Gods plus many Lords; we have one God plus one Lord. Our one God is the God of our one Lord; our one God, the Lord God is the God and Lord of our Lord Jesus. The Lord Jesus has a Lord; the Lord God does not.

• Acts 4:26 - The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed’—

The Conclusion

Trinitarians have had 1600 years to dream up their contrivances and word tricks. This is just another of the many that have been crafted and devised. The suggestive trick here is to imply Paul is referring to how many God and Lords actually exist and to insist that if there is only one Lord then both Jesus and the Father must be that one and same Lord. But that is the problem. They are not the one and same Lord. The Lord God our Father made Jesus into a Lord when He raised him from the dead. By definition, this Lord cannot be the same Lord as the Father.

Paul's point is that "for us" Christians we have two things:

• (1) one God: the Father, plus (2) one Lord: Jesus Christ, just as the pagans have two things
• (1) many gods, and (2) many lords.

The "one Lord" in view here can hardly be God since the one God is the God of this one Lord. Moreover, the Lord Jesus has a Lord and God and the Lord God does not.

The one Lord is the Head of every man, Christ, and the one God here is the Head or Lord of Christ, the Father. Jesus said that no one can serve two Lords or he will love the one and hate the other. However, it is clear that he means we cannot serve two different Lord with different agendas because we would have to choose which one to serve. But this does not occur with our Lord Jesus and his Lord, God the Father. Not only so, the Head of every man is Christ and the Head of Christ is God. Our Lord is the one we are directly serving: Jesus, the one whom God put in charge, and his Lord is God the Father.

Scholars such as Murray Harris have stated that one cannot say, "God is Jesus," or that would be saying God is only Jesus. Every once in awhile Trinitarians forget their own lies. If you can't say "God is Jesus" then why could Paul say the one God is the Father? For the very reason that Murray Harris states: that would be saying God is only the Father. Yes, that is what Paul's words mean. Paul is telling us precisely who our one God is. Trinitarians don't care for that too much. For Trinitarians, there is one God, the Triune Being; for Christians, there is one God, the Father. Our one God is the God whom Jesus came to reveal, his God, the Father, the God of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Source - The Bible, Brother Kel, Christian History

• QUOTE: I do believe the most important fact is that we all know for certain how Jesus interpreted the Shema and he did not interpret it as Trinitarians do. Jesus was required to obey the Shema command. We know for certain how he interpreted this commandment by how he obeyed it. He obeyed it by only serving one person as his God. Hence, we know how he interpreted the Shema. He shows us that it is about one single person - his Father. The King of these Jews showed his subjects how to obey this command. This is so significant since it shows us how every Israelite was expected to obey this commandment. It says, "Hear O ISRAEL, the Lord OUR God." Jesus didn't get to obey this command one way and his fellow Jesus another way. For Jews, including Jesus, this commandment was about "OUR God" and Jesus demonstrated beyond any doubt that the one God of Israel is just one person - his Father. We know this because for him OUR God was the Father alone, the only person he recognized and served in order to obey this commandment. This fact is all that is needed to demonstrate that there is no such thing as a three person God. It amazes me that people can be so blind to the simple fact that Jesus shows us ever so vividly that the Trinitarian interpretation of this verse is completely wrong. We don't even need the account from Mark 12 to realize these facts.
• Other: Even those who agree and disagree with Jehovah's Witnesses on some points, such as Buzzard, are well aware of what Paul's affirmation of the foremost commandment, The Shema, is even about and what it means, in addition to what Apostle Paul's views were, and I am sure them, as well as our JW friends here, also agree on what Paul was trying to convey in this passage and what he has affirmed, as well as what Paul had stated in his epistles (letters).
• FACT: Most Christains, as well as Jews and even Muslims, both Sunni and Shia, understood what Apostle Paul was trying to convey, hence why such persons also affirm the Shema to this day. Some who are born into it and die in their death bed by it.

 

 

 

9 hours ago, Cos said:

wall of text

Thank you for pointing that out but unlike what you are doing I do not twist the meaning of a verse, however, what has been stated does not answer the question posed before, of which you refuse to give answer to, for in reality, there is no answer. Real Christian Theology and a respect to Biblical hermeneutics shows that the only God is the Father, no one else but.

That being said, when the gospel is being preached, there is no way one will believe that the Holy Spirit is a Person, but rather was what is described pertaining to the Holy Spirit, according to the scriptures and the epistles of Paul, in addition, such ones, even lowly ones recognize that the only God, according to scripture, is the Father. Thus making the Holy Spirit as a person, this doctrine only to come from a single camp in Christendom.

Your next problem would be people speaking when bestowed with the Spirit.

But what many fail to see nowadays is what the bible think, the ones who starve for the gospel itself, and believe me, there are some people who are paying attention, watching even.

