Space Merchant
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3 hours ago, Cos said:
Wall of Text
1 Corinthians 12:11 will not help you either, granted with what is said before that verse regarding Spiritual Gifts (Guidance by/Operations of the Spirit) in accordance to Apostle Paul, going into One Body with Many Members, verse 12 and onward, in addition to, once again, cross-references, let alone John chapter 16 as to why this is. If I am not mistaken some translations will use He/he/It/it will(s)/determine(s)/choose(s), the obvious ones are sticking true to the oldest source of which the bible is based off of, so we have translations like the Updated American Standard version that uses "it wills", The NCV just refers to "Spirit", so, moreover, some verses point back to passages in John, Acts and even 1 John, so many to list, which I will not do because why bother with someone who address cross-references but do not adhere to them. What kills it for you even more is Paul's affirmation of God and of Jesus in chapter 8, as well as what Paul had said in chapter 10 regarding the Christ.
But by your logic, Jerusalem, a City, is perhaps a literal female woman who is the mother of every man, woman and child who is with her and not a city after all. Luckily, everyone knows the City of Jerusalem, as I said before, is described as a woman in some passages, example (Jeremiah 33:16, Lamentations 1:1-7), does not make the literal city a person if called SHE, HER, WOMAN, MOTHER, the same way regarding the City of Israel is referred to as MALE, MAN, HE, HIM, example (Jeremiah 31:10), does not make the city of literal person and or man.
At the end of the day, the Holy Spirit can be and or refered to in respects to Greek gender forms, called a HE, SHE and or IT, nowhere is it proven, in biblical scripture, that this one Spirit is a person/Being or a God (clearly isn't having a throne or being seated near God - oh wait, you called the Holy Spirit a God, nevermind), nowhere, unless you can pull it out of the bible to prove otherwise - which I highly doubt from a Jay Smither.
That being said, you've yet to prove that The Holy Spirit is God and or a Person via scripture, let alone Jesus himself being God as you so dearly expressed before, so this still stands - rather you take to heart of this being asked of you rather than changing the subject to something other than what is being asked.
Again, where in scripture does it say that the Holy Spirit is a Person/God, let alone any passages whereas one called the Holy Spirit God and or a Person/Being? Do not used modifiers or what the Spirit is desired as because I already address you cannot use such to help your case, Cos.
The mental gymnastics you are pulling does not faze anyone and you continue to land flat on your back with every response and evasive maneuvers.
Also Greek Strong's Number 1014 βούλομαι (boulomai) has 37 occurrences, with 20 unique forms.
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55 minutes ago, Gone Away said:
His answer to that question is simple. No one knows the day or hour, only the Father. (Matt.24:36). So no sign was given to indicate that element. All the focus must be elsewhere to understand what was said.
Agreed. However the odd mobilization of Religious Leaders by means of movements, some of which to bolster more converts and the like is at least something to keep an eye on for these people are on the mental path of, You are either with us or against us, and clearly any church that is not for this movement, all branches that connect to a sole source, then you are deemed an enemy, for example, it is known by many the Jehovah's Witnesses are not into politics and or anything that affiliates to decisions made by such people for JWs are neutral, and clearly they do not take the stance of what the Religious Leaders who had joined together are doing, thus making them a target to some extent, the only clear example was when the talk about religious unity among all faiths was brought up, and those who are not for this joint effort are considered lost, blind or against, thus being branded as an enemy.
The Nations itself is already part of this Religious Movement, little by little since the early 2000s whereas around 2014-2017 religious leaders, most of them have joined forces, even more by means of Reformation whereas Baptist, Catholics and Methodist have joined in so the group is getting bigger, with the backing of politics as well as respective nations behind them, and the United Nations being the one planting the seeds to having their version of Religion, as well as their version of Education and Government, after all, the Spiritual Mother of the United Nations, long dead right now, had an obvious disinterest in Christians, as did those who had the same mindset as her and followed her, even those before her didn't like Christians, but clearly they didn't have the means like the Spiritual Mother of the UN, whereas her legacy continues by means of what the nations is doing in regards to Religion.
Meanwhile, The Bible itself, regardless of the translation at this point, has been called into question by those of today's society, in addition, in some areas in the US, the bible cannot be used and or read at all.
Lastly, if you live in the Texas area, said Religious Movement will pop up around October 2018 for their so called religious event, to reap more converts with the message they are spreading, as they did in Washington DC a while back, and obviously since the mainstream is so gullible, if said movement speaks of Jesus Christ, they follow it without hesitation, and these same folk will be the very people to do anything and everything in their power to treat you as an enemy, thus making them following consumed by the nation's so called one religion of unity, which is clearly a front for any moves people of Babylon will pull in the future.
All people have to be careful though, for they think they can avoid such things, but end up getting pulled into that madness, mainly when such madness consist of many, many false prophets.
I'd also like to add that the Russian Church who had involvement with the JW ban, is indeed part of this movement. The Ukrainians however were not cool with the RoC until later on, thus they too join said religious movement. The UN may not being attacking religion, per say, but they are molding a religion of their own (check out their 55th anniversary) by means of their so called messenger who had been rounding up and influencing religious leaders to unite, the UN will only react soon after when no other faith is willing to join their version of religion and or views, or as their supporter had said, "Instead of all these different Gods, maybe theirs one God who manifest himself in different ways to different people" ~ Ted Turner (The New Aged Concept of a Globe Religious Organization).
But yes, we have to be careful, we may not know the last day or hour, but we have to be careful of not being easily mislead by false prophets who are increasing in numbers now.
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There is a known thing going on behind the scenes, however, a majority of people do not know about such, I say this to you guys too as well as to Jehovah's Witnesses here, albeit, some people are aware of the situation hence the response from the Religious Movement seeking unity throughout the globe.
I am among those who know far too many things, the type of guy who is aware of the monster under the bed, so to speak. The only hint I can drop is money and oil as well as security and power at this point regarding nations, as for religion it is a conquest of peace and unity.
Keep your eyes on Israel and Saudi Arabia.
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43 minutes ago, Cos said:
Wall of Text
The Trinitarian Mental Gymnastics keeps on going, eh, perhaps the clowns in the small cop car are part of the show too, Cos?
John chapters 14 to 16 will not help you here, especially 16 that points to several passages to Acts.
I'll ask you again, prove via scripture that the Holy Spirit is a Person and or a Being, that passage in John has already been addressed because the speaker, JESUS (masculine), spoke of the HOLY SPIRIT (NEUTERED), and throughout the passage the neutered word is MODIFIED (neuter-masculine), I do not see why this has to be address, yet again, to a man who stated that his Greek is called into question. I already stated you cannot use modified gender form passages to prove so called personhood, you'll have to prove an actual passage and or scripture that the Holy Spirit is seen as a literal person (without the use of gender forms and or voice).
For even things and places, such as Jerusalem is refereed to as a SHE, HER, or MOTHER, and we all know Jerusalem is not a literal PERSON.
Example:
Galatians 4:26 - But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.
Try again or do not bother at all.
Also another factor is that parakletos is masculine, as well as a Noun: http://biblehub.com/greek/3875.htm
As for the recent response,
As well as accursed teachings, a chuck full of em. And blind leading the blind and many who are obliviously mislead.
You may want to look at the cross-references to 1 Timothy 4:1, it speaks of those with the Holy Spirit upon them speaking of what is inspired, nice try at best, but the cross-references gives us the information, you even suggested cross-references before and it would seem this time you jump from your 1984 NWT to another bible, perhaps the ESV, CSB or the HCSB at a guess.
No one is blaming Trinitarians for wars, however, some have sided with those of Kairos, The Reformation, the secular Religious folk, as well as the Together Movement, of which will take place in Texas in October 2018. Mot Trintiarians are conservatives, and are well mixed with world affairs, like the Jerusalem Decision which caused problems and a lot of blood at the hands of the allies of the conservatives, the young Palestine didn't deserve to be shot in the face, or the Assyrians didn't deserve to be abandon by allies to be given to ISIS, or the bodies of their people and their young being in the possession of Al-Jayism. A Real Christian would not delve way too deep into the political confinements of man, and a man of Christ would never be part of such things. Start acting like a Christian and read your bible, you spend too much time with your understanding of man regarding scripture than actually being immersed in it yourself and contradict everything and say something outlandish, thus proving not only you are a Trinitarian, but clearly blinded, you call the Holy Spirit God, and Jesus God and the Father God whereas a single Law from the Torah disproves 3 in 1 God believe very strongly, let alone to what Jesus recited as a child and to what the early Christians affirmed, such as what Paul addressed in 1 Corinthians 8:6, even to this day people live by this law, die by it too, to brush over its meaning with another doctrine is a clear disrespect to what the bible says and to what the laws that God made even says.
Again, God is not Triune, there is One God, that is the Father, Jesus address the Father who is his God several times in scripture, even that the Father is greater than he.
Examples:
- Matthew 27:46 - And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”
- John 14:28 - You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
- Luke 18:19 - And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
- John 20:17 - Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
- Revelations 3:2 - Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God.
Clearly God being mention separate from Jesus, in this examples like:
- Colossians 1:3 - We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,
- Galatians 1:1 - Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—
- Romans 10:9 - because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
- There is One God and One Christ, the Head of the Church is the Christ, the Head of the Christ, is the Father, God. God is the one who anoints, The chosen one, His Christ who is His Son, is the one who is anointed, the prophet that was to come to the people as in the Torah it even states this, Prophet Isaiah makes it clear as day for us to read.
- Nowhere in scripture that God is mentioned as a 3 in 1 Being.
- John 1:1 will not help you here, nor will Isaiah 9:6 (El Gibbor is not El Shaddai here) for we get a clear direct answer of the coming prophet as read in Deuteronomy 18:18, for this prophet who is the Seed of Abraham is the one who will speak God's Spoken Word for the Word is God an the Word is spoken through a man who is flesh, an this man is Jesus, not to mention the Timeline regarding John's Introductory,f or clearly John the Baptist never existed in the Old Testament.
- Nowhere in scripture that the Holy Spirit is seen as a Person or Being.
- Nowhere in scripture Jesus claim to be God for God cannot taste death (kill by his own creation), be fearful, or being unaware of the condition of a Fig Tree.
- Another reason why the Holy Spirit is not a person and or God is because only Jesus is, who is Lord also, is seated at the right hand of the Father, there is no 3rd throne for the clear personhood myth that is spouted by Trinitarians.
- Nowhere in the bible that is says God is a man, for the early Hew Old Testament clearly states God is not like a man or a son of man nor thinks like a man or a son of man, God is not even human, he is invisible, immortal, and clearly a Spirit and greater than anyone or anything and no one is equal and or above him, for He is Almighty God, the God and Father of Jesus Christ, the God and Father of me, the God and Father of you, and everyone who dwells on this earth, those who are alive and those who are dead, for God is not only a God of the living, but of the dead, for he has the power to bring those in death back to life.
- God cannot be seen and it is said that no one can see him and live.
- Nowhere in scripture young Jews recite the Old Testament of 3 Gods, they only recite and learn of the One True God of Israel. Jesus himself, as a child not only was he taught by Mary and Joseph, he learn about his Father who is His God, even going to His Father's temple when Mary and Joseph were looking for him for sometime.
- When he was circumcised on the 8th day, he was taken to the Tempe of his God, who is His Father.
You are clearly at fault here and you claim the Holy Spirit to be a person, yet you cannot prove personhood int he bible and will restore to passages of neutered words being modified, typical move for a man who is in the Holy Spirit is a Person Camp vs those who are no in such a camp.
That being said, you do not know your Greek or Hebrew, which is fact, you did the run around with John chapter 14/16 again after it has been address an the like. In the end, it is clear as to who is blind, the only mistake you haven't done was not only thinking of the Holy Spirit as a literal person and or a God as you claim, but a literal person having literal interactions with everything and everyone in the scripture, as a being, this belief is seen as detestable and there is a selected few people, regardless of Non-Trinitarian/Oneness/Trinitarian belief, they hold strong conviction to such and can and will be refuted dearly for such accursed teachings.
I want you to serious take a look at the gospel of Luke, read the passage I address earlier whereas Jesus was reading what Prophet Isaiah had wrote, look carefully of what was said of the Holy Spirit and check the cross-reference.
The dishonesty is very irritating to me and this was not the first rodeo of where you did this, and when such takes place, it requires, no, it demands correction, and it has to be made.
Lastly, such doctrines is the root of the decline of Christianity and the Traditions of man entering the church, perhaps you should look this up because it would seem you've been hiding under a wrong all this time in this regard.
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All we know is we do not know, but it is near. Like a thief in the night. Other then that, there is sheer seriousness in what is in play to what the world is not being informed about, hence why it is necessary to be very vigilante and be very careful of who we deem a friend and or foe.
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On 5/19/2018 at 9:16 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:
The same way that the Scriptures are quite clear about motorcycle maintenance ...
Look at the results of this bogus philosophy and fantasy of the Trinity and component parts as explained by Christendom -at-large.
During World War I two great armies met on the battlefields between France and Germany, and in a battle that lasted a full year, making this area look more cratered than the surface of the Moon, more that a million men were killed in mortal combat, and over 4 million wounded. Men's bodies and blood were mixed into the soil by artillery day after day after day.
Almost all of the combatants ON BOTH SIDES .... were Trinitarians who believe as you do, Cos.
Brethren murdering brethren .... because of the FRUITS of their bogus Theology.
Does not the Scriptures clearly teach "You will know my people, for they have love for one another ..."?
Christendom's belief system FAILED that essential test, always has, and always will ... and they even have Chaplains in the Military to bless and support this carnage, and those who perpetrate it.
Jehovah does NOT.
He has withdrawn his active force blessing them, about 1700 years ago, when the Theology you espouse was adopted from pagandom.
The "FORCE" is not with you, Luke.
and like a motorcycle tire ... THAT'S where "the rubber meets the road!"
Apparently Trinitarians will speak of the Genesis Act of Creation, but will later on deny how God made all things come into existence, just like how they ignore what the LIGHT means and what it was referring to in a specific verse in the Greek New Testament.
What makes it even more funny, Muslims nowadays are confronting and or confronted by Trinitarians, and are taught and educate on history and about their bible by Muslims who refute their falsehood, some Trinitarians will go on to speak ill of other faiths, even Jehovah's Witnesses while in this confrontation only to be met with questions like if such groups are sticking to scripture regarding who God the Father is and who the Son is, how are they wrong?
In short, this whole Triune God thing is what is killing Christianity in addition to those who only use the gospel to gain money only and do nothing for the Great Commission.
It is no surprise why Christianity is decreasing and ironically Christian minorities are increasing, the difference is because not everyone holds to the idea that Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God and the Father is God whereas the Bible specifically says God is One, and this One God is only the Father.
I give it a few more years, people will start to go nuts since it sort of began around the late late 2014, early 2015 that the decline was happening because of such things.
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On 5/19/2018 at 9:01 PM, Cos said:
“The Holy Spirit is not a person, let alone power”
Then maybe you should take a look at Luke 4:16-31 and what Jesus was quoting from.
On 5/19/2018 at 9:01 PM, Cos said:Instead what followed was the Sabellian form of teaching (hailed by another as irrefutable proof) that the Father is the Holy Spirit;
Do not mix things around. Sabellianism is a form of Modalistic Monarchianism. It is the belief that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three different modes or aspects of God, as apposed to a Trinitarian view of three distinct persons within the Godhead. So they do believe in the Holy Spirit, however they see it as a mode of God, not his power, however they do somewhat see the Holy Spirit as a person, per-say.
Other then that, you said earlier The Holy Spirit is God, do not contradict yourself.
On 5/19/2018 at 9:01 PM, Cos said:“there is only ONE Spirit. Jesus teaches that God the Father is Spirit. Since there is only one Spirit, the Holy Spirit, Jesus is telling us WHAT God is. The Holy God is Holy Spirit by nature. That is His divine nature, the Spirit of Truth in which we must walk and worship”
Correct, there is only One Spirit, but nowhere ins capture does it scribe said Spirit as an Man and or a Person. As stated before, Angels and even fallen Angels such as Demons, even Satan are described as persons, Sons of the Most High are desired as Persons, even having the capabilities for forming and or becoming human-like, having an appearance of a man, for Angels in the Bible are desired to look like men.
For they have personalities, angels have the power to communicate with one another/other angels as seen in 1 Corinthians 13:1, the ability to talk multiple languages languages of men as seen in Numbers 22:32-35, Daniel 4:23, Acts 10:3-7, and the thinking ability with to which honors and gives glorify and praise Jehovah/Yahweh as seen in Psalms 148:2 and Luke 2:13.
I can pull over a dozens of bible verses on this fact, nowhere in Scripture though, does it describe the Holy Spirit as a literal man or person. The only time it is given a gender is because a male, Jesus who is a man, is using a Greek expression in regards to a Gender form, and that alone does not prove anything when you understand how the Greek Language and gender forms in the Greek Language is spoken.
This seems to be the case for you were unaware of said Greek Gender Forms until I brought it up, for before you justified that HE and HIM means an actual person, when Greek Genders via modified neuter says otherwise.
On 5/19/2018 at 9:01 PM, Cos said:But then, like a boat without a rudder, the claim turns completely around and jumps onto that old distorted pretext that the Holy Spirit is “power”.
You clearly are dense on this matter.
On 5/19/2018 at 9:01 PM, Cos said:The absurdity of this claim is seen from many passages in Scriptures where the Holy Spirit and power are juxtaposed and frankly make no sense when you substitute the idea of “power” in place of that the Holy Spirit;
How does it not make sense? How do you suppose God the Father make things, let alone create the first man and or empowering those with the Holy Spirit? How do you suppose Nary got pregnant, for we all know it that nos sexual relations with a man/person was involved regarding her early pregnancy?
On 5/19/2018 at 9:01 PM, Cos said:“for God gave us a {power} not of fear but of power and love and self-control.” 1 Tim 1:7
“And Jesus returned in the power of the {power} to Galilee.” Luke 4:14
“anointing with {power} and power” Acts 10:38
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It is not 1 Timothy 1:7, it is 2 Timothy 1:7, with all that time to read the bible, you see that. Anyways The Holy Spirit is not the spirit of cowardice that was given to such folk, for the Spirit that God gives is of power and love. Check the scripture and re-read it again, as well as the cross-references, perhaps maybe you would learn something. It appears this time you are not using a NWT bible here, ironic.
Luke 4:14 does not help you here, especially with what Jesus was addressing when he had the scrolls of Isaiah in hand, even revealing who the prophet is, which was he himself of which the scrolls speak of. God's Spirit is upon Jesus, and Prophet Isaiah was not wrong about what he wrote either. The passage also points to Acts 10:38, as well as anything pertaining to what Isaiah wrote of the coming prophet who his of God's Holy Spirit and Power, since you are loving the Greek Strong's, you may want to look into these two a bit more.
Acts 10:38 has already been explained to you, even information addressing the Holy Spirit's Power and the Power that was given to Jesus by means of the Holy Spirit, cross-references proves it clearly, again you choose to ignore what is addressed. The fact that you mentioned cross-references and not see the one for Holy Spirit, let alone using a NWT bible that even points to it just shows how you are not well versed in scripture all that well, this goes back to what you said about Luke 24 in your other posts, even there you do not respect the Greek Language, just as you have been doing here.
Clearly you haven't read the bible more and only read the parts that you are in favor of, you brought up cross-references before, but deny them via your own responses afterwards, you are not fooling anyone and no one is going to allow you to confuse and mislead people with nonsense.
