JOHN BUTLER

6 hours ago, Anna said:

Just in case anyone is interested here are the 'closed club' rules:

• This club is intended for active publishers associated with Jehovah’s Witnesses only. Anyone who does not fall into this category will be denied membership.
• Members should keep in mind that an opinion on something of a doctrinal nature that is not in line with current understanding does not mean that the current understanding is wrong. Therefore it’s not necessary to take offense, or start defending current understanding just for the sake of it, without actually presenting a reasonable counter argument.  
• Members must realize that one of the objectives of this club is that members should feel comfortable expressing their ideas and discussing things which can be viewed as controversial, as long as these do not become dogmatic and/or are aggressively promoted. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and it works both ways.
• Biblical principles to keep in mind: (2 Timothy 2:23-25) Further, reject foolish and ignorant debates, knowing that they produce fights. For a slave of the Lord does not need to fight, but needs to be gentle toward all, qualified to teach, showing restraint when wronged,  instructing with mildness those not favorably disposed..
• (Titus 3:9, 10)  But have nothing to do with foolish arguments and genealogies and disputes and fights over the Law, for they are unprofitable and futile. As for a man who promotes a sect, reject him after a first and a second admonition
• (1 Peter 3:15) . . .always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have, but doing so with a mild temper and deep respect.
• (1 Thessalonians 5:21) Make sure of all things, hold fast to what is fine.
• (1 John 4:1) Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired statement, but test the inspired statements to see whether they originate with God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
• Not allowed: obscene, vulgar, and/or hateful talk, racist remarks, ad hominem attacks (against anyone, which includes the GB), trolling, and links to apostate websites.

Boring boring boring. But it's a hiding place for you all I suppose. 

Frightened of someone that is a bit assertive (not aggressive). 

A place to have your ears tickled. I think that is mentioned in God's word. 

I agree that arguments are pointless, but a bit of lively discussion never hurt anyone  

And at the very end I laughed to read 'No one is allowed to talk against the gods' sorry the GB.

5 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Not hardly!! Did you take note at how I knocked the formidable JTR out of the ring? I’ll have you for lunch!

 

By the way, I’m reading a new author of science fiction, Darth Dethway. In a very exciting chapter, the evil alien says:

”Surrender, earthlings! You have no chance!   Zip...zero...nada!”

Do you think?

Dream on Tom  

11 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I believe that was my point. What makes you different from others that you are here while others are gone.

Sorry Kid i don't quite understand where you are coming from.

That i am here, is because I want to be here. I have no idea why others are gone. 

I suppose I will not be here if / when @admin decides to remove me.

Are you saying that Admin 'disfellowshipped' others or that they 'faded' from the forum ?

I came here for two reasons. The most important one was looking for 'truth'. 

The second reason was to give warning to anyone that would listen. 

I found no truth of course, only bickering between people that want to look clever. People such as yourself, lining up dates/years like bottles to be shot off of a wall. (see your above commnet). 

And although many of you deny that the things I mention are happening within the JW Org, I've made things known, as have others, so the option is then yours and others to choose how you handle the warnings. 

@JW Insider It's called being light hearted.    No point being angry about other people's viewpoints. 

Billy the Kid and I seem to disagree on most things, but it's not a problem for either of us it seems.  

2 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Your mistaken Butler, I enjoy your comments, aside from the child abuse which is a serious matter, your understanding of scripture is an enjoyable experience and humorous. But, if you are allowed to insult, be aggressive, why not others, that's my outtake.

Other do insult. i've been called many different things. I take as good as i give. I don't think I'm aggressive, i think I'm assertive, but you may think as you wish of course. Space Merchant would often put me in my place and he has such a good memory too. TTH has been known to tell me off often. It's a forum, it's the internet, it is the nature of the beast. Enjoy.

I mean no harm to any individual. I'm not one of those that goes out and protests in a nasty way, nor do i set fire to Kingdom Halls. Such action is horrible and i am totally against it.  Although, once again, my name gets mixed in with people that do those things.  But i can assure you i do not get involved in any protests at all. My only 'protesting' is on this forum, because  I cannot talk to those i wish to, due to being shunned. 

