JOHN BUTLER

11 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

In fact, the problem is solved and everyone not completely unhinged knows it.

Witnesses have always been free to report. The unsettling aspect of the CSA cases is that many chose not to do it because they thought they might be bringing reproach on God’s name. Now, beyond any possibility of misunderstanding, it is spelled out for them and for elders that they are not. The problem is solved.

There are always going to be ‘What ifs.’ At some point one must have some confidence in the power of parents to be concerned for their children. It is not easy to get between a mama bear and her cub. You make it sound like a walk in the park. Reporting to authorities has now been endorsed. The two witness rule becomes irrelevant, as it always was to outside authorities 

In the rare situation that nobody has payed the slightest attention to Christian values taught, if wrath or revenge is feared, mama bear may have to flee the house. This has always been the case with in abusive families. The point is that she now knows she has a green light to do it, and can summon whatever authority there is for domestic violence and she need not think she is failing God, the congregation, her family, or anyone else.

Sometimes I think that these virulent opposers will not be satified until there is a cop stationed in every Witness home.

Quote "The unsettling aspect of the CSA cases is that many chose not to do it because they thought they might be bringing reproach on God’s name." 

The unsettling TRUTH is that it seems that MANY were TOLD it WOULD bring reproach on God's name. Now who would tell them such things ? Elders maybe ? 

Quote "It is not easy to get between a mama bear and her cub. You make it sound like a walk in the park. "

Now i'm sure most of you do not believe a word I say, or even a word any victim says BUT It seems to have been proved in court cases that Elders take children on the ministry, and, Elders do private Bible study with children. 

The JW Org gives the appearance of being a 'Safe Place To Be'. A place where people can be trusted because they are 'serving God'. 

So, people trust others to spend time with their children. So yes it can be a 'walk in the park' for a prdophile. 

Quote "The two witness rule becomes irrelevant.. " How blind you pretend to be.

In places where reporting Child Sex Abuse is THE LAW, it would rely on that Two Witness rule.  Because the Elders would say 'no  case to answer' without Two Witnesses, so the Elders would say 'nothing to report'. 

And of course you end your comment with sarcasm, trying to belittle us that complain and to mock the situation.

Unfortunately i'm seeing that as typical JW stance now. 

But that W/t is proof that the GB are worried, not about people of course, about the money it's costing in fines. 

15 hours ago, Anna said:

I think you must have missed my post about that.

Lett didn't say child abuse was apostate lies and propaganda, he wasn't denying there was a problem. What he said was that us denying there is a problem, and ignoring child abuse, is apostate lies.

I will reply to the rest of your post later. I can't right now.

Arrived home 2pm, 52 emails in my 'box'. don't know where to start. 

I'll quote your bottom line  "I will reply to the rest of your post later. I can't right now. "  

8 hours ago, Anna said:

I am assuming you are talking about your personal experience in your congregation hiding an abuser?

I am sorry John, but you make it sound like there is a pedophile lurking in every congregation. Let’s get real here, people from the “outside” are more at risk of being raped and their children molested than inside a congregation. Also, most of the cases have been familial, as you mention later on, which means it would have happened regardless of being part of a congregation or not. Just because someone claims to be a faithful JW doesn't make him so.

First of all, to be effective in being against something you have to have all the facts about that something. It’s no good throwing accusations around based on limited information. Then you’d be like the tabloid newspapers, all about sensationalism and misleading selective quotes. And no matter how much objective information you've read, and how many court cases you've studied, you still will not have all the facts. You'd only have those if you were a fly on the wall.

So are you here talking about your congregation? Or in general?

I disagree with you there. I am not sure how you dealt with it, I know you wrote a letter, but did you give the elders a chance to explain themselves? No one is disfellowshipped for being worried and showing genuine concern. Especially when they take this worry and concern to the elders, rather than the congregants. It’s the elders who are responsible for the congregation. They are the ones who need to know.

We can add other atrocities, incurable ailments, and all kinds of tragedies. This is the legacy that Adam and Eve have left mankind. Remember, the whole world is lying in Satan’s power. No one is immune.

True, you can talk all you like, but it’s not going to be effective if no one listen, is it? And I thought that was your motive, for people to hear you.

 

@Anna It feels to me as if you are angry with my comments and therefore need to tear them to shreds.

Dissecting my words does not make them less true. 

The sun is shining here and I'm going out in my classic car, I'll answer comments later after the sun has gone down  

20 minutes ago, Anna said:

Yes, you are not in a good position to talk anymore. It's too late. The time to say anything is when you are still a member of the congregation. And that's when what I said in the previous post applies. I still think you were too hasty in your assessment of the child abuse issues. When something is going on, that I feel is not good, I always think of this scripture: "For there is nothing hidden that will not be exposed; nothing is carefully concealed that will not come out in the open" Mark 4:22

When the Australian Commission inquiry first started, I spoke with a faithful, long time sister in Australia, I wanted to know what she thought about it, and she quoted that same scripture to me.

