Space Merchant

1 hour ago, Witness said:

SM, you bring to the table, phrases and philosophies outside of the Wt. That's fine, but if I choose to call the GB "prosperity preachers", it is because they are.

On the contrary Witness, these aren't philosophies, they're historical accounts concerning Christianity, mainly when it comes to origin. A Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental things, about existence, reason, knowledge, values, mind, and language, majority of which does not correlate with Christian Christology. Such questions are often posed as problems to be studied or resolved. Now, Christian philosophy differs greatly and most of the time, it is against what is in the core teachings, to some degree, the Scriptures alludes this when it came to anything that is accursed.  Christian philosophy is the set of philosophical ideas initiated in 2nd century to the present day, and it continues to now, I even refuted some of it here. Christian philosophy emerged with the aim of reconcile science and faith, starting from natural rational explanations, some of which generated over the centuries with its independent scientific and philosophical theories,  which even correlates with the idea of coexistence. It is also the direct result of paganism from some, like the Greeks.

Sure you can choose, as you stated, but isn't that in of itself spreading a lie to inform everyone that Restorationist are what they were against even prior to the 19th century Great Awakening? Remember, you spoke heavily about slander and lies, even that of misinformation, but clearly, you, misinforming people the difference between a Restorationist, be it a Jehovah's Witnesses, even you, also a Restorationist to that of anyone of the Prosperity Theology, derived from New Thought. Even when the facts are presented, you purposely refuse, which is telling because you were always open to facts when it fits your favor, although in some cases an err.

This is evidently the simplest of a historical accounts in Christian history, anyone can read.

That being said, if they are considered such by you, can you explain why they adhere to Commission and not believe Jesus to be God when 100% of Anti-Trinitarians do not believe Jesus is God? I mean, you were pretty clear on John 1:1, were you not?

1 hour ago, Witness said:

They may not fit your definition according to your restricted terms,

These aren't my terms, they are straight from historical accounts and facts. It is evident you have Gnosiophobia in this regard. The irony here myself, Srecko and Evo essentially cited all historical sources, and said information was presented many times. I see this as a sad remark on your part because you just the following of mixing New Thought with Restorationism.

That said, it isn't my definition, if I recall, I was not born in the days Restorationism came out of it's predecessor - not of us were, at is. And God knows what you'd say if we bring up Subordinationism, which is essentially what birthed Restorationism.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

I choose to call the GB "prosperity preachers", it is because they are. 

This is willful slander regardless of disagreement with JWs. In this regard you only prove JWs to be right concerning misinformation. Although you can give point as to why GB is wrong, but to commit to a lie to even push your resolve is bad, mainly in the face of those who dealt with New Thought Christians. This is why people like Francis Chan always wins, and more and more people are swept by Babylon, from misinformation such as this.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

but their actions show them up to be men who revel in fleshly desires and dominance over others. 

So if they're Prosperity Preachers as you said, what is the reason for Jehovah's Witnesses to be preachers let alone adhere to Commission and why they do not believe in the Trinity?  Prosperity Preachers do not have preachers besides them and their circle and they hold the Trinity to an extremely HIGH regard. They are among the worse to deal with because of Interfaith involvement.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

That is only possible by promoting the need for money.

So this should be answered then - If they're Prosperity Preachers as you said, what is the reason for Jehovah's Witnesses to be preachers let alone adhere to Commission and why they do not believe in the Trinity? 

1 hour ago, Witness said:

Lumping the Wt into your worldly definitions may work for you, but it doesn't work with me. 

It isn't a worldly term, it is direct notation the Apostolic Age whereas Subordinationism existed. After the councils and everything that transpired, such ones came back as Restorationist in an attempt to not just restore the church, but the Scriptures. This is the reason why you have the notation of the 2 camps concerning God and Christ, with the latter believing Jesus is the Son of the Living God, Matthew 16:16.

The Jehovah's Witnesses are still considered Restorationist due to their history, even as Bible Students, and those who predate them - the facts were brought up.

Granted you like Bible Gateway, here you go concerning The Age of the Apostles - https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/encyclopedia-of-the-bible/Apostolic-Age

1 hour ago, Witness said:

but it doesn't work with me. 

You were adamant of history before, so why the change?

1 hour ago, Witness said:

I don't need to dig into New Thought Theology or New Ageism

It isn't much of a dig up when you can simply look at the history of Christianity. You also just confused New Thought with literally Anti-Trinitarianism. If I may add, as I recall you briefly attested to New Ageism from your source in the past and you never corrected your statement, you were checked on that and informed on what New Ageism actually is. Again, even an err and not knowing can reap problems.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

to understand that the scriptures relate to "my people"

If that was the case, then you would not have been called out on this in the past, even now concerning Christian history.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

he "saints"/priesthood in the organization. (Rev 18:4-8) 

Then Kosnen would not have checked you also for he speaks of himself as chosen. In his defense, he knows Christian history, and would not reduce himself to ignorant slander, which in turn, can cause people to be misinformed.

That being said, I suggest you learn the history because you showed yourself to be very brittle in this regard.

And thanks to you, you just have legitimately gave Prosperity Preachers some canon fodder granted all of this is public.

No Anti-Trinitarian would make such confusion, even if you are not for JWs.

30 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

He wasn’t thinking that. Though yours is obviously the correct answer, the only authority Jack cares about distancing people from is that of the Jehovah’s Witness organization. Most likely, the other authorities he has no problem following, and may even recommend that course, even should they all lead their followers off a cliff, like the pigs of Jesus’ day.