Somewhat off topic,

An example I can give, as told by a JW I know who is of Dominican descent (has a heavy  Hispanic accent), is spreading the gospel on a farm to the workers, mind you, how these farms are and the work and the people present, is rather questionable, for the man who sees this for the first glance would think of and assume modern slavery (which can be agreed and disagreed upon by some), it may look it, but these people are getting paid, probably not as much as the average teenager working a part-time job at a Burger King or the like. These people have had only two groups that come to their farm, members of the Jehovah's Witnesses, and you have the Temple of Christ Church members, they both have come into contact with each other on the farmland on several occasions, the only ones to interface with each other is those who are clearly not 100% American - bounded by culture has its perks. They both seek out people who are on their break and have free-time to spare, they both preach the gospel, but JWs have more people who speak the language of those on the farm, broken french/french, Spanish and English while the Temple of Christ folk only spoke English, and of course, spent most of their time shouting from a location they remain stationary. The people paid more attention to the message in regards of the bible that JWs are speaking and utilizing, for what the people notice is that not only JWs come in pairs, but they hold the bible in their hands and whatever they say is from the bible itself be it the message they are conveying or whatever publication they give to the person (in their language of course), while the Temple of Christ folk sends one person to an individual or a group of people or remain stationary and shout to the top of their lungs, they have a paper with bible verses on it, the JW stated it had questions more direct to how ToC deems Jesus as God as well as the Spirit, one question on that paper even states how to avoid burning in hell forever, something of the sort. As for the conclusion, the workers on the farm tend to stick to the message the JWs are preaching in regards of the gospel, for they learned that God is the Father of Jesus Christ while the Temple of Christ taught quite the confusing message of the Trinity, that God is the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, 3 Gods if you will, as you can see clearly a gospel that does not make sense or connects to scripture will not win the attention and hearts of those who strongly believe that God exist but lack a level of reading and or writing ability. That alone should tell you something. In addition, the owner of the farmland allowed both groups to hold meetings outside, the Temple of Christ got Sundays while JWs got Saturdays, and more people attended the Saturday meetings vs that of the Sunday ones, again, this should tell you something.

At this point, such people do not focus on religious leadership or the like, they are more in-tuned with the message itself, what is true to the very scriptures itself and nothing else. It is uncertain if said people attend the JW church since if the farmers move, they move also, but the message was still sent and received at this point. As far as I know, a lot of not 100% American JWs are present at these farms and relate to the workers there very quickly.

That being said, it is evident that people out there want the gospel that is true to scripture, even farmers who not the best at reading and writing at times, who believe God exist, want to hear the gospel and it seems they stuck to the JWs vs that of ToC.

As for the farmers and the workers, how it is today (this is not your typical ma and pa or ol' McDonald type of farms) these are farms that have quite the work conditions, as well as living conditions that are not the best at times, I believe a while back someone said they went to visit to take pictures and saw workers their cutting their own hair, like a mini-barbershop, as well as seeing a mother, a worker at the farm, who has her kids with her, things of that nature. These workers are usually hauled up in buses and relocated to other locations during the season, you an find people like this during this season and summer, but late summer these farms close up, it is also believed that few people who do not have a US citizenship tend to be working at these farms and are by themselves or accompanied by relatives, and or friends who take them under their wing. Such farms existed throughout the United States.

In my personal opinion, these farms are technically modern day slavery, to some degree, but ironically these farms are open for the public to go visit, which becomes a focus for religious figures since 100%of the workers tend to be God seeking people. The JW who spoke to me about this stated the young man he was preaching to, 19 of age at the time, he was able to help him get a better job, clearly these two have become friends.

At the end of the day, it should be in us to know there are people who not only want to know who God is, but what the gospel as well, nothing misleading or some outlandish doctrine that is nowhere in scripture, such ones should not be ignored, let alone those who clearly do not know who God is, who is Son is, or what of the Kingdom. Jesus was very clear and concise in what he said in John 17, in order to gain eternal life, we must come to know God and who the Son is.

The one good thing is that flamethrowers were not involved.

3 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

... at least He done that twice in big, huge scale ... and several times in local need for "punishment" or "giving lesson" or "giving example" and so on. 

... by that, perhaps entire nation (with every single person: male, female and child) was wicked through all the history of Old Jew nation??

Punishment in regards of not abiding by God's law and or what his Son had commanded. As explicit as it may, it goes for everyone, as if the scriptures has not may this clear - especially when it came to those who were clearly not a fan of the Israelites. The righteous, meek and upright clearly excluded, for God knows who is for him and who is not.

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

No, never heard of her. I'd like to hear more, although I give full disclosure below about my leanings in most of these matters:

I have recently seen that a lot of fundamentalist religious groups and others, too, have had pseudo-religious conspiracy theories surrounding the League of Nations, and more recently, of course, concerning the United Nations (or both). I have become a serious doubter of most of these ideas, mostly due to the nature of conspiracy theories. There are dozens of competing theories, and none of them can ever be proven wrong, which is pretty much the nature and definition of religious conspiracy theories.

This woman goes by the name Alice A. Bailey.

Some Information: Alice and Foster Bailey founded the Lucis Trust in 1922. Its activities include the Arcane School, World Goodwill, Triangles, a quarterly magazine called The Beacon, and a publishing company primarily intended to publish Bailey's many books. The Arcane School gives instruction and guidance in meditation, via correspondence, based on the ideas in Bailey's books. World Goodwill is intended to promote better human relations through goodwill which they define as "love in action". That "action" included support of the United Nations. The "Triangles" are groups of three people who agree to link up in thought each day and to meditate on right human relations, visualising light and love pouring into human minds and hearts, followed by the use of the Great Invocation. It is not necessary for each person to link in thought at the same time each day and need only take a few moments of time. Alice and Foster Bailey founded, "Lucifer Publishing Company". ("'Lucifer' and 'Lucis' come from the same word root, lucis being the Latin genitive case meaning of light."[3] After the first two or three years, the name was changed to "Lucis Publishing Co." (The Theosophical Society also used the name "Lucifer" for its early magazine.) In 1923, with the help of Foster Bailey, Alice Bailey founded the Arcane School, which is part of Lucis Trust. This school provides educational correspondence, meditation instruction, and guided study based on her writings. Bailey continued to work up to the time of her death in 1949.

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Bailey

https://www.lucistrust.org/books/about_alice_a_bailey

Lucis Trust to this day still exist and is well knitted with the United Nations and those who are sponsored: https://www.lucistrust.org

 

7 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Symbolism and conspiracy. The Luciferian connection would be no different than the Freemason, or the Illuminati connection in the U.N.

