Foreigner

They say "Distance makes the heart grow fonder",  and your being at least three States away from North Carolina is an idea that warms my heart.
So .... per your statement quoted here, who have you actually threatened?
 

Well Billy, I am actually glad you asked that specific question:
(Remember "Specific", the Ocean West of California ...)
The answer is .....
No ... the reason is very clear to EVERYBODY ... except you.
You are a chronic, and continuous slanderer and liar, with delusions of scriptural grandeur, who continually attacks others without provocation .... so when they RESPOND with pointing out you goofy logic, virulent hatred, and insults ... it is ONLY self defense on their part.
You are chastised and threatened with banishment because you are a colossal pain in the butt.
Others are not chastised as they are merely defending themselves FROM you, by pointing it out .... which everybody realizes .... except you.
All that being said, you may in fact be a much better JW than most here, including myself .... who makes no claim whatsoever of being a "good" one.
You are still my Brother, but you scare the hell out of me ... in a nice, long distance way,  of course ... bless your pea-pickin' heart.
 
 

What you get from other peoples' input is not only astounding, ... it's truly stunning.
I am stunned that you are giving advice that I am no God, and that I am trying to give the impression of  a Trinity.
How you get these ideas may be of serious concern.   THAT one was a certified Doozie.
That was as strange as your accusing me of hiding behind an avatar, when it is you that are doing that.
..... I think I have you figured out, Billy.
You are projecting who you are, which you view with revulsion and contempt ....  onto everyone else.
 

This quoting of myself is the basis of why I rationally and deliberately choose to be who I am ... the fact that it drives you absolutely insane is merely an added bonus.
Meanwhile, you are hiding behind your fake desperado cowboy uniform.

From your nebulous general response, it seems clear that you think the word "Specific" refers to the Ocean West of California.
 
 
Well, BillyTheKid46, (who is NOT really who you are) ... I suppose we will just have to "agree to disagree".
I do try to be a good Jehovah's Witness ... but nobody that has ever met me has yet accused me of being "Brother Watchtower".
For me, that is a badge of honor.
.... but then again ... I am a Barbarian.
The major "take away" point is this:
I DO NOT WANT TO BE, AND DO NOT TRY TO BE.
( For the logical, reasonable, and rational reasons I stated on this thread, several posts before this posting, which I am re-posting below, as I know you will misconstrue the points, anyway .)
 

BillyTheKid46:
There is something despicable about a man who weaponizes Scripture to try and intimidate others, for his own aggrandizement.
That is who you are, Billy, clear to the bone.
Your logic and reasoning is SO FLAWED, you think you can compile ONE of anything, in a nebulous foggy cloud of thought, and make assumptions about everything else.
Just FYI, I have had sustained discussions about my philosophy with an Elder Body in the past, in fact, several Elder Bodies in different congregations all over the country, over the years ... but my being a Barbarian means that I ignore  uninspired, and error ridden  Organizational pontification..
Been there ..... done that. 
I make them mad, and they make me sad. 
We're even.
If I am wrong about any subject ... I of course have to pay the price for being wrong
If THEY are wrong, I STILL pay the price, in full,  for taking their bad advice,  and they pay no price whatsoever.
... and so far, my track record is light years better than theirs about being right on matters the Bible does not speak about, and about 50/50 in things it does speak about.
... and as far as confessions go ...... as far as I know, the Watchtower has only apologized ONCE since 1870 ... for screwing up peoples' lives.

When the Body of Elders assembled to interrogate me asked me specifically what my views of the Governing Body was, about a year and a half ago, I replied:
"I will have to agree with what they published in the February, 2017 Watchtower ... that they are neither inspired, or infallible" .
The Coordinator said "Oh yeah, I remember reading that ... "  The other two Elders looked at him in astonishment, as  they had not, or did not remember it.
They could not release me from "ROOM 101" fast enough.
Several years before that I had a body of elders surround me in an aisle way at the Kingdom Hall, after the Watchtower Study,  and I could no escape them without pushing one or more aside, and one asked me without any preamble whatsoever, what I thought of the Governing Body.  My reply was spontaneous and instantaneous:
"I do not think of them at all!"
They left me alone after that. .... until "next time".
 
