JOHN BUTLER

@Anna Quote "Well yes, that's because the other sheep weren't figuring in the equation yet. "

So when did the 'other sheep' start to figure in this equation ? 

Because as I've always thought, the Greek Scriptures were written by and for the Anointed only. 

Where does the scriptures actually talk directly to the earthly class ?  And i mean to not about. 

@JW Insider  Quote " I don't feel any remorse or bad feeling toward the Watchtower for recommending that I quit school to pioneer. "

Um, don't the GB / WT have lawyers, doctors, skilled people of all sorts ?

So all those folks quit school early and the higher education just floated into their heads did it ?  

 I'm sure if one of them needed surgery they would be glad that some folks actually did take higher education. 

And all the planning for new builds earthwide needs skilled engineers, planning authorities, and more. All those people would have higher education. 

The GB /WT just want dumb folk that they can domineer. 

@JW Insider  quote    "And there's that historical problem. If holy spirit is needed to understand (and I thin it is) then what does this say about doctrines that are constantly changed, sometimes back and forth."

And constantly deliberately  misused.....

It says obviously that the GB are not who they say they are and that they are not guided by Holy Spirit from God or Jesus Christ. 

@Anna quote " They wouldn't need anyone to teach them (perhaps such as the scribes and pharisees?). " 

Or a Governing Body ? 

Quote "These ones need spiritual instruction just like everyone else." The clue comes in the last 4 words 

What the W/t writer is saying is that the Anointed need instruction from the GB / Writing dept' just like everyone else.

Quote "Otherwise you would be saying God discriminates on account of position, that somebody with a higher position has more value in God’s eyes than someone of a lowly position. "

If 'Experiences' (in Yearbooks / Watchtowers etc)  are to be believed, then it would seem that God / Jesus Christ has / have saved some brothers/sisters in certain circumstances, but not saved other brothers/sisters in other circumstances. Now both God and His Son work in their own ways, working together as one, and i would never question what they do. I am humble enough to know that their ways are much higher than mine. But they must have their reasons for saving some and not others. (If experiencies are to be believed). 

An example of a supposed 'experience' : A sister was on the ministry and knocked on the door of a man. The man turned her away. The man was later arrested for rape/murder of a woman in his own home. When questioned as to why he did not invite the sister in etc, as she had been his first visitor. The man said that she 'had a man stood either side of her', she was not alone. But the sister had gone in to the ministry alone, so the 'man either side of her' must have been angels guarding her. ... True or false I do not know, but I do know it was offered as an 'experience' at a meeting a long time ago. 

@Anna  Quote "God does not judge people by the job/ function they have, ..." 

Luke 12 v 48 b.

Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him.

Says it all i think. 

Reading that W/t,  Paragraph 10  contradiction by GB against God's word.

As for you, the anointing that you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to be teaching you; but the anointing from him is teaching you about all things and is true and is no lie. Just as it has taught you, remain in union with him.”  1 John 2 v 27

But GB says in Watchtower  "These ones need spiritual instruction just like everyone else." 

Look at the scripture they are using,  and you do not need anyone to be teaching you;

Complete contradiction of God's word. 

9 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Who is this newcomer so skilled in verbiage...

 

and strange tongues?  

I think he is someone else using a different disguise. same old, same old ....... 

12 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Butler,

I noticed you don’t downvote people like Anna, JWinsider, TrueTom, James Thomas Rook, etc. even though you disagree with them, and at times have a strong opinion of them. I can honestly state you are being obtuse. Do yourself a favor and grow up. I don't mean spiritually since you have already crossed the line on that, but mentally.

I’ll help you with this down vote. Bear witness that your actions mean nothing other than being a stain in your life. I feel sorry for you.

There I gave you a smile. I thought you were funny. So don't cry Kid. 

The old saying, 'If you don't like the heat then stay out of the kitchen', comes to mind.

I give as good as I take from others, you included. I have no idea why you should let it bother you how I vote.  But if it gives you a reason to say something negative about me then I'm sure that makes you happy. 

I love you Kid. Because God's word tells us to love our enemies.  Matthew 5 v 44

Berean Study Bible
But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. 

17 hours ago, Anna said:

"...there is no partiality with God"- Romans 2:11

It's not about partiality, it's about position and responsibility.  