The same connection that ex-witnesses distinguish when fools attempt to sway the argument, the Watchtower Founder was a “freemason” just because he mentioned the sect as a religion rather than a secret society.

Where did the Freemasonry derive from, if not the Knights Templar? Who, recruited those people if not the Vatican? However, black magic can be seen how far in man’s history.

How about Theosophy? That derives from Gnosticism and Neoplatonism. The Greek Theos “god” and Sophia “wisdom”, or divine wisdom, that is seen as an influence in the halls of the united nation.

They say some UN directors like Robert Muller, and Maurice Strong were Luciferian’s. But the Vatican as an active NGO with a true voice has had a hand on both the League of Nations and the United Nations. Therefore, Satan’s conquest will have many elements, not just one.

 

As bizarre it may sound, it is indeed true, of whom I speak of indeed has had a role in the UN/LoN until her death and her legacy continues. The group in question that bares her legacy is Lucis Trust, a nonprofit service organization incorporated in the United States in 1922 and it runs a blog, "World Goodwill at the UN", which focuses on defining new Sustainable Development Goals for humanity, but it is evident of how such a person left an imprint in what the UN is today, for this woman's inspiration of origin comes from Helena Blavatsky of Theosophical Society, perhaps above and beyond Freemasonary. Other then that the influence of such people by means of their legacy is quite the dangerous one, even to JWs, for such a group tends to do a lot more harm to Christians who are unaware than the very opponents of said faith.

Yes, JW opponents tend to equal JWs to Freemasonry, but clearly JWs and or the Watchtower is anything but, in fact, Freemasons have a hatred for Jehovah's Witnesses and will hop on the bandwagon should any JW do something so they can express the same action as that of the JW opponents. The reality is, of what was mention previous JW opponents will easily be swayed to side with such people, this was the case with one JW opponent who claimed he believes in healing people by touching them, and this individual has dwell in Freemasonry and Mysticism while adding Christianity into the mix and he has been trying to convert people to his views.

I do not see Robert Muller or Maurice anything of the like, however, these people are pawns to the deep state, for everyone in government and politics are pawns, even their own enemies such as Syria and Russia, Iran, pawns and more pawns to something that is unseen and unknown to most of the world, only a selective few who can see by means of connecting the dots will point out this very truth.

As for the Vatican, out of all sponsored NGOs, there is one. I wouldn't say the Vatican is the head honcho of this specific NGO that is literal on a religious conquest for peace, but at the same time it would seem as it is, for the Pope, Francis, is the the face, the front, of this UN sponsored NGO. Not a lot of people realize that Elijah Interfaith exist, and that its founder is Israel. As we speak everything pertaining to unity and religion, including religious leaders, are all part of Elijah Interfaith and it is growing, the UN put the Pope in quite the unique position, then you have the other branches such as Kairos and several others.

A tad bit off topic, but somewhat related to League of Nations / United Nations

One thing for certain that may slip by or not cross the minds of some people is that the League of Nations/United Nations had very odd component added to them. Not sure if any of you are familiar with mystic-loving Luciferian Arcanist that had a role in the LoN/UN, one of them in particular that is said to be the Spiritual Mother of the UN, to which that main head honcho, the UN has taken legacy of this woman's work, mind you, so and so is not a fan of Christians or religious people at the time, and it is said people like her usually infiltrate the churches and somehow influence or mess them up from the inside, like a virus entering the body of a human being, if you will.

Today, the unity of religious faiths is far easier for UN so that they can control it - hence the actions of the Pope, for any religious group that is willing to side with the UN on decisions are the ones to watch out for.

52 minutes ago, Matthew9969 said:

The end already came.....and went, then came again...then went, then came again.....doh! no it didn't, maybe 2034? Have a wonderful day!

 

Last I check the end has not occurred - yet. But the whole deal with nations and the mobilization of religious leaders is something rather interesting and at the same time rather telling, which speaks volumes compared to what is said by those in support and as well as those who partook in what went down in the last several years in regards to religion. But as I stated before, not everyone is paying attention to these things and or unaware, and what has been taking place in the world of religion, clearly little to no one here is aware of it either. That being said, I do not know if you are making a joke or not, but just know there are people, less fortunate than you, who do not take such things as a joke, mainly if they take the bible seriously, I am sure American Christians understand how Christians overseas feel, mainly when nations are at times in their business. Speaking of 2034, there has been talk about religious globalization by the year of 2030, around that time, due to the state of mainstream Christianity, people leaving the church, mind you, this excludes Christian minorities because they are not the affected, is on the decline, for the talk of unity has been known early 2000s, around years later said unity has been in profess of religious leaders joining forces, some of them who didn't like each other originally, but now accept each other, 2014-2015 said unity and various movements connected to the sole group in question have been rallying people of all faiths around the globe, in the US alone, thousands upon thousands was recorded via partaking and or being for said event, which connects back to the religious leaders around the world. Fast forward to now, Christianity is at a decline as this movement works on to convert and rally more people, Texas will be the next target this fall, and of course those they will go for are the ones obviously blind, while the Americas, Christianity is also going down and it is deemed not White enough, as they say, the list goes on.

You do not see it, but some see it, myself influenced, since I am well aware of Kairos and several others, as well as the whole protest is not over nonsense with Catholics and Protestants, an the like.

Other then that, it isn't a time to be slacking around at all, for the bible itself makes it clear for us to be vigilant and not be caused to stumble, and when a time does arrive, endurance is key - literally, for times before the end times will be very very devastating and hard to deal with, situations will be far worse, the same for each individual and household, perhaps far worse than the same household mind you. People will be scouring food like its Black Friday, minus the electronics. And clearly during such a time religion and or practice of said religion clearly not of the nation, will subject you to persecution, and it will not be pretty, especially if you are a male, for we have had examples in the past.

