Space Merchant

First I will say this, be it murder/suicide, stuff like this is tragic, for it is times like this we must not forget that imperfections reap consequences and unanswered questions.

As for the videos you posted, it is no surprise you use that of opponents of the religion who left out some details to the story itself, I did myself a favor by looking at facts of the story.

https://www.freep.com/videos/news/local/michigan/oakland/2018/02/16/keego-harbor-police-chief-john-fitzgerald-speaks-media-4-found-dead-home/110506376/

NOTE: Tresa Baldas track record isn't always the best, judging by her past works, and each of her works the reaction from those who made comment.

First off the bat, Keehgo Harbor is not an isolated area, in fact, it is quite a populated area, and the religious backgrounds of people in that area differ, especially when one family of the Catholic faith spoke up in this regard, even giving their say:

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The Tristanis said in one of their first meetings with Lauren Stuart a few years ago she attempted to recruit them into the Jehovah’s Witnesses. “I said we were Catholics and weren’t interested,” he said. “She accepted the answer and it was the end of that.”

Other comments/quotes:

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Darlene and Dennis Buck, who live a block away on Cass Lake Road, said they were enroute home from a trip to northern Michigan when they learned of the murder-suicide. “We have lived here since ’74 and nothing like this has ever happened in our neighborhood — not even close,” said Darlene Buck.

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Jackie Tristani said she found it all “scary” – not just the deaths but that something might have been going on in a neighbor’s home without her knowledge. She had tried to get Bethany a job at her workplace and her son knew both Bethany and Steven. There was never any mention or indication of trouble inside the home, she said.

“I would hope that if there was a problem inside there someone would have reached out, we would have tried to help,” she said, her voice quaking. “Maybe we could have done something.

“But you never really know everything there is about your neighbors, do you?”

Aside from that, comments made by others regarding what took place, although not religious persons or make known their religious backgrounds, they did speak up on the matter, and some of them already had known the family were formerly Jehovah's Witnesses, which brings us to the next point.

Second, Lauren Stuart and her family, were formerly Jehovah's Witnesses. For the articles around this story even states it, in addition to testimony of friend. The Stuarts were known as one of Jehovah's Witnesses because they were Evangelizers/Preachers, hence the previous quote/comment regarding people knowing of their former faith. But it is apparent that they were part of the Jehovah's Witnesses 5 years ago (2013), it is unknown as to how long they were one of Jehovah's Witnesses before they left, for even articles state that they left the Jehovah's Witnesses, but according to one neighbor, Joyce Taylor, stating that the family were shunned (excommunicated) because higher education is forbidden by the faith, however, the articles says they left the faith, so the comments of Joyce Taylor is somewhat uncertain because several articles claim that she is blaming religion. Another factor is the fact that prior to the murder-suicide, a family member, relative was the result of the discovery of the deceased family members by having a welfare check done by the police, so apparently excommunication/shunning from a church doesn't stop a family member from contacting someone.I advise you read up on "Police Welfare Checks": https://thelawdictionary.org/article/what-is-a-police-welfare-check/

Lauren had a wonderful and successful husband and 2 college educated children. Lauren herself had a modeling portfolio, and worked at an area gym. What was also brought up is that Lauren's husband, Daniel, was involved in some form of medical business in the Ann Arbor area (Ann Arbor's Center for Integrative Research in Critical Care), for he worked as a Data Solutions Architect.

They also seem to be really cool with the Tristanis, the family of whom Lauren preached to in the past, and quite close, for Lauren was the person to barrow things from them:

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The deaths puzzle the Tristanis, who knew Lauren Stuart as a “hard-working” neighbor who could often be seen working in her yard and remodeled the house largely on her own. “She would often come over and borrow tools – a saw, a pickaxe – whatever,” said Tristani. “She was always doing something.”

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Neighbors say they rarely saw Dan, but that the kids and Lauren were around often. 

However, neighbor Jackie Tristani says the family were quiet and mostly kept to themselves. 

Third, The police are also aware of the family leaving the faith and or having issues with the faith, but they did not make any comment. As with any murder-suicide situation, apparently a key element to further investigate this tragedy is present.

For the police have said that:

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They said Lauren left behind a long suicide note, but would not comment on the details included in that either.

As for Taylor, she said she had Lauren over for tea just a week before her death and nothing seemed unusual. Still, she thinks her friend may have been battling a personal problem that was probably exacerbated by her isolation.

Taylor also said that:

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She doesn't know exactly what drove her friend over the edge.

Another quote of her claims which draws speculation:

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Joyce says Lauren Stuart confided in her often and most of those conversations had to do with the pain caused by the separation with the church.

"The church, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, they were hog wild after them, just brutal," she said.

She says the church smeared the family's name, accused them of breaking into the church. And it also forbids any family or friends from association with the Stuart family.

There are also some false claims in the story as well as unanswered questions, which is the identical trend with each one read:

For it states that Jehovah's Witnesses banned, which I do not believe such is true because not only they encourage to progress spiritually, but they also encourage one to have a secular trade, which requires education. For one neighbor says that they were excommunicated because the church "bans" going to college and or higher education, however it has been stated that the Stuarts, who already had issue with the church they go to, left on their own, so it is unspecified if Taylor's comment on the matter is even credible.

Another thing is, where did the gun come from? Did they own it before when they were Jehovah's Witnesses, or within the 5 year span of leaving their church? Was it the wife or the husband that owned/bought the gun? Questions like this must have answers, especially with all the gun talk about regulations, laws, and the 2nd amendment (which I have been right about the whole time) that is taking place throughout the United States.

Another factor is the fact that fact she also killed the family dog, which is said to have been found deceased in a bathtub, which is rather telling. But we may get a clue to all this when information and details of the suicide letter is revealed after a thorough investigation.

One can understand where Taylor is coming from, but disrupting a church service isn't the best of things to do, it does no justice for the deceased or the community.

Now we have the suicide letter, but not much information is present for the only thing is that it has been mentioned, and it does exist, whereas the police themselves are in possession of. So we will find out soon about what was going on inside that house.

Lastly, the family seem to have been open to the neighbors, for the article states that most of the family were always around, expect the Father, most likely because he was busy with the type of work he was doing, as mentioned above. Plus it was also revealed that the family kept to themselves, very quite within the community, which has been stated by friends of the family, specifically the Catholic couple.

Other comments/quotes:

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Bernadette Strickland, director of the John Casablancas modeling studio in Plymouth, was among those who gave Lauren Stuart a shot at modeling.

"I remember her because she had enrolled in our workshops. She was very nice. She asked a lot of questions," said Strickland, who recalled Lauren Stuart being happy and having a good life.

"She looked like she had a great family and she was very attractive. She kept herself up so well,"  said Strickland, adding she was "very sorry" and shocked to learn of what happened.

New Haven photographer Brittni Beversdorf had similar memories. She said she met Lauren and photographed her in 2012. At the time, she said, Lauren and her husband had  just bought their home in Keego Harbor and Lauren was excited about renovating it herself.

"She was very friendly," Beversdorf said, noting she was "shocked" to learn of the woman's tragic death.

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According to interviews with friends, neighbors and employers, Lauren Stuart, after leaving the Jehovah's Witnesses, appeared to be set on making a new life for herself. She contacted modeling agencies and photographers to see whether there was a market for older models like herself. She also worked as a part-time personal trainer at the YMCA in Farmington Hills a few years ago and cleaned houses.

This is how she referred to herself in one online post:  "I love acting and modeling. I am a very passionate person and it reflects in my work. I am adventurous in nature and so I like a wide variety of acting and modeling experiences. I enjoy learning new things especially with good direction. ...  Life is an adventure and my goal is to die knowing I did the things I wanted to do."

Misc:

This murder-suicide is one of the couple murder-suicides that took place in a span of days, for there was quite a few thus far, with the end result being the same, the killing of an one's entire family before the killer turns the gun on themselves. This one is upon the several other family murder-suicides. All of them including one "key" factor which is pretty much obvious.

As of now, this event is still under investigation, and perhaps more details, especially regarding that letter, will be revealed in the coming days. In the end, such things like this is tragic, but it is another thing to pin the blame on something and or someone without all facts and information presented, let alone details that will soon be revealed to us. As for your sources, they need to get their facts straight before they wold pull a Honiton and or an Irvington claim and start pointing figures without further details.

57 minutes ago, Matthew9969 said:

There is no argument that there are quite a few con artist using religion as a front to live in million dollar compounds. But there are religions that do bring in a lot of money, but also put out a lot of money in charity. And to say Jesus wasn't into charity, I would like to see the scripture that says so.

Well the way you were throwing your rocks into the lake, so to speak, that seem to be a case since you began pushing out claims resulting in writing checks you can't cash.

In addition to that, no one said Jesus wasn't into charity, as Christians, we are to be open and willing in giving/receiving, whether we have the means to do it or not for we we have such choices to do so because we have free will, for God has given this to us, examples being helping out with something, donating to a church-only charity and or outside charities, buying resources for members of your church who are in need, using money to go help out in disaster hit areas.

This one would will probably rustle your jimmies since you are a contributor to Christian Infighting and don't like JWs, but a JW in CSE community has donated a bit of his money to help out a teenager named Anthony Borges, perhaps if you read what took place in parkland Florida just a couple of days ago, you would know who this individual is, 15 year old, taking 5 bullets to protect 20 of his classmates from a gunmen and thanks to his actions no one else was harmed; he survived, said to be in critical condition, but the good news is that he is in stable condition, as of yesterday.

But yeah, Christians should open to be charitable, for one shouldn't judge a person and or group for their choice in this regard.

Now then, yes, Jesus Christ is someone who takes no problem with charity, the giving and receiving to others, which is indeed expressing various qualities in doing so, HOWEVER, he was not a fan of buying/selling within the church, be it for a charity,  for the church, for the pastor, or the like, inside the TEMPLE was clearly forbidden. God the Father of the Christ was not a fan of this either. In English, since you didn't get it the first time: Not to make the House (Temple/Church) a place of commerce.

One of the reasons why I also said that: Some Christians will take issue with mainstream Christians who makes the TEMPLE [Church] a place of commerce [BUY/SELL/VENDOR/ETC]

I ask you this question (an obvious example of course): if your church is doing what it is doing by having such take place in a church, or any church for that matter that holds on to this "tradition" as they call it, and Jesus suddenly entered and witnessed what is talking place inside the church other than teaching, how do you think he would response? Or better yet, how would his Father response when he sends an angel to give message to the things he has seen taking place?

But it seems people have to baby you by re-posting scripture of what I said, which is in strong context/and connects with John 2:16 (Read your bible):

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For scriptures, other than the verses in John that was previously mentioned, what comes to mind regarding the selling (or buying) in the church are these verses Jeremiah 7:11, Matthew 21:12-13, Mark 11:15-17, and Luke 19:45-46, which describe incidents when Jesus cleansed the Temple. When He saw the kinds of activities that were being carried on in His Father’s house, He became very angry. Clearly, this was not what the Temple was built for as well as Yahweh's reaction to such regarding the Temple that bares His name.

John 2:16 points to these verses:

Matthew 21:12-13

Jesus Cleanses the Temple

(12) And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all who sold and bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons.

(13) He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you make it a den of robbers.”

Note: What is written is of the Laws that Jesus and the Jews adhere to which applies to the Temple (the church), and what is written is to be followed. Read up the first 5 books in the Bible to understand such Laws, or simply look at Deuteronomy for an idea at least of such written laws; Laws of the Jews.

Mark 11:15-17 (18-19)

Jesus Cleanses the Temple

(15) And they came to Jerusalem. And he entered the temple and began to drive out those who sold and those who bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons.

(16) And he would not allow anyone to carry anything through the temple.

(17) And he was teaching them and saying to them, “Is it not written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations’? But you have made it a den of robbers.”

Mark informs us about what is taking place afterwards in verses 18 and 19

(18) And the chief priests and the scribes heard it and were seeking a way to destroy him, for they feared him, because all the crowd was astonished at his teaching.

(19) And when evening came they went out of the city.

Luke 19:45-46 (47-48)

Jesus Cleanses the Temple

(45) And he entered the temple and began to drive out those who sold,

(46) saying to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be a house of prayer,’ but you have made it a den of robbers.”

We see here that what Jesus only does is teaching in the temple, nothing more, for teaching benefits the spread of the gospel and obviously, just like in Mark, those who were plotting against him to have him killed.

(47) And he was teaching daily in the temple. The chief priests and the scribes and the principal men of the people were seeking to destroy him,

(48) but they did not find anything they could do, for all the people were hanging on his words.

Now in the Old Testament, we have what God the Father saying something similar.

Jeremiah 7:11

Evil in the Land

(11) Has this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, I myself have seen it, declares the Lord [YHWH].

 

1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

AllenSmith:

I used to live in Malibu, California, on the Beach ... and in Hollywood, California in a "Hill House", overlooking Los Angeles lights and watched ships out at sea from my back deck ... from income generated by my own hand.

You NEVER know what you are talking about, and this is no exception.

You also never answer important questions, but attack the person asking them, as you have done here.

You are possibly a very fine Brother, among some I probably would not get along with, otherwise.

I used to live near and grew up by wonderful beaches and the food was always ready and fresh whereas when you walk in the streets, people were open to each other and always happy, singing even. The house were big, but all houses were big and luxurious looking in the area. Time went on by it seems Technology has changed all that, and being in the US technology seems to be the norm now, for even children nowadays don't have the latest action figures or toy as kids in the past always go for, but instead, the latest tech, tablet, etc. Latest video games, why call up friends to come over and play like back in the day when today you can play online with each other, not having to set foot outside of your home. Next thing you know, we will have machines cleaning our house for us, since the market for that is slowly growing.

But yeah, times were good back then, but I am happy I had the chance to experience it.

3 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

Could you please explain why you keep insisting all of Christendom churches are mega churches....I sure don't belong to a mega church and the church I attend isn't worth billions of dollars like the watchtower is or these other mega churches, why do you keep insisting all churches are mega churches and all pastors live like Hinn? 

And you guys have yet to explain why they had to build a highly secured luxury compound and still don't provide one dime in charity.

No one is insisting, for you are the one who brought up Billy Hinn and compare him to church leaders of the JWs, and what we did was response, nothing more nothing less, than you started to throw in "your church this, your church that", and I was the only one who response was made to your church was regarding "charity the act of buying and selling inside a church" because you stated that a JW told you that it was sinful to do such inside a church, and you assume this is just JWs when a majority of Christians feel the same way while others do it anyways and ignore scripture.

Plus it is fact and true, that Mega Churches do take in a large amount of revenue compared to most churches out there, for they have about 2,000-40,000+ coming in every week and if majority out of that number range who donates turns out to be a big number, this is the reason why it is said that Mega Churches is a Big Business. As for the Vatican, they have well over that amount, city blocks of people showing up wherever the Pope is, and revenue is generated from that, in addition to the money taking in by secondary sources such as government/state, etc. It is nothing compared to those outside of the Mega Church circle, however, some single churches tend to seek out money to better themselves than the ministry.

Second, every Jehovah's Witness have their own choice to donate to a charity of their choice, as do every Christian and non-Christian. No one is stopping anyone from doing as such because the individual has the right to manage their own money and choose to spend their money how they see fit. But never in a lifetime you'll catch them turning their churches into a place of commerce, as I stated before because JWs to it's core is still a Christian Primitivism denomination (Restorationism) for that is of which they came from (History of Christianity even makes this known). Restorationists NEVER reap donations by buying/selling inside their church (temple).  The Jehovah Witness whom you claim to have told you that was wrong for it to call it a sin, but, such an action is prohibited to even take place inside churches. You gotta start thinking if Jesus came to your church right now, because he is the head of the church, you think he would be cool with the church raising money inside their churches by selling/buying stuff and or fundrasiers inside the temple itself? He wouldn't be too pleased, and if it was his father, he would most defiantly not be too pleased with that.

For this is the view of majority of Christians who take to heart of what is said in the bible, not just a JW thing as you want to claim it to be.

3 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

So about the life and times of the gods of the watchtower: this is just a small example.

http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/no-expense-spared-governing-body-members-do-fly-business-class

Of course they don't live lives like the likes of Hinn, or Olsteen or other fake preachers. But still everything is provided for the gods of the watchtower, they are the key holders to the millions of dollars they control.

