Foreigner

It looked to me like there was more to the government's case. Apparently the brothers assigned to do the HLC work in Spain were creating a database of doctors sympathetic to bloodless surgery. But it was done by compiling information gathered from questioning doctors, questioning staff, and questioning the experience of Witness patients with those doctors. The amount of cooperation in the way they answered questions, and the patient experiences were all used to produce a list of those assumed to respond well in situations listed. The data from both patients and doctors was used to make assumptions about how those doctors would treat cases assumed similar by the the HLC. It was being shared without permission. This had come up before and the HLC had been called out for this in 2014 and 2017. So the HLC promised to destroy the database. A followup shows that the HLC is still making use of the database that they never destroyed, and they are still collecting data.
I think the penalty is especially for lying about the destruction and (dis)continued use of the database.

They kept a database of doctors who do bloodless surgery/medical care. Under EU, that's not legal - in EU opinion.
 

While there is no precedence in the US to gather data for medical purposes to bloodless surgeries, it appears the Branch Office might have been misled by Spain government officials that would have given them permission to gather such data.

https://www.ahrq.gov/research/findings/final-reports/iomracereport/reldata5.html

This comes in a time, where the political atmosphere is changing for the worse in Spain. The people might once again ally themselves with the axes of evil as they did before.

Whatever the case may be. No true witness should weigh in as to the legality of the intent. It seems one person here has not just become a judge, but also a supporter of the government.

Perhaps that kind of thinking is best served in the JW ONLY forum, where people are free to be as judgmental and cynical against the Watchtower as much as they want.

Having said that, it appears the rules have changed in Spain.

The Health System in Transition (HiT) profile on Spain was co-produced by the European Observatory on Health Systems and Policies, the Spanish Association of Public Health and Health Care Administration (Sociedad Española de Salud Pública y Administración Sanitaria, SESPAS) and the Institute for Health Sciences in Aragón (Instituto Aragonés de Ciencias de la Salud, I+CS).

 

Spain will have to prove what provision the Watchtower violated under international law.

Thanks for the increased clarity on this @JW Insider and @ComfortMyPeople.
Seems to be the unauthorised compiling and sharing of a sort of "best buy" consumer rating list of doctors who are 1. willing to engage in non-blood medical management. and 2. having a good "bedside manner". I don't know much about data protection laws in Spain, but it does seem in the context of the news report to have been a rather ill-advised venture.

In Spain, legislation is extremely protective and protects individual liberties and the rights of citizens. One of these rights is the "protection of personal data". That is, when a third party wants to obtain my information (name, address, for example) or much more importantly (my religion, medical issues, financial issues) I have to authorize him. Otherwise it is prohibited and is punishable.
That's why in Spain we do not use the forms of preaching records to record "not at home", return visits, etc. We did it on personal sheets, and lately we are recommended to do it on the mobile or tablet to be more discreet. Still, legally, if I write down "Ms. Maria, street x, interested," you should ask her for permission to have that information. In short, a real problem. None of us do that.
And that brings us to the fine. What the Hospital Liaison Committees have done is illegal. They have done it in good faith, but it is illegal. They have interviewed doctors and collected information from patients (Witnesses) and, without their consent, they have taken note of these data, they have collected them in an electronic file, and (of this I am not sure) they have transfer this data to third others.
All this is penalized. Here when you enter the door of a doctor the first time the first thing they do is to extend a form where you authorize the query to keep your data.
What saddens me in particular is the lack of orientation that the headquartes has given to the brothers who attend this work. Only a small form would have sufficed, asking the interested parties if they give their consent to the fact that the interview information could be collected and stored for later use. Let's see if they do it in the future, because this fine affects a small community in this country, but luckily the government agency has not investigated the rest of Spain.

FelixCA I think you are mentally ill. You compare the Watchtower to Jesus and I tell you there is no comparison. Then you accuse me of thinking the Watchtower is Jesus. 
Where is the common sense in that ?  It was YOU that compared The Son of God to a sinful Organisation. You really seem unwell. 
I will repeat what I wrote before :- 
By the way Felix, just a reminder, Jesus was and is PERFECT and IS the Son Of God.
The GB are just sinful men and so are their writing department and the rest of JW Org. 
No matter how hard you try there in NO COMPARISON. 

