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Foreigner

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  1. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to JW Insider in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    No. It's just me. Just so we're 'on the same page' about what the WT says on the subject. (Because we are on a JW forum.) Whether it's right or wrong or somewhere in between can be discussed later. Also, to provide a bit of 'methodology' about how the WT handles prophetic interpretation.
  2. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to JW Insider in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    Regarding the Watchtower's interpretation, a simple and recent explanation is found in the introduction to a 'life experience' article from 2012. https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20120415/Seventy-Years-of-Holding-On-to-the-Skirt-of-a-Jew
    When I was in my early teens, two Bible passages struck me. Today, over 70 years later, I can still remember the time when I grasped the meaning of Zechariah 8:23, which speaks of “ten men” taking hold of “the skirt of a man who is a Jew.” They tell the Jew: “We will go with you people, for we have heard that God is with you people.”
    THE Jewish man symbolizes anointed Christians, and the “ten men” represent the “other sheep,” or “Jonadabs,” as they were known back then. * (John 10:16) When I understood that truth, I realized how much the fulfillment of my hope to live forever on earth depends upon my loyal support of the anointed class.
    Jesus’ illustration of “the sheep” and “the goats,” found at Matthew 25:31-46, also deeply impressed me. “The sheep” picture those who receive a favorable judgment during the time of the end because they do good to Christ’s anointed brothers still on earth. As a young Jonadab, I said to myself, ‘Len, if you want to be viewed by Christ as a sheep, you’ve got to support his anointed brothers, accepting their leadership because God is with them.’ That understanding has guided me during more than seven decades.
    I should note that a few people have come to think that the March 15, 2015 Watchtower indicated that there are no longer any specific classes of people that are identified by prophecies. So they might wonder why the Jew represents anointed Christians and the 'ten men' specifically represent the 'other sheep.' That 2015 article, and this new understanding, was really intended to help us avoid the problem of arbitrarily making up specific applications of interpretation for every Bible parable and historical occurrence, and saying it was the ONLY correct application. Prophecies (like Zechariah) are still considered fair game for interpreting specific applications to classes of people today.
    (The Watchtower makes exceptions, and still uses the parable-as-prophecy motif for the "sheep and goats" parable, and, of course, the "faithful and discreet slave" parable. There is one other possible parable-as-prophecy exception, but this one is in a prophetic book, Daniel 4's tree dream parable/prophecy.)
    The idea of only using a historical occurrence in the Bible to only say it "reminds" us of a certain thing, rather than "it must represent this particular thing" was used in the same life experience article mentioned above. For example:
    . . . she gave me the parcel and left. It contained a warm overcoat. Her loving gesture reminded me of Hannah bringing her young son Samuel a coat while he was serving at the tabernacle.—1 Sam. 2:18, 19.
    And again at the end of the article:
    Just before his death, Jesus told his disciples: “You will not always have me” with you. (Matt. 26:11) We other sheep are also aware that we will not always have Christ’s anointed brothers among us on earth. I count it, therefore, an inestimable privilege to have been closely associated for over 70 years with many of the anointed—gratefully holding on to the skirt of a Jew.
  3. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to JW Insider in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    The NWT says at Zechariah 8:23:
    23  “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nationsj will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe* of a Jew,* saying: “We want to go with you,k for we have heard that God is with you people.”’”l
    I have noticed that one poster in particular has referenced this scripture several times and put it in the context of being able to identify the true religion at the time of the final judgment. The poster admits that in the meantime, he can't really tell who that "Jew" represents. But it is evidently associated in his mind with a group of "truly anointed" persons. By this he evidently means those who are truly led by the holy spirit, who are truly motivated by the holy spirit, and who therefore give proper guidance and to others. They should be giving always healthful, if not "perfect" spiritual food, and always at the proper time.
    For that particular poster, this disqualifies the eight or so men who currently claim to be the "faithful and discreet slave" since they admit that their food is not always perfect (and therefore could not qualify as "at the proper time," either.)
    When a verse from the "OT" is not specifically repeated in the "NT" with an explanation, we are pretty much on our own to decide whether it has a specific prophetic application to our own day, or to the near future. In many cases the verse will look quite specific, but we can only give it a general application to our own day. In other cases there are specifics, and we can try to make specific applications to those specific references.  Of course, in every case we could look to the overall situation, the historical context, and find either warning examples, teaching examples, or encouragement in the words (2 Tim 3:16,17).