Well he is an Atheist who isn't open to reason and at times professes falsehood and information, especially towards all faiths. So Atheists are easily susceptible to such higher powers in the authoritarian space. Ironically enough, although they have opposition to religions, they are the first to adhere to Babylon through the Wild Beast, there are examples. In regards to higher education, they do not realize some of the material is essentially tenderizing them for the Beast, in addition, the whole left vs. right paradigm - which is evident in the notation of Critical Race Theory, Homosexuality, and Politics.

That being said, such persons has more branches than a large tree.

Also a bit random but do not panic if you hear anything related to FEMA Testing. People like Jack often do panic.

To address the question, since there is a lot - 

And you are absolutely correct, the same cohorts, hence no change, for when a topic emerges, it is the same outcome. Should anyone, like JWI create a thread the main subject matter is deviated when people throw in secondary topics and then some. As you pointed out in the other thread, it is primarily anything pertaining to JWs, anything pertaining to Child Sex Abuse, anything pertaining to Bible Translations. The same outcome as to which even misinformation and lies are professed as truth, i.e. someone just days ago used an illegitimate source known as Smurf Girl in an attempt to prove a point regarding a Leftist political power, not realizing her own camp called her out for falsehood and wild accusations in parallel to Fearon and Zelda, also deemed false. Then we have the case regarding, again, discussed elsewhere, Child Sex Abuse, for time and time it is brought up, but you can see those that "Bark" about the matter, never "Bite". One I attested a challenge to in particular after the Redress Scheme, and you can see nothing was achieved on JB's end, despite the fact having access to social media, even more evident when for showing "care" of the matter, such are unaware of what took place around it let alone the uproar, and the fact Newscorp was proven false due to the fact the story was wiped by the majority afterwards, and the funny thing is, once it is send and done, they abandon all talk about it, hence Australia.

I believe I addressed the fact when I came back, it was still more so the same.

In my case, I still refute deception, lies, misconceptions, misinformation about Abrahamic Faiths, even more now due to the emergence of fringe groups, mainly the ones who think COVID-19 is a "gift" from God to eradicate unbelievers, which is crazy. I still deal with independents, even my connections in Russia and parts of the EU, thanks to the Truther Community. Speaking about the Truther Community, we act as one because what we did concerning information on various things, but specifically on today's society, missing and or abused persons, one case being Sophie Long (hence #StandWithSophie), of which we thought we had a good ending to, but seems another series of events took place in regards to missing persons, we are still focusing on that, mainly some Truthers who live in Texas. I did not bother putting up a Missing Persons thread because I was caught up in the event regarding Sophie, and around that time was when I got an invitation, which explained why I myself was out too. Missing persons isn't easy, and it is not always fun, and at rare times, a good ending, positive outcome, in a sense Truthers have a love for folks and do all necessary to help out, and of course, if one is threatened and or attack, it effects all of us.

NOTE: Misinformation was the reason this escalated, in a sense, tricking the law itself, and YouTubers spreading wrong information only creates more problems. Some even mocking the siltation. The girl has been missing since July 7th.

Aside from that, Child Sex Abuse, we have been for a long time, and even now pressing on that. We even found some defenders of abuse on various media, ironically, even some who are of the EXJW community, surely they either do not know or won't tell you about it. Then there is COVID-19, granted I have a disdain for misinformation, I trek a little bit on that due to the actions of the MSM.

That being said, the whole bark and bite notation, this is what I am, have been doing. Mainly when there is a lot of information circulating around the Truther Community as is with a subnet group I was invited to, which is part of it. As for Faith, always strong mainly for the fact I am openly aware of legitimate opponents, Babylon and the Wild Beast, and what they've been doing and what they are going to do, so Proverbs 22:3 and refences to it is taken seriously.

I pointed out elsewhere that you, a Jehovah's Witness, and some like you are knowing of who Babylon the Great is, as is the united Nations, however, you may not know of their recent actions and what they'll do next. I pointed our Prosperity Preachers, and the fact they are essentially rivals to Anti-Trinitarians, you included, for their movement, joined with others such as The Interfaith, is a tool used by Babylon to attack and to convert. More power to use due to COVID-19, so that is another factor. So many people will get swept away, for again, New Thought Movement, if someone was able to get that confused with anything pertaining to Restorationism, there is a high chance they too, will be consumed by Babylon and that is a fact.

As for my current ongoing debates, they're concerning Church Burnings, child sex abuse in relations to the Canadian Church Burnings, Left vs. Right Paradigm, and debating against falsehood concerning the fringe and mentality unstable folks who do not know God, who emerged from COVID-19. And a lot of cowardly people in this space who go about baseless claims, which there is plenty of.

@Equivocation That is a good one - Gnosiophobia. A phobia of knowledge. Knowledge and experience is vital and key, those of which I both have, hence the history of learning, upbringing, even debates and discussion I have been in online and in person. Majority of my debates were always with Trinitarians, former JWs, former Muslims, Jehovah Warriors, Calvinist, Posterity Preachers, Black Israelites and Atheists. Even outside of that Scripture, there is the Constitution, World Powers, Opinion to some independents, and the Left vs Right Paradigm, of which is often the battleground for Truthers. In this realm, I actually have a few rivals/frenemies in this regard, one of him I defended. But knowledge and experience to some is demonized because they are in the fear of being wrong or incorrect; should you make a mistake, although to commit error, they would likely use it against you. Even here, you can see this with the lack of Christian History when one purposely confuses a legitimate Religious rival who is a Babylon tool, for another, for this alone shows how Satan will use such in the future due to a willful and mistake.

