Space Merchant

@4Jah2me 

However, I would ask people to go back to the VERY TOP of the page, and to look at my very first comment, which started this topic. 

We have gone to the top, and the focus was on both the wording, reasons why Strong’s concordances and translations was brought up. As well as the context, as to, what the verse is conveying, what it is trying to tell us.

SM is making so many claims against me that I have to laugh at him or I would become annoyed. 

You can laugh all you want, but it will not cover the fact you tried to perceive the latter as believing something different, when the view of Non-Trinitarians concerning the King and the heirs are the same for a very long time.

They say debates and discussions of critical mater if a man laughs at this he cannot prove or follow up and or back up what he is conveying, he is in the wrong. I admire your laughing because it just proves the point even more. The Christian I PM’d mentioned Ben Shapiro, to his credit, whenever his facts are solid, the latter cannot refute the facts and will, as I told Srecko, dodge and or tap dance around it.

I care about the truth, and I am sure you do as well, but the fact is associated with the latter faith, despite evidence proving that Non-Trinitarianism share this view equally, you sate it is incorrect and a different view, granted, the evidence says otherwise, even by the faith in question’s own playground, their website.

My first comment was a question as to why the GB / CCJW used over rather than on.

Because in regards The Strong’s Concordance and context, the wording is correct, there is no error or incorrection and or a show of shifting the view into something else. ”Epi” is used correctly granted there was no change to G#1909. That is the reason you see some translations with the wording “upon, above, on, over, etc.” The context never changes, granted the wording.

SM, IT WAS A QUESTION. It was not a statement.

The question has been answered, than the notion of context was given when you pointed out that the view is different from the legitimate view.

Are you non English speaking ?

If I did not speak English you would not be able to see what is conveyed here, don’t be silly.

Do you have to translate every thing I write ?

As everyone here knows, I make a response to a response. Especially when I take the issue of Textual Criticism and Strong’s seriously, equal to that of context of Scripture itself. I told you this a while back and you attest to that point, what did you expect? This is no different than those who tried to shift the narrative of earl church fathers.

Because you seem to have the wrong idea of everything I say.

According to what was said, I do not. You address and see the wording as incorrect, but evidence and sources says otherwise. You address the view of the latter is different, but granted it is known they are Non-Trinitarian, the view is the majority compared to the Trinitarian view. There is only 2 and has been this way for an exceptionally long time. That being said, not too long ago you can see the folly of the KJV-Onlyist and troop elsewhere, their view differs from the Non-Trinitarian view, which is equate to that of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. There is scholarly notes I would gladly quote if need be which further thickens the truth of the matter regarding Revelations 5:10.

For instance, you pretend that I do not know that the Kingdom is in heaven.  Show me then where i have stated that the Kingdom is not in heaven. Give proof of your accusation.

When I made the points, even from the sources, you are saying I am not understanding properly, granted you hinted at the term “over the earth”, after saying this you stated in question regarding the Chosen Ones position to be on earth, to which I had addressed the following below in response, which In turn to that remark is incorrect, thus solidifies your own confusion when the verse conveys context.

You do realize that God's Kingdom is in heaven - right?

God rule will be over the earth from HIS heavenly realm (Revelation 11:15), This is why the Bible calls, in 2 Timothy 4:18, The Heavenly Kingdom.

God's King will rule from God's Kingdom, and is accompanied by the chosen ones. They govern all things on the earth. The key element here is this: not the area, but the authority which they exercise.

You even stated that my claims are incorrect. Granted the context is very clear regarding Revelations 5:10, which points out that those with authority, having been given the role of reigning reside in the heavenly Kingdom, in the heavens. Their rule is over the inhabitants who are on the earth itself. For we know where they are, but verse 10 expresses authority and rulership, and solely that, hence the context.

For if that was the case in your regard, you’d understand the context of Revelations 5:10 way before context and viewpoint was called into question.

@Witness  Offered an explanation of the Bride of Christ being able to 'work' between heaven and earth.

We can see Witness’ comment, but the focus here is the position of the Chosen Ones in the heavenly Kingdom itself, their role. But you and Witness stated the viewpoint is entirely different from the core teaching, but as can be seen, going to the view of Jehovah’s Witnesses, they believe the same thing, in fact, majority of Non-Trinitarianism who predate them by a multitude of years, believe this too. To say the view is different is a bold claim, granted the secondary view correlates with Trinitarianism, for the concept changes when the notion of Jesus being God, changes it entirely.

Now we do know that Jesus was resurrected as a spirit, but he took on human form many times to appear to his disciples. Even showing his hands to Thomas that had doubted. 

What does this have to do with Revelations 5:10? Again, focus on the subject matter. This is elementary Scripture knowledge, JB.

So, this shows the possibility of spirit / human transfer. Angels also have appeared in human form.

Spirits materialized bodies, this can be said of Angels as well. The context of Scripture also expressed the Fallen Ones as well, having harbored the ability to do so until losing God’s presence when deemed Demons. Again, what does this have to do with Revelations 5:10?

Why would the GB / CCJW want to show the Body of Christ as only being in heaven ?

Unfortunately, this is not the teaching of Jehovah’s Witnesses only. The Bible tells us as to the position of the heirs, as is the location. I told you this, but you laughed it off and flat out ignored this, hence the reason I stated you know where God’s heavenly Kingdom is located a second time. As all sources point: the marginal references, even in every translation tells you that the Chosen Ones, who are within the Body of the Christ, will be in heaven with the Christ.

Because they want to promote the human Elders as being Princes here on Earth. By doing so they can give more 'power' to the Elders and ignore the Anointed ones. 

What are you talking about? Stay focused on the Chosen Ones, Christians who make up the inhabitants of the earth is a whole other subject. You started with Revelations 5:9, 10, did you not? Those on the earth cannot have more power than the ones deem a co-ruler, a judge, or a King within God’s Kingdom. That said, take King David being the King of Judah, him being a King does not negate and or equate to the fact that Jesus and or any of the co-rulers being King of God’s Kingdom.

Wicked slave beating their fellow slaves. 

What?

I do hope that people will begin to understand that i often write QUESTIONS.

But in this thread alone you also offered claim after claim after claim. Why else you have not just the people here correcting you, but the sources themselves too? Even Srecko can now see that granted the facts.

Those questions are not statements.

But you brought forth claims, you should have stuck with the questions, and even if not here, Biblehub could have easily answered everything for you, but as stated, you through in claims. Not to mention you attempted to use the modern English understanding to discern something, which is not the best idea for anyone, even an honest Bible reader. Even former JWs who read into Strong’s and Scriptural Context under this.

SM does not seem to be able to understand this fact.

Are you sure? The evidence lays before us, JB.

 As for the later remarks:

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Just to add that what other HUMANS think of me is of little consequence.

These are God fearing Christians, they do not like your exegesis, but at the same time, several of them, in this regarded, prayed for your soul. It is a consequence, for as I had told Witness in the past, several times, a small exegesis that is practically out of context can shift one into believing and or teaching something that is not the core teaching. An example of this is Witness attempted to explain Strong's of a verse, not realizing that she deemed God, your Father, to enlist the help of Satan aka The Destroyer. A second time, she pointed out errors concerning God's Order, as is the notion of Abaddon, as is with New Agism. Small things like that is not only problematic, but, if taught to someone else, they can indirectly believe this as truth. I did not have to do much for her audience showed their responses, to which I quoted in the past.

That being said, it should worry you, is it not right for you to adhere to truth and or speak it? You do not have to be a Jehovah's Witness to realize that, but it would seem the myth is true, that majority of former Jehovah's Witnesses make up the percentage of those in the US/UK in knowing what the Bible teaches, outside of the realm of basics.

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

We can expect to suffer insults and possibly worse, as we are Christians seeking truth from God through Christ.

Christians can be lukewarm, misguided, and speak things that does not line up with Scripture and or fall short of core teachings - at the same time, still claim to be Christian. The truth is, some are under this notion unknowingly, God knows their hearts, therefore deeming everyone guilty is absurd, especially if you call someone Anti-Christian and or Not a Christian, the silly Trinitarian game played by many. Then you have those who do this willfully.

That being said, a Christian understands Scripture and the context it conveys, more so, they do everything to fully know what a verse or a passage is saying, some even going back to the Hebrew or Greek text.

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Jesus was, counted amongst thieves, called a drunkard, called a glutton, and suffered death by torture.

Drunkards, Thieves and Gluttons do not essentially pray for one's soul when they see the mistake. Those 2 quotes, they did mention you, they did not like your response, hence the reason they prayed and or praying for you, as they do with many who took the wrong step.

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Do you not think then that any follower of Christ should expect less ?