On 5/19/2018 at 9:01 PM, Cos said:But apparently these examples which show the absurdity of the idea on how the Holy Spirit allegedly is a power “is pretty weak” and the reason given is because I don’t know what this “power” can do and is capable of…
The Holy Spirit is described as:
- As Breath — Habakkuk 2:19 and Revelation 13:15
- The universe coming to be by means of it, in this case, regarding Earth itself - Psalm 33:6 and Isaiah 66:1, 2
- According to Peter about men being moved by the Holy Spirit - 2 Peter 1:20, 21
- Miracles performed by His servants and their zealous preaching of the gospel and of the Kingdom - Luke 4:18, Acts 1:8, and 1 Corinthians 12:4-11
- of God's Nature -Â 1 Corinthians 2:10
- As a Voice - Luke 12:12
- Things of God except [by] the Spirit of God -Â 1 Corinthians 2:11-12
- As Power given -Â Acts 1:8, 4:33
- Wisdom and Understanding - Isaiah 11:2
- Qualities displayed by individuals who obey and zealously serve God - Galatians 5:22, 23
- As Wind — Genesis 8:1 and John 3:8
- The Holy Spirit is read to have empowered Samson and was key to his role/feats - Judges 14:6
- A force in living creatures.—Job 34:14, 15
- Disposition or attitude of an individual — Numbers 14:24
- The scriptures refers to God’s holy spirit as his hands/fingers - Psalm 8:3; 19:1 and Luke 11:20 (see Matthew 12:28.)
The List goes on, and nowhere in scripture the Holy Spirit is seen or read as a man, a person, a literal being, etc.
On 5/19/2018 at 9:01 PM, Cos said:And it is because of my supposedly inapt understanding of the Greek that somehow dismisses as irrelevant what the experts on the language actually say.
Clearly you assume That the Holy Spirit is God and you claim that where it says HE or HIM automatically points to it being a person, which is not the case because Greek Gender forms are in use because a man, who is male spoke of the Spirit, this man is Jesus, and the neutered word is then modified to HE or HIM throughout that passage. It is vastly evident you never knew this until it was brought up, hence why your knowledge in Greek came into question, this was the same case with what you pulled for Hebrew Strong's and Luke 24.
You claim experts, but clearly everyone knows not all experts respect Greek gender forms, even if it is displayed to them, in addition to that the so called experts even addressed the gender forms, an example would be me linking one of the people you listed, what they actually said in their book, for a mere quote does not stop there, for said expert explains his case in the book - click on the link I posted before.
As said before there are 2 camps regarding the Holy Spirit
- A Person - Trinitarians, Modalisc, etc.
- Not a Person - Non-Trinitarians
The camp you are in is clear.
If you were in the position to preach the gospel and a lowly man asks you if the bible does not call the Holy Spirit a Person, and you claim the Holy Spirit is a person, who is in the right, you are the lowly man? I would side with the Lowly man because he is humble to what he knows vs a man who express clear ignorance of what the bible actually says.
On 5/19/2018 at 9:01 PM, Cos said:Instead of pointing out any further how what this person says is not very coherent and even the ad hominem insults do not warrant response, so IÂ’ll try another approachÂ…
Now it may come as a shock to some that there is a Unitarian group known as the Christadelphians which believe, pretty much, the same as any Arian/Unitarian group regarding the Divine, except they have this other little quirk in that they do not consider the Devil a real person.
Taking shots again are we, last I check
Christatadelphains are a Millenarian Christian group (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millenarianism) who hold a view of Biblical Unitarianism. The funny thing is, I told you before the difference in every Unitarian group, so this shot taken towards me is very weak, in addition to that I address before that not all Unitarians are the same, nor do all of them agree with each other, but it is no surprise a Trinitarian such as yourself will go to this length, very laughable too.
Â
Educate yourself, Cos:Â https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_unitarianism#Denominations
Anyways, check your facts, most Non-Trinitarians know that the Devil is indeed an actual person, in fact, he was originally an Angel, and even the bible describes Angels as men and or persons, Spiritual Beings of the like, this fallen Angel stoop down to jealous and evil and made himself Satan The Devil. You have no ground to stand on to use Christatadelphains as means of equaling them to a real Unitarian, let alone other Unitarian denominations who clearly do not share a similar view to them. It is not wise to call them Arians either, last I check, you stated Jesus was to be worshiped, and only Arians worship Jesus instead of God, even praising Jesus as if he is God instead of his own Father - clearly, there is a difference, I told you this before but it appears your vision has been faulted, and that you hear one thing and it goes out the other ear, I would not want to link where this discussion was held to save you trouble of anyone who chooses to see what you have posted in the past. If you want to target Unitarians, you are not doing it right, you picked a group who has the view of a Biblical Unitarian denomination. The only different between you and a Christatadelphains, is that they do not believe in 3 Gods in 1 be it persons and or modes. They may been in error in a few parts, but at least they are wise to not make God into something that he is not, and apparently not Arian either, for they do not believe in Jesus worship compared to modalist and Trinitarians, you did speak of worshiping Jesus before with strong conviction and not too long ago you called the Holy Spirit God, what does that make you?
Anyways, the one becoming Satan was originally like the other Spirit Beings, was created, a perfect, righteous creature of God until he became what he is now, we do not know what his original name is, but he is called Satan, and Satan means accuser or adversary, as for Devil, it means slanderer or lair - and we all know who the first lair is, let alone the very person who became an adversary of God to being with as well as causing problems and often challenging God, mainly in the case with Job. He is a spirit person, for he appeared in Heaven, having access to Heaven also, and was in the presence of God. (Job chapters 1 and 2, Revelations 12:9), this also goes for Angels before they rebelled, mainly the Angels who took it upon themselves to have sexual relations with the young virgin women on earth thus their offspring being the Nephilim (powerful giant looking unnatural human beings; abominations who were very bad) as seen in Noah's Day - for the sons of the true God began to notice that the daughters of men were beautiful - Genesis 6:2, and we know the result of that. Satan no longer have access to Heaven, was cast out - Luke 10:18 (John 12:31, 16:11, Hebrews 2:14, Revelations 12:7-9). Therefore, my many comments in the past proves my stance on Spirit Beings, good and bad, as well as Sons of the Most High, the godlike ones, as the scriptures say, in this case, what Jesus have said pertaining to the Law that cannot be broken.
On 5/19/2018 at 9:01 PM, Cos said:My stance on this is from the Scriptures, which show without a doubt that the Devil is a real person.
Ok, but you have yet to prove anywhere in scripture whereas the Holy Spirit is a Person, without the use of modified neutered passages and or voice passages.
If you can prove this, you can get off scott-free, but someone such as myself, who has studied the bible to its core since a child can see that you cannot find any scripture that says the Holy Spirit is a man and or person, anywhere and that is 100% fact.
As for the Devil, what I said now and in the past on this forums proves my view of what the bible teaches. The bible makes it clear that the Devil, Satan, despite his original name being unknown, was indeed a Spirit Being like the other Angels, who are persons, but made himself Satan, who was the the first deceiver, slander, lie, The Devil.
We know that Satan is male because, heck, it is obvious that majority of God's Sons in Heaven are 100% male and they appear as men or take form of men (somewhat, for some angels of rank tend to be descirbed differently).
We know this, but clearly nowhere in the bible the Holy Spirit is a Person, described as a person and or a man whatsoever. It came from God in form of a dove, yes, but clearly not as a man coming out of Heaven to bestow power to the one who became Christ that day.
On 5/19/2018 at 9:01 PM, Cos said:So how would you Arian/ Unitarians, who do believe that the Devil is a person, PROVE, from the Scriptures, to these poor deluded souls this fact? <><
Here we go again........
I am not an Arian because I do not believe in religious worship to Jesus, you in the past held a strong conviction to Jesus worship, I can link proof, but I will not kick you while you are down, but you seem to be pushing it this time around - again, in addition, even Semi-Arians at least have the audacity to SEE that Jesus worship instead of God is clearly problematic and or the belief in having a 3 in 1 God as Trinitarians believe.
Unitarians have several denominations, not all of them agree with each other, some follow scripture more than others, as for Trinitarians, they are whole among the same denomination, fact, and it is mostly Non-Trinitarians who have different denominations.
In the past, I already address that the Devil is indeed a person, even a former angel, as I have stated again today, but I ask you, if we can prove the Devil was a person, which is fact and true via the Bible, why is it so hard for you to prove the Holy Spirit to be a person? You try to prove this by using modified neutered passages and voice passages, but cannot prove anywhere in scripture that the Holy Spirit is a literal being and or person, this is why no one agrees with the Trinitarian camp, this is also why this is one of the very teaches that is killing Christianity around the globe and that the young people are leaving the church because of absurdities that you believe in which blinds the masses.
FACT regarding this thread: It can be proven that angels, and even the Devil and or his demons are persons - Spirit Beings, but nowhere in scripture that the One Spirit, that is the Holy Spirit is described as a person or a being, nowhere at all, to use modified neutered passages will not help, nor will using voice passage pertaining to what the Holy Spirit is made referenced to, thus making the Trinitarian view obsolete and incorrect, as to those who are affiliated with the Personhood of the Holy Spirit camp - in error.
FACT: Cross-references was brought up, but ignored comments through. What was the reason to address cross-references if you do not follow what said verse is pointing to? That is being hypocritical and ignorant - even going as far as to disregard said cross-references of the verses, and yet so and so uses a NWT bible 1984 to make a claim, and it is known that the NWT bible point to cross-references by means of small letters. Ignorance sure is a bliss.
Again, you sheer dishonesty and foolishness is on full display as it was in the last discussion. If you say anything else in this regard, I will link said discussion to further prove my point.
Stop tripping over yourselves regarding your man based view of the bible, you will just continue to fall and hurt yourself even more. Because this is what I am seeing right now. Clearly you are no different and just as blind as David Wood, Bob The Builder, James White and the infamous Jay Smith.
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On 5/18/2018 at 9:48 AM, Jack Ryan said:
- I personally think the cold hearted father and sister should be feeling quite guilty right about now. Thier PIOUS disfellowshipping landed them rotten fruitage. Completely ANTI-LOVE. ANTI WHAT GOD WANTS.
Jehovah is a foremost a GOD OF LOVE.
Her sister sounds almost reptilian-like cold hearted from this story.
All Jehovah's Witnesses everywhere need to reflect on thier Pharisaic attitudes and do as Jesus commands:
STOP JUDGING THAT YOU MAY NOT BE JUDGED. (as have the public judged the father and sister in this case)
No amount of preaching will overcome the many stories like this.
JUST STOP.
Are you listening JW.org and the Governing Body?
The story is indeed tragic, but we do not know for sure of the situation in greater detail with the Father and Sister, let alone words from the siblings themselves regarding those in question. Both the victim and her husband were having mental issues anyways and have been away from the religion for more than 5 years, if we are also to take the word of the others who had their say, like the Catholic couple.
Other then that, if you are not a fan of expelling, then you should join those who want Apostle Paul's teachings purged from the Bible, since the idea and practice of expelling did stem from Paul, and to some extent, Jesus, so the gospel of Matthew, specifically chapter 16, must be purged also.
God is indeed a God of love, but we have to remember, us as human beings are imperfect, anything can happen at any given time, problems will ensue and the like, so pinning the blame on a group who had no action in the 5 year period of this person is silly, in addition, they did not put the intent in mind or the gun in her hand. Elsewhere, people are not looking at this as a Religion Based Problem, they are looking at it as a Racial Problem, for at the time of this murder-suicide, there had been several murder-suicides that took place on that very week, all done by Caucasian (White) People, and thus the blame is being pinned on all people who are white, when the reality is, those who choose to take action upon ill intent in mind has done so by means of going over the edge, therefore it is unwise to blame a whole group for the actions of a few bad eggs, in this case, a mother who clearly had mental issues and a problematic past, who did use religion and other means to cope with her issues, I do not know what to say about the husband because clearly he was not right in the head also.
But as I said before on here, everyone, even in the same faith community is different. You can have a Christian in the Congo who is a true Christian vs that of a British Christian who is leading a double life, same faith, but clearly they are not the same person, for a Christian man can do a crazy crime that caused trouble and even injury and death to some person(s), does not mean the all Christians are the enemy, the picture that Atheist seem to paint on all Christians regardless of the denomination.
That being said, like I said, if you wish for expelling to be a practice that is abandon by the mainstream Christians, they it is advise you ignore chapter 16 of Matthew and ignore Apostle Paul, for most Christians who take the bible seriously really take into account of what is said in the scriptures, no matter how you try to knock it, hence the difference between mainstream and true Christian practice.
All in all, tragic, but pointing the blame won't help anyone, especially when you know exactly who had the gun in their hand to take out people and then themselves, this goes for a numerous murder-suicides that took place that very week, including this one.
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22 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:
It is more of a philosophical thing with me.
Philosophically, as well as in real life, (which if your philosophy is based on reality, are the same ...), I try never to "bring a knife to a gun fight".
Space Merchant made these points quite well in discussing the Holy Spirit.
An essential "weapon" to have is a knowledge and understanding of the Greek language used at the time .... and to understand it correctly.
As grass understands that it is meant to be eaten by cows and other animals ... grass Groks.
So should we.
A lot of Christians are not well aware or informed about the Greek Language and the forms. Every Language has its own forms or something that make it distinct from other languages, like French to Spanish, Creole, Portuguese, etc. anything pertaining to Grammatical gender.
But time and time again, some will prove what they believe vs. what the language in question really says.
The Holy Spirit is of God's nature, it is power, it is wisdom, it is courage, it is righteous, it is God's hand and or finger, it is his breathe, it is his force, it is his energy, it is of what he has caused everything to come into existence by his spoken word,etc.
But it seems people tend to limit God as if he is some overpowered comic book character that has to be sanctioned with limits to fit the narrative, in reality, God has no limit, nor can anything contain him despite him dwelling in temples, tents and or in people who are True Christians, for God is Almighty, and is All Powerful.
God's power is unlimited. He needs no teachers to guide or correct him
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On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:
The Scriptures (not youtube or some movie) teach that there are three distinct Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and these three Persons are God.
Incorrect, nowhere in the scriptures the Holy Spirit is described as a Person and or Distinct. There is a reason why there some of us actually study this stuff vs those who do not.
- There is One True God, Yahweh/Jehovah
- There is One Only-Begotten Son who is the Christ, Yeshua/Jesus.
- There is One Spirit, The Holy Spirit.
One God, One Son, One Spirit, nowhere in scripture all 3 is depicted as God and or 3 in 1.
echad is echad, simply one and the Shema Yisrael that is still practiced today disproves this 3 in 1 persons doctrine.
God is a Spirit, and is described as a Person. God is not a man/not like a man nor is he a son of man or thinks like any man who dwells the earth and God is incorruptible/immortal, cannot die and or feel/succumb to death.
- Numbers 23:19 - God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?
- 1 Samuel 15:29 - And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or have regret, for he is not a man, that he should have regret.”
The Son is the Son of God, The Son of Man, and his name is Jesus. He is a born Jew, born of a woman, born into the law. Like every other Jew, he learns about His God and His Father of the Old Testament, hence the Shema Yisrael, which all Jews to this day know, even Muslims, the Samaritans, and some Christians.
The Holy Spirit is but One Spirit, distinct from other Spirits, hence "the". People can be filled with it, given it, etc. The Holy Spirit is known to be of God's Spirit, for it is his breathe, his hand, even his power. The Holy Spirit clearly is not a person, otherwise people like Stephen would have acknowledged that. The Holy Spirit is also known as one of God's natures, just like his incorruptibility.
On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:The Holy Spirit is a distinct Person to the Father. Some will try and identify the Holy Spirit as the Father but when shown how absurd that is return to that old misused excuse identifying the Holy Spirit as “his power” which is just as absurd, see Acts 10:38 which would read “"anointing with power and power".
The Holy Spirit is indeed God's Power, I do not see why the denial, for there is only 2 camps on this matter.
- A: Holy Spirit (Breathe, Hand of God, Finger, Power, Nature) - Those who believe that one of God's nature is the Holy Spirit and that the Spirit is not a person, it is, as what the bible descibres the Spirit is to be and what it can do, example, causing Mary to become pregnant to even give birth to Jesus. Such ones believe that God can bestow the spirit on people, just as he did for Jesus and many others, and such one respects the Greek Lanugage pretaining to what the Holy Spirit is about.
- B: Holy Spirit (As a Person) - Only those who believe in a Triune God, as in God in 3 persons. They believe The Father is God, so is Jesus and The Spirit. They believe that the bible speaks of the Spirit as a person, disregarding the Greek Language, example, Jay Smith, a Trinitarian Christain, believes the Holy Spirit is indeed a person, said person played a role in empowering people, Mary's preganacy, and a list of other things, clearly the so called personhood is incorrect when one realizes the Greek Language gender forms.
We are aware of which camp you fall under. There are only 2 main camps here, mainly in the world of Christendom.
Acts 10:38 has cross-references, really strong ones. Also making this response "anointing with power and power" is pretty weak, if you really knew what the Holy Spirit is capable of and what it has been used to do, etc. it would be clear to you.
God was with him, Jesus, especially during his ministry and the like via said power.
FACT: Many scriptures refer to the Holy Spirit as the power of God (Zechariah 4:6; Micah 3:8). Apostle Paul told Timothy that it is the spirit of power and of love and of a sound mind in 2 Timothy 1:7 (added emphasis).
- 2 Timothy 1:7 - for God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.
FACT: In the gospel of Luke, Luke 4:14, it records that Jesus Christ began His ministry in the power of the Spirit. Luke 1:35 identifies the Holy Spirit with the power that is of the Highest. Speaking of the Holy Spirit, which would be given to His followers after His death, Jesus told them, You shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you.
Acts 1:8 - But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
FACT: Simon Peter relates how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, [and Jesus] went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him, as seen in Acts 10:38 (pertaining to the above). The Holy Spirit is here associated with the power by which God was with Him— the power through which Jesus Christ performed mighty miracles during His earthly, physical ministry. The Holy Spirit is the very presence of God's power actively working in His servants. The apostle Paul's desire was that the members of the Church in Rome would abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit, in the same way that Jesus Christ had worked through him in mighty signs and wonders , by the power of the Spirit of God (Romans 15:13, 19).
On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:What about the Greek used by Jesus in the up-stairs room of the Gospel of John with relation to the Holy Spirit. Does this verify that the Holy Spirit is not a person as some claim?
John 14:16; 15:26: “And I will ask the Father, and He will give you ANOTHER Helper….When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness of Me.…”
The Helper that is to replace Jesus is the Holy Spirit, but these verses does not prove The Holy Spirit is a Person because clearly, again using Greek Language here Jesus speaking automatically makes the Greek Word Masculine, this has been addressed time and time again and this just shows you have a total disrespect to the Greek Language, you do not even bother to try and understand Masculine, Feminine and neuter forms.
Clear ignorance.
LEARN YOUR GREEK:
- https://www.thenationalherald.com/115293/our-everyday-greek-masculine-and-feminine-nouns/
- https://hellenisticgreek.com/05.html
- https://hellenisticgreek.com/06.html
Because clearly, you lack knowledge of such and it shows.
It is stuff like this that not only cause Christianity to decline, but makes genuine Christians look bad due to the error and those misleading others with total dishonesty.
On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:“First there are two words in the Greek language for the English word “another”. The first word is “heteros” (Greek ἕτερον), which means “another of a different kind.” The other Greek word “allos” (Greek ἄλλον) means “another of the same kind.” See Robinsons Word Pictures of the New Testament and Vincent’s Word Studies etc.
It is this second word “allos” that is used in John 14:16. So Jesus is saying that He will ask the Father to send another Helper of the same kind as Himself.
Jesus could have used ἕτερον but instead used ἄλλον which is very significant considering what He goes on to say about the Holy Spirit.
Jesus is simply referring to the Helper, that is, The Holy Spirit, Greek Language forms is in play here in the scriptures, and again, nowhere in scripture is the Holy Spirit is depicted and or seen as a Person. You uttered cross-references, yet you do not bother to look them up, the irony is you are using the NWT when the cross-references in that bible is literally in your face in forms of little footnote letters...
allos has nothing to do with the gender/neuter forms in Greek Language here, again shows how you are not well educated on the the Greek Language.
Look at the Strong's, in fact, anyone can click on this link and see for themselves.