    In this case, the historical context is an audience of Jews having trouble getting up the willingness or courage to overcome obstacles related to rebuilding their temple. Some of those obstacles were economic (including bad harvests) and some of it was the fear of encroaching enemies, and more populous nations around them. And some of it was no doubt an overall despondency that it would take too long and never get finished, and thus be a wasted effort. Those kinds of issues are easily generalized into our own personal issues with respect to overcoming obstacles related to our own spiritual goals. They can also be looked at in terms of our willingness to be involved with organizational goals or congregational goals when economics, delays, mistakes, and the despondency of others can take a toll on our own courage.
    But what about the Watchtower's usual interpretation of this verse? Is it definitive? Can it mean anything else? These are the kinds of questions that Christians should always ask of everything we believe, if we want to be like the Beroeans, or "make sure of all things."
     
  4. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to JW Insider in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    Thanks. I almost gave you an upvote, but I'm always afraid that a few seconds later a cartoon might show up in the same post that I just can't upvote in good conscience. And yes, if you're wondering, it's because the movie "Deliverance" was rated R.
  5. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    I do appreciate it JWI, when somebody else does the "heavy lifting", in Scriptural analysis and good ol' common sense. I am 72 years old, and I find I do not have the patience. 

  6. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to JW Insider in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    Actually, this was easily and immediately proven to be a complete lie. Pathetically, you had to repeat this particular lie over and over again, each time with exactly ZERO evidence of any kind.
    [ftwpiynp]
  7. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    ... forget what I said 'bout regaining your sanity, Billy.

    Would I be an apostate if I told you that the original Paradise was the Garden of Eatin', and what made it a Paradise is that they had pizza delivery?
  8. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    My mother was cooked in a crematorium, 1200 degrees for three hours.
    She made an ash out of herself!
    Lighten up Billy ... you may even regain your sanity!  You will certainly be a lot happier, and more pleasant company!
  9. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    You can't fix stupid ... even with Duct Tape ... BUT WITH DUCT TAPE YOU CAN MUFFLE THE SOUND !
  10. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    There was a strong odor,  where I could smell BillytheKids46's mother cooking in the kitchen.
    There was a strong odor where I could smell,  BillytheKids46's mother cooking in the kitchen.
    There,  was a strong odor where I could smell BillytheKids46's mother,  cooking in the kitchen.
    Where you put commas are important!



  11. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to Witness in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    @BillyTheKid46   You believe I'm "pretending" to be an anointed one.  Yet, you fully swallow whatever the GB tells you about themselves.  I'm sure this is because I refuse to obey them and their lies; lies not only about themselves, but about applying the teachings of Christ.  Remember when you said just recently, "I bow down to no man"?  Well, so also I do not bow down to any man; including any who desire to control my spirituality.  That is between me and Christ; not 8 men who feel they have been given authority over anointed individuals, or ANY individual.  And many of these people want to serve the Father and Jesus Christ.  It matters not if you believe that I am pretending.  I answer only to Christ, who is my Head.  Eph 5:23
    Then the high priest rose up, and all those who were with him (which is the sect of the Sadducees), and they were filled with indignation, 18 and laid their hands on the apostles and put them in the common prison. 19 But at night an angel of the Lord opened the prison doors and brought them out, and said, 20 “Go, stand in the temple and speak to the people all the words of this life.”
    21 And when they heard that, they entered the temple early in the morning and taught. But the high priest and those with him came and called the council together, with all the elders of the children of Israel, and sent to the prison to have them brought.
    But when the officers came and did not find them in the prison, they returned and reported, 23 saying, “Indeed we found the prison shut securely, and the guards standing outside before the doors; but when we opened them, we found no one inside!” 24 Now when the high priest, the captain of the temple, and the chief priests heard these things, they wondered what the outcome would be. 25 So one came and told them, saying, “Look, the men whom you put in prison are standing in the temple and teaching the people!”
    Then the captain went with the officers and brought them without violence, for they feared the people, lest they should be stoned. 27 And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest asked them, 28 saying, “Did we not strictly command you not to teach in this name? And look, you have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this Man’s blood on us!”