Now you are contradicting yourself, look at what you said earlier: Those 7 men you worship now realized how they want to live in Luxury like Benny Hinn or the Pope, fly first class, stay in 5 star hotels and don't lift a finger for the billions of dollars they control. Sounds like your jealous of them.

Now then, I know who Cedars is, I was the one of the many who made mention of his best friend (whom I had defended) being attacked by the people who seem to be gunning for JWs, for death threats, insult, and the like was side by the Anti-JW group, some things far worse coming out of the Anti-JW camp as the days went on by, even on the man's channel whereas he made private now to stop being harassed by Anti-JWs but they wouldn't stop after the damage has been done, if you do not know this, it has something to do with what took place in the Passaic and Orange County in November around the days the fascist group, ANTIFA was suppose to take action, which I made comment about even responding to you who supported this.

I said, also the video stated, the people's reaction to former religious members attacking a religion they use to be part of that was borderline extremist when it came to their against against the faith, in addition, it was also said that better ways of handling things. For it came to a point where even those sticking up for the man and JWs were subjected to being verbally too, to make things more interesting, Anti-JWs even attacked a gay man who considered that what they did was going overboard. The one who led a charge to attack this man was a London native, goes by the name TheGreatapostate and some other guy with glasses on YouTube, who verbally attack Cedar's friend and anyone who supported what he had to say. The thread I made such mentions of this event, which I made my comment on the thread that pertains to what took place, ironically, you were present, you, a Christian, in support of the attack that even the locals deemed as out of line, but I guess it further proves my point of some Christians encouraging Christian Infighting. You may want to speak on your pastor of infighting in the faith since you now reminded me.

Anyways, as for your source,

First understand First Class and Business Class are 2 different things.

That being said, the article speaks of a single church leader of the Jehovah's Witnesses. That single person is said to have had his wife with him also (so it should not be so hard to narrow down who is married and who isn't or any of them being present in Africa), as the article says, as for your claim you make it seem all of them are doing this, plus you were dishonest on saying they took First Class, when the alleged information states Business, which is far different from First Class. But now we know that this 2016 article is only makes mention to one who is married.

Now the biggest kicker here is Africa and going there in the Fall, and Africa has several points for end destinations all with different prices that change every time, and seeing that the cost as allegedly $4,500 per person (husband and wife), the factors you would have to look at is what airline they used for the article states that they are not going to jeopardize an employee who just called them in; withholding information as some said in the comments.

The season they took the flight on, obviously being Fall (September), a time whereas tickets are stupid expensive and can go up and down almost every hour, but still maintain high numbers and depending on the actual airline that is used. We also can see that most likely that the flight was Non-Stop overseas, additional amount to the already piled up expensive; for Non-Stop is usually somewhat of an extra pay.

The article didn't disclose the location, obviously, but the range of the alleged price points to either Lagos, Johannesburg, Cape Town,  or Casablanca around that range.

So for example if you were to go to Johannesburg, from New York to that location

If you take Non-Stop (sometimes 1 stop)

Normal-  base $966 (price ranges: https://www.google.com/flights/#search;f=JFK,LGA,EWR;t=JNB;d=2018-03-09;r=2018-03-13)

Prices: $700-$8,000+ (Coach/Premium Economy)

Business- base $5,578 (price ranges: https://www.google.com/flights/#search;f=JFK,LGA,EWR;t=JNB;d=2018-03-09;r=2018-03-13;sc=b)

Prices: $3,000-$20,000+

First Class- base $11,900 (price ranges: https://www.google.com/flights/#search;f=JFK,LGA,EWR;t=JNB;d=2018-03-09;r=2018-03-13;sc=f)

Prices: $11,000-$31,000+

For the other places it varies, but you kind of get the picture from one location.

Since it isn't Fall, it isn't easy to pinpoint the actual airport or attempt to do so, as for New York to Africa, I would assume this church leader and his wife had used John F. Kennedy International Airport, since it isn't that far off from Warwick. From there you can see the various airlines available there too, take a look, they got different colors and shapes: https://www.airport-jfk.com/airlines.php 

In the end, this is a one time instance with a single church leader from a source, who is mentioned in the comments to not be giving much information. That being said, it debunks the private plane claims, as some the opponents of the faith have said.

Lastly, I am pretty sure this leader didn't go to Africa to fool around. If the guy went to expand and or preach the ministry and help out his brothers and sisters in the faith, as the comments claim he did not, then he is advancing the ministry by spreading the gospel and assisting the church members as a church leader should be doing, not going to an all you can eat buffet, and spend days luxurious hotel doing absolutely nothing until time comes for him and his wife to return. For anyone going to somewhere, there is always a reason, no one likes wasting time.

You may as well through in the 5 star hotels as you mention, so I can look up the prices for that too, for those are easy because they do not skyrocket every season.

It would have been insane if they did use first class and went to Africa to not doing anything at all, which defeats the purpose of Evangelizing/Missionary work and stuck to wasting time than using the time to advance the gospel. Also surely you could have phone better than that, I can't help but think you pulled this link from a quick google search (literally), for it is the first thing on the list when you look this up. But hey, that is what Google is for, huh.

 

4 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/204568/wealth-watch-tower-bible-tract-society-uk

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/43014/watchtower-34th-biggest-company-ny

Now then you should know these sources you pulled is very, very outdated. Thought you might go for something recent than 1-shot google searches of anything attempting to further your claims which are rather weak, so to speak.

The first one is about 7 years old (for as of right now it is 2018 if no one here has noticed). Its focus is about the UK churches of JWs who have accumulated 4 million pounds (4,000,000 GBP) or more, which in USD is about $5,580,360.00 (roughly 5,000,000$ USD+) possibly more for in that same thread they go way back, however, the numbers still sit in the million dollar ranges and most likely could have gone up by then. Plus mind you, this is the same website where one of its members originated from who claims that "Jehovah's Witnesses have/own weapon stashes and ammunition inside their churches hidden away, believing in some guy named Fearon who had mentioned this" this was during the whole Russian situation that took place. (I got proof of this comment too before the user deleted everything she said).

Your second link is even older.15 years old. The JWs at the time didn't have JW.org, they had Watchtower.org, so you did yourself a favor by digging up a thread with a prehistoric website link that has since ceased its function. Anyways, this goes hand in hand with the above of how those response in the comment section.

In all 3 links one thing mentioned as a main focus, especially the comments, is regarding JWs and charity and or donating. When the reality here is, spreading the gospel, is indeed a charity, for one doesn't have to build a school, hospital, start a mini-org for children, etc.

For example, I can be tyrant religious fanatic and build schools an orphanages under my name, and yet I am still a ruthless and bad person, but in your eyes, me contributing as such automatically clears me of my sins when I still do as such, especially if I continue to do what I do and act as a foolish man to my church and to the public.

Anyways, one can do those things for it is a choice, which is understandable for you and everyone around here, because God gave us Free Will, but people of a faith do not necessarily have do those things, for again, their choice, plus some take not being part of the world with sheer seriousness so they stick to building churches only for that is vital to expanding the gospel and to spread it out even more and if they have a singular charity thing going on within their church via donations, no one is stopping them from doing so if the money is going towards something positive for God's Word and or the benefit of the church.

For donating does contribute to spreading the gospel, for I am sure the guy who went to Africa, as I said, didn't go there to party like a rock star, most likely he went to a church of his faith, as a leader would do so to speak the gospel to the followers of the same faith. For in Africa there are hundreds of JW churches, possibly each of them containing 4-5 or more congregations with other languages in said churches.

So Church leaders and or Pastors are obligated to do as such, but there is a thin line between Christians who spread the gospel and those who preach the prosperity gospel. For as long as their money is used solely to advance the Great Commission, then there shouldn't be a problem or means of attacking people who do what they are suppose to do compared to some Christians who do not do what is needed.

Aside from preaching the gospel, as I said before, JWs do relief effort, which is also a charitable thing to do as do other Christians. During a disaster, it is common for them, as do others, to go and help out their brothers and sisters, as well as anyone else who is in need. Some Christians do not boast to the news or the social media of helping out, they just do it because they see it is the right thing to do. But sadly when another guy does it is seen as normal, but when a group does it, it is considered propaganda, so in a way, people can be hypocrites with this mindset.

So the thing is, Spiritually, they are doing a charity when it comes to the Great Commission and physically, they will help out if given the chance, which you claim as with your hate-parade that they do not do anything with their time and or money to benefit people.

An outsider can see the lies of someone who shows hate to a group and it can be seen from you here.

4 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

So I would like you to back up your insistence that all churches of Christendom are mega churches and their leaders live like the pope  or Hinn/Olsteen, etc. 

No one said ALL of Christendom nor was anyone insisting only you said that, twice, attempting to make it seem as if others here stated such and no one is foolish to consider that ALL Christians do the same thing as the mega churches do, however, some churches do things for the money and not for the ministry, re-read the posts from your Benny Hinn claim and onward. The only thing said is that majority of Christendom (I also said "they are Christians in Christianity", "some Christians" and or anything pertaining to that) does this, nowhere it is said all Christians do this, but it is true and fact that even outside mega churches, some preach the gosepl for the money, and the money alone, a few names can easily be dropped here as proof, especially in the United States for such is crystal clear to those who really knows what is going on, for the prosperity gospel is not limited to the Vatican nor the Mega Churches, but also to standalone churches and or anything of the like, and it isn't big in the Non-Trinitarian space because Non-Trinitarianism is very small compared to the others, JWs are Non-Trinitarian you can see the list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity Under Non-Trinitarian there is like a few compared to the the others mentioned.

But what is true is that all Christians evidently in Christendom will speak on those who practice the prosperity gospel, and proof of this is everywhere. For I even said the following: " A fun fact is all Christians will speak of pastors of Christendom who do live lavish lives" as for my other comment for buying/selling inside of a church, that is indeed true because mainstream Christians are always doing this, therefore, it is an issue with some people who are against it, as well as those in Christendom who are also against this also.

Churches that have one having to pay a pastor to visit them, churches who reap money via tithing to benefit the pastor and he/she alone, the list goes on and clearly you yourself seem to be not aware of such things in Christianity itself when it comes to various churches and how they operate. Whether they ask for money or not, the biggest factor is whether it benefits the pastor and his fellow workers only or does it support the ministry? There's no in-between. or the choosing of both sides.

You brought up your church so I will say something once again about it, but I will not speak of buying/selling in a church this time because I already addressed this, and you pretty much revealed that your church is of mainstream Christianity with your earlier comment, thus, my response.

Your church could be operating as normal as can be as a few others, but there are churches that may appear similar to yours, but only keeps the church running to benefit the pastor and the pastor alone, as well as his employed workers close to the pastor inside the church and the like, for the money generated isn't really used for the spreading of the gospel, as a said before.

As long as your pastor doesn't use the money for something ridiculous, but uses the money to support the church and maintain it, to support you as a member of that church as others in it, and if they choose to give money to a charity should they choose to do so or not (in some cases they only stick to one charity and not charities of the world), then it is all cool beans.

I believe your church leader, your pastor, is a good man, family man most likely and just like everyone else, he is imperfect, and will do anything that is best to protect his flock. He may not have known any better when it came to mixing commence with the temple, for mainstream Christians are brought up by traditions of former/past members and are not really taking into account of Jesus views such or how his Father, God, views it, but some may be ignorant and truly do not know, so they are spared for this, but some know what the bible says and knowingly do this, these persons will not be spared because the Father in heaven sees them, for nothing is hidden and everything is naked when Yahweh sees us down below on the earth itself. That is why I suggested that it may be best to talk to your pastor about how Jesus reacted to what took place in his Father's Temple, as I tell other Christians this who try to convince me that doing so in a church is not wrong, when clearly it is if you have other Christians shying away from it or even prohibiting it, but some who defend this practice will only add more fuel to the fire should anyone read those bible verses and the history of those in Christendom.

An example: should your pastor use the money to benefit himself more than you and the others, then that is a problem, especially if the donations taken isn't being used for advance the ministry, dunno if you go to minister to people, for that is what a Christian should be doing, but without support from the church to do so, you are pretty much stuck like a fish out of water without the resources to spread the message of the bible. That would most definitely be a problem and of concern, the point of which I have made and will continue to make time and time again should the situation calls for it, for majority of Christians operate this way while a few from Christianity do not, who genuinely consider the gospel as a priority over other things.

All in all, the only issue that will not sit well with other Christians(I felt like I said this one too many times to you already) is doing events in a church via buying/selling inside a temple itself,period. For I had said this, time and time again, to everyone here, and elsewhere. One of the reasons why Christians and non-Christians tend to speak of of churches who take in money and do not benefit the gospel.

Other than that, the Word of God and spreading the message is the best thing one can offer, for some Christians do not have much but the scriptures only, others having nothing at all but the scriptures itself, unlike you, I have been to and seen Christians who have nothing and they don't ask for things either, for they are that God's Word is far more important than anything else when it comes to giving. And that Christians have a choice to donate to support the ministry if they choose, and they can donate to charities and organizations that they know that is truly helping others, as some will just donate to Christian only organizations and relief efforts, ignoring non-Christian ones. But in the end, it is choice, and doing so in a way that does not break what is written by law, in scripture.

In the end is all comes down to what is being done with the money and resources, which puts a very large line between those who are doing what is needing to be done and those who are not.

PS: Christendom not only consist of multiple denominations, even though some of them are false, but they consist of various groups be it of mega churches, small town churches, organized churches, etc. Read up on your history of Christianity because it sheds more light on what is being said here, if you want you can start with the 1st century and onward.

10 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Ridiculous is, as ridiculous does. You just solved your first ridiculous word puzzle!

 

Megachurches and certainly, the VATICAN has MUCH MORE, get over it! Your plot didnÂ’t work!

 

I agree, ridiculous is, as ridiculous does, for no claims have been established which contradicts what Matthew9969 who stated the following that: Now that we've established that it's ridiculous to claim the governing body, aka gods of the watchtower live lavishly, could jw's please stop spreading lies that all of Christendom's pastors, teachers etc. live lavish lifestyles, the pastor's at my church drive minivans, live in small homes, etc and don't have anywhere near the wealth the governing body has. 

For he still lacks sufficient proof to even establish any conclusion to said claims be made previously, thinking no one has seen what he said. A fun fact is all Christians will speak of pastors of Christendom who do live lavish lives, but you know, people like to say things and make it seem true  and he brings up his church when asked for proof of the JWs claims.

Anyways

The Mega churches and the Vatican break bank on the daily.

Mega Churches average between 2,000 to 40,000 members per attendance, either weekly or monthly, these are just estimated numbers so it may be more. The thing is, I attended a Mega Church once in my life, the only reason was because I and a friend were taking care of someone and that someone just happen to not tell us where she was going until we got there (it's a trap), and that left me in a position to go to one. The experience was "meh" because I knew the scriptures and I didn't feel like being in that place, and I had woman next to me screaming JESUS while clapping every 15 seconds, had the feeling like I was at a football stadium indoors.

All jokes aside, from memory, they had a lot seats, possible more i some other area of the church, that day it was packed so probably 10,000+, and every hour or so there was a man or woman with collection boxes walking around and people just throw money at them.

This is a list of the ones in the United States alone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_megachurches_in_the_United_States

Megachurches alone tend to have a lot of members day in and day out so money is generated via tithing rather quickly, now if combined, they pretty much surpass.

Now the Vatican is another monster on its own, it is worth like $10 billion to $15 billion or more: http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,833509,00.html

As for their members, the head count is hard to find, it varies, but from pictures alone and any recent event they hold, be it in where the Vatican is located, in some part of Europe, the US, etc, there will always be a flood of people that crowds around a single man, who is surrounded by lethal guards that tend to be underestimated by their "clown-like clothing".

What I do know is that in the US, the pope drew in a lot of people, and the event he host had thousands upon thousands of people in attendance, while you have other Christians who appear in opposition to counter the event, for they didn't attend for the pope, they attended to tell people to get away from what is going on.

The thing is when it comes to Christianity itself, what is outside of Non-Trinitarianism surpasses Non-Trinitarianism I say this because of the reaction of most Christians who do not know what Non-Trinitarian Christianity is as well as the fact that it is put a small coin compared to massive movement of mainstream Christianity, who often shoot down anything or anyone who teaches something different from them.

2 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

So please provide proof that the pastors at my church 

So please provide proof that the pastors at my church live as lavishly at Benny Hinn or your governing body. And I don't attend  mega church.

