Space Merchant

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

No, all the false christian faiths know they are false, but it's just big business, power and control.....

Quote :  That includes obedience to those he has entrusted to lead in an earthly capacity. The anointed are an extension of the apostles.

Are now here we have a different story...... Firstly we need to be sure of whom he has 'entrusted to lead in an earthly capacity'.

Secondly, we need to know who the anointed are.

Thirdly, we need to know who has given authority to the Governing Body to say that only they, 8 men, out of hundreds anointed, are the special chosen ones to be the 'Faithful and discreet slave'.  

It's no good being one sided about it all. Yes we all know there has to be an Earthly organisation, but for you to just say that 'The anointed are an extension of the apostles', does not prove who the anointed are. So it's back to square one. 

True, for the blind tends to lead the blind and have monetary gain that does not contribute to anything regarding God, the Great Commission, etc. As for obedience, those entrusted to lead tend to be Shepherd, and only those who are true to their role are to guide people by means of scripture - and who is chosen and who these people are is between God and them, for God is capable of anointing and putting those in place to be as guides while others assume God has place them to lead when they in turn teach a false doctrine.

Perhaps because they are among the 8 out of the hundreds who are still out there for such persons of such a position is between them and God, so the who part is already obvious - for the chosen one and or anointed can be seen by their faith and works, despite being imperfect human beings.

We know this by reading, Romans 8:13-17, John. 1:9-13, James. 1:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:17, etc. verses that cross-reference to the ones mention

For those who are chosen is only known by their works and faith and by Holy Spirit upon them, of how they are chosen, it is between them and God the Father.

That being said, what should raise question is how many are alive still, and how many have deceased and been rewarded position of priesthood - but the majority of concern for many Christians who are not blind, is how many are alive for even in the end time tribulations only few of the chosen ones are to remain, and 144,000 isn't a big number, so anything goes between now and however among of days, months, years, etc left.

As I was told at a younger age, end times and tribulation will happen suddenly, I use to have dreams of what it would be like, what would take place, how the people would react, how violent people can get when things start to break and fall apart as if the world shut down, for at the time I thought of it taking place when I was still a boy, and then Harmageddon where everything concludes.

5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Every Christian denomination honestly believes there in the right path. It “all” boils down to interpretation.

I think that is complete rubbish. How in WW2 could Catholics and others of other so called christian faiths believe it was right to go to war against each other and to kill each other ? How could they believe it is right to get deeply involved with politics, when Jesus cleary said 'My kingdom is no part of this world ? How can they pretend that people, or people's souls go to heaven or hell when God's word clearly states that 'The dead are conscious of nothing at all' ? How can they teach a trinity when Jesus said 'My father is greater than I am' 

It isn't rubbish. If you've been around the block a few times as some may have, in my case the numerous debates I have seen as well as in person ones will say the same thing, hence better to be close to what is true than far from it.

As for the war, I agree with you, for in the past (now even) Catholics, Christians and Muslims have been going at it back in ancient times, mainly Christians and Muslims, with the Christians being front and center alongside the Catholics. Some have no other choice but to fight, others were pretty much persuaded to fight as they were being threaten.

As for today, there is a large amount of Christians who are for politics and war while another group is against it and will not partake, some Christians however, feel that it is their duty to defend for it is the only choice - then comes the question: would a Christian take a life of another Christian, who is also pushed to or persuaded to defend his or her country from outside forces, who also have Christians on their side?

An example would be the Seventh Day Adventist, for they are more likely the type of Christians, like some of the mainstream ones, to go at it with others.

All in all, we are not to be the type of people to take part in these things, I have already read in depth about what happen to the Christians in Syria and Christians who were for that madness, as with other things, should be very ashamed of themselves.

This is an example of what Christian Nationalist who are in support of also taking lives via cold blooded murder thinking it is worth it and for the greater good.

 

On the other side of the spectrum, there are Christians who are against such things and like always, they are attacked, ridiculed and bashed for it. We are not suppose to take arms, go overseas to kill others, especially if it is innocence getting in the way of gunfire.In addition, because of the action of allies, some Christians, mainly in the Middle East, were forced, having no other choice, to break their faith in order to defend themselves because of the damage their so called allies have caused in the country.

All in all, it is a tough world for a real Christian, you will be branded as a man or a woman not for his or her country for not going to war or helping out in it, you will be called a fanatic for believing in God, you will be called a false prophet and a cultist for not believing in the Trinity, if you are a race other than white you will be told that the bible is not for you because you are not the same color and or race as them, you will be prey to politics and government, all things of that nature.

Another thing is Christians who are for war and politics do not know the damage they have caused and or they are unaware of what following such things contribute to, Libya, Syria, Jerusalem, they are fools to think what was done there was a just thing to do.

In the end, Christians who live by scripture will always be targeted, and it will get progressively worse as the days go by for there is something big in the works that should not be ignored and should make one very vigilant of what is taking place and what is to take place.

It is times like this we need to be very careful and watchful of things.

 

 

8 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Every Christian denomination honestly believes there in the right path. It “all” boils down to interpretation.

 

The ONLY true path is exact understanding of scripture. There you will find the true context and intent of Gods words, especially the ones enabled by Christ. Theology has come a long way from the early personal acclaim of fear and no hope for the wicked.

 

Unfortunately, you have many here that REFUSE to understand the OPERATIONAL structure that Christ laid out for his servants to follow. THAT INCLUDES LEADERS AMONG THE FOE!

 

However, the ONLY father that should be chosen, close is, our heavenly father. That includes obedience to those he has entrusted to lead in an earthly capacity. The anointed are an extension of the apostles.

 

And yet, some make outlandish comparisons to gather public Input for research to sell their books. On other forums, I call them enablers and hypocrites. A good bible researcher works to honor and glory, God, NOT themselves. That’s why I haven't found a GOOD historical researcher of the Watchtower that doesn’t end up putting their own delusional spin on their works. Hopefully, someday, a true historical account about the Watchtower will emerge.

 

Agreed, you'd be surprised on how some Unitarians are not a fan of other Unitarians who stick to scripture, as well as an onslaught from Trinity believers, KJV-onlyist, mainstream and dishonest Christians, New Agers, people who believe they follow Christ but truly do not, etc. The other day I had to deal with a guy who claims to be Christian who stated that Jesus Christ is not the promised seed and or prophet, and the funny thing is he can't nor has he ever used scripture, even when I gave him proof from the bible, this guy was ready to go nuts and trying to claim I was wrong - but yeah, there are Christians who claim to be, but will incite infighting, falsehood and use conspiracy and or believe in conspiracy and all that jazz.

That being said, those who are in the right by understanding and applying scripture are True Christians, as well as following Jesus' examples no matter what, in addition to having to quell those who pushing out a false doctrine. But as of late, mainstream Christians are on a massive decline, especially in the UK and the EU, ironically, they do know what they are doing wrong - the answer is quite evident, and more and more people are now knowing how false fake or blind Christians are.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

@Nana Fofana thank you for the link.  I read as far as page 10, then read the final page. The bits that i can understand make sense  

It is also best to take a look at those who study Hebrew also, I recommend Jeff A. Benner: http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/jeffbenner/

For it was of his work, brought me into learning Hebrew even further.

Lastly, you would be surprised that some people, a few, to this day do not consider Yahweh and or Jehovah as God's name despite both the names (because they do not like when someone is right), referring to God, is of the norm in today's day and age, just as Jesus and or Yeshua.

In the end, when you call for the Father, he listens.

7 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

 So make me wise oh informed one. How does one get Jehovah From YHWH ? which of course would have HWHY as it was written from right to left

Even Yehovah replaces the W with a V.

You can't be serious? 

First of all, do not think for a second that YHWH/YHVH can be spell HWHY, it is a Hebraic Violation and a hermeneutical Violation right there. ????? (from right to left) is YHWH, there is a reason as to why I responded with that video on my previous comment from the words of an experienced Hebrew Professor.

YHWH is roughly translated to and or transliterated to the following: Yahuwah, Yahweh, Yahovah, Jehovah, Jahweh, Jehovah-jireh, Yahweh Yireh, Yah, Jah, etc.

One would need to know their Bible an the verses, especially the Tanakh (Hebrew Old Testament). Jehovah God almost certainly refers to ??????? ????????? (YHWH elohim). It is combination of the proper name of God (YHWH, known as the Tetragramaton; rendered in English as Yahweh or Jehovah, but the vocalization is uncertain. The convention followed by most translations is to render the hyphenated YHWH elohim as LORD God (all caps), at times used as The Lord (L is cap'd) in some places, usually in the Greek New Testament.

The Lord is usually a translation of ??????? "Adonai. It is a special plural form of adon, which means lord or master, used only in reference to God. The reason that it is plural is because the Hebrew word for God is grammatically plural and Adonai was often substituted for YHWH and/or elohim out of respect for the divine name (look at the bible project video above). Eventually Hebrews stopped pronouning the divine name out loud at all, an example would be when they stopped using God's name and used Adonai for Shema Yisrael (The Shema Israel) based prayer - today they still use Adonai, others today use Yahweh and or Jehovah, the Muslims have a similar Shema Yisrael prayer found in the Qu'ran and in place of Adonai they use Allah. The convention followed by most English translations is to render Adonai as The Lord (with only the letter "L" capitalized).

So, the difference between Jehovah God and The Lord is a lot like the difference between saying  Barack Obama (name) and The President (title). Both are frequently used in the Hebrew Old Testament, among dozens of other names and titles, to describe (the only) God of the Hebrews - The God of Israel (elohim Yisrael).

The English word for YHWH is Yahweh or Jehovah. Because the Israelite stopped saying the name aloud before the 3rd century BC and vocalization (vowels) were not added to the written text until the first millennium AD (finalized in the 9th century), again, the correct vocalization is uncertain. The Masoretic (9th century) vowel points suggest Y?h?'w?h, but the word is variously also pronouned yä?w?*, -w?; Yah·veh (-v?, -v?); Jah·veh (yä?v?, -v?); Jah·weh (yä?w?, -w?). YHWH with or without conjunction with the various titles for God occurs more than 6000 times in the Hebrew Bible. Bibles like the KJV has replaced God's name, found on the Tetragramaton, with LORD about 6,519 times, an example would be Deuteronomy 4:2 as well as 6:4 (Shema Yisrael)

KJV (removing the name) -  4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

6:4 - Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

When we can see in Hebrew the correct use of God's name:

4:2 -  ??? ???????, ???-???????? ?????? ??????? ???????? ???????, ????? ?????????, ?????????--????????, ???-??????? ?????? ??????????, ?????? ???????, ???????? ???????.

The Shema

6:4 -  ??????, ??????????: ?????? ??????????, ?????? ?????.

 

Yahweh is occasionally shortened to Jah or Yah (Hebrew: ???? Yahu). The short form of the name occurs 50 times in the Hebrew Bible, of which 24 form part of the phrase Hallelu-jah. Adonai occurs about 450 times.

The Hebrew equivalent of the English letter "J" is pronounced as a "Y" in Hebrew, so that the name Jacob, for example, is pronounced Y??-k?b in Hebrew.

That being said, if you got a problem with YHWH, then you got a problem with the name Jesus and an army of other names containing letters such as Y, I, J and several others.

Bare in mind also, these translations of these names, especially God's name, are Transliterations.

7 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I've often thought that the JW Org took the name Jehovah conveniently as it was already a known name. But if the name Jehovah came from false religion then I would have thought it would be wrong.  I've always let it pass because I thought it was better to have a name of some sort rather than just God or Lord. And to be honest i think there are more important issues. 

Well you thought wrong, and thinking as such just further proves that you really need to not only learn the history of scripture, but of Christianity itself, the name for YHWH be it Yahweh and or Jehovah, has been used by a majority of others, even today, the same way that Yeshua/Yehoshua is used for Jesus.

The name of God and of the Son did not come from any religion be it false or true - so you have clearly been either hiding under a rock, not really diving deep into scripture history, or just one of those guys out there that do not like using either Yahweh and Jehovah and will simply stick to LORD, Adonai (meaning The Lord) or else. Just bare in mind, God understands what language you speak and knows of whom calls upon him, the fact that people fight over a name is absurd when clearly an Almighty God knows of when any of his children calls for him through his Son - for God the Father, YHWH/Jehovah/Yahweh understands all.

Psalm 139:4

Even before a word is on my tongue, behold, O LORD, you know it altogether.  (see Hebrews 4:12)

That being said, if there is more important issues, why bring this up something that is technically elementary based theology? God and or Lord is but a title

As for the Shema, I have already posted it in English and Hebrew, this is how it appears in the Qu'ran for Muslims:

Sura 112 (Al-Tawhid or Monotheism) - Arabic: ???? ???? ??????? ??????? - Qul Huwa 'Ll?hu ?A?ad ("Say, He is Allah the One")

In Hebrew:  ?????? ?????????? ???? ?????????? ???? ?????? - Sh'ma Yisra'el YHVH Eloheinu YHVH E?ad

You can see the similarities, since the Shema Yisrael (found in the Torah/Deuteronomy) and the Tawhid are basically identical.

