JOHN BUTLER

@JW Insider Quote " Fred Franz was always considered the only one who could come up with a change in scriptural doctrine, or "new truth" as we called it. Creating the Governing Body in about 1971 didn't change this. In fact, when a few people started speaking up with questions about doctrine, the GB was expanded with a lot more " F.Franz loyalists" " Is this the truth or just your opinion ? If it is truth then it is a big worry. So who rules the GB now then ? Each thing i read makes the JW Org seem worse and worse, hence i ask if this information above definitely true or just opinion ? Reminds me of when ONE Elder threatened to disfellowship me for slander. He thought he had that authority.

@TrueTomHarley Quote " Almost everything on every thread here (at least the ones I frequent) are advancing or defending against an attempt to undermine the earthly organization. The appeal of undermining it is irresistible. " Sorry to hear you have such a pessimistic view of debate. How about considering that some of us are actually looking for truth. God's truth, not GB / JW org truth. And again some of us are giving a warning about certain things within the JW Org that may be a danger to others.

Quote " Within the Governing Body, he would vote against creating a new rule that married couples could be disfellowshipped for oral sex, for example. " Quote "The Watchtower claimed that a man could have homosexual relations with another man or an animal, and it was not "fornication" and thus did not constitute grounds for a scriptural divorce.. " Oh dear it's gets funnier every day. I'm sorry but I'm sat here laughing. It really does make the GB look like a group of perverts. @JW Insider So can you please tell me the GB / JW Org views /rules on these two matter now ? If I had been asked about what my wife and I did in our sexual activities, I would have told the Elders it's none of their business. It is between Jesus Christ (who has been given the right to judge) and my wife and I. The threefold cord, does not include the GB or the Elders. Sorry I've just got to add a comment from my wife here, after I talked to her about all this, She said about the GB " They're not the Messiah, they're very naughty boys " (A line from a film you may know)

Jealous ? Is his book getting more attention than yours ?

Well some books are plain facts, statistics. Then there is God's word, inspired from God's viewpoint. Then there are JW books which the writer's pretend to be 'guided' by God's Holy Spirit. So, i think there are different types. It's funny how you guys love to shorten my sentences though, when you semi quote me. That complete sentence had a meaning which you have deliberately removed. But then it seems to be the way of JW's to misquote people, or to only quote half of something so that it loses its true meaning. Takes me back to Srecko's findings when he researched a Watchtower misquote. What a sly way to mislead people.

Quote "There are at least six chapters on the topic" As i said 'However being a writer i expect you will concoct some excuses'. And it's only books, which anyone could write from their own viewpoint, if they wanted to cheapen the subject. There is only one book or collection of writings that has / have any importance, and they were not written by you TTH.

Witnesses are instructed that if a person does not make progress then don't waste time on them. It is that simple. They don't teach 'about the Bible' anyway, they teach JW views and interpretation of the Bible.

Just cheap advertising for your books then. No feelings for God nor humans. But there is no defence for Child Abuse and / or hiding pedophiles in the JW Org. However being a writer i expect you will concoct some excuses.

Those seeking truth, not position or just friendship. People like myself, but better than me, that don't mind being shunned for truth. And it seems there are people on here looking for truth rather than looking for the easy way. The JW Org is the easy way now because there are so many JW's that a person can live their whole life in the Org. That is why so many are frightened of the Elders, and frightened to look for truth, because being in the Org has become a comfortable way of life in the Western world. To lose the Org for some people would be the worst thing that could ever happen to them. Hence many chose the GB and JW Org, over God and Jesus Christ.

@FelixCA "All that the GB is about is written in scripture." Ah yes, offering children to Molech. Quote "Whereas those that oppose authority defy God. " Well the Pope has authority in the eyes of many. The Archbishop also has authority in the eyes of many. And your GB has authority in the eyes of a few. So you see, your comment means nothing at all. You are lost.

@JW Insider Thank you, I could not link to this so this is a great help, and those last few comments I would not want to have missed. @FelixCA you mentioned," With responsible people in the lead." So not the GB then Quote " Therefore, can you give me verification the Watchtower GB is NOT God’s coordinated helpers on earth as God's will is in heaven? " By their works you will know them. Evidence proves the GB are not God's true servants.