What do you think? Also a follower of the Christ does everything in his or her power to see the truth of the matter. Which brings us back to Revelations 5:10 in both wording and context.

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

My Faith keeps me strong and I ask ONLY God's forgiveness through Christ.  I do not fear 'man'.

But the thing is do you have faith in what his word is conveying?

You are a Non-Trinitarian, JB, , so as I am, so is Witness as is with the source she always uses, so is Srecko (although sometimes his vibe is on a different frequency), even Rook is Non-Trinitarian if you can see past his jokes, as is with the Jehovah's Witnesses here such as Anna and Outta Here. We all hold the Non-Trinitarian view, and to Witness' credit, when I said to her I added something to one of my remarks, it was a direction paraphrase of an old discussion we had about The Spiritual House (The only positive moment she mixed verses back then which has been used now to prove the point). That being said, granted ALL OF us hold this view that, Revelations 5:10, regardless of the wording, the context states, to be brief, authority (or rulership) by means of the Jesus and the Chosen Ones. Their rule is over the inhabitants on earth, granted God's Kingdom itself resides in heaven. The marginal references even points to this notion, thus making it as true as the sea being blue, no complexity in that. If you want the other view, you have Jesus.Defender for that, for he is a Trinitarian, as is obvious in his recent response, this goes for his 3 counterparts on the forum, to which I deem Srecko questionable.

That being said, everything I pointed out I do not just speak it, as with majority of my comments, everything has some statistical, source, citation, video, backing. Sometimes I point out minor stuff, without backing information and tend to go about things of a memory, rare times I do make mistake mainly if I have to state something quickly, but at the end of the day, when it comes to factual and credible information, even from the responses of others if need be, it holds true.

Kairos Movement, same old magic tricks. We had this rodeo show before, Jesus Deserter. Anything you say cannot harbor the Trinity as legitimate truth. You, s a Mainstream Christian never learn, and unlike the multitude here, granted their view of Non-Trinitarianism, and or with JWs, even if they make mistake, even on my account if I make a mistake, I, and even they themselves can see your folly.

Refuted within a second.

Interesting this guy is the mirror image of David Wood, who, he himself, cannot hold himself in a debate, especially with Muslims.

EDIT:

This pastor also believes NON-BIBLE CANONS TO BE INSPIRED WRITTEN AND TRUE. This alone further shows us that this pastor is mainstream, just like you. No true Christian would believe in a false narrative of the Christ, or words added by someone else and not from the Apostles and other writers.

Shame on you.

To be brief, this verse does not prove Jesus as God, granted if  one is strongly aware of Jewish Customs and the like. The Scriptural facts show us that such names are given to people and places and these names don't mean that these people are places ARE therefore "God." The Scriptural facts also show us that the Messiah would bear this name because he represents our Eternal Father and Mighty God's wonderful counsel since it was God who made it all happen; He raised up the Messiah to carry out His purposes. This same verse can be connected to in parallel to the King Hezekiah.
 

@JW Insider Yes, and granted the position of the far-left, the far-right is reacting differently. The whole religious concept though, don't know if you are aware of the following below. When I saw this, I was shocked. Even yesterday, out of nowhere, a woman, older than me she looks early-mid 30s, she told me she was sorry, and I asked for what because the whites oppressed black people in the past. I told her she did not have to be sorry about it, for that is the past, we need to focus on the now and the future, regardless of one's race. My curiosity is granted most areas support BLM, how would the reaction be if they found out people such as myself do not support it. I've been in confrontation before because of the Bible, as I told JB before, so it may be similar with not supporting this group.

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

#8e44ad">Amazing idea you display. I am not so religious as you, but your statement showed lack of faith in Bible itself, and in spirit behind the book. Because many Christians would say how Bible words are sufficient for salvation, for understand God, for follow Jesus etc. :))))) You are amazing! So much efforts and energy and tone of words you using to show how few people here are wrong about something and now at the end of this show you said how people cannot rely on the Bible alone regarding analyzing verses.

Lack of Faith? The fact that I agree with the Bible that tells us the authority position of the Chosen Ones? Conveying what is true is from the Scriptures, not ideas of my own, but I'd like to see you prove it, but with every instance I say this, you dodge because there is nothing of you to be deemed as truth, but rather, unfounded.

Many Christians? Not every Christian believes in permanent salvation. Not every Christian believes in once saved always saved. The idea you spout, Srecko, is of mainstream Christendom. The Bible tells us clearly that Salvation can be gained, as is with it being lost. Jude, a slave of Jesus Christ, the brother of James, states that when it comes to maintaining one's faith, one's path of salvation, it is a hard fight. Salvation is not something permanent, more or less, it is like a component to the muscle you work out every day, one's faith.

I told you before, I am strict, and I am a debater I came from that comment and this section of the forum, to me, is still seen as controversial posts as to the notion stated, at the time, you can be tested and or challenged. When it comes to Bible defense, that is where I am at most serious, and even more when I am applying 1 John 4:1, which is the last thing you want used against you, in a discussion.

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

#8e44ad">Your friends in JW Church will be disappointed with you if they notice what you put in comment. Your loving WTJWorg would say how Bible alone explaining itself. You and them are in a disagreement about this issue, and by that you can't support each other in anything at all. ........but.......

Again, you keep throwing Jehovah's Witnesses in there like it is the Ace in your deck. Again, even without Jehovah's Witnesses, even without the Watchtower, what I have pointed out, granted everything I stated HAS A SOURCE CONNECTED TO IT, is correct. More so, even scholarly and commentary notes point to the same conclusion.

The Bible is God's Word, we are to not just read it, we are to understand what God is telling us through his word, so there is no question as to what Revelations 5:10 is conveying here, even Christians elsewhere agree to the same thing, as is, with even some former JWs also pointing this out.

How is there a disagreement of the authority and rulership of the Chosen Ones, along with the Christ, rule over the inhabitants on the earth from God's Heavenly Kingdom? All Non-Trinitarians believe in the same thing. Explain yourself.

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

#8e44ad">On other hand WTJWorg supporting your idea on this with one crucial detail. WTJWorg GB said how reading Bible alone is not enough. They said how people need GB members and their Helpers for giving explanations about meaning of Bible text. In this you and them supporting idea how God's spirit means nothing. Is this blasphemy? :)))

These are not my ideas, as you claim, that statement alone proves your ignorance. The Bible is not wrong either. Willful ignorance on your part, granted you claim the latter as to create their own view, but cannot back up your claim.

Reading isn't enough, you are to study it, to meditate on it, recite, even continue to learn and grow from it. I compare faith to a muscle, the Bible and all things connected to it can be seen as the protein, in this sense. Protein as is with Protein Synthesis enables growth for the average bodybuilder or powerlifter, in this same regard, a Christian builds the muscle, their faith, using the Bible. There is no end to Biblical Knowledge for we do this on the daily.

Granted their leaders are the application of the Faithful Servant notion, their position is in regards to spiritual food and milk to the adherents, is it not? You yourself stated this in the past, even 4Jah2me said this many times, why is it now you go over what you said?

Can you show me as to where I made claim to God's Spirit being nothing? This is a strong case granted I take issue with those who speak otherwise of God's holy spirit.

Because  I have evidence of you in this regard, many, and I can link the threads, cite the quotes, as is with the ridiculous ones you spouted in the past. I invite you to prove that statement - God is my witness in this regard, so let's see it.

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

#8e44ad" data-hashtag="8e44ad" data-hashtag-id="157">#8e44ad">Oh how nice is to see so much religious people who fanatically fights for own versions of faith. I understand need and positive side when someone firmly standing for what he believe is true. But, what we have here or elsewhere  on forums is intellectually/emotionally colored about theories at the end of a day. We all need more to be active in normal helping activity for helping each other, (giving water and bread) and less about this.

No one is fighting for "their version of faith" just as no one is fighting you for "your acceptance of organ changes that befits what God hates the most", granted I am surprised you do not own a Pink Bible yet.

The focus here is Revelations 5:10 in terms of Concordance and the context of the verse in of itself that primarily focuses on the Christ and the heirs. Deviation again on your part, for granted the view of the verse.

Theories? You think this is a theory? Dense as a stone you are for thinking such, I hate conspiracy very much, you know this! What to expect from a man who tried to convince me that inanimate objects can speak....

Well that is the point, I have been helping you, as is with others, Greek Language forms and Strong's in the past, I even told you to look into it, some of you tried, even Witness, but continue to fail at it, to which I then encouraged to learn the basics. But here we are, Mushroom Kingdom World 1-1, from the beginning, and yet again, you express and show the fact that you are incapable of learning.

even if the truth is in front of you, from non-JW sources that state the same thing, even sneaky quotes from scholar notes and commentary, but still, it is not enough. Granted what is stated is 100% true, you do not want to accept it because the JWs believe it too, granted the view in question held predates them even.

