JOHN BUTLER

12 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

This is true for every book, with the exception of my own, where each new word is a refreshing delight.

$ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ $ This time next year you'll be a millionaire   

To be sure, Richard Dawkins was speaking of non-penetrative abuse, but he has written in his book The God Delusion that he thinks the whole impact of CSA is vastly overstated. It happened to him and he got over it.

Did he get over it though ? Does anyone get over it ? 

In my opinion, everything that happens in our lives shapes who we are. So even if we can 'handle a situation' it does not mean that the situation has not shaped our lives a little bit. 

Once again if a person writes a book to earn themselves money, why should I trust their opinion ? 

Ecclesiastes 12 v 12

 As for anything besides these, my son, be warned: To the making of many books there is no end, and much devotion to them is wearisome to the flesh.

This brings me to an interesting question then.

Can anyone baptise anyone else ?  If not then it brings  us back to the Clergy Class once more. 

So, does a person need to be part of an Organisation to be able to baptise others ? 

If we go back to Russell or Rutherford, whichever one of them it was that said an Organisation was not needed, then did they baptise others, even though they were not part of an Organisation ?

And another question. What makes a person a Minister of God's word ?  Or a person able to baptise others ? 

When you've been a JW and you've seen things first hand it's quite funny to read other people's ideas that have not been in the situations. 

Here in the UK congregations are quite competitive and baptisms is one way. At assemblies there is always this 'excitement' about which congregation will be having someone baptised. Two of our daughters (both over twenty) got baptised, one in each of two consecutive assemblies. At one of the assemblies one of our daughters was the only person baptised and so she had the baptism talk 'all to herself', though of course it was to the whole assembly. But it was noticeable that some people were not too happy. Once again I know what some here will say, they will say it is all in my mind :) 

However, in my opinion, a lot of baptisms of children are for the wrong reasons. Competition within a congregation and competition between one congregation and another. It's not healthy, and not spiritually good, to have such competition. So you folks that think it's ok for 5 year olds, well it's your way of thinking. But is it God's way of thinking ? Because that is what is most important. 

I will agree that it is all very difficult to deal with, for the Org and for the victims. Do i know any answers, no I don't. 

It's just such a shame that the JW Org is in such a mess. 

And like you say Billy it seems the lawyers are just using the victims as a way of earning more cash for themselves. 

Yes the sun is shining here, I'm in a better frame of mind. :) Have a good day all. 

58 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Yes, but it means nothing. You have frankly said that you don’t trust anybody in any capacity, anywhere, at all. Everyone has some whom they they trust. You have admitted to having no one. It long pre-dates any association with Jehovah’s Witnesses.

It’s very sad and you are taking no actions to fix that situation here.

Moreover, you do not perceive that such a tragedy may just have resulted in warped judgement.

Actually Tom i do agree with you about warped judgement.

Because all humans are mentally unbalanced. Because we are all imperfect. Any one that thinks he/she is mentally all good, is only deceiving themselves. It's one reason we cannot judge ourselves correctly. Because we only see what we want to see or judge by what we ourselves know. I've long since given up on trying to figure myself out. 

However i haven't given up on trying to warn other people about things that i have personal experience with. I might not trust anyone but it does not mean i hate everyone. It just means that i have no warm feelings toward anyone. I could never love anyone. There is a neutral point, a non feeling. Some of us have to have that to survive Tom. 

So my happiness comes from small things, like seeing birds in the garden, driving one of my cars, walking on the beach in the sunshine, exercising, the list is endless. I don't need people to make me happy. I do wonder however, 1. If  i will get a resurrection, and 2. how i will cope with people in the New World'.  If 1. doesn't happen then 2. won't be a problem. And the KId tells me I'm beyond hope. 

But, just a question Tom. How many people do you think have been sexually abused within the JW Org Earthwide in the last 50 years? 

Because most of them will now have a 'warped judgement' about life. 

And they will have been sexually abused by a JW that had a warped judgement about their right to abuse another human. . 

Tom I'm an EX JW. I don't need to read it anywhere. I saw it regularly at Honiton, East Devon, England, Kingdom Hall.  

