Space Merchant

18 hours ago, TheWorldNewsOrg said:

via .ORG

World News

 

What can possibly go wrong? - the words of the people who heard of the news of these two individuals who will soon meet each other.

14 hours ago, Joanne Williams said:

Very much needed 

True, but the question is if they will hold these supplies back in PR from the people, for this was the case several months ago, as we speak, the people of PR are still indeed of help. Let's just hope the PR politicians do not try to hinder those in suffering.

10 hours ago, TheWorldNewsOrg said:

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World News

 

Russia and Israel are not friends with each other. Russia, on the other hand, backs Iran, who has recently sided with them, along with Syria, while Israel has the backing of the United States.

There are several superpowers that are on one side, a red team vs blue team scenario whereas the United States have several key players on their side, while the Russians have some key players too, vice viscera. China is a bit tricky since they made a new president for life law, giving power to the communist party, so they may lean towards Russia, since North Korea is cozying up to China a bit then we got the Saudi Arabians - who in turn are more close to the US and the UK, being on their team, so to speak.

As time progresses, things will only get more serious.

10 hours ago, TheWorldNewsOrg said:

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World News

 

Well you know what they say, the sister is putting in work.

8 hours ago, Colin Browne said:

As soon as we thought we've heard everything, along comes the latest news about Jesus.

Kenyan lawyer sues Israel.docx

Yeah that guy is really going to have a hard time there lol

16 minutes ago, Witness said:

Sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about.  And you obviously have no idea what I’m talking about. 

It was regarding your older threads whereas you posted a video in an attempt to make claims of the Bible Student Pastor. Here you stated I would have to be a JW to understand how they work whereas your source of regarding CTR and the JWs was clearly not an expert, nor a JW, yet you take his word and consider it as something true, but when I speak truth based on my research, suddenly it is insufficient compared to a conspiracy nut who copy videos and information from others. Other then that, when you literally dive into Theology and in Christianity, you really learn things about some known groups, who is teaching what is true and or close to what is true, who is far from the truth, etc.

19 minutes ago, Witness said:

My whole comment concerned disfellowshipping individuals who had not sinned.  (You do know the pedophile victims have been threatened with disfellowshipping if they went to the authorities, don’t you?  This is man-made doctrine and has actually been carried out)  Yet, Wt’s version of “sin” and the resulting shunning from it, makes no distinction.  One could be a thief, or take up smoking.  In any case they are treated the same; as spiritually “dead”. 

Why didn't you say that regarding pedophilia before? If that was the case, the other threads of which that this was address you could have posted there, this threat, whoever, is in total regard to excommunication practices in response to the OP.

I have read those comments yes, alleged and or have made claims of, I looked into it and I think I made mention to that somewhere if I am not mistaken, same claims regarding JWs also include them alleged underground grooming gang and abuse groups, once again, claims, another to where they stated a child was abused in a JW pre-school, as far as I know, Jehovah's Witnesses do not own and or have built in their name, pre-schools. Other then that, this is why I agree with pure facts, and nothing but the facts pertaining to the information, so in this case, I do know, and I do know the facts regarding such and what is true, what alleged and what are just claims, etc. this isn't the first time I am reading about abuse in churches, nor will it be the last.

What is agreeable is pedophilia is indeed a problem, but going on a warpath about dealing with the issue is only going to cause more harm than good, and I being someone who actually helps children,a s to many others, is mentally sane on how to deal with the issue and educate people, both adults and children, on the matter. As I said before, sin, it is a price we pay for our imperfection, and with sin comes desire of the flesh and ill intent to do bad, for free will is both a blessing and a curse. There is a reason why in Child Abuse and Neglect Prevention it is stated that be it a victim and or the parents of the victim, if one adult is not much of a help, tell another, and another, etc. A church tends to be fixated on giving advise and doing somewhat of an effort, but due to religious law they are bounded by, it is not easy for them to go to authorities, hence why they encourage the abused and the family of the abused to go to the police themselves, this is the same case with educational institutions, clubs, YMCA being a big one for a child, a victim, was able to contact authorities on his own, etc. others outside of the these groups will sometimes try to help and or suffer from bystander syndrome/effect, for some tend not to get too involve with anything child abuse, for if history has not shown us in the past couple of years, people end up being killed and or being the killer, thus becoming an avenger of blood - literally.

The people in today's society is aware of religious law and how the churches tend to react to child abuse, be it if they are educated on the problem or not. To condemn a religion for a problem they suffer from, is like those condemning the police for brutality and or the military for arming allies to leave Christians for dead and a list of other things. I myself can say upfront, the Unitarian faith in some of its denominations also has a few bad apples that have been dealt with, it will not stop me from following the faith, and in regards to our counterparts, it will not stop them from following the faith either, for anyone who did the crime is totally an enemy of which they feel sorry for due to the demon that has attached itself on to such abusers at birth, the psychological problem known as pedophilia. There actions are indeed vile for what they do to children, earning the trust of their family and community only to get closer and abuse them, at the same time, these people indeed have problems, and such problems only God can correct when he rids the world of wickedness.

Other then that by means of church discipline and religious law, a church is obligated to, on their part, commit to internal investigation of things, and they themselves would have to be obedient to the laws of the law, but should the laws of the land hinder the church rules and or regulations, civil disobedience, of which Apostle Paul was a fan of, will eventually come into play if man's law attempts to change and or overwrite God's law. Read up on Church Discipline and Religious Law so you see what as to why some religions/faiths are bounded by such.

As what was mention to John, I agree with the final reports of ARC and the educating of persons of child abuse, so one can save at least a child and or identifying the signs, for pedophilia main goal is earning trust, which is the root of abuse -  I was this close to posting PSA information to this regard to John however.

Also no, religious law is what tends to hold such religions back, this is very common in several religions, including JWs, but they do make an effort to put publications of child abuse in their articles, the question is, who is applying them and who isn't. The "because it will never happen to my child" mentality is intertwined with majority of folks around the world, and an example of that is on full display regarding the, a bit off-topic, Florida School Shooting an the whole gun control thing. This mentality has to be put to end like the stranger danger one, we have to educate our kids and the adults on such matter, including child abuse to increase prevention and on the parents part, they should always be around their children, for abusers are very watchful of that, one of the signs.

43 minutes ago, Witness said:

Yet, Wt’s version of “sin” and the resulting shunning from it, makes no distinction.  One could be a thief, or take up smoking.  In any case they are treated the same; as spiritually “dead”. 

There is no other version of sin, as you just stated. Sin is sin just as an orange is an orange, there is nothing different about it, for it is what it is. Excommunication begets shunning command thus the binding and loosening of the church regarding the ability of the church leader(s) to remove someone. For Jesus had put this in motion and Paul and the others had practiced it.

And I have made mention to Spiritual Death already, briefly.

I will say it again, Spiritual Death is indeed a real thing, one cannot think of it as something false.

It has a huge meaning and is connected to Sinning and Expelling, as well and it is more than just a separation from God by means of sin and or action of one who puts him/herself in said position.

Epistle of Ephesians - the Church, which is the Body of Christ

Ephesians 4:8

They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart.

Note: Ephesians 4:17–32 is a valuable, highly practical explanation of how to live out a Christian life. Paul notes the difference between a life wallowing under the power of sin, as opposed to a life thriving in the power of Christ. Christians are called on to ''put away'' the things which entangle unbelievers. This includes sins such as malice, slander, commotion, and bitterness. Instead, we should demonstrate a Christ-like attitude of love and forgiveness.

And yes, one can be a thief and take up smoking, and what does that get them? One has to abandon such practices and be part of Christ and be part of God. These things will often get you warning, but to some it is very close to getting expelled, however, any who is knowledge in helping someone to quit their errors so that he or she can return to the church, that counsel is open for those who accept and to those who are truly repentant, but should he or she chose to continue down that route, even ignoring counsel despite what they are doing is wrong an they know it, obviously the spirituality will not be there, thus being spiritual dead, and knowingly sinning in front of God and not heeding any counsel from a member of the church and or a reveal who is of the church, this is the route of which the person chooses, for God will know one has made the effort vs. one who does nothing at all regarding spiritual death.

For sin can cause one to be spiritually weaken and or dead, however, o be born and not being isolated from God, his Kingdom and his Spoken Word reverses Spiritual death, of which includes serious repentance, and building of faith if one sins and or is excommunicated, and or allowing him or herself to be alienated from God, of which the first parent Adam has done in the Garden of Eden.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

If you are aware of Watchtower teachings then you know of their history of failed doctrine.  If it has failed it is man-made doctrine.

Care to explain? But so called failed doctrines, assuming you are getting at the 1914 date, was addressed before and I remember saying of whom, both existing and non-existing groups who agreed on the Bible Students regarding things such as 1914, for the JWs believed that the year is of which Jesus reign as King and shortly after, Satan the Devil was cast out - the other groups agreed due to the events that took place by means of violence, war, outbreak and earthquakes that took place on that year and onward, things getting increasingly worse. It would have been a failed teaching if none of the craziness unfolded on that year, but things did happen - it would have been quite a surprised if it was a lucky guess though, because if it was, that was a really, really good guess on that year.

Other then that, I am aware and I adhere to factual information, not one-sided claims and conspiracy, and have made mention to such before, even posting chart of earthquakes that took place in that year, as well as the growing epidemic, I would have address the war, but someone had made mention to it at the time already, so I stuck to the other two known things, including the list of groups that also believed that year to be true to what happen.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

We are on a different wave-length.  My focus is on JWs in the Watchtower and how their spiritual life is in jeopardy.  That, I will continue to pursue.  

I do not see how their spiritual life is in danger, if anything, a JW hate parade will cause more harm than good, for there has been examples of this in the past, like last year, we have Warwick and NJ people defending JWs from JW opponents, effectively halting their advance in a park, even a gay man who spoke of changing his ways in his video, defended JWs, to which the JW opponents attacked him for it and saying he is better off dead, a disgruntled man who attacked JW opponents for making a video of his girlfriend who became a JW, to which the JW opponents attacked him for defending someone he loves. One girl in particular was very crazy, wishing death to JWs during the Russian ban situation, and one of the Russian commentors mention the UK bombing, to which the girl gloried it and said, and I quote : I WANT BLOODSHED ON EARTH (in all caps). Next we have opponents accusing and spreading lies that the JWs are going to have all 8 million+ members drink poison like the Jim Jones situation and they had people believe this among the JW opponent community, others being cool with a hate crime stabbing, and knowing the UK, most Hate crime stabbings are influenced by social media and or the internet which was addressed by Teresa May due to knifing attacks, and only one group in the UK tends to bad mouth JWs every chance they get, those who are against them. The list goes on, this group out of all faiths, they is more negativity towards JWs by opponents and conspiracy nuts on the web and it only pushes the claim of JWs being right to the point it is being joked about how they are right about holidays and the like. Lastly, whenever it is Passover and or memorial of which they celebrate the Christ, no Passover has ever had any interruptions and or disruptions but the JWs only, for those who do this, no matter what they have been excommunicated for, that is unacceptable, and an insult in the face of God for a day of such is greatly important.

But tell me, how is this helping a group who is bible strict and strict on worshiping God and following Jesus? How is "saving" JWs working out when you follow a crowd that wants to literally destroy them by any means necessary, even at times lying an making false claims, or in support of the Russia ban (those who accept the Russian ban not realizing Babylon's hand in it), and wouldn't mind taking down all of Christianity in order to do it, as the decline continues? It would be no surprise if they pulled a Wilkes, thus putting you and every Christian in temporary out of disdain for a sole group.

No matter how much you throw at the Watchtower, it will not hurt them, just like how no one can hurt Islam. What it is that is going to prove far devastating for you is the fact that whatever the JWs are pushing, others are adhering to it, you'd be surprised of how people view holidays now, death, hell torment doctrine (aka Molech worship), abortion, Jesus having a God and Father, etc. Other then that, they are among the Christian minorities who are still growing even while Christianity is on the decline.

But I do not think you can really do much, especially when you tried to say their Interlinear is incorrect, when you do not realize they were using an accurate manuscript thus making them right, or mixing verses that do not cross-reference with each other which proves your level of hermeneutics, thinking current and New Jerusalem is the same when they are not, or the bit about Yahweh being the Rock of Salvation and comparing it to the rock in the New Testament when the reality is Rock in the Old and New Testament do not relate to each other regarding refugee and or salvation regarding God the Father, believing their founding pastor was a Mason when there is no Registry information and or Lodge info present and even Masons, who were opponents of this man stated this man was not one of them, etc.

You yourself have to be bible strict and teach people accurately, for if you don't, the smallest of error you speak can and will mislead masses, and in regards to excommunication, mixing Current and New Jerusalem,  and or any outlandish interfaith teachings or erroneous teachings, can get you excommunicated in some churches if they know their stuff and can identify what you are spreading among their community.

That being said, and I said this before, there is a strong biblical reason as to why some real Christians do not mess with Jehovah's Witnesses, instead, we tend to be not only understanding of them, but remain neutral with them, in addition to still considering them as our brothers and sisters, for as some say, brothers of the neighboring tribe, thus we stay in our own lane and not try to them off in regards to bashing their theology. One example of a neutral Christian, a guy I am knowledgeable of named Brother Kel, is is clearly not a fan of organized religion, however, he speaks on what is true and even defends what the bible says based on the teachings, as well as being advanced in Textual Criticism and exposing the lies of Trinitarian Christians regarding the bible/Textus Receptus, JC.

For the people know the JWs, they know their teachings, and you have even the non-religious going out of their way to put together information and facts of what this group actually believes compared to those twisting their teachings i.e. claims:

opponents say JWs teach the world was going to end in 1914  and everyone who is not a JW will die, as they claim, but facts shows us that the JWs believe Jesus became King and Satan was thrown out in 1914 and that only the wicked will perish and or will be in front of the white throne of judgement while the righteous an the meek will inherit the earth (new creation by means of the first fruits), things of that nature.

The more that people speak on JWs, the more people will do the research, and they will find out what was true and what was not true, hence why non-JWs/non-Christians tend to be on the attack, especially if they themselves have family who are JWs. They also know about Child Abuse, and are aware of how to educate such persons, how to prevent it, how to see the signs, etc, for everyone knows child abuse has entered all institutions and is a problem, even to the JWs, for the world does not live in a box like the JW opponents do and us on the outside know there are smarter ways of dealing with such problems and we are crazy on trying to dismantle a group for its imperfections, for it we were like that, we would destroy the laws, the schools,etc, therefore, we are not monstrous in action or crazy for doing negative things for justice, we stick to positive action.