7 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

#8e44ad">PS   I#8e44ad"> enjoyed while reading correspondence between you and your friends on another forum. Learned about you through their words. And they answered me on questions you did not want to answer when i asked you :)))))  

What they said was exactly the same thing I said. The first one, she linked her sources, as with sources from the Jehovah's Witnesses, the other pointed out sources from even Former Jehovah's Witnesses, that, in turn, state the same thing I have said, to which I will cite them later.

That being said, looks like I did not need to have Batman level of detective work to expose you, because you just exposed yourself with this statement alone, and it shows you did not see the response in the email that pointed out that the view is identical with the JWs.

Yes, just as I was right, in regards to them, and the following responses, they are right as well. They are randoms whom I had credited in the past, as is with the others. Regardless, we are of the same community of Bible readers. Granted the SE is a large place.

The irony, I take it the latter did not favor you this time because that notion. And of course, you don't like it, but I don't care, another one in the books for "Biblical Facts", this time regarding Strong's (context as well because of the whole notion you and Witness believed in churches and church leadership in Ancient Israel and the like)

You just made my old statement more relevant now

On 11/15/2018 at 4:18 PM, Space Merchant said:

check thyself before you wreckth thyself

9 hours ago, Witness said:

You did it just fine.     It was simple, wasn't it.  We all have access to the JW website, including you.  I honestly don't have the foggiest idea how the doctrine of the trinity got involved, because I don't read all that you carry on about.

Clearly not. I had told you guys to prove it, for if you had gone to the website to quote them, you would have quoted it clearly, which was something I had to do because when asked, you lot could not.

The Trinity was involved because as stated, there is only 2 views regarding this verse, the opposite is dealing with the Trinity. I mentioned them because you stated, as is with the others, that there is the view of JWs differ, but that is not the case, as they pointed out the authority and or rulership of the Chosen Ones who will reign with the Christ from the Heavenly Kingdom. The Trinity Doctrine consist of something vastly different from the Non-Trinitarian view, hence the notion of 2 views, 2 viewpoints.

Well you could have read "prove it" clearly, but you did not want to quote them, nor did you quote Biblehub, Bible Gateway and or the other sources elsewhere, including one I sneak in that cam from an religious critic, to which, you fell for it, thus proving points I made in the past.

9 hours ago, Witness said:

I stated my case using scriptures against WT's doctrine that 144,000 will not step foot on the earth in the Kingdom of God.  We have all stated our case, including you.

 

According to them, the Chosen Ones are to rule over the inhabitants on the earth while in the Heavenly Kingdom. Their position is associated with authority and rulership, as is, with Jesus' Kingship, for as I recall, you watered that down in the past. The context is as clear as day and it is baffling as an alleged Chosen One can even see that tree of truth standing in green plains.

That being said, you basically went brief and moved around the verse.

I have stated my case, from commentary to Strong's to the Bible, even marginal references to which the latter deemed incorrect, for all references point to Revelations 5:10, as is, with the Heavenly Kingdom. For if my points were indeed wrong, it would not stop you lot from pointing it out, granted every point made has a sourceful backing that is focused on the verse in question, not going around it.

An update, in the Truther community I found this, the whole religious aspect of BLM is being talked about now, since prior we talked about the political aspect of BLM, which turned out to be true, granted the history.

The whole chanting thing, as is with the chant "kill all the whites" is a scary notion for the common man. But still, you have the Dems siding with them and paying for them as is with ANTIFA.

Now we have another problem, which is added into the mix, Pride Month. We all know what happens during these events outside of the LGBTQ community. That being said, another fight with the Little Boy and cohorts, the Desmond Crew.

@Witness @4Jah2me @Srecko Sostar 

I may as well put The Trinity Team on the spot. You've all been asked several times to answer claim - To which all of you stated that regarding Revelations 5:10, that the latter's view is outside of the belief of what Christians who do not believe in the Trinity believe. As we can see, thanks to Witness' help, who did not see what I had unknowingly added to the response to her, it further proves my point.

Granted none of you, at all, wanted to even quote the ones you called as lairs, I will do you the favor because it just shows what spirit you really have in this regard, and as I had told you 1 John 4:1 is the last thing you ever want a Christian to use against you in a discussion.

I am marking this one because there are some Christians who really want to know who you guys are, granted I only quoted you to them.

I will quote the Non-Trinitarian commentary again:

On 6/12/2020 at 1:40 PM, Space Merchant said:

• #e74c3c;">As for context:#16a085;"> It is regarding God's accomplishment. The purpose of restoring the earth under Kingship by means of the heavenly Kingdom, that consist of Lord Christ Jesus as the King, accompanied by the chosen ones [priests], whom have authority. As a whole, due to their divinity and connection, they make it possible to bring forth the earth into what God intended it to be, harmoniously aligned with God's original promise, thus fulfilling this purpose of restoration.
• #e74c3c;">More context:#2980b9;"> Verse 10. - And hast made us unto our God kings and priests; and didst make them to be unto our God a kingdom and priests. Of those whom thou didst redeem from every nation, thou didst make a kingdom and priests. Wordsworth remarks that these honours conferred upon the redeemed imply duties as well as privileges. They receive the princely honours conferred upon them only on condition that they also become priests, presenting themselves, their souls and bodies, a living sacrifice to God.

Here is the view of the JWs, of which I had asked you guys several times to address:

Quote

THOSE WHO COME FROM THE EARTH

#ffffff; border:0px; color:#333333; font-size:14.6667px; padding:0px; text-align:start">

“You [Jesus] bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.”— Revelation 5:9, 10.

Just as Jesus was resurrected from earth to life in heaven, others will be too. Jesus said to his faithful apostles: “I am going my way to prepare a place for you. Also, . . . I will come again and will receive you home to myself, so that where I am you also may be.”—John 14:2, 3.

Those who go to heaven go there for a purpose. Along with Jesus, they will make up a Kingdom government that will eventually rule over the inhabitants of all the earth and bring blessings to them. This is the Kingdom that Jesus told his followers to pray for in the model prayer: “Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. Let your Kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also on earth.”—Matthew 6:9, 10.

“As in Heaven, Also Upon Earth”

This salvation with two destinies, heavenly and earthly, is mentioned in a vision seen by the apostle John. He saw kings on heavenly thrones who had been chosen from among Christ’s faithful disciples. The Bible specifically states regarding these associates of Christ that “they are to rule as kings over the earth.” (Revelation 5:9, 10). Note the dual aspect in the accomplishing of God’s purpose—a restored earth under the direction of a heavenly Kingdom made up of Jesus Christ and his joint heirs. All these divine arrangements make possible the final restoration of the earthly Paradise in accord with God’s original purpose.

It is crazy, to me, as to how you guys could not do this simple thing. This view of theirs is not of their own doctrine, no, it is a teaching that people who believe that Jesus is the Son of God, profess, regarding the Kingdom that is to come. As noted to Witness, there is only 2 views, and clearly the actual view has nothing to do with the belief of a Triune God concept, therefore, this view is indeed the correct one.

The claim that the belief has been changed is false, granted the context of this verse is abundantly clear, hence, the reason why you all feared to even quote them or cite them, it was not that difficult.

Next, we have the Literal Greek and the Strong's. The Interlinear Bible.

Quote

#fcfdfd; border:0px solid #000000; color:#40454d; font-size:1.1em; padding:1.3em 0px 0px; text-align:start"> What Is an Interlinear Bible?

#fcfdfd; border:0px solid #000000; color:#0a0a0a; font-size:16px; padding:0px; text-align:start"> Many people think that a faithful translation of the Bible means a word-for-word translation. If the verse in Hebrew contains ten words, then ten English words should be used to translate the verse. If the Greek text contains eight words, then only eight English words are necessary to translate it. To be a faithful translation of the original text, each Hebrew and Greek word should have a corresponding English word. Yet this is not the way translation works.

#fcfdfd; border:0px solid #000000; color:#0a0a0a; font-size:16px; padding:0px; text-align:start"> The idea of corresponding English word, or words, which matches with the original text of Scripture, is not found in translations, but rather in interlinear Bibles. We must appreciate the fact that an interlinear Bible is different from a translation.

