JOHN BUTLER

This is all above me, so i only have one group of questions. Are you saying that the GB are telling lies ? Are making mistakes ? Are not guided by God's Holy Spirit ? Are you saying that the information that Witnesses go out on the ministry with is false information ? Are you saying that you disagree with the GB on this matter ?

Boring boring boring. But it's a hiding place for you all I suppose. Frightened of someone that is a bit assertive (not aggressive). A place to have your ears tickled. I think that is mentioned in God's word. I agree that arguments are pointless, but a bit of lively discussion never hurt anyone And at the very end I laughed to read 'No one is allowed to talk against the gods' sorry the GB.

Dream on Tom

Sorry Kid i don't quite understand where you are coming from. That i am here, is because I want to be here. I have no idea why others are gone. I suppose I will not be here if / when @admin decides to remove me. Are you saying that Admin 'disfellowshipped' others or that they 'faded' from the forum ? I came here for two reasons. The most important one was looking for 'truth'. The second reason was to give warning to anyone that would listen. I found no truth of course, only bickering between people that want to look clever. People such as yourself, lining up dates/years like bottles to be shot off of a wall. (see your above commnet). And although many of you deny that the things I mention are happening within the JW Org, I've made things known, as have others, so the option is then yours and others to choose how you handle the warnings.

@JW Insider It's called being light hearted. No point being angry about other people's viewpoints. Billy the Kid and I seem to disagree on most things, but it's not a problem for either of us it seems.

Other do insult. i've been called many different things. I take as good as i give. I don't think I'm aggressive, i think I'm assertive, but you may think as you wish of course. Space Merchant would often put me in my place and he has such a good memory too. TTH has been known to tell me off often. It's a forum, it's the internet, it is the nature of the beast. Enjoy. I mean no harm to any individual. I'm not one of those that goes out and protests in a nasty way, nor do i set fire to Kingdom Halls. Such action is horrible and i am totally against it. Although, once again, my name gets mixed in with people that do those things. But i can assure you i do not get involved in any protests at all. My only 'protesting' is on this forum, because I cannot talk to those i wish to, due to being shunned.

@JW Insider I think you put your faith in the Gb and it's Org, not in God. And when the message from that org keeps changing to suit the GB then how can anyone put faith in it ? When the legal dept can be seen as telling lies in courtrooms, the elders can be seen acting as policemen and just obeying the GB, and the congregations being frightened not of God but of the Gb and the Elders, then how can anyone even trust such an organisation ?

But it was your suggestion Kid. You want me removed. Why ?

I'll sort of agree to differ. One of the questions is, does a person have to be inside the JW org to survive Armageddon ? My point is that i cannot believe that God would expect a person to deliberately be inside an unclean organisation. So if God wanted people to be inside of JW Org to survive, the in my opinion God would make sure that people could plainly see that it was God's organisation. So if God does not make it clear, then once again in my opinion, it would not matter if a person was outside of that Org. I tend to think that God lets people know what He is doing and when. So I also tend to think that the Spiritual Jews will be clearly seen long before Armageddon occurs. And i don't think it is those 8 men in America..................

Oh dear Kid, are you so frightened of me ? You want me permanently removed ? That is so funny and i don't even hate you for it. Go find your blanket Kid. Go lay down. Jesus was 'eliminated' (or so they thought), for speaking the truth.

@JW Insider Quote "To be fair these other topics were often already related to the CSA issue." That is the whole point. All the topics are interwoven. TTH seems to want all the topics separated but it's not possible. As the GB has made its own rules on most things then they all seem to interrelate. But even biblical issues interrelate in a similar way. When you talk about Love, it involves many facets. As for Armageddon, well I'm 69 now, 70 this year, and I've started writing a sort of life history. I hope I will not be alive when Armageddon arrives, in fact to outlive this year would be a shame. My feeling is that God gave us 70 years and that mine is up this coming October. Time will tell. But as you were saying about who will survive. At this moment in time I do not believe that being a JW makes any difference at all. And if a person is not a JW because that person sees genuine faults in the JW Org, then i would think that the 'Judge' would take that into consideration. IF however the JW Org was fully cleansed and could be seen as being used by God, then maybe a person should be inside that Org. Along those lines, is one reason that i think Armageddon is a long way off. Because God has to either clean out the JW Org fully, or, God has to build a new org.

@TrueTomHarley I quote you "Most of your fellow malcontents.. " It is you that is part of an organisation not me. I do not have fellow anything. I stand alone. You seem to have to link me with others. Is it a fear you have ? Are you afraid to deal with a man that can actually stand on his own ? It seems you have to take comfort in thinking that i am part of a movement, a clan, or revolution or something. Sorry to disappoint you but I'm not part of anything, I am just me. I have my own thoughts and do my own deeds. The Elders seem to act the same way as you are acting. Demanding that everyone that leaves the Org is shunned. Pretending that everyone that leaves the JW Org has forsaken God. Lumping them all together, just as you seem to be doing. Homosexuality is wrong, fornication is wrong, smoking is wrong, drinking too much alcohol is wrong, telling lies is wrong, physical violence is wrong, child abuse of any sort is wrong, stealing is wrong, and so much more. I've left the JW Org Tom, I haven't left God or Jesus Christ. Bible principles still stand true in my life.

