7 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

John, You should bring it down a few notches. I should say up front that I am not a moderator but was given some admin privileges only to be able to move posts around and keep topics better organized.

So I'm not speaking as any kind of moderator, and I do not have (or condone) the use of those kinds of privileges to discipline or censure people. People can say just about anything they want about another person's beliefs here. But we shouldn't say just anything they want about the individual. We shouldn't presume to impute bad motives or a bad state of mind (as in drunkenness).

I didn't want to respond to a matter before hearing it, so I ended up watching the video. (I use the term "watching" loosely. Because it was YouTube, I was able to turn it up to 2x speed and then repeatedly click forward on the red line so skip about 3 seconds and then watch 3 seconds over and over. This gives the general idea of a 10 minute video in just over 2 minutes.)

I thought the person sounded angry, perhaps understandably, but also very haughty. I thought it interfered with his message, if not his credibility. Seems he and his wife heard a few statements and we have no idea if he is quoting them exactly or really putting them in context. We have to allow that people have different personalities and different views and reactions, but we can't give credit to an idea just because we agree, and then discredit another view (as naive and drunken, for example) just because we disagree.

Instead, we should deal with the subject matter raised, not the specific individual's motives and state of mind.

I also fail at this. Many of us do. But I hope you aren't upset that I point it out.

@JW Insider Yes I'm upset that you choose to point it out. You are talking like an Elder. This isn't one of your Kingdom Halls so don't try to dominate me. 

Have you ever read Billy the Kid's comments, saying that I need medical attention ?  That's ok is it ? 

And TTH has mentioned my past situation causing me problems etc. 

My comment to Anna was about her comment not about the video. 

OK, let's get down to basics. what exactly was Anna saying about people that reject the JW Org ? 

She was saying that ex-JW's rejected God's standards. I'm an ex JW so does that include me ?

Anna was saying that ex JW's are not good enough to serve God. That is just what the GB and JW Org want people to believe. It's part of the brainwashing. It stops many JW's asking any questions. 

I was hurt by Anna's comment and I'm equally hurt by yours. But then you are both JW's so what more should I expect. 

I think TTH has said this is basically an open forum and we must all accept what others say. Things hurt me and I try to 'let it go by' (quoting Joe Cocker) but I don't expect people to talk down to me as if they are an Elder in a KH. 

Are you an elder ? Your name makes me think you are a 'spy' 'Insider'. Whistleblower.  But probably an Elder too.

Maybe you should stay in the 'Private Club' which is probs more 'soft' for you. 

If @admin thinks I'm out of line I'm sure they will give me a warning or ban me from the forum. 

10 hours ago, Anna said:

It really is not about rejecting the organization, it's because not everyone who has faith in God qualifies to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses. It's about rejecting God's standards. For example, you may have faith in God, but believe the Trinity. Or you may have faith in God but see nothing wrong with celebrating Christmas, or practicing homosexuality, or living an immoral life style, or smoking......etc.

@Anna I cannot believe you said / wrote this. Are you drunk ?

I left the JW Org because of God's high standards. Because the GB and it's Org are going against God's high standards. 

Are you totally blind to the Child Abuse within JW Org ?

Are you blind to the shunning of people that leave the JW Org for the right reasons ? 

Are you blind to the lies / misuse of scriptures / changing of use of scriptures ?

Do you think JW's have a higher standard of morals than other people ? 

Are you so blinded by the smokescreen of hypocrisy in the JW Org ? 

Are you so dominated by those 8 men in charge and by the Elders that act as policemen ? 

Sorry Anna, I think that your comment is so naive. 

I was going to add this to another topic but remembered we are told to start new topics, so I've done that.

Hope this hasn't been added before but it would take me a month to go through all the topics to see if its on here.

It is about the baptism of children, but I also thing it involves making children go on the ministry. 

http://aawa.co/blog/baptism-of-children-the-issue-of-consent/?fbclid=IwAR1cwfrLr1EizagDGhW0Z_7IZV3TtWPq3CpjidqhiS6bqYZVWirxI-oK01s#comment-2071

1 hour ago, Outta Here said:

Those who hate sharing Jehovah's word with others often end up hating those who love to do it.

Possibly, but many young children are just not ready to be that 'brave', to speak up. Many have not made the personal relationship with God that is needed. 

And maybe some of them do not know if what they are told to say is actually true. 

