Space Merchant
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Posts posted by Space Merchant
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5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:
I read part of this lot but I give up on you SM. You talk too much but say very little in real terms, You go over and over the same stuff.
I do not care about real terms? You have stated yourself such things is of an idea as if it does not exist, you show yourself to be a means to the problem to think of such in this way, which is the same case with those who profess the same attitude as you do, and thus problem ensues. People who are concern and caring take into account of any such persons with this based minded mentality, some to an extent, a mob mentality.
Same stuff? Please. One can count up the measure of what you profess by your own hand which surpasses even mine, unlike you, I am being far more realistic and understanding of things - you however, are not, thus being alien to the things taking place around you, even within your area.
I asked you for several things (only once in the previous response of which clearly you have dodged), some of which you made the claim, I have not, reasons why I told you to show me.
And I asked or the following:
Quote- So show me the evidence of making claim to inspired prophets whereas the information present outweighs the falsehood of such claims.
- Most importantly, I want you so show me the claim you made against me about supporting Islam when I merely explained their view to you, not once, but several times.
- Show me as to where the JWs are of demonic influence.
- Also I want you to show me prove of God's approval, as you so claim before.
- I asked you to show me evidence to which you seem to consider me incorrect in hence your acceptiveness with the others, you have not brought up anything being asked of you let alone when the others have been asked, they brought nothing themselves, thus resulting in the incorrection being done on those who profess and agree with something that is false. Therefore the truth has been made known. Such ones never claimed to be inspired prophets or infallible.
- You made claim I am supporting Islam when I merely explained Islam to you and their beliefs even attested to showing the misconceptions to which the latter had went dead silence, clearly explaining something and correcting someone on Islam does not show as support. I asked you to show me as to where am supporting Islam of which it is unfounded, thus making you a lair in ever sense for he word. Nest time make sure you have the proof before you say something.
- The next claim is that JWs have a demonic influence, as brought up by Witness and it is of something agreeable in the eyes who side with him. Since none have yet to show me any of this claim of demonic influence, it makes the latter a lair because such a thing is unfounded, moreover, when I was in discussion with him, you had your say hence why the question is being asked of you, to which it is seen as unfounded.
- You yourself made claim that you seem to know of whom God approves or not (thus putting you in a position one would say thinking for God). This alone shrouds you in deception in every sense.
When someone makes claim they cannot prove and resort to a response such as yours, then there is no resolve on that person's part, after all, you asked for it and yet you could not even deliver. It is one thing to be confused about something, but it is another to express ignorance and doing so knowingly and or be a yes-man to conspiracy and or false information.
You put yourself in the same boat as the Trinitarian who tried to make claims in regard of Christian history only for it to not go well with him in the end where he used John 8:44 on his self, thus engineering his own failure.
5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:Not all Germans were Nazis. No but it took most of Germany to do what they did in WW2. It wasn't just one or two of then was it ?
The fact you do not understand the gravity of this quote shows how blind you truly are, Mr. Butler and the irony here is I used that quote to make a point, of which you have proven as predicted.
Most of German? No. You do realize how the Nazi Regime was with not just its captive, but of their own who was against them, an example would be the German Resistance against the Nazis and Hitler. The German Resistance, although German and of Germany were separate from the Nazis and the actions of the Nazis do not define the German Resistance.
The Secret State Police otherwise known as The Gestapo and the Security Service (SD) suppressed the open criticism of the regime professed by Nazi opposers, hence the German opposition to the Nazi state and the regimentation of society. These Germans were not for the Nazis, nor were they for Hitler and not allow of them hated the primary targets of the Nazis - The Jews.
The opposition against the Nazi was also even among their own faction whereas people started to go against the Regime itself, even Hitler, an example would be Wilhelm Canaris.
Of course it was not one, two, or perhaps several hundreds, but not all of Germany was for the Nazis, some opposed, some were against, for these individuals who were in opposition to the Nazis are not defined as Nazis. and yet people to day will insult a random German, or a German-American and calling them Nazis when they and or their household do not have anything to do with Nazis whatsoever.
This mentality existence in every aspect: Race, Religion, even Sex whereas you have such ones like Feminist who will do anything and everything to destroy your life if they had the chance.
That being said, do not ever mistake something that is true to be an idea when the mentality exists.
Learn the history, it may benefit you, Butler.
5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:The problems in the JW org start at the top with the GB, and then filter down via the levels of 'authority' to the Elders.
And? Religious leaders regardless of what they do or say does not define men, women and children of that faith. Although their practices are the same, any of those religious leaders does not define a JW who is in the Virgin Islands, perhaps another in Africa, maybe one in Japan or the be it the US or UK, each and everyone one of them are different.
For if an action is taken by a church elder, him being exposed to be someone vile and one who did a crime, it does not define others of that church, of that faith, the very point I make time and time again whereas you have before defined them instantly by means of your own experience in your own JW church, for such a thinking professed by you or the masses is absurd and even outside of that it leads to other actions such as vengeful attacks and or hate crime if it escalates.
You also speak of cleansing, something that is deemed nigh impossible because you have amount 7.53 billion+ people in the world, any one of them can become a JW by means of evangelicalism, you do not know their true intent, for a guy who joins them exactly wants betterment in his life and to understand who God is while another guy who joins them only to commit to gang stalk women, another may join them to seek children - they would not know unless it is too late, let alone not realizing any signs professed by someone.
Put yourself in a position of a religious leader, what would you do when you do not know the intent of perhaps 30 people in a small church you built, perhaps 100 or more, maybe 18,000. You would not be able to cleanse anything when you do not know the intent and or history of someone who chooses to go to your church and even outside of the church, the problem is far greater than you realize. You remove one, more will come, each with a ill unique intent of their own to do bad to commit problems and or harm to members of your church, the culprit could even be a young child and you not even know.
That being said, all men are imperfect, problems that irks you cannot be down away totally by the hands of man, the very reason I stated only God can clear up such a thing 100%, something of which Srecko tends to mock because he remains ignorance that all men are imperfect.
5 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:The Elders act on the orders of the GB. It's almost a dictatorship. But you SM have no real idea..........................
Dictatorship? If that is the case you should make yourself an Anti-Pauline and tear out pages from your own Bible, see how well you fair with True Christians once you do this.
Jesus built the church and it has been structured for Orderly Worship, in as much professed by Apostle Paul when he spoke of Creation, granted, as seen in the Bible his notion of such when referring to the First man - Adam, and the First Woman - Eve. If the church does what it needed to up-build it's people, even use its abilities to reinstate, expel, purify, etc that isn't dictatorship, and all churches do this however the only church who has done it the right way for so long was the apostolic church in which only a few follow, it is a problem if the church waters down what the apostolic church has done and or abandons it totally. I suggest you learn about the church of which Jesus build a long time ago and learn what the Apostolic Church is because this is pure ignorance by you on your own part. Another factor is Restoration Christians are strict, even Bible strict but they are not dictatorial and heir teachings and ruling comes from that of the Bible, as with all True Christians who understands this also.
You stated last time religious leadership was something of Pharisees, which came to bite you in the end when such was refuted and you had been corrected thoroughly - therefore I do have an idea because I understand the Theological Christology of a majority of Anti-Trinitarianic groups.
If I had no idea, then why is it I corrected you on the early church before whereas you claimed religious leadership is a Tradition of Men?
That being said, as followers of the Christ, people did follow the disciple, Paul even, people did follow the other religious leaders of that time because their spiritual goal remains the same and is aligned with the church, which is the same case with some of us today. For the only head of the church is the Christ, and God is above him, regardless of who the religious leader is.
I need not link the apostolic church link again because I gave you the link before. God knows if you read it or not, but the truth has been spoken in this regard.
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14 hours ago, Vic Vomidog said:
Any mention of pillows is a sore subject with me. Many of my friends had to go naked for the sake of these.
The thing is people are sleeping on things as if it does not exist. Famine, Racism, Rape Culture, Far-Left/Right nonsense, people being pushed out of homes as a means of getting people to get surveillance homes and a list of other things.
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2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:
OK SM it's your choice whom you believe. But a lot of evidence has been placed here on this forum showing that the GB tell lies. You may call it making mistakes if you wish.
So show me the evidence of making claim to inspired prophets whereas the information present outweighs the falsehood of such claims.
Most importantly, I want you so show me the claim you made against me about supporting Islam when I merely explained their view to you, not once, but several times.
Show me as to where the JWs are of demonic influence.
Also I want you to show me prove of God's approval, as you so claim before.