#fcfdfd; border:0px solid #000000; color:#40454d; font-size:16px; padding:1.3em 0px 0px; text-align:start"> This Is Not a Translation

#fcfdfd; border:0px solid #000000; color:#0a0a0a; font-size:16px; padding:0px; text-align:start"> An interlinear Bible is not a translation. It is a tool that helps identify Greek and Hebrew words with their English translation. For example, in an interlinear of #39547f; padding:0px" rel="external nofollow">Matthew 1:18, the English words under the Greek words would look something like this:

#eaeff2; border-radius:6px; border:1px solid #c5d2e0; color:#0a0a0a; font-size:0.9em; padding:1em 1.6em; text-align:start"> of moreover Jesus Christ the birth in this manner was after having been engaged the mother of him Mary to Joseph before to come together they she was found with a stomach having from spirit holy

#fcfdfd; border:0px solid #000000; color:#0a0a0a; font-size:16px; padding:0px; text-align:start"> This example makes a couple of things obvious. First, it is not possible to translate Greek words with only one English word. Certain Greek words need a number of different English words to convey their meaning. In addition, some words do not translate by themselves. Second, it is not possible to keep the same word order in English as in the original. To do so would make no sense whatsoever. This example illustrates this fact. While there are places in Scripture where the word order is similar to English, this verse is more the rule than the exception. It shows why translations cannot usually reproduce the word order of the original—it will not make sense in English.

#fcfdfd; border:0px solid #000000; color:#40454d; font-size:16px; padding:1.3em 0px 0px; text-align:start"> The Value of an Interlinear

#fcfdfd; border:0px solid #000000; color:#0a0a0a; font-size:16px; padding:0px; text-align:start"> An interlinear can be useful to find which particular Greek or Hebrew word that is used for the English translation. Beyond this, they are not really much help. In fact, they can be misleading to someone who does not understand the grammar of the original languages. The best thing a student can do is to learn the biblical languages. If this is not possible, then owning an interlinear will only be of limited use.

#fcfdfd; border:0px solid #000000; color:#0a0a0a; font-size:16px; padding:0px; text-align:start"> Summary - Question 6
What Is an Interlinear Bible?

#fcfdfd; border:0px solid #000000; color:#0a0a0a; font-size:16px; padding:0px; text-align:start"> An interlinear Bible is not really a translation. It lists the Hebrew or Greek word in one line and below the Hebrew or Greek word is the corresponding English word, or words, that translate the meaning of the original word. An interlinear will make two things absolutely clear. First, it is not possible to have one English word correspond to one Hebrew or Greek word—it just will not work.

#fcfdfd; border:0px solid #000000; color:#0a0a0a; font-size:16px; padding:0px; text-align:start"> In addition, the order of the words in the original cannot be kept in the English translation. If one attempts to do this, it will not result in good English. Neither will it convey the message of the biblical writer. A translation needs to be able to use one or more English words to translate the corresponding Greek or Hebrew word. Furthermore, the order of the words usually has to be changed in the English translation to make sense out of the passage. Therefore, the interlinear only has limited value.

Therefore, with knowing this information, a true and honest Bible reader will not spout the silly ignorance you guys are spouting right now. Learn what an Interlinear Bible is all about, as I told all 3 of you in the past, learn your Strong's, and as embarrassing as it is to say this to you - learn what the context of a Bible verse or passage means, I say this because this is not the first nonsense yous guys did, one with nakedness, the other believing God sends evildoers, the other conveying things that often does not make sense, but changes subject. Christians such as yourself can easily misguide and confuse others, as examples of this elsewhere had already been addressed. That said, it proves the point that you cannot rely on the Bible alone regarding analyzing verses, never have you done so, never will you do so, and I've yet to see any thread that correlates to that, for two of you attempt, thinking that Judge and Prophetess Deborah ran a church.

This is what I have so far out of the 8 I messaged, once I get the final responses from the colorful ones, I will address it here.

Quote

 

There is another forum I am in and the discussion is in regards a specific word in the Greek Language. It is "epi". The issue here is there are a selected few who views are not that well equipped to understand the whole Literal to Modern English concept, for they had issue with the words such as "upon, over, on, etc." anything pertaining to GS1909. What do you think? Also I PM'd using your email you that quote from one of these people.

• Quote [1] "Hello, I really don't see what the whole fuss is about. It's very obvious what the word means. Normal readers who are not too good with reading the bible, if that is the case, will see it as they read it, but, us as bible readers, we can see the word in question is used properly. So, Revelation 5 verse 10 is alright. If it is an interlinear to the modern language, the wording will be a little different to make it readable and easily digestible to the honest reader."on the earth", "over the earth", "upon the earth", "above the earth", we know what the verse means so any translations that looks like this does not change the viewpoint of what I am about to say next. God's Kingdom is above us after all, and the Messiah and his ruling buddies are reigning upon the earth [from God's Kingdom], well, soon of course :p. The verse is also telling us that this is about ruler-ship, for the heirs of the Kingdom will co-rule as little kings and judges upon those who are living on the earth, make sense right? Of course. But may God have mercy on that poor soul. For the ignorant do not know any better, but if this person is doing this and knows what their doing, that is a very sad and misguided human being. I do love questions, anything else or is this a one time visit, TRH?"

"I'm always here, just not as active as I use to be, but I am as I am when it comes to just the section about Scripture. I just send emails regarding questions and the like. Not the discord though, but I was invited to one to explain Titus 2:13, for an angry Christian thought I was wrong about it, I'll use Kel as a source."

• "Feel free to come back anytime, it is not as lively as it use to be here, we just talk about shows and lifestyle. Save those souls, for the Christ. They need to be rescued."

 

What do you think about the Jehovah's Witnesses' view of Revelation 5:10? Also seen any threads on Strong's references to the word "epi"? You think the wording changes what the verse conveys?

• Quote [2] "Well you can't really ask them since COVID-19 happened = no preaching the good news in public lol (unless they protection from the virus) lol, but thanks for the email, that is a good question, I will respond since you gave me rep. Although I agree with and disagree with things about Jehovah's Witnesses, that verse fits the view of a whole lot of us - Jesus is the King of the Kingdom, just as David was King. Jehovah is the Father and the God of Israel, no questions regarding that, well, unless you believe in the Trinity Doctrine. He has his Only-Begotten Son, Jesus, and we know Jehovah made Jesus Lord, and he made him Christ, can't remember the verse, I am running on fat free milk here, pandemic weight loss program lol. Their view is simple and you can see it on their website jw.org too, I'd link it, but my email might get marked as spam, so just look for the verse there and find what they believe, it is similar to the ones on the Bible websites. So from what I am reading, is they believe that the 144,000 faithful servants will rule with the Lamb of God over the earth, some translations reign will sometimes show as they reign, and over can sometimes be seen as on, upon, whatever, but what the verse is telling us is clear, The Jdubs even made note of this without even talking about strongs, it is on their website. I do not believe the wording changes what the Bible is telling us, unless, you have been too busy in the Devil's world to realize it 😛. So the Jehovah's Witnesses holds the view that I have, and I am sure you as well because we all know there are some out there who hate it, but they are right tho."

"Check this out, this person, is from another forum I am now part of, no longer go by the name TRH and the like. This is what he said - From the Greek it reads ..... and they are reigning upon the earth.... But in the NWT it reads  ........ and they are to rule as kings over the earth. He is reading from the Bible translations produced by JWs, the interlinear and the New World Translation Bible, what do you think?"

• "Sorry for the late reply, errands. COVID-19 may be holding other brothas and sistas down, but not me tho, NOT THIS GUY lol, I got a family to feed :D. So the is issue is the wording, yes?"

"Yes. This person fully well believes that the wording in the verse, as I mentioned to you, changes everything, he even deems the Non-Trinitarian view as false."

• "Does this guy (or gal) understand what the verse is saying? The wording is not such a big issue, that interlinear that JWs have is literal greek to english, the NWT is a modern english Bible. The wording is good, double checked the strongs website, so I don't see the problem. But even tho, the verse is clear. I don't want to be mean, but if he or she really is acting up because of that, that is straight up stupidness. I understand JW hate like they REALLY hate them, but not everyone does, only like 3% of old members harbor that hate. The knock on the door around 7am tho omg lol, but still, they believe what the Bible is talking to them about. Other than that, hood, you must get a lot of fun out of things you should debate Ben Shapiro lol, but even if you are right, the other person will always cover their ears and say you are wrong, but in their heads, they'll say omg he's right lol! Anything else?"

"No, that is all I need to hear. I may msg you for chat again because I have another response from someone regarding the holy spirit, holy ghost as he puts it because he claims if we speak truth, we are demons without the spirit. This guy has lost his marbles."

• "If that was brought up in a debate, just speak the truth. Speaking the truth is what got Jesus and his friends into trouble, right? That's okay, because the truth about something or someone is always 100% right."

 

I am just making note as I go, so such ones can give answer. You really can't blame them either because speak the same thing. I'll probably make this none elsewhere just to further close this case. This time on the CSE and HSE, where the Biblical sane and knowledge tend to be, as I use to be.

