Space Merchant

On 3/6/2018 at 8:52 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

"Follow the Money!"

Money ... always tells the truth.

Not always, for when you go for money, others who want money will take your money and the cycle continues. Like an endless labyrinth that you go through over and over again non-stop.

Check this out, totally insane: http://www.usdebtclock.org

Not only people follow the money, but they put people in debt, which will include later generations not being able to pay that off.

Stewards are also those who are taking the lead, examples being the apostles and other Christian teachers and bishops and overseers, etc. and or a freeman or a trusted slave/servant. An example of this would be Abraham to Eliezer of Damascus, for Eliezer is the steward of Abraham, and or his servant/slave, .

(Titus 1:7 and 1 Corinthians 4:1, 2, as well as connected verses)

Abraham and Eliezer - see (Genesis 13:2, 14:14,15:2, 23:17-20, Acts 7:4, 5)

In Peter's case (1 Peter 4:10), he points out that Christians, Overseers and others are all stewards of God's undeserved kindness, which is expressed in a variety of ways - being in God's arrangement in which faithful servitude and or stewardship is carried out.

Peter points out to all Christians, overseers and others, that they are stewards of God’s undeserved kindness expressed in various ways, and he shows that each has a sphere, or a place, in God’s arrangement in which he can carry out a faithful stewardship.

Then again to accuse a group of being part of Babylon, yet buy into conspiracy is rather telling. There is a reason as to why some Christians do not encourage infighting and or enticing such.

9 hours ago, Witness said:

You quoted scriptures from Rom 10, but look at Rom 10:13.  The NWT erroneously says “call on the name of Jehovah”.  The “good news” at that time, was the preaching of Christ and his teachings (Rom 10:9) Israel was already aware of who God was.  It is the name of Jesus Christ that should be placed in Rom 10:13

Incorrect.

The Jehovah's Witnesses merely restored the name from the Tetragrammaton in that verse (as did others) - the only error made was removing/replacing it from the scripture, putting LORD/Lord in its place instead of Yahweh/Jehovah/YHWH, this is why basic Hermeneutical interpretation is very, very important. In addition to that, despite the name not being there, one can easily differentiate who is who in Romans 10 (or throughout the bible who is God and his actions and who is Jesus and his actions, etc). For this was the case with other translations who inserted and or restored the name of God back into scripture, some like the Aramaic Bible in Plain English for example, so the NWT is in the clear for that and not in error - as you claim.

Facts: 

• Some try to prove that Jesus is Jehovah (Yahweh) by pointing to Romans 10:13 and Joel 2:32. The argument is made that Paul is here calling Jesus “Lord”. Since this is a reference to Joel 2:32, where it tells us that whoever calls on the name of Jehovah (Yahweh) will be delivered, Trinitarians as well as oneness believers claim that this means that Jesus is the same (sentient?) being (or person, in the case of our “oneness” neighbors) as Jehovah (Yahweh). Some translations render Romans 10:13 as calling upon Jehovah or Yahweh, in other translation, the name is replaced with LORD/Lord.
• Jesus (or Yeshua) is the means that Jehovah/Yahweh has provided for salvation (John 3:16,17), no one can come to Jehovah/Yahweh but through Jesus (John 14:6), and no other means has been given by Jehovah/Yahweh for salvation than the name of Jesus. (Acts 4:12).

Now, basic Hermeneutics again, Romans 10:13 points directly back to these verses:

Joel 2:32 - And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Jehovah/Yahweh [LORD] shall be delivered; for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those that escape, as Jehovah/Yahweh [LORD] hath said, and among the remnant those whom Jehovah doth call.

Acts 2:21 - And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord [Jehovah/Yahweh] shall be saved.

And yes, the early Christian did now who God the Father is, they acknowledged him openly on the opening of Romans chapter 10, soon they go into speaking about The Message of Salvation to All.

Now as for Romans 10:9-13 it clearly states that not only they believe Jesus Christ is Lord(for God has made Jesus Lord upon resurrecting Jesus), and openly stated that they also believe in the One who resurrected Jesus Christ. For you to say the following "It is the name of Jesus Christ that should be placed in Rom 10:13" is wrong, for you clearly see that the Christians knew Jesus was risen because of God having a part in bringing back the Christ out of the dead (Firstborn out of the dead), and the book of Acts it is mentioned dozens of times and elsewhere in the Greek New Testament.

Romans 10:9-13

(9) because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord [A] and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead [X], you will be saved. (10) For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. (11) For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame. [C]” (12) For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. (13) For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved [D].”

[A]

Acts 16:31 - And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.”

1 Corinthians 9:6 - Or is it only Barnabas and I who have no right to refrain from working for a living?

2 Corinthians 4:13 - Since we have the same spirit of faith according to what has been written, “I believed, and so I spoke,” we also believe, and so we also speak,

Hebrews 13:15 - Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name.

[C]

Isaiah 28:16 - therefore thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I am the one who has laid as a foundation in Zion, a stone, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone, of a sure foundation: ‘Whoever believes will not be in haste.’

Romans 9:33 - as it is written, “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

[D] Was already mentioned, Joel 2:32 and Acts 2:21

[X]

In scripture, mainly the Greek New Testament, speaks of the Risen Christ and or the Resurrection of Christ - Firstborn out of the Dead, the First-fruits , for such is important when knowing who the Risen Christ what is resurrection even means. It also speaks about God the Father being the one responsible for raising the Christ out of Hades/Grave, out of the pangs of death.

Examples like

Acts 2:23  and 24 - (23) this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. (24) God raised him [Jesus] up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him [Jesus] to be held by it.

Acts 10:40-43 - (40) but God raised him [Jesus] on the third day and made him [Jesus] to appear, (41) not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him [Jesus] after he [Jesus] rose from the dead. (42) And he [Jesus] commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he [Jesus] is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. (43) To him [Jesus] all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him [Jesus] receives forgiveness of sins through His [God] name.”

For "through His name" is compared to to 3 verses, Isaiah 53:11, Jeremiah 31:34 and Daniel 9:24. For believing in the Christ enables one to receive the gift of God's grace by means of his Son - the free and full forgiveness of sin(s) through Christ.

There are as many other verses in regards to God raising Jesus out of Hades. And these verses, and the understanding and context should not and will not be ignored.

As for God making Jesus Lord

Quote

The word "Lord" is a term which refer to authority. When Jesus rose from the dead he said, "All authority in heaven and upon the earth has been given to me" (Matthew 28:18). At Acts 2:36 we read that God made Jesus Lord when He raised him from the dead.

Act 2:36 - Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.” (see Matthew 28:18, John 3:35, and Acts 5:31)

Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, until I make your enemies Your footstool. (Psalms 110:1, see Romans 8:34, Hebrews 8:1, 12:2 and Ephesians 1:20)" ' Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every kneel will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:9-11).

Keep in mind also, that what Jesus Christ says or does (Shal'iah Principle) is not of his own, but originates from his Father and his God.

Also Lord is common, for Abraham was Sarah's Lord, The Philippian Jailer calls Paul and Silas Lords, God is LORD/Lord and Jesus is Lord, etc.

3 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

In the United States, we have the most sophisticated method of slavery known to all civilization, with taskmasters that are relentless, and efficient ... striking fear into the hearts of all citizens.

The Internal Revenue Service, or IRS

Ah yes, the IRS, for from Pre-School into college days, out into the slave pens, with the very meaning of the IRS is engrave on our ball and chain, strapped to our foot as we work to the bone like hamsters running the wheel, and it cannot be removed, for such a thing we take to the grave, and what we did not finish is the burden of our children and or relatives, who also have the IRS up on their necks, for the cycle continues like an endless bad dream -  insanity, the same thing over and over again, for even if you snap, it continues. For the Government controls, brainwashes, and oppresses everything and everyone, a time will come when they will put their hands on education, religion, businesses, etc, but this time, with an iron fist - but they are binding their time.

So yeah, the IRS is always going to be on us, they will always tax us, we will also have bills to pay where it involves them, and sometimes when we have tax refunds, they have their hand in it also.

 

But in all seriousness, Slavery is still relevant today, even in the US. For its presence is within Human Trafficking and or holding people for hard labor work against their will. On a serious tone, The United States have single handled handed helped out in turning Libya into a den for Terrorism, reviving Black Slavery (which is huge in Libya), swiftly and quickly after they took out Muammar Gaddafi, in addition to refugees being taken into the Slave Trade. Elsewhere in the Middle East, because of the United States, politicians and conservative political Evangelicals, they were for what happen to Syranic Christians, for those who did not escape ended up being killed, taken as slaves, and or wives by ISIS due to the Kurds, supported by the US, leaving them Syrianic Christians by themselves. Not to mention the illegal blood and organ trade, which also goes with the slave trade in Liyba, as well as around the globe.

 

As much as I DISLIKE CNN , this is what I speak of:

 

The Syranic Christian one is regarding this video, what isn't mention is that some trading of their faith to take arms to fight ISIS:

 

All in all, even today, some Christians, on the down low, either are for slavery or unknowingly support the very government that are accomplice to slavery, for in the end, all that matters it the $ money $ that comes from it as with other things regarding war and corruption, hence why they silence people like Serena Shim, Seth Rich, Klaus Eberwein, John Ashe, Peter Smith, as for Elizabeth Beck, well, shes on the run and in hiding, especially with that disturbing and yet shocking interview she gave.

Makes you think, does God really bless America with all the shenanigans going on in the states, and the actions of the US and the EU around the globe?

On 3/4/2018 at 4:23 AM, Sergey Christosenko said:

Are you asking for an explanation of this verse or are you here to interpret? Because there are things you may want to re-check, friend.

In the end, you can't make a decision for God on those who believe in him and the one whom he sent - once you qualify for such a position then perhaps you can choose whom you want, but such is impossible (obviously).

 

Also I find your lack of understand law and the new covenant that Christians are under, disturbing.

On 3/4/2018 at 11:09 AM, Matthew9969 said:

You jw's sure do love to bash the catholic church, some things never change.

Non-Trinitarians in general are not a fan of Catholics (Society of Jesus, Jesuits, being the mainline), especially the Catholics that take part in events that can prove devastating to Christians.

They were for the 2017 Reformation of October that put a great deal of Christians at the edge of their seats, as well as the Kairos 2017 event (Ecumenical Movement deemed Antichrist) and so forth. The cherry on top of the cake, the event that took place in Washington of 2016 that some Christians actually warned other faiths to not go to this event, they even warned JWs.

Mind you, Jesuits are doing such events for a reason, hence why most Non-Trinitarians are up in arms right now, and to this day and onward.

"The Protest is not Over" as they say.

2 hours ago, Witness said:

Who are you referring to?  Brown or Barnes?  Barnes wrote books against slavery.  

Barnes was not one for slavery (pro slavery), you are correct about this, however his faith, the Presbyterian (Church Government), were split regarding slavery, some against, some for it -  this goes for other things too, such as today's PC USA (not PCA), who are open on liberal and progressive, the inclusion of homosexuality and the like compared to the PCA who are not for such things, for the PCA Presbyterians are conservative bible readers.

Presbyterians have several denominations, mainline being PC USA, some who adhere to the confessions and Creeds, hence, the belief of the Trinity. Like past counterparts, the Presbyterians, regardless of denomination are indeed split on a number of things, as stated before.

They are govern by a session of elders in local churches (ruled by a plurality of elders), etc. They are also Evangelicals, for they are the type of people of faith to do missionary based works and activities (belief in missions, spread gospel worldwide).

Other then that, there are those within the same faith who differ from Barnes completely. Barnes however, his work is unique, but I don't think he was the type to gun or defame brothers and sisters in Christianity by means of his works, not the ways of Christians who adhere to what is deemed true compared to those who stray from what is true.

There were also some Christians Albert Barnes was not even aware of, so even if he had the chance, he would not do such to them, for they are all seeking truth after the many movements within the Christian faith.

Long story short, there were some Presbyterian who accept slavery and will fight someone to keep it as such, this faith,, for if we were alive in those times and we debated against slavery, we will meet with such persons who will defend something that is utterly wrong.

3 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

The key to understanding anything ... is CONTEXT!

In context, what is being said is "If you are invited in as a guest, and shown hospitality ... do NOT go shopping around for better food and accommodations".

It is as simple as that.

CONTEXT.... IS everything!

Your mind is clouded by your agenda.

"Quote Mining", however should not be a capital offense.

....for the first one.

Agreed. Most people do not look for or take the verse into context. This is why when you go to the SC scene, if you do not know your bible well, you will get dog piled before you can say God or Jesus. It gets even worse when you have a Jew or a Muslim who knows the bible far more than you in terms of truth, context and understanding - that is where some Christians face total embarrassment for not knowing the scriptures, and there is many examples online of this, I think I linked a video or two about this already.

Context is everything, benefit from understanding, gain knowledge, teach what is true the correct way.

6 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Couldn't agree more with your view here. Sadly it is NOT the view of the wt. They came out after the ARC and stated that they will NOT be changing the two witness rule no matter who says what. Pedo's don't normally invite a viewing party. This is the loophole that, maybe wasn't designed for this, is the perfect avenue for repeat abuse. The octo-popes of wt know this, but refuse to change for some reason. 

I suggest you read what the ARC again says about the two-witness rule in the final reports and seeing what is said for it was stated the rule is in harmony with the model bill of evidence (Tendency and Coincidence), it isn't really a loophole for the mental broken souls who pray on children. For such a rule is their Scriptural view and applications, as the reports says and there was not really much of an issue for such a rule especially when the ARC broke it down to what it applies to.

They won't change that rule because JWs are known for sticking to scripture, and solely scripture, in some cases when it comes to application. That is why they can't change it, for there is always a WHY to something as to what someone or something does, with reason and information pointing to that WHY someone or something do this or that.

I rather take into account truth than what others say, and I take the word of ARC over the claims of someone who is painting what is false.

But, I agree with the ARC, I do not believe you do with the way you responded, not taking into account of what the ARC had said about the rule the JWs have.

6 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

oh I am not ignoring this point, but rather magnifying it. You are correct that an abuser uses clever ways of carrying out the abuse, but why make it eaiser? Why give them a loophole? 

You may still being ignoring it, friend. No one gives an abuser to do something or take action upon someone, they do this on their own, for there isn't anyone holding their hand to carry out abuse and or crimes, the same can be said with people do other actions such as murder, genocide, etc, their intent, in their minds, it planned out and final. People who are not aware of such abuser will easily be swayed by them, for these people will not know of something until told, when one discovers something or witnesses something, etc. You can never know the intentions of someone truly until something is found out.

An example would be innocent little girls who you may see as sweet and honest little kids, but what you do not know is these girls planned out and lured someone, another child, in a near attempt to murder this victim, you can't honestly say you can automatically snuff out the intention of these girls just by talking to them or seeing them. Putting this into context with what I said before, you can't automatically snuff out the intentions of and or actions of a pedophile until accusations and or prove of it is brought up, prompting you or someone to take action when such information arises.

The example I gave was indeed a real one, attempted murder, stabbing of a victim (18-19 times) that landed two 12 year old girls jail time, one of them sentenced to 25-40 years to a Hospital institution for being mentally ill.

The reality is, there isn't loopholes, for such bad people are not really caught unless people speak up, evidence is discovered, the abuser's history and or past being made known, background checking, etc.

To detect someone's bad intentions to do something vile, you must probably think you are Superman/Kal-El if you can do such. Unfortunately, we do not possess unique traits and or ability, and the only person to have such an ability, to see the hearts of man, is Yahweh, God the Father.

People with bad intent will always do bad and will take action by means of tricking good people to achieve ill goals, other times they evade, and will cry to good people to win them over.

6 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

agreed, and it should be done with qualified persons. Elders are not qualified, yet. I hope that one day there IS a training curriculum for them to be able to be qualified.

