JOHN BUTLER

Is this some sort of defence of the Society /GB ? If it is it's a poor try. Yes to suffer for the reason of serving GOD is a good thing, BUT to suffer for the reason of serving MEN (the society /GB ) will never be a good thing. 'Put not your trust in earthling man, in whom no salvation belongs'. Those men in charge misused their 'power' that is so obvious.

@JW Insider Quote "If he answered, “Yes” (which would have been a truthful answer), he was considered to have “compromised,” having made a “deal” with the judge, and thus had broken his integrity. " Broken his integrity to whom though ? The Society / GB obviously. Not his integrity to God. So the Society / GB were demanding that these men serve the Society /GB.. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Quote " In England, there were 1,593 convictions, including those of 334 women. " As a side note. The 'big house' that i am 'caretaker' of, was known as Spicelands in the 1940's. It was run by Quakers and took in conscientious objectors. They were taught farming work and worked on the land around the house.

Things may be done differently, but are they done any better ? If it seems that one member ruled over the others back then, is it any different now ? Can anyone here know exactly what goes on in a GB meeting ? Is it recorded and made public ? I'm thinking about starting a new topic about " The times they are a changin' " A line from a Bob Dylan song i think.

I laughed. i think here in UK that people are too lazy. Even those in the JW Org are lazy. It is difficult to get people to do the ministry, but would be probably impossible to get them picking up litter. And there is a snobbishness, they think they are too posh / important, to do such things as pick up litter. English people are strange and yes I'm English.

I quote you "Much of the evil that is done in this world is the work not of individuals but of organizations." Yes I agree with you. And the JW Org is one of them Hiding Pedophiles within it. Allowing CHILD ABUSE in the JW congregations in lots of different countries. Such countries as : America, Canada, Australia, UK, The Netherlands, Spain. The GB / JW Organisation has allowed Child Abuse to carry on in all those countries, and probably many more. This is truth and has been proven by many investigations and many court cases now coming to light. If you deny this then you are only telling lies to yourself.

From what time period were those men told by the GB to 'go to prison' instead of doing alternative service ? From what date until what date ? I notice you mention 1996, as when the Organization reversed its policy on alternative service. The reason I'm asking is that in 1962 (or so I've just read) the 'Society' changed the meaning of the Romans 13 scripture, back to its original understanding, that is, that the Superior Authorities are the governments / rulers of this world. Hence, if a government / ruler of a country offered Alternative Service that was not going against the will of God, then the people should obey it. Romans 13. Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. 2 Therefore, whoever opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will bring judgment against themselves. Wow, now that is very clear, isn't it. So if the Society / GB deliberately took this stand against those Rulers that had the authority from God to rule, then the Society / GB were in fact taking a stand against GOD Himself.

@Srecko Sostar Quote " Today, looking on my period in prison, jail, and obligation on going to army, I came to conclusion how decision to reject army service is more decision of WT Corporation aka JW Church than my clear conscience stand on matter. Perhaps i assured my self it is my conscience, but in fact it was about behavior according to group (JW congregation) i was belong in that time. It was expected to do it that way. " Srecko, I have tears for you my friend. The GB have a lot of things to answer for. I hope God removes the GB from 'power' and replaces them with a true Anointed class.

So let's be blunt. The Governing Body sat on their arses in some nice room and decided other men should go to prison. There was basically no scriptural reasons for it. The GB just had that power over people to do it. Now that proves how much those people were serving the GB. The GB did not give them the choice to use their God given conscience. It proves dictatorship. Felix is a GB worshiper so I'm not interested in his opinions on this. As you have posted "But their inability to explain the reason for their stand shows that someone else has done their thinking for them." That says it all. Case proven.

Never known it here in England either Srecko. In that country where they are doing good practical work, they get treated so badly. Perhaps Russian authority thought the JW's would be liked too much by the people. Weren't the Egyptians frightened of the Israelites getting too powerful ? Maybe the Russian authorities felt that JW's were getting to powerful too.