@JW Insider I think you put your faith in the Gb and it's Org, not in God.   And when the message from that org keeps changing to suit the GB then how can anyone put faith in it ? 

When the legal dept can be seen as telling lies in courtrooms, the elders can be seen acting as policemen and just obeying the GB, and the congregations being frightened not of God but of the Gb and the Elders, then how can anyone even trust such an organisation ? 

2 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

of you! 😂 they remove someone without it being the same across the board. It seems the fear is found elsewhere.  

But it was your suggestion Kid. You want me removed. Why ? 

2 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

That's the same kind of mistake I was referring to above. We can't base our beliefs about the timing of Armageddon on anything we think might have to happen first here on earth. Jesus wove the first century parousia on Jerusalem right into the parousia on the entire earth using the word immediately to tie the two together.

• (Matthew 24:29-31) 29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity.

I'll sort of agree to differ. One of the questions is, does a person have to be inside the JW org to survive Armageddon ?

My point is that i cannot believe that God would expect a person to deliberately be inside an unclean organisation. 

So if God wanted people to be inside of JW Org to survive, the in my opinion God would make sure that people could plainly see that it was God's organisation. So if God does not make it clear, then once again in my opinion, it would not matter if a person was outside of that Org.  

I tend to think that God lets people know what He is doing and when. So I also tend to think that the Spiritual Jews will be clearly seen long before Armageddon occurs.  And i don't think it is those 8 men in America.................. 

23 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I wonder. I believe they eliminate AllenSmith34. Why not this one? or does this mean anyone can apply for work, lol!

 

Oh dear Kid, are you so frightened of me ?  You want me permanently removed ?  That is so funny and i don't even hate you for it. 

Go find your blanket Kid. Go lay down.  Jesus was 'eliminated' (or so they thought), for speaking the truth. 

@JW Insider Quote "To be fair these other topics were often already related to the CSA issue." 

That is the whole point. All the topics are interwoven.  TTH seems to want all the topics separated but it's not possible. 

As the GB has made its own rules on most things then they all seem to interrelate. 

But even biblical issues interrelate in a similar way. When you talk about Love, it involves many facets. 

As for Armageddon, well I'm 69 now, 70 this year, and I've started writing a sort of life history. I hope I will not be alive when Armageddon arrives, in fact to outlive this year would be a shame. My feeling is that God gave us 70 years and that mine is up this coming October. Time will tell. 

But as you were saying about who will survive. At this moment in time I do not believe that being a JW makes any difference at all. And if a person is not a JW because that person sees genuine faults in the JW Org, then i would think that the 'Judge' would take that into consideration. IF however the JW Org was fully cleansed and could be seen as being used by God, then maybe a person should be inside that Org. Along those lines, is one reason that i think Armageddon is a long way off. Because God has to either clean out the JW Org fully, or, God has to build a new org. 

@TrueTomHarley I quote you "Most of your fellow malcontents.. " 

It is you that is part of an organisation not me. I do not have fellow anything. I stand alone. 

You seem to have to link me with others. Is it a fear you have ? Are you afraid to deal with a man that can actually stand on his own ?

It seems you have to take comfort in thinking that i am part of a movement, a clan, or revolution or something. Sorry to disappoint you but I'm not part of anything, I am just me.  I have my own thoughts and do my own deeds. 

The Elders seem to act the same way as you are acting. Demanding that everyone that leaves the Org is shunned. Pretending that everyone that leaves the JW Org has forsaken God. Lumping them all together, just as you seem to be doing.

Homosexuality is wrong, fornication is wrong,  smoking is wrong, drinking too much alcohol is wrong, telling lies is wrong, physical violence is wrong, child abuse of any sort is wrong, stealing is wrong, and so much more. 

I've left the JW Org Tom, I haven't left God or Jesus Christ. Bible principles still stand true in my life. 

1 minute ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Ahh...brothers, isn’t it nice and peaceful now that the loudmouth @JOHN BUTLER is not around.  Boy, he sure could...YIKES!! I’ve posted in the wrong club! Abort, Librarian (you old hen) abort! Take this down!

Tom I know you meant to post it here. You are a funny man. 