Then your ignorance perceives you if you think that the Watchtower is like Jesus or is Jesus. Grow up, man! This is not the Catholic faith and the GB are not the POPE that believes he can do no wrong in the eyes of God since the first POPE passed on that precious gift of all that the apostles could do. Except for one thing, be perfect.
You’re no better in understanding people than you are about scripture. The last one of Matthew was a lulu!
Try
1 Corinthians 2:8-10 New International Version (NIV)
8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:
“What no eye has seen,
    what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”[a]—
    the things God has prepared for those who love him—
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
That’s why you’re in the outside in the dark, bud! By the way, The answer to the riddle is "SATAN" just in case you continue to be clueless. 😁

Quote FelixCA "Did anyone in Jesus time, convince Jesus he shouldn’t do what he set out to do? Then why do some here think they can dictate to the Watchtower what they think the Watchtower should do. This is the kind of mentality that is disturbing to see."
Well it's kind of disturbing to me that anyone would compare the Watchtower to Jesus.
Jesus is the Son of Almighty God. The Watchtower is a magazine written by men that haven't really got a clue about true meanings of scriptures. So No comparison whatsoever. 
I would love a copy of the Shepherding book 2019, to see how many rules they have now changed. They say they keep getting 'new light' but only fools would believe that.  The GB are probably learning that they are losing control of the 'congregation earthwide' so they have to back off a bit and 'give a bit of slack'. 
Oh yes another Jesus comparison by Felix CA :-
 No one, but no one is forcing anyone to remain in the Org. Those that wish to leave are free to do that. Jesus made that pretty darn clear.
The Org didn't exist when Jesus was on this Earth.  Jesus had followers / disciples, but it wasn't the JW Org. It was the start of TRUE  Christianity, which we know didn't last long. But Felix is bent on this way of comparing the JW Org / Watchtower to Jesus Christ. Such an insult to Jesus Christ.  
By the way Felix, just a reminder, Jesus was and is PERFECT and IS the Son Of God.
The GB are just sinful men and so are their writing department and the rest of JW Org. 
No matter how hard you try there in NO COMPARISON. 

To the contrary, you are the one hell-bent on proving the Watchtower wrong, by your own misconceived notions. Pretty much similar to Raymond Franz. It almost looks like he was your teacher. Too bad.
You are correct, all those apostate sites post nothing more than garbage. The same kind of nonsense that makes its way here.
I don’t know this Alan Smith or Allen Smith, whatever you want to call that person. Once again, where is, that person's post? It seems like a person I can agree with. Not so much with people that want to justify their own means of understanding.
A good example was offered by an angry person. The claim is, it’s wrong to contend with dates. It can backfire.
Didn’t God through his prophets contend with dates? Didn’t John ask Jesus if he was the one spoken about centuries earlier? Matthew 11:3. Did Jesus, tell John, shut up, we are not supposed to speak about time prophecy. It will have a negative impact on the faithful.
What does it mean to be faithful? It seems that has been forgotten here. No one, but no one is forcing anyone to remain in the Org. Those that wish to leave are free to do that. Jesus made that pretty darn clear. He wanted to see “righteous” and “faithful” people inherit the earth.
He didn’t want creatures of habit like those that defied God when Moses went up the mountain that cost them dearly. That generation would have to die before God would grant the loyal ones access to the promise land.
People, usually hate hearing the truth. I’m no different. That’s what it means to become spiritually mature. To leave those past thoughts behind. This is not what is happening here now, is it?
Here, there is a festering of disdain. A culture of the Pharisees. The funny thing, you people don’t want to take responsibility for your actions. Galatians 6:5-15
You, people, think it’s just a given to spread gossip and false reports, and still, think somehow god still favors you, because you are part of the Org and that’s enough. Wrong! Ephesians 4:23-24
How else would God allow someone to rethink scripture as intended? By the first century values, when Christendom had but pretty much defiled its existence to promote their own agenda.
Did anyone in Jesus time, convince Jesus he shouldn’t do what he set out to do? Then why do some here think they can dictate to the Watchtower what they think the Watchtower should do. This is the kind of mentality that is disturbing to see.
So, excuse me if people here don’t understand the significance of prophecy. It’s still no excuse by the lack of understanding to suggest others don’t understand. Those that don’t understand, there is a reason for it. That’s not a good thing. 1 Corinthians 2:14, Matthew 13:13
The only thing I see is a refusal not to accept. Wordplay with the word “prophecy” and “time”. Prophecies exist in scripture. Time prophecy is the given time period within those prophecies. How else would we know when a certain event happened? No reason to separate the two.
Continue living normal lives, as millions of Witnesses have done, and continue to do. If there is something you people don’t understand, even though the Org is using the “simplest” of ways to have you understand, aside from having to treat people like children, that would be on the individual, not the Watchtower.
That certainly doesn’t mean, the GB is working in the dark. That belongs to those that fail to understand. Therefore, it’s only dangerous to those that don’t understand.
COMPARING PROPHETIC SOURCES: PRINCIPLES AND A TEST CASE Martti Nissinen 1. Ancient Near Eastern Prophecy as the Context of Biblical Prophecy 1.1. Prophetic Studies in Transition Increasing knowledge of ancient Near Eastern prophetic texts has during the last couple of decades led to a growing awareness of prophecy in the ancient kingdoms of Israel and Judah as an integral rather than antagonistic factor in the Near Eastern socio-religious milieu.
 