True and not true. For what can be done is people who are qualified can teach and educate, other times, such information can be read via books and online. Examples would be spotting the signs of abuse, some people learn such things via literature, books, internet because they do not have access to qualified persons an the like. Sometimes people who learn from experience, or in this case, The Watchtower taking into account for what the ARC has told them, hence why the reports stated what the Watchtower has learned from the ARC. But at times, some people will act upon such whether they are trained or not, for they tend to go with the flow and hope things come out with positive end results.

6 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Thank you for your thoughts and giving me, and the rest of us, a glimpse of your part of the world and its own view on things. I truly appreciate your contributions to this and other threads. To see an outsiders view, from a place where corruption is partly normal (isn't it everywhere on some scale), is refreshing. I agree with most of what you wrote and my only point in this whole thread is that the wt CAN make a difference. They CAN educate the elders, they CAN inform the police and they CAN make this official policy. They can do this without anything more than dropping their pride and accepting help in making it a reality. Obviously they cannot do it on their own, or they would have. Since they boast about the worldwide brotherhood adhering to the same teachings, they can make the necessary changes to at the least prevent ONE child from abuse. They can do that, they just refuse. 

It was more directed to you, honestly, for this isn't the first time I speak of such, and this part of the world is pretty much the United States of America. I do a lot of traveling and lived in some areas, so I know from experience, going out to help people also. Corruption isn't normal either, for our government has placed a lot of people out of the middle class into poverty, and when an impoverished people have no mean of getting some opportunity and or chance, they have to succumb to conditions and do what they see fit to survive, be it robbing, stealing, etc. Homes being foreclosed and people sent to live in the streets while the people with money continue to stress the middle class and worry about building and or adding something that will not benefit the people. The world isn't a place of rainbow fountains, ice cream and unicorns as some make it out to be, you have to open your eyes and see that the world, especially the United States isn't perfect, for they will kill their own to make sure truth does not come into the light (Serena Shim, the Las Vegas survivors being killed off by the US gov't, etc).

And yes, the Watchtower can make a difference and they learned from the ARC and watching such information it isn't about Pride, especially if you know how they are and why do as such. Of course they can inform the police, but when it comes to religious institutions you have to recognize the difference, as I said it before about religious law and how they handle things, then comes the laws of the land, for Religious institutions are free to conduct their own internal investigation within their own community, but should something great and her major arises it is a different story for all denominations; they are said to have advise their members to take a course of action - and to say they are doing nothing is a bit absurd for we do not know what is their take on the matter as we speak or how they feel about such, the same goes for all institutions, for something like to handle the situations on their own and make up new policies to go in harmony with whatever rules they have.

And no, they didn't refuse, the to adhere to their teachings, hence why, they do not change anything scriptural, for if they did, they would end up like cherry picking Christians of the mainstream. In their eyes, it is like taking a Nazareth Vow and going back on it a year later, and such a thing are to be taken very very seriously, especially when it came to scripture.

JWs will continue to do their best and take in of what they've learned from ARC, however, Child Abuse will most likely just go down, it cannot be prevent 100%. Remember this carefully, this isn't a perfect world, as I said before, you can prevent a danger here, but you can't stop it over there.

But it seems even the people on the outside can understand what, who, the JWs are and how they operate on things, especially when it comes to laws. For such persons tend to not be a fan of them and or is neutral with them. As one of them had said, There are better ways to handle matters and it is not outright attacking a religion. A comment made by an Ex-Bible Student.

In the end, we can try, we can prevent, we can educate by means of experience or learn on our own of such things, but we cannot 100% stop violence, we cannot 100% stop murder or suicide, we cannot 100% stop war, and we cannot 100% stop child abuse.

All people, JWs included, will do their best, but they cannot stop such abuse to its entirety.

What you can do, if you want to, is speak on the matter with Christians, teach them even should such a conversation arise, get on their level and mindset, but do so in a way you are not attacking them because it will not just be bad for them, but for you also.

35 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

No! That’s just your erred understanding about scripture, and what it means, Mark 16:15, Matthew 24:14, and the manner of delivering the Gospel of Christ, which you now question. But the day you do understand by your example of Luke 10:3-12, you will release, JESUS wasn’t talking about, NOT preaching door to door but much rather sending the 70 to teach Christ message without positions and to be left to the generosity of others. (Armed with vulnerability) Through the different towns and cities. Territory! For logging? If a disciple was welcomed, great! Eat, drink in peace! If he wasn’t, that was okay to. They were instructed not to stay in a house that wasn’t welcoming. Matthew 10:5-8, Mark 6:7-11. Therefore. Your citation is WRONG!

Be careful with this verse, Mark 16:15. There is a very big reason as to why such a verse is removed from most other translations of the bible, or as for Mark 16 itself, Mark 16:9-20 is considered to be not authentic and or uninspired vs. that of Mark 16:1-8 being correct.

I said something similar to Witness regarding his other post when his answer was that the bible was inspired, when the reality is, most Christians are not aware of Textual Criticism of some verses for not being authentic or God inspired, forged/changed made by men, or not present in the oldest and most reliable source which are the 4th century manuscripts.

Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Testament_verses_not_included_in_modern_English_translations

Other then that, the other verses you said are correct and true.

On 3/1/2018 at 1:59 PM, Witness said:

Knowledge is a blessing from Holy Spirit Col 1:9,10; Eph 1:15-18  I am sorry if you feel I have been misled.  Through your words, there is both a condescending attitude, yet I do detect some compassion.   In general, you appear to have a strong defense for your own words.  Again, you assume much about me without knowing my full beliefs, which is quite incredible; judging me, when you have no basis to.   Some of what you say I am in agreement with; a large portion of it, I am not.   I defend GodÂ’s Word through scripture; trying fervently to boast only in the Father and Jesus, and not of myself.   Gal 6:3,4,14   I hope you understand this.  We both have the freedom to speak what we believe is truth. 

God’s presence is within one’s heart, fertile ground for the Word of God; not within the physical walls of a building, of any sort.  John 14:23; Luke 8:15,8; Col 1:9,10 This is a fleshly view inspired by the desires of men.  Gal 6:7-9 ;1 Cor 2:14; Col 3:2; Heb 11:8-10

But, I do appreciate the history lesson that I was already aware of. 

 

Just next time be very aware of what a Temple is, the Heh'Khal, Hi'e'ron and Na'os, which render into the word Temple and or Palace, and that these places were indeed built by people, including those who served God and others who oppose/against God  (Solomon, Zerubbabel, Herod, etc) for it is a divine/spiritual habitation (dwelling), sacred place/inner rooms and or sanctuary, tabernacle (built by Moses), physical and or spiritual, for such places, built is employed for worship to the God of Israel, for such places deemed Holy are there for a very important reason, especially to those who honor and worship the true God and is consider very important to some, examples like Jesus who had been in temples, drove people out and in his youth, spoke to the teachers there. This is the problem that is usually with not just Christians who attempt to deconstruct what places of worship is, but Black Israelites also do the same thing, but far worse, for the word of God isn't something to take into context, not out of it.

Yes, God dwells in true Christians just as he dwells in Jesus Christ, for it says so that in the bible in Colossians 1:9, 2:9, 10 and Ephesians 3:19-21 (also compared verses), but is Kingdom will have a physical presence such a thing isn't in our hearts because we believe in the Christ to return; for we make up the Spiritual House with the Messianic King chosen to rule it. Just like the Samaritans, who to this day apply what is in the Tanakh, we too must do the same until the conclusion of the end times and tribulations, wait for Jesus return - for that is what all of us must take into account and be vigilant and aware always until that time comes.

Lastly, always take into account what the verses say and take its context and do not mix them around. For comparing Zechariah 8:3 to the Rock mentioned in the Greek New Testament is enough to have even the most violent folk among Christianity, Judaism, and Islam to be on you like sauce on rice, and in your face about such error, this also applies to comparing earthly Jerusalem to Heavenly Jerusalem being the same or using scripture to make it seems they are the same, when the reality is it, because of truth, is not identical.

Be very careful of these things and you will not end up like some Christians who are blinding not just themselves, but others fairly easily. Lessons learn and experienced gain after nearly 3 decades of scripture, Hebrew and Greek studies including the language, and Jewish history, you will find some things that are correct that most people today who call themselves Christians, are not following and or applying.

3 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

ZZzzzzzZZZZZzzzzz

You may want to get yourself one of these to always be awake. 

11 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

That’s always the case, thinking the Watchtower didnÂ’t handle all those cases properly. Was ANY complaining witness there when everything was being adjudicated in Australia? Or is EVERYONE basing their conclusion of what is out there on the internet, and testimony they didnÂ’t understand, even though they heard it? This one-sidedness only plays into the hands of the devil. It offers NO constructive solutions that in the end WONÂ’T HAPPEN UNDER SATANÂ’S WORLD!

 

How easy it is to forget the Psalmist. Psalm 139:1–3, when people think, it doesn’t affect us all! 1 Cor. 12:25-26)

 

ThereÂ’s a great difference between sex, lies, and videotapes! The insider knows, whatÂ’s! WhatÂ’s, outsiders, can only make, a, best guess. ThatÂ’s the jest of brutal honesty!

 

 

People will always judge something or someone, jump to conclusions, accept something as is, cherry pick, shoot first - ask questions later, a yes-man to everything, a follower, instigator, a minion, that one dude in the group, or a Loganger.

On 2/27/2018 at 1:51 PM, Shiwiii said:

Did you happen to forget where you are here? I thought we were on a forum about THE WATCHTOWER and Jehovah's witnesses. That being said, I think it is very appropriate to make such comments directly about the wt and single them out of the list the ARC provided.  The issue is the way the wt handles these types of abuse cases. OK,ok,ok I'm sure you're better, have the biggest, fastest car with the nicest house or whatever, it doesn't mean I haven't read and watched the same ARC proceedings. Statistics are one thing, but as you will note JTR's post above, it means nothing if it is not relevant. What is relevant is the wt's consistency to hide its pedo's like the Catholic Church did.  

No, I know exactly where I am. We are talking about the Watchtower and the Jehovah's Witnesses, most importantly, we are discussing Child abuse, and when such things are to discuss, you need to be well aware of the facts and information that is public. The focus was indeed the Watchtower as stated, but you are throwing other players into the game as cover, friend, if you want to speak of abuse regarding the Watchtower only, keep it this way, and stick to the information. As for their handling and what the Watchtower has learnt from the ARC, I believe the information speaks for itself. One thing to note is that what is important is that the Watchtower will have to better clarify policies, rules and the like to some elders who are not as experience in handling such situations for any person who is inexperienced in something will not do their job any justice or any position they are appointed to. Information is far more relevant than claims, friend, it is always like this and will always be this way, for the worse thing that can happen is false claims and misinformation oppose to what is on public display on the ARC website and the information that anyone can see being present.

Fastest cars? Not everyone from the Caribbean seas such things, friend, I am too mild and humble to live the life as most people in the US do. Simplicity is how a roll.

On 2/27/2018 at 1:51 PM, Shiwiii said:

yes it is , you are correct. It is also a problem that some people and org's turn a blind eye to it or make it easier to continue. 

Not all of them, you are forgetting what I said previously as to why it is sometime people do not get involve and or in some cases will just offer minor assistance and or advise that the victim and or the parents of the victim can take action with the given information. Bystander effect is a thing that happens in religious institutions as well, mind you, in some churches when things take off, there has been consequences that puts the blood on the victim and the church's hands, and there has been quite a view stories in regards to child abuse. In the end, despite such persons who are like this, there will be people who will stand out from among the bunch to offer even more help if they are capable. In addition to that, you are also ignoring that even predators themselves will even con their way into the heads of good persons so they won't get caught, in some situations, the predator can be very violent or the roles could easily be switched with the victim's relatives taking vengeance into their own hands, something of which I most defiantly know any JW wouldn't want to be involved in such, for even other institutions be it religious and or educational themselves wouldn't want to get involved either should things escalate.

On 2/27/2018 at 1:51 PM, Shiwiii said:

And with this, the wt has said "thank you very much, we'll do things our way anyway." 

Check the reports again. For at least, they learnt something and this time they can better clarify things too for those who are not well-versed in handling such situations. Child abuse cannot be 100% stop, for such a thing can only happen in a perfect world, but the reality is what it is, as sad as that may seem, the price we pay for our imperfection. If anything though it would help to help those understand the signs of abuse also, that is a help, but it can't save everyone no matter the institutions. Educate members also the parents, even outside of religion, parents seem to not do as much, for example, a little girl nearly becoming a victim because her parents didn't monitor a game she was playing, Minecraft of course, whereas the predator was able to convince her to leave her house. Thank Jah the girl was saved -  This actually took place several days ago.

But it wouldn't hurt to educate some people, if some of us can do it, you can also. The JWs will have to get on the ball for it, but, they do have publications regarding child abuse, so such information can be used to help the members, and possibly reduction of any persons becoming victims of abuse, for one of the victims even stated she didn't know she sex abuse was until she read the publications regarding it.

Another factor is, some JWs at their churches tend to be more connected as a family unit than other JW churches, this is just from the African and Hispanic ones I am familiar with, for they are not just a family, but bounded by their culture also, more of a connect prevents abuse from happening, but not every JW church has this luxury nor do every church of any denomination.

On 2/27/2018 at 1:51 PM, Shiwiii said:

I see your point, but hopefully you can see mine as well:

If you see a problem, a serious problem at your workplace or neighborhood and it might bring harm to someone, do you just go to the city counsel or state department and speak up there or do you address the issue as it sits in your face? Have you ever heard the term "think globally, act locally" ?  It makes the statement that one must clean their own before tackling the world, and by cleaning our own, each of us, the world naturally gets cleaner. 

I have been in some situations for such I only speak with close friends and family about, for in some cases I have nearly lost my life at a young age, some close calls, being in the wrong place at the wrong time because of the actions of others in the area, one instance regarding a guy flashing his gun to people around him because of annoying high school students putting even children at risk of what could have happen and no one said anything, another gun incident regarding a carjacker, other cases where someone in the neighborhood (a quiet and mixed community of people) gets slashed up and no one would say anything because they didn't want to be that one person getting involved - hence the term you may here the young ones say today, Snitches gets Stitches. Experience and what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger, and that is what I am today. I didn't understand what that met at first, it didn't faze me but I did take issue with people getting hurt or abuse, lost even. When things take place, do I often question as to why people are like this, and why they didn't get involved until I began to learn as to why some do and some do not try to do something.

Over time, I have seen depression from my brother who was addiction, sexual immorality and didn't tell anyone or the church about it because the problem really bothered him that badly causing depression, but I and my father helped him out and some in the church who realized what was going on helped him out and today my brother, a man clean and sober, has been freed for years now. I have spoken to those close to me who suffer the same thing my brother had been through, young ones today also, one young person I knew in my life, took her own life for what she has gotten herself into caused depression and was too much for her and very embarrassing taking the only way out she saw necessary, even though media has gotten a hold of what took place a couple years ago, I respect the decease for not saying her name but in her case it was not going into sexual immorality that led to her, it was the action of men who bribe her with money and riches to do something that would expose her, showering her with lies, resulting in family and friends, finding out etc and the media jumping on after she killed herself. Helping her didn't bring her back to normal, but we tried, even the family has tried, losing their only child because the depression and embarrassment was that great to her. What  had happen to her and others is an example of what I have experienced, been in and had seen, etc. Such experiences and memories will never be forgotten by me either.

Any person can see a problem and deal with it how they see fit, some who do not get involve will contact or advise the contacting of the police, other times it will be the action of a witness, someone nearby and the like who will take action from behind the scenes, other, yet grim situations, if so and so tend to be a witness of something and if they should speak upon what they had seen, they will most likely not live out the next couple of days if they are usually the witness of something or is known by other persons who knew that so and so had spoken up for not every problem a person can easily help out in, for at times, not being smart and playing the hero will reap you a tragic consequence - the very reason why the Bystander Syndrome/Effect is a thing to most people for they do not know what can of worms they will open should they jump in. The many reasons as to why society cannot be clean of such. And oh yes, I heard the term, but it won't always be applied by the general public though.