4 hours ago, Witness said:

I have brought out scripture after scripture.  If that is not enough to prove the point, then you are blind.

I am not talking about Scripture, I am talking about the context of said Scripture that points to the view. 

You said it yourself, they are at fault in this regard, if that is the case, why not state their view vs. the actual view? This in of itself is deemed impossible regardless due to the fact the latter do not believe Jesus is God.

Therefore, #e74c3c;">ALL Non-Trinitarians believe this regarding Revelations 5:10 - That Jesus is King, and his heirs, the chosen ones, will be with him in God's heavenly Kingdom.

In this thread alone, we see that you agreed with the others to say that their view is incorrect, you even stated that it is to fit their doctrine concerning Revelations 5:10, but the reality is, they hold this view concerning this verse, therefore, they are not going outside of the legit context of this verse as you had claimed. I find it that this is the reason the lot of you did not want to point this out and only purposely do this because it is the fact they are JWs; and unknown to you I had paraphrased something without you noticing from Scripture that you and I both agreed with in the past concerning the chosen ones (I did this on purpose), thus, proves said context is true regarding Revelations 5:10, and the fact your previous responses on this point shows the hypocrisy.

I'd also like to point out that your exegesis on G#1909 is a weak one, because we see here you are using your own thinking, therefore, no teaching as been blown into pieces, be it if any of the 1909s is used (on, over, above, upon). But what to expect from someone who attempt to add their own thinking into the verse to deem God an evildoer at one point, for that time, context and Strong's was used to correct you.

That being said, they are indeed in the right concerning this verse, therefore, you and the others can be deemed as lairs because you said their view point is outside of what Christians believe. The problem here is because they believe it, as with 100% all Non-Trinitarians, including you.

#e74c3c;">The other view is vastly different. Those that believe that Jesus is God tend to believe of the chosen ones, but most do not believe in a specific number. They state that Jesus is both Alpha and Omega, as is, him being, to quote most of them, "Lord God Almighty". We know that Jesus hands back the Kingdom to God, but the latter things otherwise, that this Kingdom is for him and by him. We can clearly see this contextual view of Revelations 5:10 is wrong. No Non-Trinitarian Christian would think of this view, let alone get this message from Revelations 5:10. So yes, according to you, it is man made, and yes according to you, this is a different doctrine in this degree, and regarding JWs and Restorationists, as with every single Non-Trinitarian out there, they do not believe this view, just as both you and I.

8 minutes ago, Witness said:

I am not interested in the doctrine of men.  I am interested in the scriptural harmony of truth. 

We are talking about Scripture. There are 2 views, #e74c3c;">one of Scripture and solely that, the other, uses Scripture based on Creeds.

I feel as though the fact me mentioning this down is the reason why the latters are quite.

So I ask you to prove the claim of yours. You said their viewpoint differs to fit their doctrine granted the verse in question. Can you show if it is in the wrong or in the correct.

You, Witness, are a Non-Trinitarian, which is evident, clearly you understand what is conveyed here, therefore, it should not be this difficult to focus on the context of this verse, which can be narrowed down to a single sentence.

You should be interested because Christians are preachers, they preach the gospel, the truth, are they not after all? Matthew 9:35; 24:14, 28:19-20 Mark 13:10, 1 Corinthians 9:16, Colossians 1:23, 1 Peter 1:12 and Revelations 14:6?

Teachings that are far beyond of what is taught, we teach truth do we not (Galatians 1:1-11)?

That being said,

Regarding the verse, one should not be this withholding of themselves of elementary context.

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

I am now wondering if Outta Here and SM are one and the same person .

You think Outta Here and I are the same because we whole the Non-Trinirarian view of what the verse tells us, Butler?

That is the most absurd way of trying to get yourself out of the position of answering the very thing you claim as true. Question Dodging, as addressed to Srecko, will not work, granted 1 John 4:1 is still ongoing. Best know whenever a Christian uses 1 John 4:1 in discussion, there is a very legitimate and strong reason as to WHY it is being used.

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

They have the same way of talking rubbish. 

Rubbish, you sound like JB more because every time it comes to Scripture context and Strong's, JB said the same thing all the time.

That being said, if it is rubbish, as you claim, prove it. I asked you many, many times, and every single time you evade and dodge.

If you are going to make a claim, but not back yourself up and switch to silly appeal to motive, dodging and Jester in the King's court type of tactics, one can already see you are incorrect and in the wrong.

What you stated, elsewhere, Christians deemed you a lair, so clearly they know the verse in question more.

There is only #e74c3c;">2 viewpoints of belief on this verse, clearly the latter does not believe that God and Jesus are the same person, let alone the Holy Spirit being a person, so you have a pool to fill if you can prove they are Triune believers.

What I find rubbish however, out of this discussion, you did not even know what God's heavenly Kingdom met, as is with location.... That is indeed rubbish, and you made the claim, not me, or anyone here, for Srecko and Witness' sake, but they would not point this out.

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

I am now sat ON my chair. I am not sat over my chair. To be ON something means touching it or resting on it.  To be over something means to be above it.  

You can be this serious with your logic? With the Bible? The Modern English Language to interpret the wording of the verse?

Thank you for saying this because there is more out there that will have quite the laughs and giggles, as is with refutes with your response. Once I get more messages, I will quote them here just to show you how horrendous they see your claims and responses are.

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Move on ..........................

#27ae60;">You haven't proven your #e74c3c;">claim #27ae60;">yet, the spotlight is on you.

#27ae60;">Remember, no #e74c3c;">question dodging#27ae60;">, in your case, you have to #e74c3c;">answer your own claims.

21 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

#e74c3c;">Evading/Evasion (Question dodging) in ethics

#2980b9;">Question dodging is a rhetorical technique involving the intentional avoidance of answering a question. This may occur when the person questioned either does not know the answer and wants to avoid embarrassment, or when the person is being interrogated or questioned in debate, and wants to avoid giving a direct response.

If you do not know what 1 John 4:1 says, I will cite it for you:

#c0392b;">Test the Spirits

#2980b9;">Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

13 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

WTJWorg GB know. :))

The irony here is the Bible tells us, as with all other sources, for there is but 1 view for God's Kingdom. You can't be this Biblically dense, Srecko....

On 6/12/2020 at 1:40 PM, Space Merchant said:

You do realize that God's Kingdom is in heaven - right?

God rule will be over the earth from HIS heavenly realm (Revelation 11:15), This is why the Bible calls, in 2 Timothy 4:18, The Heavenly Kingdom.

God's King will rule from God's Kingdom, and is accompanied by the chosen ones. They govern all things on the earth. The key element here is this: not the area, but the authority which they exercise.

Amazing how the latter few agreed with you when the context says otherwise regarding God's Heavenly Kingdom. Even the JWs know that, as is with the majority. How on God's green earth you did not know this as is with 4Jah2me, who did not know this either?

13 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

They said they are living in Spiritual Paradise now and here. According to this claim people could conclude how Kingdom is on Earth, because Jesus as King is coming in 1914 to visit the Earth. Obviously he stay and spread his Kingdom around the globe with a little help and by means of WT Society.

Perhaps GB source for this knowledge is also in Bible hub? 

Also you said how WTJWorg speak the truth. Well we have Two Witnesses for same claim: You and WTJWorg GB.

You keep running to hold the hands of JWs again, 1914 can be talked about, I am talking about God's Kingdom and the Chosen Ones. Why again are you deviating?

If you claim that they are wrong about Revelations 5:10, and when asked to show us this claim, you could not, and now you go to another suibject the whole 1914 thing? Remember we are focused here, after all, you said one time you are always focused.

This just shows you have unfounded claims, just pulling things out of thin air, hoping it would stick and admire the audience. There are been some very poor comments about you and 4Jah2me on this subject matter elsewhere, I'd gladly quote them if need; granted the reactions from these Christians, they themsevles point out to the fact that the Non-Trinitarian view of Revelations 5:10 is absolutely correct.

That being said,

Address the questions that you been asked to answer. If you can even do that, with 1 John 4:1 being applied here, I can freely deem you a lair, and most importantly, Scripturally blind.

@Witness And yet Biblehub correlates with the same thing, as is with EVERY KNOWN SOURCE, even Blueletter. The other problem is you pointed out to fit their belief, show us what you are conveying.

I ask you, 4Jah2me and Srecko to point out as to how their view of Revelations 5:10 differs from nearly 100% of Non-Trinitarians. It is quite simple because even you stated they are incorrect, so according to the view of the common Non-Trinitarian, how are the Jehovah's Witnesses, who are not even Trinitarians, differ when within Christianity itself there are only 2 views, 2 beliefs, 2 viewpoints regarding this same verse?