A manager would use a foreman / chargehand to give instruction to the workers, but the manager may like the workers as much as the manager likes the foreman / chargehand.. However the foreman / chargehand would have a higher position within the company than the workers would... 

On 1/29/2019 at 1:21 AM, Equivocation said:

Usually depends on the person and their build. What matters is if the clothing isn't out of this world immodest.

People now a days dress up as if they are going to a Crème de la Crème night club when they go to worship God.

My late uncle use to say, if it ain't right with God it shouldn't be right with you.

 

Other than that I can move in a suit just fine.

Did you ever ask your uncle how he knew what 'was right' with God ? 

Because at JW meetings it isn't God's opinion that is counted, it's the Elders opinions. 

One thing I did always notice was at assemblies, the young ladies / young sisters, well most of them, dressed in a way 'so as to be attractive to men'. Yes a lot of them looked stunning, but probably not modest. However one big reason for those young ladies / young sisters looking that way was the 'need' to find a 'marriage mate' within the JW Org. They found such ones at assemblies. 

It always looked so obviously competitive, and there seemed to be a push by parents to marry off their children. 

13 hours ago, Anna said:

I don't need to cite any scriptural quotes from the WT to make that  point.

The scriptures make no distinctions between true Christians, only their destination.  In fact the scriptures make no distinction between anyone with regard to the value of life, all peoples lives have equal value in God’s eyes. Otherwise the scriptures wouldn't be able to say that Christ died for all.

The distinction is approval or disapproval from God on how they live that life.  

John 10:16 

15 minutes ago, Anna said:

You raise some good points, and they, and some other comments, have given me an idea for a topic on the JW - only closed club. So when I get a bit more time I will put something together.

Yep do it in secret. Just like the GB does.   

@Anna Quote" I think the WT that talked about the anointed wished to highlight that there is no difference between the anointed still on earth, and the earthly class, apart from their future destinations. So if there is no difference.. "

A bit presumptuous to assume that the WT is right. Just because the GB / Writing dept' says the Anointed on earth and the earthly class are the same, does not prove that they are the same. What it does is say that the WT are saying they are the same...

If you want to hang on every word the GB / Writing dept' say, that is of course your right. But don't expect everyone else to do the same. 

How many scriptures did the WT use in full to make the point you've mentioned ?  Can you repeat those scriptures ? 

You are one of those that uses a lot of words to actually say nothing of importance.. 

Iti is possible that you are not a 15 year old at all, but someone using two or more different disguises. Like billy The Kid for instance. 

10 hours ago, JW Insider said:

An interesting point, because we (some of us) tended to defend the idea (GB=FDS) by saying that it never made that much sense that all of the anointed would be both domestics and FDS. Yet here we are right back with one of the original problems with the doctrine that I, at first, thought had been overcome.

Doesn't make much sense really because if a person was given a position of responsibility OVER others, then they would be 'above' the others, not 'equal to' the others. 

The GB are just using that idea, of being equal, to pretend that they are being humble. 

However what about the idea that ALL of the Anointed are the FDS and are 'over' those of the Earthly class ? 

But then we would still have to find the TRUE Anointed first.  

12 hours ago, Equivocation said:

It is bad. I'm only 15 and already people want to use death threats because I quote from the Bible. They dont care about me being one of Jehovah's Witnesses, what angers them is when the Bible alone trumps a false teaching they practice. Even today you have celebrities and political folks now proclaiming to beat and kill children because of silly false information. It's that crazy out there now.

What angers them is probably your attitude. 

11 hours ago, Equivocation said:

Don't mind the papa bear, he is grump because he hibernation was horrible this year. 

All jokes aside, Jesus has been mocked by liberals, and false Christian's. It has even come to a point whereas there are those who worship using brazen conduct include Jesus and mock him greatly. 

It comes to show you how this world is messed up in so many ways, but thanks to Jehovah, that small light that we have enable us to continue doing things for him and seeking him, also going about helping others learn who Jehovah is so they can teach their own and others.

God's word exerts power even in the face of vileness and darkness, and Jehovah God's word and the teachings Jesus brought forth is like an uplifting breeze on a nice cool Spring day.

Are but young person, do you say my comment is lies ? 

Queen Esther (is she a real queen or just putting herself on high ?) says "I don't want such of comments under my daily texts!!"