- http://biblehub.com/greek/243.htm
- heteros is not used in that verse: http://biblehub.com/greek/2087.htm nor does it have a gender and or neutered.
Source: http://biblehub.com/lexicon/john/14-16.htm
Last I recall, Jesus was not the writer of the gospel of Acts, John has addressed what the Christ had said.
On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:In Greek, nouns can be masculine, feminine or neuter and pronouns referring to these nouns are (in most cases, not always) masculine, feminine or neuter. The Greek word for demon is neuter as is the Greek word for child. And we know that demons and children are personal beings. Yet, the Greek text uses neuter personal pronouns to refer to them.
This has been mentioned by me already, but you ignored it, thus contradicting your claim of the Holy Spirit being a person if Greek Language forms is in application here.
Demon is a masculine noun: http://biblehub.com/greek/1142.htm do not get it mixed up with the neutered counterpart http://biblehub.com/greek/1140.htm, as for child, there are several neutered forms, be specific on which one you are referring to.
There is clearly a difference, singular and plural.
A child is a being, human being just as a man and or a woman, so is a demon, a fallen son of the Most High, former angel (Spirit Being).
On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:We know that the noun pneuma is neuter. As such, the pronouns referring to pneuma are also neuter. Point of fact, pneuma is referred to with autos, a neuter pronoun, in John 4:24:
“God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him [Greek autos] must worship with spirit and truth.” (NWT).
One certainly wouldn’t argue that God isn’t a Person simply because, following the use of proper grammar, the pronoun referring to Him is neuter, would you?
Likewise it would be premature on this basis to argue that the use of neuter pronouns referring to the Holy Spirit demand, as some claim, that the Holy Spirit in not a person.
You do realize what God is regarding the Greek Language form?
- http://biblehub.com/greek/2316.htm (theos/God)
God is spoken of to be a person as well as a spirit from early on in the Hebrew Text into the Greek. As well as being a person is is spoken of as being a Spirit, as well as a Creator, Most High, etc. How in the WORLD did you miss that one!?
He is spoken of by both sexes, by male and female individuals int he scripture, examples like Jesus, David, Hagar, Rehab, etc.even by Spirit beings, both the good an the bad.
- Take a good look at pneuma again: http://biblehub.com/greek/4151.htm
- Take a really good look at John 4:24 Strong's again: http://biblehub.com/lexicon/john/4-24.htm
As for the Holy Spirit, it is not on a premature basis, it is the GREEK LANGUAGE and HOW GENDER AND NEUTER FORMS ARE USED. Explained time and time again, but it goes through one ear, and out the other, even before gender/neuter form were mentioned, you automatically assume the Holy Spirit to be a literal person, you are jumping way too many wagons and mixing up the information to only fit your own benefit vs. that of the scriptures and a respect to the Greek Language, of which you are being dishonest and disrespecting totally.
On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:In the dialogue in the upstairs room, does Jesus compare the Holy Spirit to Himself as a Person? Yes He does:
You can't seem to make up your mind can you?
As for the other 2 verses
John 12:49 is very direct to 4 verses:
- John 5:19 - So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.
- John 8:38 - I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”
- John 14:10 - Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that is saying to you, ‘Give me a drink,’ you would have asked him, and he would have given you living water.”
- John 5:30 - “I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Jesus by himself CANNOT do anything, but he can do such things because the Father is not only in union/one with him, but the Father is with Jesus Christ and that His Spirit is upon His Son. Clearly he is not talking about the Holy Spirit, in these cases, as well as John 12:49, he is referring to his Father, even in chapter 12 of John God is speaking to Jesus very early if we start from verse 27 onward, mind you, Jesus was both fearful and troubled for the hour has come.
John 16:13 neutered words were modified because Jesus (a male/man) is the one speaking, hence why the Holy Spirit is referred to as a HE/HIM, what did you not understand from the other post?
You do not know Greek yet you say this, but attempt to speak about Gender/neuter forms in Greek, let alone saying such about God when the Strong's make it clear God is both a Person, a Spirit, a Creator and is mention by both sexes in the bible? Come on now, you can't be this daft and expect no one to point this out, Cos.
On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:In the dialogue Jesus compared the Holy Spirit to Himself, the comparison of one Person to another. It would make no sense doing so if the Holy Spirit were not a person, but some just can’t see this fact.
Incorrect. Also pertaining to John 16, it is made clear that it speaks of the The Work of the Holy Spirit, never has it address this One Spirit as a person, we only know it is called a HE/HIM because the speaker is Jesus Christ. The Spirit cannot do anything for God is the one who sends, controls, etc regarding the Spirit.
The fact of the matter is, you do not know gender/neuter forms in Greek, not even a molecule of knowledge regarding such. I provided links above so you better understand what is being addressed here.
On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:Its reasons like this that have the majority of scholars disagreeing with the NWT claim, and why the famous Greek grammarian A.T. Robertson argues that John, “is insisting on the personality of the Holy Spirit when the grammatical gender so easily called for ἐκεῖνος” (A. T. Robertson, A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, 708-9)
You do realize JW opponents, mostly Trinitarians will use Robertson's response against them, as well as others who are Non-Trinitarians? Such is also used against Muslims who argue that the Holy Spirit is not a person.
Other then that the word mentioned in Greek is this: http://biblehub.com/greek/1565.htm
For anyone who wants to check out Robertson's word, simply look at page 709: https://books.google.com/books/about/A_Grammar_of_the_Greek_New_Testament_in.html?id=DzsPAQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button#v=onepage&q=is insisting on the personality of the Holy Spirit when the grammatical gender so easily called&f=false
At the same time it is being hypocritical, since you are making this claim against the NWT, yet you are using it as your only source, the 1984 to be more specific.
On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:Vine’s Dictionary comments on the masculine pronouns applied to the Holy Spirit in John: “The personality of the Spirit is emphasized at the expense of strict grammatical procedure in John 14:26; 15:26; 16:8, 13, 14, where the emphatic pronoun ekeinos, “He,” is used of Him in the masculine, whereas the noun pneuma is neuter in Greek...”
Shooting yourself on the foot I see.
Vine’s Dictionary comments on the masculine pronouns applied to the Holy Spirit in John: “The personality of the Spirit is emphasized at the expense of strict grammatical procedure in John 14:26; 15:26; 16:8, 13, 14, where the emphatic pronoun ekeinos, “He,” is used of Him in the masculine, whereas the noun pneuma is neuter in Greek...”
This goes for your other quotes too. It is silly to post things you do not agree with. You are a Trinitarian Christian, you do not apply gender/neuter forms in this case as most who believe in a Triune God, so why post quotes of those who actually make an attempt to understand and explain gender/neuter forms in the Greek Language?
On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:Really, in this sense there is not much to argue about here. Consider, even if the masculine pronoun is due to the preceding noun "Parakletos", the Parakletos is 1) referred to and described as a Person, and 2) is clearly identified as the Spirit (i.e. Parakletos is only an alternative, descriptive name). So either way the Spirit is shown to be a Person since the Parakletos is identified as a person!
Not quite.
- Learn what Parakletos even means: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/paraclete
- Learn how it is applied in the Greek Text: http://biblehub.com/greek/3875.htm (notice the occurrences, if you go to the verses, it is a male who speaks of said helper.)
On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:Justin Martyr writes, “...use with simplicity the words and expressions which offer themselves, and declare to you whatever the Holy Ghost, WHO descended upon them, chose to teach through them to those who are desirous to learn the true religion.” (Justin’s Hortatory Address to the Greeks, Chapter 35).
I don't see where Justin thinks of the Spirit as a person.
On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:Ignatius (Ad 35-107), who was a disciple of the apostle John, he writes “But the Holy Spirit does not speak his own things, but those of Christ, and that not from himself, but from the Lord; even as the Lord also announced to us the things that he received from the Father.? (The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians, Chapter 9).
The Reason the Holy Spirit has a voice can be read in John 16, and why this is so. Nowhere does it state that the Holy Spirit is a person and or people acknowledging The Holy Spirit to be a Person and or has a Seat near God on his throne.
On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:Irenaeus writes “neither do we receive another Holy Spirit, besides Him who is with us, and who cries, “Abba, Father;” (Irenaeus Against Heresies, book 4, chapter 9).
You've been refuted on this before, critically. Controversial Post ring any bells?
On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:We can see that the early Greek speaking church had no problem ascribing personal pronouns to the neuter when it comes to the person of the Holy Spirit.
Modified neutered words does not prove something to be a person.
An A.I. can speak, it s not a person, we can refer to an A.I. as a HE or a SHE, at times depending on who is speaking of said A.I.
Again, you have been refuted of this before, and clearly the views of the church differs from that of today in terms of understanding and Christology.
On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:I have kept this brief, for an extended discussion on the above see the following; B. F. Westcott The Gospel According to St. John; A. H. Strong Systematic Theology; H. C. G Moule Veni Creator; E. W. Bullinger Figures of Speech Used in the Bible; R. A. Torrey What the Bible Teaches; D. A. Carson The Gospel According to John.
You truly rely on others so much you do not bother to learn by yourself. This should prove as an example for you to read up on the basics of the Greek language, as well as gender and neutered forms, the elementary stuff and perhaps the sand in your eyes will come off, grain by grain.
On 5/12/2018 at 4:59 AM, Cos said:On a side note with any discussion of this nature we need to look at another related text where the Holy Spirit applies the first person possessive pronoun “me” to Himself in Acts 13:2; “…the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for ME (Greek moi) Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." <><
The Holy Spirit speaks, the voice of the Spirit, as to why this was is stated in John 16. Throughout the bible, prophets/men who speak are imbued with the Holy Spirit. We know this by both the cross-references as well as verses like Matthew 12:36, Acts 4:8, 5:3, and Hebrews 10:15.
Again, nowhere in scripture does it speak of the Holy Spirit as a person and or being that can be seen, we know by scripture angels can be seen, such spirit beings who appear like men, but nowhere, no-where, in the scriptures we see the Holy Spirit also described as such, it is only refereed to as a HE/HIM because it is usually a MALE who speaks of the SPIRIT, thus making the neutered word pneuma as a modified word, hence masculine.
The Spirit of the Father speaks through people, even angels.
We have the Holy Spirit in us.
Learn also what Shaliah Principle is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaliah
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On 5/12/2018 at 4:49 AM, Cos said:
When Jesus was condemned to death by the Jewish Sanhedrin, the Jews insisted to Pilate, “We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God” (John 19:7).
Ok.
On 5/12/2018 at 4:49 AM, Cos said:Prior to this, the high priest who was the president of the Jewish council, put Christ under oath, Matthew reports the high priest to have said at the trial, “I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God” (Matt. 26:63).
Ok. Regardless, the above is already known, same with John 19.
On 5/12/2018 at 4:49 AM, Cos said:Keep in mind that Jesus knew the sense in which the question was asked (for He had been accused of this before, see John 5:17-18 and John 10:30-39), and He was bound to answer it honestly and truly in the sense in which He knew the high priest meant it.
John 5:17-18 - Jesus speaks about authority given to him by his Father
John 10:30-39 - Jews try to seize Jesus
Jesus was challenged twice, but both situations were totally different.
Jesus affirmed a law twice verses 34-35 of the Jews and he spoke in challenge to the Jews who were against him - John 10:32-38.
Which goes hand in hand with how the Jews were pursuing to kill him later on, hence that chance of doing so was made a reality because an evident betrayal.
On 5/12/2018 at 4:49 AM, Cos said:He therefore affirmed under oath, at that council, that He was the Son of God in the high sense the high priest meant, Jesus replied, “You have said so. But I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven” (verse 64) , and for this He was condemned to death.
Ok.
On 5/12/2018 at 4:49 AM, Cos said:This is as clear a declaration of His Deity. Some will argue that Jesus was speaking satirically, and saying in effect, “You said that, not I.” However, three observations need to be made: (1) Jesus went on to speak of His power and second coming, thus confirming rather than contradicting the charge; (2) Jesus’ answer to the high priest in the parallel account in the Gospel of Mark chapter 14 verses 61-62; (3) Jesus had the ideal opportunity here to correct any misconception which may have been involved. This he did not do.
Jesus alludes to the Messianic prophecy, Daniel 7:13, 14, for he is affirming that he would be the one who would gain access to God’s presence and God given ruler-ship in Heaven.
Jesus is to be on a t the ruler’s right hand meant being second in importance to the ruler himself, that is God Almighty - Psalms 110:1; Acts 7:55, 56. Power in this context is understood to refer to God the Father himself, often rendered to The Power or The Powerful One in some translations. The expression for Right Hand of Power occurs in parallel to what we see in the gospel of Luke, specifically Luke 22:69, but the only difference is with the addition of the word for "God".
The phrase Right Hand of Power implies our Lord, Jesus Christ, would be given/imbued with power, and or authority (remember Mt. 28:18), because of being at the right hand of the Powerful One, God, who is the Father of Jesus Christ.
So it is no clear declaration of Deity, for what we have seen in your previous response we clearly see that the Son of Man is The Son of God. Everything said in the gospel of Mark also makes cross-reference to what is addressed.
On 5/12/2018 at 4:49 AM, Cos said:The Jews’ reaction is instructive. When the high priest said, “He has uttered blasphemy. Why do we still need witnesses? You have now heard his blasphemy. What is your judgment?” they replied, “He deserves death” (Matt. 26:65-66). The crime according to the Jews was that Jesus claimed what only God has the right to claim, and Jesus did not dispute the charge.
This points back to John 19:7 whereas Jesus response affirms he is God's Son when alleged (John 10:36), to which the Jews had stated he made himself God's Son. The Jews are also abusing a Law from the Torah (Leviticus 24:16) in order to put Jesus to death, hence the claim for blasphemy (Matthew 9:3, John 10:33).
On 5/12/2018 at 4:49 AM, Cos said:According to the Law of Moses, any person who enticed others to idolatry was to be punished with death (Deut. 13:6-8, see also Lev. 24:16). A mere creature, who should claim divine honor to himself, was guilty of this crime, and even though the Romans had taken away from the Jews the power of inflicting this punishment, they still had the right to report to the governor concerning such a person, “We have a law, and by that law He ought to die” (John 19:7).
Yes, Law Covenant, Torah. The Jews played their cards in their own favor to make such a thing regarding Jesus to take place, but such was to be done.
On 5/12/2018 at 4:49 AM, Cos said:This was their decision as reported to Pilate, concerning Jesus because the Jews considered Him a creature, and if He was not entitled to this claim then their decision was just.
Granted they have a huge disdain for him, an have been plotting to kill him for sometime until they actually seized an opportunity.
On 5/12/2018 at 4:49 AM, Cos said:In the other case He not only claimed to be the Son of God in the high sense, yet accompanied the claim with NO explanation. He could have said, I am the Son of God, but not in such a sense as true Deity. But he made no such explanation. If Jesus was not entitled to divine honor, He knew it; and He also knew then that He deserved death for claiming it.
Yet when Jesus did die, he was recognized as the Son of God.
Matthew 27:54 - When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!”
Mark 15:39 - And when the centurion, who stood facing him, saw that in this way he breathed his last, he said, “Truly this man was the Son of God!”
Luke 23:47 - Now when the centurion saw what had taken place, he praised God, saying, “Certainly this man was innocent [righteous]!”
Jesus knew of the things that was to happen on this day already. In the gospel of Matthew, in addition to cross-references, we are aware of what Jesus said, crying out to his Father who is His God:
“It has been accomplished!” (John 19:30)
“Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” (Luke 23:46)
One of the reasons why John 3:16 is one of the most beloved verses is because we know how much God loved his Son and that the sacrifice that His Son had made had granted us a chance to be saved, for it is of God's grace through his Son's sacrifice, that we even had this opportunity, one would shutter to think what if Jesus did not die, or had died earlier on, how things would be now. Other then that it is what it is now, and we are to maintain faith for we can easily lose it, just like our salvation if we are not careful.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
On 5/12/2018 at 4:49 AM, Cos said:This was their decision as reported to Pilate, concerning Jesus because the Jews considered Him a creature, and if He was not entitled to this claim then their decision was just.
You may want to re-read the verses and the cross-references they didn't want to kill him because they considered him a creature, the four gospels in the Greek New Testament that speak on the historic account of Jesus Christ made it clear as to why the Jews wanted to kill him. The Jews had pure hatred for Jesus and have been plotting to thing of cunning ways to do away with him, since they, didn't have the resources to do it themselves without causing chaos and a stir among the people, other Jews and civilians were were not twisted in the head like them.
In a sense, they used false accusations and other schemes in order to lay their hands on the Christ and eventually they did.
On 5/12/2018 at 4:49 AM, Cos said:To make the claim before the court was to be guilty of the crime. To answer as He did, on oath, if He did not mean to make the claim, was perjury. And to allow the sentence against Him to pass, without any effort to explain, was to be guilty of His own death. Nowhere does Jesus dispute the charge. <><
Ok, but you have to realize that Jesus was indeed fearful and troubled prior to his death, for he knew what such a sacrifice met and what it was to accomplish.
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12 hours ago, Cos said:
will address some allegations.
Here is two claims; “The Holy Spirit is not a person, let alone power”.
Indeed it is not a person. The Holy Spirit is indeed considered power, mainly if you take on the passages that give clear examples of how it empowered people in some way and or form and what it is capable of doing. For instance, Elijah was very low in spirit, but by means of the Holy Spirit be was bestowed courage to press on even further
All of Samson’s feats of strength are directly attributed to the Spirit coming upon him as seen in Judges 14:6, 19; 15:14.
- (6) Then the Spirit of the LORD rushed upon him, and although he had nothing in his hand, he tore the lion in pieces as one tears a young goat. But he did not tell his father or his mother what he had done.
- (19) Then the Spirit of the LORD came powerfully upon him. He went down to the town of Ashkelon, killed thirty men, took their belongings, and gave their clothing to the men who had solved his riddle. But Samson was furious about what had happened, and he went back home to live with his father and mother.
- (14) When he came to Lehi, the Philistines came shouting to meet him. Then the Spirit of the LORD rushed upon him, and the ropes that were on his arms became as flax that has caught fire, and his bonds melted off his hands.
We know that it was not a person and or a being that came upon Samson on it's own and clearly we see Samson was give power to do the feats he was capable of doing, hence given power.
We know these because of 1 Kings 18:46
- And the hand [Spirit and or Power] of the LORD [Yahweh/Jehovah] was on Elijah, and he gathered up his garment and ran before Ahab to the entrance of Jezreel.
Elijah was fearful and his lost of courage for before he had the power of God's Spirit upon him until later on, we see his current state at the time after losing said courage, even wanting God to take his life away, make him as if he is no more, so to speak. But then God spoke to him, later on, helping Elijah out greatly.
Because of the Holy Spirit, Zechariah , who didn't believe a word that Gabriel had said, he had been silenced, but by means of the power of God, God's Holy Spirit, said Spirit enabled Zechariah to speak; his ability to speak had been restored and he is no longer a mute, Luke 1:67 (onward Zechariah speaking in such regarding prophecy)
- And his father Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied, saying,
We are also aware that Mary had became pregnant by means of the Holy Spirit, enabling her to even birth Jesus to begin with, Luke 1:35
- And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.
Later, much later on, Jesus himself, was said to be in full power of the Holy Spirit, Luke 4:14, for anyone who is familiar with Strong's will see a clear connection to the Holy Spirit and Power.
Lastly, we know God is a Spirit, based on what Jesus said in John 4:24 - God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.
And in the Genesis Act of Creation, we clearly see God using said Spirit, his power (his force), and His Spoken Word was the result of things being created and or causing to exist, for that is what the meaning of God's name even implies, "to exist and or cause to exist".
Psalms 33:6 and Isaiah 40:26 makes it obviously clear also.
For the power of the Holy Spirit is the power of God. It has appeared throughout Scripture many times and by whom great works of power are made manifest - clearly this cannot be a missed.