In the end, The Shema is very important to the Jews at the time, it was also important to Jesus, and it is important to majority of us today, for we believe in a God that is one and true, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, this one who is Almighty of whom we thank and who saves, is called YHWH (Yahweh/Jehovah).

As for the Shema, I posted this information in full before, you can also look this up online if you must: 

 

I suggest you take a good look at those videos I posted in this same thread. At least you get a better understanding.

Also the name does not have anything to do with the occult (they are known for taking any kind of name and making a false one however and soon these persons will get the price paid in full), anyone who thinks otherwise is nothing more than foolish person who probably can't tell the difference between a sandal or a sneaker - thus remaining ignorant of what is obvious and true. Take a look at the post Librarian posted, if that does not feed your appetite, hard facts will just have to be thrown.

4 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

I'm starting to get the impression they don't think Jesus had a pre-human existence?  But I'm afraid to ask that and  other things, yet am kyrioser and kyrioser about.

Depends on which Unitarian is which. There are some who do not believe Jesus pre-existed, and there are some who do - it is no red pill, blue pill situation.

3 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

Yep I surely do agree with that.  'Cept bein a Jw an thereby amongstest the most lowliest of humankind and prey to them unfortunate folkways ov the lowly'n'smallminded, natcherly I would try to 'draw a bead on'im' so ta speak, get him classified as tew his 'nominals' as regard beliefs, an then stereotype him in a most prejudice fashin, an all'a'that, jess lak you'd expeck!

http://ncbf.homestead.com/Did_Jesus_have_a_Pre-Human_Existence.pdf

Now accordin'ta this'un hyere^ he's a-callin the pre-human existence believers as 'arians' so I reckon we liable to have th'SPLC  down awn air hides nexx!  Itz no rest fur th'wicked an rednecked, that I know!  thx

Prey? Your typing has started to break throughout your sentence.

With that last comment, there is a huge difference in an Arian and a Semi-Arian, as well as a Subornationist, last I recall, I refuted 2 individuals here regarding Arian based worship, for instance, showing total religious worship and servitude to the Son and not the Father, things of that nature, a minor thing makes the difference and since there is already a thread with what I said, I do not feel the need to repeat myself.

Lastly, you just posted a mere pdf, not realizing how many Unitarian groups even exist, which one are you talking about? I can tell you right there the majority is Universal Unitarianism and they are not the type to agree with the rest of the tribe (other Unitarians).

anyways, if I may add, I recommend getting a new keyboard if that is the cause of your questionable typing, if not, your current may be needing of a good cleansing - but if you are joking around, I remain unfazed.

That being said, some of us are basically Non-Trinitarians, which as as simple as it gets.

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I really don't know much about Unitarians except that @Space Merchant does not seem like a typical one. But then again, maybe there are no typical ones and they are like ice crystals - no two are the same. He sure knows a lot of stuff. I sure am glad he hangs around. He sure supplied some good info.

Not all Unitarians are the same,and ironically, we are separate from each other for there is basically different denominations within the Unitarian faith. Other then that majority of us who know our bibles are not fans of the Trinity Doctrine and we believe that God is one and true, and his chosen Christ, the Son, the man named Jesus, is the one of whom he sent, the one of whom he has exalted, we respect others who are on the same path as us and do not try to butcher the scriptures as the Trinitarians and Gnostic do as well as others who try to make God into something that he is not.

Other then that, I know plenty, as well as the views of others, and as some already know, I am not a fan of uninspired scripture added to the King James, Christians who are dishonesty and or oblivious to what is true, those who believe God is a 3 in 1, etc.

But yeah, not all of us Unitarians are the same.

And here I am criticizing Matthew previously for bringing back a dead thread that has met its resolve more than 750+ days ago, but it would seem it has been succeeded by the other thread spilling over to this one thus making the present day comments unrelated to the main topic itself by a huge margin.

Well this tends to be expected from necro-posting, ah well.

As for the secondary topic, pertaining to what I explain to Matthew about forum rules, if you get blocked to a topic without notice it is refereed to as a shadow block (referred to as a Shadow Ban as well as stealth banning, ghost banning), when you can't post at all with out being notified about when and why this happens - but every forum and or community has a different phrase for it, but it is what it is.

@JOHN BUTLER Not everyone tends to use their real name on the internet, even if they did, out of the bunch there is a common person that stalks so and so on the internet in order to steal information and or account, or in the mindset of silly persons nowadays, they will troll said use to no means end.

Other then that, I had assume that a resolve has been met in the other thread, but if one were to continue on about said topic, there was literally an identical thread regarding the same topic - instead of Nicole, the author is John.

It is people like this that will drive themselves into a world of trouble. For some parts of the US is in enough finical trouble as it is.

Jake M. may have a word on this, for stuff like this is sort of his thing and it is rarely wrong on what he says or finds.

2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Move to where there IS clean water.

Or, learn how to purify water at home ... with a box, gravel, sand and some household bleach.

If you stare at trees ... it does not provide clean water.

Adapt and improvise YOURSELF!!

At times it does not always work out that way, the same can be said about food supplies, resources, etc. at the same time, a risk. At times support of other resources that aren't for helping begets the very problems that cause some of these things that people succumb to.

All in all, should one choose, there is probably 50/50 chance.

2 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

Saving face or the trauma of an investigation is really no excuse not to report. It's not just about punishment. By identifying sexual predators, law enforcement can remove the offender from society or monitor his whereabouts. If a child molester isn't reported to police, he can go and do the same evil to another innocent child. In fact, evading punishment can embolden a sexual predator. It's disturbing that predators were able to hop from congregation to congregation leaving a trail of abuse. JWs look to the elders for direction--we know many JWs that await their permission for the most mundane things. But their example shows a resistance to reporting abuse unless the legal system forces their hand. So what does that communicate to these ones? Don't get the police involved. That's read between the lines.

Right, there's no excuse to report something at the same time people can choose to take some sort of action and how they go about such action they tend to carry out. Regarding Child Abuse with what is known predators are indeed taken off the streets and or investigated closely by authorities. The reality is, whether an abuser, be it reported, not reported and or under investigation, does any of the crime such as violence, and or molestation, such acts are still done by the abuser prior to his or her capture, far more difficult if the molester and or the one who has done the violence is a child who has abused another child, something of which that is not really talked about but is among one of the forms of child abuse, an example would be as seen in this article: https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/what-drives-a-child-to-commit-sexual-abuse-2114974.html

Other:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child-on-child_sexual_abuse

Evading punishment does not embolden a pedophile, for it is fact and evident that in the past and to now and onward, sexual predators have and will use various tactics to earn the trust of the targeted victim(s) and those that the victim is close to, be it parents, churchgoers, school peers, etc. One of the signs is that sexual predators with said trust can gain access to their victim easily for the victim suspects nothing, the most common case is if the predator buys gifts for the victim, volunteer to stand in as a guardian for the victim and so forth - something of which they cannot do unless they earn the trust of anyone connected to the victim and when the moment comes, these sexual predators take action when the victim is alone, for that is the goal for any of their tactics, to get the victim alone in one way or another, at times in the realm of Child Abuse in religion, predators, specifically Traffickers, use the Bible in order to lure children and those who are victim will be subjected to other things far worse than Child Abuse. Believe it or not, even in the Dark Internet (Deep Web) tactics are often shared,  and other vile things that is spread throughout the dark corners of such a space.

That being said, predators within the Jehovah's Witnesses do not stem too far from the tree, for like all predators, they go to a place where children is readily accessible, earn the trust of others, buy gifts even, and since this is a religious institution, they will attempt to hold some sort of position inside. The victim will not suspect a thing nor will the others, and seeing how JWs are known pacifist, their kindness and caring nature tend to be exploited quite easily, for as some have said, Christians who display a lot of love are easily exploitable, in the eyes of a predator, all they see is suckers for punishment who are gullible. Predators will usually move on to their next victim or another area after their actions to the first victim, to them it is like a game, a hunger to seek out other victims, using their status and or position as well as knowledge to trick another group of people, and find more victims to prey on, and they continue this cycle, should they find themselves being clumsy, they tend to jump off grid until they are tracked.

One of the reasons as to why real enemies of Christianity not only promote Child Abuse, but they are in literal back-flipping joy when Child abuse allegations is affecting religion, taking advantage of the child sex allegations.

Jehovah's Witnesses and church leaders of each of their church reflect what Jesus said about Shepherds to a Flock being one. As with any church, a churchgoer, one of the flock, will see guidance and or advice from those who are heads of the church, the shepherd, Deacons, Elders, Priests, Pastors, whichever you want to call them, so it is understandable as to why they are like this - for the bible says so.

I wouldn't call it resistance, for such things a church tends to handle things internally is within grounds of church discipline and any scriptural law/rules that they follow, so to speak. The only issue is when Child Abuse happens, those who are caught in the mess do not know how to deal with it and attempt to go about it thinking they are doing good in trying to figure things out, and clearly not ever church leader is experienced in dealing with Child Abuse, it is like saying if you are a church leader and found out about child to child abuse, since the abuser is below the age of 13, you will clearly be inexperienced to deal with that matter when police themselves suspects the abuser is an adult, when clearly that is not the case, on my end, I do have that experience and can recognize the signs, in addition to actually talking with people who were subjected to it.

All in all, JWs will just have to be educated on Child Abuse more effectively, they have publications on the subject that can easily be found, and if they can, they can talk with others to recognize the signs or speak to those with experience, so that way, things can be handled by the individual church swiftly and quickly with succession. That being said, ironically, pertaining to what Tom have stated, Child Abuse among JWs is low when all areas of which JWs have their churches and or found is very low, some areas there is little to no Child Abuse and or violence, places of which I had already made known to John earlier on.

2 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

Why resist the authorities that have the means to uncover evidence of wrongdoing? The elders cannot get a warrant to search a person's property--their investigations are reliant on willing testimony. Even with evidence, they can't make an arrest. It seems odd to resist a resource that could potentially expose a predator and keep the congregation clean. 

No. for they are obligated to follow the law of the land - but the law of the land itself cannot counter the law of God, for the law of God is the principle of which Christians follow within Christendom which is the polar opposite of mainstream Christianity who are willing to change what is written to be different, perhaps gain new converts which is the case in our day and age. To follow what the scripture say and suddenly resist contradicts one's faith easily. That being said, another thing within the realm of Child Abuse, if so and so has little to no evidence of what took place, nor have information to back it up, one key element is living evidence, which is the victim him or herself - for they can speak of what took place to a trusted adult, as instructed by those who teach the signs of child abuse regarding the victim, if one adult is unable to help and or offers little aid, tell another adult. There is also instruction if one police officer and or someone of authority is in the same position, You can go up the chain, so to speak for if the victim and or trusted adult feel that their complaint isn’t being taken seriously or if one feels  uncomfortable, the victim and or trusted adult can ask to speak to a supervisor or the next-highest ranking officer, again another adult.

Children will tend to speak to those they feel comfortable around and who is trusted. As for those who they speak this to, some will go above and beyond to do what is necessary, others will give advice and give guidance to the victim on what to do next, some will contact someone else to handle the issue because they at times tend not to get involved because they are uncomfortable persons, etc.

All individuals are different and go about such subjects differently and are not the kinds of people to not resist for even the police knows of such tendencies of those who tend to be surprised and or uncomfortable of such things revolving around child abuse. Now with parents, they have to go about things the right way in order to not entice fear in the victim, their child and or children, the case tends to be different if a relative and or family member is the abuser. Some families also want to keep things private and not cause a stir to other families and or people within the community - hence why is is crucial to respect the privacy and wishes of the family in this regard.

I need not to post a literal source to this because it is common sense, especially if you know the views and backgrounds of people who suffer minor to major abuse and or some form of violence and or tragedies. In the end, you take aim and guide your arrow to the root of the problem that is child abuse and the individual involved, not the people who are not involved and technically bystanders.

This is why those who are wise knows how to deal with the problem that is child abuse than those who want to burn everything down thinking that it is a just cause, to make matters worse, what they see as just they assume God wants them to do such things - very wrong and false on their part for thinking so, thus making the real enemies out there gain strength and number to really have it in for Christianity.

2 hours ago, Noble Berean said:

TBH I think the org decided many years ago to not get involved in child abuse and to put the burden on the family. How often can it be said that a family's choice has authority in this org? This was likely to cover their butts from legal accountability. This means the elders have limited capacity to protect the flock. It's unfortunate that this lawyer attitude has permeated the org. At some point, the org is a beast that behaves with its own self-interests and not the individuals that make up it. The org uses human law more and more to justify it's behavior.