You told me 2 times before, you are among the Chosen Ones, yet Kosenen and I thought otherwise, and even those out there who were confused at the information you post from that website you tend to use. So it is quite baffling as to how you yourself do not fully know well of what this specific verse means concerning people like you, that is, if you are indeed one because now the brow has been raised.

As a side note, I have mentioned several times the one I admire, Solider of God, a Chosen One among those who is to serve with the Christ, knew fully well what Revelations is all about, when he became Christian, he started from Revelations because, although he is not the best speaker, let alone not too great to put things together to explain, he himself, when he was alive, knew what Revelations was about, even all of chapter 5, to him, it was no more as a puzzle, when put together shows spiritual context of the matter. If he were still alive right now, he'd be saying the same thing I am saying to you right now.

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

I seriously try not to get involved in 'worldly affairs'.  Protests are just tools of the devil. Not long ago we had Extinction Rebellion. Now we have Black Lives Matter.  The protesters are looking to 'men' for answers and those that obey the governments of the world are also looking to 'men' for answers. But we know better. We look to God through Christ for the answers. The prayer that Jesus gave as an example, says it all. 

Yes, but you should be vigilant, for that is what the Bible tells us to apply, as is with discerning, and aware. You seem to be confused on the narrative of BLM and or anyone on the Left (Far-Left). BLM are Reformed. The Reformed wants liberty, they want equality (egalitarianism), progress, and lastly, they are internationalist, therefore, they demand more government, and the latter is primarily Democrat, likewise to you in the UK, that mentality is the same, granted, in the EU, The United Kingdom is a superior ally to the United States. They seek social justice through distributive social and economical polices, reasons why sometimes people refer to them as Social Justice Warriors (SJWs).

That is a misconception, they do listen to ALL the "men and women" even the statist (Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez), they are the Far-Left, so to assume otherwise, you can easily be branded as a Sexist by them, if we are talking about race, and to anyone who is White/Caucasian, they can be branded as a Nazi, whereas in this case, if met with ANTIFA the one they branded will quickly be surrounded by young people and college students fully adorn in black attire and ready to, "beat-down" the one they've branded. As for those called Sexist, the victim must be ready to have his or her life ruin. That is the game the Far-Left plays. Lastly, they list primarily to Democrats, who are partnered with the Government, in turn, the United Nations (for the UN has hands in a multitude of political and religious superpowers).

Of course, the only side we must be on is on God's side, and of his Christ, all the more reasons why to remain neutral in the affairs of the world. However, that does not mean we should give up on being vigilant, for as Christians, as told in Scripture, we are the types to be watchful for all things even though we do not partake in them, this also connects to the fact that we are Preachers, despite these things, we preach to the people.

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

My son has just informed me of more protests in London from BLM and it's opposition.

There will always be more. There was a Truther out there who had nearly beaten to death when recording the events. The protesting will not stop anytime soon because as I mentioned to JWInsider and Matthew, the MSM is constantly throwing racism into the mix, moreover, the mob mentality has increased, so you can easily be in danger directly and or indirectly.

London you say? That reminds me of something.

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

He also told me about the trouble in Seattle........ 

This is recent. I am awaiting to see what honorable Anderson has to say about this. Anderson was a police officer, who was kicked out of the force for speaking the truth. Granted he is a Good Cop (former), BLM and the Left deem him an enemy, for they believe for the sake of one evil soul, all other good souls are guilty, which is a absurd way of thinking and application.

3 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Then I read somewhere about China sending troops into India, but I don't deeply investigate these things as i just see it as the continuing story of the Devil's way of pulling people away from God....  

People are unaware of China's movements, which is obvious, but best be careful of what the MSM is telling you, this goes for what you see and hear on Social Media, for even on those platforms, people lie and through misconception.

The majority are irreligious. They have twisted the actions of Jesus and his words and of his God to the SJW narrative, BLM and others on the Far-Left has been doing this.

4 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Quote SM " #fffefa; color:#353c41; font-size:14px; text-align:start">I ask these things because most people who speak on CSA just shout it, but yield no sort of solution whatsoever#fffefa; color:#353c41; font-size:14px; text-align:start">, "

As for CSA, I do not try to look for answers in the 'world', and I do not get involved in trying to find solutions for the Devil's system of things. My concern with CSA is only in the CCJW. That religion is quite different to most because each congregation acts like a 'family unit'. Because of that people spend more time together in the Kingdom Halls, on the ministry, in congregants private homes and at social gatherings.. It can give a false sense of friendship and trust. This has been proven by the amount of CSA in the CCJW Earth wide. 

I'm asking you though. You are very adamant of Child Sex Abuse, are you not? I am not talking about JWs, I am not talking about anything else but BLM. WE already know Child Sex Abuse, as well as violence against them is all over the place, as of recent, even in planes they are not safe. For I asked you this question because what is being pushed into the children, for example, is to hate another child who is white - that is one of many, many examples.

So I ask you, #2980b9">since you are a parent, to make it easier for you, what is best needed to negate this kind of application of today's world, especially from BLM from entering into the mind of the child? What is the most important thing that defends a child from these things, mind you even the Bible mentions this.

Granted, to JWInsider's credit, you mention CSA everywhere, this question I pose to you is an honorable contribution to the cause, for I have been fighting child sex and violence abuse, a lot of children look up to me because of what I passed on to them, hence the question posed I've integrated BLM.

13 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

SM is actually worse than TTH for writing books. I just could not be bothered to read it all. I glanced over bits. There is nothing spiritual there to be learnt.

All my sources are both fact and true.

Nothing to be learnt? You do realize what Conveying Scripture is, if it were not for my conveying of the verse, you would not know what God's Kingdom location is, for I pointed this out.

13 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

I did notice SM accuse me of something to do with picking quotes from Biblehub to suit myself.

After the ESV you skipped over, there is an order to which Biblehub cites all translations. Therefore, you have suited yourself granted the other ones that does not correlate with what you stated previous are mentioned there. Regardless, that is what 1909 is, those words, nothing you can do can change this notion for this is true to all who are learning the literal Greek.

13 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

But in fact i had picked the two different examples 'on' and 'above'.

The later statement you picked 5, I quoted you. I merely put all 23.

If you wanted to focus on the first two, then you would not have a need to cite the others.

13 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

SM I cannot be bothered with your domineering attitude.

Because you do not know anything about the Bible context as is with the wording itself from literal to English? It is right in front of you.

13 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

YOU think YOU are right.

Because I am, as is with my sources.

God has a Kingdom, he has a King, the King has subjects who will rule with him from the heavenly Kingdom, to those who inhabit the earth. Tell me how is this wrong?

13 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

That's good enough for YOU. 

Granted everything even the context is right?

13 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

As for me I know that i don't need to rely on your opinions. 

These are not my opinions, this is primarily Bibical Hermeneutics. And it takes literally 5 minutes of hermeneutics to realize the context of this verse alone, but for you, it must need to take the discovery of the Lost City of Atlantis to find out the meaning of a somewhat short verse.

Also

• An opinion is a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
• Bible hermeneutics is the branch of knowledge that deals with interpretation, especially of the Bible or literary texts.

I consider the context of the verse as - both FACT and TRUE

That being said, as you claimed this, to which Srecko sided with you.

If I am in the wrong, all you need to do is prove it. You said that their viewpoint fits their doctrine and or beleif, that is the point and claim you made.

If this is true, what is stopping you from pointing out how their viewpoint is wrong vs the truth of what the verse is telling us?

The truth of the matter is JWs, as with all Restorationist and Non-Trinitarians believe and apply the same context of Revelations 5:10. The doctrine only changes if the individual is a Trinitarian.

The simple change to bleieving that Jesus is God spins Revelations 5:10 into something else.

I like this statement of yours

13 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

I know that i don't need to rely on your opinions. 

The spotlight is on you, Butler.

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

SM expects me to accept all his folly.

No lie was ever stated and or deception. Why did that example of Butler suddenly interest you?

Also, not a folly:

On 7/8/2019 at 7:22 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

Quote @Space Merchant  " Race wise, abuse is primarily done by Caucasian/white males and it is always the father figure, if not the father, the uncle. " 

A bit of a racist comment i think SM. 

On 7/8/2019 at 8:44 PM, Space Merchant said:

Stating something straight from either statistics and or the FBI, as well as Child Abuse and Neglect Prevention sources, does not make one racist (granted you are ignorant of the term).

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

That is why i have said he is trying to be superior.

John Butler said the same thing about me several times, to which I stated I am not superior, as is with his remark to religious studies, he allued to the same thing on the Islam thread too. Other times tells people that I consider myself inferior because of my background culture and race, but I told him otherwise.