If you want to help and save people, you should be going for those who are literally twisting scripture, like those who twist the bible in order to promote sexual orientation, those who accept things and trying to normalize bad things, and or same-sex marriage, to name a few, for you are doing better justice there, only if you 100% adhere to scripture and being knowledgeable about it by means of interpretation and reasoning.

Other then that, I have been around the block, so clearly I am aware of many things, and you focusing on the JWs, good luck with that, for if you can't tell the difference in some things in scripture, Christology, and or manuscripts, it will not get you very far - for there are better things to do with time, for every second that passes you cannot get back.

As I said about people now seeing the viewpoint of a Non-Trinitarian faith, specifically JWs, did you see the recent news about the Pope? Despite having strong dislike for Pope Francis, for he was the cause of what Christians had been dealing with in the Middle East, I find his quite interesting, and this has sparked a lot of debate so far regarding hell fire.: http://www.pulse.ng/communities/religion/what-pope-francis-jehovahs-witnesses-muslims-say-about-hell-id8187144.html

But bear in mind, this man is still a threat, and will be the common threat for everyone on this forum and everyone who is not part of the OWR, Babylon the Great - The EII. As they say, the protest is not over.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

I suppose you feel you are the expert of every religion out there, but until you are a member; dedicated to each aspect of the Watchtower, attend all meetings year after year, preach weekly door to door,  you have no leg to stand on.

This is a weak claim, yet, it has never stopped you from accepting  outlandish Christian conspiracy regarding a Bible Student pastor from a person who was never among the faith to begin with and or has been those who are the opponents of the faith that has inform him/her of, of which you so boldly posted, yet somehow he is the expert when his assumptions and claims bear no fruit and or has merit to truth, for isn't that something, no? I do not think so.

I do not consider myself an expert, but I consider myself as mild Christian who has always been interested in Christian theology, Church History and our Church Fathers, the Bible and what the scriptures teach us, manuscripts, the Hebrew and Greek languages and respects to the language itself, the spreading of the gospel and the like.  Other than that, I am just knowledgeable, and I do not feed myself with conspiracy as most Christians in the mainstream do - hence I have a biblical stance of some, who at least are reasonable and not blind.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

I never said it was man-made, did I.  I said one does not have to sin to be disfellowshipped from the Watchtower. 

I am asking you how is their form of excommunication is man-made, for that was what the majority of my response was about previously and now, for you yourself claim previously that people reject the Watchtower's man-made doctrine to which I responded to and posted Revelations verse again, in addition to the old/new light comments from a book for which the JW church elders use, a book of instruction of some sort, regarding excommunication of said members of the JW faith, you linked quotes regarding excommunication and or disfellowship from the faith, for excommunication is of their teaching, their practices and is obvious molded into their doctrine of their faith. I did say that it is as if you are assuming a teaching and or practice is man-made, which also includes excommunication and or expelling, the very practice of it inside the church, also saying to make sure it isn't a biblical practice first before assuming such, pertaining to a portion of your WT quote.

So I ask, how is it their excommunication man-made? Or just to go along with what was said before, what is it in their doctrine that is false and or man-made of which you claim people reject it for?

Note, I already made a response as to why people reject the JW faith, for such is very close to and similar to other churches of which people are wanting to get kicked out of, it is the same common things that people will succumb to if they want out of a church and or faith -  again, that is why, sadly, some people make guides of how to get excommunicate from any church, which I find rather ridiculous.

I do insist though you read up on Albert Barnes regarding expelling members of the church, he was as clear as with what he had to say.

In the end, I guess following the bible to the core, for some, is false.

8 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Of course, the modern words such as excommunication, disfellowship do not appear in scripture, however, the phrase from apostle Paul’s letter to Timothy of, “turn away from such as these” have the SAME effect.

Bingo, this is a claim that dishonest and mainstream/new agers claim to ignore the practice of excommunication, therefore, they cherry pick scripture. Just because they do not see the word there, but the practice itself is there.

Excommunication/Expelling is biblical, and if they wish to not practice it, tough cookies for them, it is in the scriptures for that is where the practice, the ability given to the early Christian leaders, originates from.

 

Excommunication is Excommunication

Also I'd like to point out my response to Witness, this is the real enemy who is on the side of the Harlot of which will catch people who are not aware off guard, the opponents of Christians, this includes JW opponents, keep gunning for JWs when they could be targeting these people like the majority of us Christians who are vigilant and aware of what is taking place:

 

The things about Saudi Arabia and the like is a whole other can of worms on its own.

So all of us have to remain vigilant because these guys are on the move.

 

The big man of CNN in early 2000s:

 

2 hours ago, Witness said:

"Cutting off from the Christian congregation does not involve immediate death, so family ties continue. Thus, a man who is disfellowshipped or who disassociates himself may still live at home with his Christian wife and faithful children The situation is different if the disfellowshipped or disassociated one is a relative living outside the immediate family circle and home. It might be possible to have almost no contact at all with the relative. Even if there were some family matters requiring contact, this certainly would be kept to a minimum, in line with the divine principle: "Quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person [or guilty of another gross sin], . . . not even eating with such a man."-1 Corinthians 5:11. Understandably, this may be difficult because of emotions and family ties, such as grandparents' love for their grandchildren. Yet, this is a test of loyalty to God, as stated by the sister quoted on page 26." Watchtower 1988 Apr 15 p.27

To be cut-off from the church is indeed excommunication and family ties do indeed continue, however, religious and or church ties will be severed. Other than that, you just quoted how the JWs excommunicate members of their community, which is nothing different from others, especially in a Restorationist faith. Excommunication is considering a test of loyalty to God and in showing love to the member who has been excommunicated from the church. Despite not having church and or religious ties, their family ties include their family, and encouragement from their family to return to the church and at times counsel from church leaders, hence what was linked pervious which give word to the Restorationist theology regarding excommunication. However, dealing with and or being with someone who has been excommunicated will not only come as a shock, but an emotional thing for so and so has been kicked out of the church by means of excommunication either by sin and or some other act that is not prohibited inside of the church.

As for almost no contact, excommunication is followed by a shunning command, for at times contact with relatives, for such a thing is not easy for any Christian, especially when dealing with someone who has reached the point of apostasy in his or her view of God, thus making excommunication and or contact with such an individual very difficult vs. those who are excommunicated but does not hate God, his Son, his shepherds, the community of which the church resides in regarding professing worship to God and following scripture, etc.

Since you are clearly a fan of Barnes, this is what he himself had to say in this regard about Excommunication, check out what he had to say on this, which goes hand in hand with the practices of excommunication of the church (p. 208): https://books.google.com/books?id=ZKICAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA208&lpg=PA208&dq=barnes+Regard+him+as+obstinate,+self-willed,+and+guilty&source=bl&ots=2H8XdRZEpB&sig=xNuMLZCfBqgBZ1567tbsOL-Poz4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi3qIiuq6TaAhVs5oMKHUr9BmAQ6AEILDAC#v=onepage&q=self-willed&f=false

Other than that, expelling, excommunication, to shun, to cut off, etc. of incorrigible sinners is a clear and an explicit teaching in the Bible.

For Jesus Christ had established such as a requirement for the Christian church to follow, of which I have stated before. Anyone who believes otherwise simply does not really know the Bible nor Christ, let alone those who consider changing and or cherry picking scripture is the best course of action in an attempt to not follow a law or two that originates from the bible, in turn from God. Jesus himself had said in Matthew 18:17: “If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.”

Excommunication, is and was exercised by the early Christian church, and there was a reason as to why Apostle Paul had been very clear and explicit on the matter and that being said, excommunication has never been truly changed, unless you are a mainstream Christian who has changed it and or against the practice.

The next time you assume something is man-made, make sure it isn’t a practice in the bible first, then perhaps you would gain a chancing claim that would truly push your resolve, but sadly, this practice is biblical, especially regarding the Christian Church.

2 hours ago, Witness said:

"Jesus encouraged his followers to love their enemies, but God's Word also says to "hate what is bad." When a person persists in a way of badness after knowing what is right, when the bad becomes so ingrained that it is an inseparable part of his make-up, then in order to hate what is bad a Christian must hate the person with whom the badness is inseparably linked." Watchtower 1961 Jul 15 p.420       

I will just put this out here, if someone comes to know the will of God but refuses to do it, in turn, such a person is gaining, not God’s love, but his anger and or hatred, disfavor, if you will.

For if a man practices things that God clearly hates, it would spark his hatred towards those things of which he detest, and those who practice it, for the bible says in Psalms 11:5: The LORD [Yahweh/Jehovah] tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence.

We can also see the words of Apostle Paul, for he makes clear in his letter to the Hebrews as we read Hebrews 10:26, 27: (26) For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, (27) but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

A wise Christian man and or woman know very well that there is a time to love and when it is a time to hate, as we see in Ecclesiastes 3:8. Christians will indeed not sit at the table of wicked persons who are knowingly sinning and openly do such and or professing it, but such a person would pray for them, even though they are like this, some will consider the person who clearly does not want to know who God is and are knowingly sinning, for in the eyes of God this so called person may become a potential enemy, especially those who attempt to preach to change God's law and or what his Son had professed when he walked the earth, in addition to those whom he had placed to have such ability over the church of which the Christ is the head of.

Ironically, some Christians will attempt to preach to such persons, but if the person does not listen and or does not give a care of who God is and or insults God, dust off your feet and go to the next person. Regarding JWs, so far they have the spotlight on them when it comes to preaching the gospel to the good and the bad, especially of which the environment they are in, for as I said before, anyone Christian who takes the Great Commission seriously will adhere to it, be it if the gospel teachings is directed to a good person, or a bad person.

Romans 12:9: Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. (see Psalm 97:10).

2 hours ago, Witness said:

What did I say?  I said, ”Do you even know that the organization teaches all churches - ALL - aside from the organization are part of Babylon the Great?  That includes your beliefs and whatever church you go to.”

rs p. 49-p. 53

"Modern-day religions have perpetuated many of ancient Babylon’s doctrines. Hence, the world empire of false religion is well named Babylon the Great. (Revelation 17:5) That international religious conglomerate has already suffered a fall similar to that of ancient Babylon in 539 B.C.E. (Revelation 14:8; 18:2) In 1919 the remnant of Christ’s brothers came out of spiritual captivity and shook off the religious influence of Christendom, a dominant part of Babylon the Great. Since then Christendom has lost considerable influence in many lands where it was formerly strong."  Ip-2 chapter 8 pp 105-119

The Watchtower is taught as the one, true, religion.  There is no other.  It is taught that all those outside of the Watchtower are not protected by God’s spirit.  They don’t consider other religions as part of the “Body of Christ”, as you do.   This is why a person who rejects the organization is considered an apostate.  If I was to reject the Watchtower and join your church, I would be considered an apostate and disfellowshipped, because I am rejecting "Jehovah's organization".   

If you knew what I know, you wouldn’t think as such of Jehovah’s Witnesses, for they are not part of Babylon the Great – far from it, and I am surprised no one had a clue of “how and why” the JWs got banned in Egypt and Russia, let alone what is happening to them there. There are key figures who are obviously part of Babylon the Great, one can say Pope Francis, for he had somewhat of an involvement of the JW ban, a brief moment of encouragement he gave to the RoC leader of the Russian Church, of which even the Russians saw this but where silenced by the FSB.

That being said, the United States have their own faction of people, political and religious, while Russia has their own, Iran joining them for they are not a fan of the US, all of them having their religious parities ready to tango with the other faction. Then you have a group that was formed in Israel in the mid and or late 1990s I believe that is working to united all religious faiths together to form a one world religion and cleaning house on those who are not complying.

For it is evident by many that something will indeed happen and there will be an attack on the Christian faith and the freedom of the people. For we already the issue with the UN dealing with the first amendment of which people are against, and now the second amendment, including the fourth. On the other side of the spectrum, you are having a decline in mainstream Christianity worldwide, even in Asia, whereas not only it is decreasing there, but groups have gone underground in order to resume their practice of their faith.

Babylon the Great is strong and troubling indeed, but it and just recently something went down somewhere regarding the followers of the harlot – Saudi Arabia and China.

But, there will be a time whereas you, me, the JWs, every other faith in this world will be put to the test, for what is taking place outside of the US regarding Christianity is just a shadow of what is to come and what will take place regarding religion.

That being said, seeing from their theology, they believe that: Babylon the Great, mentioned in the book of Revelation, is the world’s collective body of false religions, which God rejects - Revelation 14:8; 17:5; 18:21. For they see that these religions differ in many respects, in one way or another they all mislead people away from the worship of the true God. - Deuteronomy 4:35. Examples would be teaching that Jesus is Jehovah, or that God is 3 persons (Trinity Doctrine of the Godhead), Immortality of the Soul, Hellfire Torment (for majority of Christians ignore God's shock and emotional reaction to fire torment in the Old Testament), the teaching of scripture and not applying God’s law and or principles, thus moving away of God by means of teachings and or worship, disrespecting Jesus Christ by not taking into account that he is the Head of the Church, and a list of other things. The Jehovah’s Witnesses of course have their reasons for saying such. In continuation of their theology, they believe a world empire can be political, commercial, or religious (There is one no currently) – seeing with that all the Religious Movements is going these days and the Reformation, who is to say they are wrong in this regard, especially with what went down in October 2017, Kairos 2017 and onward, as well as everything that took place after it.

In continuation,  and a quote on their end: The religious identity of Babylon the Great is further confirmed by the statement that she misleads all the nations by means of her “spiritistic practices.” (Revelation 18:23) Since all forms of spiritism are religious and demon-inspired, it is not surprising that the Bible calls Babylon the Great “a dwelling place of demons.” (Revelation 18:2; Deuteronomy 18:10-12) This empire is also described as being actively opposed to true religion, persecuting “prophets” and “holy ones.” (Revelation 18:24) In fact, Babylon the Great has such deep hatred for true religion that she violently persecutes and even murders “the witnesses of Jesus.” (Revelation 17:6) Hence, this woman named Babylon the Great clearly represents the world empire of false religion, which includes all religions that stand in opposition to Jehovah God.