The Jehovah's Witnesses do not have any choice, child abuse is like the Black Plague, to make it even worse, pedophilia and the sexual urges to children is like a curse, a demon, if you will, a person is afflicted by an cannot expel it, you'd be surprised of how many of them, who do not enact their vile urges on  child tend to see out professional help from those who know of the psychiatric disorder, and or do themselves a favor by getting away of children, self-isolation, which seems to be the case for some, others who have committed suicide, not wanting to harm a child and thinking that death is the only way out. Taking this into mind you have to see the world for what it really is - the price we pay for imperfection. To a degree, this world is a mess and a day will come when all that mess will be cleaned up,and child abuse will not be the very thing we worry about before we sleep. To make matters even worse, your biggest problem is that pedophilia and child abuse is being normalized, accepted in today's society, that in itself, as you said, emboldens predators, as well as those fighting such urges to snap and turn and becoming a monster that they tried not to be. I said this here before, Child grooming and marriage is seen as right - for children who were molested, raped, are forced to marry their rapist because it is now law in some parts of the US, and it is all over the place in the UK and EU countries, elsewhere, you have the underground where the most vile and sick things take place by real people of Babylon the Great that will not only rape and kill their victims, but the children of their victims should any child be born.

With that said, the Jehovah's Witnesses, like everyone else, is but a bird in crossfire, and obviously will end up taking a hit, which seems to be the case. To them however, they will attempt to deal with the situation at hand, but at the same time, they cannot and will not break biblical law to appease men, regardless of any legal action and or accountability - for if they had went around God's law or Paul's action of Civil Disobedience, as did Ra'hab and several others, they would end up like the mainstream Christians who are not really Christians at all compared to JWs, in addition, their strict following of the bible, as I told John, is borderline Nazarite Vow level, if you know what that is and how important it was. Family's do have choices, hence Child Abuse Prevention and identifying the Signs from various information and sources that are public to help minimize and or deal with child abuse, for if you tell someone about it, you can tell someone else, no one is preventing anyone from going to the police or to others to speak on the issue - it didn't stop parents from going about the issue of child abuse, even doing a bit of investigation for themselves reaping minor and or major evidence when teachers in educational institutions, mostly female teachers, who had sexually abuse, offered drugs and or gave their child alcohol. To the parents who are against child abuse, this is deemed a victory, and the school who had helped and or helped a little, did what they can do support for like others, they tend to be caught off guard, some did internal investigations of their own while helping some parents. Sadly, the law has given a free pass to female predator(s) that is, as they say, a perfect 10, because of looks, at times a feeble attempt of regret and repentance before the judge, obviously a double standard to male predators - justice system is a failed one.

Believe me, one can identify a beast when they see it, and it is not the Jehovah's Witnesses, last I recall, they were not among the Christians who literally handed over Syranic Christians over to ISIS, as well as contributors to child marriage laws and the like. That fact that you consider them or their church as the beasts just proves how people in today's society are more doom of what is soon to be seen due to not being vigilant and aware, that being said, a Restoration Christian group to be a beast is not only laughable, but lacks substance. In addition, the real hands of the beast are indeed at work if you paid any attention of what was going on for the past several years, for instance, the Summer of 2016, the events that took place prior to the JW ban in 2017, which indeed prove true since Vladimir Putin was reelected as president for the win was of little effort. All I can say about that remark of yours, is you are not ready for what a majority of us Christians know, I say this to JWs too, but they tend to be the more enduring ones, while others are more vigilant and ready.

And what are these human laws that they use? Restorationist follow religious law 100%, but if you are willing to post them, it would be wise to do so. Other then that, all Christians follow the laws of the land, but never ever will they allow the laws of the land to override God's law - for there is no type of laws that is above the Law of the one who is watching down over us.

God even says not to add, change or remove from the word.

Jesus stated the Scriptures cannot be broken.

Both of them are obviously in the right for saying such, for even man cannot break what is written, unless they are anti-Christian or mainstream Christians.

Anyways, take aim at the problem and those who contribute to it, not the people, this is the words of a UK native - who is against child grooming and child abuse.

That being said, people who know the laws agree with what the ARC say and made known about the JWs, and such information is public so it is readily easy to fact check anyone spouting something that is incorrect, and or anyone who has that Rick Wiles mentality.

The people know, friend, and they are not bashing JWs, they are gunning for the pedophiles found in the faith, as well as pedophiles who has been spread throughout all institutions known to man and even the very laws of which the US, the UK, and parts of EU that allows child grooming.

22 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Enough, this isn't about winning battles is it. People trying to show how 'intelligent' they are, or how knowledgeable they are. 

It will do me more harm than good trying to converse with you all. You all have your point of view and I have mine.

It isn't about winning a battle, it is about what is just and what is unjust, for what is right and what is wrong. Proving what is fact and true isn't shedding of one's intelligence, it is about making know what is already made public for everyone to look into the information themselves. As for me, and others who understand, it isn't a point a view or an opinion, especially with what I posted about Rahab and the history itself of the Passover and how churches have been operating since the day Jesus said the very words to Peter in Matthew 16:18, the schisms that left to denominational differences of those speaking of what is true an those speaking of what is not true.

26 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

My concerns are not what 'men' think of JW Org, but what God thinks of it. I was hoping things would move forward more quickly but it seems I must have patience.  In probably 3 more months things will become more plain for everyone to see. And by the end of the year hopefully God will have sorted the Org out, if indeed He intend to use it at all. 

God rally does not have to think if he can already see the hearts of men, especially with what is said the Hebrew Old Testament of those in the right and those in the wrong - Deuteronomy 30:15-20:

(15) “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil. (16) If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you today, by loving the Lord your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it. (17) But if your heart turns away, and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them, (18) I declare to you today, that you shall surely perish. You shall not live long in the land that you are going over the Jordan to enter and possess. (19) I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live, (20) loving the Lord your God, obeying his voice and holding fast to him, for he is your life and length of days, that you may dwell in the land that the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.” 

With that in mind, know that in every group, even the Jehovah's Witnesses, there is good people who do their best to do what is right even if they tend to go about some things incorrectly since they are not properly experienced in somethings, and there is bad people among them who will abuse position, do bad things, trick and or deceive people, at times even purposely going into the faith to disrupt them, wrong them, etc.

Man can view things with his own eyes, but God does not need to think for he has already set in motion of what to expect regrading those with good hearts and those with bad hearts, he does not care about your sex, age, background, but your heart alone and your faith in him and his son by means of worship and your works.

I'll say it again, with that in mind, God knows who is and who is not for him, that being said there is a biblical reason a strong one as to why some Christians, knowing or not knowing of how JWs operate do not and will not subject themselves into attacking them, bashing them, spreading their faults and the like and mixing it with conspiracy -  for such persons know how God views holiness and purity, something that is highly important to God, and will not go on such a path as to which a majority is taking - be it against JWs, Anti-JWs or infighting contributors, for there is a price to pay in front of the White Throne of Yahweh/Jehovah God and the one he has appointed as his Messianic King.

So I will say it again, you are 100% in the right to be concern about Child Abuse in the Jehovah's Witnesses faith, but to sully them and bash them regardless if you have a disdain for them or not, heed the scripture so you do not end up like the many who has gone off path

Matthew 7:23 - But I will reply, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God's laws.' (see Luke 13:25-27).

In the end, they are still your brothers and sisters, this includes the leaders of the JWs also, who are indeed your brothers too and everyone else on the earth for we are all children of God (bene elohims of elohim). Those who do wrong, God does not have to think, for such persons will be judged and will not avoid such judgement, this includes wicked persons who will be raised out of Sheol to be judged in front of the White Throne, Revelation 20:11-15 Judgment Before the Great White Throne.

40 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

When i joined the Org i had just been 'released' from a Children's Home where i had suffered sexual, physical and emotional abuse. As a complete contrast the congregation I joined was so full of peace and what i thought was love. That is why i accepted it so easily. I was naive and looking for security in a wicked world... Now having grown up and with a wider outlook  I want to ask as many questions as fill my mind. And having spent time doing my own research I've found many things that I'm not happy with. 

Do not worry, for soon the day will come where all that wickedness that stem from Child Abuse, those affected by it, will be at peace when the day comes, this is why you have to and must endure no matter what. But as I said before, several times even, bad people will be dealt with no matter the faith, that being said, anyone Christian who takes the lifestyle of Christians by means of what is said in scripture do not shed false love, and I made mention of how some churches vary by means of nation and culture before, for one church who shares the same and or similar faith is more connected by means of culture and chemistry with others in their community when other churches somewhat weak and or lack in this love, but never, will one show false love - that being said, this goes for Restorationist, never have any of them, ever, shown false love, some may be weak, yes or lack, but never false - research history of Christianity if you still do not get that.

45 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So i will continue to pray to God daily, and to continue to search and research. And of course to continue to read God's word. 

Prayer is continuous, friend and continue to do that for there isn't a time of day to pray and choosing a time to pray - when you pray you pray for it is a direct contact to God the Father, for in prayer the only way to the Father is through Jesus.

I also invite you to understand what Spiritual Warfare is in regards to the women of the bible as well as the situation with Jonathan protecting his friend, David, who is of Jesus' genealogy - Matthew Chapter 1.

47 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I really would like to give warning of the massive storm i see coming and the danger it may cause to brothers and sisters, but no one will talk to me, so there is nothing i can do. i do ask my wife to warn others that danger may be close by, but she refuses to do so. So I'm quite helpless in the matter. If violence happens because of the knowledge that people gain then so be it. I could not talk of it when i was a brother, and now no one will listen. 

The massive storm that is coming is not regarding Child Abuse, John. There is very very serious works that is in play here, something of which to you, to the Jehovah's Witnesses and to everyone else that is deemed outlandish and or surreal, but it seems not everyone is quite vigilant, however, endurance may be at play should things begin to tick by the second.

This works are being done by powerful people of the world, some powerful people who are against and will cause problems of a power struggle that will effect practically every breathing soul on earth, these men and women, children even, are members of Babylon the Great, and there is a substantial about of dark and actual true evidence of this.

That being said, in regards to Child Abuse, any young child who is somehow intertwined with such things, just know they are deemed impossible to help out because it would run risk to you, the victim and or anyone close to you.

An example would be, let's say this, the JW child abuse investigation in the UK, there is also another branch and or group outside the norm that also condones child abuse, and the very people who will tag JWs and everyone else on Child Abuse problems and accusations, will not bother with the unknown or underground groups who too are banking and enforcing child abuse.

Apparently the laws of men plays both sides.

As for violence, it has and will happen for these are among the things that is to take place prior to the conclusion of the end times, if you go back to my other responses to you, I have posted several information of said violence because of child abuse, and you should not be accepting violence because of one's knowing of some information for knowledge and information of something tends to beget a violent response to cause injury and or death - hate crimes and the like.

Other then that, again, Child Abuse is not unknown, nor is it a mystery, a shock or surprise and had magically hindered the inhabitants of the earth. Child Abuse in the days of Noah, to Moses, to now and onward and of course everyone knows this, whether you talk to them about it or not and to condemn a religion that is affected by Child Abuse only gives haters of God more fuel to mock and bash the scriptures and about Christianity.

1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I will probably stay 'on the outside' for the rest of this year. Things will happen for the Org, and things will happen for me. i left in January, I'll see what i know and feel next January.  

Seeing that the world has not ended and Jesus is nowhere to be found or God's Kingdom on the earth, Child Abuse, violence, famine, earthquakes and natural disasters, murder, rape, homosexuality, war, shadow governments and their actions, Anti-Christ, bad influence and associations, people seeking justice that can not be achieved by man, man driving other men into graves, sadness and crying, mourning, death, etc. will continue as it did in the past and will always continue until the appointed time, as a Christian it is not rocket science to know this solid truth and fact in regards to Scripture regarding the imperfections of the flesh, of man.

What should be your concern is enduring and be in the right for your actions because anyone at any given time can lose their faith and or salvation, hence why it is important to take into account of what Jude 3 says about maintaining faith being a hard fight.

All of us here agree with you on Child Abuse problems and the fact that it is happening to the Jehovah's Witnesses, but at the same time, it is necessary to be wise on the issue at hand and not be subjected to how others are doing things and who are in the wrong for going about a problem, by trying to literal destroy a faith just to stop Child Abuse - not realizing the Child Abuse is happening around the globe in religious and non-religious institutions.

In the end,it will not stop people from joining the JWs because what matters to them is what is to come in the future when Jesus Christ returns and will not stumble in this information of which the bible tells us.