I never asked for your church, nor do I care of it right now, because it does not pertain to what needs to be met here. What I care about right now is your claims. I asked you for proof of your claims regarding JW leaders going to 5 star hotels, living lavish lives, and the like because right now I see a guy who is talking a lot, but lacks sufficient proof to any claim he (you) had made, dancing around questions to something said isn't best for one's resolve. This should be a lesson for you, for if you say something, back it up, or remain silence and not say anything at all that would put you in a predicament to possibly lash out. For I roll, is that any claims made there has to be proof for it.

But I will ask you again, you can use the Benny Hinn example because anyone who speaks about Benny Hinn, will give proof of Benny Hinn, it is not that hard. But right now I will say it again, regarding your claims about the lifestyle, the hotels, taking 1st class flights from point A, B to C, etc, can you prove proof to what you said?

And no, I don't have a governing body or anyone that works for me if you want to go that route, so that claim of yours "your governing body" had already been kicked out the door before it even set foot in space merchant airspace. As for Benny "Healing Hands" Hinn and pals, obvious you can see I am against a prosperity gospel that is seen as a doctrine to follow for pastors of this day and age, so no, not a fan of him. So 2 birds with one stone to whatever you are trying to sell.

2 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

Why do kingdom halls have collection boxes and their conventions credit card collection machines? The watchtower just sold over 1 billion dollars worth of realestate, why do they need to collect credit card numbers?

Ok, but last I checked, JWs, who originated from and like from most Restorationist (or Christian Primitivism) do not "buy/sell" inside their churches, they have boxes, plates, websites and or "go fund me" and or something to collect donations, some people use bags or bottles (glass or plastic). In my country, they'll use wrap towels to make it look like a large cloth to collect money should one choose to donate to a church. Again, tithing if you want to call it that. None of them are doing what Jesus got angry over, and I hope you take the scriptures seriously that I provided, share it with your pastor if you want to because I guarantee most mainstream Christians do not really look that those passages, evident in Christendom today because they sugar coat it for there is a major difference to doing charitable works vs making a temple of worship a place of commerce for we know which one Jesus and is Father would not be so pleased with, as my above examples and scripture already made that obvious.

Do they sell real-estate in their churches though and does the money go towards advancement of the Great Commission or not? Since you did say the following: The watchtower just sold over 1 billion dollars worth of realestate, why do they need to collect credit card numbers?

2 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

Other religions divulge their worth...why does the Gods of the watchtower hide their worth?

You'd be surprised, so religions do not make their worth known, some choose to do so, some do not. Even us Unitarians, some within our denominations have that choice to disclose their worth, while others do not. Ironically, this does not only happen in religious institutions, but others within the educational systems, as well as business, examples being, I use to work for Barclay's Capital, a financial/business institution, somewhat of a part timer. They hide their real worth/revenue because of their competition being other banks, they have a choice to keep private and or make public of what they generate, no one is forcing them to make private things public vice versa for anyone else.

So this claim here is a weak argument, thus you do not have the high ground at all.

Lastly, a bit off-topic, I advise you go read the bible (whichever you use) because what I am seeing from you is a person who has a strong disdain for not other Christians faiths, just this one, and you egg on claims that you can't even prove, which pretty much shows in the way you comment. Learn what hate is, and learn to cease such from yourself or you can ask your pastor in your church.

1 John 2:9,11; 4:20; 3:15

As a guy from CSE Christian community, it is normal to call out people on this regardless of their denomination for when such is very obvious it has to be said, and I will do it here too if need be, you are not the first nor the last.

That being said:

When making claims, be prepared to show proof, be it brief or detailed so it supports what is brought up by one's very mouth and or message. Making claims and not showing anything for what is said, not only makes one a suspected lair, but shows one pushing dishonesty out of spite to either get and or entice a reaction (trolling) and or trying to sound right without nothing to show for it (empty handed). The best thing one can do is remain silent or don't say anything at all that would put one in the spotlight, and may result in someone getting "burned and rinsed", as they say at the corner for any dishonesty that is present.

3 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

I wasn't the one to use John out of context....could you please provide me proof that the pastors of my church live lavish lifestyles or live in billion dollar compounds like the governing body?

You did use John 2:16 somewhat out of context for you stated the following: And you take John 2:16 out of context which show's you have very little clue as to how some churches raise money, where as in John people were ripping poor people off by selling sacrificial animals at higher prices. As if the group only take in money to benefit themselves only, more so over that of their church, resources for ministering, to people their congregation and the like, for that is what money donations should be used for, to benefit first the church and the people of the church (congregation).

Religious Church organizations are known to take in money, which is true, what what makes or breaks it for some people is how the money is used and what is it used for mostly, hence why I explained John 2:16 fully because any man who goes into a church and or is head of a church to use money donations for personal things more than the church itself, its members and resources, than that would reflect of those who sold items in the Temple, and how Jesus responded to such. One doesn't have to be part of a religion to understand the difference between churches using money for personal gain vs churches who use money to push their teachings via minister and keep their church alive.

As for your other claim, why should I be in the position to know what the JW church leaders live or use the money?

It has already been said that these men stay at the homes of Christian followers of the faith and or in other branches that is connected with the Watchtower, which seems to be the case because Jehovah's Witnesses are everywhere, and hospitality is now alien to them when it comes to sharing resources and or even their homes with another brother/sister of the faith, after all Christians should be hospitable.

What you need to answer for is your claims for you stated that:

I'm asking you for proof:

For you said

[1] They stay at 5 star hotels and take first class flights

[2] You also stated that they live lavish lives, do pertaining to your claim, do they only benefit themselves and never the church or the members? let Alone using time, money and resources for the ministry (Great Commission)?

[3] You mentioned billion dollar compounds, are we talking about houses, mansions and or homes? If you consider the Watchtower HQs then that doesn't count because not only they reside there, but other members of the faith reside there too.

Because I see a lot of all-talk, but no-show right now. If this was a claim/response type of debate, the one phrase that could only be brought up for ones saying claims without giving ample evidence, that person is considered to be "Burned and Rinsed".

So the chance is given, you stated those things, so I advise you to show proof, not just to me, but to others whom you openly say this to on this thread.

3 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

Now that we've established that it's ridiculous to claim the governing body, aka gods of the watchtower live lavishly, could jw's please stop spreading lies that all of Christendom's pastors, teachers etc. live lavish lifestyles, the pastor's at my church drive minivans, live in small homes, etc and don't have anywhere near the wealth the governing body has. 

And since a jw bought it up, what is so sinful about raising money for charity through a church building?

Nothing has been established because you have not provided any proof to your claims, you only bring up things you said, but no proof to back it up. I was able to say what a Prosperity Gospel is about as well as provide proof to my claims, so what you claim shouldn't  be that hard to bring proof of since you deemed as such true.

You stated that JW brought up raising money for charity is sinful through a church building. My question to you is are aware of how some Christians view doing commerce inside of a church regarding charity, i.e. having items and sell inside a church, fundraising by selling various things such as food inside of a church, etc?

First I will say this right off the bat: There is no problem with Christians who give generously, their money and or resources, but it doesn't always make it to charitable causes. In addition, some Christians do take issue with the idea or action of buying/selling of items, food, etc inside a place of worship (Temple/Church), for "She" [The Church] is only a place of worship and teaching, as well as anything regarding to advance the missionary of which Jesus told the early Christians to do. Which includes us also, therefore, spreading the gospel.

Believe it or not, there are Christians within Christianity who have not done any sort of charity work inside of their church in an attempt to show people that they are giving, show off, and the like because anyone can show off that they "care" by doing such. Others just tend to stick to what they can give. I am a Unitarian, and out of most of the Unitarian denominations, some do not do commerce of any sort inside a church, ever,  and there is a obvious reason for that, as for the Primitive Christianity folk, not only they avoid doing commerce in a church, they do not go to charities of other churches, taking it a step further. If we must do something, all we do is donate money support the ministry, in addition, we have a choice to donate to charities online or elsewhere, but never done so in a church at all, plus there are some charities that are a bit sketchy and is to be avoid (The Red Cross Organization being an example).

The most important thing Christians consider as "charitable" is by expressing their faith and their love for God to others, for they consider teaching the scriptures as the greatest charity work, especially when it comes to Christians who do not have much, and the only thing they give is what the bible says, so in a way, ministering via missionary work, meeting people who want to know about God, spreading the gospel is considered as a charity, for such benefits not just you, but others, spiritually.

For this is what the Son of God says: Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, - Matthew 28:19

That is considered important, and that is what the Son of God told his disciples to do, in turn, their students, and eventually us, who take into account scripture, for even a poor man who knows the bible can spread the gospel, for he knows how it means to him, and the joy in brings in doing so, and I heard quite experiences that I can share regarding that, especially in the Caribbean, as well as my family's home, Belize.

Other then that, some Christians may or may not even do charities inside of their churches anyways because what they will think about is the merchants in the temple, they will probably go to a park or something to do such, and other times, some church churches do not do literal charities at all, but they are not stopped from donating their money to some charities with what they have.

But yeah, you are open to do whatever you want, but to mix commerce and the church is something that is not just a JW thing, for it is somewhat of an issue with those who do it vs those who don't do it. Aside from that, there is no problem with giving to others, for we as Christians are to be open and hospitable to give to people, be it of our faith and or those outside of the faith.

So to bash on one faith who don't  do charities inside of their church is being hypocritical, if other churches adhere to what took place in what John 2:16 says: Take these things away; do not make my Father’s house a house of trade.

So that is the reason why some consider it as something wrong. if you got a problem with it, then you have half several groups of Christendom to deal with including the JWs.

As for the Jehovah's Witnesses, aside from their spreading of the gospel, they are known for relief efforts, which helps out members of their church as well as others who may be in need, an example would be Mexico, Puerto Rico and Texas, being the recent areas hit by disasters.

So let's see what the bible says:

For scriptures, other than the verses in John that was previously mentioned, what comes to mind regarding the selling (or buying) in the church are these verses Jeremiah 7:11, Matthew 21:12-13, Mark 11:15-17, and Luke 19:45-46, which describe incidents when Jesus cleansed the Temple. When He saw the kinds of activities that were being carried on in His Father’s house, He became very angry. Clearly, this was not what the Temple was built for as well as Yahweh's reaction to such regarding the Temple that bares His name.

John 2:16 points to these verses:

Matthew 21:12-13

Jesus Cleanses the Temple

(12) And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all who sold and bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons.

(13) He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you make it a den of robbers.”

Note: What is written is of the Laws that Jesus and the Jews adhere to which applies to the Temple (the church), and what is written is to be followed. Read up the first 5 books in the Bible to understand such Laws, or simply look at Deuteronomy for an idea at least of such written laws; Laws of the Jews.

Mark 11:15-17 (18-19)

Jesus Cleanses the Temple

(15) And they came to Jerusalem. And he entered the temple and began to drive out those who sold and those who bought in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money-changers and the seats of those who sold pigeons.

(16) And he would not allow anyone to carry anything through the temple.

(17) And he was teaching them and saying to them, “Is it not written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations’? But you have made it a den of robbers.”

Mark informs us about what is taking place afterwards in verses 18 and 19

(18) And the chief priests and the scribes heard it and were seeking a way to destroy him, for they feared him, because all the crowd was astonished at his teaching.

(19) And when evening came they went out of the city.

Luke 19:45-46 (47-48)

Jesus Cleanses the Temple

(45) And he entered the temple and began to drive out those who sold,

(46) saying to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be a house of prayer,’ but you have made it a den of robbers.”

We see here that what Jesus only does is teaching in the temple, nothing more, for teaching benefits the spread of the gospel and obviously, just like in Mark, those who were plotting against him to have him killed.

(47) And he was teaching daily in the temple. The chief priests and the scribes and the principal men of the people were seeking to destroy him,

(48) but they did not find anything they could do, for all the people were hanging on his words.

Now in the Old Testament, we have what God the Father saying something similar.

Jeremiah 7:11

Evil in the Land

(11) Has this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, I myself have seen it, declares the Lord [YHWH].

One would bring up the argument that they do charities inside the church as means of worship, however, we see in Jesus' case that the only thing that done inside the temple is just pure worship or anything regarding to advance such worship, nothing in regard to buying and or selling, no matter how you try to sugar coat it.

So, such is not limited to just JWs, but other Christians as well, I hope this time you learn of why some Christians have a stance on this, for they consider something of "wrong doing" there is always a "reason why they think this is".

Lastly, there are indeed examples in scripture of donating though or as they say it in, tithing - Malachi 3:10; Deuteronomy 26:12; Matthew 23:23, another example would be how like The Levites contributed to the Aaronic priesthood, in turn supporting them. It is percentage given or paid as tribute, most for means of religious purposes, but it isn't always required of Christians.

So in short

• Christians can donate to charities and the like, but it isn't a good idea to sully the "head of the church" by buying and selling inside a church, period. In addition, no one is stopping you from donating money that benefit the ministry and or teaching of the gospel, as for resources, they can easily be gathered to be donated to whichever group you choose or to the very brothers or sisters in your church who is in need.
• Christians at times do not have anything to give, for they consider teaching the word of God just as Jesus have as a best charitable work.
• As Christians, it is vital for us to take into account scripture, and not ignore parts of it, especially in regards to Jesus and or his Father, in addition to the examples left behind by those who preached the gospel.

I got more to say, but I guess I'll just leave it at that.

@AllenSmith

Not to mention Medical Volunteer Saying Joel Osteen had armed guards refusing access to donations after the church reopened. The Prosperity Gospel at it's finest during that time.

 

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I think in all fairness it can easily be seen that there was an earthly organisation of Christians from the time of Jesus onwards. 

What we think of the JW Org / WT GB now is of course a totally different matter. I do not think they are inspired of God, and I think they have jumped forward as and when they see fit, not relying on God to guide them. As for the Child Abuse, that seems to prove to me that the JW Org is not serving God properly.

However, I still feel that God will have a clean Organisation of some sort  before Armageddon. I also believe that some JW's will get through Armageddon and some who are not JW's will also get through. It will be an individual judgement.

I understand your feeling for that. However, there is an earthly organization, because what we need to remember what is said regarding Matthew 16:18, that informs us of the following "Peter Confesses Jesus as the Christ".

The verse says: And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

I am going to quote an Egyptian Girl, a Christian, that mentioned this because it was brought up in a Christian forum sometime ago, and I figured it is interesting regarding a religious organization on earth.

Quote

Peter evidently did not view himself as the rock or a literal rock on which Jesus would build his Church, since he wrote at 1 Peter 2 v4-8 that Jesus was the long-foretold foundation cornerstone, chosen by God himself. Similarly, the apostle Paul referred to Jesus as the foundation and the spiritual rock, 1 Corinthians 3 v11; 10 v4. So Jesus’s say and meaning on this to an effect, You, the one I called Peter, a Piece of Rock, have discerned the true identity of the Christ, this rock, the one who will serve as the foundation of the Christian Church.

Jesus said, but from the perspective of Peter, he didn't view himself as literally a rock until Jesus began explaining to him as to how and why Peter will be the foundation and or rock in figurative sense. That's why I referenced a bit this passage, 1 Peter 2 v4-8.

Some would say that Jesus was describing the statement that Peter had just made, that Jesus is "the Christ, the Son of the living God" as being the “rock” of faith that would be the foundation of the church.

Jesus foretells the formation of the Christian Church, made up of anointed chosen Christians, who as living stones are being “built up into a spiritual house, 1 Peter 2 v4, 5. Church is a rendered word from a Greek word off of the manuscripts Codex Sinaiticus (or within the Septuagint that is also part of CS) from the 4th century, which often refers to the entire nation of God’s people, Deuteronomy 23 v3; 31 v30.

In Acts 7 v38, the Israelites who were called out of Egypt are referred to as a Church. Similarly, Christians who are called out of darkness” and chosen out of the world make up the Church of God, 1Peter 2 v9; John 15 v19, 1Corinthains 1 v2.

The Bible speaks of the dead as being within unto the gates of death, Ps 107 v18 and the gates of the Sheol Isa 38 v10 (or Hell, Grave, Hades in other translation), that is, subject to the power of death. Jesus promises victory over the Sheol, meaning that the gates of the Sheol will open to release the dead by means of a resurrection.

