JOHN BUTLER

3 minutes ago, Arauna said:

Can someone please tell me what the laws were in the 1950s, 1960, 1970 and 1980s in most countries of the world?   If you can answer this then I am prepared to talk to you.  You seem to rush to condemn the organization for not doing something when there were not yet laws in place.... so hurry and do some research!

 

Quote " then I am prepared to talk to you. "  Do you think some of us care if you will talk to us or not. Why are you trying to make yourself seem so important that we need to justify ourselves to you ? Typical JW attitude, thinking too much of yourself. 

God's laws have been there for far longer than man's laws. Hence a true Christian knows what is the right action to take and never needs the law of the land to guide them in that way. 

Are you suggesting that here in the UK, and in USA, Australia, Canada, that it was actually legal to rape or sexually abuse young children ?

And are you suggesting that if a law of the land was not in place then you would happily stand by and let it happen ?

Typical JW stand on the matter. But when a law of the land is in place to join the Armed forces you will disobey it. Rightly so because God does not want a person to go to war. So when it seems suitable to disobey the law then you disobey it.

But,  you seem to need a law of the land, to make you obey God's law, on Love and protection and care of young children, and adults that need your help within the JW Org, and those that have had to leave because of the disgusting abuse.  

How strange that you would choose when to serve God and when not to. 

Your GB have proven themselves to treat the victims of child abuse within the JW Org as collateral damage. This is typical American thinking.

Your GB has proven that they see themselves and the JW Organisation as more important than serving God or Jesus christ. 

Your GB has proven that they do not love the people of the congregation. And this is only in the Countries that we know about.

I honestly fear for the children in countries like India, Pakistan, Africa, from where we have no news of the abuse. What terrible things are happening to children there.  

I think the GB and JW Org should be more worried about what shame they are bringing on God's name.  

11.25 pm Friday,  That's over 24 hours and NO reply from local Police on the matter. 

We will have to agree to differ. If you believe in a Judgement day / Armageddon time, then all people on the Earth have to be given a warning. 

The 'model prayer' asks for God's will to be done here on Earth as well as in heaven, that is one reason I fully believe that humans will live here on this Earth in perfect conditions. Though we come to this word perfect again, and I mean it in as much as conditions that God wants to exist. 

So i also believe that an Earthwide teaching work is needed to help people know what God wants from us. To do this the Anointed need to work together, that means being 'organised'. Whether you want to use the word Organisation is up to you. But in my opinion the work needs to be organised. 

I have no idea who the Anointed are. I have no real idea of what truth is anymore. I have no idea when the Judgement day will come. BUT,  I am not prepared to listen to just anyone that says they are anointed. 

I have what i will call snippets. Little bits of what I believe. But I'm a simple practical man, hence I complain about the Child Abuse, because it's a simple practical issue, though some on here try to complicate it, to make excuses for their leaders.

Although I no nothing for sure, it is my feeling that the Judgement day / time, is a long way off. My reasoning is that people need time to find the 'truth' from God through Jesus Christ, and conditions need to be much worse Earthwide so that people can see the seriousness of it all, and see the need for God's rule to take place.. 

Now i will be 70 this year, so i do not think I will see the Judgement day. And God's word says about the resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. I am definitely of the unrighteous, but if I'm right my death will guarantee me a resurrection. Time will tell. 

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Once again, I see your ignorance perceives you. But, I wouldn’t expect you to follow the applicable laws of the land much less scriptural canon.

As for disliking secular law, Will let’s just say, I have personal experience to prove you wrong. Also, no one that I know of within the organization serves the Watchtower. That’s just silly in your part. The faithful serve God, with the aid of God’s helpers. This means no oneness. You might just as well believe in Trinity.

Your service is with “desire” that you have chosen for yourself. James 1:14, Romans 16:18

 

Oh dear Kid you are like a baby throwing it's toys out of the pram.