But what I can say, is that there are good people who do step up from all walks of life and do a bit of something to help out, especially when it comes to victims, and should the situation of exposing some deems a danger to one's life, they take that chance, even though in most cases it doesn't end well for the person and people in connection to such person.

As for me, I do what I can, I use to work for a bank, I am sure you are aware of Barclay's Capital, for when it comes to some illegal financial things, we report it to the director, or the head of that branch office and it is handled internally, but usually in come cases stuff like this is made public. Sexual harassment isn't a known thing at where I worked, however, we are instructed if anything of the like happens, or anything illegal, we report it to the director and or the branch. Should some cases be extreme, we are told to contact the police and or exit the building, at times you would have to be outside to contact the police, but Barclays cap is loaded with security officers, and have access to a special are with reception to contact the police. Outside of work, it is a different story, but you already see the idea of what I briefly explain of my youth, and what keeps me going is my faith in the scriptures and God's promise in the future by means of his Son, Jesus, as well as my friends, my family, and those I helped out to be better people, stronger versions of themselves including the next generation of children in my family and of my friends.

But since this is a topic about Jehovah's Witnesses and the ability to act on something, as you said, I know quite a few, I am friends with some of them and I respect them for both our culture are near identical regarding family and friends as well as our backgrounds, a few Muslim friends from the islands too. I apply the bystander effect on him and some people in that area also because we know how JW loves to preach in different areas, for there was something he stumbled upon while preaching, and the people know who he is because he has a study there, for they see everything, what was known about the area was that there was indeed some form of prostitution, the JW brother had said  that the a few of the people he saw looked like minors, but he didn't stick around because the people there kept staring at him, and of course a well dressed guy holding a bag, publications and a bible will always draw attention and not so smart for a 19 year old to make eye contact with people looking for trouble. The area is not so luxurious contacts such ones we call Lookouts and if anyone speaks of such, it won't end well for them. Such communities exist because the town spends so much money on working on casinos rather than help the people and clean up the streets, they will not even bother if anything missing cases pop up, for it is a thing regarding race. The JW  brother though had since moved elsewhere outside of the US, he was Swahili by the way, but he always spoke of how dangerous that area was when it was almost nighttime, and knowing how the people are, they apply the term of which I stated before if someone spoke up. At the time though, he did have a study there who really wanted to learn the bible, his study doesn't live there anymore, but the brother said he still contacts the guy. He obviously wanted to do something, but he knew the risk of what that would do him, and his family, possibly something could have gone down the church if those men who are suspicious of him chose to watch his movements carefully. It's been like several years now, but that area has been cleaned up, however, some parts are still not that safe while the state continues to blow money on complete and total nonsense. There was a report I believe of last year where they not only busted a dozen of those in position of explicit child material, but those who ran prostitution rings. But that is just a single example, for Jehovah'es Witnesses differ from each other even though they are of the same faith in one church.

But for me, if I see a problem, I know how to respond, and I do so in a smart way, one that would not put my own family and friends at risk if that situation was that grim, for we are to think about the situation before we act upon it for not thinking to do so you will most likely make you like a fish out of water to consequence which can either be minor or major. But in regards to Child Abuse, I would respond, and if it isn't possible for me to do so, I would advise someone.

In the end, the world can't be clean 100%, nor can everything be perfect for nothing can be prevented and stopped to its entirety, I do respect that comment though, but it is what it is regarding how this world is now. We can just suppress something briefly only for it it to happen again and or elsewhere, for you can stop a danger here, and there, but you can't stop it over here. We carry our troubles, our anxieties, stress, and even death on our backs as if it was a backpack filled with books. But keeps us going is doing the good that we can, even though such good acts is seen as insignificant to others, as well as our family, and most importantly, our faith and love for God, and the actions and examples His Son has left for us to follow.

There is good people who do good, and there is bad people with the intent to do bad, and will tickle the ears of good persons just so they can have their way, pretending to be repentant even, but eventually, it will be too late before the good person realizes it - but the actions of a bad apple or two does not justify the attack of other good people. I say this because I have a good reason, biblical ones, as to why I stay in my own lane.

EDIT: speaking of people taking action, a man was killed for exposing pharma dealers, helping the police, just cause, tragic end for cleaning the streets of his neighborhood. The man's name was Prentis Robinson. The killer turned himself in after a heartless killing of a man.  The police even said the man took great pride in cleaning up his neighborhood. Good people step up, but at times if speaking out can reap consequence, the good thing is the armed man is off the streets, but those like him still remain poisoning people.

20 hours ago, Witness said:

Text...

Quoting the Watchtower does really take away from what you were trying to say earlier regarding Man’s visual and idolatry, as you said. Idolatry isn’t that hard to identity and people who adorn something or someone other than God and ignore the teachings of Jesus are obviously the odd ones out when it comes to idolatry. Surely you could have done better than that. In addition to that, some of us tend to be very, very careful of whom we paint as an opponent because a small mishap can truly change something without notice.

And again, there is a difference between just posting/quoting verses of which you are trying to show people are you are getting at vs. quoting and explaining a verse so people can better understand something without being confused or mislead, there are comparison errors of verses in your comment too. Again, you need to be careful for that; a simple mistake can be a very dangerous thing.

1 Chronicles 17:1-15

1 Chronicles 17 in its entirety informs us that:

Keep in mind that

David not to build temple (1-6)

Covenant with David for a kingdom (7-15)

David’s prayer of thanksgiving (16-27)

Now on to what we can find out in what we can learn from King David not being permitted from building the temple, but that his successor, being Solomon, who was to build the temple and why.

David wanted to turn to building a temple for the Yahweh. The king spoke to Nathan and said- Here I am, living in a house of cedar, while the ark of the covenant of the Lord [YHWH] is under a tent. This bothered David greatly. Why should the king’s house be a palace, while the house of God was just a tent? At first, Nathan encouraged David to follow through on his desire to build a temple for the Yahweh (1 Chronicles 17:2).

Yet that night the word of God came to Nathan, changing their plans: Go and tell my servant David, ‘This is what the Lord [YHWH] says: You are not the one to build me a house to dwell in (verse 4). God then points out that, in all the long history of the tabernacle, He never once rebuked Israel’s leaders for not building a permanent temple (verses 5–6). In addition to that, Yes, God can’t dwell inside of a temple as a normal man would, however, he was present, we can look at those 2 verses right now:

The Lord's Covenant with David

(5) For I have not lived in a house since the day I brought up Israel to this day, but I have gone from tent to tent and from dwelling to dwelling (6) In all places where I have moved with all Israel, did I speak a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd my people, saying, “Why have you not built me a house of cedar?”’

Note: These verses connect to Exodus 40:2, Numbers 4:24, 25, 2 Samuel 6:17 and Psalms 78:60. Dwelling also tabernacle in some translations.

Rather than David himself to build a temple, God decided to allow David’s son to oversee this work (verses 11–12). In response, David offered a prayer of praise: You, Lord [YHWH], are God! You have promised these good things to your servant. Now you have been pleased to bless the house of your servant, that it may continue forever in your sight; for you, Lord [YHWH], have blessed it, and it will be blessed forever (1 Chronicles 17:26–27).

David considered God’s word as a tremendous blessing that affirmed his son would also serve as king, for God will already establish David’s son’s Kingship. 1 Chronicles 22:8 sheds some light on God’s decision not to allow David to build the temple: You have shed much blood and have fought many wars. You are not to build a house for my Name, because you have shed much blood on the earth in my sight. David’s background of shedding blood in times of war was God’s reason for choosing David’s son instead (see 1 Chronicles 28:3). God wanted a man of peace to construct the temple, not a man of war. His house was to be a house of prayer for all nations (Isaiah 56:7).

Since David was forbidden from building the temple himself, he helped to gather materials and prepare the plans for the temple’s construction. He said to Solomon, I have taken great pains to provide for the temple of the Lord a hundred thousand talents of gold, a million talents of silver, quantities of bronze and iron too great to be weighed, and wood and stone. And you may add to them. You have many workers: stonecutters, masons and carpenters, as well as those skilled in every kind of work in gold and silver, bronze and iron—craftsmen beyond number. Now begin the work, and the Lord be with you (1 Chronicles 22:14–16). In other words, Solomon, who became King of Israel, later on built the Temple (2 Samuel 24:18-25, 1 Chronicles 21:18-30, 2 Chronicles 3:1).

Solomon faithfully fulfilled this command during his reign, leading Israel to the height of world power. David’s desire to build a house for the Lord was noble, but God had other plans. David’s reaction to God’s intervening with his plan is an example for us. When things do not go as we planned, when God closes a door, we should continue to praise God and then move on in a new direction. Rather than complain about what we can’t do, we should do what we can, giving God the glory. Despite having the desire to build the Temple, he was not permitted to do so, but he was able to do other things such as gather the materials that are very expensive by the way, which in our day is well over the what we earn for a living, for the cost of such also took from David’s personal fortune too (1 Chronicles 22:2-16).

What did God do at the Temple and hearing the prayer of Solomon? Fire came down from the sky and burned up the offering that Solomon had prepared and God approved of the temple. The Israelites who were present also rejoiced after witnessing this, mind you, this is after when Solomon said that the temple cannot contain God and or it isn’t big enough for him. For we know clearly that God cannot literally enter the temple, dwell in it even, but he was obviously present hence how he took up the offering from the alter by means of great fire and approved of the temple built by King Solomon of Israel (read 2 Chronicles chapter 6 and 7).

Acts 7:47-51

Stephen’s speech before the Sanhedrin (1-53)                Era of the patriarchs (2-16)

Moses’ leadership; Israel’s idolatry (17-43)                      God does not live in man-made temples (44-50)

Stoning of Stephen (54-60)

Pertaining to the situation with God regarding David and Solomon, the temple was actually built. Even though there is a temple built for God whereas people offer sacrifice, worship and service to God, obviously a place such as a temple, a house and or a tent cannot contain God, especially with what was said about him. But God sees and watches those who religiously worship him, hence what he said regarding going to one dwelling place to another. For he cannot enter the temple itself, however, his glory and presence can be witnessed by his people, other times he is present, overlooking, for this is not the first time

Anyways, 47-51 speaks of the house, being the temple, which was built by Solomon, who had the resources, material, thanks to dad also, and people that contributed to building a temple of which God has approved. We know that God cannot literally dwell inside of a temple, just like what King Solomon had said, but God obviously took up the offering and his glory filled up the temple, mind you, fire came down from the sky on to the alter to take up the offering, a result of that was the people present near the temple were witnesses of God’s glory (his power that was shown) and they, the people present near the temple, rejoiced. We also know from the following verses that the Heaven is God’s throne, for verse 49 is connected to Psalms 11:4, which explains a bit more in detail. As for the footstool, we can turn to Matthew 5:34, 35 of what that footstool actually is. Verse 50, speaks for itself, we see Solomon as an example, as well as David. As for verse 51, it speaks of those who resist and or rebel the Holy Spirit, which you will find in more detail in Isaiah 63:10, for those who became rebellious became enemies and such enemies are fought against, for the verse speaks of Yahweh’s vengeance on the nations (Isaiah 63:1-6) and his loyal love in the times that has past, The Lord's Mercy Remembered (Isaiah 63:7-14), with the remainder of the chapter being about prayer for mercy for the people sought repentance.

Note: Paul and Stephen saying that God doesn’t dwell in a temple house; that is putting God into a box, not appropriate for God Almighty. They probably formulated a general opinion of their time among Jews and non-Jews. Stephen could use this argument successfully before his Jewish listeners and Paul to his Greek listeners. Careful consideration of the relevant Bible texts makes a supposed Bible Contradiction absolutely unacceptable. (KJV has a mistranslation which has been restored in nearly all modern versions.)

Matthew 16:18 is only understandable if you know what the Great Commission is of the church, the people, etc, which you didn’t acknowledge here or before, or even understand of what it is about, but it is common to those who do not really see the take to account what this verse, and its connected/compared verses even mean.

This is already known of what Peter (Greek masculine gender of the word) means, a piece of rock and obviously not literally for every name under the sun has a meaning to something or someone. Yeshua/Jesus/Joshua = Yah/Jah Saves or Yah/Jah is Salvation, Elijah meaning My God is Yahweh/Jehovah (My God is YHWH), Yahweh/Jehovah = To exist, to become, cause to exist (He causes to become), etc, in addition, Peter’s first name, Symeon (Simon), means to hear or to listen, but what is unique about him is that he is named 5 different ways.

As for Peter, you would have to know what this verse means. [A] What is the church, how is it that death will not prevail against it, and [C] what is the role of the Apostles regarding the church.

Peter literally did not see himself as the rock on which Jesus would build his church, for we see what he wrote at 1 Peter 2:4-8 (also verse 9, which I will speak of later) that Jesus was the long-foretold foundation cornerstone, chosen by God himself. Apostle Paul referred to Jesus as the foundation and the spiritual rock. (1 Corinthians 3:11; 10:4), which we will find out later on since you did quote the verse after all. As for the believers, we are the precious living stones.

Death itself, be it Hades, Hell, Sheol, the Grave, whatever floats your boat and drives your car, it will not prevail against the church, of which its very foundation is Jesus who is the spiritual rock of which that church sits upon.

For Jesus had said that his church will be built, that his church will not die out, promising that Hades itself will not prevail against it, he assured his disciples that he would guide his church, preserve his church until he is to return, promising them that he will be with them always until the conclusion of the tribulation and end times. The Christ has ascended into heaven after being resurrected by God, the disciples of Jesus began preaching the gospel, to all people, everywhere, for the Lord is working with them and confirming the Word as well as accompanying the word through signs, for the church most defiantly had an obvious and yet powerful beginning. Because of their actions, people of all kinds, of all nations began to profess Christianity, thus claiming to be members of the church Jesus founded for He is the foundation, for He is the Spiritual Rock, as for taking in knowledge of the Christ and of his Father makes those of the faith be united as one, having the Father dwell in them for they are true Christians. The Apostles were given the command from the chosen Christ to take the lead and to establish it the church. For the church, was built on the foundation due to the Apostles with the aid of the helper and the comforter that is the Holy Spirit which they were filled with, the church kept and handles the teachings, and such teachings is taught to those who seek it, sanctified, lead by Jesus Christ through and or by means of the Apostles. These men who followed the Christ were men having great honor for carrying out the teachings, and in turn, successors carry out the teachings of the Apostles, for they were to and have gone out to make disciples of the people, and those who become teachers follow that same calling of the Great Commission.

Mark 13:1, 2 informs us about the temples that were present in Jesus’ day. Verse 2 gives us detail of Jesus’ prophecy regarding what he had said in this verse, for he was referring to the Romans demolishing Jerusalem and, apart from a few sections of the wall, they completely leveled it; for what he had said was a prophecy fulfilled, I’m sure you and everyone here are familiar with what the Romans role was regarding Jerusalem. As for verse 1, look at also Matthew 24:1 and Luke 21:5. For we can see what Jesus was getting at; for what we know, historical and biblically, that Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple -The Siege of Jerusalem (70 CE).

I’ll save John 2:19 for last because this one deserves better explanation - who else to do it better than a brother who researched and interpreted this very well... Plus my fingers are tired.

For Revelations 21:22 (Pure, Beneficial Rule), What can be said about this verse is 100% true, however, you can’t ignore, but must take into account of the actions of the Apostles who went out to continue, following in Jesus’ example and footsteps in terms of teachings and spreading of the gospel, again, Great Commission, for the church is the Christ and the Christ is the Head of the Church as well as its foundation, but Church also means the people who dwell in the body of Christ also (One in Christ), in turn, these persons are in the presence of God, and God dwells in these people who sought the truth., hence the saying, True Christian(s).

For it is evident that they did not just called it quits after Jesus ascended, for Jesus informed them of a promise from the Father that is to come to them, something that is to help them out, which is the Holy Spirit (the comforter as I said already). We can look into Luke 24 (On the Road to Emmaus) and Acts 1 (The Promise of the Holy Spirit) regarding this, which includes a newcomer to the group, Matthias (Judas Iscariot’s replacement), and of the promise from the Father of which Jesus informed them about, which can be read in Acts 2 (The Coming of the Holy Spirit).