You are totally weird Felix. i have not proved your point on anything. And your comments are not worth looking into. So I'll go back to listening to music on Youtube. Anyone that tries having a meaningful conversation with you is wasting their time. GB = 8 men who dream they are important. Just as you dream the same Felix.

@FelixCA Quote " I get the impression Butler believes the GB to be equal to Christ, not above him as you state. " Felix you are a complete nutcase. A self loving nutcase at that. You follow the GB's example by putting yourself on high Remember the scripture in Luke 14 v 11 Well you certainly exalt yourself... So it follows For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.” You also follow the example of Space Merchant on here,. You start off talking to one person then you drag as many peoples names into your rant as you can find. You know that your comments are complete rubbish so you hide behind a 'cat'. You may be man or woman, who knows. But then who cares. You say nothing worth taking note of.

It's strange that you mention those in Russia as I was thinking about them today. I wrote a comment on this forum about the 'secular authorities'. And i am wondering what the Witnesses in Russia are now thinking of this scripture. Obviously the Russian 'power of authority' have overstepped the mark. Romans 13 Let every person* be in subjection to the superior authorities,a for there is no authority except by God;b the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God.c 2 Therefore, whoever opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will bring judgment against themselves.

The picture is really nice. I could live there However the poem seems a bit strange. Was it written in English or am i seeing an English translation from another language ?

Here is a perfect example of NOT being a spokesperson for GOD, BUT being a spokesperson for the GB and JW Org. Not using God's word the Bible but using JW Literature... That is how people outside are taught the so called 'truth'. But is it truth ? @Anna An example for you.

@Anna Quote "but you still do have faith and trust in so many people." ............... WRONG. No we don't have milk persons (PC) delivering milk. I don't 'fly' anywhere. I have no faith or trust in medical staff, hence I had to be in excessive pain before the ambulance came and took me in to hospital with pneumonia, and I ask to leave hospital asap after treatment. Was only in three days, then recovered at home. I have no faith or trust in the Police force, none at all. But it is all there in its place, and God's word tells us that these things stand in place with His permission and to serve His cause at this time. On this latter issue, the Police. When I was being abused in the Children's home my feelings were that i could not report it to anyone as they 'were all in it together'. Children's home / Local Council - Government / Local Council - Police / Local Council-Children's Department Social Services.... There was no one left to report it to................... Even a few years ago when I finally got some of my personal documents regarding my time in 'care', most of it was 'redacted' / Blacked out. One page completely black. So where is any reason to trust ? You are probably right on one thing. It is no longer possible to lead anormal life............. As for my brother, I sort of feel sorry for him. He has 'given' his life to JW org. If he lost it, it would finish him. He no longer contacts me. I can understand why, but you are right I no longer trust him... Quote " With the Org changing the meaning of scripture, and teachings, I am assuming you preferred the previous ones better? Or is it because you think there should never be any change? " The Creative Days being 7,000 years long, and us being in the 'Rest Day' of 6,000 years , then 1,000 years of Christ's rule. It made sense that all the days were 7,000 years long. God being a god of order not disorder............ But other changes are constantly being discussed on here, such as the F&DS once being the whole 'body' of the Anointed, but now only 8 men............ The teaching about 'this generation' .... the teaching about 'the superior authorities'.............. You don't have to look far to find them do you ? Quote " But that really is no different than putting faith in anyone else who is doing a particular job, " Sorry you are totally out of line here.. You are talking about 8 men that dictate to over 8 million people, by pretending that those 8 men are the 'Faithful and Discreet slave'. Those 8 men misuse that title, which they have given themselves, to promote their thinking NOT God's thinking. As for the 'wrongdoings', they mount up to the heavens it seems. Giving themselves that title which means they put themselves above other Anointed...... Luke 14 v 11 answers that one............ Deliberately misusing scripture to rule over others. Reasons for disfellowshipping/shuning, is another.... The Child Abuse situation, and on this one, if only i could find the video, I'm sure a member of the GB said it was 'all lies and just apostates causing trouble'...... Quote " Every time a brother or sister speaks about the promises in the Bible, they are being a spokesperson for God.. " Wrong...Most times a' brother or sister' speaks, they are being a spokesperson for the GB or JW Org. They go out with 'literature' more often than they go out with GOD'S word. There is such a big difference. JW's are taught what to say. Please remember I went to the Ministry School meetings / Work book meetings. It is all written in there. What to say, what to offer. It's JW literature, not God's message through Christ.... Your last paragraph is of course right.... But that is because you give a direct scripture. How wonderful it would be if the GB and it's writing department, and all the other 'people/men' in positions of 'power' within JW Org / Watchtower, would stick completely to scripture. And only to write the things which they have 100% proof of. They wouldn't write much of course Have a great day Anna.

