JOHN BUTLER

It is fact that God allowed Adam and Eve to become imperfect, and to continue living long enough to produce offspring which were also imperfect etc.. We know of course that God was facing the challenge from spirit beings, so it was not truly about us humans, but about God's right to rule.. As for blaming an Organisation for it's faults, of course we should. Hence I left JW Org. Sorry but i relate this once again to Germany and Hitler. Hitler could not have done it all on his own, hence i blame the German people. If members of an Organisation turn a blind eye to immoral things happening within, and if those members are too frightened to act against the 'bosses' or internal police, then yes I blame that whole Organisation. I blame the bosses and internal police for not running the Organisation properly and not policing it properly. And I blame the members for not speaking up, and / or leaving that organisation. You added the word society. Did you mean 'a society' as in a group that a person joins, or did you mean society that one is born into, a country of birth etc? An organisation is something you actually join deliberately. Hence many JW children, when they become of 'age', will leave the JW Org, which in fact they were never a part of, they were just children of parents that deliberately joined that organisation. The expression the Org uses is 'making the truth your own', before a youngster gets baptised. But many youngsters see the hypocrisy and lies in the JW Org and decide to be no part of it. It is fact that many youngsters state that being made to be 'part of the JW Org' actually ruined their young lives. They were not given choices, just ordered to do things by their parents. The GB made the rules, the Elders distributed these rules and policed the congregation, the parents followed the rules without question, and the children suffered for it all. So yes, blame the whole Organisation for its sins, if the sins are made known to everyone within.. Because an adult does not have to be a part of that Organisation and a child is not actually part of that Organisation. But I don't really know what your point was in relation to this topic.

So there you had a member of the GB, who was supposed to be of the 'Faithful and discreet slave ' and he had opinions that should have been guided by God's Holy Spirit. And he had been involved in writing important books telling everyone about the JW Org. Yet he gets kicked out by the other members of the GB for being an apostate. Because he spent time with a disassociated person. Yes, what a 'wonderful' GB you have. What a wonderful Org you have. What a lot of hypocrites you follow.

UM, sounds a bit like some of you ( TTH & Anna ) are having less 'faith' in your GB's explanations. Go careful some might call that Apostasy. . But it's nice to see even you folks can see how the GB make themselves look stupid sometimes. Though, with that in mind, I can't understand how you can criticise me for not trusting your GB.

I hope you get well soon and I hope some Sisters are visiting you to give you help and give you practical and spiritual support. I've never owned a laptop, not would I. I'm sort of old school, I can only work on a big desktop computer with a big keyboard, and a nice size monitor. As for mobile phones / cell phones, mine only does calls and text, it again is 'old school'. I could never use one with lots of apps etc. I keep saying I'm a simple man of poor education, just being online is a big step for me. Anna, keep up your prayers to God, and get well soon.

You guys, Waking up an old topic, are people getting bored ?

" "[Jehovah] kindly asks us to trust in him. " Yes of course. But do not get mixed up. The words are, JEHOVAH kindly asks us to trust in HIM. The words are NOT trust in the GB of JW org.

I agree with you @Srecko Sostar. I could not go into the ministry now even if i were still a JW. How could a person's conscience allow them to teach something that they know is wrong, or that they do not believe themselves..

So why couldn't the GB / Watchtower Soc' just sometimes say 'We do not know' Wouldn't that be a more humble way, and wouldn't that be waiting on God to give them an answer ? It seems that the GB have to be proving themselves all the time. And often prove themselves wrong. As for @Jaocb 's idea that one should not criticise if one does not have an alternative answer. That is a very crazy notion. But each to their own What I'm reading on here is moving me further away from the JW Org, and certainly making me put less trust than ever in the GB. And i do find that, some people find it difficult to distinguish, between serving God as opposed to serving an Organisation. To me the plot thickens each day, and not for the better. @JW Insider You seem the most balanced person on here. Keep up the good work.

Um, round in circles i know BUT, the teaching used to be that ALL Anointed were the faithful slave class, is that right ? And as for your scripture at 1 Peter 4 v 10 & 11. It gives me more reason to believe that the scriptures were /are written for the Anointed to fully understand and the scriptures apply fully to those of the Anointed. The earthly class are just the other sheep. The scripture says " To the extent that each one has received a gift.... " I believe that gift to be Holy Spirit from God, given the Anointed. If anyone speaks, let him do so as speaking pronouncements from God; Pronouncements FROM GOD, which in my humble opinion would only be from those that can use the expression 'Abba Father' Galatians 4:6 Now because you are sons, God has sent the spirit of his Son into our hearts, and it cries out: “Abba, Father!” Romans 8:15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but you received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” The earthly class are not 'sons' of God, they are 'children' of God. If anyone speaks, let him do so as speaking pronouncements from God. Note it does not say AS IF speaking pronouncements from God. It says AS SPEAKING... to me that means it is directly speaking words from God. Acting as God's spokesperson, just as Jesus did whilst here on this Earth. I think only the Anointed have the right to do that. The rest of us are only 'helpers' to the Anointed, which relates to another scripture where Jesus says, 'as much as you did it for one of my brothers, you did it for me'. (Or words to that effect). And quote "The GB are not exclusively God's mouthpiece.. " Is that because the rest of the Anointed are ?

