JOHN BUTLER

4 minutes ago, Anna said:

I believe the victims, and yes, this did happen years ago.

 

This sounds like the Candace Conti case,, that happened in the 80's

This also happened in the 80's

You live and learn. I can assure you this no longer happens. What has been happening in recent years is exactly as is written in the document, with the addition that now the child molester is made known to parents.

Why don't you test out the safe guarding policy yourself, instead of claiming that it is not being followed? Why don't you tell the elders of the accusation you have learned of? 

5. When elders learn of an accusation of child abuse, they immediately consult with the branch
office of Jehovah’s Witnesses to ensure compliance with child abuse reporting laws. (Romans 13:1)
Even if the elders have no legal duty to report an accusation to the authorities, the branch office of Jehovah’s
Witnesses will instruct the elders to report the matter if a minor is still in danger of abuse or
there is some other valid reason. Elders also ensure that the victim’s parents are informed of an accusation
of child abuse. If the alleged abuser is one of the victim’s parents, the elders will inform the
other parent

 

You really don't want to listen do you.

The Elders know about the situation. The Elders have the names of both parties concerned. I don't have the name of the victim.

Now if what you say is true, the Elders would have already informed the Police right ?  No, i don't think so. 

And i cannot talk to the accused or the Elders as I have left the org and not one of the 120 / 130 people will talk to me. 

Now i haven't told people not to talk to me, so it's their fault if I cannot warn them. I left the Org so that i could warn people, but those congregants have chosen of their own free will (because of fear of punishment) not to talk to me. So i no longer feel responsible. 

Nearly 12 pm here in England, so good night to you. 

3 minutes ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Broken record, try focusing on this post. The blindness is on the hatred you harbor toward the GB. You're allowed having an opinion regardless if it's not good.

 

I'm well focussed thanks. Just gave you two points that prove the GB praise themselves and deceive the congregants. 

That is totally on topic. And it is true that the GB have put themselves and the JW org in place of Jesus Christ.

The GB pretend that by disfellowshipping someone it stops a person serving God. Doesn't that prove that the GB think they are higher than Jesus Christ, as it is through Christ we serve God not through the GB or the JW org. 

@BillyTheKid46 Quote : This is why the GB adheres to scripture without confusing its understanding like many here.

That is a good laugh ! Thanks Kid.

Like the two witness rule used in Child Abuse cases, but not used in Fornication accusations.  

And the fact that a person has to agree to 'serve' the Org when they get baptised. 

Kid you are completely blind. 

9 minutes ago, Anna said:

Well it's for everybody to see and check for themselves isn't it? I mean If I was a mother and my child told me someone from the congregation molested them, and I would go to the elders, I would expect things to go according to that "safeguarding policy". And if it didn't, I have that document to point to don't I?

Part of that document says that Children are not separated from their parents. 

Evidence given in at least one court case says that an Elder sexually assaulted a young girl when the Elder took the girl on the ministry in his pick up truck. This seemed to have happened more than once. 

In another case a  girl said she was sexually assaulted when an Elder was giving her a bible study. 

In both cases the Elder must have been alone with a child.  Your choice if you believe these victims or not. 

As you mention above you would have that document, but what if the Elders called your child or you a LIAR ?

Do you believe these victims or do you think they are all guided by Satan to tell lies against the GB and the ORG. 

You have to make a choice what you believe, then you have to stand by your choice of belief. That is what I did. 

40 minutes ago, Anna said:

Lots abut it here:

http://dismythed.blogspot.com/2016/06/Malawi-Mexico.html

 

Very interesting. test your faith or offer a bribe. But not mine to judge, I'm a natural coward. 

4 minutes ago, Anna said:

What about:

https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/legal-resources/information/packet-jw-scripturally-based-position-child-protection/

Isn't that clear enough?

Oh what massive lies the GB and their legal departments tell.

What they put in print does not match up with what they do in practice. 

Unless you want to believe that all the VICTIMS tell lies. 

But then you probably don't want the truth on this matter. 

Get it in your head, the GB didn't care. The victims were just collateral damage, expendable. 

The GB care now of course because the truth is made known and the GB and the JW org is suffering financially and losing face.. 

But what is most important is that God and His son have been brought low and made objects of insult. 
 

I will set some time aside to look deeper into all this. My concentration level is not good, but i will make time to follow the links and research. Thank you. 

I don't believe in life being predestined, preplanned, but some scriptures seem to show otherwise. Or is interpretation wrong ?

Pauls says at Ephesians 1  ³  Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ,b⁴  as he chose us to be in union with him before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and unblemished before him in love. ⁵  For he foreordained us to be adopted as his own sons through Jesus Christ, according to his good pleasure and will, ... 