All in all, all the work and progress of Apostles, and the main thing about Revelations 21, specifically verses 22-27, is about New Jerusalem, the Bride of the Lamb. Yahweh’s glory shines upon the temple for there is no need from any light coming from the sun or moon, and the very lamp of the New Holy City is the Lamb, The Messianic King, Lord Jesus Christ and those in the body of Christ, the church, as well as Kings, will walk by means of the light that is He – bringing glory into the New Holy City. The verses also goes on to speak of New Jerusalem’s magnificence, and that anyone who is not sacred and or is a lair will not be able to enter it, for only those written in the Lamb’s scroll of life will (see Daniel 12:1, Philippians 4:3, and Revelations. 13:8). A holy and sacred city she is, yet there was no visible temple of worship for Yahweh, God the Almighty is its temple, also the Lamb is also - Its ruler ship over the nations will be beneficial to them, the people, the nations, who will walk by means of its light.

In the end, this is what the teachings will lead one to, for Jesus being the beginning of the New Creation, heavily expressed in Revelations – should one understand of what it implies, for New Jerusalem, the very thing that will be a place of dwelling for those who adhere to what is true, as well as the teachings that are true, in turn, it also makes God’s main objective accomplished by means of his chosen Messianic King, which is Son, Jesus Christ as well as the inhabitants, the church, the people, being part of this New Creation regarding the New Heavens and Earth -  for these people are the righteous and the meek.

Do not confuse Psalms 95:1 (or the Old Testament) with Revelations 21:22 (New Testament), doing so you take the verses out of context and can easily confuse someone or mislead someone if you do not understand these verses, well in this case, just Psalms 95:1. For anyone who is familiar with the Old Testament to its entirety will tell you the same thing, and or state it as a Hebraic Violation as some would say when someone’s trying to connect verses together do not make sense, putting puzzle pieces into a wrong puzzle board, so to speak.

What is to be kept in mind is that Psalms 95:1 is speaks of Yahweh, the God of Israel as being the Rock of Salvation and or the Rock of one’s Salvation. Such a term is exclusively used in the Hebrew Scriptures, the Old Testament, which has occurred several times (Deuteronomy 32:15, 2 Samuel 22:47, Psalms 89:26 and 95:1, etc). Each time such a term is expressed it evokes vivid imagery and a sense of great security, for God is a trustworthy rock-solid savior. In addition to that regarding the Old Testament, the Messiah was not yet realized, so the saying God [YHWH] is the Rock of Salvation was not an overt reference to the salvation through Christ’s blood, however, Isaiah 8:14 alludes to Jesus as “a rock” over which both the houses of Israel will stumbled over, take a look at Matthew 21:42-44 also, but any man or woman can see the big difference as to that and what God the Father is called.

Now, continuing with God the Father, the people in those times considered Yahweh as this Rock, for as crags, high cliffs and rocky mountains of the land, places of which the Israelites often find themselves hiding in its caves and crevices, away from their enemies, an example would be 1 Samuel 13:6 (Saul Fights the Philistines; as well as David’s refuge while running from Saul, 1 Samuel 24:3, David Spares Saul's Life), for in those days, many, many battles were fought in Israel, with majority of the area being rocky places, in addition to that, rocky areas were deemed ideal locations for strong and highly protective fortresses, so therefore, the phrase Rock of my Salvation resonates greatly with God’s people, for God is their protection, God is their fortress. In David’s case when running from Saul, he does not place his hope on the caves, the mountains, a protective city, etc, he placed his hope on God (David’s Rock of Salvation), the creator of the Heaven and the Earth being that Rock (Psalms 121:1-3 My Help Comes from the Lord) as well as in Psalms 62:6-7 - My Soul Waits for God Alone. David knew without a doubt that it is Yahweh, his God and his Father, that is capable of concealing him from great danger by any means necessary; for if one understands the story of David, they can read and see for themselves of how God protected David.

Another example is the faithful Hannah, the mother of Prophet Samuel, for she prayed in triumph and she said the following in 1 Samuel 2:1-2:

Hannah's Prayer

(1) And Hannah prayed and said, “My heart exults in the Lord [YHWH]; my horn is exalted in the Lord [YHWH]. My mouth derides my enemies, because I rejoice in your salvation. (2) “There is none holy like the Lord [YHWH]: for there is none besides you; there is no rock like our God.

Hannah rejoices over God’s deliverance from her barrenness as well as His granting that her husband’s name continue on into many generations.

Therefore in the Old Hebrew Testament the emphasis on Salvation speaks of liberation within the physical realm, while the New Greek Testament on Salvation was predominantly spiritual, there isn’t a need to explain it because most here, including you understand what Salvation is regarding the New Greek Testament.

That being said, let this be an example for NOT mixing scripture to make it seem as though it is something else, for it can change the meaning of something, easily causing someone to stumble, to be mislead. Not cool.

1 Corinthians 3:11 speaks for itself unless one doesn’t understand what it means, for no one can alter, change or remove the foundation of the church, that is Jesus Christ. No one can prevent it from stopping until the Christ makes his return to earth when the Father gives him the OK to do so, and death itself cannot stop the foundation or the church, or its people who are in Christ, for the people live as Christians and they die as Christians, they do not break away from what is true because they know that the future promise that the Bible says is far greater than anything on under the heavens, on the earth. There are false prophets and teachers, yes, but they are not capable of changing what Jesus has set in motion regarding true Christian worship, or as some say, a raw form of Christianity. For such men chooses to go their own way, but not follow the way of God, for False Prophets and Teachers do not care about God, nor do they care about the Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:27-28 as stated before, the church is not just regarding the teachings and the practices. It is also the people who are in the body of Christ -  for such persons adhere to the teachings that originated from the Father, and with these teachings they take to the call and mission of what Jesus had told his Apostles, and being part of the church, a Christian is obligates to take this call of the Great Commission as well, no ifs, buts, or delaying it, for this is what Jesus has said, and this is what you as a Christian must do, in the end, it will benefit you, for God sees what you are doing, and most likely Jesus and the heavenly spirit beings who are in the spiritual realm that is Heaven. The adversary of God also watches for he roams the earth an seeks to devour people by misleading them.

1 Peter 2:5 is regarding A Living Stone and a Holy People. For we should not have a longing for the world or the things of this world because, we, the living stones, are built into a spiritual house, therefore making us in union, being one with Him (The Christ) who is the whole building, joined together harmoniously for we are, as stated before, united as one (just like the disciples are one with Christ and that Christ is one with the Father), and as a holy people, we expand and grow into a Holy Temple for Yahweh, God the Father. That is the only reason why 1 Peter 2:5 points directly to Ephesians 2:21 (verse 22 explaining, briefly, God dwelling in True Christians) regarding the Spiritual House (One in Christ):

[1] One in Christ

(21) in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord [YHWH] (22) In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.

Note: What you also missed is the living stones are not just the 144,000 that will be chosen for priesthood, the living stones that is built into the Spiritual House is ALL BELIEVERS of the truth also. In addition, 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17 pretty much connects here also so the explanation speaks for itself.

As for Spiritual sacrifices, it points to Hebrews 13:15, which says:

[2] Sacrifices Pleasing to God

Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name

Acceptable to God through Jesus Christ pointing to Romans 12:1 (also verse 2, as well as 5, which I will explain later), which reads:

[3] A Living Sacrifice

(1)  I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. (2) Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

In understanding these things and taking into account what it means, any person who reads the bible will see exactly of what alludes to:

The foundation of God’s building is His Son, Jesus Christ, the living Stone. The living stones are believers who come to Jesus and place their lives upon this foundation. The living Stone is precious to those who believe (1 Peter 2:7), but some men reject the living Stone in order to build their lives their own way, not God’s way (Luke 6:46-49 (compared to Psalms 118:22). Unbelievers cast this living Stone aside, not caring that Jesus is the only true foundation upon which they can build securely. (1 cor. 3:11 mentioned this already).

I can go into greater detail all day because there is more to it for the better the understanding and explain something than just quoting it, the better that one who reads it for themselves who want bible verses explained and or something from said verse explained in detail, but that is for another time. These believers, True Christians who adhere to the teachings that is true, take to the call of the Great Commission, are indeed the living stones of the church (the spiritual house) that Jesus, who is the head of the church promised to build (Matthew 16:18). As living stones, we have new life in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17). As being the parts of the building of God, we have security in Christ (John 6:37). As the Master Builder, God places His living stones just where He wants us to be (1 Corinthians 12:18). As living stones, we are connected to one (for we all in union with each other) another in the body of Christ (Romans 12:5). Our Lord, the foundation Stone, is alive forevermore (Firstborn out of the death) and will never crumble. He will support us eternally.

Now about that explanation, Peter goes on to describe the function of the living stones: to declare the praises of Him who called us out of the darkness of sin into the light of life and glory (1 Peter 2:9). This is the job of a living stone: a speaker of praise, a declarer of truth and love and light. The spiritual house God is building is designed for His glory, and we, the living stones, glorify the Lord in all we do (1 Corinthians 10:31).

You may want to read up on what the New Holy City is, for Hebrews 12:22 is regarding a Kingdom That Cannot Be Shaken. This is why some referred to the New Jerusalem as a New Holy City (Heavenly Jerusalem). That verse alone points directly to 2 verses in Revelations. For Mount Zion (don’t confuse it with the Old Testament) in that verse points to 14:1, which is in context, and the Holy City itself directly pointing to 21:2.

The Messianic King will have 144,000 persons, those chosen from among the people to be co-rulers, being in a position of priesthood to work alongside of God’s Chosen King, for these persons will bear the name of Jesus as well as God’s name, Yahweh, written on their forehead (Revelations 14:1), having the authority to judge for these persons are the ones who are seated on thrones, ruling as kings with the Christ  (Revelations 20:4) – and if you understand the New Creation and how Jesus is the first fruits, you would know about the First Resurrection. For these chosen ones are the very people who slaved for God, sacrificing time and every to do what Jesus had done, those who preached and teach and were persecuted for it, beaten up for it, even tortured murdered brutally for by those who relentlessly attack them and or against them, be it haters of the truth or those who teach what is false and do everything and anything in their power, “unchristian acts”, to defame such people who take the call of the Great Commission even going as far as to conspiring and contributing to infighting/attacking within the Christian faith (Which is a thing nowadays with propaganda and conspiracy). In the end, in trial and error, persecution and brutality; violence and abuses of all kinds, it will not stop such people who are chosen - for those who are chosen, who made the truth known to all persons who can be one with the church, one with in the body of Christ, will be among the 144,000. What happens to those chosen is no different as to what happened to Jesus, who was hated, lied about, insulted, disgraced, defamed, those who call to murder him, conspired to kill him, and those who turn their backs on him, eventually being contributors and accomplices to his crucifixion and death, without batting an eye for their actions. For such burden is places on those who also know of the truth, for they too are victim of such vile actions, reasons why most Christians tend to keep to themselves and not join others in on the infighting, hence my stance as a Christian, for we are defenders of what is true, no contributors to infighting and conspiracy, and like me there are many, many others.

You may want to re-check those verses, to put it briefly, there is no mention of the bride is compared to a radiance precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal, coming down in God’s glory, her light. But yes, as said before, the people who are of the truth make up the living stones, the parts to the foundation that is the Spiritual House. Anyways in the verses you listed:

This just makes us aware of Headship and head covering (1 Cor. 11:2). Interestingly enough, the First Epistle of Corinthians pretty much informs us that there are and has been multiple churches of God (several temples and the like with people with the same worship and faith), however it also lets us know that all these church were indeed a places of worship, and all of them are in union with each other, same faith, same teachings, and because of that, these churches with the believers, who are living stones as the scriptures says, are indeed one in Christ.

Husbands and Wives, nuff said here, however verse 23 shows us that The Christ is the head of the Church, as the Church (also the people) is in subjected to the Christ, so to wives to their husbands in everything (Eph. 5:23, 25). The Head of the Christ is also God, but people who believe Jesus is God will ignore this and try to make it into something it is not.

The bride coming from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband (Rev 21:2)

Knowing that the bride is the Lamb’s Wife, one being carried off, John, to see the holy city coming out of heaven, the city explained in detail (Rev. 21:9, 10, I believe you met 12)

You may want to read your bible for this one; it was not talking about New Jerusalem, Big difference compared to Jerusalem (Zec. 8:3). There is a reason, remember this carefully: Jesus, the Christ/Messiah, had been rejected by earthly Jerusalem. It is unwise to add that to consider earthly Jerusalem as New Jerusalem, vice versa when using the Old Testament regarding this verse.

For 1 Cor. 6:2 - The verse speaks of the holy ones, the chosen ones who will be co-ruling alongside the Christ, points to Rev 2:26, 27 and 20:4, no mention of the bride in those verses.

For 1:27, this verse doesn't points to the bride being mentioned as a living stone, to a very, very famous bible verse, Matthew 11:25. Verse 8 (still in 1 Cor.) informs us that we are to remain firm until the Lord comes back, we are not to judge anything until he comes back, for we are to be watchful of Satan, in addition, what our intention that resides in our hearts, as well as being received up in praise to God (compared 1 Cor. 4:5, 5:5, Rev. 1:10). 1 Cor. 1 still, Verse 28 speaks for itself if you understand 1 Cor. 2:6.

John 4:19-24 Yep. Jesus talking to a Samaritan Woman, but did you know that the Samaritans have temples of which they built, by their hands and the sweat of their brow, a temple to worship God, in the mountains, specifically, Mount Gerizim? That is why I mentioned the Samaritans previously.

Keep in mind that in those verses that:

The Samaritan woman told Jesus Christ: “Our forefathers worshipped on this mountain, but you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where people must worship.” To show her that true worship was not to be dependent on a physical location, Jesus responded by saying: “The hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.” (John 4:20, 21). Jesus explains that the place of worship is not important, he goes on to say, verses 23, 24, telling her: “The hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.” But when we really understand the chapter, What the Father looks for in true worshippers is not where they worship but how they worship, for true worshippers can also be found in temples of which they built, remember that. The woman was impressed with what Jesus had to say, the reason why she says the following (verse 25):“I know that Messiah is coming, who is called Christ,” she says “Whenever that one comes, he will declare all things to us openly.” And of course, in the next verse, Jesus’ response “I who speak to you am he.” The reason of the chapter, again, speaks for itself and it is a good example for Christians to follow, well, if you understand it.

Anyways, regarding the history of the Samaritans, they did have temples, specifically this one particularly of which I will speak of, a place of which they worshipped God, of which they had built, with their hands -  to this day I think people still have Passovers and communions in the area, modern day Nablus.

Mount Gerizim, where the famous well of Jacob is located near here, the very place of where Jesus spoke with the Samaritan woman. This mountain is mentioned several times in the Hebrew Scriptures. (De 11:29; 27:12; Jos 8:33; Jg 9:7) A Samaritan Temple, rivaling the one in Jerusalem, was constructed on the mountain. It destroyed by the Jews in 128 B.C.E, however this temple was built around the 4^th-5^th century B.C.E. The Samaritans accepted only the first five books of the Bible, and probably the book of Joshua (revised), which is known as the Samaritan Pentateuch. It was written in their own characters, derived from ancient Hebrew. The text differs from the Masoretic text of the Hebrew Bible. Some versions have are minor detailed changes, in some cases, major. Because of their acceptance of the Pentateuch, this reveals that the Samaritans basis for believing that a prophet greater than Moses would come, for instance, the basis of belief that can be seen here regarding a prophet from among the people, Deutoronmy18:18, 19. The 1^st century Samaritans were looking for the coming of Christ, the Messiah, for some of them, they recognize him, others have rejected him, some probably clueless, but believed.(Luke 9:52-56, 17:16-19, John 4:9-43). Because of the disciples, the living stones also, for they too are believers, their actions, the preaching of the gospel, making disciples, the gathering of people on to the church, etc was the result of the Samaritans later embracing later the teachings, there for embracing Christianity. (Acts 8:1-17,25,  9:31; 15:3).