And to add, Subordinationism is somewhat the birth anything related to Restorationism, as is being the earliest adversary of the Trinity Doctrine concerning the Christ.

Also your points are sound, like this one [We believe in the commission - preaching of the good news, they believe that God gives riches and wealth in abundance, using Scripture to increase their personal wealth.]

Also

9 hours ago, Equivocation said:

[1] He made a point that in today's world, pedophilia, a disorder, that there are people out there trying to normalize it allegedly; mainly people who exploit the "I was born this way" term, and the few who attempt to act out their sin. There are also people out there who seem to pimp off their children to adults, which is, both true and tragic. Most people do not even consider lower class children when it comes to abuse; homeless kids, who get trapped into this, or led to believe that regardless of their age, they can give their themselves to someone. As for the problem itself, it always starts in the home.

[2] Giving child abusers a green light. Pedophilia is bad. People need to be careful of enticing abusers to other people and or groups, even soft targets. The EXJWs, some, equate congregations to being a "paradise" for these types of people, not realizing there are abusers who hang out on social media, even reddit, and they do have their own space on reddit talking about things, some who wish they were dead because of their strong interest in child; wanting to commit suicide. So enticing the abuser is a bad idea, so essentially someone can indirectly setup a school or a congregation, even a club for a potential danger, even on media, for Youtube, Tiktok, Snapchat, Facebook practically enabled abusers to find more victims. Disney was recently an example for letting it's guard down. This is why people who fight child abuse, do not joke around. It does get harder because of this, intensified with the first point. It is bad enough when abusers are attempting kidnapping children, mainly for the fact when jokes can be taken seriously.

That is essentially what has been taking place for the ones unequipped regardless of institutions. This is what shows the difference between such people vs Activist on the matter, for they, as mentioned before, go on a warpath that only results in more problems, at times, they themselves do not know right behind them their are abusers and those who defend abuse, ironically enough ExJWs got defenders in there and they do not even know it. And you're right, in some media, such ones often send the abusers in the direction of children unknowingly. In the Truther Community, many, including myself has seen and read crazy things, this is why the kids I taught applied everything they learned to better protect themselves. The situation with pedophilia stems from today's ill minded society, and gets worse in the US and the UK, whereas in the UK is is complex due to how the law works there - for the justice system is unclean at times.

That being said, I am aware of such people lurking on social media, even in places like read, I think on YouTube one of them was reinstated.
 

14 hours ago, Witness said:

I'll tell you what.  You stop lumping the wt. in with "restorationists", and I'll stop applying your term, "prosperity preachers" to the GB.  Instead, I'll use a scripture:

‘The leech has two daughters.
    “Give! Give!” they cry.  Prov 30:15 

 

The problem here is, what was linked and shown to you were historical facts. Anti-Trinitarians who are trying to be like, strive to be are Restorationist, you are technically one yourself - the primary reason - you do not believe Jesus to be God. I suggest you read study up, to confuse it with New Thought Theology is just willful ignorance.

It is that mentality of which Kosenen was correct about.

That being said, ironic how you express ignorance on the history, as you have done with New Ageism.

But like I said, Prosperity Preachers were as such and the fact that they get less heat coming their way only makes Babylon stronger.

@Srecko Sostar It has nothing to do with Activism. And the fact you mention you did nothing is telling. If you have access to media, you can teach/give insight on the matter. If I recall, you laughed at the thought of aiding children even though half the information was pulled from child sex abuse and prevention sources.

And no, the terminology of the latter did not change, granted, paid spots and programmed spots still exist.

But even if JWs attempted Televangelism, Babylon won't allow it - blocked. And granted you made references to Restorationism, you should realize that the ones that maintain their roots are not fans of Televangelism.

@AraunaUnfortunately, this is the case made by a lot of people. At times former members of a faith group just go on their way, most of the time, if they seek God (Allah), they end up adopting a lot of ideas that. If not there, most disgruntled few stem into apostasy. Then you have the rift between former members and those that dwell on odd ideas, hope at times, will combat each other, in some instances, they'll end up defending their former faith against a former faith brother or sister, in other cases, it spawns Christian Infighting also called infighting of faith where as it is like a 2 or 3 way wrestling match at times. Even outside of Religion, this applies to the common man or woman regarding views, even in the higher education system regards students.

That being said, as the fact and point I made clear to the latter regarding Televangelism, the root of JWs and Bible Students, even the rest of the Anti-Trinitarian camp who make up Restorationist, wouldn't even consider such. It is one of the very reasons why back then Prosperity Preachers were dominate due to having such technology to do what they do, and to this day, there is still the enemy aspect between them and Anti-Trinitarians. The history is clear, but as you see, people refuse to even do research and assume things, conjuring misinformation themselves. It amazes me how some ignore the fact of what the real enemy is doing, therefore, when Babylon sweeps, there would not be anything to say for such ones because they've been told.

But let's imagine your faith does Televangelism, that would mean siding with Babylon wholeheartedly. This is why, in reality, you wouldn't be able to regardless if you tried, granted, Babylon already deems you an enemy. 

1 hour ago, Witness said:

Prosperity theology (sometimes referred to as the prosperity gospel, the health and wealth gospel, the gospel of success, or seed faith)is a religious belief among some Protestant Christians that financial blessing and physical well-being are always the will of God for them, and that faith, positive speech, and donations to religious causes will increase one's material wealth.  

