JOHN BUTLER

@Anna Quote : Bit of a bummer for the children if the accused molests again. I don't get you John, I really don't.... All well and good but you are still part of that Organisation that still continues to hide Pedophiles in it's ranks. I don't get you Anna, I really don't .............. As as for me not even trying. I've emailed people and they do not reply. Even my own biological brother, who is an Elder in our home town, has stopped contact with me. Yet he agreed with my stand at first. But of course you want me to put myself on the line, to be accused of slander, by Elders of an organisation that i know to be dishonest anyway. I think the Elders would just love to have that to pin on me. Then they could tell the congregation that i am an apostate, and give everyone, what they would consider, a genuine reason, for not talking to me. I have actually been looking for the piece of paper that I wrote all the details on, but i can't find it. I was talking to a teacher a week ago and she told me that new laws had been brought in here in the UK, regarding reporting abuse. However when I looked into the 'new laws' I think it is for people in jobs working with children, teachers, social workers, etc, so not for the general public. But I can see how you would rather focus on blaming me, rather than be concerned that this Child Abuse is Earthwide in the Organisation which you are part of. If you were really concerned you would think it more than 'a bit of a bummer' for all the victims Earthwide, those in the past and those now.

You really don't want to listen do you. The Elders know about the situation. The Elders have the names of both parties concerned. I don't have the name of the victim. Now if what you say is true, the Elders would have already informed the Police right ? No, i don't think so. And i cannot talk to the accused or the Elders as I have left the org and not one of the 120 / 130 people will talk to me. Now i haven't told people not to talk to me, so it's their fault if I cannot warn them. I left the Org so that i could warn people, but those congregants have chosen of their own free will (because of fear of punishment) not to talk to me. So i no longer feel responsible. Nearly 12 pm here in England, so good night to you.

I'm well focussed thanks. Just gave you two points that prove the GB praise themselves and deceive the congregants. That is totally on topic. And it is true that the GB have put themselves and the JW org in place of Jesus Christ. The GB pretend that by disfellowshipping someone it stops a person serving God. Doesn't that prove that the GB think they are higher than Jesus Christ, as it is through Christ we serve God not through the GB or the JW org.

@BillyTheKid46 Quote : This is why the GB adheres to scripture without confusing its understanding like many here. That is a good laugh ! Thanks Kid. Like the two witness rule used in Child Abuse cases, but not used in Fornication accusations. And the fact that a person has to agree to 'serve' the Org when they get baptised. Kid you are completely blind.

Part of that document says that Children are not separated from their parents. Evidence given in at least one court case says that an Elder sexually assaulted a young girl when the Elder took the girl on the ministry in his pick up truck. This seemed to have happened more than once. In another case a girl said she was sexually assaulted when an Elder was giving her a bible study. In both cases the Elder must have been alone with a child. Your choice if you believe these victims or not. As you mention above you would have that document, but what if the Elders called your child or you a LIAR ? Do you believe these victims or do you think they are all guided by Satan to tell lies against the GB and the ORG. You have to make a choice what you believe, then you have to stand by your choice of belief. That is what I did.

Very interesting. test your faith or offer a bribe. But not mine to judge, I'm a natural coward.

Oh what massive lies the GB and their legal departments tell. What they put in print does not match up with what they do in practice. Unless you want to believe that all the VICTIMS tell lies. But then you probably don't want the truth on this matter. Get it in your head, the GB didn't care. The victims were just collateral damage, expendable. The GB care now of course because the truth is made known and the GB and the JW org is suffering financially and losing face.. But what is most important is that God and His son have been brought low and made objects of insult.

I will set some time aside to look deeper into all this. My concentration level is not good, but i will make time to follow the links and research. Thank you.

I don't believe in life being predestined, preplanned, but some scriptures seem to show otherwise. Or is interpretation wrong ? Pauls says at Ephesians 1 3 Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ,b4 as he chose us to be in union with him before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and unblemished before him in love. 5 For he foreordained us to be adopted as his own sons through Jesus Christ, according to his good pleasure and will, ... Foreordained = (of God or fate) appoint or decree (something) beforehand. Now is this correct translation of the scripture or not ? Did God know Adam would sin ? Did God have plans for a 'heavenly class ' 144,000 anyway ? My brain can only take in so much at once and although i would have read this a hundred times or more I've only just began to think on this particular scripture. But it made me think on another scripture. Romans 9 v 10 through 13. Not only then but also when Re·bekʹah conceived twins from the one man, Isaac our forefather; 11 for when they had not yet been born and had not practiced anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose respecting the choosing might continue dependent, not on works, but on the One who calls,12 it was said to her: “The older will be the slave of the younger.” 13 Just as it is written: “I loved Jacob, but Eʹsau I hated.” ( As a note here I could not find this scripture by searching in JW Org but found it immediately by putting it as a question into google. Google showed BibleHub and there it is. ) God chose Jacob before Jacob was even born. Why ? How ? Predestination ? Jacob's life pre-planned by God ? There are probably more examples but i think these two serve the purpose. Does God have plans for all of us or only a chosen few ?