 

There should be no reason for you to do that, nor I. There are plenty of things wrong or misleading on both of those sites. In fact, I see that AD1914 has merely taken a lot of articles from JWFacts and Hatton, and AlanF, and just re-posted them verbatim.
That's what you should do. And you appear to have access to a lot of research materials, so that's great.
No one is asking you or anyone else to buy into anything, but at least I see that we agree on the topic of the earth's creation. The Watchtower says that the creative days were of unknown length, and that these days didn't begin counting until perhaps many millions or even billions of years after which time the earth was "formless and waste." There is nothing wrong with this perspective we learn from the Watchtower. It is perfectly fine from a Biblical view, as a "day" can have a variety of meaning. I don't remember reading anything different in R.Franz perspective, so I'm guessing that he would have agreed with us, too.
I'm sure there are always new and better ways to explain things. Certain questions come in that show a need for focusing on something that was only mentioned briefly before. New books and new quotes are available that weren't available in 1967. I'm sure you already knew all this, so I'm not even sure why you are asking.
Why? Why should I find other avenues to criticize the Org? I'm only going to question areas where prayer and study and meditation and Bible reading have led me to think that certain strongly entrenched doctrines ought to be questioned. The Watchtower has often said that it welcomes such questioning. The Bible makes it our Christian duty to make sure of all things. 
It's for the same reason that I welcome your own questions and criticisms of those areas that I have brought up. But I often wish that you would actually offer Scriptures, reasoning, or even counter-arguments. Instead, you seem to have an obsession with making false statements about things I've said. Perhaps you just have trouble understanding me. But if that's the case, don't just jump to conclusions about what I said, or what I think Russell said, or the Watchtower said, etc. Just ask! I'd be happy to discuss any of these things.
But instead you seem bent on making claims like the one above that says that I think the Org is wrong and only I am right. It's completely false, of course, and I'm sure you know that. But why waste your time on such things even if it were true. If a person says something you disagree with, it's better to discuss the thing, not whether the person always thinks he is right. 
Here again, why be so obsessed with persons who have agreed with something I've said, here and there? I think a lot of people have noticed this absurd obsession you appear to have with up-votes, down-votes, and such things. I'm not here for any of their up-votes or to get anyone to hang on every fiber of my words. There have been people here in the past, Alan [Allen] Smith for one, who was so obsessed with up-votes and down-votes that he created multiple accounts just to practice vote-spamming, where he targeted a few people with literally hundreds of down-votes and employed those same multiple accounts to create hundreds of up-votes for himself. It was a funny quirk of his, and the Librarian or admin pointed it out publicly. But I'm not concerned about it myself. I'd point out the exact same scriptural concerns even if I never got an upvote. And there are others who probably would point out some of the exact same concerns if I weren't even here.
The thing I would appreciate is having someone respond to the reasons my "false demonstrations" are false rather than going after me for bringing them up.

Yes, well, to me it’s all meaningless. I can enter an apostate website like JWfacts, or AD1914 and copy that garbage of what these people think the Watchtower is conveying. I, however, do diligent research.  It’s been a battle between creationist and evolutionist how long it has taken the earth to form. The evidence proves what the Watchtower indicates between creation by God and the origins of the universe. Evolution, Natural selection, the big bang theory, Science.
So, excuse me if I don’t buy into your understanding. Why would the watchtower find it a need to publish the book's creation (ce) and “life-how did it get here? By evolution or by creation” in 1985 after the 1967 book, did man get here by evolution or by creation?
*** w85 6/1 p. 7 Adam and Eve—Myth or Reality? ***
 
Wisdom of the World or Wisdom of God?
The French Jesuit priest Teilhard de Chardin brought about one of the biggest changes in Catholic thought. He considered evolution to be a gradual climb to a spirit existence. According to his theory, life forms evolve, passing through the animal and human stages, being finally destined to become united at a focal omega point—Christ. Although initially condemned by the church, the theory gained the approval of many Catholic ecclesiastics. However, it was clearly contrary to Scriptural evidence and heaped reproach on God himself, denying the necessity of the ransom for humans to recover perfect human life.
 

 
Recoiling from these conclusions are the "scientific creationists." But their interpretation of the Genesis creation account has led them to claim that the earth is only 6,000 years old and that the six "day’s allowed in Genesis for creation were each only 24 hours long. But does such an idea accurately represent what the Bible is saying? Was the earth, and all its life forms, created in just six literal days? Or is there a reasonable alternative?
AS WITH other things that are misrepresented or misunderstood, the first chapter of the Bible deserves at least a fair hearing. The need is to investigate and determine whether it harmonizes with known facts, not to mold it to fit some theoretical framework. Also to be remembered, the Genesis account was not written to show the "how" of creation…The first part of Genesis indicates that the earth could have existed for billions of years before the first Genesis "day," though it does not say for how long. However, it does describe what earth's condition was just before that first "day" began:”
 

Perhaps you need to reacquaint yourself with the Watchtower publications in order to find other avenues to criticize the Org, by your personal perception on how you think the Org is wrong and only you are right.
So, far, you have TTH, comfortmypeople, JTR, Butler, Srecko, Anna holding on to every fiber of your words and false demonstrations.
Remember, TTH believes you’re an excellent writer. Such people do tend to make believers of those that are weak minded. So, the only ones living under a rock are those that want to believe in conspiracies.
 

