Foreigner

Criticise away Kid you know you love it.  I'm sure we can all take it. 
Do all your pedophile Elders and congregants think they are Christians too ?  And all those that worship your GB, do they think they are Christians ? Get real Kid, see the truth in all of it.  Come down out of the clouds. 

Alastor Wiggins, the world champion one legged tap dancer who had his wooden leg completely eaten off by woodpeckers?

JWs tend to strive to become "star pupils" of 8 men who have gained control over "Bible teachings", a term you have used.  They have gained control over all JWs as their head; yet, only Jesus is our Head.  I would hope each JW would become a star pupil of Jesus Christ.  Matt 20:25-28; 1 Cor 1:12,13   If that was the truly the desire of a JW, it would not be long before one would realize that the "turf" he or she was once defending was based on the teachings of men other than the teachings of Christ.  Under those circumstances, one becomes a defender of truth in Jesus Christ.  

@TrueTomHarley TTH, the man who writes books and makes fun of everyone else. The man who thinks he can just brush over everything and everyone by his stupid remarks. Make people laugh then they will forget. 
Is that the latest idea from the GB ? Grow up Tom. Take on some responsibility, you are 'supposed' to be servant of God after all.  
Well you probably think you are. But you seem to lack patience and self control. Very picky in what you will watch and listen to and read. 
So how do you learn anything ? By only reading the things which you feel will please you ?  A bit unbalanced ?
But then it seems JW 's have to be unbalanced to stay in the Org without knowing the truth about it. 

I have nothing against nice accommodation.
Think, about giving Vow of Poverty for living inside modern building that cost millions of $.
Those who living and preaching in poor countries are closer to such Vow, i think :))

And  I used to think that people invited to Bethel were spiritually mature. Now it's a kindergarten is it ? 

The rumor about "higher-ups" is not directly related, but it was related to the "gifts" of prime cut steaks that were sent periodically from Watchtower Farms to Brooklyn. These were never served to the Bethel family, but I knew one of the cooks who was sworn to secrecy about who got them and how often. There are always perks in any organization for those at a certain level of responsibility, and this was not a "Governing Body" thing. It was more of a long time seniority thing, which will necessarily (sometimes) overlap. Since these steaks were served semi-privately as specially cooked meals, they could be served with alcohol, but some brothers were said to have already served themselves alcohol before coming down to get their meal. Certain brothers became known for this behavior, even to the point of using very foul language to the cooks and waiters. If you want to keep a secret the last thing you want to do is curse out a cook or a waiter
My my, it gets even better.  Imagine telling all this to a new bible study. 
But of course everyone is equal, oh wait a minute we have 'higher ups' getting prime steak, served privately. 
After all 'There are always perks in any organization for those at a certain level of responsibility'. 
And brothers are all loving and kind and very spiritual at bethel, oh no there are brothers that get drunk and swear at the cooks and waiters. 
It's shows itself as being just another big organisation with those at the top living off of those at the bottom. 
No wonder the GB do not receive God's holy spirit. 
 
 

Why not ask Brother Morris, then the issue is resolved.
Everything else is just embarrassing!
April 19th is our MEMORIAL ceremony ❤ ♥ ☼ ♥ ❤ 
Thank you....

Quote @JW Insider Drinking stories were always rampant at Bethel. There were always stories of higher-ups getting drunk, but this was likely fueled by younger Bethelites who were looking for excuses for their own behavior. The cooks who worked an after-dinner late shift only available to "higher ups" had the most consistent stories, but I still saw signs of exaggeration. But I have seen young Bethelites get drunk, and it was shameful and embarrassing. (For some 19 and 20 year olds, Bethel would have been their first real experience with alcohol.) I have seen housekeepers gathering liquor bottles from rooms and the sum total would have surprised anyone. I was sometimes surprised that people were periodically sent home for stealing and immorality, but never (that I knew of) for excessive drinking.
I don't even have to go looking for faults in the Org. People seem quite happy to reveal the faults on here.. It's kinda funny then that some folks say i have an agenda.    Drunks in Bethal, shows the lack of spiritual wisdom doesn't it ?  Where is God's 'guidance there ? 
As for the GB pretending to be 'poor', i bet they have country mansions for summer holidays  
 

Is it my Imagination or does the reflection from the 5th from Blue Label upper bottle show Witness dead drunk passed out on the floor?