The lot of you didn't even know the difference of an inspired prophet and who who is not, so what more can you show me than snippets from a book whereas in the same paragraph is self-refutes the claim you have made?
2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:Why would God and Jesus even bother to have a Faithful and Discreet Slave if Jesus was not going to pass on perfect truthful information to them ?
If anyone knows the history. Jesus entrusted the disciples to continue on in his behalf, of which the disciples have done so, as with the churches, the early Christians and Paul. Christians can and will make mistakes but it does not defeat the purpose of the message they will bring, even some mistakes made by the actions of their own hand they make up for it for they are human, they are imperfect and they have perhaps more sense to even realize that. This was the case with Eusebius who knew the errors of some folk and corrected them, especially when he exposed those who take up things that is accursed, defending a verse of which all of us know today to which the mainstream has misinterpreted.
This is the same case with Christians today when it comes to such, for ever man and woman can stumble, but it does not stop them from standing back up.
2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:Why would God even bother to have an Organisation named after Him, if He was not going to have Jesus do things properly ?
Because when Jesus formed the church, the disciples did what they had to do to maintain peace in the church, in Paul's case, he had the ability to bind and loosen, just as the others have, to remove what is seen as bad in the church, mainly when it came to unrepentant ones, of which we see an example of such in the Bible.
As Christians we are to preach to all people, help them learn what the gospel actually is so that they too can learn, so that they too can understand why Jesus is the Head of the Church, and why God is the head of the Christ and so forth, for if people are not taught these things it will lead to outlandish practices and doctrines that has no origin within the church whatsoever.
And if one does not adhere to the Great Commission it is an utter disservice to the one who gave the command, for a Christian to not adhere such a command how can he say he follow the Christ? He or she is only kidding themselves if they are as such.
For there is a distinction between a Christian who is True and a Christian who is False and it shows who is doing things accordingly and who is not.
2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:You are insulting God Himself
Insulting? How would I be insulting God when the one who agree with things God sent Satan to do his bidding?
I am not insulting God whatsoever because I am speaking the truth in this matter. I am not someone such as yourself who lives in a box not realizing the gravity of the situation of what the world is. I do anything and everything for the truth of the Scriptures and of God and unlike you I will not stoop to the lowest level and make claim I am a Christian and yet show the true colors which will result in people to profess question.
Therefore, I want you to prove yourself claim because I can easily prove how you attempt to violate Scripture by means of thinking something of today's language reflect the language of Old. That is if you protest to go there, I am able and willing.
That being said I defended God's order, the ones you have agreed with were against it. So you tell me who is insulting God if you want to play this game of yours in this way.
2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:agreeing with any thoughts that say the GB of the JW Org are the Faithful and Discreet Slave. Why so ? Because the GB and the JW Org have been proved wrong so many times. So they cannot have God's backing or Christ's.
Then show me as to where they claimed to be inspired prophets and infallible. If I speak the truth about the difference of a prophet inspired and not inspired, they have at it then.
Tell me exactly as to when and where they made this claim otherwise you remain in deceit of your own design and of those who profess it.
The JWs themselves is a denomination, a Christian faith, and seeing that they hold true to their Restorationist roots, they have religious leaders, their church has roles as is not to different from those who does anything and everything to be like the early church. They understand that God isn't a Triune Being, they understand the importance of the Great Commission of which the latter has shown to be against in an older debate. They understand that the world is indeed wicked in a sense to the price of which we pay by the hands of our first parents who committed sin and disobeyed God and they understand, like all persons in the world, be it religious or not, they such things cannot be resolved by humans hands, but only of God.
something of which you remain to be shrouded by that simply fact. You cannot cleanse an entire faith because you do not know who goes in and out of the faith. You cannot cleanse the world of it's imperfection because man is unable to do such a task by their own hand let alone any government on the face of this earth.
for you to remain ignorant to this face further proves you are among those who do not take into account what is taking place and perhaps, like Kairos, be easily swept by their words and be nothing more than a follower of them, one of the very reasons I hold a strong disdain for Interfaith because I did the research and I observed, I know who is the real threat here, clearly you do not.
2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:As for your idea that "He does not know that the actions of alone person a killer, a pedophile, a con man, even if that person is in the church of Jehovah's Witnesses, the actions of such a man does not define all of them."
Idea? Have you checked the news recently? Perhaps the Security Guard who was a hero but ended up being shot and the aftermath of the action? Did you really miss such things? Do you even pay attention and or vigilant of what is going on?
When it comes to an action done by someone of a race, a faith, a background and or upbringing, the actions of the sole individual makes puts people in the mentality of seeing all persons of that following the same. Examples would be Muslims, and seeing you are in the UK this should come as no surprise to you because it happens and you know it happens, granted you posted articles that even have links to such tragic stories.
If someone does something, someone of that faith,. their whole faith and it's people are demonized, blamed, insulted they are spoken of as being a terror group, this takes place in public spaces and even schools and it goes on, it goes for people of racial backgrounds as well whereas if someone of a race is killed by someone who is not of that race, a whole racial group is to blame for the actions of one person, it does not define everyone as the same for the actions of a single man. This mentality is what is poisoning our society and some of us are woke enough to see that. But clearly you thinking it is my idea further proves your ignorance.
That being said, actions committed by a killer, a pedophile, a con-man does not define everyone. Granted it is not unknown to people that religious institutions have some who commit to pedophilia, and it is no surprise it happens in the churches of the Jehovah's Witnesses, but it is absurd and foolish to attest to the very idea that because of the actions of a man or a few that thousands of others should be called as such on the streets for an action they had no hand in.
Again, the case with the Church disruption done by Mr. Gardner and friends, they refereed to the JWs who had no idea what was going on, you can see the fear in their faces, and they insulted, even shamed, when they did no wrong to no one.
If you have people backing away from the actions done by such ones, that it on itself is a problem because last I checked, when I made mention of this months ago you were nowhere to be found, so do not act like you know the situation when you have no idea of what went down it was more than that and such ones made more enemies than friends/allies.
2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:Um, How many Pedophiles ? How much Child Abuse ? How many Elders Earthwide have been convicted ?
I told you before, the Jehovah's Witnesses are not immune to those who commit pedophilia and or abuse children, no one is as is with ALL institutions. That actions of such ones even among JWs who do that does not define the masses, does it define the JWs on this forum? No. Does it define those who had their churches raided? No. Does it define the Russian JWs? No. If one JW does the cirm he will do the timer, case and point, but his actions does not define all JWs around the globe, even the ones here, it the onw who is branded as a criminal does not reflect them also.
Problems like this will continue to happen because pedophilia is widespread and it has started to happen in restaurants also. To the Unitarians is his not unknown either for even Unitarians are found out to be pedophilia, but despite this, it does not define all of them, the same with Muslims and others, even Jews, of which they had a shooting take placer weeks ago for them in the US. Another situation where a little girl was not just abused but she was violently molested in a school in the US, does it define all Americans because of the actions of this man? No. It is things like that you have to realize because clearly you speak of showing care as did before but you present another face when it comes to claim. In my case, I am for education and teachings young ones to do what is right, so they themselves do not become a target and I am happy of what I accomplished in this domain because I know what the CAP is doing actually works.
That being said, Child Prevention Services even gave examples of trying to minimize the situation and or recognize them, even offering help and solutions to which you your yourself to be in opposition of (which is the same case with ARC and its solutions), as is evident at every instance of which I presented even pulled information from those sources to present to you and others. So you tell me, you think Child Abuse and Neglect Prevention is a joke or not, and how is it you are helping the cause when such things are seen as lacking on your part?
No one can stop pedophilia, we can only do our best to minimize the issue wherever it is, the same way that we cannot stop famine or war 100%, this we cannot stop completely for it is indeed earth wide and spreading and some even are fighting to defend pedophilia as if it is some special sexual orientation. The best I can do is educate our children and others adults, perhaps you yourself should be doing the same thing, keeping our youth able and ready so they can teach others. You should try it sometime.
2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:The Two Witness Rule of the GB carried out by the Elders. Where ? Earthwide.
I already explain after I did the research ever since the ARC thread.
Perhaps correct yourself before you speak. They have a use for the ruling and it is not unknown to anyone of what that is. Even NBC, the same MSM organization do not have all the facts to the ruling but the actual information of where I pulled it from speaks the truth in this matter.
2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:The Child Abuse where ? Earthwide. The Shunning that affects thousands of people where ? Earthwide.