44 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

That’s where we differ. I have been personally challenged by demonic entities, and I also know the subtle term for an agent. Being on the WRONG PATH! Does not excuse, make, to be Satan’s puppet or chew toy!

 

But it’s good you see the upside in people, even though the deception is very obvious! That’s the difference between what you are referring to Satan worshippers, cults versus being used by Satan. It's not that hard to see through people. Especially those calling themselves Christian.

 

Same, but there is a group in particular that cannot be challenge, reasoned with or given the gospel to because it is a high risk of death and or risk of being killed, and far too great for even the Jehovah's Witnesses (for any JW, any faith for that matter, of those areas speak of what this vile group is and warn people on being careful) - for people can and will be victim to such. The influence and or power is deemed literal and real, especially in parts of Africa, and areas in the Caribbean like Cuba, Haiti, Jamaica, Dominican Republic, etc, possibly surpassing even that of Satanist in the US. In addition to that, I remember speaking to a church youth group who had quite the frightening night in one area, and they deem themselves very lucky to be alive, but still haunted of what they had witnessed, for as they put it, on one side there is God and all that is good, and on the other side of the spectrum there is evil and darkness, which just happens to be literal for them that night.

Other groups (they are basically connected to each other by companies, banks and families, etc), slightly differ from the one mentioned above because literal outlandish things they cannot do, however, these groups and entities of Babylon the Great literally believe that if they please demons, they will be rewarded, if they please Satan the Devil, they will be given power and control, this includes child sacrifice, in the realm of Child Abuse that even Law and authorities will not attack so often because they play a role in this too even protect such persons and left the children for dead, there was a video in this regard but it was taken down about a year ago, for they played their cards by using companies and powerful men, and have spread into the inhabitants across the globe, which to some seem like crazy talk, but it is the reality.

That being said, Political Powers coupled with religious Evangelicals that support them (example, their support in Kurds who in turn handed Christians over to Terrorists) are real agents that are a threat to the good Christian people. But people tend to not pay attention to this stuff like I have and a few handful of others, an example would be with what just took place recently with the US and Saudi Arabia - which is indeed fact and true of the information that is present.

It is one of the reasons Witness was in error in his past post about CTR and or lacking understanding of what is true and what is false, for these groups today target JWs still, and other Christians outside of the mainstream and not be noticed at all. With that in mind, I advise people to be careful, for a blind person can easily be in subjection to what is unknown.

For these guys can't be be recognized at all by anyone unless you put two and two together with what is true.

Scary to those who are new to these things, vigilant is the one who is aware of what it is and what is to take place.

7 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

SM wanted an example of the GB changing meaning of scripture, but you Tom will know of some I'm sure. 1. the meaning of the scripture. 'This generation will not pass away' .. 2. the meaning of the scripture concerning 'the Superior Authorities'.  That is just two from memory.

Are you sure about that regarding the generating passing away being incorrect on their part? There are many, many people who understands that including the position and or condition of co-ruling persons chosen as priests and or selected for priesthood. JWs refer to these persons as Anointed ones, other Christians refer to this group as those chosen for Priesthood, the Chosen Ones to rule with Christ, or simply persons selected from Tribes, etc. The only group that is recognized for changing this generation thing slightly is the Black Israelites, and obviously for them, it will include a sole race and or tribe of people that are selected when the position of priesthood in the Messianic Kingdom is of those who are literally sacrificing themselves in Spirit in order to serve God no matter what.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I've just found this so thought i would add it here :-

"WHAT ABOUT THE NUMBER OF THOSE PARTAKING AT THE MEMORIAL? In recent years, we have seen an increase in the number of those partaking at the Memorial of Christ’s death. That trend contrasts with the decrease in the number of partakers that we saw for many decades. Should this increase trouble us? No. Let us consider some key factors to keep in mind. “Jehovah knows those who belong to him.” (2 Tim. 2:19) Those taking the count at the Memorial cannot judge who truly have the heavenly hope. The number of partakers includes those who mistakenly think that they are anointed. Some who at one point started to partake of the emblems later stopped. Others may have mental or emotional problems that lead them to believe that they will rule with Christ in heaven. Therefore, the number of partakers does not accurately indicate the number of anointed ones left on earth." Watchtower 2016 Jan study ed page 25 & page 26

"Memorial partakers. This is the number of baptized individuals who partake of the emblems at the Memorial worldwide. Does this total represent the number of anointed ones on earth? Not necessarily. A number of factors — including past religious beliefs or even mental or emotional imbalance — might cause some to assume mistakenly that they have the heavenly calling. We thus have no way of knowing the exact number of anointed ones on earth; nor do we need to know." Watchtower 2011 Aug 15 p.22

With this information, one has to consider how the history of the Memorial/Passover in general memorial. For the most part, not all of them are identical, slightly different - in the end, regardless, the Passover has to be respected as well as anyone proven to be in a position of Priesthood, which is very very VERY important. And this is true about those curious of taking embalms or in other religions, taking of the chametz and the like, this is why in some events when there is a gathering - some who know of people who.

In the end, no mistakes can be made, no false calling of Priesthood can be made, no wrongdoing can be made because on a day like that one should not be fooling around for the Passover is no joke - people of today's society will go as far as to mock the event, even disrupt and or interrupting a Passover, such vile unrepentant persons and their accomplices will stand in front of the White Throne and be judged.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

@TrueTomHarley Matthew 16 v 22 & 23.  At this Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, saying: “Be kind to yourself, Lord; you will not have this happen to you at all.”v ²³  But turning his back, he said to Peter: “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me, because you think, not God’s thoughts, but those of men.”

What was Jesus calling Peter here ?  Anyone can be a servant of the devil even if they have the right intentions as it seemed Peter did here. The devil will use anyone or anything for his purpose. So don't take it so personally. 

You have to be more in depth when explaining that, for verses like that can make and easily blind a Christian when they do not understand it.

Jesus was not identifying Peter with Satan the Devil but was referring to him as a resister - meaning of the Hebrew expression "sa·tan". Jesus may have posed that Peter, by his action on this occasion, had allowed himself to be influenced by Satan - denial of Jesus.

Read it here: https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/satan/

As well as take a good look at the word "Stumbling (Stumbling Block), which in Greek is σκάνδαλον: http://biblehub.com/greek/4625.htm

Secondary: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stumbling_block

The Greek word skandalon (σκάνδαλον), translates to stumbling block, usually refer to also a trap, in addition to other words in the Strong's - and we all know what a trap is (also do not confuse the word for its verb counterpart, Skandalizo - σκανδαλίζω). By extension, it came to refer to any impediment that would cause one to fall down, in this case, to stumble (stumbling block). In a sense, it refers to an action that leads a one to follow a path that is improper, to stumble, in this case, to fall into sin. the verb counterpart roughly translates make/cause to stumble, and is often rendered as become and or becoming a snare; cause to sin.

8 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Now, will you admit that some Elders are so upset with the Org that they are actually going against the Org and they are putting documents / letters up online for the public to read. I would compare this to the people of the Nation of Israel who were born Jews, but they chose to turn against the Jewish way of life and become Christians. They did not forsake God did they ? They allowed their God given conscience to guide them in the right direction. So it is for me, I haven't forsaken God or Jesus Christ, but in this day and age it's difficult to know the right direction. 

The Jews were always Jews and yes they became Christians, but they never turned away from the laws they were born into, in a sense, there were good Jews and bad ones, for you have to remember, there were Jews that followed Jesus and adhere to his teachings about God. In Paul's against, some Christians were indeed against him to the point he had to excommunicate them for messing around in the temple and or the congregation.

But on about Jehovah's Witnesses, this is the case with all religions, for if someone does not like what a religion is doing in terms of how they operate, they will "leak" information of said religion in an attempt to sully them. This is on the grounds of an attempt of killing a faith and or denomination. At times, even with the so called leaked information, they mix it with conspiracy and when you give in to conspiracy and added falsehood to what is leak it will cause influence, and influence injuries and or gets people kill and a few close calls. Do not know if you are aware of the JW that was stabbed to death and the people of UK are blaming this hate crime those who influence it, as do most Hate Crimes in the United Kingdom originates off the information and words of those on the internet.

Such is not difficult, you are a Christian, yes? In this day and age nothing should be questioned and or marked as difficult if you have a lifestyle of a Christian based on scripture.

8 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Now coming back to, what i know I know.  Before I left the Org, I have been in a brother's house talking about things and he has said to me, 'This is between you and me. Don't tell the elders'. Brothers and sisters are honestly frightened of the Elders. Bros and sis are frightened of being disfellowshipped because it is their whole life, their only friends, it's all they have in life. And when a person gets disfellowshipped they are left with nothing. i think that is disgusting. That people should be so frightened of men, because of the 'power' those men hold over people. But you Tom seem to love it. 

No one likes to be excommunicated regardless of which faith they follow, then again, you taking the words of those who obviously do not like the faith. I can give several examples of a Muslim, of a Jew, and a lot of examples of a JW.

Since this is the case, this JW Christian was excommunicated 2 times, even when she is unable to speak to the members of the church, she attends anyways but at the same time was embarrassed of her actions, her first excommunications was due to her messing around with a guy that was a bit too close, and thus sexual relations happen and she was pregnant. She stated when there were gatherings of bible study, she sat in the back, knowing that her actions reap such a consequence, especially that of her family for since she was African, not Black African American, she was bounded by culture, and pregnancy with someone who is not well known to a family, in this case, the JW church will indeed cause shunning. Prior to her being part of the JW faith again, family and friends still supported her and came around when the girl was showing that she wants to come back and eventually she did, as for her child, she now attends the church with her mother.

The second excommunication was when the guy came around again, another pregnancy of course, which lead to her son being born. Her family, who now knew who this man was lectured the man, Jamaican guy, it is unclear of what took place after that when when seems later down the road she ends up marrying that man, and the girl herself was a JW again and this time having 2 children, who are JWs, as for the Jamaican man, ironically, this guy was a God fearing soul who didn't know much about JWs, ended up going to English JW church instead of an African one, of which he said to have gone to from time to time, mind you, this was about a decade ago, the excommunications took place a few years apart.

This event of which I speak of took place in Maryland, US at the time, I was living with a friend's family after they lost their relatives in Educador, and since we were close we remain with them just to help them get back on their feet again. That JW girl is a close friend of that family too. As for the girl herself, she is still a JW, goes to both African and English churches with her husband and 2 children, she didn't fear the elders, no, but she, like the others, want to be in the right with God the Father - for even the excommunicated will not stoop down into a warpath against a faith just because they had been kicked out, they still respect the people, the faith and God the Father and if they are in position to defend a group they are kicked out of, they will, hence why I mentioned the 3 individuals who took issue with JW opponents who appeared at Warwick and caused a church disruption in a Passaic County JW church, which didn't sit well with the community of Passaic and Orange County.

Other then that it was not the elders she feared, it was her position with God. Now let's say if this woman was in an American Church that didn't really teach about God, her actions would openly be accepted no matter what without some form of punishment, but obviously they would cause her family to be against the church due to African culture and way of life, which will cause the church to condemn the family of the girl as being servants of Satan, and with that in min you know how things would go for it seems mainstream Christians are open to about everything, even pro-abortion if they really want to gain some converts.

That being said, I know a great deal of JWs young and old, several of which who had been excommunicated and had return, others who didn't because they knew they had problems and wanted to get their head straighten out first, but they are not always shunned by their families because they do not speak ill of the faith and or of God, and ironically such persons do defend Jehovah's Witnesses even though they are excommunicated and they made their stories known but it is snuffed out and removed by JW opponents sadly.

In the end, it isn't not about fear of men who are as Shepherds, it is about one's position with God.

8 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And I think you know what I'm saying about the 'so and so is no longer a Jehovah's Witness' thing. it is a way of telling the whole congregation not to talk to that one. Whereas the Bible gives examples / reasons for the ones that should be avoided. By not saying a person  'left the Org of their own choice' , or 'was disfellowshipped', the GB are deliberately telling the congregation not to talk to anyone that has left the Organisation. However, I don't think that is what the scripture means. Hence i say misuse of scripture.

Anyway the sun is shining here and i will go into our garden and give thanks to God for His creation. I hope you all have a pleasant day. i wish you no harm. As i keep saying, we are all individuals and all have our own opinions. So be it. Only time will tell right from wrong.  

Well it was quite evident in what you posted, you weren't a fan of nor was the other guy, who can somehow predict how others feel about church leaders right off the bat if he was not the type of guy to mingle well with JWs despite being one, unless you are leaving out details.