So it will be quite serious before the conclusion, 2 Timothy 3:1-17 is but one of many examples in scripture. And when the Christ does indeed come, he will not bring peace, no, he will bring a sword, and we all know what swords can do (they don't tickle either), and with said sword he will carry out justice in his Father's name and of course doing so by means of Shalach Principle, since God did give Jesus power and authority, as well as making him the chef agent of the angels, God's army, so therefore, it will be quite the calamity and those among the righteous, the meek and the upright will clearly be the ones to survive such a day.

Matthew 10:34 - “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword." - Jesus

That being said, just next time know there is people out there who are very serious of such things and awaiting for God to allow the Christ to return again, to vanquish evil from the face of this earth, but such people who do not take the bible seriously will not even think of such or but in mind that their own brothers and sisters out there are indeed serious. 

In Noah's day, people were fooling around with him, but they got what was to come, the same in regards to those who were told not to return to the city, and such people ended up has targets to their very enemies.

A serious Christian take bible matters very serious, mainly when it comes to the end times and tribulations.

1 hour ago, Gone Away said:

Surely this request in Rom15:30 (by the way) is best understood in comparison with Galatians 5:22 which indicates love to be a fruitage or (result, product) of the operation of God's holy spirit? And that love would be a driving force in the response of Christians who would pray to God on Paul's behalf for the success of his ministry in behalf of Jerusalem?

Someone who understands the message that is being conveyed in this verse. But clearly Cos will not accept it, he will deflect and go around what is true with his own man-made interpretation and state this verse is of personality when clearly it is entirety different; not being read in full context. Other then that Apostle Paul makes it clear and concise in this regard.

2 hours ago, Cos said:

When asked to “look at the cross-reference for Romans 10:30 (2 Co. 1:11, Eph. 6:18, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25)” I am happy to do so.

It's Romans 15:30, not Romans 10:30. Romans chapter 10 only has a total 21 verses. If you are not happy to look at the cross-references, granted you have been using the 1984 from the beginning and backing away from it, vice versa, why you choose now to look at them and not for the other verses? Would have saved you the trouble, now wouldn't it?

2 hours ago, Cos said:

Now the claim goes “see, they clearly do not prove personality of the Spirit”. Lets note that there is only one passage that actually mentions the Spirit, Eph. 6:18, which is referring to when real Christians pray, and these prayers, we recognize elsewhere, are assisted by the Person of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:26-27, Jude 1:20).

None of the cross-references to Romans 15:30 claims personality, as you claim, for originality you never once mentioned the verses that I have provided, your response would have been very different if I had not edited in those cross-referenced verses. Oh yes, Ephesians 6:18 is referring to Real Christians, yet you were total ignoring and was against it in your other thread regarding "claims" if you do not remember. I brought up verses from both Ephesians and Colossians in regards to True Christians, you deemed said things as incorrect and claimed falsehood until your very words was shown before you. I suggest you take a look at what you said and come back here with a different response about True Christians, you are contradicting yourself here oppose to your own thread elsewhere.

Here we go, you are using Romans 8 once again, when information on said verse was already stated, you keep going back and forth making claims of personality when according to Paul he knew the Holy Spirit was a gift from God, not a literal person. For if Paul were to profess that the Holy Spirit is a Person, he would not have said what he said in 1 Corinthians 8:6 regarding affirmation, in addition, 2 Corinthians 4:7 would look very different in our bibles.

Also Jude 1:20 does not prove personality, look what the verse says exactly: But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit,

You are doing the very things God told people not to do, what Jesus said what cannot be done and what Peter stated about those changing scripture. Come on, Cos, at this point you do not have a floor under you when it comes to truth vs falsehood.

2 hours ago, Cos said:

Clearly the claim that these verses (2 Co. 1:11, Eph. 6:18, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25) disprove that the Holy Spirit is a Person is NOT a valid one.

They don't prove personality, if you read what Paul was trying to convey, you'd understand. I merely posted cross-references, for if I had not, you would not have any clue of these verses, there is one verse I left out on purpose, which further proves my point.

2 hours ago, Cos said:

So I will repeat that in Romans 10:30 we have “love” ascribed to the Holy Spirit. Any doubter would do well to stop and ponder those five words, “the love of the Spirit.” A personification as some claim would be meaningless here, and substituting power for Spirit would be an utter absurdity!

Romans 10 does not go beyond its verse count, Cos. That absurdity is that you are not even looking into your bible fully and merely glancing and trying to create a Frankenstein monster out of any Trinity source you put your hands on.

Look at Romans chapter 10 and see for yourself, it does not exceed to verse 30 as you are pushing, it only goes up to verse 21:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+10&version=ESV

This just proves you are adding to the scriptures, something that God is clearly against, what Jesus was against, as well as Paul and Peter.

2 hours ago, Cos said:

It never ceases to amazes me that there are people that read Matthew 28:19 and yet deny that the Holy Spirit is a Person.

Christian baptism as designated in Matthew 28:19 is an act of religious worship, in which the person being baptized is obligated to believe in, worship, and serve the only true God. The apostles of Christ had been taught that there was but one God; and yet they were commanded to baptize into the name of three distinct persons—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Mark the fact: Christ did not say "the names," but "the name." 

Oh here we go with the 28:19 nonsense. First off, The originate of Baptism didn't start with Matthew 28:19, so I suggest you take a look at baptism origin and history, for how it was done then and to the days of Jesus will totally destroy your Triune belief in regards to Baptism and as to why John baptizes his people in this fashion. Secondly look exactly what Matthew 28:19 and look into how the Baptism was done by the Apostles. The verse specifically states that they are to baptism in the name of the Father, the name of the Son, and the name of the Holy Spirit.