 

You are AGAIN guilty as homemade sin of what you accuse ME of ... the irony is so thick you could cut it with a knife.
My name here is EXACTLY as shown on my birth certificate, my home mortgage, my Publisher's Record Card, how I am known in the Congregation ( ..actually, casually it is Tom Rook ...), my driver's license and my US Passport..
Again you have condemned yourself with your own words .... unless you really ARE BillyThe Kid46, and that's what is shown on your birth certificate, how you are known in your Congregation. and that is what is shown on your Driver's License, etc.
 
Every posting you make you shoot yourself in the foot ... AGAIN.
Part of my being a Barbarian is that I find it all very, very funny.  Like watching a Daffy Duck Cartoon where it is Duck Season and he gets his face rearranged continually from being shot.
Or as Daffy might say .... "He's Dispichible!"
 

I keep no secrets, Billy ... everything I do is open and "in your face", as I care nothing about any consequences ... mainly because I do not actually stick burglars' heads on a pole in my front yard, even though the idea does appeal to me.I
I asked you to specifically to enumerate the horrors you accuse me of, and you choked, and replied with irrelevant gibberish.
I was giving you an opportunity to PROVE you are not a slanderer, are not a liar, and not delusional.
You failed to do any of those things.
You stand convicted by your very own slanders and lies against me as a bitter, irrelevant agenda driven Watchtower policy wonk, as well.
Exactly what I would expect from a Greek speaking Watchtower Lawyer, or lawyer wannabe.
You know why Watchtower Lawyers can swim in the Atlantic Ocean without any fear of being eaten by Sharks?
.... Professional Courtesy.
 

O.K. , I will bite ... pray tell what you perceive  Billy OH Billy, as my Bible lawbreaking.
Hmmmmmm?
Many dozens of times I have admitted on this forum of being a Barbarian, but that is more of a cultural thing ... so you probably have quite a list that would justify such serious and profound accusations.
Please be specific.
And to show you are NOT delusional, please prove it, and provide scriptural backup.
I await your scathing specific condemnations.

Billy .......
I think the proof that you are delusional rests in the rambling epic tome you just posted, with the expectation that not only anybody would read it in its entirety before falling asleep at the keyboard, or that anyone who did manage to stay awake would facepalm slap their foreheads in realization and exclamation " WOW! He has a POINT!"
It COULD be salvaged, if someone was paying you by the word .... and I am sure they would take your word for how many words you could bill for, rather than be forced to read it.
I would read it through, if you could keep it short.
VRERRY short.
........ like ... one or two paragraphs short.
 
 

If I have an opportunity to share truth, I will.  I know you are not the only fish in the pond who comes here to read.  Matt 13:47-50
Besides, wasn't it you who kept asking me questions and resurrecting a recent thread?  
 