    29 But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men.  Acts 5:17-29
    You will find a similar scenario happen when an anointed one teaches in the name of Christ Jesus, and not in the name of an organization.  Your "high priests" condemn any preaching that doesn't include "organization".  They cannot handle "New Jerusalem" within the anointed ones,  (1 Cor 3:16,17) to be filled with doctrine other than their own.   Rev 13:16,17
    I am very grateful that I have been released from WT's prison of false authority.  Col 2:8
  12. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to JW Insider in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    When you don't reference the sources you copy from, you make it difficult to see the actual questions you are asking and separate it from the material you are merely copying. In this case, it's probably obvious that most of what you copied can be found, verbatim, in the New Oxford Annotated Bible as can be found here, on page 1363: https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0190276061
    Other parts you copied can be found verbatim: here, the ESV Global Study Bible: https://books.google.com/books?id=unuwCAAAQBAJ
    and/or here: the Scofield Study Bible -ESV found here: https://books.google.com/books?isbn=0195278755
    So "what fundamental aspect could be drawn" is the fact that you copied from some commentaries and references. Based on some ideas you mentioned before, I would therefore guess that this was done for reasons you already outlined here:
    I assume, then, that you thought that by merely copying a few commentaries, unattributed, that it would make this look like a well-researched academic site, and that it was intended to impress. Since there was nothing of your own in any of that, I assume you also thought that you were using the understanding in these commentaries as a kind of crutch to avoid expressing your own personal understanding.
    Then, you did finally add a question of your own, although it makes no sense as a serious question the way it is currently worded. You probably left out some words.
    So, going back to some other things you've said on this topic, I assume you might be confused as to what the Watchtower is trying to relate. I say this because the Watchtower has been very clear and simple on this topic, and was quoted here very clearly. Yet, you indicated you didn't realize it was the correct Watchtower explanation, and you apparently thought it was misapplied, as you said in a previous post on in this thread:
     
  13. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to James Thomas Rook Jr. in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    Don't wait for "the situation to be right", TTH, take control!
    You could skulk around college gymnasiums, and find the loners and nerd types, even better if they are nerdy loners ...  and offer them beer if they will study the Bible with you,  and try to form relationships. I understand that college kids like beer.
    If a college is too far away,  perhaps you can start earlier at Elementary Schools.
    Offer them candy. I understand kids LOVE candy.
    In the current social environment, what could go wrong?

  14. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to Witness in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    You absolutely don't make sense.  I gave you the link from the JW website that shows what Watchtower has taught about the Body of Christ - that it is comprised of the anointed ones.  Today, in word, (maybe in print also) they teach differently than what they have written in their publications in the past.  They speak out of both sides of their mouth and you are choosing their most recent LIE.  Why would I chose to follow the GB's twisted path?  Why do YOU?  Their teachings are blaspheming the Holy Spirit.  They are no different than the Pharisees - a brood of vipers.  Matt 12:34  If you could only see how confused you are by following these men.  
  15. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to JW Insider in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    I simply quoted the Watchtower where it stated the following:
    *** ws16 January p. 21 par. 4 “We Want to Go With You” ***
    This means that the Jew is not just one person but represents the whole group of anointed ones.
    I never used the term "remnant" although I did reference the "anointed." I believe you already understand the reason for the somewhat different uses of these terms in our publications.
    Thanks for saying you want to get it right. This is not just about my opinion, though. I am happy to express my own opinion,  even if my own opinion differs somewhat from the Watchtower's explanation. But this was also a case of wondering why John seems so sure that this verse cannot refer to any group like the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses. It's almost as if he is sure that somewhere there is a truly anointed person, or group of such persons, who it should be obvious that we should be following. Perhaps they don't exist yet, in John's opinion, or they do and they are just difficult to find among all the "noise." 
    We can get to all of this, but I had a few other follow up questions for John, for which I had hoped to get his range of opinion first on what the verse could mean. I wondered just how different John's expectation (for others) would be from the Watchtower's explanation. For example, isn't it possible that John might see it possible that there are several different religious groups each focusing on a different kind of ministry. Some might be doing great work in helping people understand certain important doctrines, but make mistakes in other areas. Perhaps there is a very good religious-based ministry that does an excellent job pushing for legislative reform, religious institutional procedural changes, and general social reform in CSA matters. Would he expect that group to also teach the correct view of Trinity, Hell, Neutrality, etc.? I'm wondering just how "perfect" he would expect any human religious organization to be if it were to specialize, say, in pushing sound Bible doctrinal reform. John has actually said enough already so that I realize I don't need to ask him all the questions I had wanted.