Child abuse is everywhere it is not secluded to solely Jehovah's Witnesses. You are in the UK, you should be aware of grooming gangs but the fact you are unaware of such things unless I brought it up further proves your stance and your views.
The shunning is actually biblical but only cuts church ties. This has been proven true with Biblical Facts, as with regarding JWs, even former members make the same claim.
Understand as to why that command is entrusted,but you not knowing that further proves where you lack in spiritual wisdom.
2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:So your stupid idea of the actions of alone person a killer, a pedophile, a con man.
Stupid idea? It is no idea, it is an actual mentality, to some extent, a mob mentality.
In the US you do realize why police officers are attack on occasion sometimes? Because people prompt the mentality to blame all police officers for the actions of a single officer on the other side of the US or elsewhere. If a police officer commits murder, even a racist one, if they rape, if they extort, if they pin the blame or planet drugs on someone, etc. This will cause people to speak and assume that because of that lone police officer, it defines all of them. Which is not something and or even a path we should follow.
Even to you guys in the UK, should someone do something it does not define you, or the rest of the people in your vicinity. Should one commit a crazy crime, a knife or acid attack which is common in the UK and such was done out of hate - does it define you? No. How will others define you? They will equate to you as the culprit, like him who did the crime, they will speak slander of you and a list of others things we you know yourself and your family knows you are not that guy, but others who are very angry with the criminal, they will spare no stone to protest that you are the villain.
This mentality is a gross one, we such a thing should not be passed on to our children.
It all goes back to Evo's question of which you said he was trying to trick you. He had a good reason saying that.
2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:Hold no water at all. Because it is hundreds if not thousands of wicked ones within the JW Org. And it is because of the GB's rules and the Elders acting as puppets, that things have been allowed to happen.
That is sheer ignorance. With what has gone down throughout the years and you attest such holds no idea when the mentality is there in this sense? Srecko may be under a rock on some things, but you show yourself to be perhaps lost in space. First, not all JWs are wicked, and even the bad ones do not define all the rest, even the ones on this forum, they do not even define Kathgar that would have ended up as a target for ISIS a while back.
And Here is where you contradict yourself. You do not assume things of people nor do you judge, and yet you are found out to say the following: [And it is because of the GB's rules and the Elders acting as puppets] Any JW here is a puppet? As far as I am concern no one is a puppet here, thus making your insult towards them as weak as your claim of being supporting Islam when I merely explained it to you.
Pedophilia had been around for a long time and it has infiltrated all intuitions, even in Bible times regarding Baal Worshipers who were cursing God's people although not mention, such ones were indeed young. They do not allow it to happen because they to do their best, you'd be surprise as to some of them who actually took the advice of Child Abuse Prevention Services and applied it by educating themselves and others, which is the case with an African JW I spoke of before.
You need to wake yourself up because this is reality, not a dream, and such of what is said is no idea when it takes place all over the place, all over the world, you have examples of that with the Jews and Samaritans even in Bible times, but not all Jews (even in Jesus' case and those connected to him) are the same, not all Samaritans are the same.
Meditate on this quote, Butler and do the research, read whatever news you adhere to, because you show yourself in critical need of it.
“Don't let the actions of a few determine the way you feel about an entire group. Remember, not all German's were Nazis.”
Erin Gruwell
That begin said, check thyself before you wreckth thyself because thing the so called idea is stupid, it shows you fail to see what is going around you in the world, let alone your own country, as of which I made mention with London already, as did others.
I leave you with this. If Child Abuse is that much of a concern for you, why not adhere to what child prevention services who are instructing people to do, by means of teaching, even PSA and videos, helping people to help prevent someone else from being a victim or the one who preys on victims; passing on teachings to someone younger to help lessen abuse? If it can help others, it can help you even teach you so that anyone who sees you as a guardian can also be helped Instead of attacking JWs on the daily simply speak them calmly and even educate them in his sense, come to them as they are a blood brother/sister of yours and teach them if need be, it does not have to be JW only, you have Catholics, Jews, Muslims, etc - at least this is where you can come to common round with such folks outside debate and discussion. After all, it is far worse in the UK than it is here in the US. Do yourself a favor and do what I do, educate them -
@JOHN BUTLER Simply just go talk to them, it didn't stop others from doing this. But with the way things are going people can be concern of who they are confronted by. Clearly if you being to attack them they will not continue any further.
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51 minutes ago, Vic Vomidog said:
If you could keep your aviarphobic hatred to yourself I would appreciate it. You are nearly as bad as that ridiculous TTH.
He does not know that the actions of alone person a killer, a pedophile, a con man, even if that person is in the church of Jehovah's Witnesses, the actions of such a man does not define all of them. This goes hand in hand with someone who is of and or former by their own experience, they do not define everyone else.
Butler's experience does not define the experience and actions of another UK counterpart of his, an Arab JW named Kathgar.
This mentality is absurd to assumption of the masses for the sake one one or two foolish ones. Such a mentality plagues everything from religion to education, and even in the realm of medicine and disease.
But as one guy mentioned today to me, that is the mind of people of the world nowadays. As of recent a Security Guard was shot and killed for stopping a gunman. An honest man would know that one police officer should be held accountable, but it does not bring anyone justice to attack all police officers for the sake one man who took such action, to add more fuel to the fire it becomes more of a racial thing.
People can be better than that but they refuse to bring forth the betterment of themselves thus passing on the erroneous actions of their hands to the children, the next generation and they to their children, next generation.
That being said, such ones need to wake up, but that therapeutic pillow is just too good for them and they remain asleep.
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2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:
Oh dear S. M. you do love to fill the page with words, don't you. Repeating the same old stuff over and over again.
Can you point anywhere as to where I had made mention to Christians who have spiritual gifts - elsewhere besides here, Butler?
Also I do not see why you now refrain from quoting me so I can get a notification this time.
2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:You are a parrot. You read things and repeat it. YOU DO NOT HAVE FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE OF IT.
Surely I expect a stronger response than that than that parrot remark, but you know as they say, when you Resort To naming, it shows that you’ve lost the argument. There isn't a single thing I've mention that is not true and everything I speak of is indeed true.
Also Mr. Butler, if you have forgotten, the study of religion is actually a thing. Where have you been Butler? In the mountains?
You speak of experience but you wee only secluded to a single JW church in your place of dwelling. Your experience does not define the masses, now does it Mr. Butler, if you show yourself to be of that mentality, which was somewhat showing last time, it makes you a the cause of a bigger problem that is the realm of anything else including religion.
2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:Repeating the same old stuff over and over again.
Oh really then? So what was your actions in response for the last several threads in span of months now, Butler?
the difference things I am aware of the situation of things, you are not.
To speak of such and yet you are found to be replicating the same, but it is to commit to discussion than what is spoken of - like right now.
2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:Yes the GB and JW Org are still there but they are in trouble, not from Christendom, but from ex members who have suffered and now see the truth.
Not all former members, granted the existence and evidence of those, former Jehovah's Witnesses, they are against former Jehovah's Witnesses who seek to take every little thing to attack the faith community, some of them even going as far as to wanting to see, even seek the death of all Jehovah's Witnesses because they do not like them or what they do.
They are in danger of Christendom of he mainstream, did you forget the number of events that took place before the Russian Ban? The stolen money? What took place in a Russian School? The War parades? Clearly you do not know any of such things because you do not want to do the research, you are a yes-man to every bit of information through your way and accept it as is without even taking some time to do the research. To add more fueling to the fire, disgruntled ones tend to paint all JWs as the same and they will attack anyone or any JW, even a JW who has a visible and yet obvious disability if need be.
Plus you have people who are not of the faith nor give a care of the Bible coming to the defense of those they know in the faith, defending them from disgruntled ExJws - there is a video of that, even the atheists have that video too, this also includes the one individual who was ready to take action on disgruntled JWs who went after his girlfriend, who is of that faith community - as Evo pointed out.
Yes there are those who suffer, indeed, but not all of them for everyone situation is different, same faith yes, but the background and things such each person faces varies, and or is vastly different.
2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:Ex members of JW Org and even some current members in disguise, make known the disgusting things that go on in the JW Org.
Everyone does this, in schools, religions, clubs, even conventions of anything, they do this, mainly if they do not agree with them or does not like them. You think this is of some new unfounded design?
2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:The protests that you hate are by people that have been hurt by the GB rules.
Who said anything about hate? Show me as to where I said I hate protesting. Do not twist my words because as I told you before protesting in this sense does not do any good, an ExJW stopped the protest, he was backed up by a gay man and an artist as well, the very man who stopped it is someone of whom Srecko supports.