After all the JW ministry is about doing as you are told isn't it ? A JW is not allowed to go to the doors with their own opinion, they must only go to the doors with the message that are told to give, some of which has proven to be untrue.

When a JW learns that the message keeps being changed then even a sensible adult will wonder if any of the JW teaching is true. So who can blame a child that is not convinced by the JW Org.

14 hours ago, Outta Here said:

Are you seriously asking such an ill-informed question? Or are you just quoting something that you have read without thinking about what this demonstrates?

Children have a lot more spontaneous sense than many adults, including whoever formulated such a question as this. Indeed, contrary to those who would seek to muzzle them, such children have the approval of both Jehovah and His Glorious Son, Jesus Christ as recorded at:

Ps 8:2: "Out of the mouths of children and infants you have established strength"       and

Matt.21:15-16:"When the chief priests and the scribes saw the marvelous things he did and the boys who were shouting in the temple, “Save, we pray, the Son of David!” they became indignant and said to him: “Do you hear what these are saying?” Jesus said to them: “Yes. Did you never read this, ‘Out of the mouth of children and infants, you have brought forth praise’?”

 

That is not Jesus actually sending out children to preach from house to house in the way that JW's do it. 

'the boys who were shouting in the temple'. 

So where is a scripture that says Jesus sent out children into the house to house ministry ? 

We can all find scripture and then make it serve our purpose. The GB and the Writing Department do it all the time. But it does not make it right. 

Many children hate the ministry work and they also hate having to take literature into school to give to the teachers etc. 

A few may of course find it fun, buy many hate it. 

@Witness you write some interesting stuff but you always quote Pearl Doxsey. Are you one and the same ?

Or, Is Pearl Doxsey not actually one person but a collection of people ?  A bit like the GB but using only one name. 

I'm not saying I believe all you write but some of it is interesting and makes sense. 

Please do not be upset that i do not believe what you write. I have mentioned before that i don't believe anyone anymore. 

Oh yes Witness, it seems Billy the cowboy think you and I are one person  ...  

43 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Bulter aka Witness

This assumption goes in direct ideology with Witness, Tom, JWinsider suggestion of those that come from behind to upvote after a downvote to be the same people. Tom admitted he uses that kind of deception because it's fun. He strongly believes AllenSith34 used the same tactics. I was able to find evidence this individual used different aliases due to being deleted from this site so many times and was not allowed to use his original alias of AllenSmith, which incidentally I tried, and it is blocked because it is in use according to this website.

So, where would an intelligent person not be able to see the use of a different alias when this site won't allow you to use your own, just like any other person that might have been temporarily removed but then allowed to come back with the same alias they started out with. To this, I say, people need to start to use their brain. Just like Butler stated "I think" the Org tried to stop the charity commission carrying out their investigation in the UK. The same ignorant country and commission that doesn't know their own constitution and laws concerning privacy.

A good example of how humans don't use their brains to think. 😔

You mean the misrepresented video James put out that only obtuse people use as an illustration? Yeah, I wish you had better memory with intelligence since that’s the things I am referring to. I wish the devil wouldn’t blind people but then again, he wouldn’t be the devil if he didn’t, now would he. 😉

 

Therefore, Butler, James, Ryan, Witness can continue shuffling through the internet to post garbage that proves the devil is alive and thriving in this site. 😀

 

This is all so funny. firstly Billy tries to pretend i was disfellowshipped and now he is trying to pretend I'm Witness. 

Wow Billy i think you are panicking or something. Am I just so close to the truth about the GB and it's Org that you cannot stand it any longer ? 

And then you misquote me slyly too. 

Your words Billy "Just like Butler stated "I think" the Org tried to stop the charity commission carrying out their investigation in the UK."

Whereas I actually said 'As for interfering with the police doing their duty, i think it has happened within the JW Org. And the Org tried to stop the Charity Commision carrying out their investigation here in the UK. ' 

Now see the big difference. The sentence about the Charity Commision is a separate sentence.

I know the London UK HQ of JW's tried to stop the Charity Commision investigation.  

Over to you @BillyTheKid46 What will you dream up about me next ? 

By the way I'm in Sidmouth Devon England, i have no idea where Witness or anyone else lives. AND I'm not frightened to use a PHOTO of MYSELF on here.

As for the devil being alive and well, that is surely proved by the CHILD ABUSE / PEDOPHILIA IN THE EARTHWIDE JW ORG.

Go it cowboy. 