    My own opinions here are somewhat separate. Although on the matter of Zechariah 8, I think that chapter really does provide an excellent and important image for us to remember about our own attempts to make converts to true Christianity. Jesus gave the illustration that just like a tree is known for its fruits, we would also attract persons who want to join our particular Christian brotherhood. Also, we know that 'by this people will recognize if we are truly Christ's disciples, if we have love among ourselves.' It reminds us that converts aren't just made from a door to door ministry. Just as an example, the Seventh Day Adventists started out similarly in time to when the Watchtower organization started out, yet they have no specific door*to*door focus, and have grown to nearly 20 million adherents. JTR has mentioned something similar when he says that if we are really doing something right, and are blessed by Jehovah for it, we might expect people to knocking on our door instead of the other way around. (This is not an argument that the SDA's are doing it right and we are doing it wrong.)
    On these additional issues about my personal views and opinions about other sheep, great crowd, remnant, body of Christ, anointed, etc., I have already begun answering, and I'm sure you will find plenty to oppose.
  16. Confused
    Foreigner reacted to Srecko Sostar in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    You concluded how Pope's motive was bad. Still we have open question: Do you need to be inspired (or motivated) by God in collecting holy manuscripts/copies and in decision to make Holy Book with this collection?
  17. Haha
    Foreigner reacted to TrueTomHarley in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    I’m just sitting here minding my own business, thinking up new insults for The Librarian and our “house” discreet slave, JTR.
  18. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to Witness in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    You must be talking about the GB as the “faithful slave” sent by God.  Can you actually prove to me that God has given these men to us to follow?
    Did Jesus ever lie?  If he sent anyone in his name, and told them to “remain” in him because without him they could nothing, would they lie or would they speak the Word of God, which is truth - always?    He is the way, the truth, the life.  Would those he sends teach any sort of doctrine that failed or had to be totally discarded with a new one?  How many times has doctrine flipped from one belief to another, and many times a new belief is actually one from years past, in the step of doctrinal change?  John 15:4,5; John 14:6
    To say that the leaders of the WT are led by Holy Spirit calls Jesus a liar; subsequently, it calls the Almighty God, a liar.  The only one who can take a lie and soften its blow with the insulation of false promises, by calling it a “belief clarified”, is Satan, who “inspires” those who seek out his earthly gifts. 2 Cor 11:13,14
    Anyone can see these things if they choose to.  It depends on one's heart’s desire to find those who speak pure truth from Christ.  Within the organization are hundreds of anointed ones who are silenced.  That should ring a bell with all JWs, that something is amiss in the Watchtower.    If one of those anointed speaks up about teachings that conflict with WT doctrine, and is heard, I guarantee they will not survive inside its walls.  That is the sign of a wicked slave in power.  Matt 24:48-51
    Jesus spoke up for truth against the power and teaching of the Pharisees.  Shouldn't every one of us speak up for truth, regardless of who has placed authority over us?  
    "Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 35 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life (through disfellowshipping) for me and for the gospel will save it.36 What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? 37 Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 38 If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”  Mark 8:34-38
    I am not ashamed to speak up for Christ and truth.  I, and so many others, have done so.  As scripture points out, your wicked slave cannot tolerate being called a liar.  Rev 13:11,14-17
    It is a ruse, set against the anointed under the "woman" New Covenant, during these last days.  I wish all of you could see this.  Rev 12:15; 2 Thess 2:9-12;1 Thess 5:3   
    Matt 13:36-43
     
     
  19. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to Witness in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    On whether an anointed one is inspired, I just though I'd comment.  All anointed ones are inspired by God’s Spirit.  It is how they are “called” when anointed.  Eph 2:20; 4:4,7,8,11,12; 2;6; 4;8     They could not be the “dwelling” of His Spirit without such inspiration. 1 Cor 3:9,16  Whether they facilitate that gift by obeying the Spirit’s direction, is up to them.  Isa 64:8; Matt 25:1; 1 John 2:20,27; 1 Cor 10:12; Rev 2:5
    Anointed ones can lose God’s Spirit and acquire the spirit of Satan by falling out of their promise with God, and entering a pact made with the Liar.  From them, come “demonic expressions”; exhalations of spirit from Satan. Isa 28:15,7,8   So, anointed are either inspired by the Spirit of truth from God and Christ, or by the spirit of lies from Satan.  It isn’t obvious by the way they look or what they accomplish in this physical realm, but by what they teach.  Matt 7:20  For the GB to say they are not "inspired" by God's Spirit, is in actuality, in my opinion,  a true statement.