Once again, being ignorant of such information only backfires, but learning of these things, should the person accept, will better understand scripture. God is too great to dwell in a temple compared to a normal man or woman who dwells openly inside of a temple, in every corner of the building, praying, teaching, worshipping, etc. However God is present in some way or another, for we see examples of this, and yes, temples, tabernacles, tents, etc were places of which God is present in, despite not being able to literally dwell in them, as we see this in the Old Testament.

We, as Christians, are the living stones of the spiritual house that is in all subjection to the Christ, the house that God the Father sees and considers His temple. We are indeed the church for the very word means “a calling forth” and or “the gathering of people” for the very word describes the people, not the building itself – another reason why it is said the church is universal by early Church Fathers.

So, I take into account of what the bible says and not the words of people who do not really understand something. Knowledge is power for a reason, and in learning these things you will not be mislead so easily. But it seems that many people are astray because of errors in the bible such as the KJV and or of prophets who use errors to push a claim and or teaching.

 As for John 2:19, I will just post here what a Christian Brother from community has said due to his research and study on this verse:

Quote

John 2:19

 

Destroy this Temple and in three days I will raise it up.   The Trinitarian Claim Trinitarians interpret the text to mean Jesus raised himself from the dead and somehow suppose this means he must be God who raised himself from the dead.   The Claim vs. The Facts The Scriptural facts show us that the Father raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus was the Father's Word and the Father spoke decisively when He raised Jesus from the dead. Since Jesus was the Father's Word, what should we expect the Father to say when the Jews planned to kill His son but the words, "Destroy this Temple and I will raise it up"?   The Problems with the Claim 1. John 10:17-18 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my soul so that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.” In this passage, it says Jesus was given the authority to take it up again by a command of the Father. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever to claim John 2:19 means Jesus is God because he raised his own body if he needed to be given the authority to do so by God. It is also worth noting that the word commonly translated as "take" in verse 17 is the same Greek word which is inconsistently translated as "receive" in verse 18b.   2. Violating other Scripture The following passages do not square with the Trinitarian interpretation of John 2:19. "I saw the Lord always in my presence for He is at my right hand, so that I will not be shaken. Therefore my heart was glad and my tongue exulted; moreover my flesh also will live in hope because You will not abandon my soul to Hades, nor will You allow Your holy One to see corruption." Acts 3:25-27  In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to the One who is able to save him from death and he was heard for his godly fear. Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. Hebrews 5:7   2. The Wild Imaginations of Trinitarian Minds: The dead raising the dead According to the Trinitarian mindset, one is expected to somehow suppose Christ was not actually dead and lifeless in a tomb but was quite alive and empowered to raise his own dead body to life. This problem is completely disregarded by Trinitarians. If the person Jesus was not actually dead, but alive and able to raise his body from the dead, then no person had died for their sins. But like Cerinthus, they suppose that at the point of death, the divine Christ departed from that flesh named Jesus hanging on the cross. In this way, the divine Christ was not dead but alive and they laid a dead human named Jesus in a tomb. Put another way, dying usually results in being dead but not in the case of the Trinitarian divine Son. His dying did not result in being dead. God the Son died only in process but not in result and he remained quite alive while discarding his human flesh and leaving his dead carcass behind. Jesus the divine being escaped to parts elsewhere and remained quite alive while Jesus the human being was that dead flesh hanging dead on the cross. In the Trinitarian mind, it is necessary to espouse this heretical Cerinthian concept where Jesus the divine being remained alive while Jesus the human being was hanging dead on the cross.   3. A Self Refuting Claim Trinitarians like to claim John 2:19 means Jesus raised himself. For some strange reason, they don't see the problem with their claim. They also claim that God the Father raised Jesus from the dead, the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead, and Jesus raised himself from the dead. And so they believe that all three persons of Trinity doctrine raised Jesus from the dead. And so they conclude the Triune God raised Jesus from the dead. Here is where their utter confusion manifests itself. Unfortunately, they don't seem to understand that they aren't making any sense. In the doctrine of the Trinity, the Father is not the Triune being, the Son is not the Triune being, and the Holy Spirit is not the Triune being, and conversely, the Triune being is not the Father, the Triune being is not the Son, and the Triune being is not the Holy Spirit. So to say Jesus raised himself is therefore to say the Triune being did not raise Jesus because Jesus is not the Triune being in Trinity doctrine. Or to say the Triune being raised Jesus is to say that Jesus did not raise himself since the Triune being is not the Jesus. In the mental gymnastics of their minds, the Father raised Jesus from the dead + Jesus raised Jesus from the dead + the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead, and that amounts to the Triune God raising Jesus from the dead. What they don't seem to comprehend is that if they make such a claim, they can't say the Father raised Jesus from the dead nor can they say Jesus raised Jesus from the dead nor can they say the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead because any one of these three is not the Triune God in their own doctrine. Put more simply, to claim the Triune God raised Jesus contradicts the claim that Jesus raised himself. In Trinitarian doctrine, you simply cannot say that the Triune God raised Jesus from the dead and also insist Jesus raised himself from the dead, and hope to make any kind of sense whatsoever because Jesus is not the Triune God, and the Triune God is not Jesus. Either the Triune God raised Jesus from the dead or Jesus raised himself from the dead. In Trinitarian doctrine, you can't claim both without contradicting yourself. But because they do claim both, they do contradict themselves. The same situation holds true for claiming the Father raised Jesus and Jesus raised himself. In Trinity doctrine, the Father is not Jesus and Jesus is not the Father. To say Jesus raised himself is also to say the Father did not raise Jesus because Jesus is not the Father. Or to say the Father raised Jesus is also to say that Jesus did not raise himself. To insist Jesus raised himself from the dead is also to say it was not the Triune God who raised Jesus since Jesus is notthe Triune being and the Triune being is not Jesus. Morover, what sense does it make to claim Jesus raised himself and then insist that two other persons raised "himself"? But it's even worse than this since they are ultimately claiming four different identities raised "himself": (1) the Father, (2) the Son, (3) the Holy Spirit, (4) the Triune God. For some reason, Trinitarians are unable to see or acknowledge their own muddled contradictory confusion.   4. Jesus was able to do nothing from himself In the Gospel of John, Jesus insisted that he was not able to do anything from himself. As he himself testified, it was the Father abiding in him who did the works (John 14:10; cf. Matt 12:28; Acts 2:22). Now if this was true of Jesus while he was alive and well, how much more was he unable to do anything of himself when he was laying dead in a tomb! I am not able of my own self to do anything. John 5:30.   5. The Testimony of Scripture The New Testament consistently declares that God the Father raised Jesus from the dead by the power of His Holy Spirit. Yet, Trinitarians want to have it that John 2:19 is an exception which states someone else actually did it. But a review of the Scriptural data shows rational minded people that something is terribly amiss with the Trinitarian claim. God raised him up again, having loosed the pangs of death, since it was not possible for him to be held by it. Acts 2:24  This Jesus God raised up again. Acts 2:32.  You put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses. Acts 3:15.  Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead. Acts 4:10.  The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you had put to death by hanging him on a cross. Acts 5:30.  God raised him up on the third day. Acts 10:40.  God raised Him from the dead... God has fulfilled this promise to our children in that He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, "You are My son; Today I have begotten You." He raised him up from the dead, no longer to return to corruption... He whom God raised did not undergo corruption. Acts 13:30-37.  His Son, who came to be out the seed of David according to the flesh, fixed son of God in power by the resurrection out of the dead, according to the Spirit of Holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 1:3-4  Those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. Romans 4:24.  Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. Romans 6:4  But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit which dwells in you. Romans 8:11. God raised him from the dead. Romans 10:9.  Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power. 1 Corinthians 6:14.  Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 1 Corinthians 15:15.  We also believe, therefore we also speak knowing that He who raised the Lord Jesus will raise us also with Jesus. 2 Corinthians 4:13-14.  The God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory.... He raised him from the dead and seated him at His right hand in the heavenlies. Ephesians 1:17-20.  You turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead. 1 Thessalonians 1:10  ...through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. 1 Peter 1:21  God the Father, who raised him from the dead. Galatians 1:1.   Analysis of the Facts 1. My Father's House The Trinitarian interpretation completely fails to honestly regard the context of the passage: "Take these things away and stop making my Father’s house a marketplace." His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for Your house will consume me." John 2:16-17 (see Psalm 69:9). The Temple is the Father's house, the Father of Jesus. Likewise, we are to understand that the body of Christ is the temple of God, that is, the Father's house. The Father's Word had tabernacled in human flesh (1:14) and the Father abiding in Jesus did the works (14:10). Let the reader also observe that Jesus did not describe the Temple as his house; Jesus did not describe the Temple as the Triune God's house; the Temple was his God's house, the Father's house. The Old Testament God of Israel was the Father of Jesus and the Temple built by Solomon was the Father's House. This simple fact alone tells us that the God of the Shema was the Father of Jesus. Under the Law, the Father's house was a stone temple. But something new was taking place. The Spirit of the Father had come to dwell in Jesus and this man himself was now God the Father's tabernacle, the Temple of God. And indeed, we also read in the Scriptures that the body of Christ, the church, is the Temple of God where His Spirit dwells.   2. Mark 14:58/ Mark 26:61 - Another Temple made without Human Hands Some stood up and began to give false testimony against him, saying, "We heard him say, 'I will destroy this Temple made with hands, and in three days I will build another made without hands.'" The Jews falsely testified that Jesus intended to destroy the Temple in Jerusalem. Notice what Jesus had said, "I will build another made without hands." He will build another Temple which was not made with human hands. Let us remember that the church is the body of Christ and how Jesus had said, "Upon this rock, I will build my church."   3. The Body of Christ Later in the Gospel of John, Jesus said, "I am the resurrection and the life." In Christianity, resurrection life is found in the body of Christ because he was bodily raised to resurrection life. The Spirit is life and as Paul says, Jesus was bodily raised to be "life-giving Spirit." Christ is the Head of the body, that is, the church. Jesus himself said, "On this rock, I will build by church." No longer is the stone Temple the meeting place between God and his people. The meeting place is now Christ. The temple is now Christ and the members of his body, that is, Christians, and it is within the body of Christ that God's Spirit dwells. Christ is the cornerstone and the members of his body are his followers, the living stones fitted together into one Temple of God. The Temple of God is the body of Christ and the passage in question is about the Temple of God and the body of Christ.   4. Destroy this Temple To destroy this Temple is to destroy the Temple of God. The chief priests and the scribes heard this, and began seeking how to destroy Him; for they were afraid of Him, for the whole crowd was astonished at His teaching. Mark 11:18. He was teaching daily in the temple; but the chief priests and the scribes and the leading men among the people were trying to destroy him. Luke 19:47 Notice what happens to those who destroy the Temple of God. If any man destroys the Temple of God, God will destroy him. 1 Corinthians 3:17.   5. What Sign do you Offer Us? Jesus was responding to a question from the Jews. After clearing the Temple, the Jews had asked Jesus for a sign to show them to justify why he did these things. Hence, we must understand that Jesus' response tells them what that sign will be. The Jews wanted to know by what authority he was doing these things. When He entered the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to Him while He was teaching, and said, "By what authority are You doing these things, and who gave You this authority?" Matthew 21:23 Who gave Jesus this authority to clear the Temple? The Father. Note how the Jews ask the same question in the the Synoptic parallel accounts: When [Jesus] entered the temple, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to him while he was teaching, and said, “By what authority are you doing these things, and who gave you this authority?” Matthew 21:23 And as He was walking in the temple, the chief priests and the scribes and the elders came to him, and began saying to him, “By what authority are you doing these things, or who gave you this authority to do these things?” Matthew 11:27-28 On one of the days while he was teaching the people in the temple and preaching the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes with the elders confronted him, and they spoke, saying to him, “Tell us by what authority You are doing these things, or who is the one who gave you this authority?” Luke 20:1-2 This occurs right after Jesus cleared the temple. Jesus responds by asking them a question which boxes them in. The obvious answer is that the Father gave this authority to clear the Temple to Jesus. And that is precisely what Jesus tells us in the Gospel of John. Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of himself, unless it is something he sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the son also does.... just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the son also to have life in himself....and he gave him authority to judge.... I can do nothing from myself.... the very works that I do - testify about me, that the Father has sent me....I have come in the name of my Father. John 5:18-43 The above is the language of authority. The Father gave Jesus authority to act in His name. In the same way, his death and resurrection came from the authority of the Father. For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down my life so that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from me, but I lay it down from myself. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father. John 10:17-18. See 12:49-50. At this point, note how Jesus is pointing in the direction of the Father and remember that everywhere else in Scripture we find that it was the Father who raised Jesus from the dead.   6. The Word became flesh: the Father's Word Jesus was the Prophet who was coming into the world (6:14). God put His words in Jesus' mouth. "I will raise up a prophet... I will put My words in his mouth" (Deuteronomy 18:15-18).  For he whom God has sent utters the words of God, for it is not by measure that he gives the Spirit. (3:34).  My teaching is not mine, but His who sent me. If any man's will is to do his will, he shall know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority. He who speaks on his own authority seeks his own glory, but he who seeks the glory of him who sent him is true, and in him there is no falsehood. (7:16-18).  Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear my word.... He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God. (John 8:47).  He who sent me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world (John 8:26).  Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of man, then you will know that I am he, and that I do nothing from myself but as my Father teaches me I speak. (8:28).  For I do not speak out of myself. The Father who sent me has himself given me commandment what to say and what to speak. (12:49).  Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak from myself but the Father who abides in me does the works. (14:10).  He who does not love me does not keep my words; and the word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me. (John 14:24).  I will put MY Words in his mouth. Deuteronomy 18:18; see Acts 2:22-26.  And Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in me, does not believe in me but in Him who sent me. (John 12:44).    Jesus was the Word of God. As God's Word he was the Father's voice to Israel.   7. The Word Jesus had spoken: Two Witnesses But He was speaking of the temple of His body. So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken. John 2:21-22. The words Jesus had spoken were the words of God the Father. When Jesus spoke, there were two witnesses: (1) Jesus, and (2) the Father. Jesus did not speak from himself. The Father abiding in him did the works (14:10). If I alone testify about myself, my testimony is not true. There is another who testifies of me, and I know that the testimony which He gives about me is true. 5:31-32. In your own Law it is written that the testimony of TWO witnesses is true. I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is THE FATHER who sent me.... I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world... I do nothing from myself, but I speak these things as the Father taught me. John 8:17-28.   8. Summary The point of the passage is to illustrate how the Father's Word is tabernacled in His temple, that is, the body of Jesus by the Holy Spirit that was in Jesus and as the Father's Word we are to understand that the son speaks on his Father's authority. The Father raised Jesus from the dead and because Jesus came in his Father's name he speaks the words of his Father, "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up." Jesus was the promised prophet of God who had declared that He would put His words in his mouth just as Jesus confirms many times in the Gospel of John. Just as the prophets of old spoke in the name of God and used terms like "I" and "Me" as if the Father himself is speaking, Jesus the very Word of God is speaking as the Word of the Father. Notice where Jesus is at the moment. He is in the Temple, a body of flesh which is the Word of God which had become flesh. The Word became flesh and tabernacled among us. So where is the Spirit of God? In his body. The Word had previously abided in the Spirit of God and now the Spirit of God was abiding in the Word. The Gospels teach over and over that that authority of God is given by his Spirit and the same is true here. He is not speaking on his own but in the Spirit of God his Father who gave him authority in the Spirit and who will raise him from the dead in that same Spirit. By what authority? By the authority that will raise him up, the Father in the Spirit of Holiness. This was a message from God the Father to these Jews. The Jewish Temple rulers were the ones who conspired to kill Jesus and yelled, "Crucify him, crucify him." They would destroy God the Father's temple, the place where his Spirit dwelt, the body of the man Jesus. And the Word having become flesh, God the Father speaks to these Jews by means of his Word, "Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up." We must carefully regard the question the Jews had asked Jesus. They wanted a sign that would tell them his reasons for clearing the Temple. And we find in the Gospel of John that Jesus tells us by what authority that he says the things he says and does the things he does. He came in the name of his Father and the Father abiding in him did the works (14:10). His words were not his own but the Father's who sent him (14:24).   Conclusion The Scriptural facts show us that his body was the Temple of God; the Word tabernacled in human flesh and that flesh was the Father's Temple. He, this body of flesh, was the Father's Word and he spoke the words of the Father. This account is about the Father's house, the Temple. Jesus' words were not his own but the Father's who sent him. This body of flesh, His Temple, was His Word to the world. Since he was the Father's Word, there were two witnesses as according to the Law. Jesus tells us many times in John's Gospel that he spoke the words of the Father. He kept his Father's word (8:55) for eternal life. For I did not speak from myself, but the Father Himself who sent me has given me commandment as to what to say and what to speak. I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told me. John 12:50 The word Jesus had spoken at John 2:19 were the words of the Father. The Father's word is "the word of life" (1 John 1:1). In the Gospel of John, Jesus is the Father's word tabernacled in human flesh. Therefore, being the Father's word, what then did you expect the Father to say when these men asked Jesus by what authority he had cleared the Temple? "Destroy this Temple and in three days I will raise it up."   "I am the resurrection and the life." John 11:25

2 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Hmmm! That’s an exceptional thought. (You must be delusional). I wonder. How many TREATMENT CENTERS the Watchtower has for their problematic Elders like the Catholic faith has for their Priest?