Note: One of these so called groups is the Elijah Interfaith Institute that originated out of Israel, and has gotten the attention of the government and political powers, even some famous people in the US and around the world, one man, Ted Turner of CNN, who paid out big bucks for a on world religion back in the early 2000s.

That being said, the JWs, as to others, have made claim that religion is dying out back in 2015, which is true, for Christianity is decreasing, as mentioned, and in the EU, specifically the UK also, it is going down fast, with Islam surpassing it, and Islam itself has embraced government and political powers in the world, well at least several denominations of Islam.

In the end, JWs have a fight coming their way against the attacks that Babylon will soon throw by means of her power over government, politics and religion, if her power can influence those to ban JWs in a country, who is to say she will affect you also? This is an common enemy, you, me and everyone else here, JW or not will have to face, with some people will end up losing their faith in this fight, for such has already happen to a majority of Middle Eastern Christians, it can happen to you too for the slightly error in combat can result in death, in this regard, a spiritual death.

As for what was said before it was in regards to the Great Commission and its practices done by religious organizations, namely any who came out of the Second and Third Awakening, if I recall I had link sources to that a while back.

Back to the response at hand, 

Every religion teaches they are the one true religion and that there is no other, especially if the religion holds true to monotheistic beliefs. Islam also claims to be the one true religion, as well as others, therefore, the Jehovah’s Witnesses making this claim really isn’t such a big deal, for if the church teaches what is true in their eyes and that it is supported by scripture, they can say this claim. However, what makes a religion true is if they take into account both the Hebrew and Greek Testament of scripture, and they apply 100% of it and do not do anything to break any of the laws of which God had set in motion, nor break scripture, in addition to applying bible examples in their lifestyle and their actions by means of the gospel and a list of other things. As far as I know, based on JW theology, they are more concerned about absolute Truth and sticking to it, hence their teachings and practices, and their evident display of the marks of the church within their community, which is something all Restorationist are known for and have done for decades now – being united in their faith as one church, one in Christ, being one in God, and living stones to one spiritual house.

Making silly claims I see, I stated this time and time again, I do not consider, New Age Christianity, mainstream Christianity, Spiritualists, Trinitarians, The MK, MJs, Satanist, Christain opposition, Gnostics, Dishonest Christians, Anti-Christians, Anti-Religious conspiracy theorist, etc as the body of Christ, for I said it before, and I have said it again, for last I recall I corrected you regarding the body of Christ in a discussion about the church and the stones, so before you make those claims again understand my views of which I had mention clearly before, and where I stand on such views, biblically, as I mentioned before  unless you are wanting to use a typo against me vs my many responses, then by all means you can if that floats your boat.

And no, that is not why they reject it - JWs regarding the body of Christ. The people (opponents, former members, etc) who do not like the practices of Jehovah’s Witnesses consider them to be boring, out of touch (Old Skool), strict, to bible heavy, Bible fanatics, crazy, claiming they are a cult, they make claims the NWT is in error, when the reality is the NWT is literally following the Strong's and the Septuagint, a 4th century manuscript which the NIV, YLT, and the ESV are also following and several other bibles, and or wasting their time, giving themselves a reason to just leave the religion, hence why Atheists, on the other hand, have been making guides and advising people how to get excommunicated from any church, indulging guides on how to leave JWs, some of which can be found via Google, in addition to making outlandish claims against religion and bible bashing (this does not sit well with me and many others). They make claims and assumptions about how wrong they are about Jesus and or about God and so forth, I have spoken to JW opponents, one who was a former JW believes he can heal people with his hands by the grace of God has he claims, only to be shut down by a Muslim who knows the bible, another, who just recently made horrendous claims about the Passover and being Born Again with their own foolish claims of Nicodemus' conversation with the Christ that was shameful to read it through.

JWs clearly know what the body of Christ is, as do most Non-Trinitarians and what it implies regarding the church, as I mention to you before, The Great Commission, of which is part of the Body of Christ for he was the one who gave the command to do such. Another example is being a united people, being one in Christ and of God, just how Jesus’ disciples were one with the Christ and God, as well as the early Christians who were One in Christ and of God. For if they do not adhere to being in the Body of Christ, why is it these people go out of their way to preach the gospel of the scriptures day and night vs. mainstream Christians who stay at home and party every Saturday and become sudden saints on a Sunday? The answer of who is in Christ and who isn't is quite obvious and clearly it isn't a mainstream Christian who is in the right, in reality, this person is in the wrong, sinning knowingly in the face of the Father - quite the disrespect.

Other than that, your assumption of them not being part of the Body of Christ falls short, it would be true if these people didn’t really do what Jesus has taught, if they didn’t follow God’s laws and resort to changing them, if they didn’t follow scripture and or aware if they are part of the New Covenant. But since they do all these things that the bible teaches, they are indeed one and of the Body of Christ, thus being the stones of his temple, which is his body, as do their brothers and sisters who follow the bible 100% and not fool around like other dishonest Christians of the world.

That being said, any Christian and or Christian group who adheres to such things are identity as a True Christian and or True Religion if they do practice the monotheistic beliefs to its core, in addition to that, those that hear from them and how they interpret scripture will come to this conclusion also.

As for excommunication, that is how it works, anything pertaining to interfaith, anything regarding sin, is grounds for excommunication. It is understandable for the view of expelling has not changed with them, nor has it for any church, or temple for that matter compared to those who do not take it seriously.

In my case, if you came to my church and speak of anything interfaith, you would be escorted out the door and told the reason why and the final thing they will tell you is that you have been excommunicated and advise you to repent before coming back to the fold, and they will close the door on you, if you change and or convert to another faith, you can get either excommunicated and or just marked that you are part of another church, some Unitarians tend to be more strict than others on the matter, but excommunication can easily be raised, regardless of the church and or denomination, luckily you aren’t a Jew, for He’rem is far worse than any form of Christian excommunication.

2 hours ago, Witness said:

Under disfellowshipping acts:   Deliberately spreading teachings contrary to Bible truth as taught by Jehovah’s Witnesses: “Shepherd the Flock of God”

This is most definitely regarding man contrived doctrine.  All “old light” and “new light” is man-made doctrine.   

Sir.  Unless you have been a JW for a period of time, you don’t understand what the Watchtower truly teaches or practices.  You also don’t understand that within it, are true, authentic anointed ones, and the only place you will find them.   This is something that most all JWs will tell you.  

You do realize what gets people excommunicated in a church, right? This includes the JWs, again, their very root stems from the Restorationist Movement and the teaching of excommunication has barely changed (inclduing the ability to expel a member), in this regard, from the days they were Bible Students, into the days they name changed to JWs. Excommunication at times may not go by means of someone sinning, but it can be done by actions inside a church and or the church community – be it physical and or verbal. In this case, spreading a teaching that is not of this church, interfaith teachings and spreading of interfaith doctrine, will enable the one spreading such to be excommunicated, in this regard, anything pertaining to interfaith actions, this also applies to those who insult God inside a temple and or the teachings of which a faith practices, inside the very temple and or church it is taught in, for these things are categorized in the Apostasy department of things. Physical should be obvious, enticing and or enabling a fight inside the church will also get you excommunicated.

Therefore, going in or being part of a church, specifically the JW church, sin can get you excommunicated, spread of interfaith teachings and or teachings not of the church, can get you excommunicated, starting and or enticing physical action inside the church can get you excommunicate, or something that has been done before, attempting to debate with church leaders inside the JW church that Jesus is God and or Jesus is Jehovah/Yahweh, as well as saying I have found Christ and promptly ignoring the Father, will at times get you excommunicated, especially if you are pushing the envelope. That being said, doing this kind of thing inside a Non-Trinitarian church will get you kicked out swiftly, regardless of the denomination, a plus if the church has security guards, you will not last more than 4 minutes inside the church you choose do take such action in, all in all for sin, you can get expelled, and usually it is address to the church community and or by means of a letter, the worse case scenario, this only happens in a mainstream Christian church, is being not excommunicated, but shot by an angry pastor, for this was done before, a game of chance and risk in a so called church of God.

Therefore, if a Christian, who is part of the church, sins and or does any of those actions, it is not okay, for such influences and encourages others to live however they so please, which will be a problem and pose as a challenge for a church community of members, for the actions of one can defile the many, if such a person is not removed regarding disruption and or tainting the teachings of which is taught in the church.

3 hours ago, Witness said:

Sir.  Unless you have been a JW for a period of time, you don’t understand what the Watchtower truly teaches or practices.  You also don’t understand that within it, are true, authentic anointed ones, and the only place you will find them.   This is something that most all JWs will tell you.  

I have done my research on the group already and I do know them very well in terms of teaching and practices for they fall under the category of Christian Primitivism as do their Non-Trinitarian counterparts that are similar to them. For those who study biblical hermeticals, it is taught that in order to speak with someone of another faith on their level, you have to understand of where they are coming from and why it is their faith is so, hence speaking in dialogue with reasoning and not the blind faith nonsense some Christians, the majority around the world, are doing.

It does not matter if you were a JW and or a current – for the learning of one’s  faith theology to some is important for better understanding of so and so and where they are coming from, in addition to that, discernment comes in to play also to see if so and so is true and or false, an example would be to understand the position of the Gnostic and their belief, for everyone know what they teach is incorrect, hence you go on their level to speak what is true, without tending to insult and faith bashing.

As for the anointed, other churches claim they have chosen ones also, some state that the chosen ones are only the black members of the tribes of Israel, the question is, who among the chosen one is doing God's work and following scripture, and who was indeed God's by God and not assuming he himself was chosen. Other then that, I am well aware of who the JWs are, as I am aware of who my Rock of Salvation is.

So the question still stands, how is their excommunication man-made?

20 minutes ago, Witness said:

I am not speaking of any church.  I am speaking about the Watchtower organization that disfellowships one for rejecting man-made doctrine, rejecting it as salvation, and for one’s testimony to Christ.  Rev 12:11

Excommunication and or expelling applies to all churches, even the Jehovah's Witness churches, no matter how you knock it, it applies to all, even in Islam and Judaism. Dis fellowship in the JW church is nothing different than a Takfir or a Herem.

You do not have proof nor had shown any and or lack that the excommunication in the JW church is man-made, if you do by all means post it here if you think what you are saying is truth, as you claim, because I can easily point out what Jesus said regarding the church of which all churches follow regardless of their denomination, for this is not our first discussion of the church if I last recall.

Using Revelations 12:11 is irrelevant to your claim of a false form of excommunication, if which you are lacking information on. In addition, that verse alone connects and is compared to Acts 1:8, 2 Timothy 1:8, Revelations 1:9 and a dozen more verses of which do not connect at all in the realm of excommunication.

20 minutes ago, Witness said:

You may know a lot about the organization but you don’t know enough to realize this is fact, because you haven’t been a JW.  As John Butler said, you don’t realize the fear factor those in power put upon the sheep.  You don’t realize that transgressing’s man’s doctrine marks them as spiritually “dead”. 

I know a lot because I have studied several faiths, for I have mention this time and time again to you and others before. I am knowledgeable in the Jehovah's Witnesses, as well as Islam, Judaism, and the like (about a decade of knowledge hence why I am not blind as you or eat from the hands that spew conspiracy), and the reason it is important to be knowledge because it is correct to understand where so and so is coming from, especially if you are teaching to gospel to the person and or coming to common ground with so and so, this also includes knowing fully the Bible and Scripture because as I last recall you last made claims about an Interlinear bible, but remain oblivious to where the interlinear bible's source originates from - hence whereas I expressed my knowledge with pure facts and information, alongside textual criticism and bible strong's.

You can't use John's comment to help you here, I had made 2 responses to that comment and fact, you can go and see it for yourself for I will not waste time repposting it again because unlike some here, I am aware of things and my research on the matter gave me the conclusion regarding the Theology of other faiths.

Can you provide give ample proof to this comment you made? : You don’t realize that transgressing’s man’s doctrine marks them as spiritually “dead”. 

Spiritual Death is indeed a real thing, one cannot think of it as something false.

Because there is a clear source that can cause this claim of yours to fall back on you.

20 minutes ago, Witness said:

It is not a sin to reject lies.

Christ is our only judge.   

You claim lies but yet you do not give detailed proof of such. Christ gave the ability to excommunicate and or the removing of someone from the church by means of his foundation, how far will you go to refute what the bible says?

20 minutes ago, Witness said:

You are the one incorrect.  Jesus is not responsible for putting into motion, false doctrine.  Do you even know that the organization teaches all churches - ALL - aside from the organization are part of Babylon the Great?  That includes your beliefs and whatever church you go to.

On the contrary, you just shot yourself in the foot, Witness, but it wouldn't faze me for how you responded before regarding those who adhere to the Great Commission, and now you claim the church is part of Babylon, for such a claim you do realize the gravity of information and source that is against you, do you not?

Yet I await to see how your proof regarding excommunication.

As for the other stuff, there is evidences and information that proof even your assumptions and claims as false vs. those who actually know this stuff.

That includes my beliefs and the church I go to? Care to explain my believes because my beliefs in the scripture corrected you before as well as my knowledge in manuscripts used for scripture, and I will not waste my time bringing up those corrections again and or link said corrections. As for my so called church, I am there to help out and discuss on scripture, the bible we are encourages to learn and by means of bible study we take in information, in addition to studying Greek and Hebrew, after the Passover we are dealing with examples we can learn from the women of the bible.

Friend, next time you make claims and or willing to test someone, make sure there is a floor of where you stand for one cannot speak his or her resolve if he cannot stand upright - especially when it comes to speaking about what is true. That being said, the people tend to listen to those who know the scriptures well. Also do your research on Matthew 16:19 because the next comment you make on excommunication will only reap a biblical response you cannot cash.

15 hours ago, Witness said:

One does not have to sin to be disfellowshipped/”excommunicated” from the Watchtower.  One only needs to proclaim Christ as the only Way, Truth, and Life -  and not an organization -  and they can easily be disfellowshipped for rejecting false doctrine.  John 16:2,3; Matt 5:10,11; Luke 21:12,13; Rev 13:1,11,14-17

And you are incorrect. It is known for since the church foundation was made that excommunication can be from sin, and or from a verbal and or physical action, example, going into a church to speak of another doctrine and or insult God and or Jesus, you will promptly be kicked out. This goes for spread of interfaith doctrine inside a church.