The Lord’s own resurrection confirmed the truthfulness of his promise, Matthew 16 v21. Because the Church is built on Jesus (and Jesus, also known as Christ is the Head of the Church, Colossians 1 v18), the one who can release those in death, it cannot be overpowered by or permanently restrained by Sheol. Acts 2 v31;Re 1 v18;20v13, 14.
As passing through the gates of Sheol would imply Death. So what Jesus is saying is that this Church will never die, it will never go out of existence.
This also goes for those who may say Jesus may be referring to his death: Sheol could not contain him, and it will not contain the Church either, those who are called out to belong to Christ. The Church will never succumb with the physical death of its members and fail; it will never die, as stated before.

The thing is, there is an organization, because it wouldn't make sense for Jesus to come back and not gather those of his church, for in scripture,it says it exist and death will not prevail against it.

As for inspired, most Christians are not inspired, however, they tend to be guided by Holy Spirit when it comes to taking in knowledge of both God and his Son. And I believe I stated before that mankind is imperfect, Jehovah's Witnesses are imperfect as well, so how they handle things doesn't justify that they are in the wrong, for if we are to attack something, we should be attacking the government, for they deem that religious institutions are open to handle things on their own, internally, and if they want, they can seek outside help if something is too much for them to handle, reasons why there is the term "Separation of Church and State" and the like.

But as for JWs, it may probably depend on what the elders says and how the family is to takes action, for if it were me and my child is victim, I would talk to the elders of what happen even having my child speak, and whether they tell me or not, I will go to the police so they can handle this, what can be done internally on the church's side, the elders,will most likely give some details on who the person is and I myself as a parent can see if so and so is indeed the person who did the crime. 

We also have to avoid any scenario that is Avenger of Blood-like, which has happen in our day and age (with either the church leaders being victim and or the pastors, or the person in question being a victim themselves, with either outcome being something tragic). There are reasons as to why some people do not like getting involve in something, so they stick to advising on what to do, doing small bits of investigation, giving you some information so that it can be handled outside of the church if the situation calls for it, if they believe something can be handled internally they will stick to that as well when it comes to something minor.

For someone people, even if advised, will often take action in their own hands with old fashion vigilante justice that reaps a brutal outcome that stems several consequences for both sides. Experienced Jehovah's Witnesses are known as pacifist in the eyes of Christendom, so it would be a shock if someone comes to them with intent to inflict physical violence because of advise to go seek assistance after something is done on their end.

But I believe I made the example before in another thread. In addition to that, those who commit child abuse, we have to remember they too are not right in the head, and some church leaders will either handle the situation themselves internally, or if done internally, they will advise parents to take action, and that's that, especially since most cases of abuse takes place within the very household of the victim.

And yes, all people who seek salvation by knowing Jesus is Lord and believing in God the Father, Yahweh/Jehovah/YHWH, can and will be saved. So it is better to be close to the truth than be far from it.We also have to remember salvation can easily be lost, so we have o be careful, repent for what we do. One of the reasons I am not among those who are going against JWs is because I am not for Christian infighting, for such action just makes us pawns to the world's system. However, as Non-Trinitarians, when Trinitarian belief speaks of things that isn't in scripture (accursed Galatians 1:1-11), as a Non-Trinitarian, be it a JW or not, you are to stand up for what is true.For if you know the truth,you defend it, and when you do this, you ill confront those who will defend a false doctrine, and will deem you a fanatic, a false Christian, a Cultist, a Zealot, because you don't adhere to mainstream's Christianity, but this should not worry you, for if you believe in what is true, believe in the God that has raised Jesus from the dead and stick to scripture, then salvation is already in your hands.

In the end, God knows who is for him, and by means of his Son, the righteous and the meek will inherit the earth, and gain eternal life because they endured to the end.
 

4 hours ago, Witness said:

This is long; please, bear with me. 

As soon as we place ourselves in the hands of a religious “organization”, men decide how we are to worship. Organizational guidelines will have already been set in place, with expectations established for its members.  The Bible already tells us how to worship – Jesus was telling the woman at the well how to worship – in spirit and in truth.    Through prayerful guidance, we realized spiritual freedom comes through faith in the power of God. 

“Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.”  Gal 5:1 

We have just one biblical account of a letter reaching to all congregations, concerning a major issue affecting the spread of Christianity in pureness.   Just one.  It was dealing with the transformation process of moving away from Jewish law that Jesus fulfilled.  Col 2:14; Eph 2:14-16  Does this give cause for the belief that an organization was present; that men “organized” the preaching work?  Paul and Barnabas addressed a prevalent issue, happening in Antioch and in Jerusalem.  Obviously, the brothers in Jerusalem hadn’t taken care of it until Paul and Barnabas showed up. Acts 15:24

“Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.   They wrote this letter by them:  The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings.”  Acts 15:22

Everyone was involved in the process, unlike the GB’s use of a handful of men passing decrees behind closed doors, concerning biased doctrine that has nothing to do with truth in scripture – doctrine that must be swallowed down without a second thought, whether sound from a human standpoint or not.  Matt 24:26; 2 Tim 4:3-5

The decrees that the apostles, elders and the whole church, settled upon:

We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. ²⁸ For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: ²⁹ that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.  Acts 15:27-29

No greater burden!! Did these decrees go beyond the things already written down in God’s Word? 

We have much proof that Holy Spirit directed individuals in the preaching work.

 “But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. ¹² For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.” Gal 1:11

“But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, ¹⁶ to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, ¹⁷ nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.”  Gal 1:15-17

Phillip was directed by Holy Spirit; Acts 8:26,27,29 as well as Barnabas, Acts 13:2

In these early congregation of believers, “elders” were the anointed ones, fulfilling their role as “priests”.  1 Pet 5:1-4

Mal 2:7 - “For the lips of a priest should keep knowledge,
And people should seek the law from his mouth;
For he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts.”

1 Pet 2:5 “you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.”

Have you had an opportunity to hear or read Fred Franz’s talk on how the early preaching work was accomplished?  If not, I think you will be surprised. I can’t seem to find the audio version anymore, but you can read it. 

http://www.authorstream.com/Presentation/minimoog-898174-gilead-grad-talk-59th-class/

Sometimes, even the Watchtower leaders slip in words of truth but practice the opposite. Jesus words can aptly apply during these fleeting moments:

“Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.”  Matt 23:3

CT Russell - "Beware of "organization." It is wholly un-necessary. The Bible will be the only rules you need. Do not seek to bind other consciences, and do not permit others to bind yours. Believe and obey so far as you can understand God's word today, and so continue to growing in grace and knowledge day by day." (Zion's Watch Tower, 1895, p. 216.)

"In view of these facts and also of the nature of the harvest work, and the addition. In fact that each one so gathered is expected to enter into the harvest work as a reaper, and will do so to the extent of his ability and opportunity, it is plain that the forming of a visible organization of such gathered out ones would be out of harmony with the spirit of the divine plan; and, it done, would seem to indicate on the part of the Church a desire to conform to the now popular idea of organization or confederacy. (See Isa. 8:12.) ... While, therefore, we do not esteem a visible organization of the gathered ones to be a part of the Lord's plan in the harvest work, as though we expected as an organization to abide here for another age, we do esteem it to be his will that those that love the Lord should speak often one to another of their common hopes and joys, or trials and perplexities, communing together concerning the precious things of his Word, and so help one another, and not forget the assembling of themselves together as the manner of some is; and so much the more as they see the day approaching. -- Mal. 3: 16; Heb. 10:25." (Zion's Watch Tower, 1894, p. 384.)

The preaching of the “good news” had great success in the first century. Matt 4:23;3:2; 11:5; Mark 1:14; Acts 20:25; 28:23,31; Luke 2:10,14    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+4%3A23%3B3%3A2%3B+11%3A5%3B+Mark+1%3A14%3B+Acts+20%3A25%3B+28%3A23%2C31%3B+Luke+2%3A10%2C14 &version=NKJV

Yet, in the apostle’s day, how far was the “good news” preached?  Rom 10:18; 1:8; Acts 17:6; Col 1:6,23; 1 Thess 1:8  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rom.10%3A18%3B+1%3A8%3B+Acts17%3A6%3B+Col.1%3A6%2C23%3B+1Thess.1%3A8.&version=NKJV

The “world” in that day encompassed all tribes, peoples and tongues of God’s nation.  Rev 5:9,10; Acts 10:34,35; 15:4; 13:47; Isa 49:6; Matt 10:6,7,23 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Rev+5%3A9%2C10%3B+Acts+10%3A34%2C35%3B+15%3A4%3B+13%3A47%3B+Isa+49%3A6%3B+Matt+10%3A6%2C7%2C23&version=NKJV

Where is the “good news” preached at the time of the end?

“When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.”  Matt 10:23

“Israel” –

“But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,  nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”  Rom 9:6,7 (Rom 2:29)

“But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.” 1 Pet 2:9,10

“And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed”  Rev 7:4

Matt 24:14  from the Greek Kingdom Interlinear (WT):   “And will be preached this good news of the kingdom in whole the inhabited [earth] into witness to all the nations and then the end will come”

Ok, according to Matt 10:23 the preaching work right before the end is to the “cities of Israel” – God’s anointed people.  The “inhabited earth”, “οἰκουμένῃ”, are the “cities of Israel” and God’s “inhabited earth” – “the people of God.” 1 Pet 2: 10; Eph 2:20-22; John 14:23

 “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 1 Cor 3:16

Rev 14:3 verifies “Israel” in Rev 7:4 above, is the “earth”:

“They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth.”

God’s anointed ones are the target of the end time preaching work.  Since the “Gentile” “man of lawless”/”ELDER” body has “trampled upon” God’s anointed priesthood, extinguishing all power of the “holy ones”, the call goes out to FLEE – leave Watchtower’s delusion, their false prophesies, sins, their idolatry to an organization as one’s salvation, behind.  Dan 11:31; 12:11; 2 Tim 3:1,5,7,8

 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),  “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.”  Matt 24:15,16; Isa 56:7; 2 Pet 1:18; Zech 8:2,3; Joel 3:17; Rev 14:1  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+24%3A15%2C16%3B+Isa+56%3A7%3B+2+Pet+1%3A18%3B+Zech+8%3A2%2C3%3B+Joel+3%3A17%3B+Rev+14%3A1&version=NKJV

The “holy place” is described in 2 Thess 2:3,4 as God’s Temple, which is the holy priesthood.  1 Cor 3:16,17; 2 Cor 6:16; Eph 2:20-22,10

 ^“Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, ⁴ who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as Godin the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.”

This is the sign that the Great Tribulation is at hand.  Everyone, will receive God’s righteous judgment, accordingly.  God’s anointed people and those who happen to be with them, are the focus of Revelation’s prophesy.  THEY have fallen for Satan’s end time delusion, his last piece of work to destroy those in Christ.  Gen 3:15; 2 Thess 2:9-12; Rev 13:1,4,6-15; 18:4-8

 

 

As soon as we place ourselves in the hands of a religious “organization”, men decide how we are to worship. Organizational guidelines will have already been set in place, with expectations established for its members.  The Bible already tells us how to worship – Jesus was telling the woman at the well how to worship – in spirit and in truth.    Through prayerful guidance, we realized spiritual freedom comes through faith in the power of God. 

Not quite, because there are those who are attempting to be closer to the truth vs those who are not and at times use what they consider as truth to attack others who try to stick to what the bible teaches, reasons why there is religious organizations to this day is because those who bare what isn’t from scripture result in a schism and or split, and those who take into account the scriptures end up forming their group, believing what they teach is really from scripture compared to others who cherry-pick or refrain from teaching what is true. For Organized religion also known as “institutional religion” is religion in which belief systems and rituals are systematically arranged and formally established. Organized religion is typically characterized by an official doctrine, a hierarchical or bureaucratic leadership structure, and a codification of rules and practices.

Religious organizations have been around for a while, predating even the Bible Students and various others, into the days of Rome and beyond. As for Jehovah’s Witnesses/Bible Students, they stem from The Restoration Movement (also known as the American Restoration Movement or the Stone-Campbell Movement, and pejoratively as Campbellism). A Christian movement that began on the United States frontier during the Second Great Awakening (1790–1840) of the early 19th century. The pioneers of this movement were seeking to reform the church from within and sought "the unification of all Christians in a single body patterned after the church of the New Testament. Especially since the mid-20th century, members of these churches do not identify as Protestant but simply as Christian. The history can be read up on here:

Restoration Movement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restoration_Movement

Second Awakening: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Great_Awakening

Note:

The Second Great Awakening, a period of religious revival that occurred in the United States during the early 1800s, saw the development of a number of unrelated churches. They generally saw themselves as restoring the original church of Jesus Christ rather than reforming one of the existing churches. A common belief held by Restorationists was that the other divisions of Christianity had introduced doctrinal defects into Christianity, which was known as the Great Apostasy. In Asia, Iglesia ni Cristo is a known restorationist religion that was established during the early 1900s.

Some of the churches originating during this period are historically connected to early 19th-century camp meetings in the Midwest and Upstate New York. American Millennialism and Adventism, which arose from Evangelical Protestantism, influenced the Jehovah's Witnesses movement and, as a reaction specifically to William Miller, the Seventh-day Adventists. Others, including the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), Evangelical Christian Church in Canada, Churches of Christ, and the Christian churches and churches of Christ, have their roots in the contemporaneous Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement, which was centered in Kentucky and Tennessee. Other groups originating in this time period include the Christadelphians and Latter Day Saint movement. While the churches originating in the Second Great Awakening have some superficial similarities, their doctrine and practices vary significantly.

With that in mind, you have to also take into consideration not just the Bible Students in those days, but of others as well. For there had been various groups that have broken off from

I advise you to look into the history of Christianity, for there were reasons as to why some groups have broken off from each other, either from within or from the outside. To ignore this part in Christian history is just a silly thing to do, for it is better understood if one reads up on the history so that they gain a better understanding as to why there is so many denominations in Christianity, why various beliefs that seem identical, etc.

We have just one biblical account of a letter reaching to all congregations, concerning a major issue affecting the spread of Christianity in pureness.   Just one.  It was dealing with the transformation process of moving away from Jewish law that Jesus fulfilled.  Col 2:14; Eph 2:14-16 

Does this give cause for the belief that an organization was present; that men “organized” the preaching work?  Paul and Barnabas addressed a prevalent issue, happening in Antioch and in Jerusalem.  Obviously, the brothers in Jerusalem hadn’t taken care of it until Paul and Barnabas showed up. Acts 15:24

On the contrary,

Epistle to the Colossians (New Testament writing addressed to Christians at Colossae)

We learn in this epistle to the Colossians, sent by Paul, that falsehood and teachings that are not of truth are overwriting and in an attempt to rid the truth, the teachings of the gospel that was spoken by the Messiah. For we see that these persons have blotted out the handwritten records of the teachings, the decrees that are deemed the truth.

Colossians 2:14 [Alive in Christ/ Watch out for Deceivers] reads: by canceling the record [A] of debt that stood against us [C] with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. [D] – ESV

[A]: Exodus 34:27, Deuteronomy 31:24-26, Hebrews 7:18            : Ephesians 2:14, 15

[C]: Romans 7:10, Galatians 3:10                                               [D]: Galatians 3:13, Hebrews 9:15, 1 Peter 2:24

To the Ephesians

What we see in those verses is that of people being one with Christ, taking in knowledge of him and adhering to the teachings he, Jesus, preached, therefore also taking in and learning of the Father, for Jesus himself stated: “The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.” - John 14:10 (see to John 7:16, 8:28, 12:49). In doing so, Christians, true Christians not will also have the fullness of God dwelling in them for they know these things (knowledge of the Son in turn taking in knowledge of the Father). In the entirety of Ephesians 2, nothing regarding the affect of the teachings being accursed and or some other doctrine being preached, as you stated the following here: concerning a major issue affecting the spread of Christianity in pureness.   Just one.  It was dealing with the transformation process of moving away from Jewish law that Jesus fulfilled

Ephesians 2:14-16 [Made alive with the Christ (One in Christ), Wall of Separation Destroyed] reads:

(14) For he himself is our peace [A], who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility [C] (15) by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man [D] in place of the two, so making peace, (16) and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross [E], thereby killing the hostility (by means of himself).