Even in this topic the Organisation is put first. Read it through. Firstly it says ".... than I do preparing for congregation meetings? Then is says AFTERWARD, "...... that I spend less time praying or reading the Bible?’ See how it puts congregation meetings before prayer and the Bible.

You would have read enough comments on here to know how JW's treat those that are d/fed and those that leave the org. Some Witnesses have no feelings, they just go by the 'rules' of the JW Org. For instance :- Our only daughter (H) that is still in the Org, 'grassed up' one of our other daughters, to the Elders. (H) didn't even consult us, mum and dad, even though I was still a JW and my wife was attending meetings with me and was an unbaptised publisher. (H) had some information and she just wanted to go straight to the Elders. She has no love, no mercy, she is just a robot JW. But other JW's see her as a really good person. The daughter that was 'in trouble' chose to leave the Org. But even though i was still a JW I stated to everyone that I would not shun my daughter. And my wife and I kept in contact with her. So like I say it is an individual thing. However, when I left the JW Org of my own choice, because of the serious Child Abuse problem within it, I was completely shunned by the whole congregation, around 120 to 130 people. Now you show me 3 scriptures that directly state that congregants should shun me for leaving the Org for a good reason ? In my honest opinion the scriptures are written for the Anointed, not the earthly class. Much more is expected of the Anointed because they have a much closer relationship with God. (And i mean the true Anointed, not your GB) But your comment is about your worship of men, the GB. You are trying to protect their reputation. You are not looking for justice or mercy. You do not have 'the mind of Christ'. You are like our daughter (H), just a robot for the JW Org. Using silly expressions such as Anti-Pauline. Does it make you feel good ? I'm not impressed. God and Jesus Christ know everything about everyone. They know when people are falsely disfellowshipped, that is, disfellowshipped for non scriptural reasons, and they know when a person is shunned because that person takes an action in line with God's word. Your GB have placed themselves on high. They think they have the right to make non-scriptural rules to domineer people, just like the Pharisees did. If you are happy with that so be it, but be careful they may just turn on you some day.

Well you would probably call me an apostate, but I'm only apostate to the JW Org. And yes I still believe in God and Jesus Christ. But you seem to want to jump on the JW bandwagon about apostates, so be it.

@Equivocation Quote " But if a suit and tie is that bad, why are you wearing a suit and tie, let alone clothing if you say it is tradition of man? " When i was in the JW Org, I obeyed the rules. Rules of men. I didn't want to deliberately cause trouble or to embarrass my family by being moaned at by the police, sorry I mean Elders, of the congregation. We had an Elder in the congregation, a big man, that really suffered with the heat causing him problems. He never wore a jacket or tie in the hall, BUT he still had to wear a suit and tie when he went up on the platform. They had to put a big electric fan on the edge of the stage each time he was on there. So tell me where is the love and consideration for that Elder ? And yes they didn't question him for not wearing a jacket and tie in the hall, but I did get 'spoken to' once for not wearing a tie, hence in future I conformed. In my opinion it becomes 'traditions of men' when it is not scriptural but is still enforced by 'those in power', the GB down to the Elders. And yes certain types of clothing are traditions of men if dictated by humans. This point has been proven by women in certain secular jobs having to wear high heeled shoes all day, when they would prefer to wear flat comfortable shoes. I believe this has got to the point of actual court cases. I think that proves the tradition of MEN in the true sense. And the suit and tie was supposed to represent decency, honesty, trustworthiness, etc. But in many cases it was just used to trick people into thinking that way. However, it has been carried forward to this day, as a tradition of men. So is it still necessary ?