There is a clear recognition of the Father, who is the True God, for he is our Creator and life giver (Psalms 36:7, 9, Revelations 4:11) Moreover, the scriptures also shows that no human can gain salvation without recognizing the role of the Son in God’s purpose and plan. (John 14:6, Ac 4:12). It is also important to recognize the role of God’s Holy Spirit because God uses His Spirit to give life (Job 33:4), to inspire his message to all of mankind (2 Peter 1:21), and to empower them to do His will (Romans 15:19). People such as yourself believe that this supports the Trinity doctrine, the Bible indicates at all that the three are equal in eternity, power, and position, and ever will and you cannot prove it at all because the very scriptures of the bible will cause your silly claims to backfire. The fact that they are mentioned together in the same verse does not prove that they share divinity, eternity, and equality, evident to the degree when we also check out Mark 13:32, Colossians 1:15 and 1 Timothy 5:21.

In addition, if one was honest with themselves in the Origin of Baptism, they can see for themselves and recognize in contrast to Matthew 28:19. Clearly you lack in this degree of knowing such information, as to why the people pass from one side to another regarding Baptism.

2 hours ago, Cos said:

A few brief remarks here, the Biblical Trinity is not three separate Gods, but a unity of three distinct persons in one God.

Yet you said earlier the Holy Spirit is not just a person, but is God. You also called Jesus God before, and believe that the Father is God. Technically, you got 3 Gods, Cos. Last I check, Christians are not followers of Attis, and never will be. Real Christians believe in one God who is their Father

Micah 2:10 - Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers?

again, you have people in bible times who affirmed Shema, the acknowledgment of having one God who is their Father, to be heard by this God. They know God is One, they know God is True, and even in their laws, they even state God is not like a man or a son of man. Therefore, you thinking God is 3 or that there is 3 Gods is absurd.

2 hours ago, Cos said:

In the form of administering baptism the doctrine of the Trinity is unequivocally taught. No superiority or difference in rank is mentioned as appertaining to either of the Three, and all of them are spoken of in parallel terms.

And yet we see your previous comments.

2 hours ago, Cos said:

It is therefore impossible to suppose that, while the Father is self-existent, eternal, and omnipotent, the Son should be a mere creature, or, that the Holy Spirit should be a mere power or force, without any personal existence. Yet this what some sadly read into this verse.

Friend, this has nothing to do with Jesus being a creature, a Spirit, a man, etc. Jesus makes it clear to us who the Father is, the Father is his God, and your God. I do not see why you are so dense about the obvious truth, then again, Trinitarians do not like truth and will try to twist Scripture to fit their views vs that of the bible, or in other matters, will try to brush over the oldest source that the scriptures originates from.

The Holy Spirit is described as it is in the bible, a force, hands, fingers, wind, breathe, mouth, voice, etc. it is even refereed to as a HE because the Christ and others who are male spoke of it, yet nowhere in scripture that the Holy Spirit is deemed a person, hence why I asked you a question - a question you keep dodging or evading, even John the Baptism, his Father and Father were witnesses of the Holy Spirit's power, never have they said anything of the Holy Spirit being a person, in addition, we see also in scripture people speaking by means of the Holy Spirit, nowhere it is indicated that the Holy Spirit is a person or being, for it it WAS, it would have been stated clearly in the bible. Your next problem is with what Jesus said about the Day and the Hour, if God only knows this day and hour of judgement, why is Jesus and everyone else ignorant of knowing? Let alone you claim the Holy Spirit is God and a Person, you show no indication that said person is all knowing in this judgement day. For if God the Father only knows, that further proves the point that the Father is the only God.

2 hours ago, Cos said:

The very form, indeed, running in the name—not names—of the Three, shows that the authority of all three is the same, their power equal, and their glory One.

God has the highest authority. Jesus has authority and power because God gave it to him, read Matthew 28:18 where it states clearly.

• And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

If the Holy Spirit was a person, surely it would have been mention that A, it has an authority over something or someone and B, it would have been stated that this so called person of yours has a throne, but clearly it does not, as we already know, God has the Lord, the Christ, at his right hand, Jesus clearly has a throne next to God the Father.

Even the words of David makes it abundantly clear in Psalms 110:1

The LORD [YHWH/Jehovah] says to my Lord [Jesus]: “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”

This same verse (part A of course) is later called back on in Romans 8:34, Ephesians 1:20, Hebrews 8:1, and Hebrews 12:2.

We know God has authority and he has given authority to the Son, Jesus. I rather you not add to the scriptures, it only makes you more in error.

2 hours ago, Cos said:

Real Christians have understood their baptism as obligating them to worship the Son and the Holy Spirit, as well as the Father.

Yes, Real Christians know this and the very connection to the origin of Baptism itself and what Matthew 28:19 means, pertaining to said origin. I rather not use the term Real Christians because in your other thread you said something totally different in regards to true Christians, some hint words would be dwelling, deity, being one, etc. You didn't know what makes a True Christian until the very verses was presented to you at the very end, in addition to your twisting of words and scriptures as proof of you adding uninspired to inspired things, Cos.

Do yourself a favor and look up what Baptism is and its history and how it applies to what is said in Matthew 28:19, you may also take a look at my response to Matthew who posted a thread of Baptism, you know, the thread I linked before whereas you were not able handle said truth.