I have no idea where some of you learned the truth as prescribed by the Watchtower. I think TTH friend and distorter of the truth to gain favor by such people as Butler isn’t reason enough to twist the publications of the Watchtower to sway an erroneous interpretation by that individual.
It appears this person is saying the Watchtower somehow believes the 6 creative days is the same as the 1000 years, is like a day to God in 2 Peter 3:8. Now I can understand someone like TTH would agree with such misguided logic, it would, however, be wrong.
Since it’s a totally different understanding. This person JWinsider has gone beyond what the Watchtower is actually saying. Perhaps this individual is stuck in the same ideology as his mentor Raymond.
That is another way of attempting to disprove 1975. An erred perception but understandable. Since number 7 is a pivotal number in Biblical determination. Anyone with sense would surmise Peter was symbolically referring to what he meant with a 1000 years.
Therefore, the Watchtower used that same symbolism to interject the date 1975 as being the end of the 6th day of man's existence, not creation.
That is something the Watchtower does relate to. So, I don’t see where the confusion would be, other than being man-made (conspiracy).
*** w75 10/1 p. 581 The End of 6,000 Years of Man-Rule Approaches—What Has Been Accomplished? ***
Panoramic Survey
This 6,000-year period of man’s existence was early marked by the loss of paradise. Since then, frustrated mankind has tried many kinds of government in an effort to regain at least some form of material paradise. But what has been accomplished? The result is world confusion. Mankind faces ruination, just as Jesus foretold concerning our day: “On the earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out . . . while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth.” But God’s Word holds forth hope!—Luke 21:25, 26.
For as much as I make every effort to use small common words so people like Butler can understand, I see I continue to fail to communicate, other than those areas where my words are twisted.
That’s just dishonest. However, I do find it fascinating and funny how people want to distort the Watchtower’s understanding to coincide with apostate views. For this reason, I will no longer interact with certain people here anymore. Anyone wanting to seek knowledge with wisdom will find the Watchtower has related that message of the 6th day of man's existence, since before 1950. If, 1975 marked the day of rest for God, entering the 7th day. Humanity has proven how the God of this world has indulged himself since then to corrupt this world beyond comparison before 1975. Now are there those that are blind to what is before them?
 

You keep saying it doesn’t matter. Yet you’re a creature of habit to keep bringing up the past as though it has somehow been a mistake. Just keep reminding yourself, it’s a mistake with people like you. It’s your personal opinion that the Watchtower has erred. Yet, you don’t wish to see the flaws in your own interpretation. This is the kind of things that are willing to be accepted by who, Comfortmypeople, JTR? These people would be just in the dark as your explanation. You have made yourself a “messiah” to proclaim your false understanding and your false teaching with anything related to the Watchtower. People that have no business being part of an organization, it clearly feels disdain for.
You and your kind have lost the right to criticize the Watchtower as a faithful member. Knowing Butler was an Ex-JW from other sites, proves how far people are willing to go to make others think they have a sad story to tell and have a legitimate grievance, even though it took him long enough to finally come out with the truth.
He knows where he stands before God and is not a hypocrite, or at least not now that he admits it. Where does that leave some of you? Especially those that are no longer in good standing with the Org.
Therefore, with the presentation offered by JWinsider proves one thing, distortion of facts, just like Raymond, since he is offering no scriptural proof, just overdrawn conclusions on what he personally thinks the Watchtower publications are conveying.
 
 
 
 

Outta, I always fact check before leaping into an assumption. It’s best not to show people how ignorant we are here, just because the “Herald” has had slight name changes over the century. It doesn’t stop being THE HERALD.



Unless you are going to argue like JWinsider with wordplay with the phrase " The Herald of Christ Presence " as it's also known by.