You accuse me of this, that and the other, with totally no proof of anything, but it's all in your head Kid. 

I think i followed the law of the land here in England by offering information about a possible sex offence. I made no accusation, just offered information. 

As for not following scripture, give me three examples please ?  I love working in threes. I was always taught by JW Org, repetition for emphasis. 

I have personal reasons for disliking the legal system here in England, but that doesn't mean i will deliberately disobey it.  

I don't think I ever mentioned anyone serving the Watchtower. I said they serve the Governing Body. 

I agree the true faithful serve God, through Jesus Christ, not through your GB or your JW Org.

Neither of your scriptures relate to your accusations toward me. You said I was serving an organisation.  Wrong. 

If you have any position of responsibility in your congregation then i pity anyong that needs help within. 

You would twist anyone's words just to protect your JW Org.

I know that your GB has given you all permission to tell lies, but that comes from your GB, not from God or Jesus Christ. 

Kid you write a lot of words to actually say nothing of importance. 

All this idea of saying 'lock her / him up' is coming from you not me. As for 'yelling off the rooftops' that is not me either. 

I just gave you the reason i left the JW Org, as you seemed to be telling the world that i am serving some sort of Organisation.

But you've failed again I see. You haven't given any proof of me serving anyone. 

As for me contacting the police, I'm still waiting for a reply from them. 

And those 'authorities' which you seem to dislike, the bible tells us they are there because God wants them there, to do a job, to deal with people that break the law of the land. So are you telling me that Child Abuse in the UK and America is not breaking the law now ?

Quote @BillyTheKid46  "It seems you’re the one that is an organizational-pleaser just like Srecko, Butler, Witness, and whoever opposes the teaching of Christ .."

Kid you said and i quote "Let’s look at things in a rational realm of realism ..." 

Well I left the JW Org because of all the Child Abuse within it. Now you either believe that it has happened and is still happening, or you don't.  But I think it has been proven to be in the 'rational realm of realism' that you are looking for..  If you think it is all lies of course then I suppose we have no basis for conversation. But i think many cases have been well proven to be true.

So please tell, with proof of course, exactly what organisation you think i am trying to please. I am opposing the rulers of an earthly organisation, and  'in a rational realm of realism' I am opposing those leaders of an earthly organisation, namely the Governing Body of the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. That same Governing Body rules over the Watchtower Soc'. So you may say that i am opposing the rulers of that Watchtower Soc'.  Because in a rational realm of realism, you cannot oppose an inanimate object. I am also opposing anyone that blindly serves the Governing Body of those two 'organisations', which will of course include the Elders of congregations within the JW Organisation, and any others, such as the people of the Writing department, Bethel workers, and some ordinary members of congregations too. My opposition is not fierce, not aggressive, it's assertive. 

As for opposing the teachings of Christ, that is a strong accusation. What proof do you have that i oppose the teachings of Christ ?

I believe as much of the Bible as i can understand. I think that is an honest statement. I don't pretend to be able to interpret all scripture. I am a sinner as is everyone here on this earth. But my reason for leaving the JW Org was a genuine one and since leaving i have done further research into the GB / writing dept' / Watchtower / JW Org, and have found it desperately failing to do God's will. 

It seems that you " compare the teachings of false religion with that of the Watchtower " I prefer to compare the teachings of the Watchtower to that of God's written word the Bible. Why would i even be interested in the teachings of false religion ? 

I would ask that if you reply please keep your answer within the 'rational realm of realism' that you seem to want to view things through. In doing so you would need to give proof of any accusations against me. 

About an hour ago I messaged the local police by private messenger system to ask if they have a private email address for me to give them the details that I have. The messenger system is too difficult to send a large message on and an email I could save a copy for myself for my reference. 

This local police force covers the town in which i live and the town where the congregation is.  When / if I receive a reply i will give them all the details i have. By doing it via email I will be able to word it carefully so that I do not accuse the young man, but just give the facts as they were given to me... 