That being said, no one is superior, for Christians are humble and meek folk, be it knowledgeable or not.

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

He seems to think he is 'correcting' me.   I do find him amusing. 

Because you, time and time again apply man's understanding, for if anyone on here knows, trying to interject that and go beyond what the Bible conveys, I make a response to a response. Glad to hear it because it amusing me too when facts is absolute over a man's feelings in terms of the Bible.

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

The point is, if a person speaks truth about CSA or anything else then it matters not who that person is. What matters is what they have said...... I am finding, and I expected it of course as it's a JW ploy, that JWs when they know something is true, will try to discredit the writer...  Seems to have happened concerning 'My Beloved Religion ...' 

However JWI seems to like a diversion from topic so maybe he has liked this fiasco. 

No one here is knocking child abuse, we know what it is and we know of how damaging it is, some of us, including me, propose solutions to minimize this threat,a s is with violence. But there is always a time and a place to discuss that, not unexpectedly in, for instance, a thread about the New Covenant, or about Jesus reading the scroll of Isaiah only to be hit with CSA left and right.

Simply start a thread on the matter, it is simply a click away.

That being said, you once mocked Truthers.... You should know what Truthers have been doing concerning child abuse, let that sink in.

That being said, concerning BLM, granted that is the subject matter, let's involve child abuse into the mix, do you think it is child abuse to teach children that one of another race is deemed an enemy? Moreover, should BLM succeeded in their narrative, how can you better help children that would be at an increased risk of sex and violence abuse (for if there is no one to stop the crimes, what do you think will happen if they demand no police and or those of law)? What solutions do you propose to help children in this current time? Most importantly, what is deem the strongest defense that shields children from abusers?

I ask these things because most people who speak on CSA just shout it, but yield no sort of solution whatsoever, this is obvious because such ones bash others for it who are not equipped properly to deal with it, when the solutions are there. Child Abuse services tells us as a WHOLE to teach the child, something to which I mentioned to Butler from the website itself to which he disagreed with, to which srecko laughed at. These things we must apply for the betterment of the ones who take up the baton after us.

But even with that said, everything I state is a folly, in your eyes, but what I say is both true and fact. I have been fighting child abuse since, as is with other things, you can do the same if you choose to.

Clearly there are those who do want change and hate racism, but to go into the extreme to, while effect the children, so much as so, you have the influence of BLM in children shows and cartoons now.

The mob mentality will be the end of educating the child; there are those, whom I know, who want to have children, but would never want to bring a child into today's world. That is how bad it is.

There are more reasons as to why I deem the Leftist movement as a threat, this is merely the surface.

14 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I am not evading beer, you misunderstand something :)) 

You were asked several times to state the claims of which you acknowledged and stated yourself.

• Evade [Verb] - escape or avoid, especially by cleverness or trickery.; avoid giving a direct answer to (a question).

Also you were sure of yourself when you said I am a debater, to which I am. You even quoted methods of debate and as to how we see things, here is one for you to add to your list:

• Evading/Evasion (Question dodging) in ethics - Question dodging is a rhetorical technique involving the intentional avoidance of answering a question. This may occur when the person questioned either does not know the answer and wants to avoid embarrassment, or when the person is being interrogated or questioned in debate, and wants to avoid giving a direct response.

You can always come back to attest to your agreements and claims, instead of misfire statements and remarks, next time provide what is being asked of you.

Go have your beer, answer when ready.

Or, it can be made easier for you.

Regarding context, point out how they or what is wrong with how they see the context of the vs. version what the true context actually is, by your word. This I'd like to see.

9 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I will go for a beer :))  Also, suggest you to buy one for yourself too.

Evading? Understandable, better than deviating. You can go for your drink, therefore you can login to still answer the question posed to you granted you agreed and backed the claim of "Different viewpoint" as is "Different Doctrine". when the context speaks for itself, as with the Strong's.

That being said, I do not drink, never have, never will. As for I have reasons for such.

The question will be waiting for you when you get back, so I will quote it again granted you see what you agreed with, and to what you must answer to the claim you side with:

45 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Please cite your sources if you deem your claim for Revelations 5:10 to be true in terms of them being wrong.

45 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

cite Biblehub and cite the JWs, show us as to where the difference is

15 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

show us where the difference is regarding the context of Revelations 5:10

20 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

 

You don't need me to cite any of my sources, because i believe how Outta Here is JW member. And he has his "version" about your asking. In another word that is how he understand official doctrine :))

What @Outta Here  stated is identical to what I said, which is quite obvious on this thread alone, I quoted myself several times too. lol 🤣you can't be this serious. Are you? So now you backed yourself into a corner, what will you do now in this regard?

Restorationist are not Trinitarians by the way, so clearly Outta Here does not believe Jesus to be God, therefore, the actual view of the common Anti-Trinitarian are 100% the same vs the latter, so now you just exposed yourself some more.

Again, instead of tap dancing on ice and glitter, cite your sources,

show us where the difference is regarding the context of Revelations 5:10

Also you are well en route to the realm of contradiction, I can already see that.

I mean, you DID agree with 4Jah2me when he quoted some information from Biblehub, but you, and the others, why this terrified of commentary?

5 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

This testimony of yours defeats completely @Space Merchant "version" of his view on WTJWorg. :))

To correct you, my commentary sources were ALL pulled from Biblehub, Biblegateway and the Bible Study website; identical to Outta Here's responses.  Therefore you created your own lie granted my responses. Therefore, no defeat here. Very obvious in my responses from yesterday.

Thank you very much.

That being said, prove it wrong, cite Biblehub and cite the JWs, show us as to where the difference is, which will be unfounded because the latter is not Trinitarian.

22 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

@Space Merchant if you are not able or not willing to concentrate, canalized your thoughts in  few words and few sentences than i have no need nor motivation to have conversation with You!  

I am focused on the topic, but you are deviating. You were told to cite regarding Revelations 5:10, but you did not. Bringing up your errors relating to Understanding a Bible verse fits The Fable that is Srecko "of birds" Sostar.

You say this yet the question was presented to the subject matter, you are and wanting to deviate because you have no evidence.

22 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

You speaking about my "deviation" but you done nothing to change Your attitude toward people who don't accept your "faith" and stand for your "the truth" and your Bible hub or what ever. 

This is a subject of Bible understanding of the verse in question, NOT about faith. Thank you for trying to commit to deviation again.

Nowhere have I stated accepting faith, for my focus was the context and Strong's of the Bible verse in question.

22 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

You are so ready to fight for "the truth", for your view on truth, for your version of truth here and now.

My version? The Bible speaks of Jesus as King of God's Kingdom and he has those ruling with him over the earth from the heavenly Kingdom. Tell me Srecko Sostar, how does this constitutes to speaking of Faith vs. speaking of what the Bible says?

22 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Also here and now is right place and time to express not only your praise how WTJWorg teaching is wonderful, your "version" of their doctrines (and your version of own Faith, Organization, Church that you belong too), but to give Critical observation and speak against all, even minor detail that is not good and correct according to your inner sensitivity and intellectual    objectivity, about/in both Institutions. 

This no praise of anything. It is about the context and the Strong's of Revelations 5:10.

Oh, the Deviation is strong with you, proving my point again and again. Amuse me some more.

22 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

If you said how there is not nothing wrong in your Church and in WTJWorg OR just skip to speak up about it, to stay deaf and dumb, as you done every time when somebody ask you this same thing, you will show your true face....once again.

Where have I said this? Last I recall, my focus was on the viewpoint of Revelations 5:10, whereas the context is no different from others, expect if the person believes that Jesus is God, THAT IS WHERE the difference is.

How so, here we see either you are not making sense, or the birds of yours did not take care of your bandwidth which results in you jumbling about.

22 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Have a good day :))

Please cite your sources if you deem your claim for Revelations 5:10 to be true in terms of them being wrong.

7 minutes ago, Matthew9969 said:

CNN is about reliable as a 2 year old teaching rocket science.

CNN - The Corrupt News Network. You know, CNN are, like the Dems, defend and has bailed out members of ANTIFA, and granted ANTIFA is the far left, CNN and all those connected are among the far left, just like BLM. As of now they are still enticing the fans of racism, the more you spark and tickle the ears of folks, the more dangers that will come. That is why I told you these protests will not die down anytime soon, especially when more people have died, and people turning on each other.

That being said, Black Lives Matter is indeed a problem. A negative one, granted they have hit the religious and political scene, reaching that level.

@4Jah2me I always state "[a bit] unrelated" as well as"going back to the topic". When something I deem unrelated, I make a brief remark, and it is very brief.