Did you even bother to look at the citation on the wiki quotation? Evidently - no. Also Restorationism aren't Protestants, since Protestant was the result of a break away from Catholicism. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Protestantism#16th_century

• Wilson, J. Matthew (2007). From Pews to Polling Places: Faith and Politics in the American Religious Mosaic. Georgetown University Press. ISBN 978-1-58901-172-4.

That being said, it shows you really do not know the history of Prosperity Preachers, let alone of where they originated from.

Again, those who know the history can speak on said history. Just highlighting a quotation without knowing the citation or context behind it shows the lack.

I encourage you to learn the difference.

• https://www.britannica.com/event/Great-Awakening
• https://www.britannica.com/event/New-Thought
• https://www.britannica.com/topic/universal-restoration
• And of course, as I recall you allusion to New Ageism, which is also cited in said source - https://www.britannica.com/topic/New-Age-movement (This is linked to the Spirituality theology by the way)

This still stands

1 hour ago, Witness said:

You know, things are always as they seem on the surface.  In the organization’s case, the only one benefitting from “prosperity theology” are the preachers – the gb and the elders at the top.  They build with gusto, they buy and sell       real estate, they live behind locked gates protected from the world, their needs are met.  They don’t physically work with their hands as the apostle Paul did, as many of the adherents do.  They don’t worry about receiving a paycheck, paying bills, wondering where the next meal will come from.  They have no basic need worries.  There is no example of walking in the footsteps of Jesus Christ, in these prosperity preachers. 

I don't focus on surface information sadly. Again, you are making a claim of which Restorationist in general have a strong disdain for - Prosperity Preachers and everything pertaining to it. We see here you are equating two rivals together of which whom do not like each other for a very very long time, even before JWs existed. This stems back to again, The Great Awakening prior to, during and after. As pointed out in the past, Restorationist mostly use whatever means to push the Commission, they do not do what the Prosperity Preachers are doing, for which you are equating the two, which seems to be the case because you attempt this with Smurf and Zelda, in addition to that fact, you could not make any connection of the two.

How can you call Restorationist Christians Prosperity Preachers if they for a very very LONG time have consider them sworn enemies?

1 hour ago, Witness said:

You may know a lot about a lot of things, but you just don't know what it is to be a JW...for decades.  

"Experience is the teacher of all things"  Julius Caesar

I do know a lot and I have experience, this is why I live up to what I said

On 7/27/2018 at 1:25 PM, Space Merchant said:

that alone should tell you something for me and others who study religions

On 7/19/2018 at 3:48 PM, Space Merchant said:

I said the following: No, but I am very well aware of their Christology and the only reason I speak of them is because there is many misconceptions and things said of them that can and will be addressed

Christology is the field of study within Christian theology itself, which is primarily concerned with the ontology and person of Jesus as recorded in the Gospels Accounts and the Epistles shown in the Greek the New Testament. The ontology and person of Jesus in conjunction with his relationship with that of God the Father. Christology is concerned with the details of Jesus' ministry, his acts and teachings, to arrive at a clearer understanding of who he is in his person, and his role in salvation. The views of Paul the Apostle provided a major component of the Christology of the Apostolic Age. To some extend at times the levels reach to based Apostolic Christology. This also connects with Exegesis and Hermeneutics in regards to Theological studies of both scripture and history of said text.

Such also falls in line with the study of religion, their theology, practices, beliefs in regards to the teachings and or the Church, of which the foundation itself is the Christ.

So the idea of, your claim of Anti-Trinitarians, among them, Restorationist being like that of a rival of whom some spoke ill of, is false here.

In all respects, like I said to you before, you say you are chosen, but little lies and errs you at times preach as a truth. The very reason Kosenen called you out on this, as have I. Be careful of what you profess if the history speaks more truth. As for any JW here, they are rooted from Restorationism, due to it being their history be it they know it or not.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

I believe they are well on their way.  

Again, and I will quote myself:

2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

majority of the Restorationism community do not do televangelism at all, be it individuals (granted most are off grid) or a group.

That being said, they won't do such nor are they on their way, for Restorationists, as a whole, do not adhere to what the mainstream does. Babylon wouldn't even allow it if they tried, due to what has been taking place regarding religion from the early 2000s to now, even more due to former members of the faith in question.

So your belief does not reside with the history, let alone the view of Restorationist Christians, mainly due to the fact of how they themselves view Prosperity Preachers. Likewise with Prosperity Preachers, who for over the years mock others who do not do the same as they do regarding Televangelism, i.e. Creflo Dollar, an American televangelist. Some of the off grid Restorationists had a lone of negative things to say about Televangelism for years now.

Prosperity Preachers are rooted from The New Thought movement (also called  Higher Thought), is a spiritual movement which coalesced in the United States in the early 19th century, this was around the same time the Great Awakening took place. It was during the Healing Revivals of the 1950s that Prosperity Theology first came to prominence in the United States in full force - thus these types of preachers are born.

1 hour ago, Witness said:

That term fits the organization's leaders, perfectly.

No, it does not. hence the following -  how they themselves view Prosperity Preachers.