Again you use verses that do not support your claim, for Jesus was the very man who enabled the Apostles to excommunicate, hence why the one who is one in Christ, Paul being an example, has the ability to excommunicate.

It does not matter if you are a Jehovah's Witness, a Muslim, a Jew, Baptist, Unitarian, Catholic, etc - Excommunication and or expelling is an ability that is mentioned by Jesus regarding the church and it gives the pastor, deacon, bishop, elder, etc the action to do such.

Without it, then it is obvious that the church has stopped what Jesus placed within the church, the stones get dirty, and the teachings of the church will break.

So yes, it is easy to get excommunicated, you cannot fight a teaching Jesus put in motion, which originated from his Father - I suggest you read the links carefully next time before you make such outlandish claims when the bible says otherwise.

Quote: Jesus is solemnly entrusting the Church with the power to bind and loosen, and this is closely tied with the Church’s ability to excommunicate unrepentant sinners. And it’s more than just an ability. Jesus actually instructs it as the appropriate course of action to be taken in the case of certain unrepentant sinners. They are be ostracized, in the way that the Jews of the time treated Gentiles and tax collectors.

15 hours ago, Witness said:

There is nothing they need to “repent” to the elder body for, except to God for believing an organization is one’s fortress when only God can be our Rock, for choosing lies over the one source of Truth, Jesus Christ; and for taking so long to cast aside idolatry.  Isa chapter 31

Actually there is. One not only has to prove repentance to God, but the church itself and or the congregation, for there has been examples we see in the bible, for instance Manasseh, for not only he had to repent to God he had to undo what he did and earn the people's trust, for if the sin is grave, for the action of excommunication of which can be verbal and or physical, of either that get you kicked out to begin with.

Repentance must be serious and true and not false for some people take advantage of repentance, and the reason why it has to be shown to the church is because one can confess their sins and continue to do the same thing over and over again, thus keeping you out of the church.

So if a member of the church has sin and is excommunicated, he or she must prove repentance to God by heartfelt prayer. He or she must return to the church and explain themselves that they are ready to get back into the fold and by means of confession and showing they have repented, they are back in the church of where they were kicked out from to begin with.

Lastly, it amazes me you got God as the Rock correct this time, for the last we spoke on this you were mixing the meaning of what the Rock of Salvation actually is, which is God the Father.

Anyways, you can't accuse a Restorationist Organization for lies for it they were lying in regards to excommunication, you automatically just claim Jesus to be a lair for when he spoke of.

Do your research, here is a verse you can begin with:

Matthew 16:19 -  I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

By means of scriptural facts, those who were given specific keys, whether literal or figurative, and or symbolic, were entrusted with a degree of authority - 1 Chronicles 9:26, 27; Isaiah 22:20-22. The term, key, came to symbolize authority and responsibility. Peter used these keys bestowed unto him to open up for Jews, Acts 2:22-41, the Samaritans Acts 8:14-17, and the Gentiles Acts 10:34-38 (For all of these groups are One in Christ, One Church, and make up the Living Stones), the opportunity to receive the Holy Spirit from God with their view of entering the heavenly Kingdom.

Evidently, to bind, to loosen, to lock and or unlock is referring to decisions forbidding or allowing certain actions and or developments of said actions (see Matthew 18:18). Whatever decision Peter made - whatever you may bind; whatever you may loosen would be made after the corresponding decision was made in heaven; it would not precede it.

For such an ability, as said before, is used by the church,specifically the church leaders of binding and or loosening for Jesus has entrusted them to do so in order to maintain the church from sin as well as what we see today regarding verbal and or physical action taken within the church - rendering the subject account and placed within the category of expelling - excommunication.

As Christians we must not deny Jesus words and of whom he words originate from - remember that. For only the foolish, the New Agers, and the Mainstreamers will deny the teaching and or practice of excommunication and do no justice for the foundation that is Jesus' church, thus ruining the living stones by ignoring scriptural based facts on this issue.

Once again, read up on excommunication, then come back with better claims and verses that back up said claims.

Other then that, I am interested to see the so called lies you claim they are proclaiming regarding excommunication, let alone claiming a Restorationist group is lying on expelling members in a church if they have to.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So which of these am i then ? But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 

Obviously not one of them. But in your other post as to how you stated your situation with the Jehovah's Witness church you went to falls in the verbal category whereas one can be excommunicated for spreading a doctrine that is not of the faith.

An example would be is this: A man can go into a church and be a member of it, a convert for about a decade, but his views change based upon what he ahs read on the Old Testament, thus wanting to know why God did what he did and paint God as villian, and should this man speak of this matter to the pastor and or church staff, even if giving the right information he refuses, thus he is excommunicated.

In your case with the JWs, you mentioned before about how you are somewhat removed from the church, and it is a known fact that for the JWs (Restorationist) is that if one speaks against the faith and the teachings, again, verbally, be it aggressive and or passive, there is grounds for excommunication. Examples would be, people will automatically assume John 1:1 (introduction to God) proves Jesus is God, or in this case, Jehovah. Being totally convinced, they will start to spread such inside the church and when they profess their so called newfound faith based on misconception of the verse, they will be excommunicated. The same thing applies for assuming if one person decides to interpret the bible for themselves and think it is correct over what the church teaches, again, grounds of excommunication, and such applies to what you had mentioned in a post you made a while back to which I offered you advise when you clearly showed you didn't know what to do or what to say, and I did everything in my power and understanding to provide advise - it is the same thread to where Witness attempted to use a typo against me, to which is utterly failed due to my comments being against the King James.

That being said, you'd be surprise of how those who believe in the Trinity Doctrine, as well as Gnosticism, Oneness, and Modalism will attempt to use a single verse over and over against to attempt to attack Non-Triniarian, specifically JWs, as well as those influenced by such doctrine to try to shift the teachings of JWs from the inside.

Mainstream Christians do not practice and or believe excommunication is necessary, thus saying it causes fear among members, there influence spreads to those who practice it, thus making the notion of members being fearful because they play into the hands of mainstreamers and New Age Christians. 

In the end, following the bible strictly and trying to cherry pick and or change a rule and or law of those who are hard pressed in scripture will indeed get you excommunicated. Just remember that those who have pure strictness of scripture will effectively excommunicate you should you think what they are doing is not biblical, even worse for one if they speak against the faith, thus becoming an apostate.

But it is ridiculous for some JW opponents though, for I had seen one speaking about placing his hands on someone's forehead to heal people, another who assumes Nicodemus was at the Passover/memorial and will go out of their way to say JWs are false, others will say that anyone who isn't a JW will be destroyed, when the information from the JWs themselves and what the bible says disproves this false claim or something like that, teachings like this does not sit well with the JWs and such falsehood can easily be spread to the inside and the ban hammer of excommunication will follow suit.

From my experience though, we had a man who was claiming that Jesus was for homosexuality, the man was not just excommunicated, for he was obviously influenced by today's society, he was rushed out by church staffers by command of the church leader, again, things of that nature, even verbally, aggressive and or passive, can put one in a position of excommunication - expelling.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Now, I'm not even pretending to be a brother. And as far as i know I'm not committing these direct sins.  Of course i commit sin as everyone does, and I ask God's forgiveness through Jesus christ. So why are the JW's not allowed to talk to me ?

Spreading interfaith teachings and or doctrine is grounds of excommunication. In fact, Anti-Christians have already spread their influence by teaching How to Get Excommunicated from a Church, and they have some verbal ques of which majority of religious will have a specific reaction, it is no different with JWs, for any interfaith talk in an attempt to shift what the JWs teach is asking for excommunication, there are also clearly ways to accept Jesus and use such to be excommunicated on the stop, like accepting Jesus and denying of the foundation Jesus left behind, for JWs take the foundation of Jesus seriously, hence The Great Commission and the church that Hades cannot bring down, Matthew 16:18.

JWs are not allowed to speak to you because excommunication and or expelling prompts the Shunning Command, which is seen in the verse I provided above. Members are not suppose to speak with the one who has been excommunicated, however, it does not stop the one kicked out from attending the JW church. JWs however, are still allowed to offer counsel, should the excommunicated be a child, the child cannot interact with anyone else, and sits with his or her family, if the excommunicated is disabled and or stick, they are still cared for by the family.

Excommunication and shunning is indeed biblical, however, religious ties may be broken, but blood ties still remain, the family in question will counsel the one who is repentant, however, one who is unrepentant, attacking the faith and or otherwise, leads one to apostasy, and a point of no return, thus putting you further to the point of thinking and or assuming things and being victim of influence that is negative.

That being said, what you displayed in your situation was spreading interfaith inside the church, thus you being dealt with. Clearly you still love God and his Son, however, you show a total disdain for what JWs teach, hence all your other comments and not realizing what, why and how scriptural teachings apply to JWs and if you were among them long enough, you would know about the religious and blood ties comment.

If you look at someone as an enemy, they will not be a friend to you, even if you use to be among them.

Other then that, read up on excommunication of how and why Christians apply it, as well as the shun command that follows from it. For it is was in the bible, there is no reason to ignore it, as I said to someone before, if the people who hate JWs the most acknowledged that shunning is biblical, but will brush over their comments by speaking of something unrelated to the subject that is excommunication.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And like I've said to others YOU ALL THINK THAT ALL THE VICTIMS EARTHWIDE ARE TELLING LIES. How misled you all are

5th time, as a guy myself who actually helps children, some abused and even scarred for life, you clearly ignore every word I said. And no, never have I said victims are lying, for a good friend of mind took it to her grave I suggest you not making checks you cannot cash.

You are accuse people of being mislead, yet you ignore truth and facts, all of us know child abuse is a problem, there is no question about that, at the same time, we are smart enough to know, the world is smart enough to know how to deal with the problem. Regarding JWs, we can use ARC as an example because in your early comments, you made a remark about ARC,but when the final report facts are placed before you, you remain unconvinced and in denial. You claim the people of the world do not care about statistics in child abuse, when Child Abuse and Neglect Prevention says otherwise, for people care for these things, just as they care about the statistics of crime, violence, murder and the like in the area they live in for it is important to them, just as child abuse is.

You remain unconvinced that child abuse has infiltrated not only  the schools, the but churches as well, this influences the JW churches, and it is said that religious institutions are plagued by and not very well equipped to deal with child abuse and or prevent an abuser from taking action, thus educating themselves and the people on the matter by means of sermons and publications - for saving at least a child from abuse is a plus because the reality is not all children can be saved and it is very difficult to prevent such cases.

I also mentioned race before, for a majority of child abuse takes place not only in the household, regardless of the person's faith, but the the abuse is normally done by a Caucasian males, be it in the US or the UK, and speaking about the UK, the very people who are investigating the JWs of child abuse are being checked out themselves for sending out children aboard who end up suffering.

That being said, it is agreeable child abuse is everywhere, as for the JWs, it is mostly the US, the UK and AU, some parts of EU, however it is very very low in places like the Congo, Asia, even Russia, and several others and the JWs are but a small percentage of the big picture - something you seem to not see for that response was address more than 5 times yet you bring this up again.

Next time you assume someone is mislead, make sure their facts and information is false because the way I see it, you tend not to read into what is said half the time, which is evident, even some of the information I posted from Child Abuse and Neglect Prevention itself - who do not mislead the masses with their information.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Do you honestly think that a few apostates have gone around the Earth, Australia, Canada, USA, Netherlands and UK, and made all the stories up concerning Sexual Child Abuse ? Do you really believe that ?  

No, but an Apostate who said that 3 of her children were abused in a JW preschool seems to be a lie, for JWs do not build preschools. UK media claims that JWs have an underground sex ring for child grooming, to which some apostates push this information out, which was indeed a lie. JW opponents writing "Watchtower knows" all over the place and claiming the JWs did it, is a lie and they know it too. JW opponents will attack JWs because they are affected by child abuse, but ignore child abuse taking place elsewhere and or in other churches, which was evident in the ex-bible student's video of which the JW opponents, one of them you posted their gofundme, managed to report and take down on YouTube, for should that 1 hour video still exist, it will shattered half of your claims of a man who is not a fan of bible students, not a fan of JWs, but a man who knows right from wrong and understands how better ways can solve a problem, for he was the very man who stopped the group from accessing a nearby park.

And last I check, nowhere was it ever mention by me that someone is making up a story, but at the same time, when there is information out there, what can be said of you is you tend to at times being in denial of facts.

I would not throw Australia into the mix either since your previous claims on the ARC final reports and words of the victims themselves.

I know what I believe and as someone myself who does help and educate children on child abuse, I am not a pawn to those who are on a warpath to destroy and beget aggressive behavior. I take the word of a Warwick citizen though, who said what JW opponents are doing is borderline extremist in their actions, which they have provide themselves to be.

And yes, there several bible verses on such a manner too.

Other then that, as I said, I am smart enough to know better solutions, some of which I provided her in the past, and will not subject myself to the position you are in right now, but eventually you will come to your senses though.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Well that's your choice. I would rather have empathy for the victims and also be concerned about future victims, whilst the Pedophiles are kept hidden in the JW Org... 

Oh I do have empathy for those I have taught have become leaders themselves in dealing with violence and abuse problems and helping those affected by it and it was not by choice as you claim nor was it ever from the beginning, hence my responses to your claims.

If you are truly concerned about the victims, know that you should be doing them justice in the right way, not in the manner you are going about. And of course, pedophiles cannot be stopped at all, only God can put an end to that. The JWs, and everyone else has to put up with pedophilia until the end times conclude, only then pedophilia would be wiped off the face of the earth - that is what I am counting on to see and you who are God fearing, you be like this also, but sadly, you consume every word of JW opponents and what those who are against Christianity is saying - the very reason why your country is suffering a decline in Christianity, so is Asia, so is the US.

In the end, you cannot judge an group for the actions of a bad person, especially if that person is a pedophile, for child abuse prevention even states pedophiles will work their way up and earn trust to get to their target. I advise you to read up on the numerous information on child abuse prevention before you bring up claims as you did previously and as of what you had said now, in addition, you should also check out the very people who are investigating the JWs in UK, for they're connections are not to shy either as they hide behind Teresa May.