What I am saying is there is no reason to jump ship. We may not agree with something, or may believe something is downright wrong. But we have to put things into the right perspective. The worldwide brotherhood has many many good things, and most brothers and sisters have genuine love for each other and a desire to walk modestly with their God, and a desire to live a good clean life according to the Bible. If we stick with our brothers and sisters, and wait on Jehovah to sort things out, that need sorting out, we cannot lose. And IF the leadership (GB) would go down, so what, we still have our brothers and sisters and most of all Jehovah.

Don't know if we are off topic here, but the topic is wide anyway  and someone put my name on it. 

You are missing the collateral damage issues and that abusers are still hidden in the congregations. So i could not be active in the field ministry, trying to bring people into the Org which is a dangerous environment. Bring in lambs amongst wolves. 

Was it you that once said, that a person who is not actively against something, is actually a part of the problem. Well i felt like that anyway. Not being against it in an active way made me part of the problem. I was hoping that thousands of brothers and sisters would leave the JW Org.  

There was just too much involved. The congregants were not being warned in any way. They should have been told to be careful in case there was 'trouble' in the ministry because of people's anger due to the child abuse situation. But no, no warning was given. 

And you know that it was too dangerous for me to tell people inside the congregation because I would have been disfellowshipped for 'causing a division in the congregation'. Then the Elders would have been happy to say i was an Apostate. 

Wasn't one of the GB saying that it was all lies and all Apostate propaganda ? So what chance did i have in telling folks ? 

True that God will sort it all out in the end, but meanwhile thousands of children are suffering child abuse, physical abuse and emotional abuse, some of it by their own parents in the JW org. 

As for me not being in a good position anymore, it's quite the contrary. My position is now safe for me to talk. It's other people's problems if they are too frightened to want to listen. They know where I live if they want to talk to me.

People don't answer my emails, that is their choice. My conscience is clear. I' not offering children to Molech. 

7 minutes ago, Anna said:

You are obviously saying you are not fault finding or criticizing, just stating facts. Some people don't like to hear facts, especially if it goes against what they believe to be true. Nobody likes to be called out. The wisdom for you is to say your piece, and leave it. A bad idea is to keep harping on about it like you are the judge of all things. Don't think people don't hear you, they do, and it's up to them to process it.

I am not talking about forums like this one, you can harp on about things to your hearts content here, I am talking about face to face with people. 

The ones that I would like to talk to face to face, are too frightened to talk to me. ... Now that is either, frightened because they may get reported to the Elders, or, frightened that what i have to tell them will take them out of their comfort zone. 

And I am quite reserved on here actually. There are some on here that i don't even bother replying to. Because A. I think they are just a wind up, and B, I would totally lose self control, then probably get banned. 

I do have a tiny amount of common sense  

As for fault finding, I don't generally go looking for things but things just seem to crop up. Lots of people are mentioning 'faults' that i didn't even know existed in the JW Org. I have my main concern but that has been talked about enough unless any 'new light' appears. And I'm not meaning that new Watchtower.. 

19 hours ago, Anna said:

I just want to pipe up here. The internal struggles ARE what shaped "what Jehovah’s Witnesses as a people have done" . I know, and I agree, we do't want to focus on the negative. But in my personal opinion it helps to know these things sometimes because it helps us become more grounded in reality, rather than what we think is the reality, and then get disappointed, to the point of being stumbled. I don't know if I have explained that very well. I'm not talking about fault finding or criticism. Just reality.

Only just noticed this one. 

But when I mention the reality I get told off for fault finding or criticism  

21 minutes ago, Anna said:

You are taking yourself too seriously John. You should know TTH sense of warped humour by now.

I thought it was you who was going into the hidden cupboard, but TTH is in there with you i suppose. 

A merry mix of people tickling each others ears. 

As for TTH I know him not. Only that he sells books for a living   

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

I especially thought this was a truthful admission from page 202, 203:

However, in the very next columns, starting on the same page, this admission disappears into oblivion, and it becomes a religious organization, after all.

This is soooo funny. 

There is no religious organisation that ... oh um just a minute, yes there is it's us.  

Just so funny. 

And the bit about : -

"and composed of His spiritual remnant.. "  Well um, only 8 of them as bosses at the moment it seems. 

But it's all good for a laugh. 

9 hours ago, Anna said:

I guess that's because those individuals fooled the elder body into thinking they were repentant. It obviously wasn't because the elder body wanted more children to get molested.

No, it's probably because it WAS ELDERS DOING THE ABUSING. and as I've found out from experience, the Elders stick together to hide situations. 