59 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

@JohnButler

That would be more accurate. It only makes sense to opposers, not sensible Christians interested in knowing God with biblical truth. That’s why I suggest you first learn to understand scripture before your personal opinion can at least be seen as an opinion.

This way, you will understand the responsibility of spiritually mature men that follow scripture as indicated by scripture under the direction of Christ.

The FACT that you, witness, Srecko and many others here keep implying about the 8 GB is not just obtuse but continues to be inaccurate. Since I agree we are off topic, then DON’T attempt to pursue this ignorance on every topic.

That way, Ryan can understand, being well dressed can be seen as setting someone apart from common society. Find harm or fault with that, aside through malicious ignorance.

 

 

Yes but maybe there are different forms of being 'well dressed'.  Are you a well dressed cowboy Billy ? 

I actually knew a brother that would wear a 'bootlace tie' complete with the bulls head in silver, to the meetings. He had lived in America for some time so don't know if it ok in some KH's over there. This brother wore a lovely jacket with shaping over the shoulders too. Real Western ranch style i would think, but it honestly looked really smart.  Was it appropriate ?  It's not for me to judge, but it looked smart and tidy and modest. And it was an individual choice which i think congregants should be allowed to make. 

25 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

The Watchtower for decades has advised the KH's or branch offices not to interfere with search warrants, by all known BOE letters. Does anyone see such interference? Now that would be news if they did. 😉

Are we going to read how, members are in the backroom burning evidence that apostates claim, just to have the propaganda seem more credible? Can anyone purposely sowing discourse as a dispute against a sect of Christianity be called anointed? 😂

Could anyone disobeying the High Priest and the Sanhedrin be a true servant of God ? Oh yes it was Jesus.

Could anyone condemning the Pharisees be a true servant of God ? Yes once again Jesus.

And which of the disciples/apostles was it said 'We must serve God as ruler rather than men' ? Was it Paul. 

Billy you have no idea. How many times have the Watchtower writers condemned the Catholic Church, and it has been passed as ok by the GB. 

There are how many different types of 'Christianity' ? And you would not 'sow discourse' against any of them ? 

As for interfering with the police doing their duty, i think it has happened within the JW Org. And the Org tried to stop the Charity Commision carrying out their investigation here in the UK. 

As for who is Anointed and who isn't, is it our place to judge ? Let God through Jesus Christ be the judge. 

And wasn't there an actual video of a brother telling Elders to destroy evidence because 'the devil is coming after the Org'. 

I do wish my memory was better on these things. 

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

“Fearing” that something will happen is much less solid than it having happened

”Allegedly” fearing it is a further qualification still. 

Not exactly solid ground you are on, is it, lady?

There is a full court press on, to be sure. If they prove as toothless as your allegations, there is nothing to fret over.

https://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2019/03/a-class-action-suit-in-quebec.html

Like you say Tom nothing is certain until it happens and even then nothing has happened until is if proven, well according to GB rules anyway....  But having feelings about things is surely how police and detectives work. If you don't have suspicion about a crime you would never investigate anything. 

Dream on Tom. 

@BillyTheKid46 I said it would be sensible to me and that you would not think it sensible. 

We are both totally off topic and we will never agree on things concerning God or how God should be served through Christ. 

You say that ", JW’s encourage everyone to KNOW God personally by means of Jesus sacrifice" 

But the memorial is just one occasion per year. The rest of the time JW's try to tell people that they can only serve God through the JW Org. Quite a difference i think. 

Where does any of this factor into that equation when people are NOT willing to follow bible principles.

If you truly believe that the GB and it's Org 'follow bible principles' that is your choice. 

However by doing some research and having an open mind I have found differently. 

As for 'rethinking Christianity', do you just mean knuckle down and do as I'm told by the JW Org ? 

Or do you mean, as I am doing, having an open mind and listening to every one that makes comments here and elsewhere ? 

No i haven't found direction yet. But I haven't given up either. I'm a sinner like any other. However i think I will be dead for a long time before the Judgement Day arrives. I'm prepared to be judged for all my faults and mistakes. God is merciful  and forgiving and so is Jesus Christ. 

I am not in opposition to God or Christ, I'm just in opposition to a false religion or a religion that has gone off track. 

7 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

That just means, the experience you believe you have is obscured by facts. There are children within the numbers. There’s no dispute on that. There are also baptized publishers as well as unbaptized publishers. What percentage accounts for each of those groups?