 Foreordained = (of God or fate) appoint or decree (something) beforehand. 

Now is this correct translation of the scripture or not ? Did God know Adam would sin ? Did God have plans for a 'heavenly class ' 144,000 anyway ?

My brain can only take in so much at once and although i would have read this a hundred times or more I've only just began to think on this particular scripture. But it made me think on another scripture. 

Romans 9 v 10 through 13. 

Not only then but also when Re·bekʹah conceived twins from the one man, Isaac our forefather; ¹¹  for when they had not yet been born and had not practiced anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose respecting the choosing might continue dependent, not on works, but on the One who calls,¹²  it was said to her: “The older will be the slave of the younger.” ¹³  Just as it is written: “I loved Jacob, but Eʹsau I hated.”

( As a note here I could not find this scripture by searching in JW Org but found it immediately by putting it as a question into google. Google showed BibleHub and there it is. )

God chose Jacob before Jacob was even born. Why ? How ? Predestination ? Jacob's life pre-planned by God ? 

There are probably more examples but i think these two serve the purpose. Does God have plans for all of us or only a chosen few ? 

^{Luke 10 v 21}  In that very hour he became overjoyed in the holy spirit and said: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have carefully hidden these things from wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. Yes, O Father, because this is the way you approved.

This seems to show that 'higher education' was not needed to learn, understand and teach, the truth from God, at that time. 

It seems to be a well know thing within the JW Org and by people outside of same, that JW's are 'told' not to aim for higher education. I say told, although some will say strongly advised, with a possible caution of being disfellowshipped. 

Now I've noticed on here recently that deep conversation about many things has been and is taking place. Politics earthwide. religious beliefs earthwide and the latest thing seems to be Evolution (from a very deep standpoint ). ( These things were never taught to me at school. )

I left school at 15 years old, as soon as I was able, for reasons previously mentioned. Here in UK now teenagers have to remain in education until they are 18. The three years from 15 to 18 seem to me to be almost 'higher education', but compulsory.  How much they learn at school now I've no idea. 

My feelings are, and yes ok i cannot put proof to these feelings, but, my feelings are, that all forms of higher education are advised against by the GB and the JW Org. Some of you may have some proof of this in writing. So, where does this leave JW's ?

If a young person leaves school to go into full time 'service' ministry, they do not get a higher education. Their 'basic' education may have been just that, very basic. They are then not 'qualified' to talk to others on a higher education level, and this might even be to the point of not understanding such things as are being discussed on here lately. 

( Much of what is being discussed leaves me miles behind. I'm a very simple person. Plus at 69 I forget more than i learn. Yes I do write lots of notes and have books for recording different things, but the mind boggles. )

With respect for those I knew and loved in the past, within my ex congregation, many of them were 'simple country folk'. And I think Tom said about not having the time or inclination to do research online or or otherwise. So let us go back to the scripture at the top. 

So many questions. Does God reveal more to those of a lesser education ?  Is higher education and greater knowledge a disadvantage when wanting to serve God properly?

Or is it that those of higher education are too stubborn to learn God's way ?  Too proud maybe ?   

There are many things that the Bible doesn't tell us. is that deliberate ? Does God want to keep it simple for us ? So, should we pursue more knowledge about worldly things ? 

A problem may occur when talking to others about God, in that they may have more knowledge on a certain subject than we do and therefore believe something different. Should we then educate ourselves to their level on the same subject, or just pass them by ?  Bearing in mind the scripture at the top of this page. 

There has to be a balance of course. But my feelings are that the GB would like JW's to be educated only by the Watchtower studies and by the 'workbook' evening meeting studies. And of course by personal Bible reading.   But do JW's do as they are told in this respect or do a lot of them 'educate themselves', or take further education elsewhere ? 

@Witness Unfortunately you seem to be treating Pearl as a god I don't see quotes from anyone else here.

Also your quote from  (What Does the Bible Really Teach? p. 184). I could not find it there in the book.

And in what way are the true Anointed (not the GB) working to serve God ? 

How are the true Anointed 'getting together' to form a 'body of people' here on Earth ?

Surely there is a need for the true Anointed to be clearly seen and for them to work together ? 

Zechariah 8 v 23.

²³  “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.”

So where are all these spiritual Jews ? 

I would have thought they would have a joint website /page of some sort.  That seems to be the way of getting a message out to all people. 

I cannot just take the word of one person, i need to see a 'movement of people' with proof that they are serving God properly. 

54 minutes ago, FelixCA said:

Different topic. Stick to this one, or do a new post for it.