As I've said I'm not interested in returning to the place. I thought I had friends, but they were just 'brothers and sisters', not friends. I would never trust any of them again. And I never trusted the Elderes anyway. I don't trust any policemen in the Org or out of it. 

There is no point in me telling you stuff as it just gets me accused of being a liar, or off making it up. (It gives the Kid something to whine about too)  But, the reason being that you and others have your minds set on the Org being full of good people. Truth is, the Org is not full of good people Tom. It seems full of people that just want to serve the GB through the Elders. So if the Elders are bad then the congregation are bad. 

I've seen a congregation in Bristol England that was run by two Elders. A father and his son. All the other Elders just did as they were told. 

Anyway Tom you are giving it your second shot. So give me three scriptures that directly say that no one should talk to a ex-JW when they walk into a Kingdom Hall. 

No matter how much you write Tom it does not make you right. And all this above is only your opinion. 

I only read half and nearly fell asleep. :) 

@TrueTomHarley I don't agree with massive payouts but i do agree with a payout of a reasonable amount, and an apology would be nice too :) . However I suppose everyone's idea of reasonable is different. 

I would be lying if i said I wouldn't accept payout for what I suffered, but those responsible are probably dead and gone and will get a resurrection like anyone else. Money can't bring lasting happiness but it could take away the pain for a while.  

And i also think that it should be made easier for anyone wanting to return to the 'fold'. Not that i want to but some might. I cannot see any basis for having to attend a KH for weeks whilst no one is allowed to talk to you, and everyone looks down on you, until the Elders give the signal that it's ok. Where is the love there ?  

So listening to you all patting each other on the back I conclude that all of you are saying that everyone that says they are a Victim of child abuse in the JW Org is actually a LIAR. They all made it up, every one of them Earthwide. 

So in your eyes, the GB never refused to hand over evidence to the courts. The Elders have never been told to destroy evidence because 'Satan is coming after us'. The Two Witness rule has never been misused . Victims have never been called liars. Children have never been forced to face the accused Child Abuser.  Nobody has been disfellowshipped for continuing to complain about abuse they suffered not being dealt with properly.  Everybody in a congregation is made aware that there is a Pedophile with in it.  

And the biggest one of all, you think Victims are only in it for the Money.  

And most of you use the GB tactics of saying I'm mentally disturbed. 

Um, it's proving to me more and more that the JW org brain deadens people. 

But you don't care because to you lot it's just collateral damage. 

13 hours ago, Anna said:

Just noticed this post John. Yes, I acknowledge the org. has made mistakes, and I am sure no Witness on here would deny that the org. has made mistakes, why, even the org. itself acknowledges it has made mistakes. But you on the other hand are saying that the org. is tantamount to Satan's spawn. I don't think that.

 

 

What I'm saying quite clearly is that the GB and It's people in positions of responsibility including the Elders have not only made mistakes, but have deliberately taken action to hide Pedophiles within the JW Org / Watchtower Soc'. And deliberately misused scripture.

Now if you choose to translate that into Satan's spawn (which actually means nothing to me) then that is your choice. 

I do think the Devil is working within the JW Org by misleading the GB, many Elders and others. I am not saying that the JW Org could not be saved however. 

Look, keep in mind that the Nation of Israel literally offered children in the fire to Molech, a false god. Do you honestly think the JW org is untouchable by Satan ? 

13 hours ago, Anna said:

I've given up now, as I am sure you will shortly. But what I do want to know from you @John Butler is any news on your report to the Police?

 

 

No news and I've contacted them twice 

Oh well. Keep serving your GB and the JW Org. God will decide whom He will use and whom He won't use. 

TTH gets his kicks from writing stories and the Kid gets his kicks from just being plain nasty. 

Anna seems to sit on the fence as I'm sure she has told me of things that she knows about, that are just plain wrong in the Org. But then she seems to condemn me for saying similar things. 

In truth we can only tell it as we each see it. 

Tom i do wish you would show me some of these things you 'quote' about me. Otherwise it's all pie in the sky. 