Nothing specific enough to be of interest to anyone looking for gossip. I think most people know that young Bethelites got in all sorts of trouble. For a few months under Knorr, there seemed to be someone sent home for 'conduct unbecoming a Bethelite' every week, sometimes two or three on the same day, and sometimes more than once in the same week. But this was when Knorr was handling the "morning worship" every day in 1976 and a bit of 1977. After Knorr was too sick, the daily text "morning worship" rotated and I never remember anyone else announcing dismissals, except maybe Milton Henschel when he wanted to make a point about the specific type of misconduct. Knorr was always very specific and it became counsel for the rest of the family, even if it took the form of a long rant that could even make you late for work.
So what I meant was that I never remember Knorr berating anyone for drunkenness or dismissing anyone for it. The dismissals that came afterward were not announced to the whole family so I have no idea what most of them were for, unless there was a clear rumor to go with it.
Back in those years almost everyone could still drink at age 19, and there were only a few 18 year olds on construction and painting crews mostly. It wasn't until 1984 that all states went to 21. But there was a time when it was easier to buy liquor in NJ (and they moved the age down from 19 to 18 in 1980). Some Bethelites would take trips from NY to NJ to stock up and then bring it back to share (or resell) to others.
Drinking was much more common than I expected, but I am not trying to give the impression that there was rampant drunkenness. It's just that you could tell that some young brothers were away from their families for the first time, had a measure of independence and privacy at Bethel, and there were several obvious mistakes made. The parties in some rooms made worldly neighbors complain from a couple of the buildings nestled in between apartments that the Society did not own. I knew a Bethelite who got in trouble for this, but he was not sent home.
The rumor about "higher-ups" is not directly related, but it was related to the "gifts" of prime cut steaks that were sent periodically from Watchtower Farms to Brooklyn. These were never served to the Bethel family, but I knew one of the cooks who was sworn to secrecy about who got them and how often. There are always perks in any organization for those at a certain level of responsibility, and this was not a "Governing Body" thing. It was more of a long time seniority thing, which will necessarily (sometimes) overlap. Since these steaks were served semi-privately as specially cooked meals, they could be served with alcohol, but some brothers were said to have already served themselves alcohol before coming down to get their meal. Certain brothers became known for this behavior, even to the point of using very foul language to the cooks and waiters. If you want to keep a secret the last thing you want to do is curse out a cook or a waiter.
Anyway, the basic idea, which I could not say because I don't know, was that Knorr knew that some high-seniority people had been known to misbehave in this area, and it might have produced some leniency when younger ones had this trouble.

I am inclined to adopt the philosophy of Tarzan of the Apes, on vigilante justice.   One night Tarzan was perched in a tree, watching a tribe below, and one man was awake,  tending a giant stew pot that was cooking the bodies of a neighboring tribe that had lost a battle, and Tarzan drops silently to the ground, and from behind lifts the cook by his ankles and sticks his head in the boiling stew, and pushes him in.
Although Jehovah God has never expressed any prohibition against cannibalism,  Tarzan reasoned that  even Great Apes (his family) did not eat each other, and neither should men.  He obeyed the dictates of his NATURAL conscience, as created by author Edgar Rice Burroughs.
The idea of taking someone back to "white man's justice". was totally foreign to Tarzan.
Perhaps that is why the Society discourages education and reading anything other than it's own publications.
Yet, on reflection, many, many dozens of times I have refrained from killing someone who SERIOUSLY needed killin'.
I wonder if that makes me "more theocratic" ... or just a wimp.

Oh what a laugh you two give me. 
SM. Quote "Christians will always be a primary target ... "   You are totally missing the point here SM. 
It may not be Christians that it is aimed at, it could well be Pedophiles that are hidden in the JW Org by their GB. So it might be aimed at the whole JW Org which supports the pedophilia within it. 
And Kid. Quote "How do 2 wrongs make a right? "  They don't. Just like pedophilia is wrong and so is hiding it in the JW Org.  Two wrongs.
And again quote " These actions are not with a set of moral code, but rather the actions of hateful and deranged mind orchestrated out of HATE, nothing more. " 
So what is pedophilia the actions of ? Where is the moral code of Elders that rape and sexually abuse young children, sometimes even their own children ? Those elders and other pedophiles in the JW Org must have deranged minds. 
Maybe the GB and Bethal 'bosses' also have deranged minds, reading all the reports about sexual abuse of children and not reporting any of it the police or authorities. 
Maybe this destructive action was done by those who have been abused and families of those abused. 
I wouldn't do it, but everyone is different. 
You have to remember how long pedophilia has been going on in the JW Org and also other forms of abuse in same. And the hurt that shunning causes, and being disfellowshipped for no good reasons. 
Please don't 'kid' yourself that this is anti-christian, when it's more likely anti-pedophilia and anti-GB / Elders actions. 
Or do you think it is coincidence that it is happening at the same time that JW Org is being investigated Earthwide. 
 