If you want to know those who committed to the protest last year even wanted the religious leaders of JWs to show up to speak with them, the EXJWs joked about assassination attempts, and onward they went on to disrupt religious service of a church they do not agree with. Even some of their own backed out because they knew it was too much, even atheist bring this up.
The churches that they rallied together backed out also because although they agree/disagree with JWs on some thing they too know it was not right. Among the ExJWs they even wanted to get the US president to ban and or attack JWs, wipe them off of the face of the US.
You tell me how far is one willing to go when anyone and everyone can see with their eyes this is not the right way, to which even people of that county even state and see it as borderline extremism? Tell me John Butler, you think this is right when even churches back out as with others?
That being said, if being okay with disruption and take over a church is cool with you, clearly you need to be checked out because any sane man can see that this is downright wrong, it is not about hate, it is about how this was done and by whom and what was the result by means of the aftermath. All this went on as ANTIFA was beating the water out of people in the streets with the Black Bloc party and BAMN, lead by a school professor who is among the spokesman for the group to commit violence.
2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:Some of them find it hard to hold back their pain so release it in a negative way. That is wrong of course but it shows the pain they feel.
What happen last year was not of pain. Yes people were hurt and they felt something, but some of them backed out when things got chaotic for they themselves knew it was not right, it only pains them as much as an enemy to disgruntled JWs than the JWs themselves. Clearly there are better ways, but such in such matter is not one of them. Moreover, it creates people into enemies in the process, which was the case with the one guy going on a warpath against ExJWs for his girlfriend who was in that same JW church that was disrupted in Passaic County.
even outside of religion any sane person would know this isn't the right way to express ones feelings or pain, for in the US that is asking for bloodshed in some if not most situations when this go downhill.
2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:You seem to be 'playing it safe' by being a Unitarian and also supporting the JW's.
Playing it safe? I have been a Biblical Unitarian since I was 6. Not only I studied the Bible, but I studied religions very early, hence my stance on the Trinity, but at the same time to speak the gospel I have to understand the rights from wrongs and know that anything accursed must be refuted.
It isn't about support, it is about exposing falsehood of conspiracy spread by people who clearly has a disdain for the faith. Witness mentioned 2 books by JWs that ExJW use that primarily to proof false prophets, people who claim to be inspired but the claim in of itself is unfounded. even in our history of Christendom you would never caught a Non-Trinitarian make that claim, and if it unknown to everyone JWs do not believe in the Trinity thus maintain Restorationist roots.
Unless you want to show me as to where Jehovah's Witnesses or Watchtower, what have you owns Nintendo and Victoria Secret stocks, as claimed by ExJws, then show me if I am in the wrong, Butler. Because I can pull up one quote from an ExJW that has proven the people in question in error, as I have done here now regarding a prophet and an inspired prophet.
Moreover, I do not see how spiritual gifts of a normal prophet does not make one inspired and or infallible has gone amissed - it tell you the difference in the Scriptures.
Therefore, I speak truth of the matter, nothing more, you want to see it a support, so be it, but a man who speaks of conspiracy and error will and shall forever be refuted if need be.
2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:You also seem to support other religions, even Islam.
Do you have proof? Explaining misconceptions and errors people say about Islam isn't support. I have an understanding as to what they believe and where they are coming from themselves and yet I am still a Biblical Unitarian.
Clearly here I have explained to you what their belief is because as with anything pertaining to religious studies, I understand rather, which you have done, assume.
And seeing you are in the United Kingdom you will realize how quick your own country will paint you if you do not understand Islam's views, you may end up like Lauren Southern or Tommy Robinson, who on his part, painted everyone as the same for the actions of a few on occasion because he believes error that sparks fear.
2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:What makes you think that any of us do not make God's word known.
Well for starters, you were quick to assume one's forgiveness, you were quick to assume things, you were quick to not speak of as if you know who has God's approval and who does not and a list of others things, to which you agree at one time and later disagree with.
I asked you before a basic question, for if you cannot teach yourself on this small thing, how are you to teach others?
One stated that, even assumed, God's Order has changed when Apostle Paul said otherwise, the other calls Abraham selfish and a lair but the Bible as we read in account of Abraham says the opposite, you think this equates to God's Message? His Word? When the Bible says otherwise even giving us the verse and or passage to which we can see for ourselves about the truth of the matter?
No - clearly someone will say something, refute, perhaps even confute if need be.
2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:Are we not even here speaking up for what is right in God's eyes ?
Then speak up. Do not use false information and conspiracy to justify it as a truth, otherwise you will deal with response in a mater with such ones like me and or other.
Learn and research then come to the conclusion because if someone says something that is found out to be untrue even when the Bible professes the truth, someone who knows what is true will say something, which is the case with the following:
- A Prophet Inspired and Infallible
- A Prophet (Not) Inspired and Infallible
The reasons why I profess the claim of which they bring forth, the same claim of which they bring up those books from - is unfounded. Not even in Non-Trinitarianism History you will find such a thing.
2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:BUT we do not invite people into a known danger, or a known Organisation that teaches lies and pretends to be guided by God.
How are you so sure they are pretending if you yourself do not know who has God's approval or not? You do realize they too are seeking God, as with the rest of us. But going this far to take up claim to false information and conspiracy to claim false prophet makes one the bigger problem and or villain in this case than those they target.
They never claimed to be inspired prophets, Butler, they know this, and everyone else knows this and understand the difference in one inspired and a normal prophet.
Christians today are prophets, clearly not inspired or infallible.
The REAL danger is Babylon's religion, the E.I.I and it clear connection with Lucis Trust, as seen in history, or as some would say, NWO if you even bothered to look into that formation. You should be weary of who is on that side and who isn't, I already gave you one clue and the people who support such is those of the Interfaith, reasons why their conquest is for peace while their counterpart is for security.
2 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:Do not be mistaken, Jehovah's Witnesses and their GB, DO NOT OWN GOD. We can serve God through Jesus Christ and we do not need that Organisation.
No one owns God, indeed, such ones, as with all of us strive to follow God be close to him, and follow his Son, the Christ, Jesus.
The problem you face is what of the church Jesus himself built? You cannot be unaware of this information, if so, why try to follow the Christ if this information is alien to you, after all, you asked me before of what church I am referring to.
That being said, you at some point asked for a debate or stated we are in a debate. With you we can start with 2 things:
- psalms 137:9
- When Kettel was asked of you as to what this is, do you know of it, granted you are a reader of the Bible yourself?
Other than that, everything spoken of is indeed true, one cannot refute the difference of one prophet inspired and the other who is not.
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15 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:
...sounds like you need better sources ....
He's actually a legit one, credible. His name is Jake Morphonios.
The stalking can be explained by him, which was done on US soil
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3 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:
I just noticed something about the picture of a foot with a spike through it, that Space Merchant posted several thread pages back.
1.) I believe if arrested, I would have fought with every ounce of my strength, to be killed on the spot .. rather than try to stay alive a few more hours and have to endure THAT.
2.) The Jews have a reputation of being a very ... uh ... FRUGAL people.
Notice how the end of that spike is bent over after they nailed a second person to the other side of the .... uh ... "cross"?
Romans were brutal. You'd have to leave town before they can capture you, perhaps go overseas and go full incognito. But then you may have a bounty on your head so if you have hear and a beard, best to shave it all off, try to blend in, so this way bounty hunters and assassins will not find you to hand you over to those who want to crucify you.
Other than that, Roman punishment was swift, cruel and ridiculously unusual.
Aside from Crucifixion (that is if they do not get unique with hanging someone upon side on a good day for them), you can be
- Bee Basket'd
- Eaten through the middle by starving animals
- be cauldron tortured
- Public Executions
- buried alive, (something of which Nero took delight in)
- nailed to barrels
- The Arena
- Being burned alive, while bonded
- Fed to Lions
- toured by means of being forced to walk on hot coal that is always burning.
- tied off
- cut in half
- fed to wild hogs
- sewn into a donkey
- tossed to wild barbaric beasts
- possibly decapitation, but they are the types to have enduring pain rather than an instant execution
To them in ancient history regarding Roman, death was not a punishment, it is a release, for torture was punishment, and death was only allowed after a certain amount of pain and terror had been felt.
They got a variety, that for sure.
That being said, it was a brutal time, and if one was Crucified, wait til they go for your legs, they'll break them if you are still somehow barely alive if they need to speed up death, it is that crazy.