12 hours ago, Cos said:The first claim is that the Holy Spirit is not a Person, the second is that the Holy Spirit is not power either. But notice all you JW, the last time I checked the Watchtower website they say that the Holy Spirit is “God’s power”.
Even without the resources from the Jehovah's Witnesses' Watchtower, people clearly see that the Holy Spirit is indeed God's Spirit, his power, so to make a claim that targets a religious faith is rather weak and information outside, even the Greek Strong's can be used against you here.
Attempt becomes obsolete.
The Holy Spirit that comes from God the Father is consider to be an awesome and dynamic power of which we can clearly see in scripture. To ignore this only proves a hypocritical attitude of what the bible says.
12 hours ago, Cos said:Then we jump into a bit about cross-reference, and I believe the Bible translation used in this case is the NWT, because none of the Bibles translation I looked up cite the verses used here, except the NWT, now if the NWT was used then one of the cross-reference, was missed, namely Heb. 1:9, and in reading it we can clearly understand why.
You cannot make a claim of other bible translations unless you give an example and or the bible name itself. It would be a problem if the cross-reference(s) in question are incorrect, but this is not the case here, for the cross-reference we have for the ESV, even that of the NASB and several others are identical to the NWT, example would be for Hebrews 1:9 pointing to Psalms 45:6,7. So do not make a claim of something without positive fact, you do this one too many times.
Yes God is a Spirit and the Spirit of God that he exerts is the Holy Spirit, and no logically the Holy Spirit is not God. God uses said Spirit to do what he sees fit, but if we are to go with your logic, a man who makes apple pies, we should see the apple pie as a man also.
The scriptures in the bible makes it clear what the Holy Spirit can do, what is has enable some to do, what it has caused and where it comes from. For the Holy Spirit comes into our hearts, we become partakers of the divine nature since the Holy Spirit IS God's divine nature, not another person, not another being, but of God's nature, of which he uses to expert said power.
12 hours ago, Cos said:Even though I totally agree that the Holy Spirit IS GOD, the Bible shows that there is a clear distinction within the Divine.
Ok.
12 hours ago, Cos said:The claim continues, “there is only ONE Spirit. Jesus teaches that God the Father is Spirit. Since there is only one Spirit, the Holy Spirit, Jesus is telling us WHAT God is. The Holy God is Holy Spirit by nature. That is His divine nature, the Spirit of Truth in which we must walk and worship.”
You mentioned cross-references before, yet you do not apply them to this verse.
God is a Spirit
- 2 Corinthians 3:17 - Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
- 1 Timothy 1:17 - To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
- Hebrews 11:27 - By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible.
Jesus spoke of his Father, who is His God, as being a Spirit, which is agreed.
Worship in Spirit and Truth
- Romans 12:1 - I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
The reality is there are many Spirits (angels and demons being known as Spirits), but the Holy Spirit is but only One and it comes from God, nowhere in scripture does it address that the Holy Spirit is God, otherwise it would be mentioned, as well as the claim that some say about it being a person, with sheer ignorance of the Greek language.
12 hours ago, Cos said:I will contend that the Father is not the Holy Spirit.
You are contradicting what you said: Cos - I totally agree that the Holy Spirit IS GOD
12 hours ago, Cos said:The fact that the Holy Spirit is distinct from the Father (just as the Son is) can be seen from passages of Scripture were you can substitute the term "God" or "Father" in place of where the Holy Spirit is present, here are some examples;
Eph. 2:18, "For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit"; so if the above reckoning be true then this verse would mean, "access to the Father by one Father”.
And;
Matt. 28:19, “…baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” would mean, “…baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Father”.
Clearly the above claim that the Father is the Holy Spirit is an absurdity!
No one can substitute something that is not according to the Strong's and or to the respects of the oldest and most reliable source. As for Ephesians 2:18, you clearly miss what Ephesians 2 is about by a very, very large margin.
Ephesians 2 speaks of the Grace of God through his Son, Jesus Christ. That "Him" in verse 18 is referring to Jesus. Early Christians, the Jews and Gentiles, believing in Jesus results in them having access to the one Spirit, The Holy Spirit, to the Father, the one true God, not to mention Jesus' role as the cornerstone and the very foundation of which the Church resides - Jesus being the head of the Church. Early on, we see what is said know how the early Christians, the Jews and the Gentiles, now being one in Christ, of how they understood who God is, who his Son is, and what role does the Holy Spirit have in which it enables them to do what they do.
It is the Holy Spirit itself that allows us to reach the Father, as if it is a bridge for us to even have access to God the Father if we take into account his grace by means of His Son.
As for Matthew 28:19, I already made mention of this elsewhere, would be another waste of time to post this one too when it is obvious.
12 hours ago, Cos said:This is not an Arian teaching nor do I think it is a Unitarian teaching, but this is more in line with Sabellianism because this is a similar teaching of the Oneness group who also claim God the Father is the “Holy Spirit by nature”.
You may want to look in to the Christology of things a bit more regarding the Holy Spirit. Among such, there is and will always be those who are totally dishonest of what the Holy Spirit is and of its source of origin, and what it can do, some would see the Holy Spirit as a person and doing the most literal things, hence the remark about awkwardness in the scripture, knowing some groups who have the audacity to say such strikes shock in some people, hence why scriptural facts must be address to refute the dishonest claims.
12 hours ago, Cos said:We then move on to the footnote quote from the NWT, but the claims made in the footnote are vastly different to the claim that “The Holy God is Holy Spirit by nature”.
Ok. But you have to be very clear and concise onward from here, but what is seen is already evident.
12 hours ago, Cos said:And as my understanding of Greek is questioned, I will briefly show how the footnote from the NWT is, I believe, completely wrong.
How are they wrong if masculine/feminine modifiers to a neutered noun and or adjective is applied? Are you serious???
12 hours ago, Cos said:Firstly the assumption is made in the footnote that the Holy Spirit is a “force”, the reason for this assertion is because, they claim, “God’s spirit is often mentioned together with other impersonal forces or things…” And that supposedly supports why they say that the Holy Spirit is a power of some kind.
Your understanding of Greek came to question because you ignored the fact of masculine, feminine, and neuter words and how neutered words have another meaning by means of modification.
Regarding Active Force, in Genesis 1:2 in the NWT, regardless of the 1984 and or the revised, it is points to God's Spirit.
Christians who really take into consideration of what the bible says know that God’s Holy Spirit is identified as God’s power in action, and that his power is in work. They’re claim is regarding the Holy Spirit’s role as a “Helper” (parakletos) as seen in 14:16 in John, and seeing you mentioned this, you changed from the 1984 to the revised version of the NWT bible (would make much more sense to use either NWT and another bible, like the NIV or something), you can be mixing both to reap the same results, even though it won’t help you here, as for impersonal forces and or things, they actually have support on this as seen in Matthew 13:11, Acts 6:3,5, 13:52, 2 Corinthians 6:4-8, and Ephesians 5:18.
The support for Impersonal Force and or Things according to Jehovah's Witnesses/Watchtower
- Matthew 13:11 - And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
- Acts 6:3,5, 13:52 - (3) Therefore, brothers, pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we will appoint to this duty. (5) And what they said pleased the whole gathering, and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolaus, a proselyte of Antioch. (5)2 And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.
- 2 Corinthians 6:4-8 - (4) but as servants of God we commend ourselves in every way: by great endurance, in afflictions, hardships, calamities, (5) beatings, imprisonments, riots, labors, sleepless nights, hunger; 6 by purity, knowledge, patience, kindness, the Holy Spirit, genuine love; (7) by truthful speech, and the power of God; with the weapons of righteousness for the right hand and for the left; (8) through honor and dishonor, through slander and praise. We are treated as impostors, and yet are true;
- Ephesians 5:18 - And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit,
Once again, your Greek will come into question if you do not know how “Helper” is modified – for there is no way to prove and or counter how said words are modified when used, not only it is neigh impossible, but clearly it cannot be done, pertaining to what you posted about the Holy Spirit being a person when referred as a He and or a Him, again, clear ignorance of the Greek language, and it is no different when it comes to “Helper”, perhaps “Comforter” as well.
Ironically, only Trinitarians and a few Oneness believers have an issue with Greek language modifiers, which is the case with people like Jay Smith, James White, David Wood and a selective other few.
12 hours ago, Cos said:Using the SAME reasoning employed by the NWT at Matthew 3:11 Ac 6:3, 5; 13:52; 2Co 6:4-8; Eph 5:18 we would have to conclude that because death is not a person in Rom 6:3 so Jesus is not a person because they are mentioned together?
Same Reasoning or Masculine/Feminine/Neuter forms and modifications? You are mixing two things together to conjure up something that do not make sense - in this sense, mixing Ketchup with Ice Cream at this point, 2 different things, obviously, that clearly o not go with each other.
In this case your reasoning vs that of the Greek Language and forms of use.
Anyways, I do not know if you are doing that on purpose or that your brain has just gone blank. Romans 6:3 is referring to the death of Jesus as well as baptism (His baptism, His death), the cross-references is as clear as day, Mark 10:38, 39 and 1 Corinthians 15:29, which does not shy away from how John the Baptism sees Baptism regarding crossing from death to life, pertaining to the history of the Baptism. Jesus is indeed a person, the very man God has sent to roam this earth to teach, the very man put to death by the hands of the Jews, but raised up out of death by God his Father, the very man who acknowledged in Luke 24 and Acts 1 of what his followers are to expect, and so on. So I am not sure how you are going to fit an outlandish based logic for Romans 6:3 when the scriptures, and cross-references, makes it crystal clear, it can’t be missed unless one refuses it and or is totally ignorant.
12 hours ago, Cos said:Romans 6:3; “Don’t you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?”
Addressed right above this response.
12 hours ago, Cos said:Let’s take a look at the many times Jesus, a person, is associated with impersonal things; but these do not argue against HIS PERSONALITY.
So I guess now we are moving from what is what the Holy Spirit is really, to literal things, onward into personality.
Other than that, the Origin of Baptism is clearly not known to you. Regardless, Romans 6:3 and whatever points to it is very clear and concise.
12 hours ago, Cos said:Jesus refers to Himself as the vine (John 15:1), the door (John 10:17), bread (John 6:35) etc, because these terms are mentioned together with Jesus they do not cancel out His personality.
Ok. But clearly we derive from the discussion of the Holy Spirit. “The Door” is not mentioned in John 10:17, it is mentioned in John 10:7:
verse 7 - So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
verse 17 - For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again.
Verse 7 it points to what Jesus addressed in John 14:6, hence being One in Christ, hence having the Spirit in order to access the Father. John 6:35 is not more so of a personality, it is Jesus informing us of what him being the bread of life implies, this is why it connects so well with John 4:14, 7:37 and Revelations 22:17. As for John 15, we see why Jesus refers to himself as the vine (allegory) and that he refer to his God, who is his Father, as the cultivator.
Jesus is speaking in a illustrative sense, in addition, it is considered a farewell discourse of Jesus Christ (chapters 15 to 17 in the gospel of John), for this passage has been the influence of Christian iconography, it is that great and awe inspiring.
I must say anything pertaining to the like is indeed beautiful regarding what Lord Jesus Christ had said in those passages.
After what Jesus had said (I am the True Vine), he goes on to speak about The Hatred of the World.
12 hours ago, Cos said:We see in Jeremiah 17:13 that Jehovah in general is identified as water.
Yahweh/Jehovah, the source of “living water”, it is said of him as such, that does not make it so he is literally identified as water. This also cross-references to Jeremiah 2:13 and Revelations 22:1.
But I guess by man’s understanding we are to believe that God the Father is not literally water, but also a literal rock also? I think not. If anyone is honest, they can see why God is called as such and why such actually is a reference to. God is the Rock of Salvation, for he protects and conceals his people. God is the source of living water because he preserves his people and has the ability to take those out of the pangs of death, as seen in the Greek New Testament regarding Jesus, who God has raised.
12 hours ago, Cos said:Do these comparisons disprove the personality of Christ and Jehovah? I think not!
You make want to do further bible study and or research on the matter.
For if I call myself a bumble bee that gathers honey, does not mean I am a literal bumble bee, but like that of the insect, I am doing the work, and in doing so I receive such that allows me to life, currency (honey). For like a bumble bee, they take send honey back to their place of dwelling, in a sense, the currency received is taken back to your dwelling and is used to sustain yourself, and or your family, keeping a roof over your head, clothes on your back, and food on the table.
Not the best example, but it is evident of what I am getting at here.
12 hours ago, Cos said:As I have briefly shown the argument the NWT footnote uses for their assertion that the Holy Spirit is a thing is not a legitimate reason because when you study the Scriptures you will notice that Persons are often mentioned together with impersonal things.
As well as anything modified when the Greek Language is used, so it is not an assertion of the Watchtower, perhaps, once again, if you took the time to study the Greek language as I have, you would see that for yourself. The Footnote is a direct reference to “Helper” as seen in the verse in question, the very footnote points to that verse and clearly we see the modifier, regardless of what bible translation you use, the Greek modifier for a neuter word is there.
12 hours ago, Cos said:Their faulty premise is the reason that they say Jesus “used a figure of speech called personification” when referring to the Holy Spirit. But why would Jesus do that? In fact WHY would Jesus use the same terms to compare Himself and His disciples to “a force” figuratively?
Perhaps because the neutered word has been modified, pertaining to the Greek language whereas
A modified neutered word can be modded to a masculine and or a feminine (He, She, Him, Her, etc.)
It is not a claim made by the Jehovah’s Witnesses, in fact, this has been known for decades, even beyond the very existence of the Watchtower itself.
So to assume such about the NWT, you are pretty much claiming that everyone else is in the wrong for seeing (a) modified neutered word(s), that is silly on your part.
Again, Learn Your Greek.
For it is already established why Jesus said what he said and why such, the helper, is referred as such later on.
12 hours ago, Cos said:That whole claim by the NWT is absurd for it would make no sense to do so.
It makes no sense if you clearly do not know how the Greek Language is spoken and or applied in terms of Scripture, something you seem to be lacking.
12 hours ago, Cos said:Throughout this passages from John’s Gospel, Jesus ascribes the same or similar personal actions to the Holy Spirit as He does to the disciples and even Himself (e.g., I will go/He will come; I have things to say/He will speak).
Because, for like the 5th time (possibly more for this has been addressed in nearly everything you posted) the reason this is so is because the neutered word has been modified, it would seem that you are not just doing such on purpose – but being totally ignorant of the Greek language itself.
A neutered IT can be referred to a HE or a SHE if modified. Examples would be:
- Neuter to Feminine: Jennifer says the Sky is beautiful, saying SHE is blue just like the Ocean, and she (Jennifer) sees the planes flying about in HER. One day Jennifer will have to take her plane and fly in HER skies.
- Neuter to Masculine: Bob says the Sky is beautiful, saying HE is blue just like the Ocean, and he (Bob) sees the planes flying about in HIM. One day Bob will have to take his plane and fly in HIS skies.
- Neuter (Not modified): The Individual says the Sky is beautiful, saying IT is blue just like the Ocean, and (gender is unknown could be he/she or simply not mentioned) sees the planes flying about in the SKY. One day The individual will have to take a (gender is unknown) plane and fly in THY SKY.
At times the modifier could be reflecting that of who is speaking, so we can get something
When a neuter is modified, it changes the meaning of something or a place entirely, it does not indicate one is talking about a literal person
Common Greek Sense.
In fact all languages have some sort of modifier in them, just like we have 2 sexes, male and female, this applies to language as well, we know the sex of a noun and or adjective if the person who speaks it is either male or female, at times, the predominant is usually male, mainly in terms of who the writer is, for we know the writer of the gospel of John is John, not Janet (a joke).
Let's have an example
We know that John 14:26 says this:
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, HE will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
Let's say if it was not Jesus, but Mary Speaking:
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, SHE will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
Another example using John 15:26–27:
Original:
26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, HE will bear witness about me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning.
If Jesus and Mary's roles were in reverse:
26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, SHE will bear witness about me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with me from the beginning.
Now we know why the Helper is refereed to a HE is because Jesus, who is of course a male, is speaking from the very beginning of this passage. If it was, like in our example, Mary speaking, the Helper would be refereed to as a SHE. If no speaker is mentioned, it would be mentioned as either a HE or an IT, since A, we know neutered words that are no modified has no gender and B, bible writers tend to place a masculine gender in such a case. An example to similar to that above:
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in Jesus' name, IT will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that Jesus have said to you.
26 “But when the Helper comes, whom Jesus will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, IT will bear witness about Jesus. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Jesus from the beginning.
The verses would end up differently should the writer kept it neutered and not modified. But again, these are just examples.
That is what I have been getting at her since the last trick you pulled elsewhere on the forums.
12 hours ago, Cos said:It would be very strange to ascribe these personal actions in the same way and in the same statement to real persons and to a thing.
It is not strange unless you know what and how the Greek Language is used, especially during that time and era. Modern Greek still holds respect to the Language compared to its Koine Greek counterpart of ancient times.
12 hours ago, Cos said:John 12:49 “because I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak." (NWT)
John 16:13 “However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his OWN IMPULSE, but what things he HEARS he will SPEAK, and he will declare to you the things coming.” (NWT)
Total ignorance of what is addressed before.
12 hours ago, Cos said:In the dialogue in the upstairs room, Jesus compared the Holy Spirit to Himself, the comparison of one person to another. It makes no sense doing so if the Holy Spirit is not a person.
Goodness man, a neutered word can be modified…
12 hours ago, Cos said:Notice John15:26–27;
“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. And you also will bear witness…”
Note how Jesus says the Spirit will “bear witness” just as the disciples will bear witness (“you also…”). Jesus regards the Spirit as being just as much a Person as each of the disciples, and speaks of them in the same terms. <><
Again, a neutered word can be modified. We clearly see “Helper” here and who is speaking about the Helper. Jesus speaks of the Helper, therefore, the neutered word is modified to HE/HIM. Example, if it were Mary speaking about the “Helper” the neutered word would be modified to SHE/HER, if no one is making a reference, the “Helper” will remain has an unmodified word, remains neutered, no connection to masculine or feminine at all, thus rendered as is or IT.
Learn your Greek, learn how a word is modified because clearly you do not know anything pertaining to the language itself.
You stated that your knowledge of the Greek Language is called into question, this is exactly why. We also see the hypocrisy of trying to target an NWT translations (you are mixing both translations by the way) when outside of the NWT itself, regarding the Greek Language it will show you and say the same thing, I already posted said examples, of which you clearly ignored and still assert what your own interpretations are over what the bible entails, as well as what the Greek Language entails.
Also the cross-references will also be a major factor here, that disproves a portion of what you have already made mention of.
Clearly you no knowing about Masculine/Feminine and Neuter forms pertaining to the Greek Language. And you are jumping back and forth from 1984 to 2013 in terms of Translation, I stick solely to the ESV, I do not jump back and forth through translations unless I have to point something out as to why something is.
You really have to do the research more, you did the same thing with proskeneos, you do the same regarding Hebrew Language, and now we are back to Greek again, the fun never stops, does it?
Your claims are rather bleak, hence I speak, and say and say again, Learn your Greek because from what others and I myself is seeing from you, it is rather weak.
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4 hours ago, Cos said:
Strong’s dictionary has for the Hebrew word “echad”, Strong’s number 259; “A numeral from 'achad; properly, united, i.e. One…”
Ok. This has been addressed before, echad is an adjective, short definition is "one", achad, being just a previous Strong's, 258, is verb, short definition of collect."united" has no root to achad, as mentioned before I believe, and echad does have a root meaning to the word "united" yes, for this was address before - for numerically, it simply means one, uno, un, etc.
achad is a numeral form of echad.
4 hours ago, Cos said:My electronic version of Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament has “united” as one of the meaning for the Hebrew word (see pages 28-29 in the hardcopy version).
Anyone can look up what echad means because the Strong's is available to anyone who seeks it online. Those who studied the Hebrew language will know such a word off the top of their heads.