I wonder, how many elders were sent to rehab for various things, instead of being disfellowshiped for their actions. And, now are proactive in criticizing the Watchtower because they feel slated, along with every person disfellowshipped for various reasons.

I can recall 1 example of a Catholic Priest murdering a Texas Beauty Queen, decades ago, and the dioceses ALONG WITH THE GOVERNMENT decided to send this priest to atone for his sin in a Catholic treatment center. NO jail time, AGREED BY THE STATE OF TEXAS, just treatment. Bias! much, on Behave of governments to select certain faiths to HELP! versus prosecute?

Fast forward, after an investigative journalist researched this claim? This priest was brought before Caesar's justice and sentenced to, 20 to life in 2017. Even though, this priest went on to live a happy life after the murder for about 55 years or so. Oh Yeah! he was found to have molested over a 100 children too and was NEVER charged for.

I guess the Catholics found a parallel with setting a murder-free (Barabbas) and condemned the innocence of that beauty queen to death (Jesus). Matthew 27:17

Then, there’s the infamous, phrase cover-up. If a Witness ACCUSED of molestation CAN’T be PROVEN IN CEASARS LAW? Would the accused be sentenced to a probability and NOT BE ALLOWED TO FUNCTION as a productive member of society under the Secular law? Or would that person be sentenced under public opinion for that possible crime? I believe the balance of justice would lean toward secular law.

Yet, the Australian government per say didn’t have a problem with judicial intervention but had a concern with NOTIFICATION. Their stance is, regardless if a CASE CAN BE PROVEN OR NOT, notify secular authority, and continue with whatever scriptural matters you have toward your congregation.

Then, the question becomes, what happens when secular authority CAN’T prove a claim, between the accused and accuser. What is the PUBLIC OPINION in involving yourselves in private lives? 1 Thessalonians 4:10-12, 1 Peter 4:15-16

If disgruntled witnesses spent as much time criticizing the Watchtower with LEARNING to understand scripture, Philippians 4: 8, they would get a clue, the BALANCE the Elders are obligated to have when weighing in on judicial matters AS PER SCRIPTURE to benefit the congregation. Now, this doesn’t apply to clueless opposers, that’s a different matter altogether! Proverbs 20:3

Then we have the infamous “leaked” document that by in large has been accepted by all opposers and many disgruntled witnesses. According to the prevailing wind of public opinion? All those 1006 accusations were found to be true even though, I’m sure the ARC would have scrutinized all the information within that document to make a SOUND JUDGEMENT, yet they only found 2 credible witnesses to go before their tribunal. 2 witnesses out of a document that reflects these supposed 1006 case convictions as per opposers, and OUT of 65 YEARS in that document. Now, mind you, ONLY opposers think this document was leaked without it being TAMPERED with. What do opposers have a HABIT of doing with manipulating Watchtower literature, and sound bits? So, no one actually knows, the ACTUAL document the ARC and Watchtower have. And ONLY opposers think, all those cases are convictions. There is ONE opposer here, that went out on a limb to STATE, NOT ONE! of these cases, were brought before, secular law. Even though there are many entries within that document to PROVE THAT PERSON A LIAR. But, if only 2 people could be accounted for, for testimony? Then, opposers have over exaggerated the content of this document.

I wonder how many CASES the Catholic faith has DOCUMENTED about matters that deserve at the very least scriptural intervention. I wonder how MANY parishioners have been excommunicated, for spiritual matters.

So, YES! There is, delusional thinking, and it all comes from demented opposers!! Romans 2:1-3

A disgruntled religious person who sinks this low makes them no different than the people who want to see ALL religions fall and all bibles, no matter the translation be it right or wrong, burned to ash.

Some people nowadays do not know how the law works nor do they know that child abuse is all over the place, not only within religions, but schools, businesses, clubs, sports, etc.

I also, a bit off-topic, find it odd that whenever a woman such acts, they are let off easy compared to a man, someone of race/color and or some religious background.

Sometimes the law can be at fault also when it comes to abuse.

On 2/26/2018 at 10:40 AM, Shiwiii said:

What you, Space Merchant, Tom and anyone else minimizing the issue by focusing on one country and the small population of jws in said country, are missing the point. Think globally not locally. You are living in a dream world if you think OZ is a one off thing. 

Countries participating thus far that we know of:

UK

Holland

USA

Austraila

Canada

This is like the Olympics of investigation of the wt and their practices.  Why would all of these countries be looking into the wt if there was no problem? They wouldn't

No one is minimizing anything, for it is you who do not understand, we read the case studies and the final reports, you haven't, which is evident in your previous comments. For we take into account of the information we have before us and understand where the ARC's conclusion is about, some of us, like me, have been following ARC since 2012 (there is a HUGE timeline and it is on their website), for I didn't just jump on the ship very late into the game as you obviously did, use the line and read everything of all cases and reports and the very beginning of ARC actions towards the religious groups.

And no, don't bring the Olympics into this because last I check your focus was solely on the Watchtower, for if you did care about the child abuse issues than your comment would have been regarding all children not just children from a  single group, obliviously a single tarted religious group for all your questions and comments in your first post was directed to the Watchtower only or do you not recall what you even posted?

For we were talking about solely child abuse, we wouldn't be focused solely on a religion, let alone a religious group, but even if outside things are mentioned, people who read things are aware of things and do not jump to claims and assumptions of others over what is true.

It is agreeable that child abuse is a problem. But some people do not understand that, which I have said time and time again to which some seem to ignore it, is a worldwide global issue when it comes to violence and sexual immorality, this includes child abuse. It takes place in schools, religions, clubs, even businesses that there to support children, sports, etc. An example would be us Unitarians having someone from among our denominations being arrested due to child abuse: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/nosacredcows/2017/08/red-pill-minister-gets-almost-5-years-prison-child-porn/

No man or woman is unaware of these things and are well aware that predators of either of the sexes, be it man or woman, can creep their way into such clubs and organizations in order to get their hands on children - Plus, since we are talking about religion and child abuse, hence the thread, you have to educate yourself and understand on how the law works, when it comes to things such as religious law, secular law, as well as how the church/state operate if they are separate. Most of the time, such instances take place in the household of the victim as well.

In addition to that, some would just advise the victim and or the victim's parents to seek out the aid of the police for no one is stopping them from doing so, for, as I said time and time again also, some people will make note, but will not get involved (Bystander Effect), in turn, just offer advise in what to do next. Be it relatives, friends, peers, etc. Churches are known to handle things internally, especially when it comes to their community of those who share the faith, so it does not opt them out either - for the only thing they can do at times is just advise you and or the family who knows of the abuse also, to take action.

Other then that, it would seem that people give praise to the ARC regarding the Watchtower, but ignore or act like the final reports and case studies of the religious group do not exist, for this information is public to everyone and the world. As for the Watchtower, the Final reports in ARC has given them something to look into, to better clarify the rules to elders in the faith.

But it is understandable, and there are ways to combat it, usually educating people on what these things are and how to handle them, to understand the signs of abuse and the like. For the abused have voices, yes, but a powerful voice is strong enough to dismantle an abuser(s).

If you want to fight child abuse of any kind, there are smart and better ways of doing it. Trying to bring down a religion isn't the best way of doing it, for what difference is there between you and the anti-religion, black flag and cross wielding, people who want to see all faiths by knocked down permanently?

On 2/25/2018 at 1:57 PM, Witness said:

Allen, I am so very glad to see you use the same scriptures I repeatedly share with JWs. 

John 4:24; Acts 17:24

We can conclude by the words of Acts 17:24 that God’s House – His dwelling -  is his Temple NOT made with hands. And that Temple, as scripture verifies, would be in the hearts of the anointed Body of Christ. John 2:19-21; Matt 16:18; Eph 2:20-22; Rev 21:14; 1 Cor 6:19-21  If we agree with this, then surely you can also plainly see the hypocritical teaching in this video.

https://tv.jw.org/#en/mediaitems/pub-jwb_201710_7_VIDEO

And this one:

https://tv.jw.org/#en/mediaitems/pub-pk_18_VIDEO

Since the Watchtower clearly exposes its idolatrous ways by calling meeting places, “God’s House”; basically, temples built with hands” (Acts 17:24), shouldn’t His true Temple/anointed ones question why God’s Temple is so defamed by substituting man-made buildings as more valuable than God’s Holy Temple made up of His "living stones"?  1 Pet 2:5,9

On the contrary, Acts 17:24 can easily be taken out of context by anyone, which you have just done easily, especially regarding that comment, for if we are to call a group hypocrites for building a house of worship, then all persons of all faiths are to be considered hypocrites for making temples with their hands and said temple is used for worship, if you take a shot like that, then you are taking a shot at all faiths, for was it not by the hands of men churches of all types are built, even the ones built by JWs? In addition to that the early Christians did meet in Temples and profess worship and servitude to God the Father, for that is where a majority of time is spent in terms of worship, as we see in scripture, including letters and the like being sent to brothers and sisters who do their worship inside these temples.

Another thing is regardless of the temple, the word "church" and or "congregation" literally means "group of worshipers".

Acts 17:24 points to this verse, 1 Kings 8:27, as well as the others but I will get to that shortly, as well, which reads:

“But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have built!

God is that great he cannot dwell and or be contained in something a man has built. This alone also one of the reasons why many believe something incorruptible cannot become corruptible. Doesn't matter how many temples of true worship man builds, you can't contain God in them.

Yahweh has stated the following in this verse:

Isaiah 66:1 reads: Thus says the Lord [YHWH]: “Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool; what is the house that you would build for me, and what is the place of my rest?

Continuing form there, we also see the following in Chronicles to the same effect as to what God had said, but these verses below speak of God the Father:

2 Chronicles 2:6, 18-21 reads: (6) But who is able to build him a house, since heaven, even highest heaven, cannot contain him? Who am I to build a house for him, except as a place to make offerings before him? (18) “But will God indeed dwell with man on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you, how much less this house that I have built! (19) Yet have regard to the prayer of your servant and to his plea, O Lord [YHWH] my God, listening to the cry and to the prayer that your servant prays before you, (20) that your eyes may be open day and night toward this house, the place where you have promised to set your name, that you may listen to the prayer that your servant offers toward this place. (21) And listen to the pleas of your servant and of your people Israel, when they pray toward this place. And listen from heaven your dwelling place, and when you hear, forgive.

Keep in mind, regarding John 4:24, that God is a Spirit, for he is not just the invisible Father, but also one who is incorruptible as well as being the Eternal Sovereign King. (2 Corinthians 3:17, 1 Timothy 1:17, Hebrews 11:27)

Another thing to note is that Jesus himself dwell in the very temple of his Father, sure it cannot contain God, but Jesus and those who dwell in the temple worship and express servitude to God, in addition to that, Jesus spent his time in the temples preaching the gospel and teaching the people about what God the Father, for the Temple was indeed a place of worship, a temple built by the hands of "man". For men at those times didn't just build temples for nothing, even those before Jesus was born on earth, temples for people to congregate in were met for worship, to offer sacrifice, etc. To ignore these things and not see the temple for what it is today clearly shows the mindset of the individual who expresses Acts 17:24 without even going to the bible to understand what it even means, but what to expect from people who quote but do not interpret, let alone thinking the scriptures have not been corrupted over time.

As for those dwelling in the temple, including Jesus, in addition to other temples with followers that dwell in them. What do they do exactly? John 4:24 pretty much says it all regarding their worship and to this day, this is what she, the temple, must do, for the church, the followers, are to worship God in spirit and in truth. As true Christians who have the knowledge of Jesus as well as God dwelling in us, we are a "A Living Sacrifice", for verse 24 points to Romans 12:1 (which also connects with 1 Peter 2:5, 9) that reads: I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.

You may want to re-read your bible regarding temples, the church, the people, as well as Jesus who was in the temples that were already built and the like, for you are being hypocritical here.

Note: You may want to read up on the history of the Samaritans, for they too have built a temple to worship God, a temple built by their hands. Another thing is when Jesus was a child, his parents took him to the Temple of his Father, God Yahweh. Anyone can see what took place as to what happen to baby Jesus there, but it would seem some Christians tend to ignore anything before Jesus' adulthood other than just his birth, but not taking into account of what took place after that. People, Christians, build the temple/church (House of God) as a place of worship to God in addition to teach, preach, etc, to consider this as defaming God because the temple was made by the hands of man, is hypocrisy. Read the bible, please.

On 2/25/2018 at 1:57 PM, Witness said:

Please, just reason on this.  The organization’s teachings of upholding and boasting in, man’s visual desires are a stumbling block to God’s true Temple – and to you, and all other JWs. 

WHAT AGREEMENT HAS THE TEMPLE OF GOD WITH IDOLS? THE LARGEST BEING THE ORGANIZATION ITSELF?  Rev 13:1-8; 2 Thess 2:1-4

 ^“But He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”  Matt 16:23

Man's visual? A church organization isn't an idol, however a church can easily hold idols and give more importance to said idols and not God the Father -  for churches who do this do not take into account of the Great Commission and even if they did, they lack, trust, I know from experience.

It baffles me that  some people do not even know what the meaning of an idol is, for an idol is an image or representation of a god used as an object of worship and or a person or thing that is greatly admired, loved, or revered (a person can be referred to as a god also). Idols can also be graven images and or objects, some of which that bare a pagan origin. Only a few churches do not bare idols inside their churches and or houses them, this includes the members and their homes for they too do not bare any sort of idols in their homes as well. For any bowing down to and worshiping an image, an object and or a man is idolatry, I believe I made it clear in one of my older posts as well.

About upholding teachings, last I checked, someone said something was 100% inspired, those who teach what is true knows that is false. A church will do everything necessary to teach what is true and do everything in their power to protect its members from false teachings, practices and traditions that do not belong in a church, something I already told Matthew6969 about in his own post regarding commerce inside of a church.

Lastly, if you are going to use a verse, use it in a way you interpret it and or a brief explanation to what you are getting at. Quoting a verse would get you are without taking it into context, something of which you have already done with John 4:24; Acts 17:24, as for the other verses you posted previously, why post Matthew 16:18 if you are not doing what Jesus says regarding the Great Commission? As I recall you didn't seem like a fan of it or understood it.

For if it were to be put into As for John 2:19-21; Ephesians 2:20-22; Revelations 21:14; 1 Corinthians 6:19-21, I already have a response for that, you may not like it pertaining to your comment of which you used it on, for if put into context and explained, it can be understood by even a young one or an early reader of the scriptures.