2 hours ago, Cos said:

The disciples of Christ have a mandate which is to baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching those to observe all that He commands until the end of the age; and thus by Jesus’ own words this fully proves the co-equality of each of the Three Persons. <><

Jesus' words do not prove the Trinity doctrine, as I said before, Jesus from birth, to childhood, to his teens to adulthood affirmed the Shema, Jesus claim to have a God several times in scripture that we are to worship religiously of God, who is his Father, your Father and my Father. Clearly you do not understand Jesus' own words, for if you had, you recognize what he was trying to convey and later on, in addition, the actions of the Apostles in regards to Baptism, example, Acts 1 and 2, the very chapters in Acts you ignored time and time again in the last discussion.

And yet the question still stands Cos, because clearly everyone here would like to see this answer also, be it a member here or a guest:

Show me anywhere in the Greek New Testament (regardless of translation) where the Holy Spirit is recognized as God/a Being/a Person let alone being co-equal with the Father and the Son? Perhaps this so called person's throne as well? You calm the Holy Spirit to be God or a literal being/person, so you must also address - if the Holy Spirit is God, as you claim, why is it the Spirit is ignorant of the day and hour? Granted Jesus himself stated no one knows the day or hour expect the Father in Mark 13:32. Do not use neutered modifiers and what HS is described as because you did this several times already - and failed. You have to point out a clear verse that the Spirit is a Person/Being/God.

 

Clearly this will continue to be asked of you every time you dodge and or deflect said question. Games are for children, and no one here is trying to play games, mainly when it comes to those who are in total dishonesty of what the Holy Spirit is.

@NicholasMarks Yeah, and the Romans were against and willing to "have their way" with those who don't believe what they believe, even though the Romans technically remixed Christianity into something it is not, mainly when you have people like Theodosius II who will be the one to draw the sword on you before you can even react -  during those times.

Eventually a time will come in our day and age where things will be cranked up to max regarding persecution and those siding with the nation's religion and are against those not for them. Out side of religion (technically), the UK pulled something that can and will cause problems, imagine that when it is in regards to Christianity, but at a grander scale around the globe - that will eventually come.

58 minutes ago, Cos said:

We find the personality of the Holy Spirit in many passages of Scripture and in one such passage this is brought out in a most poignant way in Rom. 15: 30 where Paul says, “I appeal to you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf.”

Here we have “love” ascribed to the Holy Spirit. Any doubter would do well to stop and ponder those five words, “the love of the Spirit.” A personification as some claim would be meaningless here, and substituting power for Spirit would be an utter absurdity.

Christians, real Christians dwell often upon the love of the Father, we also dwell often upon the love of the Son. And true Christians dwell upon “the love of the Spirit”. <><

Look at the cross-references for Romans 15:30 (2 Co. 1:11, Eph. 6:18, Col. 4:3,  1 Thess. 5:25) and see, they clearly do not prove personality or the Spirit being a person - stop adding to the Word and technically you just used that bible verse against yourself, backfiring. Stop avoiding the main question at hand, Cos. Like I said, Paul affirmed the Shema so using anything he wrote will not help you here, let alone his awareness of the law of the mind.

 

Next time you bring up True Christians, please take a good look at your own thread in controversial posts and what you said. I rather not equal your claim here about being a True Christian when it is drastically different on the thread in question, I rather not put you under an even bigger spotlight by quoting you from said thread.

49 minutes ago, Cos said:

The Holy Spirit is the object of our faith. We believe on the Holy Spirit. This faith we profess in baptism Matt.28:19. We are baptized not only in the name of the Father and of the Son, but also of the Holy Spirit.

You've been asked to prove in scripture if the Holy Spirit is a person, you posted Matthew 28:19, as your proof, when it says no such thing. I know what the Holy Spirit is and how it is important to our faith, I know enough to see that this verse does not prove that the Holy Spirit is a Person or a God, as you claim, if you have forgotten.

49 minutes ago, Cos said:

The very association of the Spirit in such a connection, with the Father and the Son, as they are admitted to be distinct persons, proves that the Spirit also is a Person. Besides the use of the word “into the name”, admits of no other explanation.

There we go again, adding things into the verses when the bible does not say. We know God is the Father because the bible says so, we know Jesus is the Son because the Bible says so, we know what the Holy Spirit is and what is can do because the Bible says so. The bible speaks of both the Son and the Father being persons, the bible also makes it clear of the obvious affirmation of the Shema, mainly according the Apostle Paul who knew the Law of the Mind.

No further explanation as you just claim, yet the verse contains cross-references, and it is direct to the very origin of the Baptism - for that alone is another stacked obstacle against you, Cos.

49 minutes ago, Cos said:

Christians stand in the same relation to Him as to the Father and to the Son ; we acknowledge Him to be a Person as distinctly as we acknowledge the Personality of the Son, or of the Father. <><

Not all Christians, because not everyone believes in 3 Gods, or a Triune God, as you have, for you claim the Father is God, Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God, yet the bible speaks solely of One God, who is the Father of Jesus, to be ignorant  of this scriptural fact just shows your unwillingness to learn what the bible actually says and stick to the notion of 3 Gods. You can have 3 Gods if you want, for me, I believe in 1 God who is true, something I address to you strongly before.

In the end, for the ladies and gentlemen of this thread who reads this, the spotlight is on you in regards to the question, Matthew 28:19 is not the verse that proves the Holy Spirit is a Person, try again.

I am this close to a strong confutation regarding the Holy Spirit, let us hope it does not come to that point, in the meantime, the question requires answer, so do your research carefully before you respond again.

Also, If you are completely blind of what the cross-references to that verse is, it is Ephesians 1:20,21 and Philippians 2:9,10, the same ones you ignored months ago.