Then if this young man does something wrong, the police will at least have reference to him. It really is a great shame that i do not have the victims name of details, as I am more concerned for her welfare. Hopefully if the police investigate, they will get full details if indeed the accusation actually took place. 

I know it's wrong of me to judge anyone, especially in such a serious situation. So I will give the police details as to me leaving the JW Org and as to why they may not wish to believe me. That way I feel i would be giving them a balanced viewpoint. 

Hopefully they will contact me this evening. 7.30 pm now. 

¹⁶ Not all who have the heavenly hope are part of “the faithful and discreet slave.”   

(From the same 2016 Watchtower as quoted above by Kosonen) 

Who has the right to say this ?  Who has the right to put that in print ?  Note is does not say 'those that might think they have the heavenly hope'. It actually says  Not all who have the heavenly hope ... 

The GB of the JW org approve of this being written and used at meetings of JW's. So the GB themselves are judging the other MEMBERS OF THE BODY OF CHRIST'S BRIDE. The GB are judging those of the 144,000 chosen ones. 

Has God or Jesus Christ given the GB the right to do the judging ?  I would not think so. 

53 minutes ago, Anna said:

The problem with that reasoning is that what has to happen for time to tell? Another child is molested? Do we "sacrifice" another child so when that happens we then know for 'sure' this person is a danger and needs to be constrained in a more effective way? (i.e. prison and counseling etc.).

In cases of child sexual molestation, unlike other judicial cases (adultery, fornication etc.)  the congregation will be informed according to the new guidelines:

par. 11. If it is determined that one guilty of child sexual abuse is repentant and will remain in the congregation, restrictions are imposed on the individual’s congregation activities. The individual will be specifically admonished by the elders not to be alone in the company of children, not to cultivate friendships with children, or display any affection for children. In addition, elders will inform parents of minors within the congregation of the need to monitor their children’s interaction with the individual.

https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/legal-resources/information/packet-jw-scripturally-based-position-child-protection/

 

elders will inform parents of minors within the congregation of the need to monitor their children’s interaction with the individual. 

That is not the same as informing the whole congregation. If Elders only inform the parents that have children. 

And this does not help parents outside the congregation to protect their children. 

" If it is determined that one guilty of child sexual abuse ..."  If it is thus determined then I hope the Elders report it to the police so that the outside community can be protected too. 

1 hour ago, Outta Here said:

It's not about the issue around who is on what side or the other.

It's primarily about the safety of children and the failure of adults, whoever they are, failing in their responsibility to ensure that safety. And it's also about the moral responsibility of those both inside and outside of organisations who cover up detailed allegations out of cowardice and misplaced loyalties.

These responsibilities are not removed by the opinions of others.

So you are condemning the ELDERS of JW org then ? Thanks I agree with you. 

6 hours ago, Outta Here said:

This is a quote from the original poster who subsequently asks for the opinion of others.. The opinion of others can only be Yes, No, or Maybe. As this is a UK issue, there is a moral, not legal duty, for an informed third party to report such matters to a suitable authority. In view of the intimate knowledge this alleger claims to have,  the option was suggested that they discuss the matter anonymously with Childline on a Freephone number 0800 1111.

What is particularly odious about the whole exchange is that the party in question is vociferously complaining and making allegations about others who, in their opinion, "cover up" such cases.

Consider:

• An allegation has been made.The accuser has given their opinion as above.
• Others have expressed their varied opinions. 
• An option that would report the matter to an suitable authority, anonymously, has been given.
• Yet the alleger continues to dither, continues to accuse others of the same moral hypocrisy. 
• The alleged potential for further harm remains.

This person, regardless of status, is appearing to behave like an active part of the problem they are continually complaining about. Why is there even a discussion on the matter?

I really love it all. Those of you who are joining in @Anna by turning attention away from this TOPIC. 