The bible speaks of those to avoid yes, and it also speaks of those who talk ill of the faith of a Christian and or accursed the teachings (false prophets). But you may need to be careful of contradicting what you say here, an example would be about the Watchtower article you posted about Theocratic War Strategy aka Spiritual Warfare, ignoring the fact that such Spiritual Warfare, which is a just thing to do when defending the faith and service to God, was done by even servants of the God of Israel in the past, including in ancient Bible days, for such actions have been done mostly by women who were indeed knowing of who the God of Israel is. For if we are to deem JWs are lairs, then it would be safe for someone to attack the bible and say David lied, Jonathan lied, Rahab lied, Jeal lied, etc. which again brings up Christian Civil Disobedience of which both Paul and Peter made mention of - or perhaps they too are lairs in what they had said and should be avoided.

Also there was no misuse of scripture in this regards, the JW church can say or not say if one leaves the faith, which is the case with any faith for that matter. At times, the person in question who wants to resign and says he or she wants to resign, the church leaders will make mention of so and so has left. At times, they let the people know several gatherings later when information of said person is frozen in case they return. Excommunications however, are usually stated the following gathering.

That being said, as a Christian, you have to take into account Paul's action and the question of punishment for disobedience in terms of church purity and holiness. The Paul one may be easy, but the second one is deemed far complex by some, this is why Atheist will utter this question to a Christian to throw them off balance: How can you have free will if it's punishment for disobedience? It is one of those Christians met to throw a not so biblical strict Christian off and cause them, in this sense, to stumble.

No worries, John, but in the end, opinion does not override scripture and what is true, just remember that.

1 hour ago, AllenSmith said:

That isn’t necessarily factual. Butler can be considered an agent of Satan’s Works. Matthew 13:38 It would be no different than those that go against Christ teachings, 2 Corinthians 11:15, especially those that cause strife and division within God’s people. Romans 16:17, Philippians 3:2

This is something that has alluded professed Christians here to think they can apply scripture on the one hand, and defy it in the other. 1 Corinthians 1:10-13

Just because the subject matter is an impassioned human condition, doesn’t absolve anyone from breaking God’s commands. Ephesians 2:1-3

Therefore, WHO really do you need to thank for such division, here, if NOT those that started this forum over 5 years ago? In order to sully the Watchtower with their personal views and complaints.

I do not believe John Butler is an agent and or servant of Satan, for I have truly seen people who are pawns of Satan and have challenged them before, nor do I believe Witness is either - for these two are quite far from it and real servants of Satan are very obvious, an example would be the Cemetery incident with Christians vs Satanist  a Minnesota, the abortion protesting, and the Black Mass temples to mock Christians. However, both of them are simply on the wrong path and going about the situation the wrong way, one of them even has accepted and or given himself up to the likes of conspiracy while at the same time believes that the Father and the Son would want that.

Sadly, a good man or a good woman may think they are in the right, but the tragedy is, they do not see what is going on behind the blindfold they have on their faces and others who see them will only see that their works is not good and not smart. 

41 minutes ago, Vic Vomidog said:

that is just the way I like it, parrot fashion.

Sadly, there is no crackers or chips for polly here.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

People outside the faith know only because victims have now made it known, and hence the investigations Earthwide. But the names of the pedophiles and their locations are not known, not even to the brothers and sisters that have children in the congregations. Hence i say prdophiles are being protected and hidden. And brothers and sisters that serve the Org do not look into these things, so they do not know. Nor do they know of the danger they may face on the ministry or at the hall, because the Elders do not make any of this known. If i had spoken about it in the Kingdom Hall when I was a brother,  I would have been disfellowshipped for 'causing a division in the congregation'... This is how they keep things quiet, because brothers and sisters are frightened to talk about anything...  You have to be there in person to fully understand how frightened the congregation members are of the Elders. There are so many things that you just cannot talk about. And the meetings are fully controlled. the Watchtower Study is controlled, so that brothers and sisters only answer the question put in the paragraphs. And no one is allowed to ask question, it's just parrot fashion, read a paragraph then give correct answers. Then move on, next paragraph.... 

No, people outside the faith do know and will always know. Child Abuse isn't some mysterious thing that just happens to be a shock, a surprise that just happens to be taking place in religion, for this has been going on since the days of our 3rd to 4th century church fathers into the 14th and 15th century to now, and Child Abuse is going to continue until the conclusion of the end times and tribulations. And I already made mention of Child Abuse among the Jehovah's Witnesses as well as areas in the world where it does not occur and or rarely does happen within the faith, a few posts ago I said it and I will not repeat myself, in addition to that, Jehovah's Witness youth tend to be subjected to kidnapping and or beheading because of their faith and they'll always gun for the young ones as potential targets, but never has anyone speak of this, if they have it is rare, but Child Abuse tends to happen in the US, the UK and parts of the EU, little to no child abuse takes place in areas like South Korea and or Japan because of an ancient Asian Laws coupled with modern day laws and regulations, I can go on about the Middle East and or the Congo, etc, but it has already been said - for if the Child Abuse among them is indeed earthwide as you claim, the areas I mentioned before would have been affected also to a great deal and will be high, Child Abuse is all over the globe yes, but among groups and other institutions it tends to happen in a few places in the world and done so by specific persons be it a pedophile, a violent person or a trafficker and as I said, child can abuse another child too, which is indeed a real and sad thing. But even with that information, even JW opponents or those that talk ill of the faith attack non-JWs of the facts.

No, pedophiles are not being protected, they're only protected if said religious group is part of the underground world and affiliates themselves with people who can clean up traces, empty out the cookie jar if you will, even if it means taking out the victim and or witnesses for good (murder), which was the case in Lithuania's child abuse controversy that lead to several deaths and a suicide. Jehovah's Witnesses do look into Child Abuse issues for if they speak on the matter and put it in their articles then they'll know, perhaps not all of them, but those who are use to reading news online, and even if they speak their peace, they are attacked relentlessly, even non-JWs who know the laws of the land are also attacked, for JW opponents tend to keep everything one sided and will say pedophilia is hidden when an obvious simpleton can figure out Child Abuse is global and not subjected to a single group, and no one will side with those that want to "kill a religion" just to have it their way. Men and Women across the global are intelligent and smart, and as I said it before, they are smart enough to know how to deal with and view Child Abuse happening all over the place, even inside religions. I doubt you would be excommunicated for speaking about it. The only reason why not many are comfortable about speaking of Child Abuse is address in the a great multitude of PSA for Child Abuse (it is not a comfortable subject to just randomly talk about it to a bunch of people out of the blue), it is not about causing division, it is about being smart when to talk about and when to speak your mind about. If you wanted to get your message across, you could have started off a conversation with one or two people, then get into the subject of Child Abuse right then and there if it is raised, for if an African JW church can speak on these issues no problem or a Hispanic one by doing it the right way, so can you. In today's society, you have to be wise of your words to others and when to use such words and or expressing an issue or a problem to others. Other then that, I said this because I deal with children also who have some issues and adult friends of those children, they will not like talking about Child Abuse unless you are cool with them or sit down and speak with them and possibly when the subject is brought up, then you speak of the matter.

And no, JWs are not afraid to talk about anything (opponents tend to target and confront newbie/novice JWs of the faith, but back down when one knows their bible well), but they recognize when it is a smart way to speak of a subject and when, there are really tough JWs to talk to, one of them being The Z man who is like a zen master in scripture and theology who occasionally pops up on the Soulja of God and Jason A channels and is a contributor to helping out in child kidnappings. I had visited a lot of other religious groups within the past decade and even the JW ones, I went to their church, an African one, Swahili to be specific, I went to a Spanish one, a Caribbean one, Korean and even English, none of them are scare nor is anyone of them in fear - for if they have a fear, they fear God, as it is written to be God fearing as the bible says and they do ask question, of course interfaith based questions will not sit well with them, for regardless of religion, interfaith questions tend to get you kicked out for it is a sign you have chosen a different faith, went on on your own or just simply do not want to attend the church anymore, an example is like saying you accept Christ and consider Jesus God, obviously that will not sit well with JWs.

In the Unitarian faith if you speak of Jesus as God or talk about Trinity Doctrine, it will most definitely get you excommunicated, or if bringing up questions that goes against what is true.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Jesus himself was very blunt and to the point when he noted those that were trying to twist things and use lies and false ideas. Sometimes there is no other way, you just have to tell someone that you can see 'where they are coming from'. 

He also wants us to respect, be mild and humble our fellow man. Tom never lied about anything for what he said about ARC and onward is indeed true, especially when he spoke of Internal Disciplinary methods of churches, which is pretty much internal investigation. He brought up prevention rates of child abuse, something people do care about as well as the issue, so thinking of him as a servant of the devil when the man has not uttered a lie in discussion with you, is lacking and shows you are not caring of any word he says - there is a bible verse for that for not listening to someone. In addition to that it is already seen as to where he is coming from, for this mentioning of solidifying facts is true, to be in denial of what is true only results in the opponent in the discussion butchering Christ's words and in turn, will use scripture for the wrong reasons and or a verse or two that is unrelated to what is being spoken.

For let's say if Tom was lying, for if he was in the wrong, real information would break down every pillar he builds in an instant to what he is pushing out in his posts - but in this case there was no fault on his part, no error or falsehood, therefore, a strong statement by calling him a servant of the devil has no foundation to hold itself.

The bible speaks of false accusations, all in all to repay such a reaction to a man who has not committed any wrong for speaking for what is true, is not something that pleases God, regardless of what the subject is about, for your resolve would have made sense if Tom was lying - which is not the case here.

That being said, be in harmony with the Christ and within God if someone is in the right.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

JW's Governing Body make up the rules and change them when it suits, by misusing scriptures. Elders in turn act like robotic servants of the Governing Body. There is no love shown, no empathy. This has been made so clear by the victims of Child Abuse Earthwide and by people that have been shunned for no good reason. And now i fall into the latter catagory. Shunned by brothers and sisters, probably because they think i was disfellowshipped, as they don't tell people when they say ' John Butler is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses'. Members of the congregation have no idea if i was disfellowshipped or if I left of my own choice. Though i am very disappointed by those i told prior to leaving, that they too should shun me. But once again fear of man, fear of the elders, fear of 'getting into trouble' if they talk to me.. It's very sad.

Hard-pressed Bible Restorationist do not make up their own rules and or regulations, if they did change or misuse scripture, you need to give an example, because there is many facts, resources and information that proves otherwise when regarding any Christian faith that derive from that Restorationist Era, this includes JWs. Elders and Deacons tend to be the boring folk, but what is embedded in them is their faith, and their love of God and the teachings, as well as following the example of Jesus, one of these examples is expressing qualities of both God the Father and Jesus Christ, which early Christians practice to life by as a Christian lifestyle and today only a few Christian minorities practice this, JWs are among the Christian minorities outside of the mainstream. Church leaders of the faith act as Shepherds to a Flock, something of which Jesus stated in John 10:16: And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd (also see Ezekiel 34:23, 37:24, Luke 12:32 and 1 Peter 5:4). For a Shepherd who tends to his flock will show love to it, in this case, it applies to Christians of a professed faith too. An example I can give is I had seen JWs and among all faiths I visited at some point, the Swahili one is among many that expressed a great deal of love to one another because they are not only bind by faith, but by their culture, no elder and or churchgoer acted as robots compared to the American  Mega Church I had gone to in the past. That being said, each church is different by their culture and their chemistry with one another, at times it varies, but it is far more evident in the non-american churches, English ones tend to be the common folk and average in their love for one another while others tend to go above and beyond.

Again, Child Abuse among the group is focused in the US, the UK and some EU countries and or EU jointed ones, there was no issue with Arabian JWs, none with Asian ones, or the Congo ones, etc. For if the problem was indeed Earthwide, all those areas would have been affected, but instead we have political factions, kidnappers, extremist who target the faith for they cannot and will not fight back. Victims of JW child abuse will speak up, and have done so, but like every other religion, it won't stop newcomers to the faith, for what they tend to be more focused on is the belief and the teaching of scripture. As for Shunning, even JW opponents stated that it is indeed biblical, but they also add that they can choose to ignore that scripture, the same is said about mainstream Christians who cherry pick the Scriptures, it is one of the reasons why it is said JWs tend to follow the bible with a great deal of strictness.

They do tell their members, and they tell them if they are excommunicated, they also say if you are inactive or a drifter, as they say. But seeing as how you represent in opposition to the faith despite not hating them, it is enough for them to accept it as excommunication. You are lucky that JWs do not practice He'rem, which is far worse.

And again, if is not men they fear. For if you want shunning, excommunication and or anything pertaining to in-faith and interfaith religious laws being abolish, you can do what some mainstream Christians have done for some time now, pointing to Paul as an Antichrist in his teachings to Christians. There are JWs who have been excommunicated but not shun because they do not bash the faith of which they were apart of, nor reaching the position of Apostasy. That being said, it won't stop them from allowing you to come in and sit in their meetings, while He'rem, you are forced out, physical if need be.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Doing anything on the Sabbath was wrong according to the Mosaic Law and punishable, but Jesus said there were times when doing good would override that Law. But the JW Governing Body do not seem to recognise the principle behind that, hence they show no mercy or love.