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@JOHN BUTLER If I may add, since you are using Biblehub, have you even checked the commentary? If this is regarding John 20:20, 25, then plurality is in use here. Nail(s) is a Masculine Plural whereas Hand(s) is a Feminine Plural (also including a Feminine Singular) - both of them being nouns, which is going with Strong's Concordance.
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15 hours ago, Witness said:
Multiply Kosonen’s experience hundreds of times over, and you, SM, will see why the GB’s apparent contrite, humble words that they are not inspired,and can ( I say “prone” to) err in doctrine…..IS A BIG DEAL.
Kosonen experience does not define the experience as all of them, for in doing so it is sheer demonizing a whole community for the actions of a few, which is a constant even outside of religion and people need to be constantly reminded as to why doing such is bad and clearly I am not a fan of such type of mentality, one of which that is very obvious around the world today whereas harassing a specific group in question, even going as far as to commit hate crimes even killing them is justified out of fear, one example regarding a school I will never forget what one woman said while disgruntled ones, influence by people with such a view, tried to make it seem the actions of a sole individual is justification to attack a whole group.
How so, when Christians today who do errors, why not say such of them when they too understand they are not inspired and not infallible? I can bring up several examples on many, even you, if need be, and I have given examples on my part on my behalf in this regard also.
That being said, you do not have to agree with them, which is understandable and evident, but to accept and even pull information from ones who make the claim of an inspired prophet when the truth of the mater is they are not, even going as far as to not know what a prophet and an inspired prophet is in difference and using that as the stone to your structure will only cause whatever you are pushing to fall. as I told you before, you stumble upon yourself.
If you actually understand the difference between a prophet and a prophet not inspired, you recognize, if you uphold the the Words from the Bible you are too a prophet one with spiritual gifts, clearly not an inspired one, which is the case with Christians today.
Moreover, granted the history of Non-Trinitarians also known as Anti-Trinitarians, they have made errors, but they would never, ever take to the grave with them the claim of being an inspired prophet - ever.
15 hours ago, Witness said:You have spent much time covering inspired prophets vs. uninspired prophets. As I said, among His people, God doesn’t make a distinction. He calls His prophets, “prophets”. If they “proclaim” a message in His name and it doesn’t come true, He refers to them as “false prophets”. Deut 18:20-22; Matt 7:15-20
So where does that leave you then, Witness? A prophet (modern Christian), you who proclaimed Orderly Worship in a different light, an accursed one, rather than the what the church itself has done as history proved evident in, in which you are clearly attacking those who uphold such Order, what of that? Was it not you who was on the opposite side adhering the Great Commission when such is a command from the Lord, Christ Jesus himself? A prophet who is mixing things around to justified his views based on opinions and emotions instead of what the Bible says, thus putting in application man's understanding of a verse and or passage, what of that? A prophet who uses a Biblical forgery to make a justification to his views when that this forgery has been debunked by the manuscript and codex evidence, what of this? Using misinformation to accuse someone of wrongdoing when even a former person of that faith gives a shattering refutation that is like that of a revelation to claims you have made, what of that? Profess to an accursed doctrine that is alien to the church and it applied by those who do not follow any of the teachings from the Bible, what about that brief discussion? Attempted to use someone's mistake and or word against them, and quick to accuse someone for a minor unnecessary thing that they did not see and or was not aware of, what of this? Let alone you proclaiming that God allowing Satan to help in Egypt by means of a single verse, so I ask, what of you if this was the case to instantly assume someone is a false prophet?
You said it best:
15 hours ago, Witness said:IS A BIG DEAL.
For it we must go there, discernment and false prophets, by all means saith thy word and it shall be done.
For if I need to remind you, you were proclaiming something(s) that has never originated with the church at all. So if we are to apply the false prophet claim, it can and will be directed to you.
Deuteronomy 18:20-22 - [20] But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ [21] And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?’— [22] when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.
Matthew 7:15-20 - A Tree and Its Fruit - [15] “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. [16] You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. [18] A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. [19] Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will recognize them by their fruits.
So with the verses you provided and your claims mentioned above - what can someone say about you, granted Christians are prophets who profess by means of spiritual gifts and clearly not by miraculous gifts that inspired prophets have, in this regard, what can you say about yourself, who knowingly made such claims in response?
Clearly you are not one and although I tend to be strict, as I told you before, I see you as someone misguided and a small spark of hatred in you and haven't even pushed the claim you make towards your counterparts - demonic influence (especially with the verse regarding Satan doing God's bidding, according to your previous interpretation). Someone who continues to stumble and eat and believe the words of even those who speak conspiracy and someone, you, who remains ignorant of the view of early Christians and the early Church, even going as far as to seclude all of them by hold focus to one, and being clearly one-sided about it. Stand back up because as I see it, you keep on falling to the ground on to yourself (Proverbs 24:16)
That being said I suggest you think about who is a prophet and who is a false prophet because it remains in contradiction to what you have professed which, if we go by your understanding, puts you in that same category of one being a False Prophet.
Now one thing for certain, to be brief of course, in religion, a false prophet is one who falsely claims the gift of prophecy or divine inspiration, or who uses that gift for evil ends. Often, someone who is considered a "true prophet" by some people is simultaneously considered a "false prophet" by others, even within the same religion as the "prophet" in question.
15 hours ago, Witness said:Are you neglecting the weightier matters of the law of Christ: justice and mercy and faith, as the GB and elder body have?
Clearly I speak the truth in this matter and do not use books produce by them to justify a claim that is proven to be untrue, with evidence that even ranges back top the 1870s - it does not get any much clearer than that. After all you lead me to the very source of your information that even speaks of them as being inspired prophets when clearly they are not.
ALL Christians who adhere to what is true are spirit led, they are not inspired and infallible - if you truly read the Bible, you'd realize that and what position you are in as a Christian.
15 hours ago, Witness said:The organization’s leadership are blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
And yet they are still here, and they are clearly targets of Babylon, that is, if you are aware of everything regarding Christianity that took place from the 2000s and onward, and what went down mid-2015 to now.
People know who is on a conquest for peace. They know who is on the conquest for security. As a source of mine, Solider of God puts it, Christians who are unaware of these things, will easily be swept away by it, which such an example can be pinned on you as per our last discussions. For if Orderly Worship of the Church is vastly different from your view of what is Orderly, who's to say you yourself understand what the Kingdom is all about when you adhere to something that isn't of the Kingdom - should we take such route if need be?
15 hours ago, Witness said:Look at the broader picture, SM, and the damage done to those who follow blind, empty teachings, that leaves one in the DARK. Matt 23:23,24; 1 John 1:5
So what of the current JWs who are on this forum right now, the ones who also make a response to you?
Unlike you, I have enough sense to understand what is right and what isn't right, I understand where someone is coming from and I am very aware of what is a false teaching, what is accursed, what is of the church or not.
If you really want to help people know who God is, perhaps next time you would not be against what the Great Commission is all about, as per our last discussion, in doing so, you yourself put people in the Dark. As I told you before, in Bangkok, Thailand, there are people who has no idea what the bible is or who God is, some who do not even understand, as to what justice is in on your part to not spread the good news gospel and the Messianic Age? The Bible tells you to spread the message, even by means of a command, the Great Commission, why remain do the opposite when claiming to be a professes Christian, who is to spread the message?
If it is anyone who is leading people in the dark, in all honesty, it will have to be you. Jesus gave you a command, and by following the Christ, you must adhere to that command. Jesus entrusted the church also to do the same and to bind and loosen, you should be very aware of such things.
And lastly, you need to understand what the spiritual gifts are because if you do not know that Christians are like prophets for proclaiming the message, knowing they are spirit led, clearly you have to do more research and read more.
That being said, understand what a false prophet is and who does fist that category, and perhaps re-think all the other things you said previously granted you added those verses of false prophets by your own hand.
God's followers even in early ancient times make mistakes, but they are not false ones. As with us all today; for some of us learn, someone us stand back up and try to do what is right in God's eyes and apply and learn from the Scriptures as we progress into the End Times.
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7 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:
I agree with this.... we have some VERY REAL problems concerning witch hunts, power struggles and retribution, obscene paranoias and complete lack of Justice and Mercy .... outside of several million words on the subject that never seem to apply to real world situations.
I do know the real answer, which is actually found in studying the Cult of Mithra, the sect of the worship of "Sol Invictus", the invincible sun, and have read about 11 pounds of books to discover what is and is not the case ... which if I felt like writing seven pages of text, I could prove, but:
In the immortal words of Rhett Butler .....