But of course some of us will be spoken about in your 'posh' private club. So be it. It seems you need to regroup to think up moe rubbish to hide the faults of your GB and you JW Org.  Cowards, but there you are. 

God will, when He is ready, sort out the Org and the GB. Just as He sorted out the Pharisees. So it's not really a problem for me.

Finding real truth is more important to me that worrying myself about people that bury their heads in the Org. 

18 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

I think it was formed specifically with you in mind, because if the discussion veered toward the UN, you would return it to your ONE AND ONLY TOPIC.

If it went towards the immortality of the soul, you would return it to your ONE AND ONLY TOPIC.

If a pleasant discussion of Mozart ensued, or Plato, you would return it to your ONE AND ONLY TOPIC.

Nobody could hear themselves think with your perpetual crying. What choice did anyone have?

Tom I think you are blind to my reasoning. I spoke on many topics, not just Child Abuse. 

But it seems that i have made an impression on you in that regard, which is good. 

On another topic recently i mentioned many different things that give people reason to dislike or distrust the GB of JW Org. 

The shunning problem, the blood issue / blood fractions, the misuse of scripture, the changing of meaning of many scriptures. The denial that Elders are a Clergy Class. The 'Clergy privilege'  excuse for hiding pedophiles within the Org.  There are lots of things that are wrong with the GB and it's JW Org.  Accusing two adults of fornication when NO witnesses are available. Allowing 3 year olds to put in Report slips as a means to make up the drop in numbers of JW's in the Org. Just a few there to start with.

So please don't tell lies by saying my only point is the Child Abuse. The Child Abuse was the main reason i left the JW Org that's all.

To balance things I did say that the protests in London were wrong. I even got into trouble on one of my own FB pages for saying that homosexuality is wrong in God's eyes. I've even said that some of the scriptural teachings are good and make sense.  And I still believe in Armageddon but think it will be a long while yet. I even think it is possible for God to cleanse the JW Org and use it. 

So, ok sometimes I rant, but it is out of pure frustration, because so many JW's are blind to the faults of the Org. Not faults due to human imperfection, but faults due to deliberate turning away from serving God. 

So anyway enjoy your JW's Only Club. 

I've just noticed I've been shunned on this very forum. It's so funny. The JW's Only, Closed club.  Wow, i really am laughing. 

So the 'loyal club' does exist. Such a shame that they cannot face truth as it is now. So easy to hide behind closed doors. 

Oh well, so be it. Have fun patting each other on the back and pretending the JW Org is so so wonderful. But remember that it is God that judges, through Jesus Christ,  so not much point in you congratulating each other if you don't have God's approval. 

18 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Would this mean for everyone? or just a few that wouldn't have a problem with debating in the level as it is given.

Seems like there are different levels coming as it seems the JW debates are being divided into the Open JW's and the Loyal JW's. Unless that was a wind up. But Tom writes books, to earn money I would imagine, so of course 'he can live with that'. 

Would be such a shame if all the loyal ones go and hide though. Would mean they are not seeking truth at all, just wanting their ears tickled. 

6 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Debating is not the same as refusing to shut up once your point has been addressed.

It is as I close out my books, speaking in the third person for the sake of sounding more majestic than I actually am - in an attempt to forestall people like you:

“Sometimes people disagree. He can live with that.”

Very good Tom, nice sense of humour  

1 minute ago, TrueTomHarley said:

There IS something strange going on. I think the Librarian (the old hen) is trying to separate warring factions for the sake of decorum. I had to “join” a club to confront the malcontents, in a forum where anything goes & so I suspect that anyone can join here.

You might find it harder to join the “loyal” JW forum, because you have proven that you can speak about only one thing, and, as often as not, you insert it where it is completely irrelevant.

It's never irrelevant Tom, the truth is you find it a thorn in your side as do all JW's. I don't hate, well I try not to hate anyone, but I do hate the 'goings on' in the JW Org, the hidden things that congregants are not supposed to know about. 

A bit cowardly though not being open to debate. But only to be expected from JW's that are hiding from the truth. 

I hope you are well Tom and having a good start to this new year. I know it's only numbers, years that is, but each January does give some folks new hopes. 