Man's Law cannot override God's Law, something of which the JWs will attempt to prevent from happening to them and has prove to be a challenge because of Child Abuse, again, Civil Disobedience, which was a practice by Paul and a number of others in both the Old and New Testament. I already made mention of several women of the Bible, as well as the mentioning King David and his pal, Jonathan.

The sad truth is if a law, rule and or policy is bible based, attempting to  change it and or ignore it goes against what God said, and it goes against what Jesus said, I believe I mentioned this already too.

As for picking and using what fits their doctrine, they are basically in the right - for should they abolish any rule they have or ignore it or just brush over it, they break scripture, in a sense, it is like breaking what is written and continue to attempt to profess your faith as a Christian- which God can clearly see such persons are kidding themselves.

In the end, everyone knows about the child abuse going on in the JW church, but, they will not be on the same warpath you are on against JWs or their leaders, and there has been prove of that, especially by those who understand the rules the JWs are under on the religious side of things, an they also understand the laws of a state and or country, and how things are handled and will have to fight against JW opponents if they have to, which has been happening for sometime now, and in regards to Russia, any JW opposition made there, a rebellion of people will defend JWs, even non-orthodoxy Christians will defend them.

You do not have to agree with JWs, but you should be wise enough to note be a messenger of their opponents who will want to destroy Christianity just to take down JWs, for it has been talked about ever since Christianity is declining. As for me, I know Child Abuse, I know how kids feel, but never I would subjected myself to the path you are on because I am a man of God and I know what is going on and I know how to response to a situation, and again, smarter ways to deal with Child Abuse, which is pure fact that most in the US or the UK do not even consider at times expect the very persons who fight against Child Abuse the problem not people affected by it.

29 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

@TrueTomHarley I'll go further and repeat, i think you are a servant of the devil. Protecting pedophiles within the JW org.  Hating anyone that dares to question the GB. Twisting every comment made by genuine people on here. Good bye Tom. 

If someone posts something that is true it does not automatically or allude to him or her being a servant of the Devil - claims and assumptions of someone results in 11 verses in this regard that targets the accuser of the accused, for if you respect God's word you have to be careful on that.

No one is questioning anyone for if the JWs have a set of rules and religious laws that they follow, there is a how and why as to they adhere to such which nearly equals to Nazareth Vow and breaking of such when a conclusion has not been met to free one of this vow, disqualifies them of God's favor, a position a JW or any Christian do not want to be in. We know Paul is no lair and what he affirms is true and fact, therefore it has to be respected at all times.

That being said, it has already been spoken about child abuse happening to everyone, including the Jehovah's Witnesses, to say they hide pedophiles when people outside of the faith know of what is going on is a bit misleading, so to speak, not to mention people are indeed paying attention to the highs and lows that changes over time regarding child abuse, violence and the like.

As for those verses, I will not post them here for they are that impactful when it comes to accusing someone of something when he or she speaks truth - God's word is important and adhering to it at all cost should be of high importance to you.

All in all, the issue of child abuse, the statistics, the spread of child abuse, the actions of abusers, etc. is and will always be something that people will care about because the youth is affected and as a Christian, all of us know God's sees a person's heart.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Well as far as I can tell the Governing Body were getting worried in 1997 about the amount of Child Abuse within the USA part of the JW Org. So the Governing Body sent out letters to all the Elders of congregations in the USA. One such letter instructed the Elders to send all reports / accusations about Child Abuse past and present, to Brooklyn HQ. It was to be an ongoing instruction right up to this day. Hence from 1997 to 2017 = 20 years worth of documents concerning Child Abuse within the JW Org USA.

Now the point is, why did the GB want all this info ? Was it as Tom says, to try to keep the Org clean, or, was it to be able to hide all the info in one place ? 

In the 1990s Child Abuse had been on the rise in the US with most abusers tend to continue the trend of getting away with their crimes and it had increased within the realm of religion thus internal investigation by such groups. Data is usually collected if need be so it is kept in file, in some situations for some people, little information is all that is needed to be kept on file if necessary, others usually hold on to information for a temporary amount of time based on their system, however, if or if not such information exist and or had ceased,the victim of the abuse can and will have their say on the matter - as living proof to speak on what abuse they had suffered.

But it is no surprise anyone would be startled if it did happen to them, for the total number of cases of child abuse in the U.S. from 1990 to 2010 was surged to a ridiculous amount, the only difference from then and now is that we have better systems and networks so information can be brought forth quite easily, but anything before the 1990s tend to be somewhat of a stretch for people tend to be more reliant on the word of the victim should the abuser's location and or status be unknown and or if said abuse had perish -  died.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/203816/number-of-child-abuse-cases-in-the-us/

The other link is based on race, I mentioned race card before and by the majority in today's world, this has been proven to be true and fact:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/418475/number-of-perpetrators-in-child-abuse-cases-in-the-us-by-race-ethnicity/

Other: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK201120/

Perhaps as all religious heads go, they gather the information big and or small, or whatever they can get from the victim on the matter either to be used to root out abuse, to use said information to see how they can determine the signs of abuse and teach if this or that happens, what to do, and the like. In my case, all Unitarian denominations are informed to send any known information to either the heads of the church of church leaders of the faith, it is no different from others.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The next question is, Why didn't the Governing Body follow the instruction from God as written in Romans 13 v 1 through 7. That scripture starts off

I believe I mention this regarding Paul, and that God's law in the bible cannot be broken and or changed. Christians will, no matter the denominations and or faith, will be subjected to Civil Disobedience just as Paul was, and regarding what Peter had said - only should the law of the land conflict with worship of God, the Bible, Bible Principles, etc., hence the title of Romans 13, Submission to Governing Authorities. It is 100% true all Christians must obey the law, but should the law try to hinder anything spiritual, you will most likely see a reaction.

Given that it was Paul who wrote the Epistles to the Romans, one can easily see what anything pertaining to government and or authorities points to with what took place in Paul's life and what Peter wrote, which mirrors that of what was done in the Hebrew Old Testament.

All in all, if the JWs technically submitted a Nazarite Vow in terms of following scripture, such a thing cannot be broken, or any Christians who is on the same boat.

As for Romans 13:1-7 is alludes to the following: Subjection to the authorities (1-7) paying of taxes (6, 7).

So it is unlikely they are ignoring scripture, if the group is deemed Bible Strict by the majority.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Now here is a bit of interesting information which appears to be true, but take it as you will.  

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2428460-theocratic-warfare-lg.html

May 1st, 1957. Watchtower.   Use Theocratic War Strategy 

Spiritual Warfare (the same thing as what the JWs call it, Theocratic Warfare/Strategy). It is a practice that is used by Evangelizing Christians regarding the preaching and teaching of the gospel, especially if met with opposition that will attempt to halt and or cease any following of Jesus' examples of teaching about God.

As defined (quote): Spiritual warfare is the Christian concept of fighting against the work of preternatural evil forces. It is based on the biblical verification and observance of evil spirits, or demons, which intervene in human affairs in various ways, for their own agendas. Various Christian groups have adopted practices to repel such forces, as based on their doctrine of Christian demonology. Prayer is a common form of spiritual warfare among Christians. Other practices may include exorcism, the laying on of hands, fasting, and anointing with oil.

Read here to understand about what it truly is: https://www.biblestudytools.com/bible-study/topical-studies/spiritual-warfare-lesson-1-understanding-the-battle-11554631.html

Other examples: https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1211-spiritual-warfare-is-real-difficult-and-dangerous

Other then that, only few denominations outside of mainstream Christianity will go on this route should their faith be subjected to the laws of the land trying to alter God's Laws. That 1957 Watchtower you posted is no different from tactics and strategies used by Christians over the decades when met with some form of Bible breaking persecution, some who end up in prison and or is killed by those who are not of God.

That the practice of which the Jehovah's Witnesses have done for years, Theocratic War Strategy, basically Spiritual Warfare, is that (quote): Jehovah's Witnesses believe they are engaged in a "spiritual, theocratic warfare" against false teachings and wicked spirit forces they say try to impede them in their preaching work. Where their religious beliefs have been in conflict with national laws or other authorities—particularly in countries where their work is banned—they have advocated the use of "theocratic war strategy" to protect their interests, by hiding the truth from God's "enemies",being evasive, or withholding truthful or incriminating information.The Watchtower told Witnesses: "It is proper to cover over our arrangements for the work that God commands us to do. If the wolfish foes draw wrong conclusions from our maneuvers to outwit them, no harm has been done to them by the harmless sheep, innocent in their motives as doves."

Plus it is no different in the case of several examples in the bible, one that is known by everyone, Ra'hab, a prostitute in Jericho who had assisted 2 spies that were sent by Joshua, the Son of Nun, to spy out the city. We all know how they passage played our and what Ra'hab's view of God the Father is, which was a positive on, and she hid the men and belittled the guards who were sent by the King to seek out the Israelite men after receiving word of them, and among the people who were interrogated was Ra'hab.

In Ephesians 6:13–18, the spiritual armor God gives us is spoken of here. Christians are to stand firm with the belt of truth, the breastplate of righteousness, the gospel of peace, the shield of faith, the helmet of salvation, the sword of the Spirit, and by praying in the Spirit.

These pieces of spiritual armor represent in spiritual warfare is to know the truth, believe the truth, and speak the truth as well as defend it and prevent anyone from preventing you of this truth. We are to take in the fact that we are declared righteous because of Christ’s sacrifice for us. We are to proclaim the gospel no matter how much resistance we face from opponents of the faith, as well as the la of the land that attempts to break scripture and or worship of God - resulting in Civil Disobedience.

We are not to waver in our faith, we are to keep trusting God’s promises no matter how strongly we are attacked, how hard we are hit, be it if injured and or killed, nothing or no one would stop a Christian from professing their faith, even if it is by the hands of authorities. Our ultimate defense is the assurance we have of our salvation, an assurance that no spiritual force and or men of the world can take away. Our offensive weapon is the Word of God (as some call it, the Word of God is our Excalibur Sword) not our own opinions and feelings. And we are to pray in the power and will of the Holy Spirit.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

"So in times of spiritual warfare it is proper to misdirect  the enemy by hiding the truth". This article also leads people into the way of thinking that telling lies is OK if you are doing it to protect the Organisation. 

And in my opinion that is what the GB think, and also practice today. 

It didn't stop Christians today, it didn't stop Christians in the past, and it didn't stop those who believed in the one true God of Israel who has not changed and condemns the change of his Spoken Word or break anything pertaining of what his Son had done on earth.

But regarding that article, should, taking an example of that woman, should she have given herself up, it will not have ended well for her.

The key to successful spiritual warfare is finding the biblical balance and being in harmony with what is written in scripture. Paul instructs Christians to wage war against the sin in themselves (Romans 6 - Dead to Sin, Alive to God, Slaves to Righteousness) and warns us to oppose the schemes of the devil (Ephesians 6:10–18).

That being said, the account and or passage of Ra'hab can be found in Joshua 2:1-24, 6:1, 22-25, and Hebrews 11:31(other instances of spying found at Judges 1:22-26, 18:1-10, 14, 17, and 1 Samuel 26:4).

All in all, Ra'hab was declared righteous and is justified by Works which was indeed spiritual warfare in regards of defending the Israelite men from being captured and possibly execution by means of the King of Jericho and Ra'hab and her household would have also been killed if she had not done what she did.

other instances of Spiritual Warfare, for example, Jael, Deborah, Michal to name a few, David to Jonathan also.

In short, all Christians, specifically all outside of the mainstream Christianity, who are adhering to the Great Commission subject themselves to Spiritual Warfare, and since Jehovah's Witnesses are still Restorationist, it applies to them also regarding Spiritual Warfare and will continue for them until Jesus returns, as to anyone who is subjected to Spiritual Warfare and takes it seriously.

Christian Civil Disobedience regarding the Laws of the Land:

Quote

We believe the Scripture teaches that we are to submit to government even if that government does not function entirely (or even primarily) by biblical principles (Romans 13:1-7). That principle is explicit in Peter's message to servants (1 Peter 2:18-19), which directly follows his more general comments regarding government (1 Peter 2:13-17). And that epistle teaches the same thing over and over again in varied ways: Submit even if you suffer, because in doing so you identify with Christ and are blessed (cf. 1 Peter 2:21-24; 3:1-2; 4:12-14; 5:9-10).

There are times when we must obey God rather than men, but we believe that we should disobey the authorities only if they command us to do something directly against God's law (e.g. Acts 5:29 and its surrounding context).