[A]: Colossians 1:19, 20 : Colossians 3:11

[C]: Leviticus 20:26, Colossians 2:13, 14 [D]: 1 Corinthians 12:12, Galatians 3:28

[E]: Hebrews 2:12 [F]: Acts 10:28

“Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren.   They wrote this letter by them:  The apostles, the elders, and the brethren, To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia: Greetings.”  Acts 15:22

Acts 15:22 is regarding The Council's Letter to Gentile Believers (Letter from the body of Church Leaders).For when we read such verse you have to take into consideration its context, ignoring context and not explaining it after quoting it will not allow the reader to understand the verse.

For this verse, brief explanation, the Apostles and the Elders, together with the whole church decide to send out chosen men from among them to Antioch. Of course we will easily be familiar with these men mention, being Paul and Barnabas. Along with them, were also Judas (who was called Barsabbas) and Silas, leading men among brethren.

Everyone was involved in the process, unlike the GB’s use of a handful of men passing decrees behind closed doors, concerning biased doctrine that has nothing to do with truth in scripture – doctrine that must be swallowed down without a second thought, whether sound from a human standpoint or not.  Matt 24:26; 2 Tim 4:3-5

Everyone was involved with the process, which is correct, we see this when it came to the decrees regarding the true teachings of scripture, in addition to coming to an agreement when it came to those being sent off to minster to others and the like. You claim the following “the GB’s use of a handful of men passing decrees behind closed doors, concerning biased doctrine that has nothing to do with truth in scripture – doctrine that must be swallowed down without a second thought, whether sound from a human standpoint or not.” yet you do not give any examples at all, expecting us, the readers to take your word for granted without bringing up examples of such? How I see this response is no different from you stating that “the scriptures is 100% inspired” when I gave proof that the scriptures “Isn’t 100% inspired” due to Man’s meddling of the scriptures, and I have given example of this and proof, not spitting out claims for others to “swallow without a thought”.

Also again, if you post scripture, say it and briefly explain it if you can.

Matthew 24:26 [Dangers of being misled by false Christs/The Abomination of Desolation] reads: So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.

2 Timothy 4:3-5 [Fully accomplish your ministry, Preach the word urgently] reads: (3) I thank God whom I serve, as did my ancestors, with a clear conscience, as I remember you constantly in my prayers night and day. (4) As I remember your tears, I long to see you, that I may be filled with joy. (5) I am reminded of your sincere faith, a faith that dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice and now, I am sure, dwells in you as well.

The question that can be raised, is those who adhere to the Great Commission lairs, are they not close to what that even is or teaches it or do they abandon it, don’t teach something that is vital and was very important to Jesus?

As for what I stated before about “inspired scripture”, you answered that “100% the scriptures were inspired”, so if majority of people state that the scriptures have been tampered with, including our early church fathers, why say such is true, misleading me on something I am very well aware of? So clearly this example used against you just shows that you are mislead yourself, and possibly mislead on other things as well.

The decrees that the apostles, elders and the whole church, settled upon:

We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. ²⁸ For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: ²⁹ that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.  Acts 15:27-29

No greater burden!! Did these decrees go beyond the things already written down in God’s Word? 

The decrees were in fact the teachings, nothing less, nothing more. This is why the early church leaders and elders speak of, time and time again as well as to be careful of falsehood, as well as treating our brothers and sisters. But now the other problem you face is the “Nazareth Vow”, another thing that seems alien to majority of Christians today. All in all, Christians are to adhere to what is said in Acts 15:27-29 as well as God’s Word, for any man or woman can agree to what Acts 15:27-29 says, but at the same time ignore God’s Word itself, for God’s Word isn’t limited to that small section of scripture.

We have much proof that Holy Spirit directed individuals in the preaching work.

 “But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. ¹² For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.” Gal 1:11

Actually, the teachings itself did not originate with man, which is true, and we know that Jesus himself taught these things, at the same time, these teachings are of his own, but from the Father, Almighty God, Yahweh. Because Galatians 1:11, whereas the point is “Paul Called by God (Good news preached by Paul comes from God), verses 11-23”.

That one verse connects to 1 Thessalonians 2:13, for the point of here is “Thessalonians accepted God’s word (Paul's Ministry to the Thessalonians), verses 1-16”.

It reads: And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.

That verse also points to verses 2 and 3 found in 1 Thessalonians 1 (The Thessalonians' Faith and Example): (2) We give thanks to God always for all of you, constantly mentioning you in our prayers, (3) remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

So us as Christians know that: The teachings of God’s Word did not originate with us men, for it came through a revelation by Jesus Christ, in turn, the Word of God spoken by Jesus, originates from Yahweh, God the Father Himself. Anything that deviates from such is considered false and or accursed, a teaching that some claim to be of God’s spoken word that became flesh, but speaks differently from that of the scriptures, and therefore, we are to avoid false prophets. This includes false prophets who have “Altered the scriptures/Bible and speak of said altercations as Words inspired by God”.

As for Galatians 1:15-17, just briefly interpret it. For it speaks of Paul being called by God, so to speak as well as Paul’s conversion and early activity, promoting him on what he began to do.

Phillip was directed by Holy Spirit; Acts 8:26,27,29 as well as Barnabas, Acts 13:2

That is true of Barnabas, but also we know that the work has been accomplished, Barnabas along with another minster who accompanied him, were back in Antioch by about 47 C.E. and from there left on a missionary assignment under the direction of the Holy Spirit.

Barnabas was indeed a good person, full of both Holy Spirit and of Faith, as we are aware of regarding Acts 11:23, 24. We also know he was a teacher, as well as a prophet in Antioch for we see this in Acts 13:1.

Barnabas, as the apostles have stated, is as among their dear loved ones, among men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ, Acts 15:25, 26. Although Barnabas was also not among or even considered to be one of the 12 apostles, he was properly called an apostle in Acts 14:14, for, indeed, he was one, as Acts 13:4, 43 states “being sent out by the Holy Spirit.

Now then regarding Phillip, you are incorrect on one point, just verse 26 because it was an Angel of Yahweh (Angel of the Lord) who spoke to him at first, for it was this divine direction given to Philip at first, THEN we have the Spirit come into play, Acts 8:29, 39, a simple mistake like that can convince a reader that the Spirit is an Angel or that the Angel is the Spirit (for people already know that humanoid spirit beings, bene elohim, are Angels).We now know that both the “Angel of the Lord (Angel of Yahweh)” and the Spirit (Holy Spirit) are employed in guiding Philip to the Eunuch.

This is why you have to read what the scriptures says instead of just saying quoting and or making reference to it, you may know it, but the reader may not know, for as Christians we need to let people know: read for context, explain briefly and or in detail of what the verse even means.

Acts 8 verses 26-40 speaks of Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch, in addition, this includes verses 26, 27 and 29. Even when broken down, it still points to The Ethiopian eunuch (26-40).

Acts 8:27-29 reads (I will mark 26 in blue to separate from the verses you mentioned):

(26) Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Rise and go toward the south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is a desert place. (27) And he rose and went. And there was an Ethiopian, a eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure. He had come to Jerusalem to worship (28) and was returning, seated in his chariot, and he was reading the prophet Isaiah. (29) And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go over and join this chariot.”

As for verse 39, we see the following: And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing.

In these early congregation of believers, “elders” were the anointed ones, fulfilling their role as “priests”.  1 Pet 5:1-4

1 Peter 5:1-4 speaks of “Shepherding the Flock”. As elders, they are told on how to care for the flock, as well as to be humble and vigilant, in addition to throw all anxiety on God. It also speaks of avoiding the Devil, who is like a roaring lion, and finally concluding words Final Greetings. Also I would just leave it at the word “Elder” as to some in Christendom, “Elder” and “Priest” is seen as different from each other, somewhat identical.

Mal 2:7 - “For the lips of a priest should keep knowledge,
And people should seek the law from his mouth;
For he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts.”

Please look into what Malachi 2:7 points to: Deuteronomy 24:8, 2 Chronicles 15:3, Nehemiah 8:7, 8 and Ezekiel 44: 23, 24 also. Especially with what you made in bold in that verse so it doesn’t seem to go out of context to the reader regarding elders.

1 Pet 2:5 “you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrificesacceptable to God through Jesus Christ.”

Yes, for the Spiritual house, as mentioned in Ephesians 2:21. Our sacrifices as seen in Hebrews 13:15. Acceptable to God through Jesus, Romans 12:1.

Have you had an opportunity to hear or read Fred Franz’s talk on how the early preaching work was accomplished?  If not, I think you will be surprised. I can’t seem to find the audio version anymore, but you can read it. 

Sometimes, even the Watchtower leaders slip in words of truth but practice the opposite. Jesus words can aptly apply during these fleeting moments:

Can you be more specific and quote these so called “slip in words of truth”? Instead of telling us something to accept, why not post some proof of these claims? Small quotes here and there, it didn’t stop you before. Because I don’t want to swallowed down something without a second thought. So if possible, please cite anything of a change or something you feel that is off instead of just telling us to look into it. As for me, I believe there is an audio somewhere, but some people do not like sharing at all, especially those who claim they have the audio, but lack sufficient proof of having it, or others tend to just keep it for themselves.

“Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.”  Matt 23:3

That is true, we are not to accept the falsehood of those claiming to be Christians teach, or that of those who preach that false bible verses are God inspired, however some Christians do it anyways, as well as accursed the teachings, accept falsehood, cherry-pick and the like, as well as ignoring and or abandoning what the Great Commission even means, which is something insanely vital when it comes to not just learning the truth, but teaching it as well. This verse along is compared to Matthew 15:3 and 6, as well as Malachi 2:7,8, to which you have mentioned verse 7 previously.

As for all that red text you posted:

What is missed here is the fact that the Bible Student Movement is an “organization” that originated from the second awakening. CTR was pretty much saying here that there are other organizations (religious ones) who do not teach what is the truth and or the very teachings that come from the bible for they interpret it differently than what the scriptures say, hence what he continues on to say here: “The Bible will be the only rules you need. Do not seek to bind other consciences, and do not permit others to bind yours. Believe and obey so far as you can understand God's word today, and so continue to growing in grace and knowledge day by day." For if we go back to that point and time, one can easily see the number of denominations and their teachings, including some denominations that do not exist anymore, all under the Christian banner, for even CTR is aware of some Christians, who take in practices like occultism, which he himself calls it Spiritism (Spiritualism and the occult for CTR even attacked Spiritualism):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritualism

You may want to re-check some of the history itself regarding 1^st century teachings of Christianity (during Jesus’ day and after his death within the 1^st century itself). For even the 1st century findings know who God the Father is, and they know of his Chosen Messiah (God's Christ), Jesus. One doesn't have to go far to make the research.
 

As for the rest, I read through it, but I suggest you take into account when you quote scripture or when you say it, read it for context, then when it is understood,then you are open to explain it, briefly and or in details, just posting links left and right isn't going to do you much. For one is to read the verses, read it for context and interpret it, and should they post it, one must give brief and or detailed information of what that verse is trying to say, to us for anyone of us here can go to read it, but one needs to keep in mind that even the "guests" here want to better understand what a specific verse means, regardless of one's religious background.

Plus most people are not a fan of anything regarding King James, me included.

Aside from that, how well versed are you in Christology and Theology when it comes to early Christians? I see you coined "1st century" so I am a bit curious.

1 hour ago, Matthew9969 said:

Those stats you put up include the watchtower bible and tract society estimated net worth in the billions.....just like the catholic church. And you take John 2:16 out of context which show's you have very little clue as to how some churches raise money, where as in John people were ripping poor people off by selling sacrificial animals at higher prices. Those 7 men you worship now realized how they want to live in Luxury like Benny Hinn or the Pope, fly first class, stay in 5 star hotels and don't lift a finger for the billions of dollars they control. Sounds like your jealous of them.

Just because the sheep take direction from the Shepherd when it comes to learn from scripture and in turn, use said Scripture to better themselves and or life does not mean that the sheep worship the Shepherd. For that is the role of a church leader/pastor/whatever you want to call em, and church leaders operate similarly to that of the early churches in ancient times, and how Jesus' Apostles operate to their students as well, Shepherd to Sheep, Sheep to Shepherd ; Flock to Shepherd Shepherd to Flock, thus becoming one in faith and in teaching(s).

Anyways as for those stats, they could be found just about anywhere, especially with stats containing statistics on revenue of the church, member count and the like.

The fact that you bring up John 2:16 makes me question if you understood of what it means, but I will explain it below.

There are some churches who use money to help out in their gospel, some who do it far better than others, for we have many examples of this, in some situations, the money used by the church is often use to help out members of the church and if the church is part of a religious organization, any church connected benefits from the money as well. Now if the JWs or Watchtower did use the money to build churches and maintain the church, to make their magazines, to send out aid, etc, keeping the money for themselves and only themselves, than that would be an issue, but that is only in the dreams of those who are their opponents. But the reality is JWs really do those things, even got relief efforts going on for them, aiding their brothers and sisters first, than going to help out others, Texas being an example.

And last I checked, I doubt any of those men who are the church leaders of the Watchtower even own mansions or houses, for if they remain in one spot and soon move to another spot, in this case, going back and forth, to place A, B, C, D to A again and repeating the cycle and what they all seem to care about is their teachings and that their church members having faith in said teachings, whereas ironically, some other churches today are supposedly copying the JWs when it comes to not celebrating only "some" holidays and adhering to the bible, elsewhere, people would not set foot in a JW church, however, they are open to accept magazines, bible and or any resources they could get for free from JWs and in turn, use it. You'd be surprise of how many people like, want and even learn from their magazines vs JW opponents who take them only to throw it away in the faces of JWs.

Apparently you do not really know Benny Hinn, for he generates money, yes, but majority of the money goes forwards his church, his security and bodyguards, and most of all, his house: http://virtualglobetrotting.com/map/benny-hinns-house/view/google/

We have his other house, Purchases 15,000-Square-Foot Italian Villa

 Other pastors being examples such as: Joel Olsteen, Francis Chan, Creflo Dollar, to name a few.

Some other examples of how pastors use their money, even having reality shows and the like:

 

For Preachers like this preach do not the gospel that comes from the bible or that of the gospel that Jesus Christ preached. For they preach the prosperity gospel (Prosperity Theology) - the promise of becoming rich, monetarily and spirituality if you tithe to the church.For the money barely goes towards helping the church members, the church, or anything pertaining to relief, etc.

This includes Benny Hinn and his pals.

Regarding Creflo Dollar:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-siebold/the-biggest-scam-of-all-p_b_7521170.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592

Then we have silly Trinitarians (False Christians of Babylon) defending such persons and themselves:

As for John 2:16:

My Father's House Some groups (majority being Trinitarians) who misinterpret this completely fails to honestly regard the context of the passage: "Take these things away and stop making my Father’s house a marketplace." His disciples remembered that it was written, "Zeal for Your house will consume me." John 2:16-17 (see Psalm 69:9). The Temple is the Father's house, the Father of Jesus. Likewise, we are to understand that the body of Christ is the temple of God, that is, the Father's house. The Father's Word had tabernacled in human flesh (John 1:14) and the Father abiding in Jesus did the works (John 14:10).

Let the reader also observe that Jesus did not describe the Temple as his house; Jesus did not describe the Temple as the Triune God's house; the Temple was his God's house, the Father's house. The Old Testament God of Israel was the Father of Jesus and the Temple built by Solomon was the Father's House. This simple fact alone tells us that the God of the Shema was the Father of Jesus. Under the Law, the Father's house was a stone temple. But something new was taking place. The Spirit of the Father had come to dwell in Jesus and this man himself was now God the Father's tabernacle, the Temple of God. And indeed, we also read in the Scriptures that the body of Christ, the church, is the Temple of God where His Spirit dwells.

The Scriptural facts show us that his body was the Temple of God; the Word tabernacled in human flesh and that flesh was the Father's Temple. He, this body of flesh, was the Father's Word and he spoke the words of the Father. This account is about the Father's house, the Temple. Jesus' words were not his own but the Father's who sent him. This body of flesh (body of this man), His Temple, was His Word to the world. Since he was the Father's Word, there were two witnesses as according to the Law. Jesus tells us many times in John's Gospel that he spoke the words of the Father. He kept his Father's word (John 8:55) for eternal life.