Oh dear I think I've hit a nerve of yours. But you were saying about my pointless criticism so I thought I'd show you a criticism that had complete truth in it. 

6 minutes ago, FelixCA said:

As for your argument about perfection. Consider the other definition that is associated with Christianity, not common usage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_perfection

https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/perfect-perfection/

 

Therefore, the word accordingly is an abstract that can be used as relative.

Are you still that far behind, catch up. We finished that part of the discussion hours ago. 

you can use that word if it so please you. Doesn't make it right .

11 minutes ago, FelixCA said:

It seems something offended you. I have seen many of your other posts. I wouldn't retaliate either or be pathetic about it.

Um, offended I don't think so. I find you amusing actually. I'm happy that you read my posts though. 

And this is just a forum, it is not guided by Holy Spirit, so letting off steam is ok. 

Do tell me though how my criticism of the GB and it's JW org concerning Child Abuse has failed ?  I think it is the GB that have failed to protect the congregation Earthwide. 

As for discussion, we don't ask you to take part in it. If you find it pointless then please don't bother us again. 

42 minutes ago, FelixCA said:

Then you cannot appreciate what scripture is actually relating to us mortals.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_5:48

If you wish to bring in scriptural understanding with the old Greek Classic, versus the Koine Greek, if you have experience with linguistics, then, by all means, let’s discuss this matter through intellectual understanding. From the textus receptus, Latin Vulgate, or whatever codex you wish to use. Even the Westcott and Hort.  Since Srecko failed to reply on how his wisdom is above all others, then I can only stipulate this is your idea also.

 

Logic, as seen through the definition, brings in many afterthoughts. The word perfection is not intended as you describe it. If we do, it loses all credibility to what is intended through scripture. This is a fundamental flaw in understanding. We can only imitate perfection, not become it until after Armageddon.

 

 

To an extent, you and Srecko have become what the post is.

 

I won't be pathetic enough (unlike some) to start calling you names or retaliate to your last comment.

The scripture i quoted still stands. It is from God's word and  accordingly does not appear in it. 

In my opinion the scriptures were written only for the Anointed to FULLY understand. Yes of course we of the earthly class can understand much of it, but not all and not fully. 

The TRUE Anointed obviously have a much closer relationship with God and with Jesus Christ. 

Hence the scripture 'ten men clinging to the skirt of a Jew', spiritual Jew of course. The Anointed

But the whole point in question is, are the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses 'perfect' ? That is, perfect in the way that Jesus meant in that scripture. And the answer has to be NO. As can be seen by their actions and words.

You may say it's not my place to judge, but we have to judge to know whom we should follow. 

I think that brings us back on topic. The GB pretending to be things they are not.

1. They cannot be Anointed          2. They cannot be the Faithful and discreet slave. 

9 minutes ago, Jay Iza said:

Well, not against or pro the JW organization as we (my family) are JWs too, we have learnt to take a different approch to life and religion a more balanced view. We accept we have learnt a lot of great things in the organization but they are not 100% correct in everything and we wont let the organization rule our lifes by the man made rules. Saying that we follow Jehovah principals but other than that we wont slave ourselves down to everything the organization demands on their followers. 

The other balance approched we have taken is that we dont view the organization as the only way to be saved but more like the way to help eachother and find support during this system.

We keep to ourselves, we have learnt not to have too closed friends in the congregation because as soon as you do that they will start and try to run your lifes according to the organization rules. 

Now we have a much enjoyable life and we dont feel the pressure and guilt for not being able to comply with all the requirements from the organization and from the brothers in the cong as they dont see you as a very close friend or member of the cong.

It works for us...

That is a very good and well balanced viewpoint. Well done to you.

Maybe i wish i had done that, but i left the organisation because of the massive amount of child Abuse within it. 

My conscience would not let me stay in, but it does make it difficult as i am now completely shunned by everyone, so i cannot help anyone, not even in a practical way. 

Quote : " Any case I found a new tit-bit.  On the JW app is says that the beast with the seven heads has a different kind of rulership than the Eighth king. Small difference but significant. "

Wow, and of course you will believe anything the GB tells you, even though they have a massive history of GETTING THINGS WRONG. 

5 hours ago, Jay Iza said:

I speak for what our family feels as a JW.

RE Donations: we stopped donations for 3 main reasons,

1. Wasteful use of money in congregations having seen our congragation and many other congregations having 3 HD flat screen TVs upgraded also having a HD projector for broadcasting i reckon is a horrible way to misuse of funds.