That is a fine distinction, but it is precisely where the issue lies. If we say that Christians are only required to obey their government when it is functioning by scriptural principles, we then nullify the teaching of Romans 13:1-7 and 1 Peter 2:13-17 in just about any age of history-especially the time during which those passages were written! The Roman government was as corrupt and godless as any in history, and yet Paul and Peter told Christians to "live in subjection," "submit to every ordinance," and "honor the king."

So we believe that civil disobedience is justified only when government compels us to sin, or when there is no legal recourse for fighting injustice. The reason we draw the line there is simply because all the scriptural examples of civil disobedience fall squarely into those two situations. Any other kind of activism has no precedent in the Word of God and violates the spirit of Romans 13 and 1 Peter 2.

If you look this up regarding Christians and Law, you will see nearly the same thing for no Christian will cherry pick and break Religious Law in favor of Man's Law, there is always and will be a line that is drawn.

The only option you have is to work with the rules the group is following, you can't force them or entice them to change or alter what is written, regarding child abuse, it applies also and it makes sense to work with what they know and work with what they follow in terms of rules and regulations backed by scripture and religious procedures in all faiths that allows internal investigation to begin with.

The very reason stuff like this is known will not stop someone from joining the Jehovah's Witnesses or any group for that matter, people will continue to convert to JWs, people will continue to convert to Islam,people will continue to convert to Judaism, people will continue to convert to Catholicism, etc. In the end God knows who his people are be in in the organization or not, and he will not tolerate the actions of bad people or those contributing to infighting and anything such as conspiracy against his own Word.

And again, you can be a JW or not, there is a strict reason and a biblical one as to why some Christians do not talk of JWs as such and maintain neutrality, just as I am doing and thousands of others.

An example I will give, is that even Muslims know who JWs are, even though they do not agree with them on some Jesus' death and resurrection, and they tend to not mess around with JWs at all, instead, Muslims are always attacking Trinitarian doctrine in the UK's Speaker's Corner, which was talked about in the  Christian world of UK and the US, as the false doctrine being exposed by another faction of believers being the Muslims an instance would be on how on numerous occasions an anti-jw, anti-muslim, anti-unitarian, kjv-onlyist that goes by the name Bob The Builder is often defeated by such persons and has made a channel of his own to bash everyone and everything at Hyde Park.

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Could you elucidate on these statements?

3 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

That Jehovah's Witnesses do not vote, take sides in the realm of politics and will not submit to taking part in Russia's events of glorifying violence such as the Victory Day Parades held by Russia every year, for the Kremlin considers Jehovah's Witnesses as a threat the reasons why the French NGOs and Alexander along with the Russian Church all pitched in to get them banned by twisting that Yarovaya Law, therefore over the years, Russia controlled media will slander and attack JWs every chance they get. Ironically, the ban took place after both the Pope Francis visit and Cyrill's trip to Antarctica to, as he puts it, to receive "Spiritual Power", then came the mass protesting, the ban on JWs, the arrest of well over thousands of people, The Alexei Navanly Troop and the extremist finger pointing as well as the bible itself will make you a target and subjected to arrest should Russia police and or FSB take action against you. JW kids have been abused by other children, verbally, as well as professors in school because of their faith and the fact that they do not partake in political events in Russia or join the army, which explains the situation in Russian controls Crimea. JWs and suppose opponents of the Kremlin are being watched everyday, even stalked regardless of the age group, even if a crime is done to them and or a child is abuse by someone from the outside, the FSB will not really do much, by chance Russian police will react when information of violent abuse is reported, but nothing would be done.

The website that they track people with is using a device called FindFace which can literally find anyone within the Russian social media space, for the software itself makes Edward Snowden blush. such a thing can easily be abuse and has been used by creepy people on the internet who tend to use the power of that software to located people, specifically track down women. The FSB has taken hold of this software and used it again, exploited it to benefit themselves and the Kremlin, and had used it to hunt down protesters, Navanly Heroes, but, they had a separate site that track people of religious affiliations, specifically those outside of the Russian Orthodox Church such, including Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims, the Non-Orthodoxy, Hindis, in addition to tracking down Homosexuals, for if anyone caught by the FSB, especially in Chechnya, it will not end well for the person.

I manage to find one of the sites, this was was originally .ru, but they changed it and replaced it with the .com version, for the .ru ones can't be found anymore because it is either blocked or the address had been changed, but this is the idea of how they track people, posting their information to the public, and prior to the JW ban, the people listed on that site had been, well on the .ru versions, hunted down and dealt with.

http://jesuismaidan.com (the original .ru one does not exist anymore so the link is just but an example of its former self, the one that targets religion and homosexuals have had their address changed)

Of course a good idea made by very smart and intellegent minds, there will be those who will take said idea and turn it into a weapon:

 

Now in regards to not taking part in political and military service, youth of the JW faith are normally attacked verbally by peers and professors of a school, in addition to such increasing against them when it came to the events in Russia known as Victory Day Parades, as some called it, a day of glorifying violence and or military might – nationalism, as well:

The usual portrayal of JWs in Russia, other videos have been removed and or turned private while the ????? and ?????? 24 to name a few are several of Russian Kremlin controlled media outlets, but this is but an example of what I speak of in regards of slandering someone's faith – other than that the Duma has also made hundreds of new laws prior to the ban that blocks broadcasting of real news information, reasons why some people in Russia trust and are lucky to find the RFERL for they are independent media: 

 

Mixing of actual footage and false footage of JWs in Russia, done so by the hands of the Russian mainstream media: 

 

 

But yeah this is RFERL, among the many independents who actually speak truth on what is going on in Russia, despite parts of them being blocked by the Duma laws for some time now: https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-election-violations/29109634.html

 

But yeah, other then that, nearly anyone prior to the decision on the JWs were subjected to arrest and or branded as enticing hate and or extremism - sadly all part of the plan just so the Kremlin can continue to control and take power, Navalny being made a fool of despite him exposing the Kremlin and at this rate he will end up like Nemstov.

accused of extremism and being arrested applies to anyone, even children to be taken away for hours, days, perhaps months (could not find the original, again half these things are removed even the news articles):

 

For if Russia can get away with that, due to the child abuse situation in all faiths including JWs, others can do the same and get away with it sadly, an obvious instance would be comparing child abuse in the JW faith to the far dark and more sinister UK underground of child abuse ran by the people with big pockets in the United Kingdom.

15 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The enemies in Russia wanted to snuff us out quietly. The Governing Body did not permit that to happen. They made sure, if it was to be done, it would be done with huge publicity. It is like Paul saying  "This thing has not been done in a corner," and on that account confidently addressing honest hearted ones: "I know you believe."

The Russia ban issue is far deeper and more complex than one realizes, I brought this up before here, especially to Robert in one of the threads. What is a key element in all this is the recent election of Vladimir Putin, which was expected by some, as well as those who didn't like how Russia was going down a Soviet Era like path. At this point for Jehovah's Witnesses, it will not end well for them there, JW opponents think of the ban as a victory, but what they didn't realize is what went down 2014 and onward regarding the Kremlin, the Duma, and the Russian Church, and how, hellish things are going to get for the Russian people - which has already spawn conspiracy.

Just know that regarding the ban of JWs, other parities were also involved, an example would be France, specifically NGOs of France in combination with Alexander Dvorkin, Patriarch Cyrill, and a number of other key players among the Kremlin and the Duma, in addition to how the JWs have proven to be an inconvenience to the Kremlin weeks prior to the election.

Speaking about Child Abuse, it is also ironically as to how no one speaks of the child abuse done to JW children in Russia by opponents, but apparently no one bats an eye about it.

That being said, this is a reminder for me to delve back into the Russian part of media again, for now since Putin has been re-elected, there is bound to be new information.

 

Other then that, it is unlikely you would hear anyone talking about JW children being abused by people outside of their faith or how now they'll be treated, which is being talked about by Orthodoxy and Non-Orthodoxy Christians in Russia who didn't like what was done to the JWs.

In short, it will not be a good time for anyone who is not on the side of the Kremlin, the RoC and the Duma. I know JWs do not do politics, but these leaders will be somewhat of a obstacle for them in Russia - perhaps prove more of a threat to Americans also. If you can be jailed and marked as an extremist for making a joke, being a poet or playing Pokemon, it will only continue to get far worse from that, and it will get bad for the JWs. But seeing they pushed through the Soviet days, endurance is key for them, and surprisingly the hundreds of protesters who were taken down by the Kremlin notice who the JWs are and how they endured in those days.

13 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And for anyone else reading this, but not for Tom tom as he has decided in his own mind that I am wicked, but for those of you with open minds I tell you this. I left the JW Org because my conscience would not allow me to stay in it, due to my findings about the Child Abuse Earthwide within the Org... I am not anti JW Org, I am not anti religion, i am not a part of any protest group nor part of any anti religious group of any sort. I am an individual with my own mind and my own thoughts. I am looking for the truth from God, not from men.

I believed we talked on this before in one of your other posts and I understand your position after reading various comments from you, but child abuse among Jehovah's Witnesses is happening in several countries, I wouldn't say worldwide among them though, mostly in the European Countries rarely does it happen in countries and even if it did it is very very low, examples being Asian countries such as South Korea and or Japan due to the filial piety and child laws, the Congo and or parts of Africa, for it is known fact that African Christians tend not to do such stuff, especially if they are devoted to a Christian faith and profess it, Middle Eastern and or Syranic JWs, as well as those living in Tehran, Yemen, pretty much most of the Arabian Emirates of where they can be found, and they tend not to do anything regarding child abuse, however, Christians are subjected to their opponent's attacks, even in some cases children of a Christian family end up getting kidnapped and auction off as a bride and or sex slave and is subjected to vile forms of abuse known to man. Some JWs, by law can be targeted to be killed and or beheaded in some cases, therefore, not a whole lot of preaching can be done in a malevolent Islamic community.

The reality is the child abuse epidemic that also affected the Jehovah's Witnesses is more centered in areas like the UK, Australia, and the US, for those, and evidently it is a problem, and child abuse when combined with all groups and institutions is a globe problem, of which some people are ironically in denial of.

I do not like to use race in this, but what is said is true regarding pedophilia and child abuse.

Other then that, it won't stop a person from joining them or any faith. A pastor lured a child with a bible into a classroom, violating a child, even though the abuser was dealt with, it didn't stop people from becoming Christians or did anyone went out of a church in droves when a pastor shoots a man dead, who was only speaking aloud for he had been wronged, in the chest inside a crowded church, the same can be said about Jews, Muslims, etc.

Just keep in your mind that eventually when Jesus returns this will change. God by means of his chosen Christ, of whom he has given authority, will judge those who do wrong, and them alone will be punished. No man, woman or child, be it outside or in the womb, is perfect- all is imperfect. The Bible teaches this, be it in a religion or not, but profess to scripture, you have to respect what is written and adhere by it, just do not get carried away with it because a small shift can change a man even though if he thinks he is in the right and or doing good.

As for Tom, it is safe to say he reacted the way he did because of the response gets, especially in regards to the discussion between the both of you. For this is a discussion of not doctrine, belief and or faith, it is about an issue in regards to a problem this world faces, for we are of God, it would be wise to dose down conflict about an issue than to entice it, I need not have to bring a bible verse or two for such things for it should be evident. In the end, both of you, all of us are against child abuse, just to make sure this is clear for everyone.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The ARC was only one country. In Canada the Superior Court of Quebec was looking to proceed with a class action lawsuit in September 2017. I don't have any update on that. In the Netherlands 'Reclaimed Voices' foundation has set up way for victims to contact them and it seems they have had 250 responcies... In the UK the Charity Commision has an ongoing investigation, which the JW Org tried to stop but did not succeed. The IICSA, it seems, will probably also do an investigation, although they seem to be very busy dealing with others at the moment.... Then we have the USA, but after the two (rather famous now) victims received big payouts I've no idea if the GB has to hand over the documents or not. What I'm saying here is, it's not all about the ARC.

Yes, for this is already known, but what I have mentioned other then ARC has to also be taken with high consideration also, for all children are at risk, not just child confined within a single group, and no one is immune to child abuse. Canada has a set of laws and regulations regarding Child Abuse within the very foundation of the Family Violence Laws, which derives from the Constitution Act, 1867, and to them, Child Abuse is considered as an epidemic, as some writers have stated and even within religion, the very place people assumes such does not happen, it is not safe there either at times should an abuser finds his or her way in said religion to reach children, or any institution that houses and or cares for children - all in all, child grooming and abuse can only be prevented by means of internal and outside investigation and the victim's family operation along with those who offered to help said victim.