Restorationist, and most Anti-Trinitarian Christians are, in this case, sworn enemies of Prosperity Preachers (similarly to how Muslims view Televised Dawah). This so called rivalry was possibly due to everything that transpired after the Great Awakening of Christianity (which is true hence the history) and where the Prosperity Preachers came in some years later to shift the battleground due to tools and technology unitized in that time, as for Televangelism, during the 1960s, Prosperity Preachers embraced it and came to dominance with televised religious programming in the United States, the first among them in this regard being Granville Oral Roberts was an American Charismatic Christian televangelist, ordained in both the Pentecostal Holiness and United Methodist churches. He was among the first, developing a weekly program that became the most watched religious show in the United States, and others followed suite in the Prosperity space. In the 1990s and 2000s, it was adopted by Influential Leaders in the Pentecostal Movement and Charismatic Movement in the United States and has spread around the globe.

This is why Prosperity Preachers often use uncanny information to demonize anyone who is in the camp of Anti-Trinitarian, example would be Francis Chan, who essentially weaponized the Bible against not to just JWs and Anti-Trinitarians, even won over a big number of ExJWs (true - if you go to any material where preachers like him speaks of JWs, him specifically, likewise with those against the Trinity as a whole) and others of former faiths  prior to and after the Babylon fueled event of 2016, as stated in the other thread, Babylon's wave took a lot of folks, even EXJws.

Lastly, the very reasons they do this with Anti-Trinitarians is because their root of existence, which was explained.

Also as for the verses you mentioned, not sure what was the reason for citing it.

That being said,

The situation with them and these types of preachers is no different to the difference between those who had their view of Jesus, Jesus being the Son of God, and those that see Jesus as God, going as far as to alter the Scriptures, even killing people, to do so.

Other then that Prosperity Preachers are essentially an obstacle for sometime now, granted Babylon has been using them.

History is always key, Witness, mainly if the history is factual. 

Also Tiktok?

Oh, mon doux enfant dété.

On 8/8/2021 at 7:56 PM, Jack Ryan said:

Televangelism

They don't do televangelism, in fact, majority of the Restorationism community do not do televangelism at all, be it individuals (granted most are off grid) or a group.

televangelism is primarily used by Charismatic Preachers otherwise known as Prosperity Preachers.

Mainstream Christians and or those of that mindset tend to focus so much on a literal since of Scripture and ignore context, in some instances, will sacrifice a passage, and or a meaning for the sake of their own understanding - something of which the Scriptures encourages us to avoid, especially those who do not know and or have any understanding of the usage of a word concerning hand(s) and it's placement in a scripture, with showing a sense of ignorance in this regard, even for Strong's Concordances - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g5495/esv/tr/0-1/

In the account of the Romans, they are quite meticulous when it comes to the crucifixion of their victims, hence the nailing of said victims, even the Christ. As stated, the anatomy of wrists has always been part of the hands, and concerning the Christ, majority of people think the nails were driven between the small bones of the wrists to prevent the stripping out the flesh, prevention of tearing, which would most likely be the case if the nails were literally have driven through the palms.  The small bone in question is called the metacarpals, the hand bones between your fingers and wrist made up of five long bones, and the the hand bones connected to the wrist joints (trapezium, trapezoid, capitate, and hamate).

The wrist is also referred to as the anatomical wrist - This is the area between the first and second row of carpal bones in the heel of the hand. To continue, the ligaments that join the bones together are much stronger than those that join the bones of the palm(s), so they would be better able to support the weight of a hanging victim’s body - thus forcing the victim, in this case, Jesus, to support himself in order to breathe at least, whereas it would be a struggle due to his feet being impaled too - tormented.

Other instances of the word and some parallels: 

In numerous Bible translations, the word for hands in Greek being cheir (χείρ, χειρός, ἡ) in some root is in connection to parts of the hand, and it is no different from it's Hebraic counterpart - יָד (yad). This in turn makes it correct and consistent with the usages of the word hand in Scripture, some examples would be such as Judges 15:14 concerning Samson, the legendary Israelite warrior and judge:

[When he came to Lehi, the Philistines came shouting to meet him. Then the Spirit of the Lord rushed upon him, and the ropes that were on his arms became as flax that has caught fire, and his bonds melted off his hands.]

We see here in this verse that it shows that bonds to restraint him, of which he broke out of, him were on his hands, and evidently, when people are bonded, it is by their wrists.

Another example Genesis 24:47:

[Then I asked her, ‘Whose daughter are you?’ She said, ‘The daughter of Bethuel, Nahor’s son, whom Milcah bore to him.’ So I put the ring on her nose and the bracelets on her hands.]

In this verse where the word יָד (yad) is used to point out Rebekah had bracelets placed on her hands [arms in some translations] (to be worn on her hands), obviously, bracelets are on your wrists. Granted there is no other Strong's to replace the one for יָד (yad) there is no violation, as some claim to believe.

Aside from Jesus, we have other examples like Paul and Silas in Philippi, Acts 16:25-31: 25. In verse 24, we see their feet is bounded, however in reality, the bounds are around their ankles. Peter was also another example in Acts 12:7, whereas he had bounds (removed by an Angel) on his hands - wrists.

Some even go about as to mentioned an item they consider a holy cloth relic that survived throughout the centuries, such as the Shroud of Turin. For many Christians they believe that the Shroud of Turin, provides even further evidence, but I see it as irrelevant.

Aside from that, is there an violation of Scripture in regards to a word for Hands such as Wrists, forearm, arm, etc.? The simple answer is No.

At the end of the day, what matters is not HOW the Christ dies, but WHY he died. To be reduced to the mindset of Mainstream Christianity to bring for claim is absurd, in all instances.

NOTES:

Crownjewel82 from CSE - The word used in the Bible can mean any part of the hand or arm. People who study crucifixion in general found that the nails most often went through the wrist and that the weight of the body would cause the nail to tear through the flesh of the hand as is most commonly depicted in Christian art. Thus, a fairly common view is that the nails actually went through the wrist.