It is also known that echad, translated as "one", only, and or alone (root meanings) in the Hebrew Old Testament, has an occurrence of 962 to 967 times in the Bible, in addition, it has been translated some 903 times as the word "one", 5 times as the word "alone", and one time as the word "only".
4 hours ago, Cos said:Also the Ancient Hebrew Lexicon of the Bible has as the basic meaning for the word as “unity”.
Root meaning...
4 hours ago, Cos said:BDB also identifies the word as "plural" in meaning.
Echad is a numerical adjective and naturally enough is sometimes found modifying a collective noun...
BDB, I spouse Brown–Driver–Briggs - The Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, referring to Francis Brown, Samuel Rolles Driver and Charles Augustus Briggs? It will not help you that much... It has led into a discussion I had seen a while backing about God having a God and this was mentioned.
All in all, we cannot add on to what the Strong's say and or twist what it means, we cannot pick an occurrence of the word echad and assume it as something else vs it's numerical meaning. echad over here does not reflect echad over there, so to speak, I gave you several examples before, I won't waste time posting them another time.
5 hours ago, Cos said:According to the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament echad is closely identified with achad “the root meaning to be united” (page 30).
Tell us something we don't know.... >_>
5 hours ago, Cos said:Even though some deny the facts, the Hebrew word “echad” can and does have the plural meaning united.
Yet it cannot be proven when people take and twist a scripture into what it does not mean, example, Deuteronomy 6:4.
But it is no surprise some will try to see echad as something entirely different, but brush over the very foremost law that is understood clearly by many.
It seems the lesson has not been learnt last time so I will post echad and achad once again
- Echad - http://biblehub.com/hebrew/259.htm
- Achad - http://biblehub.com/hebrew/258.htm
I believe last time Yachid was used, but it will not do any help here either.
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5 hours ago, Brother Rando said:
You may be surprised to find out that the trinity doctrine does not accept Jesus Christ. It promotes a false gospel that ‘three separate persons make up God’ which is unbiblical. Therefore, it is not unusual to come across an apostate trinitarian who deny the teachings of Jesus Christ.
When Jesus Christ stated that ‘God is a Spirit’ in (John 4:24) trinitarians proclaim that Christ was lying because their doctrine teaches that God is made up of three separate PERSONS. In John 17:1 Jesus addresses his Father in prayer, he said: “Father,… and in John 17:3 he states, “This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God” Was Jesus addressing God the Father or the trinity itself?
Trinitarians proclaim he was not addressing the trinity itself, but God the Father. Wouldn’t that prove that the trinity is a False God? “He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god.” (2 Thessalonians 2:4)
As Jesus continue his teachings he states, “God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:24) Notice those worshiping HIM is in singular? Not ‘us’ ‘we’ they’ ‘them’ or even ME. Since trinitarians admit that the trinity is not God itself, aren’t trinitarians worshipping ‘gods’? None of them worship God the Father alone who Jesus claims to be the only true God in (John 17:3) Jesus Christ continues, “Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him.” (John 4:23)
According to Jesus, only the Father was to be worshipped, not a trinity of ‘gods’. Jesus made his Father’s Name known to his disciples. “I have made your name manifest to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.” (John 17:6) Jesus even went as far to teach his disciples to pray this way: “Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.”
If you take a closer look at the trinity doctrine, NONE of the Persons have a NAME. It’s a generic formula borrowed from Pagan Worship. Trinitarians shout and yell that, Jesus is God the Son in the trinity. But the trinity itself simply doesn’t give witness about Jesus. When asked to show the doctrine they often turn red and say that I must simply believe them. Then I ask, since the trinity doesn’t state that Jesus is God the Son, show one scripture that states that. They hee and haw in frustration and begin to taunt and curse not able to find a single verse. You won’t find God the Son or God the Holy Spirit in the Bible because it simply isn’t. There is a HUGE difference from God the Son and son of God. If Jesus is the son of God, then whose son is he? The trinity doesn’t have three sons does it?
Jesus is not the only person to give witness about his God and Father. The Apostles would greet one another with a similar phrase. “Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,” (1 Peter 1:3) The trinity omits the Name of God, and it omits the Name of Christ. Matter of fact, here is what the scriptures state about the trinity. “For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.” (2 John 7)
Have you accepted the mark of the Beast and not even know it? In Ancient times, the trinity was symbolized by three snakes, each snake would chase its own tail looking like the number 6. A time is coming, if you refuse to worship the trinity, you will be put to death. “And it was permitted to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who refuse to worship the image of the wild beast.” (Rev 13:15)
The trinity is the Biggest Occult ever, with a Worldwide membership of 2.8 Billion People and growing! Mankind who are both weak or strong, slave or king, such ones march in the streets to promote or protest. They place themselves above others claiming they have rights that no one else can have. They proclaim they even have the right to end life, should they carry a life inside them. They make themselves godlike and others have to bend to their superiority. (Read 2 Timothy 3:1-5)
Those who deny Wisdom, have actually denied Christ and have already accepted the mark of the Beast willingly. “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,” (Hebrews 10:26)
Feel free to contact me if you wish to leave the occult of the trinity. There is HELP.
I had to speak with a Trinity believer the other day and the conservation goes as followed:
Who is God?
Jesus.
Ok so who is the mediator?
Jesus
Who raised the Christ from the Dead?
God.
But you just said Jesus is the medator and that Jesus is God? If Jesus is God who did he raise from the dead and who is his mediator.
in a high tone of voice: JESUS IS GOD AND HE RAISED HIMSELF FROM THE DEAD
But the bible says God raised Jesus from the dead, making him Lord and whatnot.
Who is the one who died?
Jesus
Who raised Jesus from the dead?
Jesus
>_< Jesus is the Son
Is Apostle Paul and John lairs?
No.
Then why do you not believe God raised Jesus from the dead and that Paul addresses Jesus as a mediator to men to mankind?
No answer. begins to insult me for speaking bible truth.
(it leads to nonsense and some power ranger-sque evading tactics to not answer the question)
And then he goes on to Christian/Religious Infighting
You deny Jesus and all that jazz, yet he cannot answer questions that derive from the bible itself.
Trinitarians are like circus clowns, they do one thing, the next second, they do something else, in a sense, they do the same with the bible, adding things in there and twisting what the scriptures even means, leads to utter nonsense.
It comes to a point that even Muslims have to teach and refute Trinity believers on their own bible.
Other than that, good post, you do justice to those who are fed up with the Trinity, the very confusing doctrine that is part of the Christian decline problem.
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2 hours ago, Cos said:
Bible believing Christians understand the Hebrew word echad is used in the Old Testament to mean one and one alone. But we acknowledge that this word has two meanings: unified and the singular one (see Strong’s Dictionary and Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon to the Old Testament).
Actually it only has one meaning. I address that to you before, detailed actually, if you are forgetting. Echad, to a sense, just means one, not two, not three, not four, not infinity.
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/259.htm
2 hours ago, Cos said:For Christians the word "echad", used to describe God's oneness in Deut 6:4, is exactly what we would expect to find because it is the only Hebrew word that can denote a unity or unified oneness.
The use of echad in Deut. 6:4 is exactly what Trinitarians expect to find in the Bible because it is the only way in the Hebrew language to indicate to the reader that God is a unity of Persons. There are no other words in the Hebrew language by which such an idea could be expressed.
Addressed before when you tried to make it into something that it is not. And it is stuff like this why several specific groups give Christians a hard time with due to the man made interpretations of those who make echad into something totally different.
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2 hours ago, Cos said:Interestingly when Jesus quoted Deut 6:4 in Mark 12:29 and chose the Greek corresponding unifying word "hen" which is the same word used by Jesus in Matt. 19:5, "the two shall become one (hen) flesh. <><
Jesus was quoting the Shema Yisrael, the Foremost Greatest Commandment, among the very law that Jesus was born into, Galatians 4:4, the very law that Jews and Muslims recite today, as well as Christians who adhere to the Shema, referring to it as the Law and or the Law of Christ regards to what Jesus said to the scribe. The Shema is a literal affirmation and or acknowledgement that one has a God who is his or her Father, Jesus affirm this, even Paul affirmed this.
I really hate to use large quotes, but I, as do True Christians, do not like Christians butchering what the Shema is, and those who break or not recognize God's Law, Jesus had this to say in Matthew 7:23 -Â But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws.'.
s
Now then on to the large quotes, this one from Kel, I will not use a Hebrew Professor because it would prove to be a devastating blow.
Deuteronomy 6:4 The Shema Quote"Hear O Israel, the LORD our God the LORD is one." Â
"Hear O Israel, YHWH our God YHWH is one."Proof of the Trinity Error
The fact that Jesus was born under the Law and was required to observe the Law, demonstrates to us beyond doubt precisely WHO this passage is identifying: the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
ÂThe Evidence
1. The LORD is One or the LORD is Three?
While the text says that the LORD/Yahweh is one, Trinitarians would have us believe that we can also imagine a different idea into this passage, "Hear O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is three," or, "Hear O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is three yet one." Or, Trinitarians alternatively often imagine the text to be saying, "Hear O Israel, the LORD our God the LORD is one [divine ousia]. Simply contemplating these Trinitarian claims should be enough to cause one to seriously question the plausibility of the Trinitarian interpretation(s) of this verse.
Â2. "We Jews worship what we know for salvation is from the Jews." - Jesus
It should be obvious that Jesus' God was not any different than the God of Israel, the God of every Israelite. As a Jew under the Law, he was obligated to obey the Law and Jesus' God could not be any different than the God of Israel who is identified at Deut 6:4 as "OUR God." Christ's God was one person and one person alone: his Father alone, and nobody else. If his God was one person then so was the God of Israel.
Let the reader honestly contemplate one simple thing. When young Jesus was reading the Old Testament Scriptures, and he read about all the things his God had done, precisely WHO did Jesus have in mind? Is it remotely rational to suppose young Jesus was thinking about the good ole days when He Himself led Israel out of Egypt? Did he suppose that his God, the God of Israel, was he himself? How is that even going to make any sense? Or was Jesus supposing all those wonderful stories about the God of Israel in the Old Testament Scriptures, his God, were stories about the accomplishments of a three person being? Is it not far fetched beyond rational behavior to suppose such a thing? Or was young Jesus thinking about his Father and his Father alone, his God? If so, then is that not precisely who the Old Testament was talking about when it described all the things God had done?
Let us suppose the same scenario with young Jesus but let us also suppose we weren't talking about the Trinity here and that doctrine was completely out of view. Let us suppose we were simply focusing upon young Jesus and his Jewish life under the Law among a group of Trinitarians. We both know precisely WHO Trinitarians would suppose Jesus had in mind when he read about his God in the Old Testament Scriptures. Don't we? I can tell you how I know. Many times, I have observed Trinitarians acknowledge that the Old Testament Scriptures are simply references to the Father, at least until, someone says the word "Trinity," and then everything suddenly changes and a radical mind-shift takes place. Why? Is this word a signal to ignore reality for the sake of a creedal doctrine?
Trintiarians claim that the Jews did not know they had been worshiping a three-person-being throughout the history of the Old Testament and continued to do so until the Trinity had been revealed to them in New Testament times. However, Jesus declared the opposite. In the context of the appropriate worship of God, Jesus declared that the Jews worshiped what they knew (John 4:20-22). Trinitarians are nullifying Jesus' words for the sake of their tradition. Not only so, they fail to see the implications of Jesus' words, WE worship what WE know. Jesus is including himself among all Jews and saying that all the nation of Israel knew what they worshiped just as he himself knew what he worshiped. Jesus knew who he worshiped as the God of Israel: his Father alone. And Jesus used the word "WE" indicating that ALL Jews knew this and not just he himself.
Â3. Shema - the Foremost Command of the Law
Jesus also taught that the foremost command of the Law was the Shema command, that is, Deuteronomy 6:4-5.
28 One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “What command is the foremost of all?” 29 Jesus answered, “The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; 30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” 32 The scribe said to Him, “You are correct, Teacher. You have truly stated that He is One, and there is no one else besides Him; 33 and to love Him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as himself, is much more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 When Jesus saw that he had answered intelligently, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” Mark 12:28-34
As a Jew under the Law, Jesus was required to keep this command just like every other Jew. This is a very important fact that we must keep in mind and appreciate rather than ignore.
Â4. The LORD is one single "He"
At Mark 12:28-34, Jesus and a Jewish scribe agreed that the Shema is the foremost command. They also agreed that the words "the Lord is one" mean "He is one and there is no other but He. In this account, Jesus shows us that the Shema means "the Lord is one HE." So we know for certain that Shema means that the Lord is one HE, one WHO,while Trinitarians commonly read the notion, "the LORD is one WHAT" (divine nature) into the text ignoring nullifying the testimony of Jesus concerning the meaning of the Shema. For the Trinitarian, the LORD is three "HEs" (three persons) and one "What" (the divine nature as described in Trinitarian doctrine). But according to Jesus and this scribe, Yahweh is one single "HE/HIM" and there is no other but HE. Jesus and this Jewish scribe agree that the words "the Lord is one" mean that their God is one single HE.
While it is a fact denied by Trinitarians, reasonable people understand that the word "HE" or "HIM" are words used to refer to a single person. Signifying a single person is the very purpose of using singular personal pronouns. Hence, at Mark 12:28-34, Jesus' witness shows us that the Shema is referring to one person. And the proof is in the pudding when we honestly regard how Jesus obeyed the Shema. He observed the Shema command by recognizing and serving only one person as the God of Israel, his Father alone, "HIM."
Jesus agreed that the words "the Lord is one" mean "there is no other but "HIM." And we also know with absolute certainly how Jesus identified that one single HE.. We know how Jesus interpreted Deuteronomy 6:4 because we know how he obeyed it. Jesus showed us unambiguously what Deuteronomy 6:4 means. He did not identify this HE as a Triune being. The way Jesus obeyed the Shema command was to recognize and serve his Father alone as the one God of Israel, "OUR God." According to Jesus, that one HE was no one else but his Father.
Â5. "Yahweh OUR God"
It is also an extremely significant fact that the Shema says "OUR God." Let the reader understand that this command was given to the nation of Israel. It says, "Hear O Israel" and the words "OUR God" refer to all those Israelites under the Law. The Shema was a command to serve the God of every Israelite, the God of Israel, and that included Jesus because he was an Israelite under Law along with all of the rest of them and he was required to obey this command along with all of them. Jesus could not have interpreted the Shema to mean one thing while it really meant something else for the rest of the Jewish nation. This is because the command to Jesus was to serve "OUR God" not just his God. He was required to recognize "OUR God," that is, the God of Israel. He could not have interpreted the Shema to refer to one person while it actually meant three persons for every other Jew. Such a proposition is absurd. Jesus could not have possibly interpreted the Shema to refer to only his Father, which he did, while at the same time it referred to three persons for every other Israelite. Why? The Shema command says "OUR" God. Who then was "OUR" God? One thing is for certain, Jesus' God was not a three person being and he obeyed this command. Hence, we know "OUR God" simply cannot refer to a three person being.
Â6. The Father is not the Triune Being
In Trinitarian doctrine, the Father is not the Triune Being. That would be saying the Father is three persons which Trinitarians deny. In Trinitarian doctrine, the Father is but one person OF the Triune being. The Triune being is not the Father and the Father is not the Triune being. Because of this fact, Trinitarians cannot identify "God" in the Scriptures as both the Father and the Triune being. The following illustrates this fact.
"He is God and there is no other but He/Him." Deuteronomy 4:35.
Trinitarians simply cannot identify the "He" in the above verse as the Father. They must refuse to do so since that verse would then declare that nobody but the Father alone is God which contradicts Trinitarian doctrine. By insisting it refers to the Triune God, "HE", they are demonstrating to us that any given verse about God is either referring to the Triune being OR to the Father but not both. As illustrated by Deuteronomy 4:35, they can't have it both ways because they know very well it would make no sense. And it would make no sense because the Triune HE is not the same HE in their doctrine as the Father.
Therefore, it should be clear that in the same way, the Shema either refers to the Triune being or it refers to the Father. If "OUR God" refers to the Triune being, then Jesus was required to obey the commanded to serve the Triune being as his God. But if "OUR God" refers rather to the Father alone, then Jesus, and every other Israelite, was commanded to obey this command by recognizing only the Father as their God. And by his own testimony, Jesus shows us precisely WHO the Shema has in view: his Father alone. This is how Jesus obeyed the command to serve the God of Israel, "OUR God."
Â7. The God of Jesus = the God of Israel: "OUR God"
Throughout the New Testament, we find that the God of Jesus was the Father alone. His God was not a Triune being; his God was only his Father.
Jesus' God was one person: his Father. Jesus' God was a one person being: the Father alone. A one-person God is not the same God as a three-person God and for that reason we cannot say that Jesus' God was a three-person-being. A three-person-God is not the same thing as a one-person-God. Trinitarians testify themselves that if you do not serve a three-person-God as they do, they you serve another God, a different God.
Now since Jesus was born under the Law, and he was required to observe the Law, he was therefore required to observe the Shema, "Hear O Israel, Yahweh our God, Yahweh is one. You shall love Yahweh your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength." (Deuteronomy 6:4-5). Simply ask yourself how Jesus was expected to obey this command. Ask yourself who Jesus identified as his one God in order to obey this command. It is quite simple to see that Jesus did obey the command to serve "OUR God" he did this by serving his Father alone. It was his Father alone who he loved with all his heart and all his soul and all his strength. If we suppose the "OUR God" identified at Deuteronomy 6:4 is really a Triune being, then Jesus disobeyed the Law since he did not worship or serve any Triune being nor did he love a Triune being "with all his heart and all his soul and all his strength." Either Jesus knowingly disobeyed the Shema or the Shema is not referring to a Triune God. It is one or the other and there is no escaping that plain fact. Else Jesus also did not know his God was Triune like every other Jew (as Trinitarians claim), in which case, Jesus in his ignorance cannot possibly be the one God.
ÂConclusion
The undeniable facts confront us. (1) Jesus taught the Shema was the foremost command of the Law. (2) He agreed the Shema command "the Lord is one" meant that God is one single "HE." (3) As a Jew born under the Law, he was circumcised into the Law and required to keep this command of the Law. (4) And the command was a command to all the people of Israel to serve "OUR God," Israel's God. Jesus interpreted and obeyed the command to serve "OURGod" by recognizing and serving only one person. Jesus himself clearly proves to us what the Shema means by how he obeyed the command to serve "OUR God." He showed us that it necessarily means "the Father of Jesus is OUR God, the Father of Jesus is one" and that one must love the Father of Jesus with all his heart, soul, and strength. The testimony of Jesus's obedience to the Shema command to serve "OUR God" decisively demonstrates that the God of Jesus, who was/is one person, is necessarily equivalent to the God of Israel.
Should any of us reasonably suppose that when Jesus heard his brothers (Mary's sons) citing the Shema that he was secretly thinking, "There they go talking about me again" or perhaps, "There they go talking about US again" (a three person being). It is simply ridiculous. Or shall we reasonably conclude that Jesus, like all his Jewish brethren, interpreted the Shema in the same way - by recognizing and obeying only the Father of Jesus as his only God since only the Father was their God too? Is that not what "OUR God" means? And indeed, at John 4:2-22, Jesus indicates to us that Jews had been worshiping the Father in Jerusalem, worshiping what "we know."
It should be quite clear to anyone that Jesus' God was the Father alone and no one else. It should also be quite clear that Jesus was required to obey the Law and the Shema. It was not a Triune being which Jesus loved with all his heart and all his soul and all his mind. It was his Father alone. And if he indeed obeyed the Shema by serving and worshiping his Father alone as the only true God, then it should also be quite clear that only the Father is the one true God. Otherwise, Jesus knowingly disobeyed the Law and you are dead in your sins.