@Anna I quoted from FelixCA " If you’re a person that is looking for excuses to fade or leave, promote this book if you must, just keep the Watchtower and faithful followers of Christ out. Perhaps JW only would be more suitable to discuss this among yourselves since no one will be able to refute misguided understanding."

I see that @JW Insider and @The Librarian have had some fun here. However a couple of the comments from Felix have gone missing, or i can't find them, See below. The comment at the top of this page was answered before it was moved. Hi JOHN BUTLER, FelixCA has posted a comment on a topic, Raymond Franz FelixCA said: 1 hour ago, Witness said: Can you give me scriptural verification that the GB is God's coordinated earthly rule? The Watchtower has corrupted the decrees of God – His Word. God’s “laws” are the source of life which Jesus brought us as, “The Word”. John 1:1 His teachings incorporate every decree God expects us to follow. The WT leaders “judge” and “measure” according t ... Go to this post Witness said: 1 hour ago, FelixCA said: What part of Christ words in Acts 20:28-30 fails you. I have no problem at all with it. I do not lay down new decrees for men to obey as the GB is known for, and admits to doing. (Check with Anthony Morris about this) This is "distorting the truth" - Christ's truth. Felix the Cat carried around a Magic Bag of Tricks. I'll just say th ... That's the bits I cannot find. I'd saved these on my emails but could not find them on the topics. Regards, John

Freedom of choice ? I mentioned in a topic that i started, about predestination, that a few people seem to have been chosen to do things before they were even born. Jacob being an example, chosen over his brother whilst still in the womb.

Poor Felix like a baby throwing his toys out of the pram again. Quote Felix "How convenient to all of a sudden develop a conscience to justify his own actions.. " Um, one can only develop a conscience over time as one put things together. Things build up over time as one gathers information. So one's conscience builds with the more information one has on a subject. But then it seems Felix has suddenly been given power from 'above' to judge Raymond Franz. Quote "I’m not mentally challenged spiritually .". That makes no sense at all. Spiritual things give wisdom from God.. Whereas we think mentally of our own choice. And this silly word 'apostate' is so misused now it really has no meaning at all. Remember, an apostate is someone that turns away from a former religion. They do not necessarily turn away from God or Jesus Christ. So it seems that Raymond Franz chose to serve God and not serve the GB or JW org. Hence the GB got annoyed with him. And once again we see typical GB / JW org attitude whereby Felix thinks he has the right to tell someone where to post his comments. As for faithful followers of Christ. A lot of them are already out, out of JW Org that is ....

I know that a new topic has been started, but many of the comments which I have email notifications of, seem to have totally disappeared. They are neither here or on the new topic .

I remember watching a very stupid 'horror' film about monsters in the mist. A man was in his car with his parents who were very old, in thick mist, and they could hear the monsters getting closer. The man had a gun with only two bullets in. He didn't want the monsters to get his parents so they decided the best plan was to use the two bullets to kill both his parents. They did this. And then the man was just sat there in the car with his dead parents, waiting for the monsters to get him. But all of a sudden the armed forces arrived with tanks and big guns, the mist started to clear, and the man was saved. However to others it would have looked like he had just murdered his parents. The film ended with the man stood by his car watching the armed forces attacking the monsters. I recall that because it helps me to realise that a person has to act on the situation / facts known, that they have at that particular time. A person's motives may be for the good, but to others it looks as if they are for the bad. It is therefore a wonderful thing that God, and Jesus Christ, can see all things and know all things. They know us better than we know ourselves. They judge us from a standpoint that we will never understand. Their ways are much higher than our ways. Raymond Franz, I would say it is not our place to judge him. However I do think it is the place of JW's to judge the GB or GB decisions, because the GB run the JW Organisation. And i do think it is the right of JW's to judge the way the organisation is being run and the 'rules' it is run by. Therefore I think there should be more clarity, more openness, in the JW Org. So that members can make a fair judgement of whether they want to be part of such an organisation. I do think that in the first century, the running of the Christian 'organisation' was much simpler and more open. Acts 15 v 28 & 29 For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you except these necessary things: to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols, from blood, from what is strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you carefully keep yourselves from these things, you will prosper. Good health to you!” Those people hearing those word would have fully understood what they meant. It seems to be all that was needed at that time. So when some on here try to compare those days to now, in my opinion it is not possible to make a real comparison. Ex-JW's that have known and still remember problems from within the JW Org should of course whenever possible warn others of any dangers of being part of the JW Org. A good person would not want to send anyone into a cage of lions, even if those lions were purring like pleasant pussy cats. JW's still in the JW Org should also, and probably even more so, warn others of problems / dangers within the JW Org, but it is a danger for them to do so. I think that the more the JW Organisation pushes about Satan ruling the world, and that everyone outside the Org is part of the devil's world, then the more those that have information should push to show Satan's influence inside the JW Org. It's called balance, and honesty. The Watchtower and the CCJW are not God. The GB are not God. The Elders are not God nor Jesus Christ. So do not let anyone replace God or Jesus Christ with humans of any kind or status.