    Inspired by God’s Spirit:
    Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. (“congregations”)   You will be brought before governors (GB) and kings (elders) for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; 20 for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.  Matt 10:16-20 
    Inspired by Satan’s Spirit
    1 Tim 4:1,2 - Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron 
    2 Pet 2:1-3 - But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber. 
    Rev 13:11 - Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; it had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon.
    Rev 16:13,14 - And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth (Rev 1:5; 5:10) and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
    The conflict between both:
    Eph 6:10-13 Finally, become strong in the Lord and in the might of his strength.  Put on the full armor of God, so that you may be able to stand against the stratagems of the devil,  because our struggle is not against blood and flesh, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the world rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.  Because of this, take up the full armor of God, in order that you may be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand.
    Satan attacks us "in the evil day" of Armageddon (Rev 20:7-9)  through inspiring those who buy into his lying offers of authority and power, which is enacted over the "kings of the earth", (those under the New Covenant Gal 4:22-24,26) and all those with them.  Luke 4:7; Rev 13:5-7; Rev 12:15
     
     
     
     
     
  20. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to JW Insider in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    I'm not sure why you think it's such a big deal to repeatedly say there is no academic understanding here. You began repeating that idea (under other names, I think) when someone implied that it would be OK to make longer quotes from other sources for education purposes, based on common practice for commentaries on other person's writings  under 'fair use' law.
    But that's not what this is about. It's been a common practice of yours to sometimes just dump a bunch of commentary from various places, but without any comment of your own as to whether you think it even applies to your own view or someone else's view. Often it is contradictory to the Watchtower's view (as it was this time), which is why I think you either hadn't even read it, or at least why you didn't comment on any of it yourself. It seemed pretty academic, but you didn't give a source for any other readers here, who might not have been able to tell whether it came from a Watchtower source or a Christendom source or some other academic source. And for someone who is bent on repeating there is no academic understanding here, it makes no sense that you had just done this earlier in this same thread with the words:
    Of course, you didn't give any reference or attribution to that either, and you were addressing someone else, not me. And by the way, I didn't just automatically know where the references came from; I had to look it up.
    I didn't sidestep the questions, I only indicated to you why the questions, as stated, didn't mean much of anything. As a reminder, here were the questions I "sidestepped":
    In between those two questions, you merely copied information from "Christendom's" commentaries without any context. Those don't even sound like legitimate questions to me. They sound like questions from someone trying to imitate post-modern pretentiousness and who thinks vagueness sounds impressive.
    Wow! And did anyone mention your propensity for projection?
    Your resources did not agree with the Watchtower's view. You yourself have seemed to question the Watchtower's stated view on who makes up the Body of Christ, or else you just wanted to be disagreeable. Your own questions and statements often sound something like this:
    BTK: Why do you say that only the anointed are in the Body of Christ? That's untenable and seals your fate as an apostate! Response: But the Watchtower says that only the anointed are in the Body of Christ and I believe this is correct. BTK Then why do you say the anointed are not in the Body of Christ? That's untenable and seals your fate as an apostate! I don't see how I have failed to see that I copy/paste from Watchtower literature. I actually show the reference each time to show exactly where I copy/pasted from, and to make it clear that I am posting from Watchtower literature. See the difference?
  21. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to JW Insider in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    Thanks for explaining. This was the impression I got from you, and it was reinforced with this other idea that you conveyed: that since the scriptures were only written to and for the anointed, we must take a kind of 'sit-and-wait' attitude until it becomes obvious who they are. You also have said that you think the end will not take place before the end of your own lifetime, an idea probably also partly based on the fact that no group of anointed has yet become so obvious in our day that '10 men are taking hold of them' because they can see that God is with them.