Maybe you were, maybe you weren't.  Just in case you were...
 What I “preach” about concerns the condition of “craftiness” that you and the anointed ones live under.  Personally, I feel relief knowing that I can now approach God and Jesus without anyone telling me how to do it.  This is what God wants for us, an authentic personal relationship with Him and His Son.  It's called stepping out of the darkness and into the light of Christ.  John 8:12; 1:4,5; 2 Cor 4:6; 1 Pet 2:9
My disfellowshipping was a spiritual “killing” for “apostasy”.  I was told if ever I changed my mind, I would be considered for reinstatement, which is such a laughable proposition.  I would be reinstated into an organization.  I would not be "returning to Jehovah" because God and the organization are two different entities.  Isa 46:5  One, is a practicing lie under the presence of the “man of lawlessness”. Matt 24:15; 2 Thess 2:3,4  It is a "god of fortress" set up by a "king" who rules over spiritual Zion, the true Temple of God.  It is a "god unknown to his ancestors", that "he will honor with gold and silver, with precious stones and costly gifts."  Dan 11:38
The organization is the "different" Beast, that arises to trample the anointed ones. God's chosen people have never had to face anything like it, until now.    Dan 7:7; Rev 13:1,2,7  It holds authority over the "saints"...and you.  
If you would just open your spiritual eyes…
2 Thess 2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us— (apostles, with whom many JWs compare with the GB) whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. (1914) 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness  is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, (the anointed ones 1 Cor 3:16,17) proclaiming himself to be God.
God's Temple is not "Jehovah's spiritual temple", otherwise known as the organization - that "different" Beast.  It is in the hearts of the anointed ones.    1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22
5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.
 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie,10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. 2 Thess 2:1-12
Before God's people have ever suffered destruction, He revealed His message to His servants and sent them to warn His people of their pending doom. 
 “Surely the Lord GOD does nothing, unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets”  Amos 3:7
These servants were considered the one's telling the lie by the majority of the people. They were viewed as crazy, with a message of little use.  Think of all the prophets God sent and the people's reactions.  
"They say to the seers, 'See no more visions!' and to the prophets, 'Give us no more visions of what is right! Tell us pleasant things, prophesy illusions.'"  Isa 30:10
Revelation is a book that God reveals to His servants (the anointed ones) who care to heed it's message.  Rev 3:18  It is a warning message concerning the sins of God's holy people, just as He has made known when His people fell into sin throughout the ages.  Rev 1:1 
Your leaders offer you a spiritual paradise of peace and security. This is their "prophetic" message. Jeremiah dealt with this same issue among Israel.
"The dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious.  "Peace, peace", they say, when there is no peace".  Jer 8:11
Look around you, can't you see there really  is no peace in the organization?  It cannot save you from the nations as God did for His people when they obeyed His directions.  Isa 48:18   If you had eyes that were open to the sins committed by God's people you would see the lie for what it actually is.  You would understand that you "serve the lie."
Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.  1 Thess 5:1-3
By the way, God doesn't choose the prominent ones to get His message across.   He chooses the despised ones, those least expected to carry His message.  1 Cor 4:13   But, of course, those who are despised are viewed as the haughty ones, while those who are held in "high esteem", get away with murder.  Gal 2:6; John 16:2-4; Matt 5:11,12; Rev 13: 11,12,15; 11:1-3,7-10
I am not surprised at what you think about me.  I also am not surprised at how you value the GB who have successfully pulled the wool over your eyes.  Matt 23:12
 
 
 
 

Yes, I do, and so do elders and others I have spoken with.
This may have been a reality, but not because the elders were known to be doing so, but rather because no one believed they really were doing it. If it was a victims word against an elder, the elder's denial may have been believed over the victim. Big difference.
 
Yes, it was possible because of same answer as above.
You have already forgotten that no one ever said that cases of child abuse were lies by apostates. What has been said is that apostates say that we do not care about child abuse, and that is a lie. Again, big difference.
What I actually said was that no organization purposefully condones child abuse.

Oh dear poor billy is throwing his rattles out of his pram again, poor boy is having another tantrum.
Go to the top of the page billy and read what it says and stop making yourself look so stupid. 
JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES OPEN CLUB. 
Can we get one thing straight. This is a JW forum. This forum is about JW Org and how it is run / controlled. 
Get a life billy, go and have a coffee or something. 
 
 

@TrueTomHarley  "No, John, you are reaching for straws, trying to manufacture a “reality” that does not exist. "
Um, well I've just given an example that it does exist Tom. 
And investigations are now going on in many countries so it may show that it has existed even more than you like to think. 
Cases have been going to court for a few years now, it's not exactly new news.
And if you read @JW Insider comment you may notice why the higher ups 'appear' squeaky clean.  But it seems you need to serve your GB and it's Org so you are blinding yourself to reality. So be it Tom but I think you will have to face the truth one day. 

Quote  JW Insider  "Also, in general, I think the evidence is strong that the higher up a person is in the organization, the more he has been protected from scandal, because that scandal was thought to reflect so badly when it is someone known by all the Witnesses of a specific country or, at least once in the past, even internationally..... " 
@JW Insider Thank you for a very well thought out and sensible comment. Very balanced. 
I particularly liked, and laughed at, this quote above. You are not really''fanning the flames' of my thoughts though as I've felt that it was that situation for a long time. Even the GB may have skeletons in their closets. 

