JOHN BUTLER

2 hours ago, Equivocation said:

Loss of words? My uncle isn't someone to be laughed at. Everything I said is also fact. You drive your head too far deep in the sand to not realize not everyone is like you or had the life that you had. Are you this ignorance of others outside the United Kingdom where you live? You must be the life of the party, Johnny 5.

Go back to pretending that you live in the 'hood' with all the coke dealers and gun runners. If that is your dream world so be it. 

If you came from a rough tough background you wouldn't keep using childish names. The bro in de hood would all laugh at you man. 

You ain't no big deal ya dig. 

Case No 1. 

Quote "In 2010, before her husband became an Elder in their congregation, the abuse escalated even more. One of her sons, then 15, couldn’t take it any more."

It would appear that the Elders didn't act because the 'husband' was an Elder.  This seems to follow a pattern where Elders stick together to help each other when one is in trouble. 

What happened to the scripture about looking after 'widows and orphans', because this woman and her children were almost a 'widow and orphans' in the fact that the husband/father was not doing his duty of protecting them, but was in fact causing injury to them. 

The facts of him causing injury seem clear enough from medical reports and police evidence. 

but the black cat still blindly sticks up for the JW Org. 

8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The download is free.in EPUB or PDF.

It's easy to see when a person in not sincere, when they just keep promoting their own book, instead of promoting God and Jesus Christ and God's own book. 

13 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Yesterday in service there was one of those pissy little yappy dogs nipping at my pant leg. I was annoyed with its strength.

You overestimate yourself, John.

From you I take that as a compliment.

However I don't overestimate God and Jesus Christ. They will sort it all out in their own time. 

Have a good day Tom.  

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Well, there you go then. Coordinated effort such as under the direction of the GB can result in real spiritual benefits to people around the world, particularly in developing lands.

You sitting ALONE in your hut cannot, even if you are tight with Jesus.

I think it is the selfishness of the independent course that most annoys me. 

you would be funny to some distorted minds. 

I was part of the JW Org. I am now on my own as someone seeking truth. But you would just be happy to distort everything I say because you know I'm right in most things. 

I think the Catholic church have  'Coordinated effort' too, and possibly the Protestants / Anglicans and more. So coordinated effort does not mean much. Even armed forces from different countries get together to go and kill people. You might call that coordinated effort. 

" particularly in developing lands. " Of course you mean less educated and more desperate people. Easier to 'convert' to JW's. 

If the GB were really the F&DS then yes, and if they told the truth, and if they were guided by God's Holy Spirit, and if they kept the Org clean instead of 'only washing the outside of the dish', then yes. But they are not, and therefore cannot. 

It's not my selfishness that annoys you TTH, it's my strength. My faith in God and Christ is still strong even though I have no human I can trust. 

5 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Come, come. This is why your side becomes disorganized rabble, each person flailing away, and ultimately accomplishing little. Worse, they soon take sides over the many divisive issues of this system and are presently at each other’s throats—despite each one’s ‘personal relationship with Jesus.’

Every project needs direction and someone to lead. It is no more complicated than that. Refraining from critiquing them over every little thing is not the same as ‘worshipping’ them.

Many have tried to explain this to you, to no end. For the life of me, I cannot bring myself to explain something so obvious.

You poor man. You cannot stand the point that I AM AN INDIVIDUAL.

You always harp back to things like "your side becomes disorganized rabble"

Tom, i do not have a 'side'.  Please get it through your head that i act totally ALONE. 

Um Tom, does that cause you a problem with your BOOKS ?  Does it mean you may have to rethink and rewrite some of it ? 

You pretend that you know everything about ex-JW's, or apostates as you like to call them. But in truth you probably know very little, or more to the point you only know what you want to know. 

"Every project needs direction and someone to lead.    8 basically American men, where you could have 12 or more men from around the Earth. The Anointed are many and widespread it seems. 

And, the GB / Writing dept / JW Org, leaves itself wide open to inspection and criticism. 

38 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

No John. I keep a slave at home. In some respects I am behind the times.

And you need an OUTLINE to give a talk at a funeral ?  

You people really are puppets. 

And you were saying the other day that the GB / Org is not controlling ?