Hence when i accused one elder of a serious thing, I got called a slanderer by another Elder and threatened with disfellowshipping if i didn't retract everything i said.  

Personal experience, in my opinion, goes far deeper that theory. But you tend to like to make up 'pretend situations'. 

Please remember court cases in the USA and here in UK have proved so much, that it is no longer theory. 

8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Yeah, @JOHN BUTLER, where you can’t come.

Nyah, Nyah, Nyah.

Showing a very Christian attitude Tom. Have a nice day. 

However I think it shows cowardice and the lack of confidence in your own beliefs. 

3 minutes ago, Anna said:

Then we are in agreement.

Whether you have been accused of slander or not makes any difference to the secular authorities. So that shouldn't worry you. Plus you are no longer JW. But what does it tell you that the Police haven't got back with you yet?

I suppose it tells me I should walk into a Police station and tell them directly. 

^{(paragraph) 6} A sin against the congregation

"We do not tolerate in our midst individuals who unrepentantly commit wicked deeds and who bring reproach on the good name of the congregation."

Um, how is it then that some Elders have been found to have commited sex offencies against more than one child and a lot more than once per child, in a congregation ? 

Court cases prove this point. 

11 minutes ago, Anna said:

Ok. What would you do if the victim doesn't speak out?

I just wish i knew the Name of that young girl. I would have more to act on then. 

2 minutes ago, Anna said:

Do you think secular authorities need some kind of proof? I am sure you know they do. You have experienced that yourself.

Let's think of a hypothetical case. Let's say a single mother of a child, whom she knows well, notices that her child has been acting strangely recently. She becomes suspicious something is not right, and eventually her mother's instincts tell her someone has been messing with her child. She has no idea who, or she might have suspicions. She talks with her child, and eventually the child tells her that elder "touchy-feely" has been putting his hand up her skirt. She finds out more details, like perhaps since when, and how often and, where. All this depends on the age of the child of course. What do you think the mother should do now?

Go directly to the police or a local authority. Do not go to the body of Elders. Trust no one, but know that God allows those secular  authorities to be there to do His work. 

Now I'm presuming that the single mother and child has good standing in the congregation of course, so that no accusations can be 'slung' at them by the Elders in retaliation. 

Not so in my case, as I've already been accused of slander and was threatened of being disfellowshipped before i left..  

I never did hear back from the Police that i contacted online.  

Paragraph 17. What is the role of the judicial committee?

" The elders do not interfere with law enforcement; they leave criminal matters to the secular authorities. "

But they may withhold paperwork / documents /notes, from the police or authorities, even when requested to hand them over. 

Any comments on JW Elders using Clergy Privilege to withhold information of child abuse ?

Just a paragraph form a report online :-

The two elders didn’t tell police. They, and the congregation, now face a lawsuit from the Delaware attorney general accusing them of violating the state’s mandated reporting laws. The defendants claim the elders were protected from having to report the abuse by a legal exemption for clergy.

Is this a massive loophole ? 

20 minutes ago, Anna said:

Of course two witness rule has no influence on how secular authorities will handle the case. The two witness rule is merely applicable in a congregational setting, ie. the judicial committee.

Yes but if there are not two witnesses then there will be 'no case to answer', especially if the accused is an Elder. 

And if there is 'no case to answer' then there will of course be nothing to report to the authorities. 

And if the victim continues to make complaint against the Elder, then the victim will be disfellowshipped for slander. 

I have the mag up online now. 

^{" 15} In the congregation, before the elders take judicial action, why are at least two witnesses required? This requirement is part of the Bible’s high standard of justice. "

Is this really the case in Child Abuse ? Does it say this in the Bible regarding Child Abuse ?

I think not. I think it refers to a disagreement between two adults. 

I do not think God or Christ would put this pressure on young children. 

BUT I thought the Elders new ploy was to claim Clergy Privilege. 

Whereby they have the 'right' to keep it all secret. 

I'll have to look at that W/t. Probs good for a laugh. 

1 hour ago, Queen Esther said:

Fact is,  NO JW can make unseen itself in the Kingdom Hall....   Every week, another group is cleaning Jehovah's  Holy-house.  Btw, Jehovah is watching us all, every sec.😀

I don't actually think God is watching every one of us every second. 

God has the ability to do so of course, but probably chooses not to. 

1 hour ago, Equivocation said:

He knew what was right with God because as he was growing up be read the Bible and applied its teachings. People saw him as a hermit of some sort, but in reality he was the coolest guy I know before his death.

The thing you forget about God is that one thing that can be pulled from his likeness is cleanliness. This also goes for being clean and being modest in attire.

And what's your point on this? You didn't even describe the scenario as modest for there is no issue with that. Immodest dressing would be if someone goes to to the hall or assembly in clothing that is revealing, tight, or to the point of nuditiy. And modesty isn't not just with us, it goes for schools, businesses and other places that uphold this too. There are people whom we sometimes preach to at times will not speak or discuss with you if something's up, especially to us in the Latino community. 