Yes, I believe there have been a few. I don't want to give the impression that I think this happens often, or as much as so many ex-JWs and previously abused Witnesses seem to imagine. I have just recently read a couple of statements by activist ex-elders who have sat on judicial committees for several years in their congregations and never personally encountered a case or accusation of child sexual abuse. (I'm responding as if you said "on a repeated basis" rather than "on a regular basis" since the term "regular" is open to interpretation.)
I answer your question to the best of my ability however because I believe this is one of those terrible things that, if true, MUST be exposed so that more of us are alert to the potential extent of the problem. Things done in darkness must be brought to light, no matter the pain and embarrassment to the organization. After all, it's not the organization's fault that these men exist; they bring reproach upon themselves. It's this old belief that they are bringing reproach upon the organization that has led to *a few* amazing cover-ups by "organization men" who thought they were doing the right thing.
However, before responding, I just recently read through a private discussion from a person who says he is now ready to go to the police, now that he has completed collecting a lot of evidence and speaking with corroborating witnesses. (Not to his own abuse, but to other persons abused by the same elder.) He knows his case is strong, but he believes the status of the accused will make it difficult to get very far based on the way that other victims of the same accused have been treated. He already brought his case to the elders a few years ago, before the most recent reporting arrangements were consistent. So he wants to have done all the due-diligence before presenting his accusation to authorities.
Also, in general, I think the evidence is strong that the higher up a person is in the organization, the more he has been protected from scandal, because that scandal was thought to reflect so badly when it is someone known by all the Witnesses of a specific country or, at least once in the past, even internationally. That said, I only know about three cases, in three different countries, that would fit this criterion. Two of the accused brothers are now dead. I have been told about a few others that I am too skeptical to believe, although I might be ready to add a fourth name to my list. (A circuit overseer who was finally disfellowshipped for homosexual behaviour with JW and non-JW "young men" and who, according to his wife, continued with non-JW "young men" after he was DF'd.) The length of time it has taken for several elders' cases to finally be settled, after other accusers come forward, over a several-year period, is also circumstantial evidence that most elders never really knew how to handle such cases in years past. This lack of consistency can easily allow for "abuse-of-power" cases to be swept under the rug. But it doesn't prove that these types of cases were rampant.
Of course, there is a wide range of activity that has been lumped into the term child sexual abuse and some of this activity on the more violent end of the spectrum would be expected to produce immediate discipline. What were considered lesser crimes were more easily dismissed or rationalized away. But, of course, as this thread has pointed out, (in the past especially) many of the vulnerable persons in the congregation were never warned if the elders were assured that true repentance had taken place after a disciplinary period, no matter how bad the crime was.
I am very happy for the more explicit correction in the recent Watchtower that can help change the "culture" about where the reproach really lies.

No Tom it was not what i was implying at all. Anna seems to to have a vivid imagination.
Maybe my wording wasn't as it should have been or maybe English English is different to American English, or different to the American way of thinking. 
I was not suggesting that JW Org was a porn ring in disguise, though it is possible that there could be small porn rings within the JW Org Earthwide.  After all it has been suggested that some people join the JW Org for just that reason, to abuse young children.
However back to what I was saying originally. I will reword it.
Original comment : 
Do you believe ANY of the cases, from ANY country in this earth, that say an Elder was allowed to keep his position and status and his conduct was kept hidden, so he was able to abuse more children or abuse the same child on a regular basis ?
Revised comment : Do you believe any of the cases of child abuse within the JW Org, from any country in this earth ? Do you believe that any of the Elders that did continuously abuse children in the JW Org were known to be doing so ?  Do you think it was possible for those Elders to continue to abuse children because they were allowed to keep their position as Elder even though it was known they had abused children in the past ?  OR do you think that every complaint against every Elder concerning child abuse, is a lie by apostates ? 
TTH I don't expect you to answer any of these questions, but Anna might  as she seems to think it involves her. 
As for Anna's comment : " You, as a reasonable person, and I am assuming you are reasonable, has to see that no human organization (unless it is what I mentioned) will knowingly and purposefully condone child molestation."
2 Kings 16 v2.
Aʹhaz was 20 years old when he became king, and he reigned for 16 years in Jerusalem. He did not do what was right in the eyes of Jehovah his God as David his forefather had done. Instead, he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, and he even made his own son pass through the fire, following the detestable practices of the nations that Jehovah had driven out from before the Israelites. 
2 Kings 21 v 6 concerning Manassah 
 6  And he made his own son pass through the fire; he practiced magic, looked for omens,m and appointed spirit mediums and fortune-tellers.n He did on a grand scale what was bad in Jehovah’s eyes, to offend him.
But of course JW Org is much better than the Nation of Israel    isn't it.  Or maybe not .................
 