Regarding Excommunication though, I leave you with this quote:

Quote

Jesus is solemnly entrusting the Church with the power to bind and loosen, and this is closely tied with the Church’s ability to excommunicate unrepentant sinners. And it’s more than just an ability. Jesus actually instructs it as the appropriate course of action to be taken in the case of certain unrepentant sinners. They are be ostracized, in the way that the Jews of the time treated Gentiles and tax collectors.

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

We will just have to agree to differ on things. 

Spiritual warfare may have been used by the Jews and the early Christians, but they used it to 'help' God's plans progress. It was inline with God's thinking and therefore approved by God Himself.

That is totally different to the JW Governing Body and Elders using this so called spiritual warfare to hide Pedophiles / Child Abusers within the JW Organisation. And using scriptures to form an excuse  for disfellowshipping and for shunning is not in line with God's purposes.... 

But you are not agreeing with none of the examples provided. Spiritual Warfare is Spiritual Warfare, and it is known to every man, every woman, every Christian who really reads their bible and take is seriously, that anyone who has emerged out of the Restorationist Movement, 100%, applies Spiritual Warfare as it were in the bible, therefore, Jehovah's Witnesses and other groups like them who are Restorationist apply Spiritual Warfare, you have yet to provide anything that makes them do things differently, when they did the same as the Rehab when it comes to protecting God's people and or servants, protecting their faith and belief in God, preventing any man made laws from overwriting God's law - something of which I address more than 4 times every time you say something that contradicts to what is true, especially to the publication you posted to which Spiritual Warfare was justified because the individual was protecting her faith and the ability to worship God. And everyone knows Spiritual Warfare begets Civil Disobedience, please look this up so you see what I have been saying time and time again in the previous post.

And no, the JWs are not using Spiritual Warfare to defend and or hide pedophiles. For starters, again, Restorationist Christians are bounded by religious law, they are to obey the laws of the land, but never, ever will they allow the law of the land attempt to change God's law because that right there would put them in a very bad position with God as well as Jesus, for both the Father and the Son spoke strongly on the Laws that have not been abolish, from the Old Covenant all the way to the New Covenant.

But as said before, if anyone does the research over the one sided arguments of JW opponents, they will see that they are not really hiding pedophiles as the opponents make claim of, thus allowing an attack on Christians around the globe for their resolve opens doors for witch hunts and a death march on the bible, even burning it if they have to. Other then that, there are sources that disproves the hiding claim, for it is mostly about the exchange of documents and nothing more.

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

To withhold information for a wrongful purpose is as bad as deliberately telling lies. 

Yes i know the disciples disobeyed the law and went on preaching, so what, that has no relevance here.  Yes it was wonderful that they did carry on the preaching work and sad how much they suffered for it, but it was for God's purpose. 

Religious law and Secular law, this was addressed before. Actually it does, if you look up religious law, religious exemptions and the category of which internal church investigations are done in regards to documents, evidence and the like - church discipline. As it has been addressed.

As for pedophilia, it is a common disgusting thing and the action of one person who commits abuse, thus being a pedophile, hurts others around them despite not being the victim themselves.

But like I said, in the end, it will not stop people from converting to the JW faith, nor will it stop others from joining another faith, nor will it stop parents sending their children to schools and or clubs.

Other then that, the thing that does concern me is JWs are too nice of a people, and that allows for a a convert, who just happens to be a pedophile to take advantage of them so easily.

Child neglect and abuse prevention teaches that those who eek to abuse a child will take advantage of the group in question and or the chosen victims families in order to gain access to a child, and will prey on those who normally do not fight back and or not educated and or experience to handle and or diffuse such a situation.

As we speak, there are churches right now teaching their staff about how to identify child abuse and or what to do if it happens/aftermath of it. One of the things addressed, like any all PSA for child abuse is to tell another adult and or if possible, inform another adult yourself, be it someone of authority and or advise the victims parents to do something.

For an example, a victim, a child, contact authorities for it was said the abuser prevented the child from calling his parents for this was the case 3 months ago. The reason this was possible because the parents were well in the right to teach the child. Another example would be a situation taking place in a church, the church staff advise the victim and their parents to go seek the police, for even though they did not have very little evidence, they have the word of the victim.

But it would seem I am among the few who holds confidence that God will put an end to what man cannot contain themselves, especially when it comes to the errors of the flesh.

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The Governing Body have deliberately made rules to use people and to frighten people. Please get it in your head, people are scared of the GB and the Elders. Scared of being disfellowshipped for even saying a wrong word. Scared of being shunned, completely isolated from the whole Organisation. That's why i was so careful not to say anything that they would consider wrong, before I left the Org. They would have much prefered to disfellowship me rather than have me just 'walk away' as I did.  But however, the brothers and sisters are still too frightened to talk to me, even though I've committed no serious sin before God.  

But when I asked for the rules and gave a response before as to why such rules exist.

And no, people are not scared of their own church leaders - for this is what only comes from the side of JW opponents, for they push this notion time and time again, even when other former JWs disproved them, they were shut down  and or had their responses erased (especially when the jw opponents had somehow flagged all videos by former witnesses to hide that information from others).

Disfellowship if I am not mistaken is a practice of expelling a person from the church, it is a practice that is done and has been done by all religious groups known to man, to Jews it is called Herem and to Muslims it is called Takfir. For anyone subjected to excommunication is also subjected to a shunning command, for this is indeed biblical and not a made up rule and being excommunicated is indeed a shock for the churchgoers and the person in question, including their family.

Fact: In religious and ecclesiastical contexts, shunning is a form of church discipline... This form of excommunicated derives from 1 Corinthians 5:11.

I would not say they get excommunicated for saying the wrong word because if history of Christianity already taught us, there are several things, even verbally, that can get someone excommunicated, the JWs are no different. For if someone goes to a church and curses God aloud, using scripture to bash the faith, twisting a teaching, etc verbally, it would get you kicked out of a church, even if you said something in a come way. In addition to that, interfaith teaching will get one excommunicated, which seems to be your case with the JWs.

An excommunication can take place by other means too, but doing something verbally can get you kicked out too, there was a quote from someone, a guy who was learning about all church denominations, if I find it I will post it here sometime.

Other then that, there is a far worse form of excommunication that is out there that makes the others look like paper in the wind.

So that being said, it is unlikely that they made this up themselves when Paul and John made it clear, as well as God himself, who wants to maintain a purity and holiness in the faith regarding removing people from the midst of the people who have done wrong, examples being Aaron's sons, Nadab and Abihu and or the individuals mentioned in scripture of whom Paul himself had expelled from the congregation.

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

But you will never understand it seems. Because you always include others,  the JWs and other hardcore Christians 

This is purely about the JW Org and it's Governing Body. I have no interest in any other religion or their ways. 

Anyway i have things to do, so cannot continue on here. We must just continue to have different opinions. 

 

Actually I do understand and know enough to stand where I am and not be easily tickled by any religious opponents of a faith, even against atheist who tend to wise up to use scripture against you.

Yes I do include others, but majority of what I say is directed to the Watchtower itself, for it was evident to nearly 99% of my comments towards you, which is both fact and true. But if you want that 1% to be different, then I am welcome to keep it that way. Other then that, you may want to re-read my comment of where you pulled my quote from, for  it is true that JWs do Spiritual Warfare/Civil Disobedience for you previous claim was using a Watchtower story to attempt to disprove what is actually true. You stated you wanted JWs to change their rules, but disregard God's Law and the fact that JWs will indeed be prompted to do Civil Disobedience, even when it comes to the laws of the land - for unlike others, they do not want to break any of God's law.

That being said, with whatever you are doing stay safe because there is some things taking place regarding Christianity that can prove troubling for some.

Also note: Hardcore Christians are the ones that study and follow the bible 100% to its core, technically they are JWs themselves for such persons are Restorationist , ironically, some have gone off grid - literally, which I find quite interesting, for I posted a video from one of them who spoke against Christmas in one of my responses to Swaili. 

Also it is Child Abuse month. For if out re as committed to the cause as I am, contribute to it, for I did so before the Passover, hence my absence for about 4-6 days.

12 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

Dude you are so obsessed with picking apart my arguments, you are mixing up what I am saying and quotes from the watchtower. It's clear to me you are pretending to be a Unitarian, most of which are atheist or deist. You are a jw who is pretending. I've seen your type quite a few times in the past 27 years. Please don't bother replying to my post any more. Not much quite as irritating as fake people.

I am not picking an argument, I am responding to claims and what has been said and nothing more, also that quote is not from the Watchtower as you just now made claim to, for this preposterous claim of such makes you incorrect, the quote was pulled directly from a Christian website, it was a response to expelling (excommunication, shunning, herem, etc things of that nature) and the answer to this question is from the ones who manages the website, to which an answer had been provided in full detail, for further proof it can be found here if you are still in disbelief because last I checked, this link does not go to a Watchtower website: https://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-shunning.html

I am not pretending to be a Unitarian for I have been one since the age of 6, from my life in Belize into the US, so assuming and judging, there is a verse for that and no, there are several denominations of Unitarians, some of which tend to not agree with each other, examples like a Biblical Unitarian vs a Universalist Unitarian, so to speak, for those that believe in a pre-existing Jesus while others believe Jesus only came into existence by means of a Jewish woman named Mary and only came to exist due to that by means of the Holy Spirit, etc. for even among the Unitarian faith there are other denominations and I know exactly which one I have been brought up in, therefore, proves you do not have a clue of the Unitarian denominations or lack understanding and or information of, which is clearly evident by your response.

As for JWs it is the basis of Theology to learn and understand of where they are coming from and in regards to excommunication, surely a person such as yourself with 27 years of experience as you claim understand what excommunication is, and from my prospective, you tend to brush over such things even with prove from non-JW sources and your claim of my quote, which provides you are a mainstreamer, accepting words of a faith opponent, denial of what is from scripture and thing it can be avoided, buying in to conspiracy and or someone else opinion and facts that tend to be false and or misleading, etc. this includes a few of your other comments.

Other than that Unitarians are not too far apart from Restorationist Non-Trinitarians, despite us having different Unitarian denominations, but you seem to fit all of us into one pile being ignorant that there are several denomination of Unitarian, and a child can look this up from a mere wiki page from a 2 minute research, giving  enough time to see a brief summary of each one.

But if you want to play fire with fire on this notion, would it be wrong for me to accept all mainstream Christians are at fault for handing over Christians to ISIS to be killed and raped by means of those they support - US backed allies? Reviving black slavery in Libya for the actions of supported allies of which conservatives and mainstream Christians support? Or how about the Israel Decision, of which just recently the allies of which Christians defensed gunned down Palestinians who are not a threat? Not so fun being compared to those Christians who are in support of such things now is it? I know you do not support those things like the other mainstreamers do and the conservatives, but if you want to play fit everyone into one pile and blame them, it can be done with you also quite easily. Majority of mainstreamers are either mislead and or wrong, some who are knowingly dishonest and will fight and or debate with you on what they think is right, and if it is not seen already, with what I mention already mainstreamers are divided on what took place in the Middle East anyways, fighting among themselves.

I had already address my Unitarian position before and I will address it again if need be, and I have reasons, as do many true Christians, not to incite religious infighting and or conspiracy against a faith who is not teaching falsehood, and there is a biblical reason as to why this is - but I am sure you read the bible to know this, unless you ignore such also just as you are ignoring excommunication, which shows you are a mainstream Christian, for they are against excommunication just like the New Agers, so clubing out (or having wild parties) on a Saturday with immoral persons and being a saint on a Sunday sits well with such persons in that category and these same people have the audacity to confute excommunication of those who take the bible with strong seriousness.

I welcome you to try and convince everyone here I am a JW, better yet, prove it if I am pertaining, as your alleged friend have tried before and failed with unshakable facts, God is my witness to your claim and my many comments on this forums says is enough to cash a check you yourself cannot cash. Other then that, for everything I ever said on this forums is solidified by truth, facts and information from a conclusion by means of research, i.e. Church Fathers, manuscripts, Textual Criticism, and most importantly, the bible scriptures, for last I recall I made comment to you was in regards to a verse in Matthew, which your friend could not prove my information is false, as well as the off-topic forum necro-posting, which a majority here seems to ignore, but that's that.

27 years? Can you provide proof I am this type? Because it is very very rare for a Unitarian to know Biblical Hermeneutics, Textual Criticism (since most Unitarians denominations are unaware, against or not knowledge of such) the oldest and most reliable source of which the scriptures came from, and which kind of bible use which manuscripts, for most other Unitarian denominations will not even give an answer to, let alone the question about women in the bible, of which I made mentioned of time and time again in another thread. But I am open to see what proof you have of this, nor am I fake either because whatever I post is true, and nothing but truth.

That being said, I gave you some information to look at, next time, before you claim something is from the Watchtower, I suggest you look it up - you can start with that link of which that direct quote is pulled from, for making claims without backing it up only backfires on the one who makes a claim with no foundation.

Other then that the question still stands, how are they lying if what is done comes from the bible - mind you, even a JW opponent admit in comment, and I quote "Shunning and Excommunication is Biblical".

I really do not care as to what response I get, even from you, be it positive okay, negative, so be it, just know I response to claims, falsehood and cherry pickers, and nothing more, and will do what is needed to defend the scripture itself - for it is not a matter of denomination in this regard, it is a matter of not breaking the scriptures (John 10:35) and not changing it (Deuteronomy 4:2).

Other then that, I am well aware of several faiths, in Christianity, including the JWs, I know about Islam, and I know about Judaism, all of which having denominations among them. As a child of God and a follower of Christ in order to teach what is true you have to be mild and be on the level of that person in order to teach them about the bible (teach them all of it and not cherry picking scriptures).

On 3/29/2018 at 5:56 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

@AllenSmith Puff, hot air.

May Jehovah God forgive you all for your misuse of scripture and your hiding behind the laws of dishonest governments. 

You do no justice to Jehovah and you show no love or mercy to those who need it. You should all be  Pharisees ...... 