    One reason I responded with an entire thread on this was because this overall idea seemed too passive. It really would lead to the idea that unless some group of truly anointed were making it extremely obvious that they were right in some inspired kind of way, then all of us can just sort of wait until that changes. But Jesus seemed to say that preaching and converting others through making disciples of him was going to be the way in which this message about God and his Kingdom through Christ would reach to the ends of the earth. To me that seems quite different.
    Also, just my opinion, but I don't think we need anything except to keep our eyes open and see the works of various Christian brotherhoods to know whether or not Jehovah's spirit is acting upon them. By their works you will recognize them. It's not that works result in our salvation, but that the "works" of the spirit result in "love, joy, peace, patience, etc., etc." If our hearts desire Christian association with loving, peaceful, patient persons, we would find such ones to associate with. The nuances of doctrine (like "who is the Jew with the 10 men at his robes?") is completely unimportant. But a doctrine of peace that results in them not going to war with each other would seem quite important. Personally, I would not wait for a group that explains Scripture better than the next group. That has always just been a "sub-religion" much like the philosophies of the Greeks that they thought was real wisdom.
    Scripture is already there for us. We don't have to understand it any further than what was already put there. In our hearts we know enough about Jesus parables just by reading the overall message. We have no further need of prophets, and voices, and tongues, and inspiration, because Jehovah has already put the basic message in our hearts from what inspiration has already written. This is one of the reasons that the book of Revelation was almost voted out of the 66 book canon. It was written in such a way that it took away from the idea that we need nothing further to be written to us (by future interpreters). Yet even this book exercises the depth of our Christian faith if we remember that it should not distract from the idea that the end could come at any time, and that we are not waiting for specific events to happen, but that it can happen at any time. 
    On that topic, remember that Jesus said the end could happen at any time, and it would be a surprise, as if without warning of any kind. Of course, he also made it clear that it could happen at any time immediately after the Roman armies sacked Jerusalem, which basically happened in 70 CE. Your own view makes it easy to put this off, by waiting for an additional sign. Paul did mention an additional sign prior to 70 when he said that we weren't waiting for a group of semi-inspired anointed to watch for, but that there would be a semi-inspired powerful force that would have to come first. This kept the Thessalonians from getting too excited about the end coming when 70 CE had not even come yet.
    He told them that we needed nothing to be written to us about the times and seasons of the parousia because it would come as a surprise, like a thief in the night, even though we are "awake" enough so that it will not overcome us as victims the way a thief overcomes his victim. He reminded the Thessalonians that people could be taking note of peace and security, and therefore it would be a complete surprise. But he also told them to prepare for the possibility that they would sleep in death before Jesus returned. But that semi-inspired or pseudo-inspired powerful force to watch for apparently turned out to be the many anti-Christs that John spoke of in his letters. Paul had put it in "apocalyptic terms" and I think the book of Revelation even more so:
    I'll end on this because it's long, but I think it's curious that Paul's only warning sign prior to the parousia was about a man of lawlessness (the apostasy already at work) and a counteracting force of restraint that was almost out of the way. (This was apparently the apostles, but some could argue that it extends to our day as the apostleship continues to be represented by men governing the congregation.)
    (2 Thessalonians 2:1-12) . . .However, brothers, concerning the presence [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you 2 not to be quickly shaken from your reason nor to be alarmed either by an inspired statement or by a spoken message or by a letter appearing to be from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here. 3 Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you, I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is acting as a restraint, so that he will be revealed in his own due time. 7 True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way. 8 Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence. 9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness. John, possibly the original apostle by that name, apparently outlived the year 70 CE, and he still says something similar, but his solution is that all of them were anointed and all of them therefore have no need of someone or some group to continue teaching them, because the anointing itself teaches all of them the truth.
    (1 John 2:18-27) 18 Young children, it is the last hour, and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared, from which fact we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But they went out so that it might be shown that not all are of our sort. 20 And you have an anointing from the holy one, and all of you have knowledge. 21 I write you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie originates with the truth. 22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Everyone who denies the Son does not have the Father either. But whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. 24 As for you, what you have heard from the beginning must remain in you. If what you have heard from the beginning remains in you, you will also remain in union with the Son and in union with the Father. 25 Furthermore, this is what he himself promised us—the life everlasting. 26 I write you these things about those who are trying to mislead you. 27 And as for you, the anointing that you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to be teaching you; but the anointing from him is teaching you about all things and is true and is no lie.. . .