Each day is another day closer to Judgement Day / Armageddon. I do hope the JW Org is sorted out in time, or another Org is formed to take its place. 

So are we only going to read comments from people that find fault in the JW Org here ? 

Are the rest of you going to be on the 'Loyal' forum, having your ears tickled  

@TrueTomHarley He is good at zany storytelling. 

OK, not really a topic, but I'm confused  

J W's Open Club ?  this one that I've just joined.

What happened to the other JW club ?  Do you know I cannot even remember what it was called.

Was it JW's Private club ?  Any way did i miss something happening and if so what, when and why ??? 

Thanks. 

9 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I think you have made up your own version of what is in the bible - that is why you are at odds with the GB.   The root cause of mankind's problems was the choosing of independence from Jehovah.  The inability to cooperate and be part of his people we see many examples of - like Corah.  He was so sure he had God's blessing!  poor man.  Luckily Jehovah did not put him in Gehenna - only Sheol.

I understand the scriptures - so I ask you the same question.....  Who has hold over you? ....  the heart is treacherous and always wants to be independent....

 

Oh dear you really do love yourself don' t you? You are so funny.

Quote "I understand the scriptures ... "     Um, everyone here on earth could say that. 

You seem to mix up serving God, with serving your GB and JW Org.  How sad that you cannot understand the difference.

Serve God through Jesus Christ, yes. But not serve God, through Jesus Christ, through the GB of JW Org. 

When the GB can realise that they are not in charge, and when the Elders can realise that they are not superior to the Anointed, then maybe, just maybe, God and Jesus Christ can use the Org as it was meant to function. 

the heart is treacherous and always wants to be independent.... Oh yes, and we can see that in your GB. 

@Arauna Quote "Accusations, accusations of being institutionalized problem." Well it seems to be quite widely spread within the JW Org doesn't it ? Or as I've said to others, do you not believe any of the victims evidence ? 

Quote " all I see is a lot of whiners about sex abuse and they only have hearsay as proof " 

Um, that kind of proves you do not believe any of the victims I suppose. 

As a victim of child abuse myself, I have empathy for others. 

Quote "We do our duty in the congregation "  what a large generalisation that is. 

Many of the Child Abuse cases are against ELDERS. Elders that are supposed to be protecting the congregation.

And, many of the cases are dismissed as lies. The two witness rule that you don't seem to believe happens. 

So, it could quite easily be that, if for example here in the UK an inquiry found evidence of 500 cases of Child Abuse allegations, there  could have been another 500 that were dismissed by Elders as lies, and therefore not recorded. 

What a wonderful ploy it would be to show only half the figures. Wow, look the JW Org recorded Child Abuse accusations, but how much evidence did they destroy to only show what they wanted to show ? 

There was a video actually put up on this forum which shows that instruction was given to destroy evidence. but of course you will not believe that either, because you are so blind. 

To be slightly balanced. A lot of the scriptural teachings are great. Not perfect I suppose but good. And I would say that being 'within' the Org in my wild youth, may have helped me to have more moral standards than i otherwise might have had. 

But i do realise i was stupid enough back then to just accept all I was taught. My older brother was a JW and he did a lot to support me whilst I was going through a really bad time. So i thought if he believes it then it must be true. Crazy notion I realise now. 

Having come out of a very wicked situation back then, and having found the congregation so pleasant and helpful, i was fooled into a false sense of security.  Knowing what i know now, I can see the reality.

That is balance. I do know the wicked world, I do know the JW org. I have been in at least three congregations in Southern England, having moved around a bit.  I can compare situations. I'm not as naive as you pretend I am. 

You on the other hand appear blind to the reality of what your JW Org is really like. 

i'm not saying it's not the Organisation that God will use, but I'm saying God has to clean it out thoroughly now. 

And God may by using humans to help him just as He as done in the past. 

11 hours ago, Kosonen said:

@Bible Speaks  It is a good thing to be maellable in God's hands instead of being stiff-necked as the Isrealites were.