The New Creation, Studies in the Scriptures, is not so different than what was continued until the 1970's and proposed again in the 1980's:
We believe our readers will agree that although the length of these epoch-days is not indicated, we will be justified in assuming that they were uniform periods, because of their close identity as members of the one creative week. Hence, if we can gain reasonable proof of the length of one of these days, we will be fully justified in assuming that the others were of the same duration. We do, then, find satisfactory evidence that one of these creative "days" was a period of seven thousand years and, hence, that the entire creative week would be 7,000 x 7 equals 49,000 years. And although this period is infinitesimal when compared with some geological guesses, it is, we believe, quite reasonably ample for the work represented as being accomplished therein—the ordering and filling of the earth, which already "was" in existence, but "without form [order], and void [empty]." . . .  Evening and morning, Day Six, at its close, 42,000 years after "work" began, found the earth ready for man to subdue. . . .
Edited to add that the December 1912 Watch Tower also explained it similarly:
Six great Thousand-Year Periods or Days have passed since Adam was created, according to Bible chronology. We are now in the dawning of the great Seventh Day or Sabbath Day of human experience. God has promised that this Seventh Day of a thousand years will be very different from the preceding Six Days, in which mankind has experienced a reign of Sin and Death. The Seventh Day of a thousand years is Scripturally called the "Day of Christ," and by many it is styled the Millennium. In it Satan and Sin are to be overthrown, righteousness is to be established by the Redeemer, and mankind, purchased by the precious blood at Calvary; are all to have full opportunity for arising from present degradation to re-attainment of the image and likeness of God, lost in Eden by Adam's disobedience.
The Seventh Day of the Creative Week began with Adam's creation and has already lasted six thousand years, and is to be completed with the thousand years of Christ's Reign. The Seventh Creative Day will be seven thousand years long. Whoever sees this to be a reasonable deduction can easily suppose that the six preceding Days of the Genesis account were, likewise, seven thousand years each. Reckoned thus, the total period from the time that Divine Energy began to operate upon the waste Earth down to the time when the whole work of creation and Restitution will be fully completed, would be 7 times 7,000 years, or 49,000 years.
According to the Bible, that time will be a thousand years hence, when The Christ shall have accomplished His work for mankind to the full and shall deliver up the Kingdom to God, even the Father. At that moment the fiftieth thousand-year period will begin, with every creature in Heaven and on earth ascribing praise to Him that sitteth upon the Throne, and to the Lamb, forever. How appropriate this will be, especially when we recall that in God's arrangement fifty is the greatest climax of numbers! In Bible usage the number seven is symbolical of perfection, and 7 times 7 represents a completeness of perfection; and the fiftieth or Jubilee following is climacteric.

Butler,
Ah! Yes, the voice of reason. Don’t worry Butler. I won’t continue a meaningless debate. One, of many speculations made by Raymond Franz that are being accepted by spiritually weak people.
A good research point would be with Pastor Russell’s Photo-Drama. I don’t know if the Bible Students finished the restoration or the Watchtower for all that matter. But the last time I looked, the Bible students did “some” restoration in 1992-93.
The original nitrate films are in such a state that they cannot be projected normally and video-taped. Consequently, they had to be copied, one frame at a time, manually, onto 16mm movie film (Kodachrome). The resultant copy was used in the production of the video-tape of the Photo-
Drama. The following listing details the contents of the video tapes of the Photo-Drama of Creation which were assembled between November, 1992 and March 6, 1993. Several of the films have not passed through my hands yet (if they exist at all), therefore, this production is not the complete eight hour production. There are more music records, which go along with films; however, since the films which these records support are missing, the records are not included.
It’s a shame if the whole presentation can’t be restored. This just proves, maybe there is something more to the Photo-Drama than meets the eye.
The point would be, there were different factions within the Bible Student association. Just like each congregation functioned independently from the Tower.
Do some Bible Students of today support Adventism, Yes they do. Are there some Bible Students that still have creationist views? Yes, there are.
CREATION—-Mosaic Account.
Q197:1 QUESTION (1911)—1—Do you believe in the Mosaic account of creation?
ANSWER—We believe the divine revelation, and if we had no Bible we think it would be proper to look for one. We could not imagine that a great loving Creator would have a plan for his creatures, bring them into existence, and not provide some revelation respecting his will regarding them. So that even when I had thrown away my Bible, when I did not know its value, I got to looking for a Bible somewhere and I searched amongst all the heathen religions to see if I could find one any better than the one I had thrown away, and I found nothing nearly as rational, nearly as reasonable, as the Bible when I understood it. We believe its account of creation is the only authorized account
At a first glance. It seems Russell was a creationist. That he believed the account of Genesis was made up in 6 days and on the 7th day God rested were accomplished in 7000 years.
The problem there, what was Russell actually saying. He was using the same starting point from, CREATION of ADAM to 1873AD to mark the end of the 6th day. Using the 1000 year computation.
The same inference depicted by the Watchtower for 1975. So, was Pastor Russell “really” saying creation was made in 6000 years? Was he referring, each creative day was 7000 years, which would mean, Genesis creation took 42,000 years or was he emphasizing man’s existence.
The First Day or Epoch
"Let there be light! and there was light." Thus, briefly, is summed up the result of the 7,000 years, styled the First Day. Not that God's Word would not have been sufficient for any miracle, but because He prefers to work out His glorious designs along natural lines.-Genesis 1:3… We follow the theory that each of the Seven Days of the Creative Week was a period of seven thousand years. This, seven times seven thousand, equals forty-nine thousand (7x7,000=49,000) years, ushering in a grand Jubilee Epoch.
STUDY II
BIBLE CHRONOLOGY
Chronology Necessary to an Understanding of Prophecy—Indispensable Data Furnished in the Bible—From the Creation of Adam to A.D. 1873 was Six Thousand Years—A Statement of Bible Chronology in Great Periods—Its Examination in Detail—From Creation to the Day the Flood was Dried Up—To the Abrahamic Covenant—To the Giving of the Law—To the Division of Canaan among the Tribes—The Period of the Judges—The Period of the Kings—The Period of the Desolation—To A.D. 1873—Wherein this Chronology Differs from that of Bishop Usher, Noted in our English Bibles—The True Date of our Lord's Birth.
Therefore, can people honestly claim, Pastor Russell, overshadowed creation by suggesting creation took 6000 years as creationist do, or was he’s understanding an explanation that reflects after creation to man’s existence? People that argue the Bible Student era, fail in two points. First, not fully grasping what the intent was, and second, to make The Bible Student era in its infant understanding and claim it’s still accepted by Jehovah’s Witnesses.
JW’s understand the creative day can have an infinite number, not 49,000 years. It’s disingenuous and false to think, Russell was a creationist by referring to the Genesis account of creation as 6000 years.
Therefore, NO! today’s Watchtower has not erred in any of the claims made. These separate issues are still being combined as usual.
I left the word "week" up for scrutiny, just in case more wordplay is given.
 