Are children forced? That’s just an opinion railed in ignorance. Does that mean a Christian Evangelist Parent taking their children to church are forcing their children? How about Catholic parents that want their children to have some kind of spiritual structure. Are they forcing their children to have something GOOD in their lives? Especially those parents that encourage their children to the priesthood.

Your ideology John is so polluted with your hatred, you and witness should seriously consider professional help.

As for the memorial. Everyone is welcomed to attend the memorial to show appreciation to the one who sacrificed himself so that people like you can taint everything Jesus stood for. Even if they don’t attend a Kingdom Hall. It's open to everyone.

You criticized RYAN in another thread about his deranged views when yours are almost the same. The difference is, he owns those delusional thoughts of atheism and he isn’t afraid to express them. His D’fd regardless of what he tells people that he wasn’t? That he just walked away which is utter nonsense, but it doesn’t matter. Can you do the same to a panel of Elders? Ask your friends JWinsider and James. How about Anna? What does anyone think the answer will be?

@BillyTheKid46 OK Billy let's take what you've just written and try to give you sensible answers, well sensible from my viewpoint, as i know anything I write is not sensible to you.

Quote 'the experience you believe you have is obscured by facts.' So what facts do you have exactly ? Because we have seen posts on here showing young children being baptized and mention of young children as young as 3, putting in 'report slips'. I know personally of families of 7, five children, 2 adults, doing ministry. I also know personally of children that have told me they 'hate' the meetings and 'hate' the ministry, but are made to do it. Of course when they say 'hate' they probably mean strongly dislike but it does show their true feelings. I also know teenagers that have left home to get away from the JW 'way of life' and it has caused distress to both parents and to the teenagers. 

Quote 'Are children forced?' Yes they are, but in a bit if fairness it would also be wrong to leave the children at home whilst parents went to meetings or out on the ministry. However if the child does not want to go then it is force. It becomes more like force when the children are paraded around the streets where their school friends live. Do you honestly think that is showing any kind of love to anyone ? 

Quote 'As for the memorial. Everyone is welcomed to attend the memorial to show appreciation to the one who sacrificed himself so that people like you can taint everything Jesus stood for.' 

I wasn't aware that Jesus sacrificed himself for 8 men to pretend they are the 'faithful and discreet slave' and for those 8 men to tell the Anointed not to contact each other and to keep quiet. I thought Jesus died for all of us to have a 'second chance' but especially for the Anointed. Remembering the scripture about 'ten men clinging to the skirt of a Jew' 'saying we will go with you people because we know God is with you'.  I do not see God being with the GB of JW Org. 

As for everyone being welcome at the memorial, yes that is true, but it seems a lot more effort is made to get as many people as possible into a Kingdom hall at that time. I agree that the memorial is important and the more that can 'witness it' the better. But to then use that attendance figure as an 'advertising feature' is a falsehood, as it was only obtained by vast extra effort which only takes place once a year. Many people will gladly accept 'extra fuss' and a free lift to and from the hall, sometimes just because they are lonely and want company. It does not show extra interest in serving God or appreciation for the sacrifice Jesus made. One has to be realistic about these things. 

Your last paragraph mentioning Ryan makes no sense to me. Are you firstly saying that someone said they left the JW Org but you are calling them a liar ? Are you saying they were disfellowshipped but will not admit it ?

Secondly are you also calling me a liar ? Are you trying to pretend I was disfellowshipped ? 

I have mentioned before how I left the JW Org. My ex congregation gave out telephone numbers and email addresses of all Elders. I had a copy of that sheet and i emailed as many Elders that had emails on the sheet.  I also emailed a few brothers to tell them what i was doing and why.  I was then telephoned by one of the elders and asked to attend the Kingdom hall to 'talk it through'. During that meeting at the hall I was asked to sign a printed copy of an email that i had sent. I signed the copy and that was it. When the meeting at the hall started i said I didn't want any prayers or conversation, i just wanted to get the formality over. The Elders were very understanding and it was just a very basic official meeting. The fact that the Elders are not allowed to tell other people that, and that the announcement has to be that 'John Butler is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses', makes no difference to the truth that i left the Org. Anyone that wishes to call me a liar or thinks that i was dis/fed, are just showing their true colours of selfish thinking. 

As for this 'Your ideology John is so polluted with your hatred ... '

I have no ideology. My mind is open to any ideas and thoughts. I consider all things. If my line of thinking happens to be similar to many people in the earth regarding the Child Abuse within the JW Org that is because many people have considered the same evidence and come to the same conclusions. Similarly the shunning and other matters. 