Jesus specifically identified "OUR God" for us, Israel's God; he identified the one God of the Shema command for us. And the way he did that for us is by showing us who someone under the Law must worship as his God: his Father alone. If Jesus worshiped the Father alone as his God but the God of the Shema, "OUR God," was really a Triune being, then Jesus our Lord either misinterpreted or disobeyed the foremost command of the Law. Either that, or Jesus did it right and Trinitarians are disregarding the testimony of Jesus on the matter concerning the identity of "OURGod" whom Jesus was commanded to serve. To deny these facts is simply an irrational response for the sake of a man-made doctrine. Let every reasonable person see that the facts here undeniably prove beyond any doubt whatsoever that the God of the Shema is identical to the God of Jesus, his Father alone, and cannot be said to refer to a three person being without contradicting Scripture and the witness of Jesus Himself.
Â"I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God." John 20:17 Related: Deuteronomy 4:35 Deuteronomy 32:39 Mark 12:28-34
Â
Some people will never change, and they continue to break themselves, piece by piece, trying so hard to believe they are right - when clearly they are wrong.
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3 hours ago, Cos said:
SCRIPTURE shows that the Holy Spirit is a Person, and when the Bible mentions the Holy Spirit we Christians do acknowledge those passages as referring to the third Person of the Trinity which some claim as absurdities.
Technically, it is, for the quote with said absurdities are not of my own, but they are address to be as an example, nothing more, nothing less.
3 hours ago, Cos said:But if the Holy Spirit is not a person but a designation for some sort of power then we would not find passages where both the Spirit and an influence are co-coordinately named.
Have you not read any verse regarding the Holy Spirit?
3 hours ago, Cos said:For example the words in Acts 10:38 "anointed with the Holy Spirit and with power" makes the idea that the Holy Spirit is a mere "force" or "attribute" as redundant, "anointing with power and power"(?). That is an absurdity!
Acts 10:38 - how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit[A] and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him[C].
Well if you consider it as mere, the cross references would shock you, and we clearly see here The Holy Spirit is not a person, let alone power, obviously, not a person. We know more information about Acts 10:38 from the cross-references, for we will focus on the one regarding the Holy Spirit itself.
Cross-References
[A]
Isaiah 11:2 -Â And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.
Isaiah 42:1 -Â Behold my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights; I have put my Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the nations.
Isaiah 61:1 -Â The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the Lord has anointed me to bring good news to the poor;Â he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
Matthew 3:16 -Â And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him;
The cross-reference for Holy Spirit in Acts 10:38 are spot on with what it is pointing to vs that of man's understanding of what the Holy Spirit is. We see in the first verse that the Holy Spirit that comes from God, our Father, each point this verse makes points back to Jesus, for instance, regarding Wisdom, Luke 2:52. Isaiah was not talking about a literal person of which you claim, for if he had, it would have been mentioned that the Holy Spirit is indeed a person, unfortunately - for you, no such thing was mentioned in Isaiah.
The same thing goes on with the other verses in Isaiah, and once again, a prophet, who is of Shaliach Principle, has never mentioned the Holy Spirit to be a person and or like a man, a person being etc. They speak of such of God's Angels, but never have they mentioned the Holy Spirit itself as a person.
In the Greek New Testament, pertaining to the verse mentioned above, the Holy Spirit appeared as a dove, it didn't come as a man or a person who came from the sky to see Jesus right after he was baptized, and I am sure John the Baptizer didn't see a man or a person descend upon his relative.
Doves are considered both a sacred use and having a symbolic meaning. Doves symbolized innocence and purity, as seen in Matthew 10:16, I don't need to explain offerings and the actions of Noah here because it is obvious. Regarding Jesus’ baptism, his God may have used the dove to call attention to the role of Lord Jesus - For Jesus' role was the Messiah (The Christ), the pure and sinless Son of God who would sacrifice his life for all mankind and lay-down the very foundation for a period of rest and peace during his rule as King - Messianic King. God’s spirit (The Holy Spirit), descended upon Jesus at his baptism, like a dove, for last I recall and I will say it again, we clearly see here no man or person has descended out of heaven during this passage, not to Jesus, not to John, and God who is witness of the event for he had a role to play.
So your so called exegesis for Acts 10:38 does not help you here, I do not see how you are denying the facts, for it was presented to you a couple of months ago.
3 hours ago, Cos said:Naturally we read in John 16:13-14 “…he {the third Person of the Trinity} will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own initiative, but what he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come…he will receive from what is mine and will declare it to you.”
What kills it for you is what the bible teaches and what the Greek language is all about when applied to the Greek New Testament, in a sense David (truth) just took down your Goliath (untruth).
The Holy Spirit itself is God's very own Spirit, hence what Jesus said about his Father in John 4:24, that God is a Spirit, whatever the Holy Spirit does, God is the one taking action, hence how Mary was able to have the baby Jesus by means of the Spirit, how Zechariah was able to speak again after being imbued with the Holy Spirit, how Elijah was able to be filled with courage by means of God's Spirit, for it is evident as to what and where the Spirit of Elijah originated from, etc. No bible account ever mentions the Holy Spirit coming as a literal person or a man to such people, and in some cases, if a literal person were to do some things in regarding some passages in the bible, it would be seen as rather.... Awkward and odd. In addition, tot he 3,000 people of the church as seen in Acts 2 (Remember this from before? Of course not), a person didn't show up, rather, people present were bestowed with the Holy Spirit (The promise from the Father of which Jesus spoke of had been poured out) as well as being baptized, and during that time, John the Baptizer himself was also present when this all went down, just like how he was with Jesus before he died/risen, The Holy Spirit didn't come as a person to no one, for if it had, the passage would have stated it - but it didn't, so you are adding to the scripture and going against Deuteronomy 4:2 and John 10:35.
John 16 13-14 is the same case with John 14:26, or in this case (John 14 and 16). The only reason the Spirit is called "HE" masculine is because in the Greek New Testament: Holy Spirit is Pneuma, which is a neuter noun (http://biblehub.com/greek/4151.htm). This means that the Holy Spirit has no gender whatsoever, but one key factor changes that, anything that modifies the neuter noun will pretty much specific what the neuter would be, that is, if you respect how things are done regarding the Greek Strong's. The Holy Spirit is refereed to as a HE because in John 14:16 the Spirit was given the title comforter (parakletos), which is Masculine, a noun (http://biblehub.com/greek/3875.htm). Therefore, this is the only reason why the Spirit was called HE in certain passages. Since the Holy Spirit is of God, it is usually refereed to as HE or HIM.
A side fact would be, in John 4:23-24, there is only ONE Spirit. Jesus teaches that God the Father is Spirit. Since there is only one Spirit, the Holy Spirit, Jesus is telling us WHAT God is. The Holy God is Holy Spirit by nature. That is His divine nature, the Spirit of Truth in which we must walk and worship.
3 hours ago, Cos said:Throughout this passages from JohnÂ’s Gospel, Jesus ascribes the same or similar personal actions to the Holy Spirit as He does to the disciples and even Himself (e.g., I will go/He will come; I have things to say/He will speak).
Again, you clearly do not know or understand how Greek works, mainly in the realm of Masculine, Feminine, and Neuter words and phrases and or person, places and or things. According to John, he knew how the language was spoken and written, clearly, you do not.
3 hours ago, Cos said:It would be very strange to ascribe these personal actions in the same way and in the same statement to real persons and to a thing.
Learn Greek, at least the basics.
3 hours ago, Cos said:John 12:49 “because I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak." (NWT)
John 16:13 “However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his OWN IMPULSE, but what things he HEARS he will SPEAK, and he will declare to you the things coming.” (NWT)
In the dialogue in the upstairs room, Jesus compared the Holy Spirit to Himself, the comparison of one person to another. It makes no sense doing so if the Holy Spirit is not a person.
I see you are using the 1984 NWT. But again, if you do not understand Greek, you will end up shooting yourself in the foot, what you missed is the very footnote that is on the bible of Jehovah's Witnesses, for they address the information clearly:
Quote from NWT footnote: that one: Both “that one” and “he” in verses 13 and 14 refer back to “the helper” mentioned at Joh 16:7. Jesus used “the helper” (which is in the masculine gender in Greek) as a personification of the holy spirit, an impersonal force, which is in the neuter gender in Greek.—See study note on Joh 14:16.
Footnote from NWT 1984: “That one,” masc., referring to “the helper,” masc., in vs 7.
Study Note Quote: helper: Or “comforter; encourager; advocate.” The word rendered “helper” (pa·ra?kle·tos) is used in the Bible to describe the roles of both the holy spirit (Joh 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7) and Jesus (1Jo 2:1). It could literally be rendered “one called to someone’s side” to give help. When Jesus spoke of the holy spirit, an impersonal force, as a helper and referred to this helper as ‘teaching,’ ‘bearing witness,’ ‘giving evidence,’ ‘guiding,’ ‘speaking,’ ‘hearing,’ and ‘receiving’ (Joh 14:26; 15:26; 16:7-15), he used a figure of speech called personification, that is, referring to something impersonal or inanimate as if it were alive. In the Scriptures, it is not unusual for something that is not actually a person to be personified. Some examples are wisdom, death, sin, and undeserved kindness. (Mt 11:19; Lu 7:35; Ro 5:14, 17, 21; 6:12; 7:8-11) It is obvious that not one of these things is an actual person. God’s spirit is often mentioned together with other impersonal forces or things, further supporting the fact that it is not a person. (Mt 3:11; Ac 6:3, 5; 13:52; 2Co 6:4-8; Eph 5:18) Some argue that the use of Greek masculine pronouns when referring to this “helper” shows that holy spirit is a person. (Joh 14:26) However, Greek grammar requires masculine pronouns when the activity of “the helper” is described, since the word for “helper” is in the masculine gender. (Joh 16:7, 8, 13, 14) On the other hand, when the neuter Greek word for “spirit” (pneu?ma) is used, neuter pronouns are used.—See study note on Joh 14:17.
Your assumption of those verses and about the Holy Spirit can easily sway those who do not know their Greek, but those who understand and read it, those who study it, will call you out by confuting. That being said, even beyond the information the Jehovah's Witnesses provide, it is enough to put your train on a full stop with your surface interpretations that ignore and disrespect the Greek Language, this isn't the first time you did this also.
From what I had seen before, you are clearly not a fan of Jehovah's Witnesses with an obvious disdain for them to show for it; why go about using their translation, why go that Old School with a 1984 edition though? Granted any translation will not help here you when Greek is applied... That is like hating on Muslims, but preaching from their Qu'ran in an attempt to speak of something you claim as true, makes absolutely no type of sense.
3 hours ago, Cos said:Notice John15:26–27;
“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. And you also will bear witness…”
Note how Jesus says the Spirit will “bear witness” just as the disciples will bear witness (“you also…”). Jesus regards the Spirit as being just as much a person as each of the disciples, and speaks of them in the same terms. <><
Once again, it is very cringy that you attempt to discuss on what the Holy Spirit is when you clearly do not know the very language that the New Testament derives from, which is, in a sense, very sad, for a Christian should know about Hebrew and Greek languages, at least the basics, but apparently that wasn't an elective for you. You really have to be honest, Cos, for instance, if a High School student can study Greek and know the differences in masculine, feminine and neuter and how something neuter can be modified, what is stopping you from learning the Greek language also.
From here on out, anything you say can easily be toppled like a Jenga Tower Set, literally.
You piece together some claims and odds interpretations, I, or anyone else will take a part from the tower, knowing that part is false, which results in anything said following over because nothing true is within that Jenga Tower - thus following down as the gravity pulls it down. You build with man made understanding, what you have build will fall with biblical facts, as well as the language the bible uses, Hebrew and or Greek... In this case, Greek.
I advise you to go read up some Greek (or Youtube/Google it even), than come back and speak about the Holy Spirit.
Â
PS: Regarding Helper, here is the Greek Strong's, again, consider it homework, it is the same Strong's number as with what was stated above, I am sure you are well aware of Strong's because last time you used it to discuss something that was totally incorrect - http://biblehub.com/greek/3875.htm
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On 5/2/2018 at 10:20 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:
AllenSmith:
You are confusing faith in the Almighty God, with gullibility drooling over the opinions of people neither inspired of God, nor infallible ... and even though they were forced by outside sources to admit it ... I give them credit that they did admit it .... even if it was almost hidden in the February 2017 Watchtower, as a synopsis of a hundred years of goofiness, pretending to be the Guardians of Doctrine, that they themselves made up out of thin air for their own profit and aggrandizement...
It has been known for quite sometime that Jehovah's Witnesses have already claimed to be not inspired and or infallible. In fact there is scores of information that dates back to the 1800s that further proves it, I do not know what the whole February 2017 thing you are mentioning, but I know enough Christian History to know who is who and who claims being not inspired vs those who claim who are, yet do something very silly.
Also, as I also recall, Restorationist do not make up doctrine either, The Great Awakening is very unique for a reason compared to false Christianity, despite Restorationism being the result of Christian minorities whereas some tend to be close and or closer to what is true than others, ironically though even the non-religious tend to fall in line with said believes due to cultural based reasons without realizing it.
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On 4/29/2018 at 11:08 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:
To support the concept of a triune god, and the Holy Spirit being a person ... I once cut a worm into three parts ... that he might have friends.
The thing here is that the Holy Spirit itself, people tend to make it as to what they want it to be vs. that of what the people says about what it is and what it can do pertaining to what it says about such in the scriptures, the same as they ignore who the Father is and or claiming that Jesus is the Father with a high disregard of what Jesus read, saw and did as a child into his teenager years, let alone what happen during his infancy, as to where Joseph and Mary had brought the young baby Jesus after day of circumcision.
In the end there is a huge line between those who know what the bible teaches, while on the other side, there are those who think they know what the bible teaches and decides to put what they know what is taught, thus making an accursed teaching, which Galatians 1:1-11 does not shy away from when it comes to speaking about things outside of what is taught.
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2 hours ago, Cos said:
In Mark 12:30-31 we have these words;
“Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”
We know from Matt. 10:37 and John 21:19 that Jesus does not fall within the second ordinance, therefore there only remains the first.
But you guys don’t like this fact and do whatever you can to explain away the clear teaching, claiming to look for certain words or phrases ignoring the obvious because you can’t conciliate the fact with that false theological perspective you have.
Mark 12:30-31, in fact, the entirety of Mark 12:28-34 is of Jesus affirming/acknowledging the Shema (Shema Yisrael) when he was with the scribe. Moreover, Jesus and the Jewish scribe show us how the Shema is to be understood. He proves that the oneness indicated in the Shema is a oneness of identity, not nature, and that the God in question is the God of both Jesus and this scribe.
The Shema is an act of being heard, as well as being an affirmation of one doing such acknowledging He/She has a God who is also their Father, for the Shema is based off the very law of the Jews, Deuteronomy 6:4-13 in the Torah/Tanakh (Hebrew Old Testament). Later on, Apostle Paul himself later on affirms the Shema also 1 Corinthians 8:6.
Plus to be more specific, Deuteronomy 6:4 which reads: “Hear, O Israel: The LORD [YHWH] our God, the LORD [YHWH] is one."
It is so great that even today majority of people practice the Shema, even the likes of Islam for they have it in the Sura 112, the Shema is not only famous, but holds the same kind of importance for us, just as it was important to Jesus, as well as the Jews.
A man or woman who really loves God acknowledges who He is, and want nothing more but to be heard by their Father in Heaven, who is also their God - The God of Israel.
The Jewish scribe qualified the Shema, "the Lord [YHWH] our God the Lord [YHWH] is one" by telling us these words mean, "He is one, and there is no other but He." And Jesus tells us that he responded intelligently. "The Lord is one". The words, "there is no other but He" means that HE is the only one, that is, "the Lord our God the Lord is one." Jesus and the scribe makes it clear to us that there is no doubt about the meaning of the words "the Lord is one" as well as the acknowledgment of the Shema Yisrael straight out of the Torah/Hebrew Old Testament.
Jesus also tells us this is the foremost commandment of the Law. As a Jew under the Law, he was required to obey this commandment like every other Israelite. And the commandment calls every Israelite to recognize the God of Israel, "OUR God." This command was for every Jew to recognize the God of every Jew. Jesus obeyed this commandment to recognize only the God of Israel by recognizing only one HE as his God, the Father alone. Jesus himself shows us how the Shema command was to be obeyed by every Jew - by recognizing only this one person, his Father, as the God of Israel.
In the end, Jesus refers to the Shema is referring, which refers to only one person: the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
John 20:17 - Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
As for Matthew 10:37, not many Christians take this verse literally, mainly when you couple it with God's Laws, which is also connected with what Jesus expects from the church. This verse connects directly to Matthew 19:29 and Luke 14:26.
And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name’s sake, will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life.
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.
This means if your love for Jesus, in turn your love to the Father is more stronger than that of those in your household or even a friend. For we know not everyone is cool with someone serving God, even that of family members, for they will consider the act of serving and religious worship to God as well as going by the words of Jesus is a daunting task, sometimes, they believe it is crazy, fanatical, something of that nature, other times they will try to stop you, in the end, your love for Jesus and for his namesake, and by means of the reward his Father will provide will reap eternal life, even though such family members are against you, friends, etc.
As said before, not many Christians take these verses seriously and literally, therefore, cherry picking the scriptures.
John 2:19 speaks for itself -that is, if one understands what Jesus was saying and what the Jews were assuming, in this case, the Jews were assuming Jesus was speaking about Herod's temple, but clearly they didn't understand or try to figure out what he met, which is quite obvious to the common bible reader.
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I would like to add this here since it is regarding the Holy Spirit. This is actually a quote containing verses pertaining to the Holy Spirit.
QuoteHoly Spirit Absurdities
If the Holy Spirit is the 3rd person of the Trinity then:
- Now the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, "See, I have called by name Bezalel, the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. "I have filled him with [the third person of the Trinity] in wisdom, in understanding, in knowledge (Exodus 31:1-3).
- Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your [third person of the Trinity] from me. (Psalm 51:11).
- Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My [third person of the Trinity] upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations. (Isaiah 42:1).
- I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I will have poured out My [third person of the Trinity] on the house of Israel," declares the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 39:29).
- It will come about after this that I will pour out My [third person of the Trinity] on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions. (Joel 2:28).
- "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with [the third person of the Trinity] and fire. (Matthew 3:11).
- Jesus, full of [the third person of the Trinity], returned from the Jordan and was led around by the Spirit in the wilderness (Luke 4:1).
- If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give [the third person of the Trinity to those who ask Him? (Luke 11:13).
- For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives [the third person of the Trinity] withthout measure. (John 3:34).
- Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of [the third person of the Trinity], Jesus has poured forth this which you both see and hear. (Acts 2:33).
- Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive [the third person of the Trinity] for [the third person of the Trinity] had not yet fallen on any of them... Then they laid their hands on them and they received [the third person of the Trinity]... Now when Simon saw that [the third person of the Trinity] was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money (Acts 8:14-15).
- While Peter was still saying this, [the third person of the Trinity] fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of [the third person of the Trinity] had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received [the third person of the Trinity] just as we have?" (Acts 10:43-47).
- But in my opinion she is happier if she remains as she is; and I think that I also have [the third person of the Trinity] (1 Corinthians 7:40).
- Did you receive [the third person of the Trinity] by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in [the third person of the Trinity], are you now being perfected by the flesh? (Galatians 3:2-3).
- By this you know [the third person of the Trinity]: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God (1 John 4:2).
- I was in [the third person of the Trinity] on the Lord's day (Revelation 1:10).
Other:
QuoteRather than describing the Holy Spirit as a distinct person or entity, the Bible most often refers to it as and connects it with God’s divine power (Zechariah 4:6; Micah 3:8). Jewish scholars, examining the references to it in the Old Testament Scriptures, have never defined the Holy Spirit as anything but the power of God.
In the New Testament, Paul referred to it as the spirit of power, love and a sound mind (2 Timothy 1:7). Informing Mary that Jesus would be supernaturally conceived in her womb, an angel told her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you …,” and he defined this as “the power of the Highest,” which “will overshadow you” (Luke 1:35).
Jesus began His ministry “in the power of the Spirit” (Luke 4:14). He told His followers, “You shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you” (Acts 1:8).