 

If he is misusing scripture, you have to prove this claim. There isn't anything being misused by @AllenSmith and there is enough prove and commentary to further push who is in the right and who is in the wrong, with the bible being the game changer to bolster said commentary of the verses you considered to be misused - it will not look pretty if such information is posted in detail as what took place before. For if we are to play on fair ground, last we discussed you were leaning towards saying how the JWs are at fault for Spiritual Warfare/Civil Disobedience when the scriptures says otherwise and even showed God fearing men and women who are subjected to the same thing the JWs and other hardcore Christians practice to this day. You were also leaning towards changing what is written of which Christians, specifically Restorationist, follow to the core - literally.  For what is written is what rules and policy are based off of, especially Romans 13 as well as the verses I posted that cross reference to that chapter of preventing even the laws of the land from altering God's Word or stop you from worshiping God, hence Civil Disobedience.

Doing Justice for Yahweh/Jehovah also means not breaking scripture to fit your view of the bible vs. what is written in the bible for you to already follow and adhere to.

Perhaps because excommunication (expelling) is indeed a real and biblical thing and since it is in scripture, it is to be followed because if we accept what is written in the bible, we accept the practice of excommunication.

• http://shamelesspopery.com/biblical-excommunication/
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excommunication
• http://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2015/12/shunning-unrepentant-or-contentious-sinners-biblical.html
• https://www.gotquestions.org/excommunication.html

On 4/1/2018 at 10:24 AM, Matthew9969 said:

The governing body states that they are not to shun family members. We don't know the detail in this relationship, but keep in mind Jesus even forgave those who put Him to death.

Jesus also stated the scriptures cannot be broken nor does any get off Scott free for breaking God's law, let alone change it to fit doctrine, something of which Paul adheres to a great deal, hence the links posted above. In addition to that, Jesus didn't come to abolish the law either.

On 4/1/2018 at 10:24 AM, Matthew9969 said:

My daughter decided she doesn't want anything to do with Christ, does that mean I am going to shun her, never help her, no because my love for her isn't conditional, Jesus love is not conditional. Of course I won't bend to her worldly views and will continue to talk to her about truth. But won't be unloving jerk like this father is.

It usually depends on the person. You'd be surprised about those who are excommunicated who work on acceptance, thus allowing some form of communication to take place and visits from a pastor and or church leader. I posted here before excommunication of JWs, to which a girl had been excommunicated 2-3 times, but out of repentance and strive to do what is right, she rejoined her faith and even go her husband and children to be part of the faith, it varies because culture-wise, JWs differ from each other despite being united in a single faith. However it is not as troubling as the Herem, not only you are cut off from family and the community, despite attempting to repent, you are literally exiled from the community also, totally off the premises, and if you are a child, that is another story. But as for JWs, the information and or video you posted, there has been those who have been excommunicated who came out to defend JWs either way and those who do not speak negatively of God and or Jesus are not totally shun, but have access to those who can help them to repentant, including their families, and sources do back this up.

This video was posted by a Muslim, yes, a Muslim, who apparently defended JWs in the Dawah community for he had linked this to Trinitarians who were lying about Jehovah's Witnesses, Jews, Muslims and the deal with Muslims in the UK, clearly the Muslim commentor won that discussion:

Other links/sources:

• https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/shunning/
• https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102008083
• https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20130815/disfellowshipped-child-seating-location/

On 4/1/2018 at 10:12 AM, Matthew9969 said:

Only a jehovahs witness would presume it's the grandmother who is refusing to have anything to do with her grandchild.

 

Not really, but clearly someone has not been around the block a few times. You should try meeting with JWs and or talk to those who are bounded by their culture and cultural practices sometime.

On 3/29/2018 at 8:55 AM, Matthew9969 said:

"What of a man who is disfellowshipped but whose wife and children are still JehovahÂ’s Witnesses? The religious ties he had with his family change, but blood ties remain. The marriage relationship and normal family affections and dealings continue."

Which is a obvious contradiction to this video:

If you did the research, the answer is there. But if you truly feel this way, then you the group of Christians who want to change and alter everything Paul has taught in scripture, but Christians who are true do not buy into that nonsense to belittle those who lived in those bible days, especially override of what was taught in this regard.

Quote: Scripturally, excluding a person from the church is preceded by admonition and counsel; it is only employed in cases of bona fide heresy, obdurate divisiveness, or blatant, unrepentant sin; and it is a last resort. After excommunication, the relationship between the former member and the church naturally changes, and the “shunning command”—not to eat with such a person—may come into play. However, the church still has the responsibility to pray for the one being disciplined and to extend forgiveness when repentance is evident. Shunning, as defined as a refusal to speak to someone or a total severing of all ties, goes beyond what the Bible advocates.

So the question is, what is it they are lying about? For if everyone is aware of the teachings of Apostle Paul and how he went about dealing with and excommunicating people within the church, let alone what even John had said in 2 John 1: 9 and 10 or even God himself who is the one wanting to keep purity and holiness among the people of the church, then what is the problem?

It is no wonder mainstream Christianity is pushing the notion that Christians should not literally follow what Paul had taught, cherry picking his verses, that Christians should not adhere to what John had said, and totally brush over what God had said himself and what his people did to keep the temple clean and pure, as if we had not learn from the days of Aaron and Samuel, etc.

Other then that, excommunication is indeed a big thing, but looking at it from a biblical perspective, one would realize why it was done and that is was necessary, in the end the one who is striving to repent can be counseled to for the one who seeks repented is not one to bring apostasy in God's name compared to those who actually do.

 

Misc.

For us Unitarians, excommunication is a practice also, other Unitarian denominations tend to having to deal with sinners who are in the wrong and have used expelling/excommunication to deal with such persons.

And yes, the shun command is indeed a real thing and it is biblical, but counseling to the sinner is allowed, for anyone who practices excommunication is allowed to counsel said person, especially if the person is a pastor and or church leader of the church of which so and so has been removed from. Not removing said person, regardless of who they are, only further justifies what God's holiness and purity is not being respected by Christians - something mainstream Christians are too stubborn to understand.

In the end, no one in their right mind would override God's law, change and or replace it with something they think is right vs. the scripture.

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The handful of people on this forum have come to live and breathe pedophile facts and counter-facts, but most of our people know almost nothing about it. They will say "Look, I am not a pervert. I don't know any perverts. I don't like perverts. I don't want to know about perverts. I think perverts are disgusting. And yet now I am called upon to be a pervert expert." It is all a huge diversion from the heart of the truth. Give them a quick retort so that they are not caught as a deer between the headlights. They can bring themselves up to speed if they see fit, as can their detractors. JohnB was dumbfounded that this issue was not on the top of everyone's aware list. I explained that it was because they have thousands of atrocities to choose from. A quick answer is enough to move everyone along.

Agreed. The thing is some people who just suddenly come across child abuse assumes that the whole world does not know what it is, especially to those who do not educate children and adults on how to see the signs of abuse and how to prevent something from taking place, and instead, they take their action out on a whole group instead of the individual. 3-4 months ago, a man molested over 50 children since he was the age of 10 into his adulthood years of 18, he confessed to the police himself (the institution he worked as was not to blame for they didn't contact the police outsiders, children's parents, did), while another abuser, age 23 abused a child, only for the child, the victim to contact the police himself because the man who abused him prevented him from contacting his parents, but the victim manage to get a whole of the police, mind you, the justice system is broken and this abuse didn't go to jail, he was left off easy because the judge felt sorry for a man who sexual abused a child. Ironically when it is someone of another race and or specific religious background, they will literally throw the book at the person and criticize the group of the same faith.

That being said, even with facts and truth, sadly it will not push someone to accept it and instead they want to see the world around a group turn into ashes for those who want this to happen are the people setting the fire. But it is what it is, and seeing I, and others do handle children who suffer from these kind of things to some expect, we tend not to be oblivious to the truth as most who are uneducated about child abuse are.

It is hat it is, but in the end,we hold and know to what is true and the facts and the information that stems from the truth and nothing but the truth an the reality that is abuse.

6 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

The reason Superman's cape is so different from Jesus' cape is that when Jesus ascends, its fairly slowly, but when Superman takes off at hyper-sonic speeds, if he did not have the cape he has, the wind blast would rip his red "tighties" off.

( But he does have a nice shave !  In the old Superman comics he had to cut his beard growth in a mirror with his X-RAY vision.

When he looked his best, about a 150 people in the neighborhood behind Clark Kent's Apartment, at 344 Clinton Street, in Metropolis,  would get acute cancer.)

Well the shaving part for Kal-El has been joked about before it was in live action and the animated series

 

Other then that it takes a green rock to keep him at bay, for Mr. Wayne is known to have done so many times and has beaten the boy scout, and others also others do causing Kal to have a bit of help.

 

Also I prefer Nightwing, the original boy wonder (Robin) over Superman and Batman combined for he is the better crime fighter..

10 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I'm sorry but I cannot answer you. Your thoughts, or at least your words are miles away from my way of thinking. We have nothing in common here. You do tend to generalise and talk about other religions and about politics which are of no interest to me. 

I do not expect an answer because it was addressed multiple times already on the other thread, especially in regards to Spiritual Warfare and Civil Disobedience, how it applied to servants of God, to the days of Jesus and his followers, to present day, for no Christian will not allow God's law to change and or be override, doing such begets breaking God's Word no matter how crazy and or difficult things get, it cannot be broken for God's Word and what he put in place is a Nazareth Vow.

Other then that, anything I say is fact, true and or backed by verses, it is rarely my own thoughts, especially in regards to the experience. I can careless about politics (many reasons especially things regarding Entho-groups and double standards), however, they too are enablers of child abuse and at times the cause of it spilling into religion, as well as other problems that today's society in the US, the UK, Asia, and other EU countries suffer from, an example would be the death of Seth Rich and his co-workers, expect for one who was forced into hiding because she will end up deceased like her friends and ruled out as suicide - for politics begets corruption and such corruption and influence spread to individuals, in turn, spill into other institutions, mainly those who are not trusting of government and politics combined. Therefore, I do not trust politics and those who back, support them, for their causes begets an effect that can cause problems, the same could be said about government, I do not trust them either, especially with how they have been targeting religion, specially Christianity, for the past several years now, and have succeeded thus the decline in the US, the UK and other EU countries, this also includes Asia, in addition to how they are oppressing and kill the people with aid of the United Nations and affiliated supports who inject ideas and plans that honor them, examples being after the Las Vegas Shooting, government officials were silently killing off any known survivors to prevent the truth from being spoken, as well as going as far as to use influence and power overseas to get people killed and or assassinated, making it appear like an accident, Serena Shim being one person who was killed by US and UK government officials in Turkey, whereas to this day, her family, as well as Seth and the others, are seeking answers to find the truth with no fish on the hook to such information. Therefore, things such as these, I do not trust mainstream media or follow the blind ones that do, hence my past comments about the US and Russia.

I talk about all religions, even the false ones that are obvious, for how I was brought up is to understand of where so and so is coming from and by their faith, the rules and lifestyle they follow, creeds, tenets, vows, as well as any cultural based things involved in such religions and or faiths, pretty much the basics in Theology and Christology, if you will, as well as some things of Judaism and Islam - for in order to speak of the gospel, you have to go on the level and understanding of the individual who wishes to convert and or want to know who God really is, who is Son is and what the Kingdom is about and what it will bring.

10 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I have few concerns as I'm not interested in what the outside world is doing. 

Tell me this and this is the important issue... Does Jehovah God judge His people by the standards of the 'world' ? OR. Does Jehovah God judge His people by God's own standards ?  Answer this truthfully.

Child Abuse is a concern, and always will be, despite us not having the power to get rid of it 100%, just like how we cannot purge ourselves of imperfection, desire of the flesh, treacherous hearts that lead to bad decisions, and all that is sin, for we inherit such from Adam and by the time we leave the womb to the time we are laid to rest, we are sinners.

I believe I answered such before. God's law includes his rules and standards, for if his Shepherds provide this information and not doing what they are using as a guide thus makes you against God's law. For I mention this already regarding Civil Disobedience and Spiritual Warfare, should you do the opposite of what a Christian must do, even in the face of trial and error before you due to man's law, you end up breaking God's law, and we already know what Jesus' view is of those who break God's law.

It is tough, yes, but it is what it is until God allows his Son to return to the earth and fulfilling what needs to be done.

Until then, we apply what is found int he scriptures and we should not be cherry picking, changing the word, or accepting some things and not accepting other things, especially since we are under the New Covenant - so any man on earth who wants to change God's law, as mainstream Christians do already, they will have to answer to God the Father and whatever action he takes by means of his Son - one has to know God is Just and he has not changed, and what he will do to the individual will be final, especially in regards to breaking his law and standards of which rules Christians follow derive from.

10 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

My concerns are :-

The risk of further child Abuse within the JW Org.

The risk of assault by angry people, on the brothers and sisters in the ministry and in the Kingdom Halls due to the information now available about the Child Abuse Earthwide within the Org.

Compensation to victims of the Child Abuse that has already happened. And compensation comes in many forms, not just money.

Agree, child abuse is always a concern, but as I said before, there are smarter ways to deal with such things via education and the like, which I have already offered some examples in the other thread in this regard. We know that Christians of all kinds, Jehovah's Witnesses also, are trying to do their best in attempting to prevent child abuse, but as I said before, you save one child, elsewhere, it will not be the same, but education is key to helping prevent more individuals from coming in to tickle the ears of believers just so they can get to the children, at the same time, since most child abuse cases take place in the household itself, the family have to be aware of the signs and should seek help from every adult possible, for religious leaders are bounded by common law and religious law and at times will advise you, especially if the Bystander Effect is in play, which is the case with majority of the population in the world.

Unlikely, the world know who the Jehovah's Witnesses are and they know how Child Abuse has spilled over to religion. Such people educate themselves and others on the subject of Child Abuse, which makes them different from you because they are willing to educate others if they have the opportunity. The Jehovah's Witnesses are aware of this too, hence why they have articles based on this subject, at the same time, child abuse cases will not ever stop someone from being a convert, for what a convert cares about is bible truth from the scriptures and knowing that child abuse is a thing, with what they learn and their faith, they too will want child abuse to be gone from the world when Jesus returns, just like every other Christian, since I mention this multiple times to you already, as for Earth-wide, again, some areas have little to no child abuse, often times, regardless of a Christian faith, it tends to be the other way around, in religious institutions it tends to be far less than what is taking place in other institutions, as well as a abuse taking place in a household, in addition, if the abuse is a female and or another child, regardless of the child's sex, the consequences for actions differ greatly from a male abuser, be it the UK, the US, etc.