Nail placement
Crucifixion window by Henry E. Sharp, 1872, in St. Matthew's German Evangelical Lutheran Church, Charleston, South Carolina In popular depictions of the crucifixion of Jesus (possibly because in translations of John 20:25 the wounds are described as being "in his hands"), Jesus is shown with nails in his hands. But in Greek the word "χείρ", usually translated as "hand", could refer to the entire portion of the arm below the elbow,[38] and to denote the hand as distinct from the arm some other word could be added, as "ἄκρην οὔτασε χεῖρα" (he wounded the end of the χείρ, i.e., "he wounded her in the hand".[39]

38 - In the Homeric Greek of the Iliad XX, 478–480, a spear-point is said to have pierced the χεῖρ "where the sinews of the elbow join" (ἵνα τε ξενέχουσι τένοντες / ἀγκῶνος, τῇ τόν γε φίλης διὰ χειρὸς ἔπειρεν / αἰχμῇ χακλκείῃ).

39 - χείρ. Liddell, Henry George; Scott, Robert; A Greek–English Lexicon at the Perseus Project

Misc.: sources

• https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3683284/
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifixion
• https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/19649/when-jesus-was-nailed-to-the-cross-did-the-nails-go-through-his-hands-or-throug

@Thinking Isn't there any instance of a house holder wanting you to come speak with them during the pandemic? Granted some restrictions are "temporarily" lessen in some cases.

1 hour ago, Pudgy said:

I get my news from the Babylon Bee ….. or The Onion. It’s biting satire, yes, but it has a basis in truth. MSN and CNN can screw up a Farm Report.

I stick to Independents. MSM is a cancer, especially MSN and CNN. As for Jack Dorsey, he is part of Big Tech, so you cannot put trust in the man, granted the removal of decentralization and the one currency talk that has been mentioned for several years. Agenda 2030 will be problematic.

This is why it is wise to make due with the time that you have, in all things prior to End Time Tribulations. On the other side of the spectrum, in the religious space things are getting heated, mainly with what is going on as of recent.

1 hour ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

However some on here didn't like that so they deliberately diverted the topic. 

I believe that was you, I only spoke to Linda James - evidence below

You also began quite early, as seen below:

As for your rehash of the topic, there are no translation errors in the verses mentioned SINCE there is no violation of text. It is more so a matter of if a word and or passage is in violation of the text or not, a single strong can have different words, and have different meaning depending on where it is use, however, if it is something totally different, as in the number, then you have a case. - A mic drop to that, case and point. There is no need to speak on the notation any further. This was dropped on the first page by@BroRando who quoted a CSE response concerning the subject matter.

49 minutes ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

SM you write so much and repeat so much that is all becomes one big blurr. Like a train rattling along a railroad track. 

It is in regards to this you saying Truthers have no heart. The point I made about you making a claim and shying away from is a true statement. Even outside of that, the same game was done yet again.

51 minutes ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

You see this. Do you see your attitude here ? Do you not get the sense that you are a bully ?  Are you so blind ?

You can't handle debates - truth, this is in regards to no attitude, it is truth. I can tell you this, I have been in many, many debates, granted CSE has its corner for debates and when I started, I made mistakes many, many times concerning history of Christianity, technically I was like you, it was only then I went to study up more, even told to do so because I was unable to handle the gravity of debates, and when I got back to debating months later, concerning the church and the Trinity and from there, I built off of that, years later, to present day, despite the fact I come from a heavy Biblical background, for the older I got, the serious I got about it. If an avid debater says you can't, just like how I was early on, it is truth. You need to do a lot more for the betterment for yourself if you seek debates, be in live, irl, forums, etc.

How is it bullying if it is truth? You said not too long ago the following:

2 hours ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

I am interested in open debate.

This is why I said be careful of what you wish for, for, if we debated about Hermeneutics, Dietary Laws, etc. It will not end well. That is why I suggested to you do research on core teachings.

58 minutes ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

And that is why they were not answered. Because they were so obvious that it would have been a waste of time answering them.  That isn't debate, that is stupidity. 

Then you should not not brought up Romans 12:9, let alone what you said which had NO context.

When I said this:

On 8/7/2021 at 6:24 PM, Space Merchant said:

Although Apostasy, being an alienation from God, it can spell disaster in some instances.

You responded with this:

On 8/8/2021 at 7:25 AM, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

You are concerned what 'the cool folks' say ?  I prefer the words of the apostle Paul at Romans 12 : 9

"Love must be sincere. Detest what is evil; cling to what is good." 

Those in apostasy that roam in instances that spell disaster, even in the face of a faithful person, does not abhor what is bad. This is why the remark, by you, did not make any sense, hence why the question addressed.

Haters of God do not cling to what is good, they cling to what is bad, and they target those who worship God constantly, but to the faithful man, he knows what persecution entails.

Of course you see it as stupidity, but a wise man who attest to the truth. A wise man would not make an assumption without understanding. God's people, and his chosen would address the truth of the matter, even in the gospel ministry, also fact.

That being said, I believe the task of examination should be done on your part, JB.

1 hour ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

If you are refering to me, i am not concerned with 'getting a reaction' from anyone. I am interested in open debate.

Because it is true. If it were not, it would not have been said.