Luke 10 v 21 In that very hour he became overjoyed in the holy spirit and said: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have carefully hidden these things from wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. Yes, O Father, because this is the way you approved. This seems to show that 'higher education' was not needed to learn, understand and teach, the truth from God, at that time. It seems to be a well know thing within the JW Org and by people outside of same, that JW's are 'told' not to aim for higher education. I say told, although some will say strongly advised, with a possible caution of being disfellowshipped. Now I've noticed on here recently that deep conversation about many things has been and is taking place. Politics earthwide. religious beliefs earthwide and the latest thing seems to be Evolution (from a very deep standpoint ). ( These things were never taught to me at school. ) I left school at 15 years old, as soon as I was able, for reasons previously mentioned. Here in UK now teenagers have to remain in education until they are 18. The three years from 15 to 18 seem to me to be almost 'higher education', but compulsory. How much they learn at school now I've no idea. My feelings are, and yes ok i cannot put proof to these feelings, but, my feelings are, that all forms of higher education are advised against by the GB and the JW Org. Some of you may have some proof of this in writing. So, where does this leave JW's ? If a young person leaves school to go into full time 'service' ministry, they do not get a higher education. Their 'basic' education may have been just that, very basic. They are then not 'qualified' to talk to others on a higher education level, and this might even be to the point of not understanding such things as are being discussed on here lately. ( Much of what is being discussed leaves me miles behind. I'm a very simple person. Plus at 69 I forget more than i learn. Yes I do write lots of notes and have books for recording different things, but the mind boggles. ) With respect for those I knew and loved in the past, within my ex congregation, many of them were 'simple country folk'. And I think Tom said about not having the time or inclination to do research online or or otherwise. So let us go back to the scripture at the top. So many questions. Does God reveal more to those of a lesser education ? Is higher education and greater knowledge a disadvantage when wanting to serve God properly? Or is it that those of higher education are too stubborn to learn God's way ? Too proud maybe ? There are many things that the Bible doesn't tell us. is that deliberate ? Does God want to keep it simple for us ? So, should we pursue more knowledge about worldly things ? A problem may occur when talking to others about God, in that they may have more knowledge on a certain subject than we do and therefore believe something different. Should we then educate ourselves to their level on the same subject, or just pass them by ? Bearing in mind the scripture at the top of this page. There has to be a balance of course. But my feelings are that the GB would like JW's to be educated only by the Watchtower studies and by the 'workbook' evening meeting studies. And of course by personal Bible reading. But do JW's do as they are told in this respect or do a lot of them 'educate themselves', or take further education elsewhere ?

@Witness Unfortunately you seem to be treating Pearl as a god I don't see quotes from anyone else here. Also your quote from (What Does the Bible Really Teach? p. 184). I could not find it there in the book. And in what way are the true Anointed (not the GB) working to serve God ? How are the true Anointed 'getting together' to form a 'body of people' here on Earth ? Surely there is a need for the true Anointed to be clearly seen and for them to work together ? Zechariah 8 v 23. 23 “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.” So where are all these spiritual Jews ? I would have thought they would have a joint website /page of some sort. That seems to be the way of getting a message out to all people. I cannot just take the word of one person, i need to see a 'movement of people' with proof that they are serving God properly.

Yet they found it quite alright to bribe government officials in Mexico to get a card like the victims were required in Malawi. Tell us more about this please

Oh dear I think I've hit a nerve of yours. But you were saying about my pointless criticism so I thought I'd show you a criticism that had complete truth in it.

Are you still that far behind, catch up. We finished that part of the discussion hours ago. you can use that word if it so please you. Doesn't make it right .

Um, offended I don't think so. I find you amusing actually. I'm happy that you read my posts though. And this is just a forum, it is not guided by Holy Spirit, so letting off steam is ok. Do tell me though how my criticism of the GB and it's JW org concerning Child Abuse has failed ? I think it is the GB that have failed to protect the congregation Earthwide. As for discussion, we don't ask you to take part in it. If you find it pointless then please don't bother us again.

I won't be pathetic enough (unlike some) to start calling you names or retaliate to your last comment. The scripture i quoted still stands. It is from God's word and accordingly does not appear in it. In my opinion the scriptures were written only for the Anointed to FULLY understand. Yes of course we of the earthly class can understand much of it, but not all and not fully. The TRUE Anointed obviously have a much closer relationship with God and with Jesus Christ. Hence the scripture 'ten men clinging to the skirt of a Jew', spiritual Jew of course. The Anointed But the whole point in question is, are the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses 'perfect' ? That is, perfect in the way that Jesus meant in that scripture. And the answer has to be NO. As can be seen by their actions and words. You may say it's not my place to judge, but we have to judge to know whom we should follow. I think that brings us back on topic. The GB pretending to be things they are not. 1. They cannot be Anointed 2. They cannot be the Faithful and discreet slave.