Agreed, compensation comes in many forms, but apparently people just tend to go for the money and nothing else, for such is quite evident. other times, the victim and or the victim's parent end up as Avengers of Blood, a worse case scenario where abuse is redeemed by the blood of the abuser, hence why some religions and institutions tend to advise so they do not get caught up in something as this, especially schools with the whole gun violence thing taking place.

Again, better ways of dealing with child abuse, better ways of educating a group of people, a family, etc. For if we can teach a child about puberty, about stranger danger, to drive a care, the do's and don'ts about dating, how to be a better listener/learner, teach about the internet, etc. we can also teach a child about child abuse, mind you with such education on this matter, a child is better suited to identify the signs of abuse and or help the abused with what they are taught.

For me, I do help child, especially those who had some form of abuse, and with what I had taught them from what I learned a long time ago, with that type of education, not only they will be better at doing such than most older people, but they can become mentors themselves and make a student a mentor and so forth.

That being said, yes child abuse is a concern, and I know there are better ways with dealing with such, and as the rest of the world also knows, you go for the individuals involved, not the group, which makes the difference in dealing with such differently from those going about child abuse the wrong way - burning the bible, spitting in the faces of Christians and throwing out their books is not a way to fight child abuse, and such action makes those who fight child abuse look like monster- for we are not such.

10 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The possibility that the Governing Body are the wicked slave class that say 'The master is delaying in coming' and therefore the GB do 'their own thing' and do not obey God through Jesus Christ. In other words they are not the 'faithful and discreet slave'  that they say they are. So it could well be that Jehovah's Witnesses at this time are being misled, just as the Jews were being misled by the religious leaders when Jesus started his 'ministry'. 

But what is mentioned in the bible contradicts this claim, mainly the Spiritual Warfare one. If a group of Christians are not breaking any of law, rule, standard that comes the Bible, they are not deemed evil, again, Jehovah's Witnesses are Restorationist that emerged out of The Second Great Awakening, and any known Restorationist be it a religion in Christendom and or independents with core Christian roots, follow the bible cover to cover, book to book and strictly apply what is written to the point that it makes even Muslims blush. 

Rarely can you find independents expect for Christians who literally have gone off grid and or isolate themselves away from mainstream Christianity, however, organized religions that take the Great Commission command of Jesus Christ seen in Matthew 16:18, take the bible very seriously to the point the world thinks of such persons as crazy when in reality, such persons walk their talk.

Unfortunately for you, the JWs and their religious leaders are not evil and they are not doing their own thing for what they do comes from the bible, especially the laws and standards of which they follow and will adhere to civil disobedience if need be as genuine Christians tend to do.

That being said, if majority of Christians sees this, even us Unitarians, we do not consider JWs as false, nor do we compete with them or against them, we are neutral towards them and consider them as brothers and sisters of another tribe, if you will, like the Jews to the Samaritans of Mount Gerizim.

Lastly, attempting to break anything biblical for them, one has to say, who is really breaking or attempting to break God's law and standards of which his rules are based off of? The answer to that is very obvious and clearly anyone knowing what is right will side with God's law and not how man wants to view God's law - there is no middle group.

Also, the JWs would be deemed a threat if they did exactly the same of what mainstream Christians have been doing for decades now, but, the JWs, as do any real Christian, are against how the mainstream and the New Agers view God, for such groups who often call out minorities as false and or crazy, tend to be in the wrong.

In the end, Shepherds are not deemed as evil and or mislead if they literally follow the bible, this includes the JWs and the religious leaders of the faith, for unlike others, they are the face of non-trinitarianism and are known for a united faith in God, hence why they tend to be the front-line in things and taking a majority of attack from the religious and non-religious and are obviously infiltrated by those who want to dismantle them and those who are having pedophilia urges of children to literally plant a seed that would cause the group to stumble, at the same time, they always keep getting back up and growing and expanding no matter how many times they take a blow to the face.

As for us Unitarians, however, we tend to take major issue with the Trinity doctrine, immortal soul doctrine, the heaven and hell torment doctrine, as well as those who believe God can die and so forth, and any One World Religion infleuncer who is using the world as a literal turret on real truth and Christianity based on scripture.

Our God and Father is One and True, should anyone come up with something absurd, even what the other Unitarian denominations who are in error who teach this, will get rebuked and will be met by many Christians who oppose falsehood.

11 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And yes, there are a hundredfold concerns to be had. Concerns for those brothers and sisters in countries under ban is one.

But my heart and my brain are only of a small size and I cannot think of a hundred things at once.

My only concerns are for what is right In GOD'S eyes through Jesus Christ. I care not for the rest of the world in a larger way. People as individuals yes, the world no.

I worry about brothers and sisters all the time and how they are threaten, even killed, raped, and or is dying, but their oppressor allows them to die, even laughing at the Christian who is only seconds away from death - the world is a cruel place, and since the response is in regards to child abuse, all I can say it is far worse of what is going on in the underground, so explicit that even your country will not speak on this and will do nothing about it, elsewhere there have been beheadings, people getting poisoned, people dying for their faith and those who die because they gave in, it is not easy to remain faithful, nor is it easy to maintain salvation. Outside of this, you have those who are on a warpath to destroy a religion, Christianity itself with falsehood and those who just oppose God and his word.

Need not worry about your heart or brain if you know what is true and false, for God has given our minds such capability to think, process and contain memory, for the mind is marvelous - at the same time, the mind can be both a blessing and a curse, for freedom and free will for some can result in trouble and consequence.

That being said, the concern should have been the start from the get go. We know the problems that the world poses and how such things infiltrate everything and everyone, even religious groups that are ill-prepared for dealing with the unknown.

The world will continue to rove about and those on it who continue to do bad against the good and or use the good just so they can commit ill intent to do bad. But the ruler of this world's days are numbered and he knows he does not have time left, for he will be imprisoned, and eventually brought yo nothing for he shall guilty and be subjected to eternal destruction and will be not found anywhere, thus being no more.

So be vigilant and be enduring, for everyone here is on the same path as you are, and be careful to not be misled by the smallest ant sized of information because it can prove fatal, the example would be, again, spiritual warfare, for there will be a time where you yourself will have to put that to the test whereas there will be a great deal of pressure that will be upon you - but know that should you be under a situation that you have to apply spiritual warfare and or civil disobedience, know that your positive action in the matter will show God how much importance you place on his word and his standards.

For whatever happens to them, it will happen to you - always be ready for anything can go down in an instant.

48 minutes ago, AlanF said:

While the major news channels that you mentioned do indeed often horribly slant the news, you should not leave out Fox News, which is by far the worst.

AlanF

Fox is horrible with the only exception being Tucker Carlson, who tends to break out of the Fox News mental lock at times to speak on critical things.

CNN is by far the worse, and it is known as the Communist News Network by some, at the same time, real independent journalists (I exclude Tomi Lahren because she is utterly insane - a cuckoo for cocoa puffs nationalist patriotic irl barbie doll who is blind) are being wiped out and or cleanse by the people of CNN who speak truth, for CNN will send the dogs after such persons for exposing CNN several times in the past.

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

This could only be said by someone who would enable child sexual abuse.

There is a solution that cuts occurances by 90%. He finds that "unimpressive."

The sad reality is that the general public only cares about the statistic and information provided while those on the other side of the spectrum tends to be out of the loop and not know of any such information and is willing to try and twist or break the truth instead of accepting what is true

Pretty much how things are going on with the whole gun control situation that has taken the US by storm, when real statistics pretty much proves as too much logic for those wanting change to accept -and will attack you what is true.

11 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And we get back to this point of the 'ten times better'. Let me give you an example. VW cars and now BMW also it seems, told lies about the amount of pollution their cars push out. BUT they would have given figures for how much pollution the cars pushed out, however the figures were lies. Now take that to the JW Org. The Governing Body / legal dept' / Organisation, would have given figures by the amount of Child Abuse cases it deemed to be 'real' and may have completely tossed out thousands of cases it deemed to be not worthy of actually making  a case out of. IF, the Org was using the 'two witness rule' then maybe thousands of cases were tossed out, because as it's been made clear before there was never two witnesses to sex abuse. And add to this, the fear of many congregation members to come forward, because of shame or not wanting to be disfellowshipped, then the numbers could easily treble.... As you know, in politics, figures are deliberately altered, so why should the GB be so different. As I've said before they call it 'spiritual warfare' to tell lies.

3rd time, look at what is said about spiritual warfare, no Christian who is true on this earth will allow man's law to override God's law. Christians will follow the laws of the land, but should a situation involves changing God's law and or what is written, expect civil disobedience, for that is what several people have done in the bible. Also as for the two witness rule, apparently any JW opponent will take it out of context compared to those who actually read up on what that rule is - me included.

As for child abuse reports, institutions are enabled to make record of such should they choose, minor or major information that they have. Many Jw church are not under fear of their own faith, you'd be surprised of how many current JWs and even former ones would rebuke you on the spot. The only people deemed fearful of a faith is a person, a Christian who does not want to believe in what they are taught, which is fact and true, especially in this day and age.

Lastly, if you have a big problem with Spiritual Warfare, David, Rehab and the others would not have succeeded, thus making God's promise be broken on the spot.

11 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Russia. A totally different story. Nothing to do with Child Abuse as far as i know. And yes to be persecuted for the sake of righteousness is a good thing. Jesus said it would happen. However Child Abuse is not righteous, so it is not persecution of the same type. It is demanding that the situation be made open to protect others from a similar fate.

On the contrary, there is some of us who knows what is going on in Russia and know what is taking place. The type of Child Abuse that has been taking place in 2016 prior to Vladimir Putin winning is grooming children and the youth to be on the side of the Kremlin, Nationalistic and the type of people who would give their lives for Russia, for the Kremlin, for the church, for the duma, and lastly, for Putin. On the other side of the spectrum, many youth have been listed on the FF website, especially those who are against Russian corruption and are targeted and if you speak on such obvious abuse, you can expect the FSB to be on your yard, your roof, and crashing through your windows. Prior to the JW ban, a Russia man, Kremlin opponent, had his door sawed off as the man they are going for was assuring his daughter, very young child, that everything is going to be okay, it has been speculated that this man was beaten carried off, and had a heart attack sometime after being apprehended, it is uncertain if he is alive or not because Kremlin Controlled Media speaks lies about nearly everyone. Obviously the child in question has been said to suffer from a form of abuse especially as to how the FSB treated her father.

Other then that, anyone that is deemed a threat to the Kremlin or its branches of power, being the duma and the church to name a few, will be targets, for even the youth will be subjected to a form of child abuse from their peers, from adults, and others, mainly mentally, but anyone close to their age, tends to get physical too, violent even. As for Sex abuse, well the FF software thing will expose you on the spot and you can't do a thing about it since whoever was the one who dropped the information and or images of you cannot be traced - defended by the Kremlin.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The Jews practised 'pikuach nefesh' and possibly still do. It means that life is more valuable than obedience to the Law. So in many cases the Jews were / are allowed to break the Mosaic Law to help someone to stay alive. 

True, but the Jews, specially Judaism, will not break anything in the Tanakh to save their own skin. They also have the Halakhah, for this one should be quite obvious for they too will not break any religious law, and just like some religions, they too do internal investigations of anything within their community, even child abuse, murder, sexual assault, etc. However, some of their religious laws mirror that of some Christian faiths, including the Jehovah's Witnesses.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Jesus also said 'I want mercy not sacrifice'.  Jesus was quoting Hosea 6 v6. 

But it got me thinking about Blood transfusions to save life. If Jesus himself said 'So it is lawful to do a fine thing on the Sabbath. 

Was he saying it is right to go against Bible law and principles if it means saving a person's life ? 

Jesus refers to mercy, and not sacrifice twice, for this can be found, as you said, in Hosea 6:6, as well as Matthew 12:7(see Proverbs 21:3 also). Matthew was tax collector who became an associate of Jesus Christ, and he is the only writer of the gospel to record this quote as well and in The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant - Matthew 18:21-25. In Matthew's gospel, he highlights Jesus’ repeated instances regarding that mercy is required in addition to sacrifice.

For the next part, understand the following verse.

Christ Came to Fulfill the Law

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. - Matthew 5:17

Knowing this, it should be abundantly clear that Jesus is not the type of person to imply that one should break the law for their own benefit, in fact, breaking any biblical law and or principle would not only put you in a bad position with God the Father, but with Jesus also, for he did speak on those who break the law- you have to consider what is said in scripture as if you yourself was living in those ancient days and not try to modernize what is being said here.

That being said, I understand how you feel about the whole Blood Transfusion thing, but what you do not realize is the blood transfusion thing is not a JW thing only, in fact, other groups, even a race/nation (majority being those who adhere to African and or Caribbean based culture, some Hispanic and or EU) based on culture and superstition will not want anything to do with blood, as a Christian however, it is also necessary to recognize that you are under the New Covenant - then again,mainly in the places like the UK, as well as the US, it is a choice one will have to make and in the end, they will have to deal with what God has to say. In addition to that, because of faith, some people are willing to die for it and or defend others by giving their life, so to speak and ironically, there is a literal number and or statistics of Christians dying because of their faith or giving their life up to defend others of the same faith. In the end, what is seen is the person's faith and works, and because of their maintaining such faith under the New Covenant that they are under, as Christians, God will know of their faith and works, and by means of his Son, he will resurrect them, in addition, this strong point of a Christian pretty much defines who is true and who isn't, for the world will see it as something absurd, but to the majority who know the laws of which God placed and the principles, they will not be against so and so, as for God, he will repay them prior to resurrection, especially those who had suffered like this, but kept their faith intact.

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

It actually cannot be said of any religious organization's figures because none kept any records. Your words not mine. So how do you make the comparison ? You simply cannot compare if there are no other records. 

And please stop harping on about the ARC. that was old news and there are plenty more investigations going on now. 

Actually it does matter, again, people care ass much for these things than most, for there are records of things, be it minor and or major, to be in denial of what people look at is not the greatest thing to do, that is like ignoring records of those kidnapped into human trafficking, homicides, gun violence, rape, famine, community and or ethno based  crimes, etc. all of which there having statistics and records, again minor and major for the public to see, in return, having a good idea of the subject at hand.