Very clever you think ? But this topic is about the RECLAIMED VOICES letter........ And  Oh how often I get accused of going off topic. 

This topic is just one tiny piece of evidence that the JW Org hides pedophiles in it.  But it seems most of you do not care. Your own lives are not affected so you don't care. So you choose to take aim at me, so be it, my shoulders are wide enough to handle it all. 

I am not stupid and i do realise your purposes for trying to get me to put myself in the line of trouble. Remember that I LEFT the JW Org, I wasn't disfellowshipped. I was one jump ahead of them.  And i know they would just love to have a reason to call me an Apostate, to accuse me of slander, and to use me as a bad example of one who left the Org. It isn't going to happen, sorry to disappoint you all.  

11 hours ago, Anna said:

You have absolutely no idea how this works in the real world do you? Having 20 years worth of child abuse accusations is of absolutely no use to the authorities unless the survivor/victim makes a report to them first. When a report is made to the authorities  by survivor/victim it is taken to court and the courts ask for any reports made, then the reports are handed over.

You seem to be contradicting yourself here then. 

If the authorities cannot act on accusations without the victim making a report first, then why are you trying to tell me to go the the Police? I don't even know who the victim is. So if I made an accusation against the young man or gave a report of such, it would be of no use it seems because you say that the authorities could not act on it anyway. Where is you logic in all ths ?  

However my point is, that if all information was handed over to such authorities, they could sift through all the information and probably find a quantity of accusations against some of the individuals accused. If for instance they found 5 accusations against one person, over a period of three years. that would be grounds enough to bring that person in for questioning. Then also they could contact  the victims that would also be named in those reports and ask if they wished to give evidence and / or take court action against the accused. 

All action and information of that type, if the names of victims and accused were known to the authorities, could make the world a slightly 'safer' place to live in. 

4 minutes ago, Anna said:

One more thing on that Srecko; the lawyer Zalkin has hundreds of files (in his words) from WT in his office, that he is not allowed to show to anyone by law. So WT have given him many more documents, more than he needed.

But the GB and / or their legal dept' still have 20 years worth of info' about Child Abuse accusations.  Info which they will not willingly give to the authorities. 

So what happened to the scripture about, 'if you are conscripted to walk one mile, then walk two miles' ? In other words, give much more than you are asked for.  I said it so many times but you and others will not listen. It is not about the legal obligation, it is about doing what is right in the eyes of GOD. 

If the apostle Paul made it sooo clear about a man having sex with his father's wife, then how much more so about a man having sex with a very young child. That is why you need the TRUE Anointed running the Organisation, not a fake GB. 

@Anna you have been well trained (brain washed) by the JW org.  I do hope nothing of these sorts ever happens to you or your family. 

Yes I'm sure you would tell my local elders if i gave you their phone numbers, tell them to destroy evidence that is. 

i didn't find that piece of paper with the details on, maybe I destroyed it.  I honestly cannot remember the man's name, so now i have no info at all. Oh well if the Elders can destroy evidence and still think they have peace with God ...... 

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

If I’m not mistaken, we have been talking about how wrong, Bulter, Witness, Srecko are in the perception of the GB and what is written in scripture that they themselves follow.

It’s unfortunate your claims don’t meet Bible standards and never will. Using scripture properly is the foremost given argument made. This is why the Watchtower makes all possible changes to keep the spirit of the original text alive.

What have you offered, but strife? If you willing to argue interpretation, then let’s do it. Just keep your meaningless opinions out.

 

You are mistaken Kid... TOPIC is how the GB praise themselves and deceive on a Global level. 

Can't you keep on topic Kid ? 

8 minutes ago, Anna said:

 

Let’s put a few things into perspective:

1) A survivor of a sexual attack (JW or Non JW) is NEVER obligated to report the assault to the Police. Never.