That is a very good and well balanced viewpoint. Well done to you. Maybe i wish i had done that, but i left the organisation because of the massive amount of child Abuse within it. My conscience would not let me stay in, but it does make it difficult as i am now completely shunned by everyone, so i cannot help anyone, not even in a practical way.

Quote : " Any case I found a new tit-bit. On the JW app is says that the beast with the seven heads has a different kind of rulership than the Eighth king. Small difference but significant. " Wow, and of course you will believe anything the GB tells you, even though they have a massive history of GETTING THINGS WRONG.

The things you say are right, but may Witnesses are too frightened to say them. There are many witnesses leaving and many very young children being counted as Witnesses just to make the numbers up. I have seen it in their own words that they count the number of active Witnesses by the number of 'Report slips' put in each month. And as I've said 3 year old children 'put in' report slips. I think many witnesses are not happy in the JW Org, but it has become their way of life and that is where all their friends are, so they are frightened to leave. Other braver ones are leaving.

Depends what exactly you mean by a reliable source. Only God's word is a reliable source, and then only if translated properly.

@JW Insider In my opinion that is the reason the Tuesday evening group study was stopped. Because bros and sis were talking amongst themselves about the things that the GB were doing wrong. The GB nor the elders had the control over the group studies because after the study the people there would have tea and cake etc, and sit down and chat. The Elders did not have control over the conversations, the questions asked, the details given. Yes there was one elder in each group but he could not control the whole group. The GB didn't like that around 20 or more congregants could have group discussions which the GB did not control. I believe there were similar problems in Bethels where bros would gather together for personal group studies without the control of an elder. The GB are frightened, that much is obvious.

Of course you are aware that the word accordingly was put in by the GB or writing dept of W/t are't you ? Hence i gave you the King James version also. The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek is this :- "You shall be therefore you perfect as the Father of you the heavenly perfect is." That is directly from the Greek hence seems strange BUT no mention of the word ACCORDINGLY. The GB make it up as they go along. And this perfection is expected of the Anointed not of the earthly class.

Apostasy (/əˈpɒstəsi/; Greek: ἀποστασία apostasia, "a defection or revolt") is the formal disaffiliation from, or abandonment or renunciation of a religion by a person. It can also be defined within the broader context of embracing an opinion contrary to one's previous beliefs. Apostasy is NOT taking a stand against the Bible, nor is it rebelling against God or Jesus Christ. Apostasy is turning away from a former religion. The disciples became apostates when they turned away from the Jewish way of serving God and turned to follow Jesus. Jesus was put to death because he was an apostate of the Jewish faith. Remember that Jesus was born as a Jew and raised as a Jew. Then remember how Jesus spoke to the Pharisees. The Jews saw that as apostasy. Just because you can copy and paste from Watchtower Library does not mean you know truth. By copy and paste of W/T library you prove that you do follow men, amd that you put your faith in those men.

Quote "as long as we respect the doctrines promoted by the the Governing Body. " Worship of the Governing Body then ? The Governing Body would be respected for the number of years they have spent in Bible study and teaching and therefore "worthy of double honor." I wonder how many years the Pope has spent in Bible study ? Does that make him worthy of double honour then ? The GB had written in the Revelation Book that it might not be true. And the GB does keep changing the meanings of scripture to suit themselves. 'Superior authorities', comes to mind. 'This Generation' also comes to mind, so don't pretend that I'm wrong in making this statement. People think that I'm full of hate, wrong, I'm full of disappointment. Why ? Because i used to 'respect the doctrines promoted by the Governing Body', and now I see how much of my life I have wasted believing in their lies. There are rules in the JW Org, basically keep your mouth shut unless you are praising the GB and the Org. What that does is create unrest and distrust. Relate it to racism. Here in the UK people are not allowed to express their feelings about 'other races'. What that does is cause some people to boil up inside because they cannot let their feelings be known. There is no release valve. This is similar in the JW org, and creates similar results. People become apostate because they have not been allowed to ask questions or given permission to express themselves. People leave the JW Org because they feel dominated. Quote "In other words, every single doctrine we have, need not be expressed as an unchangeable dogma." No maybe not, but if a congregant were to disagree with GB doctrine, they would be strongly reproved and watched, then if they continued to disagree they would be disfellowshipped.

Interesting. It was a lot to read through so I didn't click on the links. But surely there has to be a gathering of the 'Spiritual Jews' ? When we will we see such a gathering ? I'm convinced there has to be an organisation here on this Earth.