As for ARC, it is not old news... Information, final reports, etc that is available deems such things as important and unforgettable as well as give people some clarity of everything in a timeline like fashion. Child Abuse is not old news either, and it is not old news in regards to the victims.

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

ARC, Australia. One country. What about UK, Canada, USA, and Netherlands ? and even more worrying what about all the other countries which are not doing investigations because Child Abuse is just part of 'normal' life to them. 

Basically. Child Abuse, again, is globe and happens in all institutions, in some areas it happens a lot while in other areas it is a small percentage. At the same time, Child Abuse is pretty much accepted in the world as something normal and or accepted to the child culture, for instance, lets focus the United Kingdom.

Other then that, you'd be surprised that in some areas, child abuse is very low, at times, rarely happens. I made mention of several in a previous comment, and it  applies to all institutions, even religious ones in mentioned countries.

The team of six transvestites in the project have performed to over 2,000 children in the UK during the past eight months...

You can just do you': Boy, 10, founds a drag club for KIDS so they can express themselves in a 'positive, encouraging, and safe' space...

As we can see, such is an ongoing problem that has been popularized around the globe, obviously we see this as a form of child abuse and will be against it, while at the same time you have others who will defend this, which is clearly something that is wrong, the mental abuse is teaching that  child, regardless of their sex, can be any gender they choose to be or identify themselves, let's say, as a toaster, and you can't do a thing about it because people, including the laws in the UK will protect such persons from teaching such things. At the same time, you have the same people who accept such things target and or investigation religious faiths, only the Christians for the UK is known for being overly protective of Islam, as what was displayed a couple of weeks ago, and will crackdown on any Christian based faith if they have to regarding child abuse, but will not lay a hand on child abuse when it comes to a youth forced to marry their rapist, a youth being subjected to grooming and being part of the unlucky few who manage to escape a real underground based madness that the UK officials deemed as a hoax.

That being said, Child Abuse has 4 types of factions (possibly more):

• Those that are openly against it, will fight against it by any means necessary while some will find a smarter and non-extremist like approach in doing so - better ways, so to speak and will attack the one who has committed the crimes and not a group as a whole. At the same time, such persons will be victims of abuse and or witnesses of an abuse in their community and will do anything to the best of their ability to take out the individual(s) who are responsible.

• Those that are openly against it, will fight against it and will use an extreme approach and will literally trash and bash not only the individual, but the entire community and or group who are affected by child abuse and these same individuals are not better equip to deal with such a problem. Some will spark and or influence violence of said groups in order to have their way, even going as far as to form conspiracy and or negative remarks of the group whereas some people will take issue with how an aggressive approach is not appropriate, thus having not only to deal with child abuse, but those who are against their methods.

• Those that will openly defend Child Abuse, and not only accept it, but normalize it as if it is something that a community and or the world should also accept, at the same time, spawns more pedophiles out of the woodworks, as well as those who are trying so hard to fight the urge, but since they are literal being persuaded by the works of the world by the works of the flesh, they give in, thus giving more pedophiles more excuses to go into churches, schools, and other institutions due to being influenced to do so - should the future abuser be a female and not the opposite sex, they tend to get off easy, no matter which country and or state, be it Florida, New York while the way to Liverpool, London and more.

• The 3rd is the pretty much those in the middle, for they tend not to get involved with such things until they are dragged into it, should they suffer the abuse and or someone knows of such abuse, and or if they are in favor of this highly accepted and or normalized form of abuse and will be like a front line defense on those fighting against child abuse.

7 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Hany on in there Tom. Keep worshipping your Governing Body. Keep writing your book. Keep putting your head in the sand.

Again regarding church leaders. You quoted Romans 13, you may want to cross-reference of where the first couple of verses point to, especially in regards of what Jesus had said about not so and so cannot have authority over him unless it was granted by God himself.

For if God speaks of Shepherds to govern his flock, the flock take guidance and adhere to what is taught, therefore, allowing the flock to understand scripture and worship and obey God the Father, for if there was no shepherd at all or at least some form of guidance to at least put so and so on a correct path, how does one understand who God the Father is if they do not know what something means?

An example would be of you bringing up Spiritual Warfare multiple times, even a Watchtower article without understanding what Spiritual Warfare is or the fact that Christians can do Civil Disobedience - for only those who know these things can teach a student and or disciple of the flock so they get a good idea of what those things actually mean.

The only way someone can achieve such without a shepherd, thus becoming a shepherd themselves to to fully grasp and understand what the bible says, and there is no excuse, no shortcut, no easy path. For any minor misinterpretation and or something taught can literally lead you astray very easily.

That being said, more is needed than just belonging to a religion, for any man can claim he is part of a faith and or that he or she is a Christian, but does the opposite of what a person of faith needs to do.

James 1:27 - Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

That being said, the bible makes it very clear of the role of a leader, who is also deemed a shepherd, a steward, etc and what he is to do regarding the flock, therefore, one who heeds the word of the shepherd is accepting guidance and accepting what is true, thus putting the students/flock in a right path in serving the one and true God, in addition, these same students are responsible to heed command from the Head of the Church himself, Jesus Christ, to go out there to spread the good news of the gospel, to baptism people and make them too disciples.

Just make sure you know what  the role of such persons in the church next time, for any person can see this clearly in the bible itself.

Unfortunately it goes quite deeper than that (a bit of French NGO involvement and the Vatican), for the Kremlin, the State Duma, the Russian Church and any connected to them have their own agenda, in addition to several figures being killed off Boris Nemtsov style. Despite being the opposite of what is to come, they will also be heavy hitters of what is coming, for they already have Syria as allies, Turkey and so forth.

Plus you can see it in the polls for the Russian election, this has been talked about since 2016, and that March 2018 will be the day Russians will not be as pleased, which is true and fact for what they had predicted actually did happen, for the Kremlin has their hands on everything.

https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-moscow-housing-protesters-detained-duma-vote/28548077.html

All part of the agenda of what is going to come. As for the JWs in Russia it will not be easy for them at all, in a sense, it is like a struggle to endure and not break under something of that great amount of power. The JWs are lucky they are not in Chechnya, for in that area gays and Muslims have been disappearing off the streets, maybe Christians to and being moved to camps for slave labor, as a lot of the claims have made known.

1 hour ago, AllenSmith said:

Because people like you, and critics of the Watchtower within, don’t understand procedures in the laws of the land. And until you do? You will realize what setting precedence means. If you want things clear cut, why didn’t the ARC accept Bro? Jackson’s recommendation of making ALL CLAIMS mandatory?

 

But, I’ll explain it for the 19 time. It affects the outcome for other religions, especially those that hold the confessional privilege.

 

If you did understand, you would notice the difference between New York laws versus California laws.

 

Now! At what point did YOU decide, the Watchtower has what that biased San Diego Superior Court Judge wants? That the California Appellate Court found that lower court in error?

 

Once again, I’ll tell you the same thing I have told everyone here, let true lawyers handle these legal matters. This is NOT an issue for flunkies and wannabes!  My previous citation for argument has been from Secular Authority and their OWN laws! So let's NOT veer off topic and LEARN the laws of the land if your that passionate, without injecting false claims. Now that's rubbish!

 

Another thing is today's society seems to be very open and accepts pedophilia, child grooming and marriage and all that sort of things to the point it is now legal for a young person in the US to be forced to marry their rapist - laws made by men of which many, many people oppose. It is good to be against such things for they are indeed bad, but the reality is people do not go for the individuals, they go for a whole group, and such will pose as a problem, smart people tend to deal with such the smart way and not condemn an entire group, an example, the police, for the actions of a few, for if one police officer shoots and kills an child, execution style in her sleep, only this police officer should be dealt with, not the entire force for that district. The same thing applies for any person being the cause of violence, murder, rape, child abuse, etc. But apparently, people nowadays are not going about things the right way compared to the few who do, those who know the laws of the land.

And yes, the laws vary from state to state on how some issues are handled and or dealt with, examples like sentencing and or the death penalty, but even with that in mind, not many people tend to be aware of what these laws are, in addition, not every American even knows even about the Constitution of United States of America, of which is the bread and butter of the land - for if anyone paid attention to the March for your lives event, majority of the individuals do not know what this is and even though their cause is just, it can prove far more damage to what will happen in the future. In short, they'll ignore it and expect things to go good as time progress, which is evidently wrong, but those who are aware tends to think otherwise.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So why didn't the Governing Body obey the law of the land, and hand over the documents asked for in the USA ?

It seems that the Org handed over similar documents in Australia and in the UK. So it seems there is a division in the Org's thinking and actions here. 

Um, yet I thought it was common knowledge that the GB had been compiling Child Abuse accusation documents since 1997. True or false ?  

Well the thing is religious law, and just like all religions they not only have their own set of rules, but are subjected to religious law and secular law depending on where they live. Now if said law of the land will somehow hinder religious law, the only time civil disobedience is applied as we can see in Acts 5:27-29, as well as Acts 5:40-42. But is is believed they had handed over some documents, if I am not mistaken, but they will take issue should the law of the land pressure them to change their rules that sit under religious law, there is a line that some Christians will not cross for it would break following Scripture - break Nazareth Vow they made with God. This was already address in the other thread.

Since 1997 prior to, before and then after?

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

As for it affecting other religions, that's not important. Obeying Jehovah is what is important. Confessional privilege = dishonesty. To withhold information is going against Jehovah, but then back to what I've already said. The GB say it's ok for them to tell lies or withhold info' as they call it 'spiritual warfare'. 

Actually it is important for all other groups and institutions also have children among them as well as obeying God. Again, Civil Disobedience, read upon the women of the bible and the account of David and Jonathan. For if it were not for Civil Disobedience, not only such persons would lose their faith, but would have been stoned to death and or executed, especially in Rehab's case for the King's men showed up to her doorstep, and it was problem tough for her to defend those spies.

I have already address that too, spiritual warfare is a real and serious thing, if you are forgetting what was said, read what was addressed:

 

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You seem to be doing what the GB are doing, hiding behind laws which are not in line with Jehovah's instructions through Jesus Christ.

The thing is, what is by law of God and the laws of which was written in Moses day to now still applies present day, even though Christians are under the New Covenant.What is written cannot be broken - for God's law is above the law of men and should men do anything to change, alter or prohibit God's law, Christians will adhere to Civil Disobedience just as Rehab, Jael, Paul and others have in order to prevent such from happening - Spiritual Warfare.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So to be a good JW it seems you need to be a liar and be deceitful. But you proved that with your misuse of the Matthew scriptures.

Read the women of the bible and read up on how Jonathan protected David, as well as what Paul and Peter had said. Spiritual Warfare and Civil Disobedience applies to Christians also. Yes, they have to obey the laws of the land, but at the same time there is a line that they will not and cannot cross for there is a biblical reason, as to what is said previously.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Do you see what is happening to what is supposed to be the TRUTH ? God is being so insulted here. The scriptures are being misused regularly. OH dear, Jesus' words, I want mercy not sacrifice. But the Org shows no mercy.  

How is Scripture being misused, for if was, an example would have been provided. A Restorationist is a Christian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorationism) who follow scripture to its core, its primitive roots, literally, even in modern day and age and onward, only few among them would go far and beyond than others in terms of scripture, hence why the Jehovah's Witnesses are seen as the face of Non-Trinitarianism because literally going by the book - which is the bible, in addition to them being the main targets of mainstreamers and opponents to this day. Anyone who is in this position would not break God's law or change it for anyone, for in doing so, that angers God even more, and no one wants God's anger blazing upon them.

Romans 13:1- Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.

Acts 5:29 -  But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.

John 1:17 - For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

That being said, all Christians are obligated to adhere to the laws of the land and do so accordingly, there is no question about that, and should they have to, they can attempt to do things to the best of their ability to follow and take word of such laws and the people behind them, but again I will say, if the laws acquire said groups to change any religious laws, expect Civil Disobedience, for what angers God more is a man changing His word to fit the views of other men. As I recall, majority of those behind the law hates the bible also and cherry picks it if they have to, so if anyone is bible strict, they will try to do something in an attempt to break Christians, hence the reality of what mainstream Christianity is today, those that believe that the Son is the Father, for not only the blind leading the blind, but they break and change scripture in order to be part of the world's culture, ideology, their view over God's view, etc.

Lastly also, half of these things have been address in the other topic, there is not really a need to repeat what was responded to.

I'd also like to add this bit of information:

Quote

A Guardian investigation heard from 41 people who claimed they were victims of child sexual abuse and alleged a culture of cover-ups and lies, with senior members of the organisation, known as elders, discouraging victims from talking to the police.

A further 48 people said they experienced other forms of abuse, including physical violence when they were children, and 35 claimed they witnessed or heard about others who were victims of child grooming and abuse.

The Guardian was told that members of the community were taught to avoid interaction with outside authorities. It was also claimed that, according to rules set by the group, for child sexual abuse to be taken seriously there must be at least two witnesses to it. If that happened or a perpetrator admitted abuse, a judicial committee would be called and the case investigated.

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So what we know are there is a number who claim sexual abuse and has alleged there is a cover-up, for no one knows if that is true or not as well as the church leaders being said to discourage contacting the police.

Some have suffered from violent abuse, physical, and others have claimed to be witnesses of it, and some, surprisingly, brought up child grooming and abuse, when in the UK that is rarely done by any religious group besides those in the political chain and refugees with ill intent who are in the UK.

The next one is evident, the act of shunning and or ignoring people, for anyone who is excommunicated from the group are to not interact with members of the church, but at the same time, what was not mentioned is the fact that those excommunicated can be counseled still by church leaders, I believe the JWs call this shepherd calls or something like that whereas they send brothers and or leaders to speak with the excommunicated individual, as for the family, it is up to them on how they interact with so and so, especially if so and so is not a fan of God - it is not as crazy as the He'rem whereas you have to be cut out from the community as in kicked out not only from the church, but the community itself.

Again, I read up on the whole two-witness thing, but they have seem to blow the whole rule of it out of proportion - for not only ARC addressed a better clarification of what it is, so has other sources.

I wish them good faith that they deal with child abusers, but more than likely they would not attempt to kill off a religion just because - for the UK is known for allowing refugees to commit child grooming, but no one seems to be attempting to stop so and so who are for these things, as with the case of a religious social experiment done to prove this fact a couple weeks ago.