As for the United Kingdom, Child Abuse runs rampant there also, especially from those who join any group of their choice to kidnap, rape and even kill children, just like one of the UK facilities that use to house children to where the abuse took place. The situation with the Charity Commission and JW charity only sparked investigation, which I believe went on for 2 and a half years, was due to claims and or allegations such as:

"The charity commission is investigating claims that Jehovah’s Witnesses abuse survivors were forced to face their attackers."

"The Charity Commission launched an inquiry into safeguarding at the religion’s main UK charity in May 2014 after receiving allegations that survivors of rape and sexual abuse, including people abused as children, were forced to face their attackers in “judicial committees”."

The JW church in question, as some of the articles have brought up was the one located in Manchester New Moston, the press release on the investigation can be found, but I will link an example of said press release info: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/investigation-leads-to-improvements-in-safeguarding-at-jehovahs-witnesses-charity

That being said, the Charity Commission focus was the JW church and the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Britain by a senior member.

The JWs have also acknowledged that they “abhor child abuse, and view it as a heinous crime and sin. The safety of our children is of the utmost importance.”

They added: “Whether the victim or parents decide to report the matter is not contingent on the number of witnesses to the offence or whether a confession has been made. Congregation elders do not shield abusers from the authorities or from the consequences of their actions.“

But yeah, I know how you feel about Child Abuse, just know that regardless of the person, there will be those who will do what is necessary to protect a child, and help a child should they become victim and do so to the best of their ability, but as we speak, there is and will be probe investigations on everyone, every faith to root out Child Abuse, it cannot be stopped entirely, but saving and or helping at least a child or two is progress, what will prove far difficult for UK is the Underground and more dark and far more violent forms of Child Abuse, which involves authorities and government, excluding religion, educational institutions, etc.

Oh and yes, I am familiar with Reclaimed Voices and admire their work, but more can be done for all children, which most child neglect and safety groups tend to ignore at times, for some it is understandable to avoid threats, injury and or death. Other then that, Netherlands is not really a fan of religion anyways.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I cannot understand the attitude of TTH, yes prevention is of course very important. But surely it would help in many ways to see how previous cases were handled. As I've experienced such things I know that the memories last a lifetime, so if it can be proved that the JW Org was negligent, then aren't victims due some sort of compensation ? And I'm not talking being paid millions to keep their mouth shut. 

Not all JW churches are the same, just like not every Mosque and or Cathedral is the same. In the end, it usually depends on the people of the church, the leaders of that specific church and how much of chemistry the church leaders and the people have with each other, I do not want to bring up the race card and culture card, but it seems this is the case with who is doing the abuse. But yes, usually depends though, for one church can show support to victims while others, not so much.

All in all, how things are handled, perhaps far better than how it was done in the past whereas we didn't have twice as many of support from people and a network to spread information faster and more fluently.

But in the end, educating someone and or a group is key to combating child abuse the best way possible.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Lessons could be learnt from past dealings to help stop future abuse. Rules could be changed within the Org to make it a safer place. 

True, but then you have religious laws. What can be done is working with what is already present if scripture prevents one from changing whatever rules they have. No one is going to break scripture sadly, so the best course of action, which was said time and time again by a lot of people, is work with what is already there and do something to make things better - the only issue is JWs will have to be educated and better clarify what some rules and scriptures they are under to those taking the lead of a church.

For if God said not to add, change or remove from his word and Jesus said Scripture cannot be broken you have to take that into consideration - for it is said anyone who holds the bible and what it says to a very high regard basically accepted a Nazareth Vow right then and there, and such can't really be broken by any man unless it comes to a conclusion - that is, when Jesus returns.

The goal would be is taking the rules itself and working with it to lessen child abuse situations as well as identifying abusers.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

SM, people may care about statistics, but I'm more concerned about what God cares about. I think you are coming at this from a different viewpoint. My thoughts are, if the JW org is really God's chosen organisation, then God wants it clean. God is not interested in a percentage, He wants clean. He wants, separate from the world, and a much much higher standard. So to compare to any other peoples is of no importance. It is only important to compare the JW Org to God's standards. How are the JW Org comparing to what God expects of them ? 

No, I do not have a different point of view, the people care for both, and it is evident through anything regarding Child Safety and Neglect Prevention by those who adhere to it and what is talked about to young ones in youth clubs that are affiliated with various networks that dealing with child abuse, in my case, as a religious person and a close friend to the community of mind, who has spoken to children who deal with different issues, as well as child abuse whereas the category is violence.

Yes, God wants his people to be clean for the one True God we worship, is clean, pure, and holy, Leviticus 11:44, 45. At the same time, he is aware of human imperfection from Adam and Eve's disobedience and onward, even among his own people, present day his people are still imperfect and it is not easy for them to be clean because converts and newcomers, some with ill intent cannot be detected so easily, but God already knows the intentions and the heart of said person, for the bible says so of God need not care about the individual, he cares for what he sees in the person's heart.

We know this because God is the one who granted us the gift of free will, the freedom and ability to make choice (Joshua 24:15), and he knows our hearts, regarding to what I had said previously, we see this example in the Old Testament, 1 Samuel 16:7 which reads:

But the Lord [YHWH] said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord [YHWH] sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord [YHWH] looks on the heart.” - ESV

That verse is easily connected and compared to 1 Kings 8:39, 1 Chronicles 28:9, Psalms 7:9, Proverbs 24:12, Jeremiah 17:10 and Acts 1:24.

The Jehovah's Witnesses and other organizations, including the non-religious ones are not clean, and it is impossible for any of them to be clean because of imperfections and abuse of free will by some, to which it ends up affecting others, however, it does not stop those who at least try to do something to minimize and prevent a situation from happening and or attempting to deal with the aftermath of whatever it is they are focused on and it is not an easy task for them, you, me or everyone here. Another issue is not trying to break scripture which is technically a Nazareth/Nazarite Vow (something that can't be broken if set in motion) based on Numbers 6:1–21 and several parts of the Old Testament into the Greek New Testament, for they, as others will not subject themselves to compared to the mainstream Christians who drop scripture and what is written in order to gain new converts.

Child Abuse in this case can only be minimized and or prevented by them, and they will their best to try and resolve it, like I said, at least saving a child or two from an abuser is a good thing, for the unfortunate sad reality is no matter where it takes place, you can't save all children, the very reason why Child Abuse is consider a global epidemic to begin with, in some cases, people tend to be subtle when trying to find evidence and or key information regarding child abuse because it can lead to many problems where someone's blood will literal be paid, and for pacifist, Christian ones, wouldn't want to go down the route.

No organization is clean, just so we are clear and the JWs, just like everyone else is subjected to the impurities that imperfect ones bring into the group.

What can be said however, they are somewhat inexperienced in dealing with abusers among them, but clearly not among the worse that are not really talked about in the media, nor talked about by any Child Abuse Prevention groups.

As with everyone else, it is just time and patience of improvement that is needed, as well as better training and educating church leaders on the issue. I said this before, education on the issue is key, if others can educate people about child abuse and working with them on their turf to try and increase prevention, you can do this too. I speak to children within my family and friends inner circle for a reason, as do those within the community of those who share the same belief, culture and or background as me, in addition, you have to take into account how such person(s) are, for people tend to help out without fully getting involved, something I have said time and time again, and this was heavily mention for decades by Child Abuse articles, information and PSAs.

3 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

You said 'targeting a group will not reap any fruit because it will spawn comments, insult and reproach to God... ' You see how you are coming at it from a different angle ?  I'm not targeting a group. I'm interested in seeing, what is supposed to be God's chosen people, try harder to serve God properly and clean up their Organisation, and help their brothers and sisters.

It is not a different angle, this is indeed 100% true, which should be evident to you and if need be I know a dozen of articles and news information, in addition to personal experience of mine and others. I have been around and know from experience of such things, as do other Christians who are vigilant and serious. I had seen the JWs and other groups being targeted solely on the same subject (like here), which will result in others chiming in and will attack the whole faith itself, for instance, the Charity Commission regarding Jehovah's Witnesses, the response from some was not to criticize the Jehovah's Witnesses on child abuse, it was comments targeting and insulting God the Father (the things they say of his name deemed too explicit), the Bible, and Christians as a whole, both mainstream and minorities, regardless of doctrine and theology.

Some go as far as to make articles for people to read online that insult God the Father and his Son, others have said that the Father had failed and his Son had failed due to the Child Abuse epidemic among religion and to this day, they continue to mock religion, more specifically, Christianity. Eventually it will come to a point, regardless of your faith, the Bible will be attacked, especially regarding of what took place in the Hebrew Old Testament involving Moses and the like, the list goes on, one of the more recent ones today being that the teaching of God should be considered a form of Child Abuse and will reference the whole Jesus camp situation regarding the children. If I am not mistaken, there was videos of JW publications and a large number of Bibles burned purposely by opponents.

But there are people (religious and non religious) who are not like this and are dong things the smart way, on both sides of the spectrum they're aware of Child Abuse in religion, including the Jehovah's Witnesses, they know of statistics and prevention rates, such persons will focus on the problem at hand instead of targeting and or condemning a faith because they were caught off guard by the abuse, they know that some denominations will not just sit back and do literally nothing, in this case, some claim that JWs do not do nothing, which is false, for they make an attempt and do so while trying to not break scripture. As for JW opponents, not once have they brought up anything regarding Child Abuse outside of Jehovah's Witnesses, which is evident, but ironically, it had to take an Ex-Bible Student, a Graphic Designer, and believe it or not, a Homosexual, to correct JW opponents, who attacked these persons, one of the attackers being the very man you linked here before via gofundme.

But what you can do, and everyone else here is just educate the people to see the signs of child abuse, I said something about that before,a s well as identifying a child who has been abuse, their body language and or if they are keeping what happen a secret, for most of the time they do not reveal such information to even their parents but to someone they trust - and the key role in Child Abuse Prevention taught to a child if they tell an adult and not much is done, tell another, and another, that is what the PSAs teach, and that is what people who know these things teach the children, so even a child can be able to identify anyone their age who has been abused and or recognize the actions of an abuser, in some cases the far more difficult ones to deal with which can be a near miss at times is child on child abuse, which is very rare in a religious space, majority of the time takes place in schools and the very household the victim is in be it a family member and or friend around the same age.

In the end, Jehovah's Witnesses, will be subjected to allegations, investigations and the like, spiritually the organization is indeed clean, hence why people are still converting to it, but the people are still imperfect, God knows that as well as the Free Will granted to all of mankind, and he knows people who at least try. Another thing to add is you also have to remember Child Abuse is not always something people want to talk about, mainly if you run up to them and immediately speak on this matter - the best course of action is to just get on their level, know the individual even then talk about the issue when it is comfortable to speak on such.

As the 3 individuals have stated prior JW opponents manage to get their videos removed, there are better ways of fighting the problem, better ways of fighting Child Abuse.

Lastly, just pay attention to some claims people make, for last I check Jehovah's Witnesses do not have firearms and guns under every one of their churches nor do they own preschools and private schools, a debate I had with 2 women, one who spoke on guns the other on preschool child abuse by JWs, when the reality is, they do not own or contribute to any of such things for JWs sole purpose, the purpose of an organized religion is adhering to the Great Commission.

Know that I respect your resolve, but it is necessary to be aware of everything and dealing with the problem itself, and not the group as a whole, for we are to condemn, we may as well condemn, everything else around us. When the end times and tribulations conclude, peace will be among all people even among the JWs and we will not have to worry about Child Abuse, nor the life that we had when we were imperfect.

Just endure, and should you educate someone, a JW even, on child abuse and or the signs, be on their level and be mild with them in doing so for attacking one's faith an or its leaders will not help anyone for it is better to speak with someone when teaching vital information to them, for I can already see the issue of child abuse is what angers you, it angers me too, but I know from my battle scars and of the scars of others on how to deal with such issue and waking up to the reality of it in today's day and age.

If we can teach a child about puberty, about stranger danger and the like, we can teach them about child abuse. If we can teach an adult to be a good employee, a good family man and or woman, we can teach them on child abuse also.

39 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It will be: securning the barn door after the cows have fled, or impeding them from fleeing in the first place. Nobody is going to have a perfect record - not so long as we are talking humans,

Yeah, imperfect until the end times conclude and the Son makes his return. Child Abuse is a branch of other issues that cause anger and sadness, which is understandable by some, but people tend to take it a bit too far, but soon it will not be an issue.

Endurance is key, for maintaining salvation and faith may seem simple, but it is a really hard fight, Jude 3,  especially when the faults of others who do bad tends to be quite a problem.

A day will come when people will realize that fighting against something the wrong way, a cause, will reap a very negative effect. Something that is and will be evident and will affect every faith known to man in the US, including the JWs will the men in black starts closing churches, they have spoken about this before about closing any church they want back in the early 2000s.