 

Now is this an attack on the 'serving of God' side of the religion, or, is it an attack against the Child Abuse side of the religion ?
The JW Org is now in that unfortunate position of not knowing. It would be so easy for them to say that it is persecution of the 'true religion' and coming from the devil etc..... 
But in fact it may be because of all the media news Earthwide about the Child Abuse within the JW Org. 
It would be good if the attackers would give reasons for the attacks. 
By the way, i don't think this is good news. I don't agree with this type of destructive and dangerous action. I don't agree with violence or anti social behavior. I hope all the people are ok and it would be good to think that all the Elders are doing shepherding work to look after the 'flock'. Older congregants and maybe even some young ones may be frightened by it all. 
 

@BillyTheKid46 Yes. Meanwhile, you have people will speak of global warming and climate change, and at the same time they ignore recent events concerning such, for example, glaciers in Greenland, while on the other side of things you have people at NASA in a situation such as this:

 
That being said, there is always something about global and climate change when it is concerning the powers that be, and those who think they know such things without doing a little bit of the research show themselves unaware of things.

Billy ..... you are the best I have ever seen at misapplying whatever anyone says.   You take someone's key words and misapply them to  fit your own agenda.
("Something missing from that fantasy of 283 million years of evolution....")
In this case, the word "erosion", which you have mentioned several times, and has NOTHING to do with this conversation.
This is a COMMON problem of ALL agenda driven thinking processes
I said the piece of petrified wood I have is 283 million years old ... NOT that mankind was 283 million years old.
When your ENTIRE thinking processes are controlled, governed, and shaped by AGENDA ... you can ignore a billion and more tons of HARD EVIDENCE.
Agenda driven thinking ALWAYS results in theocratic hallucinations.
Add that to negligible reading comprehension, and you live in a cartoon world, untouched by tawdry or magnificent reality.

I guess I really have egg on my face now. Right?
At least I didn't interpret it as the result of Billy the Kid's six-shooter, and a quick draw with exceptional aim.

I will mention this before @JW Insiderdoes:
This is a self-help website that you have taken your drawing from. (Imagine him thinking it is eggs!—what on earth is wrong with him?) It is on the downside of overthinking, of not being able to mentally shut off.
Do you have that challenge, Billy, of not being able to turn off? 
If so, you have plenty of very good company.

Um..... the more I think about this, @BillyTheKid46....
Who’s associating with apostates, you or me?
Oh, yeah, Witness, who loathes the theocratic organization and regulary posts scurrilous items in hopes of pulling people away from it and will do so until the day she dies. Witness, who finds some devilish thing that she thinks can be twisted into stumbling loyal friends and drawing them her way. Witness, who monitors all the derogatory websites to throw out the most powerful anti-JW slander that she can find,    and what is your reaction....even after the subject has been more than adequately covered?
Let’s forget that JWI has reassessed how he is going to interact here, and has said he will do a 180 in matters that may affect the brotherhood in ways he did not intend.
Nah, who cares? “Let’s go back to that dung that Witness brought up! Let’s return to the vomit and talk about that!!!!”
Who’s associating with apostates now?
Who’s being the hypocrite now?
Who is the pot that is calling the kettle black now?
Who ought to apply to himself all the verses that he has hurled at others now?
Did you notice my two lines, just after yours in the heading??
“Oh, who cares? We talked that stupid subject out ages ago.”
That’s how you handle the malignant thing should you decide to involve yourself!!
 