There's no need to rush for marriage. No one forced marriage for anyone, if anything there are parents out there that rush some folks because they want grandchildren, others for different reasons. In my case I am far from marriage but my dad always tells me 18 is the age one can get married if they want to. My dad got married at 22, my mom was 19 going in 20. My uncle married at 34-35.

How is seeking a marriage mate competitive?I didnt know there was a Ring Now: Marriage Edition going on, I never seen that in the channel line ups

All that aside you never made your case of clothing being a tradition of men. This point you make was out of the blue and you never gave answer to that.

I find it funny you are now comparing UK folks to everyone else. Pops, you don't know the Latino Community so stay in the lane you are driving in, remember what you said last time - you don't assume things, and now going against your word tells people something about you, papa bear.

OK Kid. Keep burbling. I like a good laugh. 

1 hour ago, jado said:

That’s right. Jehovah has always had an “Organization” . 

“Jehovah’s direction is to use the swifter” .... many of our dear r and f (rank and file) loved ones use “Organization” and  “Jehovah” interchangeably.

To these ones - in many cases our still in - close family physically in mentally in, PIMI 

to them, sadly the words and concept ORGANIZATION + JEHOVAH mean exactly the same thing.

Too bad then. Because God is far superior to any man made organisation. 

It is wrong to interchange those words. 

An organisation is good as God is a God of order not disorder. 

However, the organisation has to have God's approval and be guided by God's Holy spirit.

The GB and the JW Org show that it does NOT have God's approval and is NOT guided by God's Holy spirit.

So it is not doing God's will properly. 

7 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Exactly the same point I have often made. This is why I don't blame the Watchtower for the personal decisions I have made, and this is why I never complain that I lost out on anything.

Edited to add: This is why I also have never expressed any kind of resentment, because I don't feel any. Someone on here who comments very little could testify that it was just early this morning when he asked me what I thought of my time at Bethel and my complete answer was:

• I enjoyed it. I learned a lot. Loved the work. I'm an artist and worked in the art department. Then I got a lot of research assignments, so I got to go to the library a lot.

I don't want  to labour this point as it's not too important but, it has been known for JW parents to put pressure on their children to do certain things or live a certain type of lifestyle. Now of course that is not God's fault, nor the JW Org's fault, but the parents have obviously been instructed/directed to bring up their children in a certain manner. Elders especially have to have their 'own house in order', keeping the kids under control. So maybe some children do not have any personal choices when they are young, and that could include their education... We know that 'in the world' some youngsters are expected to follow in the father's / grandfather's footsteps in the military for instance. So it is in the JW Org, some youngsters are expected to follow their parents into the ministry and for young men to follow into 'positions of responsibility'. I think that is why many leave home and leave the Org asap when they get a job, to get away from parental pressure. 

10 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The trouble with this view is that the only way to know that a person is anointed is that he or she says he is.

But they seem to be told not to make it known. That's the whole point. 

24 minutes ago, Queen Esther said:

@JOHN BUTLER  Only a "BIG handful" of anointed brothers/sisters we've worldwide,  the number is variable.  To be anointed,  that ONLY  knows Jehovah and the brothers / sisters  itself.

Read,  what  jw.org  is  telling  us:

HOW THE ANOINTING PROCESS WORKS

What might an anointed Christian wonder, but what does he never doubt?

https://www.jw.org/de/publikationen/zeitschriften/wachtturm-studienausgabe-januar-2016/geistsalbung/#?insight[search_id]=20cc91aa-b857-47e9-8030-ab08237150f9&insight[search_result_index]=3

What are the “token” and the “seal” that each anointed Christian receives from God?—2 Cor. 1:21, 22; ftn.

https://www.jw.org/de/publikationen/zeitschriften/wachtturm-studienausgabe-april-2016/unterpfand-siegel-gesalbte-christen/#?insight[search_id]=0d98457b-eabe-4a1d-8224-0574cadc0cec&insight[search_result_index]=4

Sorry to upset you but I thought you would know that I'm no longer a JW, and i do not believe everything that the JW Org says.

I  have read how the W/T says for the Anointed to keep quiet and then says that the Elders are taking the lead.

Do you honestly think Elders should overrule Anointed ones ? 

Well i don't. 

33 minutes ago, Witness said:

 There were many believers in Christ who were baptized, but not all were anointed. I like Acts 2, the Day of Pentacost,  as a good example. Everyone hearing the “great rushing wind”,  question the kerfuffle going on, and Peter explained what happened inside by quoting Joel 2. 

 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. ³⁹ For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”  

And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.  Acts 2:38-41

How do you know they were not anointed ?