You are not someone who is equipped for a debate(s), especially if it is solely Bible based, so do not ask for something you know you cannot handle, mainly towards someone who started off from CSE and debated a lot there for a time (as with Trinitarians irl in the post Bible debate era) this is evident by the questions addressed earlier, which was not answered, although they were very obvious - for we know what the Bible speaks of concerning marriage. Wild accusations and an appeal of motive also shows you are not capable of such, for the last debate here concerning religious leadership and or seat of office, the focus was on the Bible, but the common theme I see is they need to interject JWs or the Watchtower. Even with finances regarding bonds, Solutions to aid children, or that of the United Nations, JWs/Watchtower is always invoked.

So - be careful of what you wish for. I already have pity for the misguided because they do not know any better.

That being said, a debate is the last thing you need, and such will be left at that.

1 hour ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

Also, I do not equate all JWs to be alike.  That would be doing the same as some on here do about Ex-JWs. 

Receipts can be found, and some people act upon something that they say they would not do at times.

Also be minimum discernment, you are an ExJW, thus it level you open to nearly everything, and more so, you do not deal with people who are at a certain level.

1 hour ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

I do however think that all JWs believe the same things regarding their religion, otherwise why are they JWs ?

But even outside of belief, you speak of such. This is evident with the Strong's itself, or the very Hermeneutics of Scripture, like here, concerning Hands/Wrists, where you jump to the Watchtower with a total disregard to Concordances and what was concluded in the crucifixion.

We know by the concordances of what the Scriptures speaks of concerning those who or imprisoned, and how they are, as is with the way Jesus was handled. As stated, reading into things literally is problematic, which does not differ from the Trinitarians, Jehovah Warriors, KJV-Onlyist, who says Jesus is God because they see God mentioned close to the Messiah by name, when in reality, there is a distinction between God and Christ. Likewise with the nails being impaled into the Christ, we should look at the real meaning, as is historical depiction and the history of crucifixions as a whole, in this case, excluding the cross/stake notation since that isn't the focus.

1 hour ago, Patiently waiting for Truth said:

How could they preach and teach if they did not believe the same things ? 

So what is their view on where the nail has been placed? It isn't different from the majority.

If you want to talk about differences, there are those who take into account of dangers, and those that do not within Christianity. Just from your last response, this can be found concerning endurance and vigilance, of which the Bible states we must have.

That being said, you made the biggest claim of this month concerning a community, who contributes everything for lost souls, you were called to tasked to answer, you shying away from it only proves the point made.

Again, making a claim or an accusation about something of which you know nothing of is a huge mistake, and you never address you made a mistake most of the time. If you'd said that to said community in question, and the fact that you are a former Jehovah's Witness the reaction, for some of them will be colorful, mainly after what they contributed.

I still wait on the claim though, so I did not forget about that, for that is quite damning of an accusation.

They're still active, granted when someone or a group is dedicated to the commission, regardless of how it is professed, it will not stop them, regardless of what is done or what has been taking place, this is evident by their number of members they currently have.

They sit at 8.7-8.75 million now compared to last check in 2018

On 12/21/2018 at 10:50 PM, Space Merchant said:

I have posted the statistics before and the current adherents, which sits at 8.45 million (8,457,107) adherents, peaked. This includes 120,053 churches in 240 lands, studies at 10,071,524, with 20,175,477 regarding their communion services.

Prior to the pandemic, there were many, many people looking into the Bible, thus sought after groups thereafter.

That being said, they're far from an elite club. The elites are the ones seeking interfaith, and have done so prior to the pandemic. Thus makes the One World Religion and what they will be doing very soon.

@Pudgy The Dog must be a time traveler, if he has a vest, and an AK-47. Also I've seen this picture before, for it is in the Middle East whereas Thessalonica of Greece; Thermaic Gulf of the Aegean Sea.

That being said, now if Paul found a means of Time Traveler and is laying low not to change anything, that in of itself is a different campfire tale.

If you give into authoritarianism, higher education system , media, government, ruling classes, corrupt oligopoly, etc. Then that raises question.

Even more evident when people give into the MSM. Simple questions can easily deduced said folks, regardless if you are in the US or the EU.

11 minutes ago, Arauna said:

What is wrong with me?  please say honestly.  I will not take offence.....  I unfortunately do not have patience with those who have PROVEN themselves enemies of God.  These are not innocent people who have been misled.  They promote disobedience to God... their sin seems to be equal to that of Adam!

Because of how he can get a reaction out of you, and equates all JWs to be alike. He did not only do this with you, but to others, we the had the one instance with the JW teen, another with Allen, etc. - thus having a broken perception of things.

That being said, I, as do some, deal with such persons constantly, one sided, mainly when they know their err and soon expound on accusations without evidence or merit. Which is pretty much a shame, and downright embarrassing. All in all, it proves the point made many, many times.

10 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I also don’t get into this much because it is not the main issue. If it is something that can get people sick in the long run—well, throw it on the stack. We all get sick in the long run.

The main thing for Witnesses is to focus on announcing the incoming kingdom under which no one will say ‘I am sick.’

I believe they're still doing that, but the pandemic can take it's toll on people, as is with the media and above it, the powers that be. It can get to some people, granted younger folks, due to the fact the higher education system are also a drive in this fear. Mainly for the fact in some instances, as a addressed in the past, 1st amendment can be effected and or the Bible being since as hate speech, with people pressing that idea.