"Frankly Scarlet ... I don't give a damn!"
This guy?
He reminds me of this guy Sean Connery.
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32 minutes ago, Anna said:
That is what I was trying to explain to you in an earlier post @JOHN BUTLER, so similarly in Greek, the word hand can include the wrist.
Yes. Because in Scripture hands and or wrist [χειρῶν (cheirōn)] can sometimes be used, depending on translation also, but there is no issue. They both point to the same Greek Strong's accordance - Strong's 5495. It is a feminine plural so either using Hand or Wrist does not cause any violation of the Greek Strong's and only those who lack in this sense will not be able to see that. I saith, happy are who understand.
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30 minutes ago, Outta Here said:
Does anyone?
"the Triune reality of God is ultimately beyond human reasoning. As St. Augustine remarked, “If you understood Him, it would not be God”
Carl E. Olson. Editor of Catholic World Report and Ignatius Insight.
The doctrine of the Trinity is as followed:
- [1] There is one and only one God
- [2] God externally exists as 3 distinct and or co-equal persons.
- [3] The Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God
- [4] The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Father, the Father is not the Holy Spirit thus making up the Triune God.
- [5] The Father is not the Triune God, the Son is not the Triune God and the Holy Spirit is not the Triune God.
According to their diagram, the Trinity states God exist in 3 distinct divine persons who are identical in essence, and co-eternal and co-equal in power.
One thing to note they are not too far off from their Modalist and Oneness counterparts.
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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:
Your wall of text has discouraged me into responding, partly because you introduce more information that does not directly involve the topic and I feel this is to distract any reader into actually remembering what the topic of discussion is about.
I tend to response to each response, so it tends to be this way in discussions.
1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:right here you have demonstrated you do not comprehend what the trinity is, nor what trinitarians believe. There is not 3 Gods. I would explain it to you, but I believe that you would play dumb or hold fast to your idea that is already formed. Either way, I suggest you research what the trinity is, as trinitarians believe it. You have already mentioned that you have spoken to James White or someone close to him, that is a great place to start as James DOES know.
Actually I have and I am pulling the information from Triniarian sources of which I been holding on to for several years now. The Trinity Doctrine's belief. There is no question that the doctrine holds to believing in the one and only True God, but they divide God into 3 distinct person, as you put it The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, which are clearly, in this doctrine 3 distinct persons all making up the Triune God, but at the same time, the belief also professes that The Father, Son and or Holy Spirit do not make up the Triune God. I do not go about my own ideas granted that the information came from those who profess the doctrine itself.
I have researched what the Trinity is and know that it when it was brought up and who was involved, when both the word and terminology was coined and so forth granted early Christians were primarily Subornationist, something of which I stated several times before, one of which when I had to deal with another Trinitarian who was moving information in his favor.
Indeed, James White knows his doctrine, he is also known for brushing over the very thing the Christ professed as a child and a list of other things as seen in his debates. James White is known for sending his own to bully those who knows the truth, he is known to have his own followers mock up conspiracy in Hyde, the dwelling place of Jay Smith and his crew, some of which, are among the extreme side.
Other than that, I talked with James White followers (not James White himself, I will probably get that chance soon), who also follow KJV-Onlyist, FLDS, Jay Smith, David Wood, etc. Wood's focus was primarily about manuscript and codex evidence.
So what I can ask you, regarding James White, you think it was right in his eyes to brush over the foremost command even saying things of it that it isn't in which people adhere to, which resulted in even other Trintiarians and even Non-Trinitarians to make a response?
1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:Isaiah 44, who is recorded as speaking in verses 21-28? Is it not YHWH?
verses 21-28 is regarding The Lord Redeems Israel.
I already know where this is going because I spoke about this before on occasion. You and I am sure some Trinitarians actually claim and or assume the words, "his Redeemer, Yahweh of hosts" means Yahweh's Redeemer is Yahweh of Hosts." Yahweh's Redeemer is then identified as by Trinitarians to be Jesus by an act of their own will and then they declare that Jesus is therefore being identified as "Yahweh of Hosts." The truth of the matter is - the Scriptural facts show that "his Redeemer" is a reference to Israel's Redeemer and Trinitarians are disregarding the contextual facts (with even cross-references that is regarding all in this passage), so we can discuss on that if that is the case.
The Lord Redeems Israel
outlined
Yah's/Jah's, Israel’s Repurchaser (21-23)
Restoration done through Cyrus (24-28)
[21] Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; I formed you; you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me. [22] I have blotted out your transgressions like a cloud and your sins like mist; return to me, for I have redeemed you. [23] Sing, O heavens, for the Lord has done it; shout, O depths of the earth; break forth into singing, O mountains, O forest, and every tree in it! For the Lord has redeemed Jacob, and will be glorified in Israel. [24] Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself, [25] who frustrates the signs of liars and makes fools of diviners, who turns wise men back and makes their knowledge foolish, [26] who confirms the word of his servant and fulfills the counsel of his messengers, who says of Jerusalem, ‘She shall be inhabited,’ and of the cities of Judah, ‘They shall be built, and I will raise up their ruins’; [27] who says to the deep, ‘Be dry; I will dry up your rivers’; [28] who says of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd, and he shall fulfill all my purpose’; saying of Jerusalem, ‘She shall be built,’ and of the temple, ‘Your foundation shall be laid.’”
That being said, I am still baffled on the whole something dead raising themselves of which is borderline undeath doctrine, to which that still needs explanation.
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@Ann O'Maly Thanks. This discussion though is all over the place even at the CSE.
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Israel is trigger happy. They sent in guys posing as women to take out someone they do not like and justify their actions when the latter was in defense, to use such force.
One of my sources had been stalked by Israelis when he was going there and leaving the country, which is crazy.
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@Outta Here There's this also
I had more from my older posts elsewhere, but I'd have to look for them.
Also what of hit heel bone also? This also gives people some food for thought in research.
This is The heel bone and nail from the Ossuary (chest box) of Yehohanan (Jehohanan in English), a man put to death by means of crucifixion in the 1st century.
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17 hours ago, Witness said:
I never said they were inspired! I am pointing out that they claim they are NOT inspired! YET, they expect obedience to every word that they “prophesy”.
And yet when it was coined you were quick to bring up the article that proved nothing of what was stated, moreover, you spoke of demonic inspiration. You had already pointed out the article before, pulling these 2 quotes to which Butler's reaction in agreement of same with Srecko, who in turn also posted this information:
- Wt. 1964/10/1 - "Those who do not read can hear, for God has on earth today a PROPHETLIKE ORGANIZATION, just as he did in the days of the early Christian congregation."
- Wt. 972/4/1 - "Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a 'prophet' of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record. What does it show?"
Which came after I stated the following: this is where you are twisting this, they never admit to being inspired prophets, and I am sure all the facts provided to you several times before thus proofs this point.
They admit to and made claim to simply being human, as with all of us, us of mankind, we are prone to making nonessential mistakes and errors at times, therefore not being an inspired prophet. They believe that, as a whole, as a community, and over the long term, has the guidance of Holy Spirit, but this does not mean that every step taken, every thought that comes to mind, every word said and or uttered of every member of their church will be perfect in these End Times. Early Christians, who were obviously guided by Holy Spirit, admitted as much about themselves. And yet these it is not unknown to anyone that today's Christians, imperfect as they may be, can profess about prophets who are indeed inspired, such ones like Jeremiah, who was indeed an inspired prophets of God to be far more correct than you, me and even that of Scholars.
17 hours ago, Witness said:Can’t you see the hypocrisy? The GB are “Israel”. God’s word is clear about prophets among His people, even those who “act like it”. And, if someone is “acting” like a prophet of God, but gives wrong interpretations, they are false prophets inspired by demonic utterances.
There is a clear distinction between a prophet who is inspired and a normal prophet. The most obvious different is a prophet who proclaims and ministers, one who is inspired, on the other side of the spectrum, a prophet who proclaims and ministers, who is spirit led. For Prophets such as Jesus, John the Baptist, Paul, even Agabus were all inspired and infallible. Christians today, who are prophets, of any kind are not inspired and are not infallible and such makes up the majority of Non-Trinitarians today, even to our counterparts who are the Jehovah's Witnesses. Us Christians are Spirit led prophets, the ability to spread the gospel truth and the truth about the Messianic Age, for this is something of which he both have in common.