But they want you to stick to an outline to give a funeral talk and they much prefer you to be an Elder or M/S ? 

Bit of contradiction me thinks.. 

To quote TTH " I do not ever say that the slave is wrong. It is not my place, even were I to think it. "

This is so sad as I presume he is talking about the Governing Body. 

Psalm 146

 ³  Do not put your trust in princes Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation.

Remember that Tom. Those 8 men are only men. They are not God nor Jesus Christ. 

And ''if' they form part of the Anointed, they are only a tiny part of it. 

To quote the pussycat CA 

²⁶  If any man thinks he is a worshipper of God but does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he is deceiving his own heart, and his worship is futile.

Ah but if you then look at the next verse 

²⁷  The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.

Um, GB and JW Org complete FAILURE  

Oh dear poor olde Tom is having a bad day. 

Congregations are getting smaller. Older people are dying. Younger people are leaving. Sensible people are leaving too. Then some are getting disfellowshipped.  

Because of the warnings now being given Earthwide about the Child Abuse / Pedophile issues, less people are visiting KH's and less people are joining the JW Org. 

The GB / JW Org act like politicians, fiddling figures to pretend there is an increase, but sensible folk know the truth, numbers are dwindling. 

Hence they are baptising 5 year olds and allowing 3 year olds to put in report slips for ministry service. 

But with all of that it's just showing an increase of children not adults. 

I do know that here in UK they are selling Kingdom Halls too.  My ex congregation used to have it's own meeting place in Sidmouth, and Honiton congregation was completely separate. Now it's two in one, and you would think that would have doubled the numbers, but no, the KH has less now than when they first joined together. 120 congregants for two congregations in one, isn't a lot. 

In Reading Berkshire they sold a KH last year and that has now meant three congregations using one hall. Some people have to travel a long way across town, probably getting two busses each way. Many are old folks that find it difficult to travel. 

I'm interested in this :-  dissolving of 16 cong's..  How and where are they going ? How big were the congregations ? 

My goodness, if peeps can't handle this forum then how do they handle the real ministry ? 

As for me, Tom, can you honestly show me any reason I should be removed ?

Have I been any more direct than Jesus was with the Pharisees ?

I've just given as good and I've taken. Some of it just  mudslinging which i know is pointless but it is a sort of stress relief. 

 Quote "It is very hard for me to justify why he was thrown overboard and the equally bombastic Rook and shrill Butler were not. "

Perhaps the forum should come with a massive warning, 'IT'S A HOT KITCHEN, IF YOU DON'T LIKE HEAT THEN KEEP OUT'

Quote TTH :-

"I wrote the book on apostates.

Literally.

’TrueTom vs the Apostates”

Everything there is to be known about them I know."

Ah but only from your viewpoint. And only with a view of being famous for writing such a book. 

Self recommendation i think Tom. 

Quote TTH  " Remember, ALL of us are apostate if you stretch the word too far, for Bethel clearly prefers we abstain from sites of off the grid spiritualality and yet here we are. "

Oh dear thar word APOSTATE. 

Quote TTH ".. haters.. "  Please elaborate.  Who are these so called 'haters' ?  

What do they hate, in you opinion ? 

42 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I did explain. All you had to do was read the next sentence.

You avoid answering the questions I asked though and that was what i wanted you to explain, as you well know. 

Quote TTH. "Opposers say ALMOST TO THE PERSON that Jehovah’s Witnesses are ‘controlling’ "

Opposers do this opposers do that. Apostates do this, apostates do that.

Dear old TTH, he loves to generalise.  Tom, everyone is an individual.

Haven't you watched 'Life Of Brian' ? We're all individuals. 

However if ten people saw a vehicle accident happen and had to give a report to the police, they would all probably give similar accounts.

If you have 50 ex JW's, they will each have their own experiences. If all 50 of them found the Org to be controlling then doesn't that tell you something ?  If you are not blind or deaf, it should tell you that those 50 people found the JW Org to be controlling. 

The only way JW's can get out of that control is by not completely obeying the 'rules'. And it seems that you are saying that the rules are not always enforced. BUT the rules are there none the less. 

Quote TTH "We do cut people slack in most areas."   Please explain.