Peter relates that “God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power” (Acts 10:38). This was the same power that enabled Christ to perform many mighty miracles during His ministry. Likewise, Jesus worked through the apostle Paul “in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God” (Romans 15:19).
The Holy Spirit is the very nature, presence and expression of God’s power actively working in His servants (2 Peter 1:4; Galatians 2:20). Indeed, it is through His Spirit that God is able to be present everywhere at once throughout the universe and affect it at will (Psalms 139:7-10).
Again and again the Scriptures depict the Holy Spirit as the power of God. Furthermore, it is also shown to be the mind of God and the very essence and life force through which the Father begets human beings as His spiritual children. The Holy Spirit is not God, but is rather a vital aspect of God—the divine substance of the Father and Christ as well as the agency through which They work.
Divine inspiration and life through the Spirit
In its article about the Holy Spirit, The Anchor Bible Dictionary describes it as the “manifestation of divine presence and power perceptible especially in prophetic inspiration” (Vol. 3, 1992, p. 260).
Repeatedly the Scriptures reveal that God imparted divine inspiration to His prophets and servants through the Holy Spirit. Peter noted that “prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit” (2 Peter 1:21).
Paul wrote that God’s plan for humanity had been “revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets” (Ephesians 3:5) and that his own teachings were inspired by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:13). Paul further explains that it is through His Spirit that God has revealed to true Christians the things He has prepared for those who love Him (1 Corinthians 2:9-16). Working through the Spirit, God the Father is the revealer of truth to those who serve Him.
Jesus told His followers that the Holy Spirit, which the Father would send, “will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you” (John 14:26). It is through God’s Spirit within us that we gain spiritual insight and understanding. Indeed, we come to receive the very “mind of Christ” (1 Corinthians 2:16)—also referred to as the “mind of the Spirit” (Romans 8:27).
Christ had this spiritual comprehension in abundance. As the Messiah, He was prophesied to have “the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord” (Isaiah 11:2).
As the Son of Man on earth, Christ portrayed in His personal conduct the divine attributes of Almighty God through completely living by His Father’s biblical standards through the power of the Holy Spirit (compare 1 Timothy 3:16).
Now returned to the spirit realm, Christ wields the omnipotent power of the Holy Spirit along with the Father. The Holy Spirit, we should understand, is not only the Spirit of God the Father, for the Bible also calls it the “Spirit of Christ” (Romans 8:9; Philippians 1:19). By either designation, it is the same Spirit, as there is only one Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 4:4).
The Father imparts the same Spirit to true Christians through Christ (John 14:26; John 15:26; Titus 3:5-6), leading and enabling them to be His children and “partakers of the divine nature” (Romans 8:14; 2 Peter 1:4). God, who has eternal life in Himself, gives that life to others through the Spirit (John 5:26; John 6:63; Romans 8:11).
Impersonal attributes of the Holy Spirit
The Holy Spirit is spoken of in many ways that demonstrate that it is not a divine person. For example, it is referred to as a gift (Acts 10:45; 1 Timothy 4:14). We are told that the Holy Spirit can be quenched (1 Thessalonians 5:19), that it can be poured out (Acts 2:17, Acts 2:33), and that we are baptized with it (Matthew 3:11).
People can drink of it (John 7:37-39), partake of it (Hebrews 6:4) and be filled with it (Acts 2:4; Ephesians 5:18). The Holy Spirit also renews us (Titus 3:5) and must be stirred up within us (2 Timothy 1:6). These impersonal characteristics are certainly not attributes of a person.
It is also called “the Holy Spirit of promise,” “the guarantee of our inheritance” and “the spirit of wisdom and revelation” (Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 1:17).
In contrast to God the Father and Jesus Christ, who are consistently compared to human beings in Their form and shape, the Holy Spirit is consistently represented, by various symbols and manifestations, in a completely different manner—such as wind (Acts 2:2), fire (Acts 2:3), water (John 4:14; John 7:37-39), oil (Psalms 45:7; compare Acts 10:38; Matthew 25:1-10), a dove (Matthew 3:16) and an “earnest,” or down payment, on eternal life (2 Corinthians 1:22; 2 Corinthians 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14, KJV). These depictions are difficult to understand, to say the least, if the Holy Spirit is a person.
In Matthew 1:20 we find further evidence that the Holy Spirit is not a distinct entity, but God’s divine power. Here we read that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. However, Jesus continually prayed to and addressed God the Father as His Father and not the Holy Spirit (Matthew 10:32-33; Matthew 11:25-27; Matthew 12:50). He never represented the Holy Spirit as His Father. Clearly, the Holy Spirit was the agency or power through which the Father begot Jesus as His Son.
Paul’s example and teaching
If God were a Trinity, surely Paul, who recorded much of the theological underpinnings of the early Church, would have comprehended and taught this concept. Yet we find no such teaching in His writings.
Moreover, Paul’s standard greeting in his letter to the churches, as well as individuals to whom he wrote, is “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.” Yet in each of his greetings he never mentions the Holy Spirit. (The same can also be said of Peter in the salutations of both his epistles.)
The same greeting, with only minor variations, appears in every epistle that bears Paul’s name (see Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:3; 2 Corinthians 1:2; etc.) The Holy Spirit is always left out of these greetings—an unbelievable and inexplicable oversight if the Spirit were indeed a person or entity coequal with God the Father and Christ.
This is even more surprising when we consider that the congregations to which Paul wrote had many gentile members from polytheistic backgrounds who had formerly worshipped numerous gods. Paul’s epistles record no attempt on his part to explain the Trinity or Holy Spirit as a divine person equal with God the Father and Jesus Christ.
In all of Paul’s writings, only in 2 Corinthians 13:14 is the Holy Spirit mentioned along with the Father and Christ, and there only in connection with the “fellowship of the Holy Spirit” (NIV) in which believers share—not in any sort of theological statement on the nature of God. God’s Spirit, says Paul, is the unifying agent that brings us together in godly, righteous fellowship, not only with one another but with the Father and Son.
Yet here, too, God’s Spirit is not spoken of as a person. Notice that our fellowship is of the Holy Spirit, not with the Holy Spirit. As 1 John 1:3 tells us, “Truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ.” The Holy Spirit is not mentioned.
Paul states that “there is one God, the Father, … and one Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Corinthians 8:6). He makes no mention of the Holy Spirit as a divine person.
Other biblical perspectives
Jesus likewise never spoke of the Holy Spirit as a divine third person. Instead, in numerous passages He spoke only of the relationship between God the Father and Himself (Matthew 26:39; Mark 13:32; 15:34; John 5:18; John 5:22; etc.). The Holy Spirit as a person is conspicuously absent from Christ’s teaching in general. Of particular interest in this regard are His many statements about Himself and the Father, especially when He never makes similar statements about Himself and the Holy Spirit.
We should also consider that, in visions of God’s throne recorded in the Bible, although the Father and Christ are seen, the Holy Spirit is never seen (Acts 7:55-56; Daniel 7:9-14; Revelation 4-5; Revelation 7:10). Jesus is repeatedly mentioned as being at the right hand of God, but no one is mentioned as being at the Father’s left hand. Nowhere are three divine persons pictured together in the Scriptures.
Even in the final book of the Bible (and the last to be written), the Holy Spirit as a divine person is absent from its pages. The book describes “a new heaven and new earth” (Revelation 21:1) wherein “the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them” (Revelation 21:3). Christ, the Lamb of God, is also present (verse Revelation 21:22). The Holy Spirit, however, is again absent—another inexplicable oversight if this Spirit is the third person of a triune God.
Clearly, the Holy Spirit, from the evidence found in the Bible, is not a person in a supposed Trinity. Regrettably, the unbiblical doctrine of the Trinity obscures the scriptural teaching that God is a family—a family which, as we will see, is our ultimate destiny!Source(s):
https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/booklets/who-is-god/the-holy-spirit-is-not-a-person
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9 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:
The above quotes from David Splane, reiterated by Witness show that the younger AND older members of the Governing Body are proudly progressive.... enough to call it to our special attention so we do not miss it and are encouraged that even THEY are becoming more and more, and in fact ARE more and more politically correct, and "with it".
Being conservative or "progressive" has strong political overtones, and with all of humanity outside of Jehovah's Witnesses, "progressivism" is causing the collapsing of civilization by people who melt at the slightest pressure or mental stimulation they don't see ...and having conversations with them is like trying to walk on egg-shells without crunching them.
I see no difference inside Jehovah's Witnesses.
Seeing with how religion in general, mainly Christianity, there tends to be a difference between those in the mainstream and those that are among the minorities denominations of Christianity.
Other then that there are also Liberal Christians (Liberal Christianity), which does not stem to far from the Conservative tree. They differ, but their goals remain the same, as well as their political views, and we will see that again in full effect this October of 2018 in Texas.
The progressivism era was like 1890s to like 1920s/1930s, what is causing society to collapses right now is Capitalism and Nationalism, hence the widely spread and talk about Marxism, Zionism and the like, in the end, it all boils down to the global political mafia themselves.
They want power, thus bending all persons to their will and power by means of action and influence.
They want wealth, for they are willing to even go head to head with other countries to gain such wealth, for instance, Syria, for such persons already took out Libya and reaped its resources, as well as the resources of other countries close and or far from the US and allies, such resources such as oil (gas prices tend to vary in the most odd circumstances nowadays because of this tug-o-war).
They want single government, religion and educational system. They want their government to be head and in control for the betterment of themselves and the people re as puppets,for the government can take action against someone be it Just or unjust, but regardless of the outcome, it is corrupt and not many people trust the government now and they not trust now in the future, mainly when such a government has killed innocence in the past and started unnecessary conflict. They want a single Religion, the very reason they put the Vatican up to task to gather the world's most brilliant minds and religious leaders to join forces in unity, the conquest of peace as they say, and every month such a group gets bigger and bigger and their influence spreads like a virus to the masses, hence what we got in 2016, 2017's kairos, and like before, October 2018 in Texas will be no different, and inwards. They will shame other religions who do not join them and the government. In the realm of Education, they want to teach the masses of children one thing, and one thing only so they can build a better society to which the government sees sees fit, for any brilliant mind who comes with some unique idea, eventually the government will take and use it for their own benefit, as was done in the past and will be now. In this sense, the children will easily be susceptible to such an education that is being pushed by the government for their minds is like a sponge and taking in this knowledge. People today, as they grew older wised up, but majority have not, those that consider Columbus a hero, those who think the Holocaust was a hoax, just to name a few.
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A bit off topic:
Speaking of false teachings in the realm of Education,
I had an experience once as a younger person myself, Thanksgiving, I use to think it was alright, until I saw marching Native Americans who deemed the holiday as a day of mourning (National Day of Mourning), for their people had been subjected to slaughter and rape, as well as diseases that were alien to them, not to mention stealing.
When people could this out, they questioned holidays such as this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Day_of_Mourning_(United_States_protest)
But yeah, that is what the era of which we live in as we speak. Eventually it will come to a point whereas the US allies, Israel already, as well as the United Nations will start to mess around with the people. The UN had done some actions already themselves, but the people retaliated, but it does not stop them from doing the will of their late Spiritual Mother, to infiltrate and influence the people, the churches, the schools, etc.
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10 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:
You really love the tone of your voice, do not you?
You did not understand absolutely what I wrote, but obviously you love to listen to yourself.When it comes to anything biblical I am critical, this goes for anything as well as false claims, false information or anyone's means to twist scripture and or the very bible canons itself. Anyone who is familiar with my posts here and how Christians operate at CSE, they'll know that when it comes to anything of the like - the responer is and will always be, critical, at the same time confutes any accusations and or claims big or small, should said claim is false or in error.
The community in question is here: [1] https://christianity.stackexchange.com [2]Â https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com both of which that are connected and should you do the same there as you do here, I can say you will be met with serious criticism, an they do not take religion/Christian Infighting lightly and will point that out if need be.
I understood what you wrote also,but it does not shield the claims and accusations that are stitched into some of the comments of yours.
10 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:I apologize for my poor and imperfect English; you try to understand.
No worries, as long as everything is readable, you are fine.
10 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:I did not skip the second part of 1 John 4: 1 to twist a writing.
On the contrary: this writing you have to apply to my statements.?I wrote that the war between Russia and the USA will break out (including the N.A.T.O nations) and this is a biblical prophecy.
The cause of the outbreak of this war will be Babylon the Great (or the nation of Israel) and it is for this reason that "in her the blood of all those killed on earth is found".NATO is US backed, they are among the list of US allies that will help them in a warmongering conquest. The thing is, Russia does not want war, period, but the actions of the United Nations and the Deep State, is pushing the US and allies to seek war with Syria, and Russia, and their allies, even among the UN, do not want this, and are open to defend Bashar Al-Assad, of whom the US blamed for him for chemical attacks, mind you, Assad was not the man who attacked his own people, let alone killed the Christians int he country, it was the actions of Jayish Al-Islam, the very enemy of Assad of whom the US and allies is supporting, said group, if part of Al-Quedina, you can see the details of the information in my post down below:
If that isn't enough for you, one of my sources made it very clear of who the US an their allies, even the UN, is supporting against Syria, Russia and the like. Mind you the video is a bit graphic, even though some parts are blurred.
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As for the Harlot, Babylon the Great, she is not just the current Israel alone, she is all over the place, even in America, etc. When the Nations start to dwell within the realm of religion to the point they begin to stamp out other faiths, you'll know what time it will be, and for some, it will be way too late. Russia and their allies are not so cool either, but they are the pieces on the chess board, in turn, still part of Babylon the Great, an example would be, they allowed Satanist to mess around with Jehovah's Witnesses before banning them, elsewhere all people who oppose the RoC will be met with serious, serious consequence, no matter what age you are, regarding US and Israel allies, the ones they supported, they shot up and killed a Christian family, dumbing their bodies in a single well of which the village gets their water from, the very reasons why Christians, right now in Syria, have sided with Bashar Al-Assad because enough was enough, and US is marked as an enemy, while Israel and Saudi Arabia will attack with sheer brutality should Iran congregated in Syria - after all, Israel was the one who jumped the gun on the April attack.
There is no doubt something big will happen, but God himself will take action at a specific time of which he had chosen, which is unknown to all of us, for we do not know when the Father will speak on the day of Judgement to start, people can guess, people can wait, but they will not know what the Father knows.
But should it interest you, there has been a lot of talk about religious unity, something is to happen in Texas in a couple of months, Babylon's view of religion, as it was done in 2016, will be done in Texas in the month of October, if you live in the US, I suggested you not go to such an event, despite how peaceful they try to make it.
11 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:This is the main reason (not the only one) for which Babylon the Great must be destroyed. However it will not be destroyed during this first attack but it will be destroyed near the war of Armageddon (which is still future, and does not concern this terrible war).
Ok, but now you are contradicting yourself with what you said before, a claim that still has no source or answer to. Other than that, H'armageddon is already know and before it does happen, times brutal tribulations will ensue, as far as I know, people have already made bunkers. It may be on point like those old dystopian future based movies, but more realistic and difficult.
11 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:Now, the point I wanted to make clear is this (be careful).
Are the statements I have just made true?
Are they false?
is this a correct interpretation or is it false?Since you do not want to question yourself in the light of the Scriptures, I wrote "stay and watch what happens".?
If what I wrote does not come true, then you can remember this conversation with a smile, thinking about how I was naive, stupid, presumptuous or even "false prophet".
Well then, if you think as such, I suggest you give proof and a source to these claims of yours:
- Â Moreover it has been said that Jehovah will not allow a third world war because otherwise "no one would survive".
Â
You made this comment, if you want to proof yourself as not false - give proof to a source to such a claim.
- I do not know what you think but the WT has said that "all the prophecies have been fulfilled and that we are waiting only for the cry of peace and security and therefore the attack on false religion". Moreover it has been said that Jehovah will not allow a third world war because otherwise "no one would survive".
The Same can be said about this one, you said this and I confuted, as did with the other claims.
As for the false accusations, anyone who is families with my comments will not the things you have said directed to me - is indeed, false.
Other then that, you can prove yourself right now to give detailed proof to the 2 items mentioned above, otherwise, 1 John 4:1 is applied here, thus making these things, these claims of yours - as false, therefore, your spirit has been tested without much of an effort.
If you know who I am by means of my history on this forum, I am someone who does not like dishonesty, and I know dishonesty when I see it, even in the smallest error.
11 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:So when I mentioned 1 John 4: 1 (I repeat) I did it to reiterate this concept.
Since nobody really cares (apparently) to elaborate on a topic in the light of the Scriptures, I can not do anything but publish the mkie research and leave all the "debates" to you.I told you, I believe twice to post such in detail, which you have not, that is why my older comment was more inline with what 1 John 4:1 is really about, I even took the time to cited my source and proof of the claim in regards to this verse, if you missed it, it was the colorful one not to far up:Â
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11 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:I believe that instead of making unnecessary debates, we should study the Bible without cultural or religious conditioning (this means loving one's religion above the Bible) and this statement was addressed to all those who feel safe and think they already have all the answers.
But you make it religious by using scripture against a religious group, The Jehovah's Witnesses, this act is called Christian Infighting, or in another term, Christians Persecuting Other Christians, not on doctrine mind you, but on the belief itself.
Other then that, it was not a debate, per-say, it was more of a correcting of the wrong, for knowing me, leaving something that is in error going unchecked will only cause more damage later on - and error does not sit well with me or anyone else, mainly if a claim is coined with no proof.
And I'll say it again, it is outlandish for a man to love a religion over the bible, for this claim makes no sense, I even posted the definition of religion, but I do not think you have read it, this time I will link:
I hope you never make that claim to someone in person, for if you do, they will critique you on what the word Religion even means, which in itself speaks more than the claim you are bringing up right now.
Religion basically mean the practice of a faith = Christian/Christianity = teachings = adhere to God's Spoken Word and the practices of His Son, and examples left by us by the followers = She Being Part of us, She meaning The Church, of which the Christ is the Head of.
If in your eyes people love a religion, they we should all be guilty of being Christian, regardless of denomination, we can take it a bit further, all Religions of all branches are guilty, but the false ones and the true ones. See? Does not make any sense, hence why I linked you the definition.
11 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:We should take advantage now, now that we are living a period of relative tranquility, to make Biblical knowledge our protection - Ecclesiastes 7:11, 12
Advantage of wisdom
11 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:We should take advantage now, now that we are not yet under the tribulation, to "beg in every time to escape what will have to happen" - Luke 21:36?
This, in general, does not happen because you all feel in an iron barrel.
You have all the answers because your religion gives you false assurances - Isaiah 28:18Being Awake and making supplication in regards to the Luke verse.
Isaiah 28:18 is regarding the death and the grave. And no it is not because of my faith, it is because I study the bible day in and day out. And due to biblical studies, discernment to root out error and falsehood as well as dishonesty.
It would seem you have no learned from making false accusations, yet you want to play that card again, we can go about that as soon as you post proof to 2 of your claims, otherwise, the table would have turned twice for you.
11 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:You have raised the words of some men above the words of God and this means "to adore one's own religion" above God.
Who are these men you speak of? If you read any of my history here, I tend to keep God's Word as number 1, that is why I always mention this word hermeneutics, which means the branch of knowledge that deals with interpretation, especially of the Bible or literary texts.
Can you cite a source for one who "adore one's own religion"? This is the first time I ever heard such a claim in regards to someone of a faith. I hope you do have a source for this one, so this brings the count to 3.
11 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:I do not want to have any further discussions about it.
There was nothing to add to my previous comment.
I wrote "you are watching what happens" and the implication was "look if what I wrote is true, or it does not come true".Then next time pick your words wisely, and your claims, otherwise they will be confuted.
So how what is true about God and World War 3 comment from you? What about the false claims whereas everyone here knows how I respond and yet you make a false claim against me? How IÂ this true?
Just as Jesus had did, I stand and confute those who make such error and dishonesty, regardless of who that is a Muslim, a JW, Unitarian, Black Israelite, etc.