An inspired prophet possesses the miraculous gift of prophesy, inspired and infallible utterance and predictions, as proof they are having the Holy Spirit, of which we can see with Elijah and Elisha - you also already mentioned Moses, who is an inspired Prophet who does indeed have the miraculous gifts. For this is 1 of 9 miraculous gifts that is of the spirit, manifestations of the spirit and is indeed infallible as can be read in the Scriptures itself 1 Corinthians 12:8-10, Luke 4:18 and Romans 3:1, 2 for example.
A normal, Spirit led Prophet who is clearly not inspired and not infallible have the gifts of the spirit regarding prophesying. It is regarded as dominant, the ability for one to profess in spreading the good news gospel of the Kingdom and the Messianic Age of the coming Christ, such of which gives evidence of the holy spirit's role as seen in Scripture, Matthew 24:14, Luke 4:18, Acts 2:18, 19 and Romans 12:6-8. Such ones with spiritual gifts have that is of what is cultivated, or cultivated gifts as some would say.
An inspired prophet's message is inspired, like that of a breathe of God himself, therefore infallible. God is the primary source of the message and the author of the message granted the Word came from him. The written work itself in it's original form is both sacred and inspired. As the verses,
- 2 Timothy 3:16 - All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
For prophets inspired by God have verbal communication through even that of angels, visions that puts forth God's message to those who hear it, they have dreams or night visions that is seen by them even in their sleep, and can convey a message even by means of a trance, other times through songs of praise that contribute to a prophet receiving communication that is divine (Exodus 9:1; Amos 3:3-8; Jonah 3:1, 2)
A prophet that isn't inspired and is not infallible in the message knows isn't the author of anything other than the Bible, they recognize that what they produce is of their own design but remain faithful to the Scriptures in of itself, this includes ALL Bible Translations because none of the translators or transliteratiors are not inspired, the very reason that most, if not all, tend to make revisions after revisions, example like you not knowing (but have used already) what the TR 1245 is and unaware that all translations, even that of JWs, have been revised, thus omitting anything related to the TR 1245, hence my clear view and adherence on Textual Criticism.
A not inspired prophet, or in this case, a normal prophet is encouraged by God's Word, if not, even moved by it. They show and express a genuine love for God and are moved to take action, just as those of old and our church fathers have. They are guided by God by means of influence and thinking, and our speech as with actions by means of the power of His Spirit and His Word, as can be evident by Matthew 13:11, 24:14.
17 hours ago, Witness said:Reasoning Book:
"False Prophets
Individuals and organizations (1) proclaiming messages that they attribute to a superhuman source but that (2) do not originate with the true God and (3) are not in harmony with his revealed will." Reasoning from the Scriptures p.132Please continue:
“At San Diego, California, there is a small piece of land, on which, in the year 1929 there was built a house, which is called and known as Beth Sarim. The Hebrew words Beth Sarim mean 'House of the Princes'; and the purpose of acquiring that property and building the house was that there are those on earth today who fully believe in God and Christ Jesus and in His Kingdom, and who believe that the faithful men of old will soon be resurrected by the Lord, be back on earth, and take charge of the visible affairs of earth. The title to Beth Sarim is vested in the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society in trust, to be used by the president of the Society and his assistants for the present, and thereafter to be forever at the disposal of the aforementioned princes on the earth.... It stands there as a testimony to Jehovah's name; and when the princes do return, and some of them occupy the property, such will be a confirmation of the faith and hope that induced the building of Beth Sarim. (Salvation, 1939, p. 311)
This was answered elsewhere and I will quote what was said about this, as the quote states:
QuoteOpposers of Jehovah's Witnesses have occasionally made references (most of the details being incorrect) to J. F. Rutherford and "Beth - Sarim" in an attempt to discredit the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. A look at the context and actual records would be beneficial:
The 1975 Year Book tells us that
"Brother Rutherford had a severe case of pneumonia after his release from unjust imprisonment during 1918-1919 because of his faithfulness to Jehovah. Thereafter he had only one good lung. It was virtually impossible for him to remain in Brooklyn, New York, during the winter and still carry out his duties as the Society's president. In the 1920's he went to San Diego under a doctor's treatment. The climate there was exceptionally good and the doctor urged him to spend as much time as possible in San Diego. That is what Rutherford did ultimately.
"In time, a direct contribution was made for the purpose of constructing a house in San Diego for Brother Rutherford's use. It was not built at the expense of the Watch Tower Society. Concerning this property, the 1939 book Salvation stated: `At San Diego, California, there is a small piece of land, on which, in the year 1929, there was built a house, which is called and known as Beth-Sarim.'" - p. 194.
By November of 1941 Brother Rutherford's condition compelled him to return to Beth-Sarim for his final illness. He died there January 8, 1942.
However, the Salvation book (written by Brother Rutherford) quoted above goes on to say:"The Hebrew words `Beth Sarim' mean `House of the Princes'; and the purpose of acquiring that property and building the house was that there might be some tangible proof that there are those on earth today who fully believe God and Christ Jesus and in His kingdom, and who believe that the faithful men of old will soon be resurrected by the Lord, be back on earth, and take charge of the visible affairs of earth. The title to Beth-Sarim is vested in the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society in trust, to be used by the president of the Society and his assistants for the present, and thereafter to be for ever at the disposal of the aforementioned princes on the earth. .... and if and when the princes do return and some of them occupy the property, such will be a confirmation of the faith and hope that induced the building of Beth-Sarim." - p.311.
Apparently Brother Rutherford had earlier written that he expected the return of these princes in the year 1925. I don't have a copy of that, but I see no reason to doubt it. Note, however, that Beth-Sarim wasn't built until 1929.
Money had been contributed for the specific purpose of "constructing a house in San Diego for Brother Rutherford's use" during his illnesses. The money, of course, could not be legally (or morally) used for any other purpose.
It's not surprising that in his book Brother Rutherford didn't care to detail these conditions which would have necessarily put his physical illnesses on public display. His decision to also dedicate this ground and building to those princes whom he truly expected to soon return is certainly understandable.
The fact that the princes did not return as soon as he expected was obvious even before Beth-Sarim was even built and certainly does not make Brother Rutherford a False Prophet.
17 hours ago, Witness said:Please, SM, stop being so narrow-minded, and protecting a leadership that comes as wolves in sheep’s clothing. False prophets demand obedience which the GB does. False prophets have lead many down the road of darkness and death.
It is not being of narrow minded, a narrow minded person will profess God sent Satan to the Egyptians, a person who does the research and understand the situation will never profess such a claim, let alone who who remains unaware of God's Purpose and Will, let alone what his own Son commissioned to Christians to follow.
The truth of the matter is they never claimed to be an inspired prophet and anyone who does the research can see that and it has been said, by them since the early 1880s.
That being said, I am well aware of who the False Prophets represent, who is of Babylon the Great granted I have been researching this for the longest time, what happened in various parts of the US and the World, I am aware of Lucis Trust and a list of other things that has been on a crusade of some sort to dismantle Christianity, of which is evident today. I am also aware of the E.I.I. the real enemy to me, to you, to John and even the JWs; and the difference between you and me is I do not take up conspiracy as truth, something you have been refuted on before.
If they are indeed lead to darkness and death, what of the current Jehovah's Witnesses here? Same community, same faith does not equate to all of them being 100% the same. you have some in the US that differ from each other, other elsewhere in France who differ, vice versa for other parts of the world. Every and each of them have what makes them happy, what makes them sad, even angry, what they like/dislike, what problems they have, what issues they have with themselves and or others, even shortcomings, the list goes on. Clearly none of them are shrouded in darkness, clearly none of them are advocates of death, for if they were, they clearly would not be here right now. And to subject a whole group, to demonize and attack them for what their community is all about due to the actions of a single person or a few is absurd, and you know that is right but you profess to the notion anyway.
My only issue is conspiracy and falsehood, at least next time do not make things one sided and take information from both sides which leads you to what is true and what is false, and in this case, no claim of being an inspired prophets has ever been made by them, no claim of inspiration has never been made by any current Restorationist who understand their apostolic roots, no Non-Trinitarian has ever and will never make the claim of being an inspired prophet - at all.
17 hours ago, Witness said:JWfacts.com has a very good breakdown of Watchtower leaders "acting" as prophets. Read especially, the 4/1/1972 Watchtower, “A Prophet Was Among Them” , highlighted in red.
Christians are like prophets even act as prophets. But they are not inspired prophets like examples we see in the Bible. The irony here is other sources are capable to make known, even recognize the differences in a Prophet who is inspired and infallible and a Prophet who is not inspired and not infallible.