BUT she does not say it isn't TRUE. 

It's so funny that you call me Papa Bear. Because your GB are much older than me but you serve them. 

Just remember how Jesus showed up the Pharisees for what they truly were. Jesus didn't hold back from telling them the truth about themselves. Why should i hold back from telling the truth about the GB and the JW Org ? 

11 hours ago, Equivocation said:

I never called you an apostate or think of you as one, Pops. Former JW, yes, apostate? Dunno, didn't see you try to set fire to a hall like someone out there or defame God while attempting to mock our faith. 

If I had to be honest......whelp, I just see you as lukewarm or misguided, and a teaspoon of paranoia raising off of your skin. You can agree or disagree with Jehovah's Witnesses, but to be as  stale as chips in a bag..... Well, Pops, it fits the bill, and I just paid it and tipped it too.

Do you even know what an apostate is?

Seem? An accusation or an assumption? Here we see you trying to say we are all the same when we are not. Same faith doesn't mean we sre all the same person.

 

oh dios mío.....

You seem to be one strange young person. 

"Pops", "Bud," from a 15 year old that thinks he knows everything. Oh dear.

From a 'person' that uses a black ghost to identify with. Interesting, from a supposed JW. 

Quote "There's one person in particular who is a special case whereas I made promise to meet with her at least 2-3 times a week. It is something that is both personal and private." 

Um, are you a young man meeting up with a female in private ? That is a disfellowshipping offence you know. No two witnesses needed to accuse you of fornication. GB rules. 

Quote 'Anti-pauline is a legitimate expression'. Yes so is homophobia. What point are you trying to prove ? 

I love and believe Paul's writings to the congregations. However my feelings are that Paul was talking to those of the Heavenly Class / the Anointed, not to any of the earthly class. More is expected of the Anointed because they have been given more responsibility and have a greater reward. (Being in heaven with God and Jesus Christ is surely a greater award, even though a pure life here on Earth will be wonderful ).

Quote "Can you give an example of non scriptural rules ? "  

The two witness rule concerning Child Abuse. 

The misuse of the scripture about the Superior Authorities, from 1929 to 1962  I believe. 

The accusation of fornication if a man and woman enters a place with no other Witnesses with them. 

( But no accusation about two men or two women, which could be seen by others are homosexuality ).

The Blood Issue rules that keep changing. 

The shunning rules, when a person 'resigns' from the JW Org. 

Reasons the GB use for disfellowshipping. (This touches on other subjects but would make another topic).

So young person, I'm not your 'Pops' and I'm not your 'Bud'. 

You completely lost your side of this discussion by using those expressions, and yes, you showed yourself as Not having the Mind of Christ

2 hours ago, Queen Esther said:

@JOHN BUTLER.....

I just saw,  on some ilands many people were cleaning too, very good!   I can't understand, the  UK brothers & sisters are too lazy. What is with your elders?  Lazy too?

I know some brothers & sisters from the UK  -  will ask them about this theme....

 

Here in England it seems people have become too relaxed. My own brother is an Elder in a congregation and he says it is difficult to get people to go on the ministry. Some will not work on busy roads, some will not work where it is too hilly, others dislike the countryside where houses are too spaced out. I do know that many of the brothers and sisters are too materialistic, and spend too much time thinking about earning money. I know it seems very bad to say these things, but I tell you truth. 

However I think a lot of them enjoy spending time on the carts / trolly. Older ones can sit when not too busy and they usually only do about an hour at one time, so it is a good way of serving Jehovah joyfully. 

As for the Elders, i think they have many problems here in England. A lot of people have personal problems and it keeps the Elders very busy, and maybe takes the joy out of serving God. It must be hard work being an Elder, especially if you have a young family too. 

3 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

That's one way to look at it. It would go against my own conscience. What might a nation or government ever ask you to do that might go against your conscience, if I may ask?

I would not go to war in the real sense of going prepared to kill people. But I would work on a farm producing food. 

I would not vote for a person or political party. I would not become part of a political party. I would not salute the flag. 

But :- 

Matthew 5 v 41 

"And if someone in authority compels you into service for a mile, go with him two miles."

@JW Insider  Quote "(Romans 13 could be invoked as "the sword" of the authorities -- paying back Caesar's things to Caesar, etc.)"