For I did not speak from myself, but the Father Himself who sent me has given me commandment as to what to say and what to speak. I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told me. John 12:50

The word Jesus had spoken at John 2:19 were the words of the Father. The Father's word is "the word of life" (1 John 1:1). In the Gospel of John, Jesus is the Father's word tabernacled in human flesh. Therefore, being the Father's word, what then did you expect the Father to say when these men asked Jesus by what authority he had cleared the Temple? "Destroy this Temple and in three days I will raise it up."

 

"I am the resurrection and the life." John 11:25

 

Anyways, do you have a source for them using expensive flights and only going to 5 star hotels, as you claim? Since you did state the following:

1 hour ago, Matthew9969 said:

Those 7 men you worship now realized how they want to live in Luxury like Benny Hinn or the Pope, fly first class, stay in 5 star hotels and don't lift a finger for the billions of dollars they control. Sounds like your jealous of them.

 

Things like this could have been prevented, the FBI had received numerous tips and information on this mentally-ill teen, but they didn't do a thing. Should it have been anyone of a religious background and or race, as the people say, the FBI would then react immediately.

21 minutes ago, Cos said:

In an initial post we are given a Unitarian view point which seeked to explain away the implications of the passage of Matthew 28:19, to the tone that verse 18 gives the meaning of verse 19. That in verse 19, “the singular name is pertaining to is the one authority of God the Father (Yahweh/Jehovah) through God's Son (Yeshua/Jesus) in God's Holy Spirit … The disciples are to do these things in the name of the authority of the Father, given to the Son, by the Holy Spirit…”

 

That was how the Unitarian explanation was given in spite of the clear meaning of the passage.

 

Yet after stating the assumed meaning of how the passage goes, then followed another post which basically is an account of someone else’s claims and which at the end states basically the same idea as the first post; but this second post does more, it implies that the passage of Matthew 28:19 is a later insertion to support the Trinity.

 

How can the passage of Matthew 28:19 mean what is claimed in the first post (and at the end of the second post) and also be a later insertion?

 

That is just typical of the contradictive nonsense some propagate. The reason for this I believe is because this simple passage speaks volume and some just don’t like the implications of what that means.

 

Let’s note, without getting into a long expose, that in the baptismal passage of Matthew 28:29, Jesus marks, as parallel, the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, this is particularly interesting when you consider the fact that in the Bible nothing can be equivalent with God in anyway.

 

Yet here Jesus deliberately expresses the co-equality of the three. Some clearly don’t like this and will even try to cast doubt on the genuineness of the passage.

 

Now it is a growing position from some groups such as Muslins, Modalists, Arian/Unitarians and some Jews, that the passage of Matthew 28:19 is not genuine. Even some liberal academics have fallen for this ruse.

 

The passage is textually authentic being found in all Greek manuscripts and ancient version, see for example the UBS Greek Text critical edition on the New Testament or Bruce Metzger’s Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament.

 

These groups, who cast doubt on Matthew 28:19, all refer to the fourth century Historian, Eusebius to try to validate their claims.

 

What these group fail to see (or maybe they are just fixated on trying to make it seem that the passage is not genuine) is that Eusebius has a tendency to paraphrase.

 

To demonstrate, in Demonstratio Evangelica, one of the places which the author in the second post cites, and where Eusebius is supposed to be quoting the short version of Matthew 28:19, notice that Eusebius also "quotes" Philippians 2:9. However, the statement is certainly not a quotation:

 

Eusebius writes :

 

“For he did not enjoin them “to make disciples of all the nations” simply and without qualification, but with the essential addition “in his name”. For so great was the virtue attaching to his appellation that the Apostle says, "God bestowed on him the name above every name, that in the name of Jesus every knee shall bow of things in heaven and on earth and under the earth." It was right therefore that he should emphasize the virtue of the power residing in his name but hidden from the many, and therefore say to his Apostles, "Go ye, and make disciples of all the nations in my name.’ (Demonstatio Evangelica, col. 240, p. 136)

 

But, Philippians 2:9 in full is:

 

“Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth”

 

Eusebius of Caesarea, when discussing the history of the gospel going forth to the world would paraphrase passages from Scripture, keeping the focus on the command to preach to all nations.

 

However, when discussing matters of theology, he quotes the passage of Matthew 28:19 more fully:

 

"We believe in One God, the Father Almighty, the Maker of all things visible and invisible. And in One Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, God from God, Light from Light, Life from Life, Son Only-begotten, first-born of every creature, before all the ages, begotten from the Father, by whom also all things were made; who for our salvation was made flesh, and lived among men, and suffered, and rose again the third day, and ascended to the Father, and will come again in glory to judge quick and dead. And we believe also in One Holy Ghost; believing each of These to be and to exist, the Father truly Father, and the Son truly Son, and the Holy Ghost truly Holy Ghost, as also our Lord, sending forth His disciples for the preaching, said, 'Go, teach all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,'" (Eusebius' Letter to the Church in Caesarea).

 

So even Eusebius knew of and used the full form of the text we have today, he simply felt free to paraphrase it at times when his purpose did not require a full citation.

 

In the passages in the Book of Acts, such as Acts 2:38, 8:16, 10:48 etc, when looked at in context the phrase “in the name of” is not a formula as that of Matthew 28:19, but a reference to authority. It is similar to hearing someone say, "Stop in the name of the Law!" We understand that the "name of the Law" means by the authority of the Law.   It is the same with baptism "in Jesus' name."  To baptize in Jesus' name is to baptize in the authority of Jesus.  Consider the following from Acts:

 

"And when they had placed them in the center, they began to inquire, "By what power, or in what name, have you done this?" Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them, "Rulers and elders of the people, if we are on trial today for a benefit done to a sick man, as to how this man has been made well, let it be known to all of you, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead--by this name this man stands here before you in good health" (Acts 4:7-10).

 

"But in order that it may not spread any further among the people, let us warn them to speak no more to any man in this name. And when they had summoned them, they commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus" (Acts 4:17-18).

 

"We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and behold, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and intend to bring this man’s blood upon us" (Acts 5:28).

 

"And they took his advice; and after calling the apostles in, they flogged them and ordered them to speak no more in the name of Jesus, and then released them" (Acts 5:40).

 

"But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike" (Acts 8:12)

 

"But Barnabas took hold of him and brought him to the apostles and described to them how he had seen the Lord on the road, and that He had talked to him, and how at Damascus he had spoken out boldly in the name of Jesus. And he was with them moving about freely in Jerusalem, speaking out boldly in the name of the Lord" (Acts 9:27-28)

 

"And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour" (Acts 16:18)

 

As can be seen, the expression in the book of Acts is one of authority. So also when people were being baptized, they did it calling on Jesus' name (Acts 22:16); that is, they were calling upon Jesus who has all authority in heaven and earth. The faithful are supposed to "call upon the name of the Lord Jesus" (1 Cor. 1:2) because it is by His authority that we Christians have the hope and right for the forgiveness of sins.

 

After Jesus’ resurrection He told His followers to go and make disciples of all nations baptizing them in the one singular name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, ONE God, three persons. He told them to teach these new disciples from the nations all that He had commanded, and He promised to be with them always.

 

The Bible powerfully preserved, throughout the ages and through numerous streams of evidence the words of Matthew 28:19. If your beliefs cannot reconcile with these words, it is your beliefs that are in error, not the words. <><

What I posted was not even from a "Unitarian source" nor was it even a "Unitarian point of view" so do not pull claims out of thin-air like you did before.

It is actually from a Christian brother who had broken away from falsehood that is within Christianity when he learn what the truth is and is now sticking to what the scriptures say indefinitely and he is the type of guy to call out those who teach falsehood should the situation call for it, in addition to that, the experienced man has a great deal of experience to scripture, manuscripts, church fathers, Hermeneutics, interpretation, and surprise surprise, he is not a JW, a Unitarian, nor is he a Trinitarian. He isn;t the only one for there is a huge Christian community that supports the similar thing.

Plus, my comment wasn't directed to you at all, but yet you had the audacity to target me again after the circus show you pulled in the other thread whereas you've being exposed for lying about something you said and mixing things together to fit your belief, etc. Should you choose to do it again here, the end result will be the same outcome, but your dishonesty made you highly irrelevant, especially to me and the others who saw proof of you lying in order to pin me as an enemy.

Anyways, I am not here for your mind games again and a plethora of sources I can pull regarding Mathew 28:19 meaning will say something identical to what this Christian brother had to say.

FYI, Eusebius of Caesarea was challenged on Matthew 28:19 also, you may want look into what he said for there is quite a bit of information on this

You can toy all you want with Jehovah's Witnesses, but people who take scripture seriously are not to be toyed around with.

PS: The claims of Trinitarians were made to the Christian brother via email years ago, how he operates is he response to the claims and gives incite to his research, that is just the basic stuff mentioned, for there is far more detailed info on that single verse by this Christian brother who has no affiliation with any religious church, therefore, your "assumption" is insufficient.

For this is what his views are:

Quote

The articles on this website are not Watchtower, Arian, Oneness or Modalist. You won't be doing yourself a favor by attempting to describe my beliefs with labels like these or any other.

I do not ascribe to any particular denominational banner or belief system label. People serve those things and no one can have two masters. We should serve the Lord Jesus Christ not the creeds of men. - Kel

1 hour ago, AllenSmith said:

If this is your understanding, in your opinion, Then what's your excuse for abandoning Christ teaching? Proverbs 4:2, Revelation 2:4

You continue to shoulder a mistaken perception, whoever, I'll give you this one. If the most SEASONED Witness doesn't understand the purpose of this Message? I don't expect an outsider too.However, it's been explained time and times, and half times, so you should have a clear understanding, about spiritism. 1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Corinthians 2:11, 1 Timothy 4:13

Aside, from that, I wouldn't set foot in a church, in which the head of the church,  professes to be the reincarnation of Christ with infallibility (Perfect)? thus forsaking scripture completely with such divine power!!!!

Pretty much majority of Christianity in a nutshell today:

4 hours ago, Witness said:

 Â“Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you—guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.” 1 Tim 1:14

There is no doubt that the GB have let their guard down and have lost what was initially given them by Holy Spirit.  Matt 25:28-30; Mark 4:24,25,22,23; Heb 12:15; Rev 8:10,11; 13:11-15  

By their own admission, they say they are not inspired (“divinely breathed in”); which is the receiving of Holy Spirit given at an anointing (“the special endowment ‘chrism’ of Holy Spirit”). 1 John 2:18-21,23

1 Cor 3:16 – “Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?”

To say they are not inspired, they ADMIT they are no longer the dwelling of God, bereft of the spiritual influence, “inspiration” of God’s Spirit.  The evidence that they do not “walk by the Spirit of God” is their insatiable motivation to fully “gratify the desires of the flesh” that Satan aptly provides them within his realm.  1 Tim 6:17; Matt 4:8,9

Jesus would never have considered developing an empire in the same earthly realm that his enemy has authority over. Matt 6:19-21; James 5:3 The GB lineage lost their position as the “dwelling of God” by submitting to another spirit.  They have been used as pawns to create a counterfeit “mountain”/dwelling, boasting that it is “spirit-directed” by God. Rev 13:11,15  It was purposefully built under the spiritual influence they have “breathed” in to take into “bondage” as many as possible. Rev 13:10; Luke 21:24; Rev 13:11-14  “Jehovah’s organization” blasphemes the true God and his true “dwelling”. 1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22; Matt 24:15,16; Dan 11:31; Rev 13:1,2,6,7

“My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.”  John 18:36

“The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 1 Tim 4:1

“But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. ^ And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. ^ By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.”  2 Pet 2:1-3

For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escapedfrom those who live in error. ^ While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. ^ For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. ^ For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. ^ But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Pet 2:18-22

“Deceptive words”, “great swelling words of emptiness”; such as,

"Today, a small percentage of mankind can still recall the dramatic events of 1914. Will that elderly generation pass away before God saves the earth from ruin? Not according to Bible prophecy. 'When you see all these things,' Jesus PROMISED, 'know that he is near at the doors. Truly I say to you that THIS generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.' - Matthew 24:33, 34." (Wt 5/1/1992  pg 3)

Satan provides all the material goods the GB needs to do HIS will; destroy the "living stones" of the Temple of God.  2 Thess 2:1-12; Rev 16:12-16

 

 

To be fair, there are those who know what went down in 1914 and what followed.Outside of the JW opposition, there are a dozen groups, some not existing anymore who sided and or compare to that of JWs regarding 1914.

For the Jehovah's Witnesses well know that: Satan, the Great Scarlet Dragon, was cast out of Heaven along with his demons (fallen/rebellious angels) after the battle in the Spirit Realm by the Messianic King who began to rule (or the beginning of Jesus' kingship in heaven over God's Kingdom), in addition, no longer able to be in the presence of God the Father, despite in the past Satan, just like the other Spirit Beings were able to freely dwell back and forth from heaven to earth, vice versa, for Spirit Beings can freely travel between Heaven and Earth, as described in Jacob's dream at Genesis 28:12 (compare, John 1:51, Hebrews 1:7, 14).

Genesis 28:12: And he dreamed, and behold, there was a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven. And behold, the angels of God were ascending and descending on it!

John 1:51: And he said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”

Hebrews 1:7, 14: (7) Of the angels he says, “He makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire.” (14) Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?

And obviously, the Deceiver, who is angry and unhinged, being upon those on earth and unable to be in God's presence due to being kicked out for good along with his hordes of demons (rebellious/fallen ones), dwells with mankind on the earth, and as the scriptures says in Revelations 12:12:

Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

What took place was the massive violence, war and epidemic that killed tons of people as well as several earthquakes in 1914, as some call it, the signs of the times, and I believe I mentioned this on another thread of yours. One may say it is all coincidence or that the Bible Students, specifically CTR had a lucky guess, but then you got all of this stuff going off at once and didn't calm down for a bit until after some time have past, but the times continue to get far worse even though such things settled down a bit. For it is said it has been pinpointed from the Hebrew scriptures itself (or derived from the gospel of Daniel as some say). Plus, outside of the realm of Christianity, it is also best to look at history itself from 1914 and onward, and you will see as to why this is.

I myself was skeptical at first until I did the research and found the other groups who are in agreement with that year. For even the purely Christian community come from were even kind enough to do the research to look at those other groups.

List of groups (CSE quote)

Quote

belief to a greater or lesser degree.

 Testemunhas dos Deuses Santos - Holy Gods Witnesses

The Herald of Christ's Kingdom (Bible Students)

The Dawn Bible Students Association

 other JW dissident groups but I could not verify if they still share this belief. Even because some of them doesn't exist anymore.

Laymen's Home Missionary Movement
Epiphany Bible Students Association
Laodicean Home Missionary Movement (1957-1990)
Pastoral Bible Institute
Watchers of the Morning (1937-1957)
The Christian Millennial Fellowship
The Standfast Bible Students Association
The Elijah Voice Society
The Servants of Yah
New Jerusalem Fellowship (1922-1992)
Old Paths Publications (1925-1961)
Forest Gate Church (1920-1979)
Goshen Fellowship
The Institute of Pyramidology
The Angel of Jehovah Bible and Tract Society
Berean Bible Institute
The New Covenant Believers (Berean Bible Students Church)
Associated Bible Students
Association of Free Bible Students of France
German Bible Students Association
Greek Bible Students Association
International Bible Students of India
Polish Bible Students Association

 

I dunno if this would be of interest to you or anyone else, but I will post this here, from the Christian community I am part of, for someone posted this, I will repost it here:

Quote

I have some newspaper articles although only a couple of the ones I have are the type that they are written by the newspaper's journalists.

One I have is a letter to the editor (in defense of Charles Russell) and other one is one of those "Pastor Russell Sermons" that some newspapers carried.

The "Pastor Russell Sermon" titled, "Overturned Until He Come" was published in the Twin Falls News on August 31st, 1911.

In this article he refers to the 2520 years ending on October 1914. The paragraph under the subtitle "The Time of the Gentiles" in the second column states:

When God removed the typical kingdom of Israel and His typical throne in the world, He gave over the earthly dominion to the Gentiles; and this lease of power, as represented in Daniel's prophecy, was to continue for "seven times" - 2,520 years. In other words, during the same period that Israel would be having "seven times" of tribulation and subjection, the Gentiles would be having "seven times" of prosperity; and both will terminate at the same time - in 2,520 years from G.C. 606 - October, A.D. 1914.

This sermon is shown in the image below.

Another article is from The Lima Daily News, dated March 28th 1914. This article was written to address what some minister was saying in Canada that the world will end (as in "the earth will get destroyed") in 1914. This article also appeared in The Newark Daily Advocate on March 23rd, 1914.