Yes Brother Jackson's comment / reply to questioning, has played on my mind a bit sometimes. I somehow related it to when the disciples reported to Jesus that other people were curing the sick using Jesus' name (I think) and Jesus said something like, 'Leave them alone for those that are not against us are for us'. (I think it's something like that anyway). Nearly 9pm here in Devon England. My brain is tired. Concerning Shiwiii's comment, I knew not to mention certain things inside of the Kingdom Hall for the obvious reasons of 'not causing a division in the congregation', however in the privacy of a brother's home we would often speak our minds to each other.

I'm noticing a lack of response from others here. And I'm noticing that you are 'in a way' admitting the things I've been saying for a long time. Thank you for your honesty. However it reminds me of a song, 'The More I learn The Less I know'. I seriously cannot understand why God is allowing these things to happen. My conscience would not allow me to go into the ministry with hit or miss teaching that may or may not be true. Especially if i were to offer a Bible study to someone that really wanted the 'Truth'. Only to worry that today's truth is tomorrow's falsehood. Where is the true foundation ? We have God and we have Jesus Christ, yes. But then all else seems to be just people's opinions. Even Bible translations cannot be trusted it seems.

@JW Insider So are you saying the God allowed these false teachings to be taught to those that were seeking truth ? And does it then follow that God is allowing the Governing Body to teach false teachings to those who are seeking truth now ? One other point, that is, if there were to be a second type of spiritual person, not good enough for the 144,000, but still going to heaven, that would mean they would still have to die as a human. Then if fleshly Israel was to rule over the paradise Earth, would people still die to go to heaven, to be part of that second spiritual type ?

@BillyTheKid46 Thank you for a sort of compliment 'a good egg'. I will try to answer you in a good honest way. Firsty. ( And i know people will not like this example ). When Hitler first became a known figure, was he considered a good man or wicked ? Did people follow him for his good thoughts and actions ? Was it not later when the power went to his head etc... that he became wicked ? You chose to use the scripture from Hebrews 13 v 17 " Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you, and be submissive... " But even this has created problems. Remember the scripture about 'ten men clinging to the robe of a Jew' ? Well the 'Jew' of course is the Anointed of God. They are anointed with Holy Spirit from God, whether through Jesus Christ or directly from God I do not know. But they are a complete Body, not just 8 men. If therefore, those taking the lead do not have authority to do so from God, then should they be obeyed ? Surely that would be showing worship to a false god ? A group of men that take away honour from God Himself. Then we follow up with the proven facts that the JW Organisation allows itself to be misused, thereby bringing shame on God's name. Perhaps, like Hitler may have started out with good intentions for his people, the GB may have started out with the intention of serving God properly, but, unfortunately the GB and the JW org have gone off track. I would like to point out to others here at this time, that you have turned this topic toward Child Abuse, which was not the intention of this topic. I mention this as I am frequently accused of turning all topics to that subject. I will not fall into the trap of staying on that subject. When the scriptures were written things were a lot simpler. The disciples / Apostles had the Hebrew writings and were in the process of recording Jesus' life here on earth. They were recording, for us, the things Jesus said and did. Then of course the Apostle Paul wrote to the congregations etc, and John was given the Revelation. I mention all this because those men had direct Holy Spirit from God to do their work. They were directed, directly from above, either by God or by Jesus Christ. However when anyone quotes scripture now, it become interpreted through men. The true meaning can so easily be lost. You mention Matthew 7, v1 " Do not judge ... " But unless we judge those taking the lead we may as well be following the Pope. 'The Pope has millions of followers so he must be right' Yes ? Do you see the point. We have to judge those taking the lead, or we may be 'the blind following the blind' and we may fall into the same pit. I'm sorry you mentioned this point Taking things out of context has always been a dishonest endeavor from opposers to command some kind of great intellect. Srecko once showed how the GB had taken a quote out of context to misuse it in a Watchtower magazine. I will admit i was impressed with his research and he showed the original paragraph in full, showing how the Watchtower writer had removed part of it to make it read in a different way. So, it seems both sides play the same games. Whereas it would presumed that the GB and the writing dept should be more honest. I do hope you recover quickly from your broken rib, and hope to read your words on hear again soon. Best Regards, John

@JW Insider Am i right in thinking that you are proving Russell had no guidance from God on these matters. Are you saying that Russell expected God to use the fleshly Nation of Israel to rule over this Earth. If so, why would God use the nation which He handed over to the Romans to destroy ? And where would it leave the preaching of the Good News Earthwide ? People from all nations etc. I do admit that it is all above me and I do wonder how much God actually expects us basic humans to understand. Digging into scriptures, reading God's word, surely does not involve all this ? If it does then many with good hearts will surely fail.