Are but problem there was, Romans 13 was being misused at the time, to mean God and Jesus Christ. 

@JW Insider  Quote " Surely if the Bible says be no part of the world, and love your enemy, etc., anyone could easily interpret this to mean that support of the military is support of the "enemy" which is Satan's world and it's machinations. "

I totally disagree with you on this, but as I've mentioned to @Anna that the Society / GB were misusing the Superior Authority scripture in Romans 13. 

If the Romans scripture had been used correctly then it would have meant they would have been submitting to those Superior Authorities that God had put in place. If it was 'orders from', then it was not showing 'support for', it was just being 'obedient to'. Big difference in my humble opinion. 

18 hours ago, Anna said:

Hence, if a government / ruler of a country offered Alternative Service that was not going against the will of God, then the people should obey it. - Romans 13.

The reasoning was that alternative service would be a substitute or "in place of"....which was perceived being "the same as" fighting in a war, in which case Acts 5:29 would apply  And the point was that as long as this service was commanded by the army, you couldn’t do it. But if it was commanded by any other institution it was ok. I think the problem starts when the brothers get bogged down with absolute detail in an effort to cover all bases. Unfortunately, it then becomes a pretzel of reasoning. It’s like Trinitarians trying to explain the Trinity. Someone on here posted an anecdotal example of this pretzel type reasoning with a mock WT article on why true Christians shouldn't own a cat. I have a suspicion that it was one certain brother who had a penchant for this type of reasoning......

All probably would have been well had this ambiguous situation been left to conscience in the first place, instead of trying to make rules where none existed......

Now this is very wrong indeed. However I'm wondering if this fits in with the misuse of the Romans 13 scripture concerning the 'superior authorities'. 

The Society / GB were still misusing this scripture until 1962 I think. So JW's could not use that scripture correctly and say they had to obey the Superior Authorities' meaning the Government / Secular Authority..... Because the Society /GB were telling lies and pretending it meant God and Jesus Christ. 

From 1929 to 1962, the Superior Authorities became “the Most High God Jehovah and his exalted Son Jesus Christ.” (This Means Everlasting Life (1950) p.197)

Which is absolutely stupid as the scripture says :- 

 Let every person* be in subjection to the superior authorities,a for there is no authority except by God;b the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God.c ²  Therefore, whoever opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will bring judgment against themselves.

Note :  'stand placed in their relative positions by God'. So if you believed the Society /GB they were saying that the Most High God Jehovah, was 'placed in his relative positions by God'. It makes no sense at all. 

Now back to other stupid ideas.

1. that communal work was as bad as killing people. 

2. that it really mattered who gave the  orders. 

Which takes us back to Superior Authorities being placed in their position by GOD. And if the Armed Forces are part of the Superior Authority because they enforce that authority, then so be it. 

The fact that it was perceived being "the same as"   shows a complete lack of spiritual guidance. 

16 minutes ago, Anna said:

Yes, that is truly sad. It helps me to think of a few scriptures, this one particularly with reference to to the conscientious objectors:

"For it is agreeable when someone endures hardship and suffers unjustly because of conscience toward God. For what merit is there if you are beaten for sinning and you endure it? But if you endure suffering because of doing good, this is an agreeable thing to God". (1Peter 2:19)

For God is not unrighteous so as to forget your work and the love you showed for his name by ministering and continuing to minister to the holy ones. (Hebrews 6:10)

And these in general:

"Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, knowing that we will receive heavier judgment". (James 3:1) and  

"But the one who did not understand and yet did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him" Luke 12:48

"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of the Christ, so that each one may be repaid according to the things he has practiced while in the body, whether good or bad". 2 Corinthians 5:10

^"For the true God will judge every deed, including every hidden thing, as to whether it is good or bad". (Ecclesiastes 12:14)

"So, then, each of us will render an account for himself to God" (Romans 14:12) etc...

Is this some sort of defence of the Society /GB ? If it is it's a poor try. 

Yes to suffer for the reason of serving GOD is a good thing, BUT to suffer for the reason of serving MEN (the society /GB ) will never be a good thing.

'Put not your trust in earthling man, in whom no salvation belongs'.  Those men in charge misused their 'power' that is so obvious.