 
 
 
 
 

LOL. I got so confused when both TTH and I used the word "shrill" within a couple days of each other. I started thinking maybe Allen Smith was right after all when he used to say I was the same person as TTH, among several others. I think Allen could have tried to convince me that it was just him and me running the entire forum.
I never said it doesn't matter. You either forgot what I said, or made it up, or I forgot what I said. Or I could have said something you misunderstood. Even so, I accept that it matters very much to me that we don't "do dates." But I would only impose this on myself, I don't think it matters so much that I should impose my view on others in the congregation. But I'm happy to present how much it matters to me if called upon to do so.
The "Clarification of Our Beliefs" does not have anything to do with what I was referring to. I was referring to specific admissions of past errors about dates in several other specific places in the Watch Tower publications. In addition, I was also referring to specific things that the Watchtower admitted can be dangerous and un-Christian, including 'serving with a date in mind.'

That’s where I got it from. I guess that makes me space merchant for using “that being said” or that said. You are definitely showing signs of a mental breakdown. Just don’t jump off the tower to have people blame the Watchtower for your instability.
Especially when you first suggest it doesn’t matter, then it does matter. Coherency is lacking. Spend time with Butler, just maybe he can knock some of the realism back into your life. But don’t worry, I don’t buy into anything you have posted as fact. It’s your perception of fact. It’s the perception of what some will agree with you, is fact. The Watchtower published a book of errors to appease those harden critics that believe as you do. It is demonstrating how a publication can be taken out of context, as it's done here with the many distortions.
The “Clarification of Our Beliefs” Does not constitute what you are offering.
 
THE PURPOSE OF THIS PUBLICATION
“Jehovah God urges his people to “keep searching” for understanding and discernment as though they were looking for “hidden treasures.” (Prov. 2: 1-5) This means that we need to exert ourselves in searching for answers to our Bible questions and in finding help for our personal concerns in life.
This Research Guide for Jehovah’s Witnesses is designed to assist you in your search.”
 
Therefore, the only thing dangerous and un-Christian is people like yourself. What did TTH say, in the end, you adhere and support those in charge? That's funny, in what universe. 😁