2). A JW survivor of a sexual attack (if perpetrator is JW) is scripturally obligated to report this to the Elders in the same way that someone finding out about adultery is scripturally obligated to tell the elders so the wicked man can be removed:  1 Corinthians 5:9-12. And vs 5 “you must hand such a man over to Satan” and (Deutoronomy 17:7) “you must remove what is bad from your midst”. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that if wrongdoing in a congregation was covered up, then Jehovah would remove his spirit from that congregation. A congregation must be kept morally clean.

3) If the law of the land does not obligate second parties to inform the Police, then the reporting can be left to the first party.

4) If the law of the land obligates second parties (or anyone who learns of merely an allegation) to report to the police, then they will and must report to the police. (John Butler!)

With this information, please use your intelligence to figure out the various scenarios possible in the case of child sexual molestation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is so funny to see you hide behind the law of the land when it suits you. 

I'll ask you again, are the ELDERS that JW's presume are in their place chosen by God's Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ, not obligated SPIRITUALLY to protect those inside and outside the JW org ? 

I'm sure there must be scriptures to tell us that Elders are obligated in their service to GOD, to hand such ones over to the superior authorities. 

And for you to compare JW to non JW is quite strange. JW's are 'supposed' to be serving God not men. 

Therefore their obligation is totally different and instructions come from God's word not men's. 

As far as I am aware the law here in the UK does not compel me to report it. As I've mentioned before the new laws I've read about seem to be concerning people in 'professional' positions, such as teachers and social workers. 

 Quote @Anna  "....you just want the congregation to be informed to protect the children in that congregation. "

I don't think it is possible to instruct the Elders that you want the congregation to be informed.... As far as I am aware the Elders DO NOT INFORM the congregation that there is a Pedophile within it. They certainly would not name the Pedophile. 

And it seems you are advising the idea of hiding a Pedophile within the JW Org, which is one of the things I've been saying from square one.  By not informing the police it would be hiding that Pedophile in that congregation. It would also be protecting a criminal. 

Quite strange really as this is what you are accusing me of, failing in my duty to report it.  But in this 'hypothetical situation' he would have first hand evidence, therefore be more entitled to report it, and more morally duty bound to do so. 

But also, are you saying that the Elders are not bound by scripture / service to God, to report it to the police, even if there is no 'law' of the land to do so ? Are you suggesting that those men (Elders) who, you would say, are chosen by God or Jesus Christ, through Holy Spirit,  yet are not bound to care for the safety of people inside and outside the JW Org ? Is there not obligation for such ones to care for widows and orphans, and little children within and outside the Org if it is possible for them to do so. 

I can clearly see that @Anna is doing her very best to go OFF TOPIC. 

She sees me as an easy target, which she thinks will distract people from the EARTHWIDE CHILD ABUSE within the JW ORGANISATION.

She also tries to pretend that it is all about ABUSE IN THE PAST. Not true of course as many recent cases seem to be coming to light. 

And those victims from the past 50 years are still suffering. It's a lifetime thing, it does not go away. 

Does anyone have a follow up on the English translation of the BLUE LETTERS topic ? 

It might just add a bit more fuel to the fire  

By the way Anna it seems to have been proven that Elders deliberately destroy 'notes' / paperwork about Child Abuse accusations, so that when Police ask for the evidence it's 'no longer available'. So I would not go and warn the elders anyway. Why would i want to give them chance to destroy evidence ?  If I did take any action it would be to go directly to the Police, but it is doubtful that I will.  

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Good analogy. Now place it in the proper context which will refute your claim. The GB are drawn by scripture. If you refute the GB for the following of scripture then that is far worse in your behalf. Every Christian fellow in the body of Christ obeys Gods commandments as instructed by Christ. Jesus had someone above him, just like the apostles had Jesus above them. Where in scripture does it relate about leaders that you seem to have a problem with?

 

Proper context from who's viewpoint Kid ? 

Once again you place the GB on high. And it was once the belief that ALL ANOINTED WERE THE FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE.