Real Christians believe in one Father, who is One God, they believe that the Father sent the Son to teach us for Jesus is the prophet who speaks the word of God (Deuteronomy 18:18, John 1:1) and by himself Jesus cannot do nothing, for the Father is the one who abides in him and enables Jesus to do what he does, the same God and Father was also the one who raised Jesus from the dead, placed him on his right hand and is the same God who will make Jesus' enemies a footstool under his feet. Real Christians have not just Jesus, but also God dwelling in them, and they are able to do the works and build up their faith because of the Father's Spirit, the Holy Spirit being upon them.

 

You can laugh all you want, it is because you have nothing in regards to the question because it cannot be found. Unlike some, I do not idle around to see someone speak with sheer dishonesty about the Holy Spirit.

37 minutes ago, Cos said:

Matt. 28:19

silly Cos, that verse says the following: Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

This verse speaks of the  making disciples in the name of the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit, there is no indication of the Holy Spirit being a person here (and it does not address the question at hand), I said this to you before and in a thread that is solely about this verse and I stated the following via source (FACTThe Scriptural facts show us that Trinitarians are not only disregarding the immediate context, they are imagining their doctrine into the text. Again, cross-references to this verse defeats your claim dead in its tracks. And you seem to somewhat contradict yourself here vs there in this link.

 

We know God is a person, we know Jesus is a person, both of them literal, even Jesus speaks of his Father as a person who has a place of dwelling. The question regarding the Holy Spirit is all on you, since you claim that the Holy Spirit is a Person and God, literally.

Look at the question, read it and bring forth a verse that pertains to the question.

Show me anywhere in the Greek New Testament (regardless of translation) where the Holy Spirit is recognized as God/a Being/a Person let alone being co-equal with the Father and the Son? Perhaps this so called person's throne as well? You calm the Holy Spirit to be God or a literal being/person, so you must also address - if the Holy Spirit is God, as you claim, why is it the Spirit is ignorant of the day and hour? Granted Jesus himself stated no one knows the day or hour expect the Father in Mark 13:32. Do not use neutered modifiers and what HS is described as because you did this several times already - and failed. You have to point out a clear verse that the Spirit is a Person/Being/God.

At the end of the day, it is one thing to speak ill of a scripture or a passage, but of the Holy Spirit, a correction is demanded.

EDIT: it has come to the conclusion that you cannot prove this by any means, and the fact that the link to thread also furthers my point.

Therefore, the Holy Spirit is not a person, the only people who claim the Holy Spirit is a Person are those who believe in a Triune God, and them alone, yet they cannot prove anything whereas John 14 and 16 being the basis to why the Holy Spirit, a neutered form is modified, as some who do not know their Greek will try to justify this is prove, when Greek Gender forms says otherwise.

40 minutes ago, Cos said:

The Scriptures present the Holy Spirit as a Person so many times, yet some dismiss those Scriptures as “personification” and then foolishly ask where in Scripture does it say that the Holy Spirit is a Person…this is typically irrational double talk based solely on an assumption that these passages are personification.

I will say again that it is exegetically problematic to claim that the Holy Spirit is a power when there are many passages of Scripture where all that needs to be done is substitute “power” for “Spirit” to see the absurdity of such an idea. <><

 

 

It will not be said again, so the question, once again, still stands for everyone here to see:

Show me anywhere in the Greek New Testament (regardless of translation) where the Holy Spirit is recognized as God/a Being/a Person let alone being co-equal with the Father and the Son? Perhaps this so called person's throne as well? You calm the Holy Spirit to be God or a literal being/person, so you must also address - if the Holy Spirit is God, as you claim, why is it the Spirit is ignorant of the day and hour? Granted Jesus himself stated no one knows the day or hour expect the Father in Mark 13:32. Do not use neutered modifiers and what HS is described as because you did this several times already - and failed. You have to point out a clear verse that the Spirit is a Person/Being/God.

Granted you like to take verses here and there and put them out of context and ignore cross-references, mainly with when you brought it up, this should be much of a brutal effort for you.

5 hours ago, Cos said:

Instead, the apostle Paul confirms for us that the Holy Spirit is a real Person by declaring that the Spirit possesses a mind (Romans 8:27).

Romans 8:27 does not prove the Holy Spirit is a Person, nice attempt but no cigar, Cos, especially when Apostle Paul has affirmed the Shema Yisrael several, if not about a dozen times in everything he has ever written, according to him - I can list the verses if you like but last time we discussed the Shema, you butchered it into some weird Frankenstein Monster and try to prove that one means three, now back to Paul, what he said is abundantly clear for even Peter recognized it an said the following about those who will try to change what Paul has written, as we read in 2 Peter 3:16

as he [Paul] does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

Jesus informed His followers that the Holy Spirit, which God the Father would send, “will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you” (John 14:26). It is through God’s Spirit that abides in us that we gain spiritual insight and understanding.In turn, we come to receive the very “mind of Christ” (1 Corinthians 2:16, also see Philippians 4:2) which is also a direct reference as the “mind of the Spirit” (Romans 8:27). The Christ had this spiritual comprehension in great abundance, for Jesus, as the Messiah, he was prophesied to have “the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord [YHWH]” (Isaiah 11:2).

We also know that Apostle Paul wrote and made it clear that God’s plan and or objective for all of mankind had been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets as seen in Ephesians 3:5, and that his own teachings were inspired by means of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:13). Apostle Paul further explains by means of his writings that it is through His Spirit that God has revealed to true Christians the things He has prepared for those who love Him (1 Corinthians 2:9-16). For working through the Spirit, the one Spirit that is the Holy Spirit, God the Father is the one who reveals the truth(revealer of truth) to those who serve Him. For God reveals His minds on the matter when Christians are to strive to know God (Romans 11:33, 16:26, 26) as well as having the mental attitude of both obedience and humility of the Christ,coming to have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:15, 16).

In addition, it is very evident as to Apostle Paul being well aware of the Law of the Mind.