FelixCA, Just in case anyone gets the impression that this is true, it might be interesting to look at what the Watch Tower publications said, which makes me question your claim. It sounds like you are claiming that the Watch Tower publications do not state any one given time, and this is no different from the way the "parable of the ten virgins" was described in the Bible Student era. Feel free to correct me if it is wrong. It's not too far off topic. It even references the 6,000 years from Adam and its relationship to the beginning of the Millennium, etc.
As I understand it, the Watch Tower publications initially thought that the difference between the foolish virgins and the wise virgins was based on the criteria that the foolish virgins had foolishly given up on chronology after the Great Disappointment of 1844. A "Midnight Cry" went out at some point in the "night" between 1844 and 1874, initially thought to be at the midpoint, around 1859, when Nelson Barbour first recognized and thereafter declared that William Miller had been off by 30 years. The lamps of the virgins had to burn for another 30 years. But the foolish virgins who gave up on chronology had let their lamps run out of oil, which was obvious because they wouldn't believe in 1874.
It seems to me that the parable was considerd to be all about the time period from 1874 to 1881, the seven years period before the "door was shut" on October 3rd, 1881. (A door of "mercy" could still be open, even if the full number of Christ's Bride would have been chosen by October 3rd 1881.)
I'll quote from one of a few articles on the topic from the Bible Student era Watch Tower magazines. The following, until the end of the post, is from the October 1881 Watch Tower (ZWT), beginning on page 288:
"AND THE DOOR WAS SHUT."
. . . The parable of "The Ten Virgins" (Matt. 25) . . .  "Then shall the kingdom of heaven (church) be likened unto ten virgins which took their lamps (Bibles) and went forth to meet the Bridegroom" (i.e.,) they went forth or separated themselves because of their belief that the Bridegroom, Jesus, was about to come.
While we are neither "Millerites" nor "Adventists," yet we believe that this much of this parable met its fulfillment in 1843 and 1844, when William Miller and others, Bible in hand, walked out by faith on its statements, expecting Jesus at that time. . . .
The disappointment of that company of Christians (which was composed of many of the best Christians from all denominations) all are well aware of, but it was foretold in the parable: "While the Bridegroom tarried they all slumbered and slept." As a general arousing of the church to the investigation of God's Word had attended the preaching of Mr. Miller, and the Word was more studied than ever before, especially the Prophecies, so when his calculations seemed to end in such bitter disappointment, a spirit of drowsiness followed; some slumbered, some slept . . . .
The next important step of the parable (verse 6) is the midnight cry. The night of the parable was the time during which the disappointment lasted and the sleeping occurred, and was to end with joy in the morning, when, the tarrying being ended, the Bridegroom would be present.
As the former movement in the parable had been represented by Miller and others, so to this second movement we give a similar application. A brother,  B[arbour]_ of Rochester, was, we believe, the chosen vessel of God through whom the "Midnight Cry" issued to the sleeping virgins of Christ, announcing a discrepancy of thirty years in some of Miller's calculations, and giving a rearrangement of the same argument (and some additional), proving that the night of the parable was thirty years long, and that the morning was in 1873, and the Bridegroom due in that morning in 1874.

We do not here give the time, arguments or proofs. They are familiar to many, and can be had in more convenient shape. We merely notice here that the Bible chronology, first dug from Scripture by Bowen, of England, which shows clearly and positively that the 6,000 years from Adam ended in 1873, and consequently that there the morning of the Millennial day (the seventh thousand) began, in which a variety of things are due. The establishment of the kingdom of Christ, the binding of Satan, the restitution of all things, and the blessing of all the families of the earth, are all due. And if all these things are due during this thousand years which commenced in 1873, surely one of the first things due and on which the others all depend, is the coming of the Bridegroom, who must first exalt his church [establish his kingdom] before it can bless, restore or bind.
Bro. B[arbour]_____ first began to preach the message, and soon started a paper, which he appropriately called "The Midnight Cry," the circulation of which soon ran up to 15,000 copies a month, and served to arouse many of the drowsy to a fresh examination and trimming of their lamps. These began again to search the Scriptures for the time of the Bridegroom's coming.
But the disappointment had served an intended purpose in casting a reproach on the subject of "time," and the prudent ones had reached the worldly-wise conclusion that having been disappointed once and consequently had the finger of scorn pointed at them, they would be more prudent in future, and not expose themselves to contempt; so there was a division of the company; some could see it and others could not. ("Thou hast hid these things from the (worldly) wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.") Some rejoiced in the midnight message that the Bridegroom was due in 1874, and were able to find the evidences in the light of their lamps; others admitted that though Scripture contained a great deal of "time," yet they were so fearful and prudent that their lamps would give no light. Thus they said: "Our lamps are gone out." Thus one separation took place.
When 1874 came and there was no outward sign of Jesus in the literal clouds and in a fleshly form, there was a general re-examination of all the arguments upon which the "Midnight Cry" was made. And when no fault or flaw could be found, it led to the critical examination of the Scriptures which seem to bear on the manner of Christ's coming, and it was soon discovered that the expectation of Jesus in the flesh at the second advent was the mistake; that the human nature had been taken for the purpose of giving a ransom for humanity, and that the human nature remains a sacrifice forever; that Jesus, though put to death in the flesh, was quickened or made alive in spirit—Sown a natural body, raised a spiritual body, &c., and that all spiritual bodies can be present unseen. . . .
It was evident, then, that though the manner in which they had expected Jesus was in error, yet the time, as indicated by the "Midnight Cry," was correct, and that the Bridegroom came in the Autumn of 1874, and he appeared to the eyes of faith—seen by the light of the lamp—the Word. Afterward it was seen that the thirty years of tarrying between 1844 and 1874 was the exact parallel to the thirty years of tarrying at the first advent, from the time the wise men visited the babe until Jesus stood on Jordan and was anointed with the Holy Ghost for his work, at thirty years of age. (Acts 10:38.) . . .
To return to the parable. If these movements were of God, and if Bros. Miller and B__________ were his instruments, then that "Midnight Cry," based on the prophetic and other statements and evidences, was correct, and the "Bridegroom came" in 1874. We believe that Midnight Cry was of God, and was fulfilled by the Bridegroom's coming, not because Bros. Miller and B__________ claimed it, but because the Word of God supports it.
"How firm a foundation, ye saints of the Lord,
Is laid for your faith in His excellent Word."
. . . The going in, like all other features of the parable, is a work of time, and we understand that it has been in progress during the seven years from 1874. . . .
The seven years which ended October 3d, 1881, were years of favor during the presence, that of the living generation all of readiness of heart might become members of the little flock and enter into the joys of our Lord's presence. If our application of Scripture be correct, the favor has now ended, and in the language of the parable, "the door was shut"; and to those who have never fully consecrated and sacrificed self to God, we cannot any longer hold out the great prize of our high calling, viz.: to be members of the Bride of Christ, joint heirs of Glory, Honor and Immortality.