It would seem you have an ideology concerning the GB and the JW Org. You worship both it seems. 

@Space Merchant Quote  The group reports a worldwide membership of approximately 8.58 million adherents involved in evangelism and an annual Memorial attendance of over 20 million.

 We seem to have a misunderstanding. i didn't mean the children were making up (pretending)  the numbers.

I meant that the number of JW's included lots of young children. So the quantity of young children putting in 'Report slips' each month, boosts the total number of JW's. 

The 8.58 million could be half adult, half children.  And many of those children are forced to attend meetings and forced to go on the 'ministry work'.  

As for the Memorial attendance, JW's are told to bring as many people to it as possible. Some of those attending will never go back into a Kingdom hall again. JW's go to people's homes to pick them up and take them to the Kingdom Hall, then take them home again afterward. But most JW's only do that for the one occasion, the Memorial, not on a regular basis. 

I was involved in all of this for many years. I am talking from personal experience, not from just reading what other people write. 

The children are made to suffer mentally. Forced by parents to do things which the children are not ready to do. Hence why so many leave the JW Org as soon as that can. It does not unite families it divides them. 

6 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

“American studies show that Jehovah's Witnesses have the highest turnover of any religion,¹ as supported by Watchtower figures presented in this section.”

Easily compensated for by the high participation rate of those who stick. After all, the members of a great many denominations may not actually leave, but how would you know if they did?

 

 

 

 

Um, Tom, what high participation rate ?  When a person can submit a 'Report slip' for 30 minutes per month. 

When 3 year olds can have 'Report slips' put in for them. 

When children are forced to go on the ministry and then leave the Org asap when they are of age. 

Don't be blinded by numbers Tom, just like SM.  

And it seems the increases are in countries of people with a lower education level. In higher educated countries, or countries where information is more freely available, people are leaving the JW Org. 

Temptation levels are the same earthwide, the devil doesn't just tempt people in higher educated countries. So maybe it's because people in higher educated countries or countries where info is more freely available do more research into the GB and it's Org and also ask more questions and get disturbing answers. 

@Space Merchant I like your word 'adherents'. JW's do support their GB and it's JW Org. Unfortunately they do not serve God through Jesus Christ. 

Now these numbers you seem to love so much are made up of 3 year old children and upwards. Remember all they have to do is get mummy or daddy to put in a 'report slip' in their name, and they become a 'publisher'.  The amount of JW's is counted by the amount of publishers. A person can be a 'publisher' by putting in a report slip with as little as 30 minutes per month on it. 

So if you have a family of 7 people, that is dad, mum, and 5 children aged from 3 years old upward, you can get 7 report slips per month, even if the younger children are forced to do the 'ministry work' by the parents. So don't get so excited about numbers SM, because they mean nothing. 

As for the clothing comment, um, I think you are unwell SM and need a rest. 

The GB and JW Org wouldn't know anything about real love. It's all a front, just cleaning the outside of the bowl whilst  the inside is full of filth. 

Never mind though it keeps the GB in a good lifestyle and the congregants keep putting money in the pot. 

18 hours ago, Outta Here said:

How patronising can you get?

@Outta Here  Yes  i try so hard, just for you. 

1 hour ago, Outta Here said:

Be Strong Convention speaker

Wow are they lowering the standards as they are rapidly losing members ? 

Or is this normal attire for where ever this is ? 

Jack I think you are cracking up man. I dislike the GB and it's JW Org too but I'm not looking to turn against God or His written word.

Matthew 6:9-13 New International Version (NIV)

⁹ “This, then, is how you should pray:

9 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

 

What is the board?

 

Hence my comment that it may not be a good translation, and, it may be fake news. 

4 hours ago, Anna said:

This claim is actually totally false.

You think so ?   JW's being 'no part of the world' etc. 

However do you think the article is true ? 

If it is is seems totally out of character. 

2 points.

1. this was translated into English so may not be completely accurately translated 

2. It may be fake news. 

This seems to be some interesting news from RTL News, if it's true  

Jehovah's Witnesses call on members to cooperate in investigations of abuse

The board of Jehovah's Witnesses Netherlands has called on its members to participate in research at Utrecht University into sexual abuse within the organization. The appeal is remarkable because the denomination normally avoids contact with non-ecclesiastical authorities.