And as long as the elders really give advise strictly according to the scripture it is good to listen to their advice. But unfortunately a whole lot of their advices based on the WT and elders' letters are commandments of men and  WT org traditions and falsely applied scriptures. The same old things happens as when Jesus was on earth. Those who were responsible of the spiritual education in Israel and those who served at God's temple had gone astray in many aspects. And when Jesus tried to correct them, majority of them refused to be corrected. 

So how will it be this time when the judgement will begin with the house of God as apostle Peter wrote? Hopefully a majority will not refuse to be corrected. But who knows? 

 

 

So it seems you are saying, as i have said before, that the JW Org is God's chosen Organisation, but at this moment in time it is way out of line. 

I think the point is to know that Humans are not the important issue here.  

Was God in fact being tested by rebellious Angels ?  God could easily have 'removed' Adam and Eve. BUT that would not have satisfied the Angels questions. 

God not only had to do what was right, but in the eyes of the Angels, God had to be seen to be doing what was right. 

God was being challenged by an at least one Angel. So God had to answer that challenge. 

Personally I would have wiped out the wicked Angels and Adam And Eve, then started over, but that is just me . If I were God my thinking would be that i didn't have to prove anything to anyone. 

However. thousands of years of suffering by humans has existed, because God has to prove His point to the Devil and the demons (wicked angels). Why ? So that the challenge by an Angel will not happen again.

We are told, and it is of course true, that God's thoughts are much higher than our thoughts. However God created us with the intelligence to question everything. 

So, it seems God gives us the opportunity to help Him to answer the challenge from the Devil. 

However it also seems that God, in some cases, preplans a person's life, to serve God's purpose. ( As in original post ).

Mary was chosen to give birth to Jesus. And who was it was chosen ? to give birth to John the Baptiser.  

In a similar way, I suppose the Anointed are chosen, either by God or by Jesus christ. 

And again,  I presume, God or Jesus Christ, choses to whom Holy Spirit will be given to understand scripture. 

In my opinion the two above lines of writing concern the same people. The Anointed are chosen and Holy Spirit is given to them to understand scripture. 

Then through the Anointed, (the spiritual Jew that the ten men cling on to ), people can prove their faith in God, and in so doing prove the Devil is wrong. 

One question is, were the Anointed pre-chosen from before they were born, just as Jacob was chosen ?

The Apostle Paul seems to say that they were.  

Question number Two is rather more important to us though. How do we truly know who the Anointed really are ? 

@Arauna  I can tell you are on autopilot, automatically defending the GB and its JW Org. So there is no point in me making a sensible reply. You do sound like a robot though, spewing out all the GB dribble like a computer gone wrong. 

Quite entertaining for a Sunday morning. 

On 12/28/2017 at 10:35 PM, Bible Speaks said:

"As the clay in the hand of the potter, so you are in my hand, O house of Israel."—Jer. 18:6. ~ ??⚱️??

⚱️Let Jehovah Mold Your Thinking and Conduct

⚱️A potter molds a clay vessel

⚱️Respond favorably to Jehovah’s molding 18:1-11

⚱️Jehovah shapes our spiritual qualities  through counsel or discipline

⚱️We need to be malleable and obedient

⚱️Jehovah never forces us to do things against our will

⚱️A potter may change his mind about what to do with a vessel

??⚱️??

⚱️Because Jehovah has given us free will, we can choose either to accept his molding or to reject it

⚱️Jehovah adjusts his dealings with people according to the way they respond to his direction

⚱️As an example of being molded by the Great Potter, a Christian brother walks away from two elders but later returns to talk with them

⚱️In what ways do I need Jehovah to mold me?

??⚱️??

DID YOU KNOW?

⚱️Broken pieces of clay beside a clay pot

⚱️Clay was a common material in Bible times. When moist, clay is soft and pliable, and it will maintain the impressions made on it. But clay, even when baked hard, is not a strong material. -

??⚱️??

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/202017123?q=jer+18%3A6&p=par

Very SLY of you.

You start off right of course.  We should be mounded by GOD through JESUS CHRIST.

But you soon go off course. Very slyly changing the idea from being moulded by those who have the right to mould us.

You then mention the Elders. That is where you go totally wrong.

The Elders do not do God's work. Even the Governing Body do not do God's work.

You misuse scripture totally and God through Jesus Christ will judge you for it.