But as JWI pointed out, this was the case, seen by others. If we are to speak of a subject better, somehow CSA is always included, likewise, with other things. Butler also had a way of stating things out of nowhere, like for instance, I explained to him what a passage met and he just those in religious studies as you have. He called Billy and I parrots, but here we see you refer to Billy as a patriot. When I a fact, he always disagrees even though the fact is indeed true. Butler even tried to mock by linking me sites to Unitarian denominations, which you have done, both attempts failed, only this time there was no apology. Butler also had quite the interactions with Tom, nearly in every topic present, which mirrors you and Tom now, hence the interactions, which very similar. Good ol' Tom, right?

Therefore it is not hypocrisy, the other thread this can be seen. Also, if I can bring up a majority of instances, even the one concerning Billy.

That being said

22 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

But it is Butler that adds things out of nowhere to a discussion is it ?

• Butler adds CSA into the discussion of a Bible passage or a subject
• I present facts about CSA from the FBI and try to continue toe topic.
• Butler disagrees with the facts and deemed me a racist and and a parrot because I quoted the FBI - continues to add more CSA subject matter.
• I did not mind because I stated that is the FBI and CSA services facts from them, not mine.

You can handle it you said? Recent topics said otherwise..... Thus making your claim null.

@JW Insider I think he started one, but whenever I asked him and when others asked him about the current situation, he gave little to no update. What he pointed out was something that can be seen, as I pointed out, difficult to deal with, which is child on child abuse. As for his other topics, be it something of the Bible, Butler will make a point based on how he views it, yet when corrected, he is in disagreement and or does not learn from mistake, and continues to press the notion.

That being said, I am strongly thinking the two to be one in the same.

Other than that, granted the news media is sparking racial tension, I haven't seen them bring up any facts on the matter, and those who, on apps like instagram and the like, are spinning the information. Truthers out there are giving the actual facts on the statistics of the demographics who are doing crime, and them being killed by the police. Regarding George Fylod, he had a life that was not good, and some of his actions deem that, and later one, he may have been repentant but continue to deal with drug problems and have done minor things that are negative, but regardless of this fact, he should not have died in that matter. There are people out there that are trying to justify the death now, and using George's past against him, granted it was indeed bad, but they are using it every single time. On the other side of the spectrum, I think one of the police officers involved in his death got out, I'd have to look into it more. There is also more calls for government to be involved, and granted of what is being done, even the movement of the UN, it will be a while til we get back to normal, and may have to adapt to a new normal. 

Meanwhile... Covid-19 is spiking.

9 hours ago, Outta Here said:

What I have realised with many of the critical comments from some on this forum, is that they have rejected their own versions of what they think are the beliefs held by JWs. That is why it is so difficult to understand where they are coming from. Their perceptions are alien because they are personal. They assume they must be shared by all, hence the paucity of explanation, and the irrationality of their criticism. And judging from the murky glimpses of those perceptions through the sarcastic and complicated reasonings they present, little wonder they rejected them!

What I see here is that they make a claim, for example the verse in question, Revelations 5:10, the ones present here, specifically 4Jah2me, states that the wording is different, but when it comes to anyone with even the most elementary literal Hebrew/Greek backing, they can see that there is no word violation in this verse, for G#1909 is no other word outside of that Strong's. 4Jah2me's case would have been stronger IF he mentioned verses such as 1 Timothy 3:16, Revelations 1:11, and other examples because there are violations in these verses that can result is not just a mistranslation but a misunderstanding of the verse, other interesting ones would be such as Titus 2:13 whereas you have the involvement of the Grandville's Sharp Rule that can negate in a misunderstanding.

The thing is, even outside of Jehovah's Witnesses, the facts and evidence is there. It is obvious that all 3 of them refuse to go to Biblehub, 4Jah2me only quoted 5 verses to fit his notion, when if one looks at the verse and the context on Biblehub, it, in of itself, backfires on 4Jah2me, as with Witness who also cited the literal Greek. As for context, it is very obvious, so obvious that a child can see it. It is the very reason as to why none of them want to go to the commentary for the context on Biblehub, and it is the very reason as to why 4Jah2me and Srecko refuse to cite the Jehovah's Witnesses view because it mirrors the commentary on Biblehub. In Christianity, concerning this verse, there is only ONE VIEW that differs, that is, if the person believes that Jesus is Yahweh God, THEN, there is a massive different in context. It is obvious that 4Jah2me knows that Jesus is the Son of God, but because the verse on Biblehub and the JWs community, it was too afraid to even bring up the context even though I told him to cite it several times, then I had to do it, which was expected. And to Witness' case, who claims to be chosen, should have pointed out the context, but said nothing, so to this alone I agree with others who called her chosen status into question several times.

What is the reality is that Facts stand forth against the personal. For in a different term, Biblical Understanding is far above Man's understanding, granted 4Jah2me is mostly John Butler, he even points this out, but chooses to commit to Man's understanding instead. JWInsider pointed this out to me, should have seen it when 4Jah2me mentioned Billy and called him a Parrot, which Butler deemed me after I hit him facts.

In short, they are bibical ignorant, for God commits no confusion. I can see that too, but you know what they say - clowns will continue to be clowns despite the camera is not rolling, especially those who are willfully ignorant.

That being said, I did not want to use 1 John 4:1, but they pushed it, so they buried their own hands in the sand.

13 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Hello Space! 

Hello.

13 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I can notice how You and @Arauna thinking differently about "past, history".

You mentioned the verse about sharpens elsewhere, a few days ago actually. I even told you, one who sharpens dwells in what is true, but one who dwells on misinformation as is with doing negative things, will only dull him or herself.

When one sharpens, they become willful and strong, just even, but on the other side of the spectrum, when one becomes dull, they it will take some time for them, if they want to, to sharpen themselves, for the latter tends to refuse to sharpen themselves.

That is why I conveyed that context of the verse in question to you when you misapplied it.

Do you want me to quote you, if that is what you are asking because if I do so now, not only it will go away from the verse being talked about, well you always want to deviate of course, you will try to focus on that and not the verse in question.

You did this before when you deemed God an approver of brazen conduct in terms of altering the one's body to another sex, when God detests these things, you later said otherwise compared to your original statement.

That is why, you as a misguided soul, can be very contradicting, and that is just one of many examples.

13 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Arauna don't want to bother herself about WTJWorg history, and not about my history on this forum.

But it never stopped you for doing the same. I told you every time, I am from CSE, we bring up things said to pose example in discussion and or debate, so what did you expect? You did so several times bring up my statements, I do not stop you, and yet when I bring up anything regarding your statements, you take it as a threat.

So you tell me, you think Witness and 4Jah2me agrees with your notion of Abraham being selfish? Or do you think they agree with you on God being an approver of brazen conduct? Clearly no, but they will agree with you here when someone else does it, but they won't when you do it.

Mind you this has nothing to do with JWs, those examples were you using the Bible to speak some insane narratives that are more fit for The Twilight Zone.

That being said, every time when it is about a subject, be it about the Bible, as I said to you, do so without holding the hands of a JW, but you continue to do so, you remain on them because without them, you cannot hold your own when it comes to the Bible alone, likewise with the others, even the Trinitarians, who they themselves are more capable despite the fact the Theology being incorrect.

13 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

But you do save "records" about other people, what is for praise. :)))) 

Christians and those who solely study the Bible on CSE, both current and former, always keep record [https://christianity.stackexchange.com/] and [https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/]. It is not for praise, it is for a call back and or refutation, even mistake made by the people, me included, I make note of, for mistakes are made if further research is necessary. I even said I am a debater, and a person who response to something that is incorrect and or confusing, etc.

Therefore, unlike you, I do not believe rocks can literal speak, the Bible states this as something figurative, not literal. So clearly when it comes to Scripture, I will call back this notion of yours if need be when it comes to Biblical Understanding, and let's not forget, your favorite topic [Biblical Facts], that one really buttered your croissant.

13 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

You are not like JW elders who must destroy all notes and records about past cases they handled while were dealing with people. :))

Last I checked, the ExJW, I cited said otherwise, both you and Witness stated you do not wish to learn more although the very source of yours proved you wrong, I rather not link said topics here to which can backfire on you.

As we can see here, you are again deviating to a subject to which you were spoken to about, several times.

So, I suggest you adhere to what is being asked of you regarding Revelations 5:10, so I ask you again, if they are in the wrong, cite what they have stated about Revelations 5:10, if you must, you can also cite Biblehub as I have, if the latter is incorrect, regarding context, as 4Jah2me has stated.

Granted I even told you before you cannot hold your own with the Bible alone, I gave you a handicap to cite. It is not as difficult as 4Jah2me is making it out to be.

So to this - I wait. You deviate, I can make a remark on what you conveyed just to further prove my case about the verse you mentioned a few days ago.