WHO cuts people slack ? What slack are they cutting ? Do you mean that Elders allow congregants to break the rules ?

So are you admitting that there are those rules in place ?

If so, having those rules in place, is controlling. 

Yes I know we all have to obey rules in everyday life. For instance, which side of the road we drive on, stopping at red lights. 

But the superior authorities will admit they put rules in place, so they are controlling.

So why won't the GB of JW Org ,and you, admit that the Org is controlling ? After all isn't it supposed to be that way ? 

If there are rules it is for the purpose of having control. 

Quote TTH "From my point of view, that is almost the sole purpose of this site. "

Plus belittling people. Making fun of important issues,

And advertising your books. 

And from my viewpoint the 'one of good heart' seeks only truth and justice, along with mercy and honesty. And in doing so looks to God through Jesus Christ for the guidance of holy spirit. Also reading and believing God's word, not mans.  

They do not take the easy, cowardly, way out, by serving 'A body of men' and hiding in an organisation that they know is dishonest and has no true love in it. 

13 hours ago, Anna said:

 

Yes, historical according to time. Doesn't matter that the court case happened "today" because it was discussing a historical case that happened:

 

Well, then those elders  don't have a leg to stand on do they?

paragraph 14:  https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-study-may-2019/love-justice-face-of-wickedness/

" Elders assure victims and their parents and others with knowledge of the  matter that they are free to report an allegation of abuse to the secular authorities. But what if the report is about someone who is a part of the congregation and the matter then becomes known in the community? Should the Christian who reported it feel that he has brought reproach on God’s name? No. The abuser is the one who brings reproach on God’s name".

Does anyone need it clearer than that???

Also:

@JOHN BUTLER

In chapter 12 of the 2019 shepherding the flock book is this statement:

"One who reports an accusation to the police, the court, the elders,

or others who have authority to look into matters and render

a judgment would not be viewed by the congregation as guilty

of committing slander. (it-1 p. 990) This is true even if the accusation is not proved".

 

Wow it seems that everyone has got a copy of the 2019 Shepherding the Flock book. 

Can i have one please ? 

20 minutes ago, Anna said:

Ok, you don't want to discuss it, fair enough, although you were the one who brought the two witness rule up and said it was a problem.

So I will reiterate for others in case it is not clear to them either:

The two witness rule only applies to the elders handling an accusation of child abuse in the congregation. The two witness rule does not prevent anyone from taking the matter to the police as stated clearly in par 15 of the study WT May 2019 : https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-study-may-2019/love-justice-face-of-wickedness/

which says: .".......Does this mean that before an allegation of abuse can be reported to the authorities, two witnesses are required? No. This requirement does not apply to whether elders or others report allegations of a crime.

I am not quite sure, because John won't explain, so I will have to guess: Despite this clear black on white statement in the WT, it seems that John's concern was that elders would not actually follow through. Well....I would think that since this WT article is going to be studied by almost all of Jehovah's Witnesses, then I would think that any one of those Jehovah's Witnesses would feel free to report an allegation to the authorities even if there were no two witnesses, in other words even if the elders were unable to handle the situation congregationally because of a lack of two witnesses. So IF an elder for some reason would feel that a publisher should not report it, because there isn't enough evidence, (two witnesses) then all the publisher has to do is show him this clear statement in the WT. Done.

( WELL you are the one now using my name so i will respond to 'others' in case it is not clear. )

And if an Elder should want to hide or destroy evidence in the form of written notes he will. And i think that a video was put up on this forum to show a brother in some position of authority telling elders to destroy evidence. That brother used the excuse that 'satan was coming after the organisation'.  Of course what he really meant was 'this is going to cost the Org lots of money and give it a really bad name' ... '

Also I believe that in the Netherlands, Police invaded the HQ and some Kingdom Halls and a couple of homes, searching for such evidence / documents, as proof of Child Abuse happenings. 

At the headquarters of Jehova's Witnesses in Emmen, an invasion took place on 19 November due to a large-scale investigation into sexual abuse.