I have copied some of the text below to provide a gist of what he wrote about world's end and 1914:

First column, second paragraph onward:

I was prompted in the selection of my text for today by reading an extract from the sermon of a Canadian minister delivered recently. In it he declared that 1914 would witness the Second Coming of Christ, etc. His statement allowed for the inference that he holds the view common to nearly all the creeds; namely, that the earth is to be burned up and the human race blotted out; and that, incidentally, Christ will come a second time, to see that none of the Church are included in the destruction.

Mistakes of Dark Ages Being Corrected.

To my understanding, all such expectations are wholly unscriptural, untrue, misleading, and hindrances in the right understanding of the Bible.

Fourth column, end of first paragraph onward:

If we have the correct date and chronology, Gentile Times will end this year - 1914.

What of it? We do not surely know. Our expectation is that the active rule of Messiah will begin about the time of the ending of the of power to the Gentiles. Our expectation, true or false, is that there will be wonderful manifestations of Divine judgments against all unrighteousness, and that this will mean the breaking up of many institutions of the present time, if not all.

This article is shown below.

I also had two that were written by the newspapers after the war had already started (Wikipediagives 28 July 1914 as the start date).

One of these, titled "End of all Kingdoms" was published in The World Magazine on August 30th, 1914. The other one, shown below, was in The Fort Wayne Journal-Gazette on October 4th 1914 (a thumbnail of this page can also be seen here).

As a side note, the interesting part of this article was the below statement (in the fifth column, second paragraph) but only because it seems that overall people did not expect a war to start that year, let alone one that turned to be a World War.

And in 1914 came war, the war which everybody dreaded, but which everybody thought could not really happen.

thank you @coderworks +1 for the effort. What I was looking for was something like that "End of All Kingdoms in 1914, that is, a commentary from before the war started. Of course such may not exist and this is interesting in its own right. If nothing else comes up I might select yours as the correct answer - it's close enough. – x457812 Dec 28 '17 at 3:55

 

Its time like this we must not forget that imperfections reap consequences. Very sad for such tragedies such as this and those that follow.

They will, regardless of what you think. Any excommunicated member of any church can come back if they want to, despite some members of the church ignoring them depending on if they apply scripture or not or just ignore what it says in Corinthians.

Despite this, members of a church can still participate in memorial and or communion. An example I can bring up is that a family can still bring in their excommunicated relative,and they are still allow to participate, no one is stopping them. But of course an unrepentant person who has been excommunicated that only comes in to disrupt, cause a scene, still mocking God and or his Son, obviously such person will be dealt with by being kicked out or result in the police coming in to apprehend them.

Some churches will not allow you to even enter and or participate, depending on if you truly repentant, how great your sin was, and the like.

In this case, if someone has been kicked out of a church via excommunication, since disfellowshipping is pretty much the same thing, said persons, if they are causing any trouble or on a path of actual repentance, can take part in the Communion Passover.

11 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/51204-did-malachi-have-teenagers-a-russian-thread/?do=findComment&comment=83106

So I was thinking maybe you're right, and that it's significant James was speaking to brothers, but I'm not sure whether, or if so, how.  No need to answer, just explaining my removal of down vote.

But, still do think it can be propaganda.

The thing here is:

When a mainstream/New Age Christian denomination and or church promotes it: People consider it as positive, encouraging, that it shows either the members of the church or the deacons and elders of the church are caring and watching out for the community as well as their church members. Some may not believe me, but anyone can look up "Christian speak about Masturbation" or "Christian Against Masturbation", "Masturbation a Sin/Can you be forgiven for such sin",  or "You will go straight to hell for Masturbating", some of which having REPENT in all caps in its title and or portions of chosen articles and or media. For each has garnered positive comments and words from selected few, even Christians who were for any of these messages, even when deacons and church elders, leaders and or other members preach it. Some churches also go out of their way to say that Masturbation is an okay thing to do, thus doing so to gain new converts and attention to make their church stand out more.

When a Non-Trinitarian Church denomination or church promotes it: They are attacked for it, ridiculed and called insane, weird. Most of the time they are made fun of by other Christians (being hypocrites to what the mainstream also say), and address that church leaders be it elders, deacons and the like shouldn't be teaching people anything that pertains to Anti-Masturbation or ways to prevent it. Such will also get the attention of even atheist, for atheist will often try to attack Non-Trinitarian Christians who are not part of the mainstream, for some even going as far as to publishing articles and stories about it. Out of all the negativity however, you can spot a few who support the message on Anti-Masturbation, even giving their say in the matter, and these same people (not always member of said church) are attacked for being positive. Then you have the occasional troll, who will post a spoof'd link to something inappropriate and or provocative just to get a reaction from you or anger you.

Truly I say, this is how people operate when it comes to these things. The evidence can easily be seen through articles, video, media, and the like.

1 hour ago, Jay Witness said:

YouTube and Instagram face being blocked by Russian internet service providers as a result of a standoff between one of the country's richest businessmen and an opposition leader.

Russia's internet censor blacklisted material on both services after a court ruled that it violated billionaire Oleg Deripaska's privacy rights.

However, Alexei Navalny has refused to remove the videos and photos, which he claims are evidence of corruption.

A Wednesday deadline has been set.

If neither Mr Navalny nor the US tech firms involved delete or otherwise block local access to the imagery by the end of the day, then Russia's ISPs will be required to take action themselves.

A group representing the industry has indicated that this could result in all local access to the social networks being curtailed since ISPs lack the facility to censor specific posts.

"It's impossible for internet providers to block certain pages on Instagram and YouTube," a spokeswoman for the Russian Association for Electronic Communications told the BBC.

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43058399

This was already evident. Now people will see why the Russians activist are always protesting, be it what the Kremlin says or the State Duma or the Russian Church, the Triads of Power within Mother Russia who runs everything, even the news media, thus blocking out outside broadcasting, the situation with VK and Telegram, etc.

Not to mention there overpowered device/software used by RU police and FSB to track down protesters, RU civilians, Alexei Navalny followers, Kremlin critics and opponents, Religious persons, etc, for such has even made Edward Snowden blush, in addition to his own remarks about what is used. To make it blunt and clear, NSA on steroids, so to speak.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Um, don't agree with you. For instance there was a form of 'governing body' though of course not called such. The older men or elders in Jerusalem had to make decisions on behalf of all. This is proved by the problem about circumcision, which had to be resolved by the apostles and elders. ( Acts chapter 15 ) They are called Elders even in the King James bible. Once a decision had been made Paul and Barnabas and others then had to relay that decision to the congregations. Surely you can see that, that was organised, hence an organisation. Congregations were taught from the Apostles and Elders or older men. The fact that Paul wrote so many letters to different congregations also proves that early Christians were an organisation. An organisation in as much as they were led by the apostles and elders /older men. And also the fact that in Matthew 24 v 14, Jesus said that the gospel or good news of the Kingdom would be preached worldwide / earthwide. If, as you say, that we don't need an organisation, then how would Jesus' words here come true ?  Most religions don't even believe in God's Kingdom. Most people don't even believe in God's Kingdom. So are you saying that Jesus was wrong ? I hope not.

Any group who claims to follow the Great Commission are considered a religious organization, a body of Christians, who as one, teach and preach the gospel, making disciples, disciples into teachers to do the same.

The thing is, those who are unaware of the Great Commission as as what you say "They do not believe in God's Kingdom" or, the latter will cherry pick from scriptures, conjuring their own doctrine to keep telling themselves they are Christian and following the scriptures, when truly they do not know what being a Christian means let alone what following he scripture means. For any man or woman can say they're a Christian and completely ignore the the scriptures or foolishly accept anything forged into scripture, "man-made" verses, thus considering true what is not biblically  inspired.

Christianity in its state now is a mess, for those in organized religions actually attend to follow Jesus examples than throwing out things of which he said.

I would trust the KJV/NKJV 100% if I were you. Several reasons, perhaps even more as to why I think as such, as do the majority of those who are aware of truth.

Yeah, they were normally called body of elders or early christian church fathers, high priests, Bishops, the faithful and wise servants and or discreet Slaves, etc.

Which ever they are called, they have the same functions as those of the early Christians in the early congregation/church of those ancient times.

7 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Space Merchant, you are entitled to your opinion of course. I disagree with you. I was not only talking about the Royal Australian Commision, but also Canada, The Netherlands, UK and USA. And what about the countries that are not bothered about looking into such things ?  I really do dread to think what the Earthwide scale of child abuse is like within the JW Org. And why have the Governing Body of JW /WT gone against the law of the land in the USA by refusing to hand over the documents relating to child abuse accusations in America ? The scriptures say to obey the law of the land as long as it does not conflict with God's laws. I'm sure God would be happier to have JW Org cleared of pedophiles and cleared of accusations of child abuse. Plus it seems to be costing the Org $4,000 per day in fines which it seems amounts to over $2 million by now. In my opinion that money does not belong to the Governing Body to waste in that way. It would have been money donated to help with the Earthwide work of spreading 'the God's news of God's Kingdom'... And to say that child abuse / pedophilia is everywhere is just a very poor excuse. Now please read this carefully. As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I believed that the JW Org / Watchtower Soc' 'was 'no part of the world'. I believed that the Org was completely separate from the 'world'. I based this thinking on Jesus' words that He was no part of the world and that His followers / disciples would be no part of the world. Hence when you and others compare JW Org to other organisations / religions /  bodies of people, it makes no sense to me. My point being, if God was using the JW Org for His own purposes, to educate people of 'all tribes and nations', to bring people together Earthwide into an ARK like situation, as an Organisation of people that would be saved through Armageddon, then why would God allow His Org to be so contaminated by disgusting behavior ? Jesus said the religious leaders in Jerusalem were like Whitewashed Graves, clean on the outside but full of dead men's bones. Is it then so with the JW Org ? The Governing Body of JW Org call themselves 'the faithful and discreet slave'. Note I say that they call themselves by that title. Whereas the scripture says 'Who really is the faithful and discreet slave'. Surely only God will decide who is, and God's decision would surely be made on the 'works' of those ones. If, as it seems, the Governing Body is hiding pedophiles within the Org', then surely they cannot be doing what God wants them to be doing.. You see my approach is trying very hard to be unemotional but practical..... If God has a purpose for mankind and for His creation this planet Earth,  then surely God would have an organisation to use, so as to tell everyone that will listen, about God's purposes and requirements.  God had Noah and his family build the Ark to carry them through the destruction of the early world. God had Moses lead His people from Egypt and through the Red Sea. God had his rules and regulations written down for the Nation of Israel. God had His religious leaders in Israel to offer up the sacrifices for the people. So it seems that God has always been organised and has always shown His people the right direction to go in. Doing so God has also kept His people away from the people of the 'world'. In fact God punished His people when they mixed with the people of the 'world' and when they practise false religion. So, now, surely God has a special Organisation of His own ? The question I'm asking is, is it Organisation Jehovah's Witnesses or not? Because if it is then it needs cleaning out very much. If it isn't then God needs to show people clearly whom He is using..... Space Merchant I can see we disagree on much. On religious beliefs as well as on the JW Org's methods of doing things. One of the biggest problems within the JW Org's 'methods' seems to be, or have been, that people were told NOT TO report child abuse to the police or outside authorities. So if nothing is reported then the police etc know nothing, hence nothing gets done.  It seems to have been left to the Elders of the congregation to act, and if the person being accused is an Elder then it seems (and is quite possibly so) that the other Elders take the side of that Elder and dismiss the accusation. Another point that the Org uses is a scripture, which I'm sure was never meant to be used in this way, which says that a person must have two witnesses to any accusation for it to be investigated. Now it would seem almost impossible for a child to have two witnesses stood by whilst they are being sexually abused by someone else. And I don't think it is a legal requirement in a court of law to have two witnesses that directly saw it happen, it's only a rule within the JW Org.  One last point, as this is getting too  long for one comment.  The Elders are told to keep it a secret if there is a pedophile / known child abuser within it's congregation. Hence members of the congregation do not know if there is someone like that within their congregation. but enough for now. We are looking at JW Org from totally different viewpoints so will not agree on things. Have a good day. 

Unfortunately for you, this is no  mere opinion, I bring up what is true in regards of the days we live in, as Christians, to think of it as an opinion just makes one oblivious to the imperfections of this people and the things of this world (or the things that society has adopted that goes against scripture). Especially to multiple immorality and silliness of the societies in on this world (of the end times and tribulations) that considers DSM-5-TR (Pedophilia) as a sexual orientation that is to be accepted, pushed, endorsed and said by experts to parliaments.

I brought up the ARC because those who jumped on the ARC very late tend to ignore the facts, clearly accept the 1,006 cases as is without further research, mind you, even the non-religious are very well aware of this and how religions operate, in addition to that, there are also those observed the ARC late, especially those have already attacked said religion not just JWs. No one has never brought up the facts and the information, like I had just now, and those who do such will say the group or so-and-so did this and that just by claims that do not hold well without actual evidence and or unproven, never have you seen them speak of the real numbers regarding the ARC since 1,006 is their golden ticket.

Now then, it is understood that such takes place everywhere, as you mentioned. JW or not, there is no place in the world that pedophilia doesn't exist, just as it is a myth that DSM-5 (DSM-5-TR) doesn't exist, and anyone who says such clearly lives under a rock.

As for their so called "rule" that you mentioned, the Two-Witness rule, I am aware of it. I am also aware that this rule isn't exclusive to or only to the Jehovah's Witnesses, but it would seem that no one really reads into scripture or of those that practice "Bible Law" that well or the actions of early Church. Looking at their belief, the two-witness rule is a means for ensuring that accusations made against other within the Christian their church have a supportable basis for the claims made which requires they pass a minimal threshold before actions can be set in motion by church elders that potentially can have life changing consequences for the accused. The two witness rule is an internal mechanism applied exclusively within the congregation for internal judicial matters. For it is no different than church using confessions or those who apply the similar such as the "Canon Law", which is far worse than how JWs operate, for the Canon Law regardless of what you say or do, the one whom you confess to is prohibited from doing anything, since all parties are anonymous including the victim, in addition to no advise to seek outside law if one is subjected to Canon Law, which isn't biblical and requires no action whatsoever to be taken, not even advise to do something, for if should you kill a man, Canon Law keeps you anonymous.

As the law of the land goes in the eyes of religion, church organizations are known for handling the matters internally (judicial resolution of disputes Involving their members), the JWs are no different for they do the same thing as others but the only thing worse than what most Christians do is those that practice anything that equals to or similar to Canon Law. Regarding Christianity and is juridical handling of disputes and matters internally among the church, the police tend to get involve should the victim/family is told to or is advised to contact the police or if something escalates beyond control within that specific church, one has the choice to contact the police, especially when the obvious is thrown into play where there is somewhat of a huge disruption that break out in said church, a church take over or someone going bonkers in the church or on church grounds, or major issues involving such that would put the lives of the members at risk. No one is discouraged to call the police, which goes for every type of organization out there, not just religion itself.

Private matters as well as anything regarding child abuse, the church leaders of that church, or elders as you call them (whatever floats your boat), will do what they can to either handle the situation, go about looking for evidence on their own and advise you to contact the police, or just simply tell you to just contact the police, for no one is stopping you from doing so, and it is pretty much a cake walk for you already know who the suspected abuser, who he or she is and can I.D. him or her quite easily so that so and so can be apprehended without notice or question, which was the case with my faith, one of its denominations, a couple of months ago.

If not the elders, who are merely advisers and or shepherds as some say, you can tell a friend or a relative, you got several groups within your circle, with people who can help you right off the bat, especially if the abuser is within your household or family, you serve as a support system right there to take action or advise, school teachers or deans (some will not directly get involved though) and once again, no one is stopping you, but keep in mind, bystander effect/syndrome may come into play among friends and family, even those who are not part of said faith, for there has been situations whereas those who get involved are also the ones that end up getting hurt or taking a really dark action against the abuser(s) (vigilante justice), as well as encouraging such, for there are many examples of things in the past, i.e. parents going out of their way to plan out a cold bloodied killing of an alleged sex offender, mind you, they waited and when they got him, they killed him with a musical instrument, to be more specific, a Trumpet and I am sure the JWs, or any Christian faith, do not want to have vigilante justice with dark intentions on their plate (or a revival of avengers of blood with an actual intent to kill in a modern society who takes action in their own hands), for that will easily be more damaging vs the abuser getting arrested, as history shows us in some of the pedophilia cases thus far.