This is why, I have every right to call you for what you are, and what you stand for. I believe that wasn't always the case here. Maybe it still isn't if I get erased along with my comments.
One being, a false perception you have about JW members and free will. God gives us free will as NOT to cause strife or divisions among the brotherhood. Who are you to speak against God's inspired words?

I believe JWinsider is Bible Student bashing. How is that not part of the discussion, when the inference is there? Can I be more specific? 

That’s Good Tom. You follow the same pattern of logic as the Watchtower. They don’t specifically state anyone given time. The most they will do is in keeping with “readiness at any hour” by Mark 13:33, and Matthew 24:42.
No different from the “the parables of the ten virgins” described by the Bible Student era with Matthew 25:13
Keeping a watch and staying alert with the signs of the times keep faithful servant alert and ready for the unknown. 1 Thessalonians 5:2, Matthew 24:43, Revelation 16:15 Does that mean living in fear, only foolish people would suggest that. Is it referring to our personal lives, or is scripture referring to something other than what might happen within a generation, or is it something more personal like staying awake and being alert with our spirituality. Something that will have a more profound impact even after death.
The Watchtower has shown the closeness each generation gets to the conclusion of this old system. Unfavorable people like to think there are hidden messages. That, of course, is concocted in their own minds.
 

Yes. This goes all the way back to Russell's "Photo-Drama of Creation" which emphasized the 49,000 years of creative days. I don't think anyone here has denied that this is what we taught. But in the 1970's, the cracks in this view were already beginning to be seen. It had become a way to put more emphasis on 1975. But it was also realized that 1975 could become an embarrassment. And the Aid book, produced by a team led by R.Franz, had provided evidence that the very foundation for all this emphasis was built on sand.

Sorry that I added so much evidence for that assessment in my last few posts, especially. But I do take issue with the idea that "none of this really matters."
Witnesses have long moved on from being too concerned about the personalities of R.Franz and F.Franz. But for some persons, dredging it up again can immediately bring up feelings of hate and judgment. For me, everyone is imperfect and liable to mistakes, including me of course. But I'm concerned when a Biblical principle gets violated and we feel that facts no longer matter:
(Exodus 23:7) . . .“Have nothing to do with a false accusation . . .  for I will not declare the wicked one righteous. (Proverbs 17:15) . . .Anyone who acquits the wicked one and anyone who condemns the righteous one —Both of them are detestable to Jehovah.
The point is exaggerated, but the principle remains. We don't want to let our feelings get in the way of facts when it comes to how strongly we condemn or praise the lives of imperfect men. This includes R.Franz and F.Franz. Sure, it's comforting for some to see one as a devil and one as an angel; it fits a "world view" that some can use to bring a hammer down on others. This goes for ex-JWs who want to see R.Franz as a kind of "angel" and Witnesses who want to see R.Franz as a devil, for example. But there are cracks in these "world views" that anyone can see. Seeing those cracks reduces the comfort level of some and threatens to reduce the power of the hammer for others.
The Bible says to let our reasonableness become known to all, and yet reasonableness from one person will often trigger unreasonable responses. And I can see how I have been unreasonable here a few times, but it's always good to have someone else point it out too, as you have. We can't always see our own faults very well. 
But there is another way in which I think it's wrong to dismiss all of this saying, "None of this really matters does it?"
It's because our very Christianity should be focused on the sort of persons we ought to be every day, precisely because we know that the end could come at any time within our lifetimes. And precisely because we know that it might come, in effect, 1,000 years from now, after we die, for example. Jesus had a good reason for emphasizing why dates and times and seasons were not in our jurisdiction, but in the jurisdiction of the Father. The time was none of our concern. Yet, as a group, we have put so much energy into dates and chronology, and even used this "urgency" as a motivator instead of love as a motivator. To me, I "harp on it" because Jesus and the rest of the Bible made it clear that this really did matter.

Just a suggestion, an ambiguity check is always in order.