So tell me what scriptures suddenly told your GB that the rest of the ANOINTED are now less important than the GB ? 

If you rely on your GB and do not rely on God's word and prayer to God through Jesus Christ, then you are in fact SERVING YOUR GB. 

Quote : Every Christian fellow in the body of Christ obeys God's commandments as instructed by Christ.' 

So where in the Bible does Christ tell anyone to serve the GB of JW Org ? 

The main issue here is that the GB of JW Org have proved themselves to be the WICKED SLAVE CLASS so should not be served by anyone. 

1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

I’m afraid you continue in a path of destruction. For one, and the most important mistake is your assertion the GB disfellowship. Perhaps reacquainting yourself with the Bible and once again read the Proverbs it will become clear what Matthew was talking about.

Where in scripture have you found the JWorg or the GB wrote the Bible.

1 Corinthians 5:1-13 ESV

It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you. For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing. When you are assembled in the name of the Lord Jesus and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord…

In some Bible translations they are blunter like “throw that evil person out!” or

Expel the Immoral Brother!

5     It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father’s wife. ² And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? ³ Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present.

Meantime, whoever taught you scripture originally, I’m afraid that person didn’t do a good job. For that, I do apologize. Perhaps it’s too late since you’ve hardened your heart and have drawn blind through your personal rage, but those that continue in the body of Christ understand.

 

You do say some stupid things Kid. I never once said the GB or JW Org wrote the Bible. BUT they did translate it to suit their own use, and they DO MISUSE SCRIPTURE that was meant for our instruction, guidance and protection.

The GB make up rules for disfellowshipping. They do not only use the instruction from the scriptures, such as you have quoted above, but the GB add their own interpretations to it. If they in fact used the principal from the instruction as mentioned above, then there would be far fewer pedophiles in the JW org.... Each one that was found would be removed, handed over to the local authorities/police, and not hidden in the Org. 

One thing you seem to have overlooked though is this is an Anointed man (Paul ) talking to other Anointed men. This brings us back to the perfection of the Anointed that I mentioned earlier. It also confirms to me that the Bible is written for the Anointed not for the Earthly class. The TRUE Anointed would know how to use the scriptures properly. 

Now in the JW congregations the Elders and Circuit Overseers or equivalent are mostly not of the Anointed, and therefore are not qualified to do the judging. And when it is a crime that has been committed then it becomes a legal matter not a spiritual one. Hence it should be immediately handed over to the legal authorities, 'that stand in place by God Himself, to do God's will in dealing with such matters, as mentioned in God's written word.

As for those 'in the body of Christ', they are the TRUE ANOINTED, NOT THE GB of JW Org. 

4 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

If someone commits a sin, whose fault is that. Did the GB write scripture? Let's focus on realism, not just on an untethered opinion.

Billy you wouldn't know truth if it punched you on the nose. You worship the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses and you serve that GB and the JW Org.

You do not serve Almighty God or Jesus Christ. 

When you mention committing sin, who do you think the 'sin is committed against ? 

The JW Org disfellowships people for disobeying the GB rules and / or speaking truth which disagrees with the teachings of the Org. 

The JW Org disfellowships people for complaining about being sexually abused by Elders or others in that Org. 

The JW Org uses the excuse of 'Causing a division within the congregation' when no division has been caused.

You know these things as well as i know them, but you chose to both hide them and ignore them. 

So be it. But remember sin can only be committed against GOD, not against an organisation. 

The JW Org disfellowships people for disobeying the rules of an Organisation, not for sinning against God.  

THEN the GB and it's Org pretend that a disfelowshipped person cannot serve God through Jesus Christ. How wrong your GB and Org are. 

And this is still totally on topic as I'm showing how the GB praise themselves and deceive the congregation. But of course the GB are deceiving themselves, they are not close to reality, not close to the whole congregation and not close to God or Christ.