My son watched the film 1984, and he said those in charge would say there was 'a variation' in different things, but it actually meant there was a lesser amount being offered for the same cost... When our rent goes up the Council use that same word 'variation' instead of rise in cost. Do you understand where I'm coming from ?  The GB of JW Org is just doing the same thing as the world does, playing with words to serve their own purpose..

There are 'whistleblowers' in the world to show us how bad the ruling classes treat the lower classes. 

I am very pleased that there are 'Whistleblowers' within the JW Org too, to prove how bad the GB and the Org really is.

TTH pretends all is well and Anna backs up his every comment like a parrot. But in truth we know, nothing has changed. It's just playing with words. Something which TTH loves to do. 

So i will repeat. IF AN ELDER COMMITS CHILD ABUSE AND THERE ARE NOT TWO WITNESSES TO PROVE HE DID IT, THEN HE WILL GET AWAY WITH IT BECAUSE HIS FELLOW ELDERS WILL RALLY ROUND HIM TO 'PROTEST' HIM.  THERE WILL NOT BE A PROPER ENQUIRY / INQUIRY TO THE SITUATION AS THE ELDERS WILL SAY THERE IS NO INTERNAL CASE TO ANSWER. THEREFORE THE ABUSER ELDER WILL STILL KEEP HIS 'STATION' AND HIS STATUS. THE VICTIM WILL BE SEEN AS A LIAR AND / OR SLANDERER AND WILL BE SHUNNED BY OTHERS IN THE CONGREGATION. IF THE VICTIM CONTINUES TO COMPLAIN THEY WILL BE DISFELLOWSHIPPED. 

Simple enough for you all to understand I hope. I thought some of you needed capitals as you seem to find it difficult to read and understand things. 

9 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

Jesus could have been baptized earlier, though. He was dedicated to Jehovah from infancy and he pleased God and men throughout his youth. Luke 2:51,52.  The legal age for taking up the profession of priest was about 30 years. Since he was king/priest designate, he took it up at that time officially.

I think you have actually proved my point thanks. 

" The legal age for taking up the profession of priest was about 30 years. "

And that was when Jesus got baptised.  

It's quite funny how some folks want to use the Bible situations as examples, but only when it suits them. 

31 minutes ago, Outta Here said:

You have a higher % of sextalk in your postings than WT material though.

That is a pointless accusation as usual from you.

And as W/t material has been in production for far longer than i've been on this forum, you are obviously wrong.

But for person that hides behind a pussy, I don't expect anything better  

18 minutes ago, Outta Here said:

Do you think this made him more accountable?

I think it was all perfectly timed just as God wanted it to take place.

However I think it was a good example of a mature age for reasoning on the scriptures and communicating with God through prayer. 

As Jesus was and still is perfect his ability to think properly has always been perfect.

As humans today are all mentally unbalanced, due to our imperfections, then it seems sensible to wait to be of a mature age to at least give ourselves some chance of trying to serve God properly. 

Some of us may think we are mature, but self assessment is seldom a good recommendation. 

I think another interesting factor also, is that when numbers /quantities of people, are mentioned in the Greek scriptures, it tends to refer to grown adult men. As in feeding the five thousand. And I think at one point, but maybe not now, when the number of people in the Kingdom Hall was counted, it would be only the adults counted. 

So in many cases there seems to be recommendation for waiting to get baptised until a person is of a mature age. 

I think Jesus was only accountable to God. 

37 minutes ago, Anna said:

I was just trying to remind you of our last conversation that we had, since you said you were lost....

Not that lost. I do remember saying that I would not bother conversing with you on the matter as you seemed to deliberately 'not understand' my viewpoint. 

Anyway you and TTH seem to have it all sewn up  . Bodyguards for the GB  

And as i love to say to folks. We will have to agree to differ. 

10 minutes ago, Outta Here said:

You too, it appears.

Just pointing out the facts that the GB / Writing dept' seem to need to write about it all.

I would think a true Christian has enough advice and direction in God's word. 

But the GB obviously needs to think up something to write about to put up a smoke screen for them to hide behind. 

8 minutes ago, Anna said:

@JOHN BUTLER

I wanted to know why you were so upset over this conversation we had about the two witness rule:

 

 

Well, to quote a fave' group/band of mine  "You can't always get what ya' want "