I caught my breath when reading this one.  I know I’ve mentioned this before, but it bears repeating to any JW that would pay attention to scriptures. The anointed are compared to stars.  These stars – “angels” do not symbolize the elder body, as the WT teaches regarding Rev 1:20; 2:1; Rev 12:1; (Gal 4:24,26) Angels are messengers, the anointed are messengers.   Mal 2:7; John 1:51; Matt 22:29,30; 1 Pet 3:22; Heb 12:22,23; Luke 10:20, etc. 
 “Do everything without grumbling or arguing, 15 so that you may become blameless and pure, (Rev 14:3-5; 2 Cor 11:2; Heb 7:26); “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.” Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky (Matt 5:16) as you hold firmly to the word of life. And then I will be able to boast on the day of Christ that I did not run or labor in vain. Phil 2:14-16
These anointed “stars” can fall from their stable “heavenly” position. 
“Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.”  2 Pet 3:17
During the last days, there are anointed ones “carried away by the error of the lawless”, who fall from God's grace.
“See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.” Heb 12:15
In order to defile many, one must lead many, into iniquity. 
Revelation 12:4 speaks of anointed who fall by swallowing deceptive teachings/water from a false prophet. 
Wormwood is a bitter root.*
·       *bitter gall; extreme wickedness, a bitter root, and so producing a bitter fruit. Matt 7:15-20
Wormwood represents fallen anointed leaders who produce spiritual bad “fruit” that defiles many.  Rev 13:11,14  When one falls from God’s grace by breaking the covenant with God, he or she commits spiritual adultery.   
“The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water— 11 the name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter.”  Rev 8:10,11
Truly, Jehovah’s people do not hunger spiritually or thirst for truth. Neither does the scorching heat of God’s fiery judgments fall upon us. We know how good the spiritual provisions taste and how nourishing they are. Km 5/88 p. 5,6
There is nothing nourishing about falsehoods, no matter how they are dressed with ‘side dishes’; but as the quote says, lies poison slowly, cautiously,  and I will add, deliberately.  The cup that Wormwood offers, is brimming with lies. Micah 2:11; Eph 5:18; Rev 17:1-4  Accepting this Harlot’s cup induces numbness; and the distinction of what is a lie and what is truth is impossible to determine, unless one sincerely turns to God, and asks for His help.    Jonah 2:1-9; Lam 3:19-25 
 
 
 
 

It seems than that the Kid is trying to run the show, and give orders to others. He seems to have learnt his ways from the GB and the Elders. 
I do wish people would fully understand the word Apostate though. And isn't this the OPEN forum for all of us.
Don't JW's have a private/ closed forum for themselves ? So where is the problem for that poor child Kid. Can't he just go to the Private forum and be happy there ? 
@JW Insider Quote "The only comments allowed in a congregational setting must be completely supportive even if the paragraph contained information that was clearly unscriptural. "
Thank you JWI, this is so true and so wrong. And it's a form of brainwashing, a ritual by parrot fashion answering. Basically just repeating what the W/t article states as 'fact' when in truth it is not fact. 
When you think of it that's how they teach evolution in schools. If it's in the text book it has to be right.  Just as if it's in the W/t it has to be right. 
Can people not see the hypocracy of it all. And that is what the Kid wants here, indoctrination. No thanks. 