Quote "I rather trust in God and Bible understanding... " BUT maybe you are not, maybe you are trusting in different men, the GB.

You have been taught well. You are good at twisting things to your own purpose just like the GB does. But you have chosen a very sly way to accuse Raymond Franz. And anyway if you believe the GB are who they pretend to be, wouldn't God have chosen Franz, or possibly Jesus chosen Franz ?

@Anna You asked. What attracted you to what Jehovah's Witnesses taught'? Why did you become one of Jehovah's Witnesses? Surely there must have been something that you recognized as valuable? I was fresh out of a horrible children's home (details I've written about before) and my brother helped me a lot. He and his wife were JW's and i sort of thought they are leading a good life and they are good to me. I tended to believe everything my brother told me about any subject. He's my older brother by 8 years, and I thought he had more experience of life than me so I trusted him to teach me the right things. He's now an Elder in a congregation in our hometown... And the people on 'ground level' were good and friendly. BUT that just makes it like a social club. I fell for it all. I did as I was told and didn't ask questions. It all seems to make sense. THEN, as time went on, the GB/JW Org changed the meaning of scriptures, changed teachings/doctrine, and well you know why I left. And the more I'm reading on here, the worse the Org seems to be. ... The Org uses the word 'Truth' as a trick word. They are saying being in the JW org is being in the Truth. Hence any thing outside is all lies. It's done to kind of frighten people, that if a person looks outside all they will find is lies. But that is the lie. I think it's funny that JW's pretend they don't put their faith in men. Whereas it can easily be seen that JW's are told to believe what the GB tells them. JW's do not question the GB's words, hence why wrongdoing has been going on for so long in the JW Org. Proof from past Watchtowers shows that the Org presents itself as God's only organisation, and the GB as God's only spokesperson, and again the Org as the only means of salvation. And JW's do not question that. Quote "I am sure you have faith in your wife, in your children and others? " You are totally wrong. I have faith in no human, and trust no human.. I'm married to my third wife, the previous two committed adultery. My childhood completely ruined my life. And no I'm not blaming, I'm stating fact. The emotional damage 'killed' me. I'm a shell. But you and others will never understand, only God and Jesus Christ can understand, and I will be judged by them.

@Anna Quote "those who have seen the ‘Truth’ transform lives for the better..." Misuse of the word Truth. Truth is from God through Jesus Christ, NOT through the GB of JW Org. " and have experienced the liberation from Christendom’s false teachings (and other religions) and have seen the puzzle pieces of pure teachings of the Bible become a clear picture, .. " You jest of course ? When teachings /doctrines change constantly. Twisting the meanings of scripture. Are you sooo blind. ? " and those who’s faith is grounded in Jehovah and not mere man, " It gets funnier. It seems to have been proved that no one should disagree with the GB now, and at that time one member of it . . @JW Insider " Fred Franz was always considered the only one who could come up with a change in scriptural doctrine, or "new truth" as we called it. Creating the Governing Body in about 1971 didn't change this. In fact, when a few people started speaking up with questions about doctrine, the GB was expanded with a lot more " F.Franz loyalists" who would never dare vote against F.Franz " " faith in the Governing Body " Your words Anna. And then you dare to compare the GB with Jesus. "..whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life” " I know the GB think they are equal or even above Jesus but .... JESUS PROVED WHO HE WAS. It was so clear to those alive there at that time. Why do you try to compare those times with now ? There is no comparison on some things.

I think you would willingly follow the GB over a cliff if you were told to. You'd think it was God's will. It's not dumb things the GB do, it's deliberate things it seems. If a religion does a hundred things they are bound to get a few of them right. More people are turning to Islam but it doesn't make it right does it ? Lots of religions are 'still running', like an old car.

So, the thoughts of men. Or it seems the thoughts of one man. To be sure God had no part in such reasoning. It seems homosexuality and probably sex with animals was enough for God to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, but not enough for divorce it seems