If someone makes an error, a twist in scripture, infighting and outlandish claims, and the like - they will be confuted, and they will be met with actual criticism to their false claims, therefore, such ones have their spirits tested, and will be rooted out for their error, no matter who it is.
11 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:Continue with your criticism, your comments, your debates ... go and see every comma, make a lengthy discussion.
Cite your sources and perhaps things would be different. This I still await, otherwise, those claims, like the false accusations, are deemed a lie, therefore, is false.
11 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:I conclude with exactly what I wrote at the beginning.
On the contrary, I use the same "modus operandi", so maybe you will not make another long and useless novel.
1 John 4: 1 reads: Beloved, but test the spirits [inspired statements] to see if they are from God (B), for many false prophets have gone out into the world (C).
So ... "watch what happens".
Have a good timemodus operandi does not change God's Word and what His Word means, let alone His laws.
It may be a novel to you, but I give detail of what is true and nothing but truth as well as pointing out error, such as the ones you claim and it is clear as day to all here who reads on this very thread. Next time you want to make claims, make sure it is true, this was the case with 2 others on this forum who have been exposed for their error, count that, it is 3, for there was whereas I gave a history of Christians banning something.
Also if you are going to make a false claim, make sure it is not in the sight of those who are real Bereans who can act upon their discernment and defend what is true no matter what, even if it means rooting out the lies painted on others, which you have done, and the error on your part about God and World War 3 comment.
I won't be having a good time, like a Christian, I will be vigilant,and enduring, no matter what, and doing what the early Christians and our fathers have been doing, teaching the real truth of the gospel and defending it, as well as rooting out falsehood of those who try to push their mainstream Christianity over the truth.
As for the claims, you can either say nothing, so we know the conclusion, or you can attempt, but will result in the same outcome, unless what you had said is indeed true, then it would be different, other then that I suggest you read up more on what is going, mainly about the nations and religions perhaps you will wonder why a specific faith is declining all over the world, hence why they side with those in government.
Other then that, you are indeed smart, but it seems you are still blind for the errors you spouted out in your comments, but the more you read, the more out of the blindness you dissolve.
The truth will set you free, do what you will with it, should you choose it.
PS: before you wanna take shots again in regards to my beliefs, I suggest you do some homework on how I am, which is very easy to see by means of my profile history.
- Thinking and JW Insider
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4 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:
I had made a comment but then I realized it was not worth it.
This is why I canceled it.
Continue to shake hands.
Good continuationJust next time never make claims that cannot be backed up and or false accusations because the very verse that is in question, 1 John 4:1, can and will be used against you in regards such. As a Christian, you have to tread carefully, otherwise there will be those who will pick up and cause what you say to backfire on you and you alone by means of critical unshakable truths.
Those who study the bible do there best to not make such an error as you just have, in regards to the bible, even Jesus himself was falsely accused and we can see how he defended what is true and himself when challenged by Pharisees and those who do not like him or what he had to say.
But as for your more direct false accusations, I will consider it as nothing more than water under the bridge, so to speak, for this time, and perhaps you will now know there are serious people on this forum as realized - you just discussed with one and it will happen again should any error or false claim is coined - for I myself come from a very neutral, and yet highly critical and very serious community that consist of solely biblical readers whereas the slightest of error there will result in a very strong confutation, not a mere refutation.
Other then that I will leave this here as a reminder, for this below does not apply to a specific faith and or other, it applies to all people who make false accusations and or the enabler, the one who makes such claims:
QuoteWhat does the Bible say about false accusations?
Regarding false accusations, the psalmist says, “For they do not speak peace, but against those who are quiet in the land they devise words of deceit” (Psalm 35:20). This is an accurate description of the motives and results of false accusations. People lie about the innocent in order to stir up trouble. This happens on every level of society, from the halls of your local high school to the halls of the Pentagon. People accuse others falsely as a revenge tactic or power play or when they think they have something to gain. There is no need to state that this behavior is unbiblical in the extreme.
The command against making false accusations is one of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:16). According to Mosaic Law, someone who accused another person falsely was to receive an ironic punishment: “The judges shall inquire diligently, and if the witness is a false witness and has accused his brother falsely, then you shall do to him as he had meant to do to his brother. So you shall purge the evil from your midst” (Deuteronomy 19:18–19). The Law also specified that the punishment of a false witness was to be carried out without pity (Deuteronomy 19:21); it is a serious thing in God’s eyes to make a false accusation.
The folly of making a false accusation is illustrated in the book of Esther. A man named Haman, a nobleman in the court of King Ahasuerus, devised a plot to frame a Jew named Mordecai and have him hanged on a gallows fifty cubits high. Haman sought to ensure Mordecai’s death by means of false accusations. Haman devised this plot because he hated Jews, and he especially hated Mordecai because Haman was jealous of a favor Mordecai had received from the king. But Haman’s plot was found out, and the punishment for Haman’s treachery was poetic justice—he was hung on the very gallows he had constructed for Mordecai (Esther 5:9–14; 6:4).
Those who make false accusations are under God’s judgment (Psalm 5:6). As followers of Christ, we can expect that people will sometimes make false accusations against us, but hear Jesus’ encouragement: “Blessed are you when people . . . falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven” (Matthew 5:11–12). No matter what others say about us falsely, we rely on God’s Word: “Though the arrogant have smeared me with lies, I keep your precepts with all my heart. Their hearts are callous and unfeeling, but I delight in your law” (Psalm 119:69–70).
Jesus Himself faced false accusations from the Pharisees and their followers. Isaiah prophesied this when he said of the Messiah, “He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth” (Isaiah 53:7). Even Pilate, the Roman governor who oversaw Jesus’ sentence, knew that Jesus had done nothing wrong, but he pandered to the Jews and allowed the false accusations to stand (Matthew 27:22–26).
According to the Mosaic Law, those who falsely accused the Son of God should have been themselves crucified. Instead, Jesus looked down at the soldiers and the rulers who were scoffing at Him and dividing up His clothing, and He said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do” (Luke 23:34). This was an indication that the Mosaic Law had been fulfilled by Jesus’ sacrifice and that a new law of forgiveness and mercy through faith in the Lamb of God was now in place for all who would believe in Him. “For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ” (John 1:17; 3:16).
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@Israeli Bar Avaddhon You do realize I can still see the very comment of which you removed? There is a good reason as to why I call myself Space Merchant, although I can spot half of the comment, which I will quote:
You stated: I have no interest in continuing this conversation with people who prefer to repeat that their religious organization is the right one, that it is never wrong, and that it does not intend to question its own convictions even with the Scriptures.
I concur, for if one brings up a claim and holds it to a high regard and or with strong conviction, such claim should have a source as to such, in your case, 1 John 4:1 can be applied to you, for you brought the claim of several things, but lack an actual and or credible source of said claim, which turns can be deduced to be made up and or said just because whereas actually evidence of said claim does not exist, thus making such obsolete and a total lie to mislead any reader of this topic.
And no one is repeating anything pertaining to a religious organization, the problem is, you are making claims you cannot back up with credible sources, which I will post shortly in this response.
And again you make accusations, which you cannot back up. As I recall, even though this forum is a hub for Christians in the Jehovah's Witnesses faith, not everyone here is a Jehovah's Witness as do some who are not part of a religious backing and or read the bible enough to understand hence why people seek questions from those who can explain something to them, but they are welcome to join this forum and have their say and share some things, but it has not occurred to you probably - unless you are blind to that very solidified fact, which is deemed true to anyone who has access to this forum as a member and or a guest who reads the threads and discussions here.
Oh, and everything has to be done by the Word of God in terms of Scripture, not twisting it, changing it, nor using it for a sick gain.
You stated: I think it is right to make my research and Scriptural reflections available, but discussing or polemics is useless.
There is no issue with that, but the problem you face is with said research you can easily mislead others, and assume that what your research is final judgement for any man, woman, or child who professes said faith, when people know very well everyone is distinct and different from each other regardless of their religious background. For instance, you may know JWs, Muslims, and Jews in the a specific state and county in the US, but you do not such ones who live in the micro islands, in Asia, perhaps India or Iran. Same faith yes, but each of them differ, some more stronger in biblical studies and understanding than others, while those who lack tend to be easy target of any Anti-Christian and or Anti-Religion person who crosses paths with them.
You stated: If you are really interested ...
Buddy, I am more interested in a source and a detailed answer to claims.
The lite stuff as mentioned below, in case you didn't see the response or realize what I as getting at.
- Since you do not want to really study the Bible with no religious or cultural conditioning, "we stand by and watch."
Any man or woman who claims biblical hermeneutics should tell you something, and I have claimed this many, many times as well as my understanding of scripture and history in Christianity, in addition to the study of the language. It is one thing to study the bible, but it is another thing to understand what the bible teaches, for studying the bible alone will not help you, mainly when tasked and put in a position to answer basic, but still somehow complex questions, of which people want to seek answers to.
That being said, if the bible gave clear instruction that we should not be idling as Christians, why the response from you?
- Obviously during the war that will break out (next, unfortunately) the WT will say exactly what he said during the first and during the Second World War. He will say that "this is really the last and will end with armageddon". Yet another affirmation that will demonstrate biblical ignorance. The war will not lead directly to armageddon.
So if the WT has already had a state on something why contradicted it with the response you have given about the group? Let alone the information presented by those who are neutral with and or not a fan of the Watchtower at all, for if their word is true, why bring a contradicting statement?
- I do not know what you think but the WT has said that "all the prophecies have been fulfilled and that we are waiting only for the cry of peace and security and therefore the attack on false religion"
I study the history of Christianity (a great deal of it to the point it plays like a documentary movie in my head), apparently I do know more about the Watchtower as well as I know about other Christian faiths, the Sunni and Shia beliefs in Islam and many other faiths, for to speak on terms with one person, you have to understand where they are coming from and why, hence the study of religion and faith - Theology. The cry of peace and security has resulted in the creation of the Interfaith Institute that had the Pope do his little events at a UN gathering, as well as his actions in 2015 to 2016, especially Washington DC, just recently prior to the Syria Attack done by the US, Israel and backed allies, Peace and Security has been mentioned and soon after that the actions taken by Christians in Syria against the people you claim to be just, the Israeli gov't, as well as their allies, the head of the group being the US. But one never notices the actions of religions when Peace and Security is uttered, just wait until the One World Region takes full effect, perhaps only then you would see, but it will be a bit late.
That being said, you really do not believe that the false prophets who have religion as a front will not be attacked? They are going to throw something down in Texas in October to gain more people on their side, for the bigger they get, the more bigger the target gets on religious minorities and eventually the nation will attack religion, for if you are against them, or as the political communication phrase goes - "you're either with us, or against us"
- Moreover it has been said that Jehovah will not allow a third world war because otherwise "no one would survive".
Who said this, and how are you so sure of a claim that it seems to be that you are the only to "make this up" for it cannot be found anywhere else expect your comment? This is why I stated, if you make a claim, back it up with detail and or sources, otherwise your spirit will be tested and in this case, it came out as a negative, until valid proof is presented.
This is the very problem that a lot of people face with those who claim rapture before end time tribulations, for they make the claim but do not have proof to back it up, which hurts them even more is that the bible says otherwise. Perhaps next time you mention something, make sure it is valid and or that the source itself can be seen, read and verified. We should not resort to dishonesty to mislead the masses, and seeing that I literally know the actions of the government and politicians because I literally dive into this stuff, mainly with the situation of a world war for I have a very very VERY strong source in this regard, and I presented my information elsewhere on this forum, you can look for it in my activity.
- The Bible teaches that the king of the north (which is Russia) will attack Israel (the true nation of Israel, which at present is Babylon the Great and not "the world empire of false religion") and this attack will lead to an escalation of other wars that will lead to the clash with the king of the south (the Ango-American empire, one of the few correct things said by the wt).
So how is a nation true and pure if they are able to snipe and shoot down innocent civilians who are not for the corruption of Israel? I am not a fan of RT, but somehow they manage to get the footage, which describes what I am talking about.
So is this God's people as you claim to be true? Mind you, the Israelis shot and killed a 15 year old who was walking away in the opposite direction. As I last recall, the Israeli government is part of Babylon the Great, for the group that the Pope is part of, the group in origins is Israel. The United Nations and the Deep State have their hands deem in the very team they want to win, anyone on the side of the US and those who are connected to the US alone, and such ones are against those who are against US's conquest, the very reason why Israel is now in conflict with Iran, who is teamed up with Russia. But what is interesting is this alone contradicts your previous claim.
As for Russia, they are not too clean either, but there is a clear reason as to why they are against the One world agenda, the very reason why the Pope is trying to join both sides, which will result into something far worse, for the last time the Pope came into contact with the Russia's church, the JWs got banned and the kidnapping of civilians took place in Chechnya, and the Ukrainian Christians were very angry over what the Pope had said about them to the RoC.
Also again, it would be kind if you were to post an actual source and or the very saying on the WT's side rather than just saying it to expect people to believe words without fact. So this is the reason I stated the following of still awaiting a detailed source to such claims, perhaps then I would understand where you are coming from, but in this instance, one can apply 1 John 4:1 to the claims you mentioned, for if you say something, it has to be deemed as true, for if it is not true, the very notion of 1 John 4:1 will be subjected to you in telling something that is false and deeming it to be true - that is, if you have real information of said things mentioned.
As for the accusations however, despite that being false, I would not hold it against you, for as I said, this is the very first time you/I have discussed with you/me. So I would not hold such against you, but should you expand on the notion of false accusations, expect a not so pleasant confutation, for a confutation is far more critical than the average refutation.
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
The Holy Spirit
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It isn't a silly question for if you did traveling and spreading of the gospel, questions like this are asks, mainly for those who want to go into scripture with total discernment in what the truth is.
God is indeed a person, he has many qualities, love, wisdom, justice, etc, hence the fruit of the spirit as seen in Galatians 5, the same qualities that Jesus himself expresses, God is love, Jesus also expresses love, which is one of many examples. God speaks to his people, he was with Moses when he made the Laws, example, Shema Yisrael based off of the Torah, Deuteronomy, such Laws, in addition, despite his presence being there, Moses cannot look at his face, for in Exodus 33:20, God even stated “You cannot see my face, for no one can see me and live.” and we know that no one can live if they see God for his GLORY is that great, a pair of sunglasses wouldn't help you even, you'd be a pile of ash before you can get a glance. We also know that in Exodus 33:11, we read, “Thus the Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend.”
God speaks many times throughout the Holy Testament and expresses himself, even emotionally when the people of the nation were doing detestable things such as "passing their young into the fire" a practice most Christians hold to today.
God has a place of dwelling, that is,in Heaven, upon his Throne. God has a personality, said personality with likes and dislikes, as said before, he has feelings, his reaction to those practicing detestable things cause him to act and or command his followers to act on his behalf, example, the whole situation with curses and sexual immorality practices of a specific group of people and a man who was the root of it all. As I said, God is Love, the scriptures tells us that he loves his people, and that he rejoices in his works, in addition, he hates idolatry, and feels hurt over wickedness, as said previously, look into Genesis 6:6; Deuteronomy 16:22; 1 Kings 10:9; Psalm 104:31.
Jesus himself speaks of his Father of having a place of dwelling, a person, who is in a specific location, as stated before, in Heaven, on his Throne, as well as Jesus, at times, stating that he is and or in the process of going back to his Father (John 14:2, 16:28). We also know that God dwells in places that honor him by means of religious worship, to no one else but him, and Jesus, as a child, was at his Father's temple multiple times, even on the 8th day of his infant life, Mary and Joseph took Jesus to the temple of God.
God has representative by means of Shalich Principle, an act of someone coming in the name of someone far superior to them, example bene elohims of elohim, Angels of Yahweh/Jehovah who come to speak/represent of who sent them. The very name of YHWH, be it Yahweh and or Jehovah means To Exist and or Cause to Exist.
So your little change up in this regard does not help you here, we know the bible describes God and even Jesus (as a man and when he was risen) as a person. We know the bible tells us spirit beings are persons, beings if you will that look like and or appear as men, we know that even Satan and his Demons are persons and or beings as well, but never, never ever we see in Scripture that the Holy Spirit is a Person.
Again with the Jay Smithing, it will not help you here.
You really have to read the bible a but more..... Gender forms in the Greek Language, as I said to you many many times, I suggest you learn your Greek, as well as your Hebrew for if a city or a Spirit is modified by means of Greek gender forms, i.e. neutered into masculine and or a feminine, it does not 100% make said thing a person and or being, this is the very reason I brought up Jerusalem and Israel, most of the time the speaker is indeed male and will often speak of the target subject of either masculine and or feminine, other times the neutered word is left by itself.
For the love of that is all holy and pure! You keep going back to John 16, why when it defeats anything and everything you try to twist it into? The only reason the Holy Spirit is called a HE/HIM is because of WHO is SPEAKING. 1 Corinthians 2:10 should be very obvious of who is speaking because we know that his passage is part of an Epistle, in today's English it called a Letter, who wrote the letter? Apostle Paul. We also find out that the Holy Spirit is of God, for it is NOT a God as you claim before, otherwise you'd have 2 God's right then and there. Moreover, we know what this verse implies because it points to several other verses, including John 14:26, totaling up to 9 verses that are rightfully connected to this passage, the only part of that verse you plunked out points directly to Romans 11:33. Romans 8:26 is regarding the helper, the replacement for Jesus and this verse strongly points to John chapter 14 and 16 combined.
You spoke boldly about cross-references, I suggest you start looking at them, before you speak of a verse, granted you are using the NWT 1984 hence your previous comments, the bible even holds your hand when it comes to cross-references to a verse, why ignore the luxury of such?
But you seem to not being getting the point from the very being. You bring this up and yet you ignore what is being said here.
And yet you call the Holy Spirit a God/Being (even though nowhere in scripture also that the Holy Spirit is called a God), with no proof of such in scripture whatsoever. We know of God being a person, we know of Jesus and the other Spirit Beings, Sons of the Most High, those who have fallen, become demons, who are also persons/spirit beings, incldues God's adversary.
This one Spirit, that is, The Holy Spirit is not a person at all, hence why I brought up the 2 camps, for there is only one group of people who believes the Holy Spirit is a Person, and goes against the inspired word itself. If the Holy Spirit was indeed a person and or being, it would be accepted by a majority of folks and it would be explained and expressed clearly in the scriptures, but this is not the case. We see nowhere in the scripture of the Holy Spirit being a person, for this doctrine is unheard of, Our early church fathers have a pass on this because not many of them knew a whole a lot until later on more discernment and the like came into play years upon years later and more passages have been recovered, O.K'd as Bible canon, etc.
So I'll stand on what I said before, and you've yet to prove that the Holy Spirit is a person and or being, instead you keep going around what is being asked and you keep going back to and using everything pointing to John 14 and 16, when it clearly does not help your case.
As I said before, it is things like this that puts a strong disinterest in the gospel, the inspired word of God and what his Son had to go through in today's society, for false things such as this, accursed teaches that bares no fruit, putting Christianity in a strong decline. It would not surprise me if the unity movement misleads more people because the truth is not being taught to everyone and the truth is so strong, it cannot be handled by some, even you, despite the fact that the very truth can and will set you free, but you refuse it.
That being said, at this point it has nothing to do with the Jehovah's Witnesses and or anyone else, this thread only shows someone is clearly blind by what they've been taught and do not accept what the bible teaches, you have to embrace the teachings and the gospel, not look at this as is, as most Christians do, example being John 1:1 when they fail to see the context and what is read in the Torah regarding the coming prophet, the Seed.
I'll say it again, you have no ground to stand on, and the only reason I am on a defense here is because of the dishonesty when it comes to the Holy Spirit itself, which does not still well with a Christian such as myself that have the very scriptures running in my blood, for what is said in scripture is what I speak of; coming out of my mouth for the gospel and the truth has to be heard.
I suggest you unlearn the lies, and really read the bible, research and study it because there is a lot of error in most of your responses.