  22. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to JW Insider in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    I definitely agree with that. No matter how sure I might sound, I am just giving an opinion on what I believe a Scripture might mean. Even if I don't have any doubts about it, it doesn't make it true.
    And that too. BTW, it's this tendency to conflate "inspired" and "anointed" that made me think you might have thought that the GB ought to be "inspired" in some way even though they have clearly said that they are not. I know you have never said it that way, but you have made previous comments that make me think that you believed a TRUE "faithful and discreet slave" should "in effect" be inspired in some way. You have said things like the following:
    I probably read too much into it.
    I personally do not think of the Governing Body as "THE faithful and discreet slave." I don't think anyone, or any particular identifiable group is "THAT slave." It was merely an illustration that showed how some Christians might be like that good slave, and some might be like this other bad slave. In fact, Jesus gave many more examples of how the slave might be bad than might be good. I think that Jesus gave the illustration, not to create a hierarchical group that might try to "lord it over" their fellow Christians, or try to be "governors of their souls" or "guardians of doctrine." I think Jesus knew that most Christians, imperfect as we are, would strive to do good and probably fall short many times. Jesus is already identified as the "One Governor" of our faith, and he told us not to follow those who want to be called Leader, Father or Teacher. We can find many different teachers under many different circumstances in our Christian experience, and we can try to be one of those many teachers to others, when called upon.
    I think Paul dealt with people who looked to men (like Paul, Apollos, and Cephas) to be their Governing Body, or other superfine apostles. But Paul spoke out against the idea in several ways, even though Paul himself really was a "guardian of doctrine." Here are some excerpts from the entire chapter of 1 Corinthians 4, where we actually find some  comments about supposed "faithful" and "discreet" "stewards" and the idea of "lording it over others" which is exactly what Jesus' illustration warned against:
    (1 Corinthians 4:1-21) . . . A man should regard us as attendants of Christ and stewards of God’s sacred secrets. 2 In this regard, what is expected of stewards is that they be found faithful. 3 Now to me it is of very little importance to be examined by you or by a human tribunal.. . . the one who examines me is Jehovah. 5 Therefore, do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes. He will bring the secret things of darkness to light and make known the intentions of the hearts, and then each one will receive his praise from God. 6 Now, brothers, these things I have applied to myself and A·polʹlos for your good, that through us you may learn the rule: “Do not go beyond the things that are written,” so that you may not be puffed up with pride, favoring one against the other. 7 For who makes you different from another? Indeed, what do you have that you did not receive? If, in fact, you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not receive it? 8 Are you already satisfied? Are you already rich? Have you begun ruling as kings without us? I really wish that you had begun ruling as kings, so that we also might rule with you as kings. 9 For it seems to me that God has put us the apostles last on exhibition as men condemned to death, because we have become a theatrical spectacle to the world, and to angels and to men. 10 We are fools because of Christ, but you are discreet in Christ; we are weak, but you are strong; you are held in honor, but we in dishonor. . . . 14 I am writing these things, not to put you to shame, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15 For though you may have 10,000 guardians in Christ, you certainly do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus, I have become your father through the good news. 16 I urge you, therefore, become imitators of me. 17 That is why I am sending Timothy to you, because he is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord. He will remind you of my methods in connection with Christ Jesus, just as I am teaching everywhere in every congregation. 18 Some are puffed up with pride, as though I were not coming to you. 19 But I will come to you shortly, if Jehovah wills, and I will get to know, not the speech of those who are puffed up with pride, but their power. 20 For the Kingdom of God is a matter not of speech but of power. 21 Which do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a rod or with love and mildness of spirit?