I generally comment on one comment at a time. Therefore if someone says something i agree with I will upvote it, and if that same person says something i totally disagree with i will down vote it. I am not interested in praising or knocking a person. i praise or knock a comment. I do not worship people. 

I walked away from worshipping people when i left the JW Org. Of course i didn't realise that I was worshipping people at the time I was in the Org. It's only when i saw the contrast of being out of the Org that it made sense. The not believing every word I had been taught was a great relief. However you people cannot have that relief, and that is clearly seen by your attitudes. It must be difficult for you all having to keep up this defence of the GB and it's Org, when you know in truth that the GB are not who they pretend to be and the Org has so many faults. 

Quote @TrueTomHarley "No more than the motorist uses the posted speed limit sign as an “excuse” to explain why he was driving that fast."

Here we can see how Tom calmly compares a speeding motorist with a Pedophile that has abused a young child. What does this tell you of his lack of feeling for other people ? Where is his personal application of the scripture that talks about 'Looking after widows and orphans'. Where is his idea of protecting children in the JW Org ? Nothing, it's just like speeding motorist to him. 

Tom and others, the JW Org has said it does not have a Clergy Class. But it uses the Clergy privilege to avoid giving evidence in court. That is hypocritical. 

Now as for : Quote "I might have inferred this based upon your constant remarks that one does not need an organization or GB.." 

Actually I've constantly said 'if God wants to use the JW Org then God will clean it out properly' and I've said that the GB should consist of 12 or 13 men from different countries around the Earth. I've said that the current GB should be replaced. 

Was it Rutherford or Russell that said an organisation was not needed ? Whichever it wasn't me. Unless you can quote me as saying it ? 

As for Elders serving because they want 'power and control', yes i think many of them do. Especially the ones that are Pedophiles. 

When an Elder is using a dating website and using the name Yogi Bishop, and using a pretend 'hometown',  then I would think he is not an Elder for the right reasons. (That's one for the Kid, one of the real life issues that i know about). 

For me there is no bravery in telling people that I've been sexually abused, physically beaten up and emotionally abused as a child / teenager. It has a purpose. If I'm a pain in the bum, then people will know why. It's because it is impossible to 'get over it'. 

That is why I don't like seeing it happen to others. But it seems that a lot of you just see it as collateral damage.  You see it as, well it's only a few hundred out of 8 million, so in your eyes it doesn't matter. And even those few hundred you basically call liars. 

It's Your conscience. If you are happy with your gods, the GB and it's Org, then so be it. Yes i can understand that Almighty God needs a means of communication, But He needs a pure clean organisation and at this time that is not the JW org. 

9 minutes ago, Anna said:

Obviously it's aimed at everyone, otherwise the elders would receive this information in the form of a letter to the body of elders. So I don't know what point you are trying to make...?

I think the word is diplomacy. But basically 'if the cap fits wear it'. 

It's letting the congregants know that the Elders are being told.

What's that saying. 'It's not enough that justice is done, but that justice has to be seen to be done'. The congregants need to have some sort of confidence restored it seems. 

Also, as all 'Letters to Elders' are now freely available online, it would be seen as accepting that the Elders have very often been the cause of the suffering of the victims. 

Remember that the JW Org is just like a political party looking for votes. The difference is that the JW Org needs congregants that will pour money into the Org. So it is important for the Org to clean up it's act. This Watchtower is just one way of making it look like the GB are actually doing something positive. 

Does it mention destruction of evidence in this Watchtower. Or does it mention The clergy–penitent privilege, clergy privilege, confessional privilege, priest–penitent privilege, clergyman–communicant privilege, or ecclesiastical privilegeis a rule of evidence that forbids judicial inquiry into certain communications (spoken or otherwise) between clergy and members of their congregation. ??? 

Probably not. 

2 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Really, I don’t see it. You’re just a waste of time. I believe TTH made it to where he thinks you still have a viable soul. I don’t. You lost that right to call yourself a Christain. Therefore, you are once again a tax collector (Pagan). That’s why your mockery and inclinations are meaningless. Please! downvote me. I find your hypocrisy humorous. 😂 

You don't see it.  What don't you see and what should i have to prove to you ? You are a funny person Kid. 