But Christians are subject to the civil systems and the laws of the land of which they dwell in, and God allows the people to govern themselves, which is clear and evident. As such, Christians are required to respect the law whether they agree with it or not as we see in Romans 13:1-7. However, while anything pertaining to the law have established judicial systems to resolve disputes, as for Christians themselves, when it comes to them they will and always will handle some things internally, if you want this abolished, than you have to take on the law and against the scriptures as such things are based on. Your next battle is those who accept the disorder as something normal, those who are the so called experts.

Christians are not perfect, and just like everyone else we have interpersonal and business relationships in which conflict can arise. Churches (collections of believers) also experience conflict, and sometimes things regarding members of the church, especially our when it comes to our children, whereas child abuse can become an issue when such is unexpected within a church. Christians understand that no one is without sin; it is how we go about resolving our sin that is important.

At the end of the day, it doesn't give the person the right, those who oppose a faith, to go out of their way to such persons in the streets, to attack them on such claim, in addition, to vandalism so to speak. Since the case is with the Jehovah's Witnesses, it doesn't give the oppose the right to go to these JWs, insult or belittle them, taking their literature and throwing it on the ground. In doing so, you fuel Christian infighting and the steel doors on Christianity will be breached heavily, thus the decline.

As for pedophiles, you must understand these mentally-ill people are subjected to a psychological disorder that is said to only originate with the someone for they are born with it. The best thing to do is keep them away from child so their urges do not overtake them, or if they already abused a child, to keep them away from children period, other times some have these urges and do not act upon the urge they possess, resulting in seeking help and or treatment, even attempt to go to churches to seek help, thinking it may help them, but for some, the urge is so great they are overtaken by it. Pedophiles are subjected to treatment and the like, however, nothing cannot help what they are born with, a demon that clutches the person while in the womb, as they say. It comes to a point where their inner demons takes them, thus becoming psychopaths in the process, which involves wanting to act out their urges and even wanting to kill a child or a minor; said victim they have access too. The price one pay for imperfection bought from Adam and Eve's disobedience in the Garden of Eden.

So again, not even an opinion, as a Christian, I see the world for what it truly is, imperfection, sin and death, immorality, sickness, war and violence, the whole she-bang and on top of it all, you have the real ruler of the world, as John 12:31, 14:30,16:11, as well as several other verses, importantly 1 John 5:19, informs us. Instead of a focused assault on a single group, learn to look into facts regarding the cases and claims, as I id with the ARC.

There are better ways to fight something, but going about it the wrong way will, as some Christians say, cause something you wouldn't want to happen fast and quick with somewhat of a small positive outcome in your prospective, in addition with a massive negative that will affect a lot of people, putting people of a faith at risk, which had already been made known in Detroit a couple years regarding the attack on all Christians itself. That being said,if you are victim, then go seek counsel, no one is stopping you, I even advise it, for counsel helps people cope with abuse, your anger is to be against the abuser, not against others who were either unaware of it or were even involved, for you as a person, have the choice to seek help and or call the police.

Civil authorities, law enforcement and the like will always be called if criminal activity is suspected, for example, if there's been an accusation of child molestation or anything pertaining to the abuse of child and or in other cases should anything happen to even adults, i.e. a man wielding a machete trying/attempting to access a church or someone armed with a gun trying to break inside a church with people inside, etc. They are far better equipped to decide what if any physical evidence and exculpatory evidence exists in determining the merits of the charges and what consequences should follow if such charges can be provably established and or set in place as for my examples, on how to deal with the situation at hand, preparation beforehand, safety, and the like. Not everyone who goes into a church or trying to access a church wants to hear a gospel of some sort, they come for "other" reasons, which can effect both children and adults, be it minor, disruptive, or something majority, tragic in nature, as we have seen already several months ago.

Usually, when people say such things of some groups and then are asked for proof, they almost always link you to hoards reports and or state lacking evidence to such; full of unproven accusations exclusively levied by ex-members, but that is probably the point, to beat the courts and the public into submission by saturation. 

Regarding JWs or Watchtower, there's the ARC (Australian Royal Commission) since you brought them up, they are accustomed to parroting the number 1,006 unreported (or covered up) so called persons who practice pedophilia. If the ARC had taken action accordingly,  the actual investigation in question, they would have long known that about 492 cases were reported by someone, or lacked sufficient evidence to warrant a report well before 2017 of March, when they were forced to acknowledged that they were wrong about the 1,006, but it would seem that anything to put the group in a negative limelight, 1,006 sounds much better. 

The ARC also acknowledged that between 2015 of August and 2017 of March, only 17 reports of child abuse emerged within the Watchtower group in Australia, two of which declined to report. 

So yes, the watchtower historically has and will probably continue to deal with child abuse within its ranks, but that’s not because of how they handle this or that or how they attempt to do things, it is because of this world we happen to live in where such an desire of being attracted to children exist, and if one cannot see that pedophilia is an issue with persons on a psychological level, than you do not know the world that you are a temporary resident in.

Pedophilia is all over, even us Unitarians are subjected to this, one of the Unitarian denominations had a pastor arrested in speaking to children online, having child pornography, and even threatening children online, saying he was going to or wanting to kill them, etc. Did it stop people from following a faith? Not so much.

As a Christian, we know that there is good people, and there is bad people in this imperfect world, the good will do what they can, but the bad will roam among the good and will always have an intent to do bad, lack of any care or shred of showing repentance for their treacherous heart has overtaken them, and they are eaten up whole by their ill-desires.

That being said, a church, a school, a business will handle things how they see fit, it is up to you to take things a step further if such groups handle things on their end, internally, that is why most of them advise you, yourself to contact the authorities. Even at times, even friends, depending on the person, who do not want to be put into the public view will advise the same thing and or handle the situation for you themselves, everyone different (for Bystander effect/syndrome is a real thing even in the realm of child abuse, not doing anything at all, so to speak).

You'd be surprised how those who analyze everything accordingly will say in their own response, yet they are, as always, attacked by an angry mob for it, then you have the Anti-Religion, who consider this a win regardless of what you tell them.

On 2/12/2018 at 8:32 AM, Matthew9969 said:

I am glad to hear that you are not willing to give up on God. Many who find out the truth about the organization, that it is not Gods organization turn to anger and hatred toward religion and abandon God altogether. Here is a support site for believers leaving the jw religion: http://www.4jehovah.org/

Child abuse is everywhere and so is pedophilia, you and all people should know every man, every woman, every child, is and will always be imperfect until God changes that when the day comes for his Son to return to earth. For such things will not stop someone from following their faith whether you like it or not because Christians are aware of the times they live in. JWs are subjected to this, as well as any church, school, organization, business, child programs, etc. Also, it is something to note, that it is evident that some of these places tend to deal with the problem internally, at times do call for outside help, depending on the situation, the person looking into the situation, etc.

The desire to or be attract to children is an actual sickness, for some claim the origin of such appears at one's birth and develops overtime, for such is even a poison that effects Christians or newly converts who hide such a sickening desire.

4 hours ago, Foreigner said:

It’s was the foundation set by the early church fathers and the papacy, after the death of the last APOSTLE. In that sense, there is a difference when it comes to deciding, by what authority, scripture should be accepted. Unfortunately, that power struggle still exists today, and the majority of Christians continue a fruitless endeavor, through misinterpretation.

A true debate would entail such “false” applications, as the Trinity, Justified Murder through combat, immorality, Hellfire, literal Kingdom of Heaven, on earth, the Physical return of Christ, etc.

For that, not only do we direct ourselves to scripture, for wisdom? We can also, include those that believe in other religions, and those that honestly believe, GOD is SCIENCE with their interpretation of such wisdom. 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Ephesians 5:5.

Ephesians 5 World English Bible (WEB)

5 Be therefore imitators of God, as beloved children. 2 Walk in love, even as Christ also loved you, and gave himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling fragrance. 3 But sexual immorality, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not even be mentioned among you, as becomes saints; 4 nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not appropriate; but rather giving of thanks.

The very embodiment of verse 4 that has become the norm in the NAME of ACADEMIA? Where do you go from here? If, only to a path of destruction by GODÂ’s Standards, NOT the WatchtowerÂ’s.

Quotes:

When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic. –Dresden James

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease being honest. –Unknown

There are two mistakes one can make along the road to truth–not starting, and not going all the way.–Buddha

Yep, and anyone who isn't part of the norm/the mainstream, is usually judged immediately, even among those in Christianity. Trinity believers will call Non-Trinitarians false, cultist, or foolish, that we will burn in hell, the one they call the lake of fire (since they ignore Revelations 20:14 lol). As time progresses, it will be evident of who really tries to stick true to what the scriptures say and who isn't. The sad part is, Christians do not know they are digging a hole right beneath them, for all relentless attacks of Non-Trinitarian believers, some who have their own religious organization leads to things like this:

Christians do not realize the kind of enemy they are making stronger everyday, especially to those who continue to dwell in falsehood and attack those who stick to what is true, you end up having enemies like this from the anti-religion groups: 

For these people are among the Satanist ranks of the Anti-Religion groups, and they were not just attacking all of Christianity, but they were speaking of and convincing people to embrace the so called Spirituality of the world, all that Christians were told to ignore, they tell the people to accept it. I would post the video from a Christian Youtuber, but it may deem too much for the common folk here to bare, but this picture will just be a reminder of how enemies of Christianity are mobilizing everyday while the Christian infighting continues.

 

For any Jehovah's Witnesses here who is reading this, you will expect the black cross and flag Anti-Christian types to suddenly appear before you while you preach in the near future. It happen to a random church a year or two ago, as well as a cemetery dispute about a year ago.

 

Long story short, the falsehood of a man is enough to strengthen the enemy of his enemy.

20 minutes ago, Foreigner said:

Then, A true Christain should take the initiative to CORRECT a WRONG, for starters. However, misleading, misrepresentation, manipulation, and wrongful interpretation of scripture to win a point doesn’t apply. There is NO scholarly benefit involved, by hearing people whine with their personal opinions. And as you stated, there are plenty of OTHER CHRISTAIN sects, yet, instead of spreading that disdain you speak of, to OTHER religions, and THEIR websites? They chose and single out ONE. The irony and hypocrisy of attempting to reach people by citing Christ message, if those opposed continue to BREAK every law Jesus spoke of as well, by acting like the Pharisees. Therefore, how do you, right a wrong, if you allow false statement flourish. You have SAVVY people? Satan was also SAVVY and knew how to use it. How, savvy is a person coming to this website, with no prior knowledge of the Watchtower, other than all the falsehoods found in websites, like this? And you have commenters, here, professing to be Witnesses that agree with opposers views? Then what's the message from these WITNESSES? Ecclesiastes 9:10. 2 Timothy 4:7, Ephesians 6:12, James 1:12.

 

HereÂ’s an Example:

 

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Books, articles, quotes and other materials in our group are not related to the consent or disagreement of the moderators with the views expressed in them. The group of scientific and personal religious views of moderators is their own business.

The goal of the group is educational and enlightening, therefore we publish a variety of things and introduce readers to a wide variety of views.

Subscribers are NOT allowed to post books or articles in the group's comments. If subscribers wish to exchange books, then this exchange can be made in a personal message. The administration of the group will delete all the added materials of the participants. The need for such measures was that lost the feasibility of the administration works on adding books and articles in a group when you add your comments.”
 

 

Then the question remains to those that continue to be a “stumbling” block, and make an attempt to tear down Christ Body, block by block, by THEIR OWN WORDS AND ACTIONS. Isaiah 59:2, 1 Thessalonians 5:20-22.

 

The rabbit hole goes deeper too, especially when it comes to media and online, gonna be a bit off topic about it too.

There are Muslims who debate with Christians time and time again, always go head-to-head with Christians, however, a majority of these Christians, in the Europe, are Trinitarians, who teach a whole different gospel entirely, which results in people either ignoring Christianity or being against it as a whole, especially when it comes to the 3 Gods in 1 belief that angers such persons. This lead Muslims to assume that "all" Christians have the same faith, which is false, for not all Christians believe in the Trinity. You'd be surprised that some of the JWs I had seen who were caught in these debates didn't know they were being targeted as Trinitarians, when it is known that JWs or any Non-Trinitarians don't believe in the Trinity or any teachings that derive from it.

What makes it even more damaging is what these Christians were taught (the videos as evidence), which I use as an example to show how majority of Christians stem far from truth, resulting in Muslims has to correct them or attempt to convert/evangelizing them, these are just 2 debates that I came across a while back 2 months ago. The ironic part was there was one debate, I wish I could find it, a JW opponent, a guy who hates JWs and most Non-Trinitarian groups, just showed the the community how well he didn't know the bible or the scriptures., in addition to that, the assumption of his so called faith is throw at those who are Non-Trinitarians.

Long story short, such actions from mainstream Christianity (teachings that do not reflect scripture) it puts actual Christians (who take scriptures seriously) in the same category of those who preach falsehood. 

Here are 2 video examples of Muslims/Christians debates solely on the bible, as well as statistics on Christianity in European/Asia countries:

For we see that even those the Muslims debated against do not really know the scriptures quite well, and I can say this now, there is dozens and dozens of debates like this, even Non-Trinitarian Christians vs Trinitarian Christians, which consist of major players who will do whatever it takes to bring down or try to refute Non-Trinitarian Christians, even belittling them.

Also it is said in Europe that Christianity, for the church isn't living up to what the scriptures say, and isn't putting focus or any interest in what it offers, resulting in a slowly, but sure decline in Europe: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/05/christians-remain-worlds-largest-religious-group-but-they-are-declining-in-europe/

As well as Asia, specifically South Korea: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/01/christian-churches-sharp-decline-south-korea-180101095855604.html

For Christianity is also on a decline in South Korea among organized mainstream Christianity.

 

 

The United States (among millennial/young people): http://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2016/may/what-latest-bible-research-reveals-about-millennials.html

There are those who are close to the truth to do what is necessary to stick to the truth, while others are just not putting the effort are far from it. Some take into account of what is not biblical or bible canon results in the disinterest, the decline and one and off debates seen throughout the web and media.

Christians will always correct the wrong, even those who are not even Christians who know the bible, but at the end, falsehood is so great it is tough to get your word across. That being said, there is A LOT of people being mislead, that leads to a decline, not being interested in the bible, and so forth. Those who take the scripture seriously are the ones who tend to be steadfast in truth. But yeah, the Christian forums I come from tend to speak of such time and time again.

3 verses I like to bring up:

Deuteronomy 4:2 - You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.

Matthew 28:19 - Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

John 10:35 - If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—

So yes, e should fight falsehood within Christendom, however, you will have to realize, also with everyone here, the spread of falsehood is so great in Christianity, it tends to show others outside of the faith that we are all false and believe what the Trinitarians believe, as well as a change and contradictory to scripture, mind you, this was also talked about by a Christian who was right about videos like this popped up left and right, sooner or later, and here we are now.

2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So then, where do you imagine the 'anointed' go to when they leave the Org' ?  Do they form another religious group ? Are you saying that there is no need to be an organised religion ?  The early Christians had a group of 'Older men' starting with the disciples / Apostles. They formed congregations as we know by Paul's writings.  It was only when the Romans took over Christianity that it got out of line really. My personal opinion is that the scriptures were written to be understood by an 'anointed class', not for everyone to understand, but then that causes the problem of needing an honest 'anointed class' of people.... I do agree with you about the Org changing the meaning of scriptures quite often. does it mean they are trying to jump ahead of the guidance from God ? Guessing their way through. It's difficult. Is JW / WT the true religion just needing cleansing ? Or is it totally wrong and is there a need for God to set up a new Organisation ? 

The Romans adopted Christianity, but they still held true to their pagan celebrations and wild parties, in addition to the practices and teachings regarding good and evil spirits. Constantine the Great only made Christianity legal, whereas Theodosius decreed Christianity to be a state religion after being instructed by one of those who adhere to the Nicene Creed, in addition to that,Theodosius decreed everyone follow the Nicene Creed otherwise they’d be branded as unchristian, sometimes find themselves to be sentence to far worse consequences and possible death, for they had to accept the decreed out of fear for some.

In short, Romans didn't play around,especially when it comes to religion (Christianity).