The way I see it, the pandemic is like that of the first level off of a game, for example, Super Mario Bros, easy first world then you get to Bowser, then it gets progressively harder and harder as you progress through the worlds. Likewise, from the start of the pandemic we see how things played out, eventually it will come to a point of difficulty, i.e. no jab, no job at a grander scale. This is also like a precursor for when The End Time Tribulations start, of how we react, and what decisions and actions will be taken.

That being said, A.I. and robotics are coming along, some of which are patrolling people during the pandemic. Possibly more lockdowns, mainly with what is taking place in the EU.

The gospel of what is to come, mainly to those who keep to it, will have that message strengthen them, but still one needs to be careful, as for some, only a small number of folks are immune to the spread of fear and the like via MSM.

As we say in the Truther community for those in power, and all those in the ruling class.

Rules for Thee, but not for me.

500 people, at a birthday party, in a multi-million dollar mansion in a predominantly white neighborhood in Martha's vineyard, with famous people present, in a state where restrictions are at an extreme. Elsewhere the Chicago party was enjoying a rock concert while Chicago is in suffering, as is with threatening New Lockdowns.

Majority of Americans deal with enduring economical hardships that they have never dealt with before.

All communities are effected, from financial, gaming, etc. Everyone is getting hit directly and indirectly by what is taking place, mainly for those in said communities that have families all the while children will eventually read into an artificial history produced by those in power by means of the higher education system.

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

This is why I am careful not to get into squabbles over it. I may post something that seems to me of substance, but if people disagree, I do not get into it. 

Cancel Culture will come for you if that is the case. They've been deleting and deplatforming people since the pandemic, even more since January 6th, to add their own narrative, re-writing history, and soon interjecting it into the higher education system, even going as far as to, wanting to dance at the graves of people who do not agree with them, which is insane. Media and social media deems anyone a threat if you do not align with their narrative of the pandemic, and you can easily get marked for cancellation, which in turn, can ruin your life, even your livelyhood, something of which Vice and the Dailybeast, teamed up with The Young Turks, is attempting with someone right now - to deplatform, cancel, erase history in regards to the individual; for they're doing this because they are disgruntled and using the pandemic and Jan. 6th as a weapon. Eslewhere, Alex Johns, was actually right on something, yet the MSM claim he lied, again this speaks volume.

So you'll have to tread carefully as to why you say, and what you do, even link in some platforms, mainly on social media.

Even the CDC needs to be viewed with skepticism, mainly after what they said:

Yet..... The vaccinated have become Trojan Horses, breakthrough spreaders. Misinformation drives all people into ruin.

That being said, the whole vaccine thing is up to a person's personal choice, no one should be pressed for their medical records, HIPPA comes into question which many ignore, even the media. But the whole fear factor thing is a powerful tool, and no one is immune to it if they get caught up into it, like that of a vortex you have to fight your way out of, as mentioned already to Thinking and in the other thread, JWs are in subjection to this, as with most. AS for the jokesters, and the misguided souls out there, even on this forums, they will get hit by this even harder, especially those in the EU, Germany is a foreshadowing of what is to come on their soil.

2 hours ago, Thinking said:

Sadly it is still not enough for some to understand why many do not take the so called vaccination…I respect those who do….and why…but their is little respect or understanding for those who don’t.

when one truly investigates this….it fills one with absolute terror with what is coming upon mankind….and yet many brothers and sisters are caught unawares at the stage we are at…..for this is not really about a virus..it’s much darker than that.

There are divisions even amongst brothers and sisters now happening..fighting with each other..calling each other stupid and an idiot..not speaking to each other over THIS…..

One comment was made…..if any brother and sister refuse to take this they should be denied all access to any further medical treatment…

some one quick in mind replied….what if they took that stand when we refuse blood transfusions..

Unfortunately…this satanic plan is having success…in turning ..companion against companion….such is the power generated by hysteria and fear…so very sly and cunning is Satan in  How to cause divisions in so called countries claiming democracy.

He does not need such cunning in many other countries….the implications of what lays ahead is so utterly terrifying..that it leaves one dazed..and in great sorrow..as this is just the start.

Yes, even Jehovah's Witnesses aren't immune from what the media is spreading throughout the TV and social media. A lot of young JWs utilize social media. The powers can use anything at their disposal, even a  snippet of fear and division, and pour it out to ALL groups, as is ALL faiths, even those who are irreligious, they were able to do this with even children, which is amplified by the higher education system teaching CRT and a means to cause division among children, teens and young adults, something of which no one found out about until recently. Whenever a government aided power has a crisis on their hands, they can expel more power and authoritarian action among the people. 

There are those who did take a stand, it is liken to your stance on blood transfusion, which, because of the Pandemic, you not accepting a transfusion can no longer be an argument against you. It is also one of those reasons as to why Alt Left and Right media no longer press JWs about blood, moreover, Ambrosia resurfaced and the situation with the black markets went up after what was discovered in China.

Another thing is, while everyone is distracted, various things are taking place in the background, which will eventually lead to more panic buying, people moving out of the cities, etc. If you haven't noticed, Seeds have been bought up and or removed from stores, which raises the question as why seeds are being prohibited from the public in some areas?

That being said, power and fear can cause people to buckle, some, who are so enticed by the MSM as often fall in line and follow what is told to them as if they are an Empire based Stormtrooper under Order 66.

Satan is like a mix of Batman villains. Cunning for if not one scheme gets you, the other one can put you in between a rock and a hard place directly or indirectly. So you have to be really really strong in this type of situation, mainly due to the fact it is going to get much worse, hitting 1984ish-Bob Page levels as we speak.

I see this often quoted by some, which is true with the powers that be.