Tom I know you meant to post it here. You are a funny man. But of course some of us will be spoken about in your 'posh' private club. So be it. It seems you need to regroup to think up moe rubbish to hide the faults of your GB and you JW Org. Cowards, but there you are. God will, when He is ready, sort out the Org and the GB. Just as He sorted out the Pharisees. So it's not really a problem for me. Finding real truth is more important to me that worrying myself about people that bury their heads in the Org.

Tom I think you are blind to my reasoning. I spoke on many topics, not just Child Abuse. But it seems that i have made an impression on you in that regard, which is good. On another topic recently i mentioned many different things that give people reason to dislike or distrust the GB of JW Org. The shunning problem, the blood issue / blood fractions, the misuse of scripture, the changing of meaning of many scriptures. The denial that Elders are a Clergy Class. The 'Clergy privilege' excuse for hiding pedophiles within the Org. There are lots of things that are wrong with the GB and it's JW Org. Accusing two adults of fornication when NO witnesses are available. Allowing 3 year olds to put in Report slips as a means to make up the drop in numbers of JW's in the Org. Just a few there to start with. So please don't tell lies by saying my only point is the Child Abuse. The Child Abuse was the main reason i left the JW Org that's all. To balance things I did say that the protests in London were wrong. I even got into trouble on one of my own FB pages for saying that homosexuality is wrong in God's eyes. I've even said that some of the scriptural teachings are good and make sense. And I still believe in Armageddon but think it will be a long while yet. I even think it is possible for God to cleanse the JW Org and use it. So, ok sometimes I rant, but it is out of pure frustration, because so many JW's are blind to the faults of the Org. Not faults due to human imperfection, but faults due to deliberate turning away from serving God. So anyway enjoy your JW's Only Club.

I've just noticed I've been shunned on this very forum. It's so funny. The JW's Only, Closed club. Wow, i really am laughing. So the 'loyal club' does exist. Such a shame that they cannot face truth as it is now. So easy to hide behind closed doors. Oh well, so be it. Have fun patting each other on the back and pretending the JW Org is so so wonderful. But remember that it is God that judges, through Jesus Christ, so not much point in you congratulating each other if you don't have God's approval.

Seems like there are different levels coming as it seems the JW debates are being divided into the Open JW's and the Loyal JW's. Unless that was a wind up. But Tom writes books, to earn money I would imagine, so of course 'he can live with that'. Would be such a shame if all the loyal ones go and hide though. Would mean they are not seeking truth at all, just wanting their ears tickled.

Very good Tom, nice sense of humour

It's never irrelevant Tom, the truth is you find it a thorn in your side as do all JW's. I don't hate, well I try not to hate anyone, but I do hate the 'goings on' in the JW Org, the hidden things that congregants are not supposed to know about. A bit cowardly though not being open to debate. But only to be expected from JW's that are hiding from the truth. I hope you are well Tom and having a good start to this new year. I know it's only numbers, years that is, but each January does give some folks new hopes. Each day is another day closer to Judgement Day / Armageddon. I do hope the JW Org is sorted out in time, or another Org is formed to take its place. So are we only going to read comments from people that find fault in the JW Org here ? Are the rest of you going to be on the 'Loyal' forum, having your ears tickled

@TrueTomHarley He is good at zany storytelling. zany /ˈzeɪni/ adjective adjective: zany; comparative adjective: zanier; superlative adjective: zaniest 1. amusingly unconventional and idiosyncratic. "his zany humour" synonyms: eccentric, bizarre, weird, peculiar, odd, quirky, avant-garde, unconventional, off-centre, strange, outlandish, ridiculous, ludicrous; More Well yep you said it Tom. Tom you are indeed a weird storyteller, your own words i think. I read that page you linked too and it's total untruth and ridiculous, ludicrous rubbish, bit I'm sure you enjoy the GB's rules of 'spiritual warfare', which in truth means telling lies. You know why people are turning against the JW Org. Child abuse is one of the biggest issues. You know that. The Elders, on one hand pretending not to be a 'clergy class', then on the other hand using 'Clergy Privilege' to hide criminals within the JW Org. The GB giving instructions that lies can be told to protect the JW Org and the GB, but calling it spiritual warfare. The Blood Issue seeming contradictory by saying NO blood but any amount of fractions which is made from blood. The Shunning problem, a rule made up by the GB and enforced by the Elders. The list of genuine concerns goes on. The GB and their ranks below them, right down to the Elders, show no love or mercy, just laws and rules. Just as the religious leaders did in Jesus' time. And if anyone dare, like me, find fault in the JW Org or the top 'brass', the GB, then we are branded Apostates. Well I for one am proud to be an Apostate to a religion that enjoys telling lies, makes up rules from nothing, misuses scriptures, changes meaning of scriptures when it suits them, hides pedophiles within it, misuses the law of the land to suit their own purposes, and then asks for money to cover all the expencies / fines when the courts finally catch up wit them. Remember this Tom, an Apostate turns against a former religion, an apostate does not turn against GOD or JESUS CHRIST.