@TrueTomHarley " Not only is it possible to hold two contradictory ideas in one’s head at the same time.. " Do you mean to actually believe both sides, or do you mean to be considering both sides ? Anyone that does not consider both sides of a discussion is rather foolish of course. But I would find it impossible to believe both sides, though I might be able to understand why others should believe the opposite to me. Polarized thinking = black or white. Right or wrong. True or false. I think Jesus showed us the way on these things. The Bible makes clear not to mix the false with the truth. There is always a right way and a wrong way, everything else is just excuses.

Quote " I'm not judging you, but these questions sound legitimate with an element of true concern for people." My reply was "Thank you @JW Insider You are probably one of the very few here that feel that way. I am very concerned." I quote you "Actually, I think you are engaging in exaggerated thinking again. I am surely one of many who is very concerned." What I was meaning was that you are one of the few that seem to think that i am concerned for others. Sorry for confusion. Yes I'm sure others are also concerned.

Quote " I'm not judging you, but these questions sound legitimate with an element of true concern for people." Thank you @JW Insider You are probably one of the very few here that feel that way. I am very concerned. We should be willing to give our lives for others. But i don't see that love in the JW Org. And yes i do go OTT with expressions about 'all those mistakes' but there seems to be BOOKS that have been withdrawn, not just simple sentences or paragraphs, whole books. Has the Revelation book been officially withdrawn now ? Wherein it states on page 9 "It is not claimed that the explanations in this publication are infalible" Well, I think that says it all for me really. How many times did we study that book, three times cover to cover i think. And does it prove now to be false teachings ? How far wrong am I ? Would you judge me worse than those that pretend to be God's 'Faithful slave' ?

Ah I can see the game now. Make a private club for the snobs, then turn the public club into a comedy show. Think that will discourage us, I think not. Just proves what cowards and non loving people some JW's really are. Go tickle each others ears then................ Let your GB rule your lives, go worship them.

I would really like to see a list of scriptures that the GB misuse to make these loveless rules.

@JW Insider Thank you for your answers. I cannot understand why God would allow His "chosen faithful slave" to make so many mistakes. It makes no sense to me. If you were teaching a child any subject, you would teach them properly, give them true good advice, give them accurate information. Why would you let them get it all wrong ? What purpose is there in even having an Organisation that carries your name, if you give that organisation false information or allow it to use false information ? There is no sense, and, there is no LOVE in doing so. God is LOVE, I cannot see that He would allow such misguidance in an organisation that HE would have His own name on. Yes we know how God allowed the Nation of Israel to go astray etc, but according to some on here, we are so very close to the END that there is no time for all this misinformation and 'mistakes'. Some would say it's a testing, but for what ? Why would anyone want to stay in an organisation that cannot be trusted to teach truth ? And, how can anyone go into the ministry with lies, or mistakes ? Do you think that is really what God wants ?

Kid i like working in threes. So please give me three things that I do or follow that are 'misguided ideas'. It will give me something to think on. It is not scripture that's the problem, it's the interpretation of scripture that seems to be causing the GB and the JW Org problems. Plus also , many on here have their own ides as to what scriptures mean. Me, I'm just hoping that God will make it clear whom the true Anointed are, so that I can have a 'spiritual Jew' to cling to. As I've said before many times, the Scriptures were meant for the Anointed. The rest of us are just 'the other sheep'. I think that shows humility in a small way.

Quite a disappointing comment from you Anna, as i think you have actually supplied me with information previously which has helped me to give foundation to my accusations of the GB and it's Org. Note i said i think it was you that has helped me in that way, it may not have been. But now that you have the 'snobs' club I suppose you can use this club just to put rubbish on.

@BillyTheKid46 There you go Kid. I said TTH told me off sometimes. This is TTH and his sarcasm. So it's not just me that says things which may be considered out of line by some. I don't consider any of it out of line as i give as good as I take, but some get easily offended. TTH Do you have a problem with someone that wants to fight for truth ? At least I'm not writing books about JW's and hiding their lies. And "renunciation." Yes of the GB and it's JW org, and it's Watchtower Soc'. I'm still a firm believer in God, Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit, the Anointed and the Bible. As TTH indicates, I'm still fighting for truth.  Oh and i notice Kid, you had to cut my quote short as you didn't like the truth of it.

So in your opinion 'I never grew spiritually' only because i don't agree with everything you say. Very funny Kid. You say, " Intelligence comes with reasoning and thought " I would put up the scripture again but it would be of no use as you are so blind. But just remember that Jesus confirmed that God revealed His thoughts and purposes to 'little children', not to the highly intelligent ones. It has nothing to do with intelligence, it is all to do with 'spiritual wisdom' Kid. The Pope is probably intelligent and the Archbishops too, but look how far off line they are. OK, go back to your bickering about 1914. You seem to enjoy it. But I'm sure God will make it all clear if He wants to.

I remember, well sort of remember a scripture where Jesus said to his heavenly Father At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. So please tell me where all this that you are debating fits in ? If as 'little children' we are supposed to understand scripture then why such complications ? It seems to add proof to my idea about only the true Anointed fully understanding scripture. I do thank you however for confirming that the GB / Watchtower Soc' change teachings and ideas. It does add foundation to my criticism of the GB and the JW org.