11 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Space M. hi,

 let us skip the words "prophets and prophecies" in both aspects, as inspired and uninspired  

then we have "interpreters and interpretations" - not inspired :)) of course, GB are not the only one spokesperson for god as G. Jackson clearly gave his interpretation or explanation about that issue  

 

Care to share some examples, let alone the church leader's comment since he was mentioned? In the meantime, I will re-check my other sources. As for the video, I pulled this from someone making a point in another Christian forum regarding church leaders who claim to be inspired and or uninspired, as well as those who use inspired and or uninspired bible verses to push what is true and or not true.

 

Any man can claim to be a channel and or spokesman to God the Father, the question is, from what they are doing, is it true or untrue, usually depends on the how and why one believes what they believe, which in turn, used to teach.

2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Footnote:

EVERYONE that follows the Bible's examples do better.

even atheists.

Surprisingly, there are a few atheists who would defend what the bible says, such occasions is rare.

14 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Since this is the case, you might rethink how you approach this topic.

Many of your posts would indicate - to the casual reader, which is what most of us are - that JW land should be re-labeled "Child Molesters R Us." But now you have agreed with my premise and concluson, which essentially is that children are 10 times safer in the JW community than anywhere else.

Can it really be that this is despite the headship of the present human arrangement? It is they who put the diet of spiritual teachings together through print, media, and meetings. Okay, if you somehow feel they are still messing up everything, then you could assert that children would be 15 times safer in the JW community than without them. But that is the factor that you should always highlight, for that is the factor with the most implications.

After all, were all Australia able to duplicate the success of Jehovah's organization, the country's abuse rate would be 90% lower, and they probably would not have felt a need to assemble a Royal Commission in the first place.

 

The sad reality is that regardless of one's faith, be it Christian, Catholic, Islam, Jewish, etc, the beliefs may differ by group/denomination, but to the world who are not as religiously savvy, not a fan of religion or worse, thinks that any religious man or woman is either a pedophile, a crazy person, an extremist, etc. For if one person of a faith and or denomination does something, people will blame the religion or the faith itself, at times, the group that the faith stems from, examples would be if a Christian does something or a Muslim does something, it is open season not on just the person, but the faith itself and the denomination, but most of all, the group(s) of which said individuals stem from, Christianity and Islam.

Outside of religion, it is the same with businesses, educational systems, and government and groups that branch off from these things. When a hacker somewhere in the basement of some apartment breaches a Wells Fargo account, every eye is on Wells Fargo, when a teacher does something immoral or violent to a student, eyes will be on the school and it's board, when the FBI let's watched persons run free who eventually will do a crime, government is to blame, but gov't always does something wrong.

I believe Truly True may have went into this in the past:

50 minutes ago, Anna said:

This whole story its extremely sad. It's a tragedy. When something like this happens, people want to know why, and when they feel there is something they can blame, they do. However, blaming a religion (that they voluntarily left) is only an emotional knee jerk reaction. This lady was obviously mentally very, very, sick. Why else would she shoot her two happy successful children and husband? (and dog). Why didn't she just take her own life? No, you cannot blame religion for this.

As of right now everyone wants to know what went down inside that house, we may soon learn about what went on from the suicide letter. The woman, Joyce Taylor, a friend of the Lauren, is quick to blame the religion when,

1-The family had left the JWs themselves so it is unlikely the church excommunicated them, especially if the whole family all left.

2- Joyce Taylor not only attacking and blaming the group, for her information isn't as credible as the Catholic family's say in this, for Taylor even said that Lauren was being targeted by JWs, which is false because no one would target someone for 5 years, and added that Lauren tried to break into a JW church, so to speak and false, as well as stating that JWs talked bad about her and her family's name, also false because she is stating such without proof and or facts to her claims, in addition to saying that Lauren was always depressed when she spoke to her, however, she stated she does not know what caused her friend to go over the edge, so it would seem Taylor is using the murder-suicide as a tool to attack JWs., making anti-JWs eat up the claims without further evidence. So technically, jumping to conclusions before the investigation concludes.

3- The Catholic family seem more in the right than Taylor, as well as those who spoke up about the husband, the wife and the kids of the now deceased family.

4- The biggest kicker now is, the weapon used, the gun. Where did it come from, had they owned it already or did Lauren buy the gun to carry out the crime?

5- Usually in cases like this, the killer chooses to do such crime with intent to kill person(s) and or animal(s) if they are given the chance before outting themselves.

We will find out ourselves soon enough. One last thing to note, is that the only reason shunning is in the title of most articles because that one of the earliest persons they went to was Taylor, who coined the word to begin with, what was overlooked by some people was that Lauren still had relatives that contacts her, and it was because of a relative the bodies of the deceased were found when police went to do a check.

Another thing I'd like to say is the first weeks of February, there has been a slew of murder-suicides left and right, including this one. One top of them all, we just had what took place in Florida High School, a shooting at the school.

Ironically, the talk of guns, 2nd amendment and the like is still being talked about and has not been talked about this much until after the Las Vegas shooting.

On 2/22/2018 at 3:36 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Because most of us, by definition ..... are AVERAGE.

Being average is nothing to be ashamed of ...

... but it's NOT a bragging point.

Some people tend to see average people as monsters and or not part of the group.

Like seeing a Storm Trooper and automatically branding him as an enemy, when really he is not of either side and just wants out of the fight lol.

On 2/21/2018 at 4:45 PM, Shiwiii said:

Why won't the head of the wt org admit that abuse is a problem within the society (yes, I understand that j jackson has in a round about way admitted this) and that they are willing to accept help to protect the people within the org? Is it PRIDE? The Catholic Church has offered help to the jws in the upcoming Holland investigation. They're been there and done that and know what it takes to keep on ticking. The government of Australia has given recommendations.  It appears that the head of the wt is more concerned with getting money, real estate, constant requests for voluntary donations, taking on the loans from local kh's only to make those payments by the local kh endless, special announcements and written articles on how to leave your estate to the wt (just make sure if its land that it is able to be sold), etc.  Why is the focus not on the problem that keep rearing its head worldwide? The governments of The United States, Australia, the UK, Canada and most recently Holland all have seen that the wt is not about to help the situation, but rather do their best to hinder it. What good reason is there for the obstruction of justice and complete disregard for victims or the countries in which these things are being investigated? How can one believe that this org is being used by God at all? Doesn't the Bible say at 1 Peter 2:13-20 to be subject to those who govern over you and by doing right you silence the ignorance of foolish men? Seems to me that the wt leadership is doing the exact opposite. 

 

WHY? 

I believe it was addressed, specially when you take into account the case studies and the final reports of the ARC and before that. What can be done is to educate the elders and better clarify the rules, as the ARC addressed this in accordance with the rules the JWs follow, which is said to be biblical. I wouldn't call it pride though, if you understood why the name of God is used by the group and not what to say in God's name you'd understand, it says it in the bible and even Jews and Muslims today know what it means, therefore, not really much a thing about pride, especially if one openly uses the name and or a transliteration of the name of God.

The recommendations of the ARC were address, even including what the JWs have learn and what needs to be clarified to elders of the church. Also Catholics offering to help JWS? Do you have a source to this claim? Catholic leaders are not a fan of JWs, in fact, they had a hand in the situation with the ban of JWs in Russia as well as Egypt. Also there is no problem with a church taking in money and or resources since it is to push out the advancement of the Great Commission as well as maintaining the church of where people come to worship, this also includes the material used. As for situations that can't be helped, it isn't limited to JWs, everyone has problems regarding abuse, even to us Unitarians, to be ignorant of that just only proves the response is to target a sole group.

As for justice, you should know what Religious Laws and Secular Laws are and how they are not always so mixed in well with each other. With that in mind of what thing that sometimes keeps a church from taking action, thus not really ignoring  Peter 2:13-20. In addition to that, there is also religious exemption laws on the behalf of state and government, you may want to take a look into that as well, since of course, most states bare some responsibility, especially in the United States for proof of these can easily be found.

 

Technically what you are asking of is pretty much one-sided the way you worded out everything.

On 2/22/2018 at 12:33 PM, Shiwiii said:

I agree it is about the money, but....................How can the average jw accept the words coming out of their mouths?

How can the average jw not see what we see? 

How can the average jw not understand that this isn't "apostate lies" or fake news when it involves multiple countries? 

How can the average jw put their faith in an organization who is robbing the local kh's? 

How can the average jw..............makes my head hurt that there are people being scammed and lied to but they refuse to research and think for themselves. 

It isn't about money, as you claim it to be, and with what I have dug into, and seeing with what they also do with their money pretty much tells the world that unlike some Christians, money is use mostly to push the advancement of the gospel, keep their churches well kept, and maintaining it, etc as well as produce publications. I am also aware of the whole apartment/estate thing, but it would seem that it is used by their members, especially those that come in and out of the states. Now if they bought a jumbo jet, have private planes, and selling bibles at nearly $200 dollars a pop, then I would be convinced it is all about the money.

They do see it, you see it and make it out as something as it is not, which contrasts with our last conversation about Jesus' birth.

Apostates of any faith bare strong hatred for a group,an example is they will gun for anyone who thinks otherwise or anyone who oppose them.

How exactly are they being robbed? Money isn't be used for to advance the gospel?

I am pretty sure people know this, and there are people who know when cross a line that shouldn't be crossed is a bit much. An example would be a locales in Warwick actually defending JWs after a failed stunt by JW opponents stopped by an ex bible Student, a Passaic county graphic designer, interestingly a homosexual guy who even spoke up, and all 3 of them were attacked by JW opponents, who blamed the JWs for ceasing an assault until the truth and came out and these 3 were targeted, threatened, and insulted, until a commenter had to even go to Cedars that the JW opponents have gone too far. In addition to that, local churches did not get involved for the very reason of religious/Christian infighting.

Plus if you answers to questions that will suit you, the best place to ask them is a place where people share your views in targeting a faith.

PS: You wouldn't want to know what the graphic designer said in describing the masses that assaulted her channel before she and the others went private.

On 2/20/2018 at 5:12 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

This is an addition added after rereading your comment, but I wanted to put it here first. I really loved your last two paragraphs. They make complete sense. Thank you. 

I agree with you on most of your comment here. I will have to get my head together, reread your comment, and come back to you slightly later in the day. I am not anti -JW. I only left the Org because of what I'd discovered regarding the Child Abuse problems. However, from what I've gathered online, the Australian JW Org handed over the documents to the ARC, The UK JW Org handed over the documents to the Charity Commision, but, the USA JW Org /WT or Governing Body, or their legal departments, are refusing to hand over, what might possibly be twenty years worth of child Abuse accusations documents to the Supreme Court of California. Now if the online news is true, this is costing the American (or earthwide) JW Org $2,000 per day in fines. amounting to, it seems, over $2 million so far. ( Unfortunately i cannot seem to find any updates on this, which is frustrating. Is the JW Org actually paying this ? Do they still owe this ? Has it all been squashed and forgotten ? ) But I'm going off course herre. My point was that the Org in different countries are acting in different ways regarding this situation. Therefore it is splitting up the 'oneness' of the Organisation. In my opinion it cannot be 'against the law or rules of God' to obey 'the law of the land' in this matter. If it was then surely the Org in Australia and UK have gone against God ? It makes no sense. 

No problem and your feeling towards something is understandable, you are among the lucky ones because when one goes anti-faith, they end up becoming anti-religion, and beyond that point becomes pure hatred and propaganda to attack the faith of others and or a specific group, at times it is done passively by those who repeatedly attack and or push conspiracy of a faith.

I am aware of the ARC and have been since the very beginning, especially 2012, which most people have never mentioned. Child Abuse is a global thing, in religion, schools, clubs, even in some businesses where children and or teens are present on the other side of the spectrum, you have people in today's world and society that promotes pedophilia as if it is something normal, pushing people to be okay with something which is obviously wrong, resulting in those with pedophilia urges to not seek out help and or act upon their urges. Now regarding the ARC, I watched and I read for all religious groups involved, even the Jehovah's Witnesses and how they response when questioned by the ARC members, as well as those of the victims, for anyone confronting the victim of child abuse be it they are involved or not is not an easy thing to do when the victim speaks on those who they wanted help from. In the end of the ARC, there had been final reports that have been made open to the public, regarding the Jehovah's Witnesses' final report, it speaks of what the JWs have learned, the actions JWs will take in promoting the safety for the children and even mentions the Two-Witness Rule, which was better explained and or clarified in the final reports document, etc.

I know about that one also, I believe it was $2,000 USD per day until evidence and or documents, any information of the abuse is given, $48,000 USD by the time of an appeal and the Campos situation of him hopping from one JW church to another, especially after his confession, thus eventually fleeing to the country he came from, Mexico.

Some documents were handed over, perhaps not as recent from the Linda Vista JW church, for it had showed that Campos' actions were known, but Campos himself may have confessed and convinced the JW elders of his repentance,  for Campos did state the following "He wants to return to Jehovah" as well as the willingness to face his victims to get their forgiveness, as what I am reading says. When even asked the church publicly, it is uncertain his victim(s) were present during that time nor were the members of that church were aware of his actions since he did not mention it, even when asking for forgiveness.

The whole Campos thing is a mixed back of skittles, so I will link it here for you to look at, for at least this source is neutral, going for either side, just stating facts, mind you, there is some words in this article that are not PG rated, so be advised:

Quote

A lawsuit is now settled between a former victim of sexual abuse and Jehovah's Witnesses. According to the court's website, the case is under a "conditional settlement." The terms and conditions of the settlement are not public.

José Lopez filed the lawsuit back in 2012, nearly 20 years after church elder Gonzalo Campos molested him and several other young children who were members of the Linda Vista congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses.

As reported by the Reader, Campos, who fled to Mexico to escape criminal charges, admitted to committing the acts to Lopez’s and another victim's attorney, Devin Storey, while giving testimony in one of the cases.

“I touched him in his private parts,” Campos testified.

Attorney Storey: “Did you touch his penis?”

Campos: “Yes.”

Storey: “Did you penetrate him?”

Campos: “Yes. Yes.”

Storey: “How many times?”

Campos: “More than once. I don’t know.”

In 2009, five other alleged victims sued the Watchtower and Bible and Tract Society of New York, the governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses, over the molestation by Campos and the Watchtower's refusal to act.

That case settled for an undisclosed amount in 2012, the same year that Lopez filed his lawsuit and a year before another victim, Osbaldo Padron, filed his.

Then, in 2015, a state court judge ruled that the Watchtower had failed to cooperate with discovery in the Lopez case. The judge awarded a $13.5 million judgment in favor of Lopez.

The Watchtower later appealed the decision and managed to get the decision rescinded and promised to produce the requested documents.

Meanwhile, a fight over documents was also occurring in Padron's case, the one filed shortly after Lopez’s lawsuit.

At issue was Watchtower’s refusal to turn over a letter from headquarters that asked for the names of alleged sexual abusers in the church.

But at the same time other documents had been released by the Linda Vista congregation, which showed the congregation and headquarters were aware that Campos had sexually assaulted young boys and a girl but still considered him eligible to return to the congregation.

“In our meeting with him he said he was very repentant for what he did,” wrote an elder at Linda Vista's congregation to Watchtower headquarters in New York in 1999.

“He stated that he wanted to return to Jehovah. He is willing to face the victims and ask their forgiveness. He now wants to obey Jehovah. Before, when he would speak to people on the platform he would not meditate on what he was doing. Although he needed to confess, he felt shameful and had fear of mankind. He would deceive himself thinking that he could continue serving as an elder. Now he realized that he could not change without help. Ever since his expulsion he has not abused anyone. He has read articles of the publications regarding his sin. He says he does not see or read pornographic information. He stated that ever since expulsion he has worked on having a relationship with Jehovah and the expulsion has served to strengthen him spiritually. He does not miss meetings, and he even takes notes of the program. He also said that he is willing to continue accepting Jehovah’s discipline.”

While the two sides continued to fight over discovery in the Lopez case, another judge issued sanctions against the Watchtower for refusing to turn over documents in the Padron case.