TTH, Am I going to have to actually go back and read this entire thread? I tried to avoid reading it, by only scanning for comments on the Chilean flag portion. But it has become pretty obvious that I have been referenced by others more often than I have even made comments here in this thread. Don't know why I ever became a sub-topic here.
The rebuke was effective. I will be holding my cards close to the vest for the next few weeks. If I feel that my conscience is still clean, and there is no more reason to speak up anywhere about the things I have seen and heard, then I will happily remove myself completely and no longer comment in public about the controversies and issues that I currently think should be brought to light. For the record, I have not participated on any other public forum (with minor exceptions several years ago) before coming to this one when it was jw-archive.org. So this would not be a matter of merely moving to another forum.
Luke 17:3 of course says something like: "So watch yourselves. 'If your brother or sister sins against you, rebuke them; and if they repent, forgive them.' "
Taking a strong stand or using a "loaded" bit of vocabulary has often triggered BTK (and persons just like him) to re-use the exact same words or expression back at the person he was conversing with. Although it was buried deep within your post, I read this, above, and fully expected BTK to use the same expression back at you. He came very close.
That minor quirk might relate to what you say below about another person that BTK reminds you of, but it is intentionally easy to disclaim this one as meaningless. It's just a friendly reminder that other similar reactions might not be unexpected. In my opinion, it's only one of literally hundreds of examples.
You are not implying it at all, but if BTK is AllenSmith "reincarnated," then I am very happy he is still here. Both Allen and BTK have very often provided unique insights that have been valuable in providing additional sides of an issue. But there may also be a dark lesson to be learned in the idea that a person can feel very distraught by having a past persona wiped out, and his prior comments removed as if worthless. It is probably akin to the removal of a person who has been disfellowshipped for matters of conscience, leaving them with no way to return, as if they have been wiped off the face of the earth, with loss of all prior connections that meant a lot to them. It's no wonder that we've seen people here refer to the process of disfellowshipping and shunning as a type of "murder." It must be worse for a person who feels that a forum is akin to a congregation in need of shepherding. (Sorry, my cards are showing again!)
I should add that BTK's comments also remind of AllenSmith in another way. When he quotes from other sources, or when he runs a comment through a Microsoft product before posting it here, those comments will reformat with extra gaps between paragraphs. When I checked the html "source code" of Allen's comments, they previously matched BTK's "source code" and have been the only ones on the forum that contained the following <class> and <span> definitions. Both of the following examples are from above in this thread:
----------------------------
<p class="MsoNormal">
            <span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif;mso-ascii-theme-font:major-bidi;mso-hansi-theme-font:
major-bidi;mso-bidi-theme-font:major-bidi">I would say, you demand as much as Anna, James, JWinsider when it comes to the role an Elder and the governing body has within Christ Church.</span>
<p class="MsoNormal">
            <span style="font-size:12.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif;mso-ascii-theme-font:major-bidi;mso-hansi-theme-font:
major-bidi;mso-bidi-theme-font:major-bidi">As for knowing people are liars, I agree and I treat everyone as such. I don&rsquo;t hold preferences as you do. I don&rsquo;t admire apostasy as you do.</span>
This gives away another research trick but it's a simple and useful one for cyber forensics. By contrast. Here are your own, TTH. Mine are the same, with no extra mso options:
<p>
            We&rsquo;re on the same side, really, going about the same thing in different ways. I am not going to allow a division be made between us. I&rsquo;m just not.
        </p>
----------------------
This is not any indication that BTK is doing anything wrong. No matter what, he is completely within his rights to speak up as he does, and I appreciate it. If someone is going to publicly present an opinion or information they believe is true, it is always important to have someone with a different or opposite opinion providing their own information. It is what we often need to keep from just merely falling for the first (or last) opinion we hear on a topic. It's one of the reasons I always argued to keep Allen from being removed, as admins can attest.
BTK is trying to root apostasy from this site. I think there has been too much apostasy on this site, too. But I also think all apostates should have a place to express their views in public as it also provides a double-check on the men who may have judged them as apostate. I think that even within the congregation all disfellowshippings for apostasy should be argued in front of the entire congregation so that the rebuke of the majority can be clear. Accessible public forums may be the next best thing. I also think that all of us should be able to comment from the heart about anything stated in the congregation or on jw.org. There is no current forum for many of us to comment honestly from the heart, and no comments section on jw.org. The only comments allowed in a congregational setting must be completely supportive even if the paragraph contained information that was clearly unscriptural. In some cases those unscriptural ideas have already been corrected over the years, but in other cases they would have been corrected more quickly if all persons felt comfortable answering honestly from the heart.
Of course, BTK has the idea (that we keep going back to) that no one should be allowed to publicly disagree with a current Watchtower doctrine, policy, or practice. He even appears to believe that past mistakes and corrections were possibly part of Jehovah's plan, so that they were not really mistakes, after all. He also thinks that someone is literally apostate if they disagree with the current eschatology. Of course, our eschatology is tied so closely to teachings about the anointed, the great crowd, the faithful slave, specifics of prophetic explanations, the definition of generation, etc., that his position could be understandable.

Little Timmy signing a get well soon birthday card for another kid who is going through Kino therapy for cancer makes Jehovah very angry at Timmy.
Little Timmy gets raped by a brother and he tells the elders instead of police makes Jehovah very happy with Timmy.

Talk about being at the mercy of a bigger person's (even though imaginary) mood swings.

Imagine putting that on a child. 😔
Also, what a prissy, over sensitive asshole Jehovah sounds if the actions of a wee kid can affect his temperament in those extremes.
Cults will cult.