This may have been a reality, but not because the elders were known to be doing so, but rather because no one believed they really were doing it. If it was a victims word against an elder, the elder's denial may have been believed over the victim. Big difference.
Thank you @Anna  I rest my case. 

Quote @Anna Most churches separate kids from the parents. It is JW kids who stay with their parents all the time.
Your JW 'world' must be totally different to the JW 'world' I knew.  Children were always sitting with different people, in fact if a family had lots of children then their children could be spread all round the KH, each child with a different person. It was seen as being helpful to the parents, so that the parents 'could actually get some spiritual food from the meeting'.  The parents had to gather up their children at the end of the meeting, which was never easy as the children used to 'go a bit wild' in the hall after the meeting was finished. Must have been around 30 to 40 children in my ex congregation. One family had seven children and they never all sat with their parents through public talk and W/t.   
 
 

Hate to say it, but there are a lot of single parents, especially sisters, who ask for elders/ms to study with their young children for them. And it still ends up as part of the process for making sure a youngster is ready for baptism. The "rule" is to always have a second person along or have the parent sit in. But this doesn't always happen. But it doesn't even raise the slightest concern for most brothers and parents because we trust one another and can't imagine that anything wrong might be going on. So the sister/parent who is supposed to sit in will go off to the kitchen and make dinner or take an important phone call. (Seen it happen personally.) The adult brother (or sister) who was supposed to join the study will cancel at the last minute. (Seen it happen personally.)
But the perpetrators of these crimes end up being people we would trust with our lives, persons we could never imagine doing anything like this. In fact, TRUST and confidence is a necessary part of the equation. This is one of the reasons I don't think any of us should hold back in letting parents and other children know the horror stories that have happened in the next congregation in our circuit, or among persons at some of the highest levels of organizational responsibility. We don't censor "adult" parts of the Bible for our young ones, so why should we "censor" practical warnings of real lurking dangers that could be around them?
I know of no current cases, but you would evidently be surprised at some of the terrible things that have been known to happen. In the past, where the "notoriety" had been thought to be limited to the victim, victim's immediate family, and fellow elders (or fellow circuit overseers, or higher) there have been cases (I now know of two, but wouldn't be surprised at greater numbers) where the perpetrator was simply moved to a place, new circuit, or new country, where that elder was no long in contact with the victim or victim's family. Elders in the new congregation were sometimes not told at all. In fact, the person might have simply risen in the ranks again from circuit to district overseer, for example.
I believe that it is now extremely unlikely for this to happen again.

It is true, that there are churches with "Sunday school" for children, happening while the parents are attending services.  Although, as a Catholic that was never the case for my years growing up in the religion.  However, even though children remain with their parents in the kingdom hall, abuse has taken place during the meeting, in the restroom.  

You were probably the only one to create that assumption from what I said. And I don't actually believe that even you really got that impression from what I said.
Strangely (or perhaps not so strangely) you were the only one to make such a sick and provoking statement out of what I said.

Billy showing true colours i see. He says he's the 'only one in a den of thieves to speak out' yet he still hides behind his cowboy image. I thought Billy the Kid was a thief actually  
But more importantly it seems that after twelve months (well it seems that long) I'm actually reading some sensible balanced comments about 'my main issue' (as TTH loves to call it) .
Thank you @JW Insider for opening up the can of worms that most JW's want to keep shut. 
And if anyone thinks I'm rubbing my hands with glee, no I'm just a little relieved that some truth is now coming out. 
 

I don't know of any cases like that, but I do know (personally) of one prominent, influential elder (no longer living) who was removed as elder because of notoriety, but remained a pioneer. I don't think today he would be pioneering.