Once again you make sweeping statements which mean nothing. And you judge me as if you have been given that right by God Himself. You are so so funny Kid. So immature. 

Tell me oh clever one. How did I lose the right to call myself a Christian ?  

And you seem to have got mixed up with your definition of Tax Collector. A Tax Collector was an Israelite that worked for the Romans collecting taxes from other Israelites. They were not Pagans... Matthew was a Tax Collector yet Jesus called Matthew to be his follower. 

Hope you get better soon Kid. Try losing the bitterness in your heart, it does show through so much. 

To the rest of you that feel the need to rally round and stick up for the ones you worship. The GB and it Org.

You are completely missing the point of this Watchtower. It is aimed at the Elders.

It is not so that congregants can know what to do. IT IS TO TELL THE ELDERS TO BACK OFF. TO TELL THE ELDERS. NOT TO TELL THE CONGREGANTS TO KEEP QUIET. 

BECAUSE IT SEEMS THE ELDERS WERE TELLING THE CONGREGANTS NOT TO REPORT THINGS TO THE POLICE OR THE AUTHORITIES. 

UNLESS AS I'VE SAID BEFORE, YOU ARE CALLING ALL THE VICTIMS LIARS. 

And for the Kid, yes Kid experience is better than second hand information, but Kid i have both. 

@TrueTomHarley    Quote "I had you in mind when I wrote the above, John, and I honestly feel sorry for you."

Nice of you to think about me Tom. Thank you. But feeling sorry for someone is such a negative attitude, and in your case i feel the sorrow is not genuine. Why ? 

Quote "Though apparently wrapped in a newfound ‘personal relationship with Jesus,’ "  That is sarcasm Tom and shows your lack of 'feeling sorry for me'  I do not have a 'personal relationship with Jesus', nor do i pretend to have.  Can you quote me as saying that i have ? 

I have always thought that individuals should pray to God through Jesus Christ. And surely all Christians should pray in such a way on a daily basis ? I went into our back garden early this morning and put food out for the birds, and when birds arrived i thanked God for the happiness those birds bring to humans. Just watching those birds in the garden, such a simple thing, but it gives me such pleasure. Now God must have built that into humans to like or love animals / birds / creatures. So in that way you could say we all have a 'personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ', or would you not agree ? 

If you don't agree that people can have such a relationship with God and Christ then it seems as if you are saying that a person can only give praise twice a week, that being at JW meetings............. Now that creates a Clergy Class doesn't it ? 

But oh yes that reminds me Clergy Class, Clergy privilege. 

The clergy–penitent privilege, clergy privilege, confessional privilege, priest–penitent privilege, clergyman–communicant privilege, or ecclesiastical privilegeis a rule of evidence that forbids judicial inquiry into certain communications (spoken or otherwise) between clergy and members of their congregation.

I do believe that Elders are using this 'excuse' to refuse to give evidence in court cases. Am I right in this thinking ? 

But of course the JW Org does not have a 'Clergy Class' does it ? Contradiction i think. 

Author of two free ebooks, one on opposition to the Witness work in Russia, one on opposition in Western lands.

Tom I found this for you  :) 

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Poor old Tom. He makes statements that he cannot prove. He paints all ex-JW's with the same colour as he is too frightened to look at them as being individuals. He generalises so much that he makes himself look stupid. 

And for an author that wants to be taken seriously he really lets himself down with his over emotional rant. 

Anyone taking Tom seriously and anyone believing Tom's words needs to get back into the real world. 

It would be too easy to shoot Tom down on what he has written above, but for those that want to believe Tom it would not make any difference. It looks to be out of emotional guilt that he needed to write so much. Poor Tom. 

And i thought the Org had a clever legal system. They must have known they were breaking the Law. 

Trying to make dishonesty pay once again. They don't seem to learn much do they  

3 hours ago, Anna said:

So who runs Watchtower?