Seems to be you are running our of options, Cos, and continue to show a strong lack of knowledge in this regard, again you pointed out cross-references, maybe should should start reading said cross-references to verses like this before you say something outlandish.

At this point, the Greek Strong's will not help you here nor the mixing of your man-based understanding of scripture, let alone the obvious bible hopping you are doing.

So the question still stands: Show me anywhere in the Greek New Testament (regardless of translation) where the Holy Spirit is recognized as God/a Being/a Person let alone being co-equal with the Father and the Son? Perhaps this so called person's throne as well? Since you believe the Holy Spirit is a person, a being as well as being God, you'd have to point this out via scripture, if not, it would seem you will just be pushing more and more nonsense to further your belief that holds no merit in an attempt to evade bringing up a single scripture. Playing games in this regard is for children, so the question demands an answer if you are people to think you are right.

FACT: God's Spirit can come upon someone, for there is no issue with that, but to claim that the Spirit is a person, a God/equal to is a completely false.

 

Also you stated:

Interesting how the Watchtower tries to cover how the word phronéma is understood in the NWT. In Romans 8:6-7 the NWT has the word “minding” at the other three places where phronéma appears but not in Romans 8:27, note how the word in Romans 8:6-7 clearly indicates the mindfulness or thought patterns of persons; worldly (fleshly) ones in contrast to those persons who are near to God. 

and

We also note in Romans 8:27 that there is a distinction between the first Person “who searches the hearts” and “knows” the thoughts of this other Person who in turn is pleading on behalf of the saints. <><

• 1. Not really, mainly if you look at the 4th century source. You are a Trinitarian, you do not believe in the 4th century source for it is fact that majority of Trinitarians take up the later sources that were obviously tampered with. Anyways it would only be a "cover-up" if mind, minding,mind-set, etc is not used and or not to the respects of G5427 only then the Watchtower would be in error if that was the case, but it is not. Other then that regarding the Holy Spirit, it has nothing to do with the Watchtower at this point of the  discussion, it is about a man claim this One Spirit to be a person, yet cannot bare any fruit of proof that the Spirit is a person. In the WT's case however, they even pointed to Jeremiah 11:20, which further defeats you claim. As for the Interlinear, I already address this to the other user here who goes by the name Witness, the source itself of the interlinear and how it matches up with the oldest source, not only defeats your claim, but kills it where it stands.

 

• 2. You may want to read chapter 8 in its entirety before making that claim, Cos... If Apostle Paul affirmed the Shema, the law of the Jews, several times, how can you say he is proving the Holy Spirit to be a person? If I am not mistaken, Paul had indeed had the Holy Spirit upon him, nowhere has he mention it to be a person, and his understanding about the Law of the Mind defeats your claim, in addition to Paul's clear affirmation of the Shema.

You gambled with Romans 8:27 and Apostle Paul and lost.

That being said, things like this makes me very close to posting something here that would prove total devastation to this notion and will leaving a lasting impact, I rather you answer the question instead of me posting in hermeneutics detail of both camps regarding the Holy Spirit (The person camp | the Power and Nature Camp) and it will not sit well with those who cannot handle the truth, but will be accepted by those who know truth, but it would seem someone people like to force one's hand.

Anyways,

So I will address this again, so maybe you will not evade it this time:

Show me anywhere in the Greek New Testament (regardless of translation) where the Holy Spirit is recognized as God/a Being/a Person let alone being co-equal with the Father and the Son? Perhaps this so called person's throne as well?

As a bonus, if the Holy Spirit is God, as you claim, why is it the Spirit is ignorant of the day and hour? Granted Jesus himself stated no one knows the day or hour expect the Father in Mark 13:32.

Do not use neutered modifiers and what HS is described as because you did this several times already - and failed. You have to point out a clear verse that the Spirit is a Person/Being/God.

7 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

It is both terminally sad, and actually funny, to see the Society's Lawyers speaking as one ... trying to explain that the obvious Elephant they are trying to hide under the beach towel is not really there.

Who knew that the Russians were AT LEAST as smart as the average amoeba?

 I mean .... who knew?

To be fair, the Jehovah's Witnesses were already deemed a target after being robbed by an ally of the church, and after the head of RoC came back from a spiritually powered journey in Antarctica, a bit after his meeting with the Pope, a historic meeting.

What you do not see is what the RoC is doing since the JWs are not on the streets, and what they are beginning to do to other Christians, technically, so to speak, holding a gun to their head or they will meet the same fate. The RoC has also expanded, for there was a group, who also have a channel now on YT that is working to expand the Catholic Church with the aid of anyone connected to the Pope, hence the whole talk about the One World Religion thing, clearly JWs and several others are not for this seemingly forced unity, hence they become targets.

Other then that it is odd that now Catholics, in robes, are going door to door in place of JWs, at times, if the complex is own by the church, they will come to your door to, kick you out if the rent is not paid, and they'll do it by force once you hear the knock, if not, expect the FSB to saw down your door, jump through your window, crash into your roof, rambo style, in order to arrest you.

I'll have to find my source again, and if I o I'll post it so you can see the situation in Russia for yourself.

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Even the U.S. Battleship "Missouri" has a name, and even an affectionate nickname "The Mighty Mo", but is referred to as a "she".

She sat in Tokyo Bay in 1945 and accepted the surrender of the Japanese Empire.

The above single sentence is so complex, yet in common usage as stated, that it disproves your last post in every way possible.

Apparently when you tell someone something, it goes into one ear and out the other. What bothers me the most is when people are clearly showing total dishonesty regarding the Holy Spirit, and there is one one camp of people who do such a thing, thus making Christianity a mockery around the globe and quickly declining because of it.