I had already mention the 1972 response from you and Srecko. Most people, including you, who is trying to attack the Jehovah's Witnesses and profess to claim that you follow of them being false prophet will often use the April 1,1972 book by them, and they, indulging you, as it as proof regarding a prophet who is inspired and infallible. This is chosen because, in spite of a number of things, even in the face of evidence, it is the only one such ones like yourself they can find where it seems to say that Jehovah's Witnesses consider themselves as inspired prophets. But like I said before, they never made the claim at all, for if they had indeed made the claim clearly the response would have been different, but in reality, what I say to you is the truth of the mater and unlike you I am not weaving things as you have done now and before.
Further evidence even tells you that in the 1880s-1890s that they, and I quote [We have not the gift of prophecy] and [Nor would we have our writings reverenced or regarded as infallible] Which is both indeed true because today's Christians are not like inspired and infallible prophets of old, moreover, the only thing inspired when it comes to the message is God's Word, spoken through the bible, and the Bible was just a translation of God's message, but God's Word is sacred and infallible.
An even older claim, 1870s
[We do not object to changing our opinions on any subject, or discarding former applications of prophecy, or any other scripture, when we see a good reason for the change,—in fact, it is important that we should be willing to unlearn errors and mere traditions, as to learn truth.... It is our duty to "prove all things."—by the unerring Word,—"and hold fast to that which is good]
But as we can see, again I profess, that they never really claim to be an inspired prophet, to add more fuel to the fire, that article from their book does not bring forth claim of an inspired prophet, but rather, what Christians consider themselves to day, just simply prophets who profess the gospel and speak of coming End Times and Tribulations, as with the Messianic Age.
Another factor is those who are also neutral with the Watchtower and understand the history of other faiths, including the one professed by the Watchtower even make this known:
- http://pastorrussell.blogspot.com/2009/02/no-claim-of-inspiration.html
- http://pastorrussell.blogspot.com/2008/07/seeing-onself-as-victim-denied.html
17 hours ago, Witness said:"The prophets prophesy falsely, And the priests (non anointed elder body who have replaced God's anointed priesthood) RULE BY THEIR OWN POWER; And my people love to have it so. But what will you do in the end?" Jer 5:31
Do not add a quote into the text you are speaking about, for if you have, do so in a separate response after mentioning the verse, otherwise this is a total disrespect to the verse of which you are conveying, and it falls under Deuteronomy 4:2 regarding adding to God's Word.
The verse says this
- Jeremiah 5:31 - the prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests rule at their direction; my people love to have it so, but what will you do when the end comes?
It is a cross-references to Jeremiah 14:14, Lamentations 2:14; Ezekiel 13:6 Isaiah, 30:10 and John 3:19.
A prophet, Christians today profess the good news gospel, they profess the Messianic Age and they give warning of God's Day being near. Such ones are spirit led and they take example of actual inspired and infallible prophets of old, and they recognize that they, today themselves, are not inspired and infallible and would never make that claim to be such.
A false prophet will speak of such ones as them claiming to be inspired, to which they are not, reasons so because they seek to slander someone, even call them demonic. They will go above and beyond when there is unfounded prophet of their claim. A honest and reasonable man will see for themselves what is being spoken of as either true or false.
For just like in Prophet Jeremiah’s day, many people chose to remain to do things that is not of God while others do the opposite. For such ones they love slander and dishonesty, as with anything brazen under the sun, something of which that is not different in our day.
So who is the slanderer in this sense in this claim of inspired prophet claims - you or them?
14 hours ago, Witness said:I must add, being "spirit-inspired" is the result of an anointing. Holy Spirit is poured into one's heart. Rom 5:5 It is alive and active and "inspires" one to understand Christ's truths. 2 John 2:2; 1 John 2:20,27 Holy Spirit "inspires" others to recognize truth when they hear it from one Jesus' sends. John 13:20 For the GB to claim they are not inspired also shows they no longer have Holy Spirit within them, if anointed. 2 Tim 3:5 They are ignorant of its power, but are well versed in "inspiration" coming from a demonic spirit. This is how lies are generated and lies are laced through the teachings of the organization. Their is no other word for false/failed doctrine, but "lies". And lies have no origin in Christ, who is only light. 1 John 1:6;
Then what is it that is stopping you from understanding a prophet who is not inspired and not infallible compared to a prophet who is inspired and infallible?
By definition, you yourself is also a Prophet, clearly not inspired, clearly not infallible, this also goes for all JWs, even to us Biblical Unitarians. Non-Trinitarians are not inspired nor are they infallible nor are they ignorant of the holy spirit because know what it means to be spirit led, they know what the spiritual gifts entail regarding a prophet, be it a sole person or those who make up a group.
And this claim of yours, demonic spirit one should not be too quick to call someone of demonic influence.
Understand the difference next time, and I did see where you pulled that information, the same source that is making claim to an inspired prophet when evidence shows this isn't the case.
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51 minutes ago, Anna said:
What if.....
But what if the simple reason is that as we learn new evidence for things we grow in knowledge and so we are able to correct previous ideas? I agree, perhaps some of the mistakes are because of the influence of Satan, because he does not want anyone to know the TRUTH, but for me (at least) the important thing is that the fundamental truths remain he same. Those are the important truths and they are very simple. The rest is just "frills" (like frilly petticoats on a dress). If we get some "frills" wrong then to me it is not really important.
For example in this particular discussion: Knowing whether Jesus died on a cross or died on a stake is just "frills", the important fundamental truth is that we do not use whatever object is was in worship, because that is idolatry.
Pretty much Restorationism to the roots. You learn and apply just as the church has done in the past.
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6 hours ago, Equivocation said:
Tell me about. Ever had a guy threaten you with a Machete up close, moving about in a sword dance like fashion? Believe me, it took some time to calm the guy down because he came talking about things he read online and painted a crazy picture of us in his head.
Some brothers and sisters get it bad, even back in the day during the 1940s some were hunted in the same sense the KKK hunted African Americans. I believe one brother had been cut in a way that part of him had been removed.
Even today it is bad and for some brothers and sisters on the other side of the globe it is far worse.
I think the guy was tarred and feathered, be it him or someone else, another male, one of which got a part of reproductive organ removed. Trying to keep it PG here, but what I am referring to starts with a "T".
An angry mob burned over 2,500 JW churches, elsewhere 1,500 JWs attacked in 300 communities, others being ran out of town with an infamous quote "They're traitors; the Supreme Court says so. Ain't you heard?"
Shawn Francis Peters Judging Jehovah’s Witnesses: Religious Persecution and the Dawn of Rights Revolution (Lawrence, Kansas: University Press of Kansas, 2000) pg.84.
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@Srecko Sostar Nothing of which you posted even states the claim of inspired prophet. The constant flailing coupled with the rehashing of what was already posted does not do much in your favor.
Therefore, the claim of inspired prophet remains unfounded. You wouldn't catch a Non-Trinitarian say they are an inspired prophet anywhere.
Also it shows you clearly do not know the difference between a prophet and an inspired prophet - that is rather telling. That alone tells you were you sit in regards to Spiritual Wisdom.
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This is tragic. This is coming from someone who got into Spider-man and X-Men when I first came to America as a child. The concern also prior to his death, there was talk about mistreatment and a woman trying to get money from him back in April I believe regarding sexual assault. The man has already had issues with his greedy daughter and a list of other things, but what kept him going was his fans.
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10 hours ago, Anna Rajala said:
So Mexicans are cousing you trouble.
The Caravan consist of other immigrants so not only Mexicans. On the other side of the spectrum, Trump was to send out military force to deal with them should they get near.
Why a great war is inevitable
in Topics
Posted
@Kosonen China was never an ally of the US, they side with Russia and their faction and the US has their own faction with secondaries who support them. A Great War will not begin with China because the political theater masks who is the starter of the fight and it is not them. A clue in regards to the Globalist Mafia would be present day Israel, granted their actions have proven their resolve time and time again and of whom supports them. Babylon has already issued a conquest for peace, and a conquest for security, of which originates with that of the US and their allies, in turn, Russia and as well as China are not a fan of it, nor is Iran, hence the two factions and there are things to which remains unknown to such ones, perhaps even you, but those who seek the truth, those who are like truthers, know what is actually going on.
That being said, it is best to be vigilant and to do research in this matter. It is best to know who is side China is actually on and who will be the very ones to throw the first punch and who shall deliver.