God and Jesus Christ definitely don't, that's for sure . 

It's run by 8 men who are mainly american and mainly white. 

That tells a lot about an org. 

@TrueTomHarley  You know you may even be a good author, it's the way you twist things and use sarcasm to try to hide the truth.

Are you calling Queen Esther a liar ? And Jack also ?   Isn't the proof being put in front of your own eyes ? 

But, there is none so blind as those that do not want to see.  Keep selling your books Tom it's all you are really interested in anyway. 

But I think you've shot yourself in the foot by admitting this :-

Quote : Come, come, John. Around ten is the age that ones may present themselves for baptism, and mid-teens is more typical. Participation in the ministry can start earlier.

Witness HQ counts it by the number who are doing what the name says. How many are ‘witnessing’ for Jehovah? That will be revealed in how many report field service.

You have therefore confirmed what i said. Under 10 year olds can have a Field Service Report put in by their parents and it will be counted. And they start at 3 years old Tom. 

It's not about 'pumping up the numbers' Tom, it's about trying to hide how many are leaving the JW Org. 

Replacing the number of adults in the Org with children, by counting the children as proper JW's, and people outside will not know the difference. It's about 'show' Tom, and you know it. 

It's all a front. Pretending the JW Org is clean and pretending the JW Org has a healthy number of members. 

But it only works to fool those in the world that do not understand how bad the JW Org really is. 

2014 was a long time ago regarding the Child Abuse issues. It has become mainstream news now so the Gb and it's Org lost that battle to keep it all secret. Hence a lot more people over 16 or 18 would have left the Org by now. And been replaced by 3 and 5 years olds it seems. 

Until last year I never really thought about how they count the amount of JW's in the Org. I just thought they kept numbers of all those that are baptised. However I read online somewhere that a 'prominent' JW said that the number of JW's is counted by the number of monthly reports going in. He said it was more important to count 'active' members than baptised members. Can't remember who said it as it wasn't important to me at the time. But now seeing all this about 3 and 5 years olds it does make me think how desperate the GB and the Org are. 

By the way, Srecko is right you completely miss the meaning of the scripture you used. The scripture is talking about adults lowering their pride and becoming like children. 

Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the Kingdom of God like a young child will by no means enter into it.” 

Jesus was usingthe young children as showing humility. But i don't expect you to understand that. 

@Outta Here  said "Rubbish! You're outside the camp, under reprimand.....accept it!"  

Wow see the humility there  NO................... Who is Srecko supposed to be 'under reprimand' by ? 

You see Outta Here, all that shows is you worship of the GB and it's JW Org. I see no signs that Srecko is not still a worshipper of God, therefore God, through Jesus Christ is judge, not you Outta Here.

Quote @Outta Here  "Oh come on please. How does this observation of the obvious show any kind of insight? They are just like you surely? Start off for whatever reasons, then fizzle out for whatever reasons. Just as the apostle John stated centuries ago."

Well no actually. Children born into JW families are forced to go to meetings and to 'pre-study' etc. It is difficult for parents and for the children. Meetings have gradually got shorter so it gets a bit easier of course. But assemblies are chaos, for parents and children alike. Please remember I had years in the JW Org, so I talk from some experience. Experience of seeing other parents struggling with children and having done so myself, with two families.... And having seen many teenagers leave the Org as soon as they were able.  

On 2/5/2019 at 7:59 PM, Outta Here said:

Yep. We're really desperate, and competitive. All losers excluded!!!

It would be so lovely if it were possible to know how many JW's are under 16 years old. 

Because when a lot of them reach 16 they leave home and leave the JW Org. Kinda proves they are only in there because of pressure from parents. And some only get baptised because they have made some kind of 'deal' with parents to get other privileges at home... 

And here in the UK it seems very difficult to get young men to take on any responsibility in the Org. There will probably be a shortage of Elders and M/s soon. In fact i know of one congregation where a brother does the work of 3 because of lack of m/s or elders to help out. 

I am finding it a real pain not being able to give facts on here, but I don't want to get other people into trouble with their bosses / elders.