@The Librarian , @FelixCA is totally off topic once again. I'd love to answer his dribble but maybe you can ask him to start another topic please.

Yes, clothing as we know it now is designed by humans not by God. So it is the traditions of men. That includes suits and ties. The tie is one of the most pathetic pieces of clothing ever invented. A dangerous item that has caused many accidents in workplaces. God does not require men to wear it. A pair of trousers and a shirt is all that is needed in warmer weather. Yes shoes and socks too. As for ladies, why not trousers ? Especially for mums that have to handle young children, which may involve a lot of bending, kneeling and awkward movement. Trousers would be far more modest than many things ladies wear to meetings. The stupid idea that trousers are 'mens' clothing is just plain crazy. Trousers designed and made for ladies are of course ladies clothing. It's easy to see that it is all about 'lording it over the congregation'. Dictatorship by 8 men. Certainly not from God.

Are you foreign that you do not understand English properly ? No disrespect if you are, but it would give me reason to know why you misinterpret everything i write. It was / is the wicked angels, that is the devil and his demons, that challenge God's sovereignty not me. I just stated the case.... Hitler could not have done any of the wicked deeds without the majority of Germany backing him. The Germans may not have backed him because they wanted to, but maybe out of fear. Just as JW's serve the GB through the Elders, out of fear. Just as people come on here , this forum, but use pseudonyms, out of fear of being found out by the Elders. Felix i see you are using the GB's idea of suggesting people are mentally unstable. Typical Watchtower doctrine. Sorry Admin but I'm just answering Felix. Perhaps Felix should start another topic of should i just ignore him ? But let's get back on topic. A question Is it a disfellowshipping offence to read Raymond Franz books, or to own them ?

@Jack Ryan Thank you. I think hopefully I've saved the pdf of C of C. That is going to be some reading.....

People always seem to harp back to 2000 years ago, to try to make a defence for the GB. Different times, different situations. Judas allowed himself to be misled by the devil, but it also seems it was necessary that the betrayer came from within. Maybe you should have quoted this bit as well. "Yet he gets kicked out by the other members of the GB for being an apostate." Because it seems Raymond Franz didn't betray God or Jesus Christ. Knowledge of such things is way over my head of course, so I don't know who was right in God's viewpoint. But it does give a person reason to distrust the GB if RF wasn't found guilty of any real wrongdoing.

Is the C of C book easily available and do you think I would benefit by reading it ? Up date. Have hopefully saved pdf of C of C so will read later, bit by bit of course. I do blame him for some of the child abuse problems because I think he was the person who would have invoked the two-witness rule into judicial matters that are too difficult to figure out through external knowledge and common sense alone. Would this have been a general introduction of the 'Two Witness' rule, not just for the Child abuse cases ?

Point taken. Sorry.

@JW Insider Quote " And it showed its very human side, with its faults, mistakes, and interactions of personality. ... " Sorry but i laughed. Those seem to be very carefully chosen words of yours. Also, " how key decisions could be delayed or swayed by more outspoken and stronger personalities on the GB. " And you think that is guided by 'Holy Spirit' ? It seems to become even clearer here that this is just a group of men who have put themselves up on high, in place of Jesus christ, and make decisions that suit themselves only. And they used to have over 8 million adults obeying their every word. However i found it even funnier that Felix makes accusations against a man, accusations that he cannot prove. Showing that once a person is given a bad name by the JW Org, then others jump on that bandwagon to criticise even with no evidence of their own. It seems that not many JW's here actually follow scripture.