OK, not really a topic, but I'm confused J W's Open Club ? this one that I've just joined. What happened to the other JW club ? Do you know I cannot even remember what it was called. Was it JW's Private club ? Any way did i miss something happening and if so what, when and why ??? Thanks.

Oh dear you really do love yourself don' t you? You are so funny. Quote "I understand the scriptures ... " Um, everyone here on earth could say that. You seem to mix up serving God, with serving your GB and JW Org. How sad that you cannot understand the difference. Serve God through Jesus Christ, yes. But not serve God, through Jesus Christ, through the GB of JW Org. When the GB can realise that they are not in charge, and when the Elders can realise that they are not superior to the Anointed, then maybe, just maybe, God and Jesus Christ can use the Org as it was meant to function. the heart is treacherous and always wants to be independent.... Oh yes, and we can see that in your GB.

@Arauna Quote "Accusations, accusations of being institutionalized problem." Well it seems to be quite widely spread within the JW Org doesn't it ? Or as I've said to others, do you not believe any of the victims evidence ? Quote " all I see is a lot of whiners about sex abuse and they only have hearsay as proof " Um, that kind of proves you do not believe any of the victims I suppose. As a victim of child abuse myself, I have empathy for others. Quote "We do our duty in the congregation " what a large generalisation that is. Many of the Child Abuse cases are against ELDERS. Elders that are supposed to be protecting the congregation. And, many of the cases are dismissed as lies. The two witness rule that you don't seem to believe happens. So, it could quite easily be that, if for example here in the UK an inquiry found evidence of 500 cases of Child Abuse allegations, there could have been another 500 that were dismissed by Elders as lies, and therefore not recorded. What a wonderful ploy it would be to show only half the figures. Wow, look the JW Org recorded Child Abuse accusations, but how much evidence did they destroy to only show what they wanted to show ? There was a video actually put up on this forum which shows that instruction was given to destroy evidence. but of course you will not believe that either, because you are so blind. To be slightly balanced. A lot of the scriptural teachings are great. Not perfect I suppose but good. And I would say that being 'within' the Org in my wild youth, may have helped me to have more moral standards than i otherwise might have had. But i do realise i was stupid enough back then to just accept all I was taught. My older brother was a JW and he did a lot to support me whilst I was going through a really bad time. So i thought if he believes it then it must be true. Crazy notion I realise now. Having come out of a very wicked situation back then, and having found the congregation so pleasant and helpful, i was fooled into a false sense of security. Knowing what i know now, I can see the reality. That is balance. I do know the wicked world, I do know the JW org. I have been in at least three congregations in Southern England, having moved around a bit. I can compare situations. I'm not as naive as you pretend I am. You on the other hand appear blind to the reality of what your JW Org is really like. i'm not saying it's not the Organisation that God will use, but I'm saying God has to clean it out thoroughly now. And God may by using humans to help him just as He as done in the past.

So it seems you are saying, as i have said before, that the JW Org is God's chosen Organisation, but at this moment in time it is way out of line.

I think the point is to know that Humans are not the important issue here. Was God in fact being tested by rebellious Angels ? God could easily have 'removed' Adam and Eve. BUT that would not have satisfied the Angels questions. God not only had to do what was right, but in the eyes of the Angels, God had to be seen to be doing what was right. God was being challenged by an at least one Angel. So God had to answer that challenge. Personally I would have wiped out the wicked Angels and Adam And Eve, then started over, but that is just me . If I were God my thinking would be that i didn't have to prove anything to anyone. However. thousands of years of suffering by humans has existed, because God has to prove His point to the Devil and the demons (wicked angels). Why ? So that the challenge by an Angel will not happen again. We are told, and it is of course true, that God's thoughts are much higher than our thoughts. However God created us with the intelligence to question everything. So, it seems God gives us the opportunity to help Him to answer the challenge from the Devil. However it also seems that God, in some cases, preplans a person's life, to serve God's purpose. ( As in original post ). Mary was chosen to give birth to Jesus. And who was it was chosen ? to give birth to John the Baptiser. In a similar way, I suppose the Anointed are chosen, either by God or by Jesus christ. And again, I presume, God or Jesus Christ, choses to whom Holy Spirit will be given to understand scripture. In my opinion the two above lines of writing concern the same people. The Anointed are chosen and Holy Spirit is given to them to understand scripture. Then through the Anointed, (the spiritual Jew that the ten men cling on to ), people can prove their faith in God, and in so doing prove the Devil is wrong. One question is, were the Anointed pre-chosen from before they were born, just as Jacob was chosen ? The Apostle Paul seems to say that they were. Question number Two is rather more important to us though. How do we truly know who the Anointed really are ?

@Arauna I can tell you are on autopilot, automatically defending the GB and its JW Org. So there is no point in me making a sensible reply. You do sound like a robot though, spewing out all the GB dribble like a computer gone wrong. Quite entertaining for a Sunday morning.