The Watchtower also appealed that decision as well.

As covered by the Reader, in November a state appellate court rejected the appeal, sending the case back to state court and keeping the $4000-per-day sanctions in place.

Meanwhile, as the Padron case was heading back to state court, attorneys for Lopez and Watchtower agreed to settle the Lopez case.

Lopez’s attorney, Irwin Zalkin, did not respond to a request for comment prior to publication of this article.

There is no word yet whether Padron's case has also been settled. A hearing is scheduled for next month.

The reality is, when it comes to most religious institutions, and or clubs, the handing over of documents/evidence and or its handling is always like this even in cases of child abuse, especially when previous and or older documents and or evidence pertaining to something isn't always found or like most areas if they have kept a database for an X amount of days it may or may not still be present there, putting those in question to turn in documents and or evidence of something difficult, so it is uncertain of how older documents is stored.

For the churches can teach, educate persons of the church, inform them about such, but it will be applied by people, especially parents with children, but those who is among the fold who have intent to do something to children will listen with one ear and what is said goes out the other, for their sick intent is strong. I say this because it is also a problem with us Unitairans, we teach about how to handle child abuse and the signs, but apparently it is still a problem.

Also it has not been forgotten. Cases take time, for the progress is on going and the more time it takes, the more details and information will soon be available public to see. The best thing to do is check back with updates ever week or so, perhaps a month at a time, for that is how it goes with situations regarding child abuse, murder, suicide, genocide, and unsolved mysteries, etc.

patience is key.

As for the money, I do not know if they still owe it for it was a lesser sanction applied to the WT and or had since ceased paying.

I wouldn't say acting different due to being in other countries, it usually depends on if they have the information or not, usually when a group and or business does not have up to date information of things, they tend to kill time trying to come up with something and or see most recent information they have, in this case, regarding the ARC not only did the JWs have most of the evidence and documents, but there physical proof of evidence is the words of the those in authority who actually had their say in the ARC. As for the $4k a day case, Campos had his way of trying to  talk his way out of trouble, as for the JWs they may have known something, but may not have any past evidence, only until later victims came forward, the recent information is documents have been made present, separate case, but the same abuser, with documents of another JW church, perhaps the one he went to, convinced and confessed to. 

As for obeying Law, Religious Law and Secular Law is a tricky subject, it doesn't only apply to JWs but for other faiths, and at times Religious and Secular Law do not always connected well with each other,  and there has been several examples of this already; for there is a point where religious law takes care of what the church needs and does and not always is secular law involved until some action causes them to get involved, that being child abuse should such goes beyond what the church, any church can handle. As so I wouldn't also say going against God for if you look into religious laws and laws of the land, the information is there. I actually had a link to some information, but I would have to go through my bookmarks to see if it is there still, which also applies to my previous comment about internal matters of the church.

On 2/20/2018 at 5:12 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

As for your last sentence, I fully agree with you. But, do we endure within an earthly organisation or do we endure alone ? We will of course be judged as individuals whether we are within or outside an Org. I do truly feel that the JW Org are right in many of their teachings and i can see the need for a lot of their instruction. but obviously the Org cannot be allowed to continue with it's wrongful course regarding Child Abuse / Pedophilea and some other issues. So for me its a case of, will God cleanse the JW Org ? Will God chose another Org ? Or will God help us as individuals to 'go it alone' ?  

Well the thing is the righteous and the meek will inherit the earth. I know the JWs preach this, especially in regards to Salvation. Some have said the following:"If you are not a JW, you will be destroyed" I can tell you right now that this is false. Because anyone who follows the bible, especially that of the Old Testament, since some Christians do not accept the OT or pretend like it doesn't exist, will know Salvation is for all persons, be it you being part of a religious organization or not, however, the main difference between the two is that organized religious not only try to shepherd their flock,the followers to be religiously strong and maintain their faith, stuff like this isn't easy, for people of a church go under strict discipline in scripture, and they adhere to the Great Commission, actually going out there to preach and make disciples, convert people to learn the faith, become teachers and they too make disciples, doing this as it is part of their life as a Christian, as did the disciples, as did the early Christians, etc.and this path isn't an easy one.

Then you have those who endure alone. There is no problem with that, but you are still suppose to do what Jesus said regarding the Great Commission. What you can do is preach the word of God briefly to people when you have the chance, but you have to preach what is right an true, for most lone Christians tend to teach what is false.

In order to make God known, you have to follow the Son, do what he does when he preaches and teaches, as long as you do this, acknowledging Jesus and the on who has resurrected him, in doing so when the end times come to a close, you knowing who God is, and the Son, and teaching others so they can teach as well will also inherit the earth. Unlike organized religion, you have to be bible ready and adept to what is written because  one can easily take a false scripture or doctrine and preach/teach that is true.

As for both organized religions and lone Christians, teaching what is true will cause you to have A LOT OF ENEMIES, followed by persecution and or being pawns of religious/christian infighting.

All in all, people who really follow Christ, and slave for the one who has resurrected him, will be favored by the Father, so do not let anyone try to trick you using scripture to get you into believing of what is false or those trying to attack you thinking that you believe in false verses and or doctrines.

On 2/20/2018 at 5:12 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

1. Many claims are being made (leading to many court cases) in the JW Org of different countries, that Elders were instructed to tell people not to report any child abuse to the police or any outside authority, as it would bring shame on the Org / Jehovah. Along with this there are also claims that people were threatened with being disfellowshipped for reporting things to the police / outside authorities.   And in some cases it would seem that people have been disfellowshipped and felt most alone as no one would even talk to them. 

2. Again claims have been made that the GB gave instruction that the Elders should not warn the congregation of pedophiles within their congregation. Therefore congregation members would not know they needed to be extra careful and they would have no idea who was 'unsafe'  for their children to be with. Remembering that the Kingdom Hall, though only being  a building and a meeting place, is supposed to be a very safe place for people to meet together, not only to give praise, but to feel secure and relaxed in each others company.  

So if these claims are true then the Elders 'hands are tied' and they cannot do anything of their own choice. 

1. These are claims of course because most if JWs and or any Christian tells you to seek out authorities, that is not withholding anyone from taking that advise, especially if the church tries to do something internally or not, and giving advise to do something does not have threats that follow. This is why it is important to find a conclusion to these claims to know if it is fact or false, in addition to that, it also pertains to what I had said before of some people just not wanting to get involved and insisting the victim and or their parents to seek out police assistance, especially since most child abuse cases begin in the household, usually by the Father. For what is true is that the Father of the household are usually the ones to commit these acts, and if the man isn't a Father, he will have access to children if he is a member of a church, a school, a club, etc. I would say women also do this, but most cases it is done in schools whereas the pedophile is the teacher, for women committing these acts in a church or club is rather rare, but the sad thing is, they get off the hook easier than men, thus proving the justice system is not only having double standards on race, but of one's sex and background. As for the churches, should any of the like take place, some will call the police themselves, others will advise you to seek out the police.

2. If the JW church elders have said that, it would contradict what they speak on child abuse in their articles. This goes with my first answer, so these are claims and I have seen such claims a lot elsewhere. Because if they know that something like this is a problem, they wouldn't inform the other church elders to stay quite about it. They may have tried to handle things internally, but it would seem that they were either not clear with the elders and or not explaining things right; going with the final reports of ARC. As for choice, it would depend on the elder, especially one who is better equipped to handle the situation. An elder who knows how to give advise and to counsel in regards of something vs. one who doesn't have a clue of what to do, having pressure on himself. However I wouldn't say they do not care for members of the church, for if an elder and or the brothers of that church is willing to protect the church by being extra vigilante of those who come in, that tells you something. However when it comes to pedophilia and child abuse, it is a situation that not everyone is comfortable of having such a burden on their shoulders, especially if it is the first time they encounter such, knowing it is wrong, yes, but knowing how to handle it and try to do some effort is another thing.

I would say the JW church can keep its rules, since the ARC informs in its final reports of the witness rule, which people are wrongly speaking about, I take the ARC's word for what it is. What can be done is JW leaders can work on a way to train the elders in seeing signs of abuse, and be comfortable with dealing with the situation as well as helping the the victim. They may not really get involved when it comes to having police involvement, but they can be encouraged should any addition information is needed, the victim and or their family can hand over the number of a trained elder to give the police further details, and until the situation is handled, the church can address publicly of so-and-so who has committed child abuse, or they can simply say that, in a PG way that so-and-so is no longer a JW, excommunicated. All in all, I would say, train the elders, and be clear about the rules of the church.

On 2/20/2018 at 5:12 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

I will add here, ( and this is what i find worrying ) that I had a case way back in 2009, when i reported an Elder to the Body of Elders of my congregation for something very serious and personal. Well, I say I reported it to the 'Body of Elders', and here is another problem, it seems my letter was only seen by two or three Elders and the rest of the Elders knew nothing about it. Anyway, I was called into the Kingdom Hall, to 'talk it through' with, what I thought would be the 'body of elders'. As it happened there were only two Elders present. One sat behind me and said nothing. The other Elder did all the talking and it was obvious from the outset that he had made his mind up about the matter before even listening to me. He did not even listen to my accusations against the Elder, it was easy to see that he was 'closing his ears to it all'. But what he did do was to say to me that I would be disfellowshipped if i did not retract everything i had said against that Elder. My response was simple, I told him, if he thought he had the authority to disfellowship me then he should go ahead and do it. I didn't wait for an answer, i got up and left the hall..... Needless to say nothing happened and i wasn't disfellowshipped. In fact i wasn't even reproved.

Sorry about what happen there. As with every church, there will always be that one strict elder and or pastor and said elder/pastors way of doing things and handling things for even in the church of God, some will tend to take their position with high regard in a not so good way. Seeing only 2-3 of them knew about your situation, they may have just themselves decided to handle it and or they are not a well so connected bunch at that JW church for it seems clear that only a small number of them knew out of the bunch, for well connected brothers tend to handle situations as a team, so to speak, but it seems that group of brothers were not as close and connected at all. I don't think he would be able to excommunicate you anyways because the other elders were not aware, they would raise question, maybe ask for the information that you handed in and or having you come in to hear what you had to say, which will put that elder who didn't give the answer to you in a bad spot, and that will make you the victor in that situation.

In all churches that practice excommunication, the action to excommunicate someone is to be address by all heads of that church, since the elder was not able to say anything, he must have knew that, for he can't take an action unless the other elders agree not only agree with him, but are aware of your complaint by the information you made present, so technically, he was avoiding shooting himself in the foot.

But yeah, not all JWs are lucky, for some JW churches actually have down to earth members and elders, some who are well connected with each other because of culture, an example I can give is a Swahili JW church, not only they share the same faith, they look out for each other as if they are blood relatives, well connected and not super strict. Because I am cool with the African community, I know a couple of JWs, one of which who didn't get excommunicated because of peer pressure to smoke, the only reason he remains is because over time one of the elders knew, and one of them actually helped him overcome the addiction. This was like back in 2013-2014, college/school, days. Sadly he does not live in America anymore, he is still a JW though, but the thing is about school, you don't have your friends living by you as the years go by.

Another situation of someone not being excommunicated was someone of my faith, someone close who had been dealing with issues regarding addiction and depression, he had since been cleared of this because the church leaders of the church were aware of this and I chipped in to help the person, as well as my Father, who is a helper at the church. But I can say for the others I know who have their own faith and or not that religious, one person I knew who took her own life because of the addiction.

But yes, some elders or pastors will always be strict, some will be strict because of rank and or position, but they will not really risk taking a decision unless the others are involved for they could well be risking their position. As for your case, the man had no power to do anything, pretty much a Shepherd gone rogue due to his position. Perhaps he has learned his lesson as did the other one who was present that time.

On 2/20/2018 at 5:12 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

But what i found out for myself was,  the Elders would only believe what they wanted to believe, and, not all Elders are informed about things taking place within their own congregation. Hence when I resigned from the Org, I sent out emails to as many of the Elders as I could. (We have a list of Elders and their phone numbers and email addresses). So I was sure that most of the Elders knew I had resigned.... 

We also have a list of names, numbers an emails, usually to contact the church members to see how they are doing, if they forgot something we let them know we will drop something off, provisions if someone needs, send information, etc. This is a common practice with majority of churches.

But yeah as I said before, each elder is different. Like a bag of skittles, you don't know what you are going to get the first time, or the second time, it isn't always the same,be it the situation position and or negative. As for that elder, the lesson is probably learnt that day. Also probably if you sent your information of the complaint via email, that would probably made your case stronger and probably avoiding that strict elder.

On 2/20/2018 at 5:12 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

So I have a serious problem here. Do i return to the JW Org, which would mean being obedient to 'men' / Elders / Governing Body that i do not trust ?  Do I look for a different Org ? Or do i just 'go it alone' and try to serve God 'my own way'. If i went my own way would God help me if i prayed to him regularly? I honestly do not know what God wants from me, but i do know that serving God is of the utmost importance. God deserves to be served, He deserves praise and thanks, and as you have said, we should stand up for the truth and truthful teachings. 

I hope some of this makes sense. 

The choice you have is up to you. leaders of a church or of any organized religion are only acting as shepherds to the flock, as Jesus had said in the gospel of John, for one shepherd to a flock and one flock to a shepherd, elsewhere, he speaks of feeding the flock, the sheep. You would be lucky to find a JW church that is 100% connected like a family by its members and or family, for those who connect this strong is purely based on culture of the people, including those of who are part of that culture of whom they preach to. You would be surprised of people of another race or nation that only speak to those who really know their bible an example would be, if one were to question you on the Shal'iach principle of agency that was used by the Jews in the Old and New Testament.

Another thing is you have to be careful, there is no own way of serving God, for that is a mindset and action you do not want to fall into because that can easily led one astray from what is true be it you are a JW convert, a current one or a former (this goes for non JWs and or people of other faiths similar to them). I say this because a guy I learn from who goes by the name of Brother Kel, he isn't a fan of the Trinity, nor is he a fan of Jehovah's Witnesses, however, he tends to defend them a lot because people assuming their teachings are incorrect, even address that JWs are lucky because almost everything outside of the truth of what the bible says and those attempting to learn the bible their own way will result in a potential spiritual danger. I don't see why also claim that that church leaders of the JW faith are like gods, for the bible says there is a shepherd to a flock, and the shepherd's job is to maintain the flock. This includes helping, protecting, and giving the tools necessary for members of the church to use to better learn the bible. If you do not want to be a permanent member of the church, what you can do is probably just go every other day and sit in the back, and when it ends, you just leave, this is common with people of other churches, come in, listen, then leave, but again that is up to you, another thing you can do is with your bible, take time to do self bible study and since you are doing this alone, you have to be strict with yourself to learn scripture because there will a time you will be tested by means of biblical knowledge, in some cases, history of Christianity itself, knowing scripture enables you to be ready for what is ahead, as well as those who will attempt to challenge you, as a plus, you can attempt to learn a bit of Hebrew and or Greek, to make you stand out should you are in a position to either speak of the gospel and or should someone try to trick you by twisting scripture and or attempt to accuse you of not knowing the bible, not knowing that you are well-versed in scripture and Christian history. Since you are a former JW, what you learn as a JW will also be a plus.

In the end, God wants you and everyone else to do what is right, he will also want you to follow in the footsteps of his Son, and like him, you are to endure because there will be trial and error ahead, as well as help others to not lost faith and encourage them to keep on enduring. Praying should be done 24/7 and continue to thank God, continue to ask him to bless you and your family, as well as to look out for those who speak of him, pray for those being persecuted, as well as those who seek forgiveness, all in all, prayer to God makes you closer to him. For being one with God,  the Father will also dwell in you just as he dwells in Jesus.

So continue to do good in God's eyes, just as the Son did good in his eyes, as did the followers who speak and teach the truth.

Edit: Also if you want, I have access to ARC information, since the anti-jw out there are not cutting to the actual facts and not really saying of what is true Also if I find any more information on the other cases, I will include it here to, since it is still on going.