    To me this sounds like a commentary on the parable itself. It contains the idea that some would want to beat their fellow servants. They would want to take matters into their own hands before the Lord comes in his due time. Some would be puffed up and wish to begin ruling as kings (governors). These human tribunals (governing bodies) are considered unimportant to Paul. They are trying to judge matters before their time. They are drunk with power, puffed up with pride. Not even the apostles look for "honor" or present themselves as "discreet" and yet these persons want to present themselves as discreet (wise). So Paul sends people to them (like Apollos and Timothy) who are NOT at all like that, people such as Timothy who follow the mild and loving methods of Paul, who will treat them like a father admonishes beloved children. And as far as "guardians" Paul says that they may have "10,000 guardians" not just 8 or so. 10,000 was on the order of the actual number of Christians in the Roman Empire at that time, according to Acts.
    Now most Witnesses probably think about the GB as exactly the kind of loving admonishers that Paul and Timothy and Apollos must have been. So this should not be taken as an indictment of the idea of a Governing Body. But I understand some of the problems you have with the Governing Body and their claims.
  23. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to Witness in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    Attitude? Finally understanding?  Gossip?  Unchristian Conduct?
    It is unfortunate, but you are a very confused man. 
  24. Downvote
    Foreigner reacted to JW Insider in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    I've seen a lot of love and long-lasting friendships. I've seen some awful things too, and heard about many more. But the congregations I have been in over many years (from age 0 to 66) have had very few of these problems.
    I thought there had not been any cases of CSA in any congregation I had personally been in, but there was a huge commotion at a recent funeral of a local elder when several tales of his abuse were exposed by family members for the first time AT THE FUNERAL itself. Several (including me) were shocked and surprised.
    But this is far from the norm. I've worked in the sound "A/V" booth at many assemblies/conventions since I was a teenager, and have made friends from all over the world. Then, when traveling, I have often met up with these friends. Perhaps I assume that this has been the norm for most Witnesses.
    I know that there has been a trend toward more problems, although that's also just my opinion. But I hear about more problems and also see attendance down in several places.
    We'd all like to see CSA eliminated from everywhere. I don't believe that we will ever be immune from problems the rest of the world has. But I'd hate to think that it's just as common with us as it is in some other religious institutions. But I don't blame the two-witness rule for the crime, but I do blame it for the slow wheels of congregational justice. And who knows? I think people like Raymond Franz had a chance to fix that part of the problem much earlier, and yet he was evidently blind to it.
    I have a feeling that both CSA and shunning will both be "fixed" to the best of the organization's ability from a procedural/rules perspective within a couple of years. It will still happen, of course, but the policies will be adjusted to conform to something more loving. I heard a well known brother in a responsible position at Bethel say that there were only two things that needed to change to nearly remove all the "deserved" animus against us: our shunning policy and our blood policy. He thought both of them should be changed for scriptural reasons. I'm sure he hadn't realized how big the CSA problem would be when more fully exposed.
    Local squabbling will always be a problem when brothers see titles as positions of "power" for their ego, instead of opportunities to serve one another more efficiently. I've seen a share of it, and assumed it didn't happen as much elsewhere. I was in a place to hear some yelling and screaming back in the 70's and 80's at Bethel, and a friend tells me that he thinks all the GB get along very well, but that the "helpers" have been known to squabble loudly. Perhaps some things are worth squabbling about. (and most things probably aren't) The apostle Paul speaks of such things even in his own life as a Christian.
    Well, you probably know that I don't try to defend everything that's wrong, and I think that everything that's wrong should actually be exposed in the city gates. Exposure actually reduces bad behavior. I've seen it happen directly a few times. Perhaps even bad doctrines and bad decisions and bad policy can be revisited if enough people raise questions publicly. I heard a brother in the Writing Department say that he'd like to see all the things fixed right away that Raymond Franz exposed, and he lamented that some would not be easy to fix. But many of them have already, by now, been fixed.
  25. Like
    Foreigner reacted to TrueTomHarley in Ten men out of ... the nations ... will take firm hold of the robe of a Jewish man   
    This never happens. Everyone who is an elder remains an elder unless some are seen to no longer qualify. Judging from what you have written, that would have been the case where you hail from.
    It often takes a big blowup of some sort because elders are like people anywhere—they tend to give others the benefit of the doubt, disinclined to judge the “straw” in their brother’s eye, on account of the “rafter” in their own. It is not an easy thing to delete a colleague or to persuade one to step down in the absence of some big blowup. In times of great blowups, it sometimes takes a circuit overseer or two to sort things out.
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