2. Not making public knowledge of funds been used for child sex law suits.

3. At the end of each convention always making an announcement how much more funds are needed to cover all costs running the convention, having donated all funds to the organization prior, so.always running in red at the end of each convention.

Re preaching hours; i dont agreed thats how they should count how many active JWs are there as many would just put in any hours just to look good in front of the congregation.

I find it weird how there is always a total figures of active JWs what about having a total tally of active, inactive, disfellowshiped, i dont get why the need of just showing some figures but not others.

Thats one of the reasons we stopped looking at this figures they are so inaccurate that thereis no point of publishing it.

Anyways thats how we feel wrong or right there are many others that feels the same.... 🙄

The things you say are right, but may Witnesses are too frightened to say them. 

There are many witnesses leaving and many very young children being counted as Witnesses just to make the numbers up. 

I have seen it in their own words that they count the number of active Witnesses by the number of 'Report slips' put in each month.

And as I've said 3 year old children 'put in' report slips. 

I think many witnesses are not happy in the JW Org, but it has become their way of life and that is where all their friends are, so they are frightened to leave. Other braver ones are leaving. 

3 hours ago, Arauna said:

I think new Witnesses are afraid to do their own research until they have matured. The rate of maturity is different for everyone.  When one is raising a family and struggling to make ends meet one will not be pottering about everywhere searching for more knowledge - they can scarcely keep up with preparing for meetings and family studies.... and if they are elders - to prepare for their talks.

So in these circumstances it is easier to go to a reliable source where one need not take time to sift through garbage and propaganda to make a balanced decision. 

 

 

Depends what exactly you mean by a reliable source.

Only God's word is a reliable source, and then only if translated properly. 

@JW Insider In my opinion that is the reason the Tuesday evening group study was stopped. Because bros and sis were talking amongst themselves about the things that the GB were doing wrong. 

The GB nor the elders had the control over the group studies because after the study the people there would have tea and cake etc, and sit down and chat. The Elders did not have control over the conversations, the questions asked, the details given. Yes there was one elder in each group but he could not control the whole group. 

The GB didn't like that around 20 or more congregants could have group discussions which the GB did not control. 

I believe there were similar problems in Bethels where bros would gather together for personal group studies without the control of an elder. The GB are frightened, that much is obvious.   

4 hours ago, FelixCA said:

Then you would agree there is a need to comprehend what is before us. Especially when it relates to definitions of particular words.

 

 

This prevents us from thinking we can be perfect instead, try to imitate perfection by following in Jesus footsteps. Do you honestly believe you are perfect according to the word, perfection? Even if we comply with every instruction given by Jesus and the commandments given by Jah can we remove our sinful state?

This can be illustrated by the conduct here of a failure to meet Christ standards of perfection. Ephesians 4:22-32

This is why Jah continues to give us a chance to redeem ourselves from a sinful state. Meaning as imperfect humans. Romans 5:8

What is one of the prerequisites to maintain that appearance of sinless state, if not with obedience?

 

Of course you are aware that the word accordingly was put in by the GB or writing dept of W/t are't you ?

Hence i gave you the King James version also. 

The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek is this :-

"You shall be therefore you perfect as the Father of you the heavenly perfect is."

That is directly from the Greek hence seems strange BUT no mention of the word ACCORDINGLY.

The GB make it up as they go along. 

And this perfection is expected of the Anointed not of the earthly class. 

Apostasy (/əˈpɒstəsi/; Greek: ἀποστασία apostasia, "a defection or revolt") is the formal disaffiliation from, or abandonment or renunciation of a religion by a person. It can also be defined within the broader context of embracing an opinion contrary to one's previous beliefs.

Apostasy is NOT taking a stand against the Bible, nor is it rebelling against God or Jesus Christ. 

Apostasy is turning away from a former religion. The disciples became apostates when they turned away from the Jewish way of serving God and turned to follow Jesus. 

Jesus was put to death because he was an apostate of the Jewish faith. Remember that Jesus was born as a Jew and raised as a Jew. Then remember how Jesus spoke to the Pharisees. The Jews saw that as apostasy. 

Just because you can copy and paste from Watchtower Library does not mean you know truth. 

By copy and paste of W/T library you prove that you do follow men, amd that you put your faith in those men. 

6 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

i know this was to Srecko, but I was thinking the same thing. It's nice to have a unified message. And to answer the next part of your points, I think that this particular forum provides a answer, of sorts, to see the expected results of such an experiment.

It could be chaos, but need not be. All of us can have our own opinions as long as we respect the doctrines promoted by the the Governing Body. The Governing Body would be respected for the number of years they have spent in Bible study and teaching and therefore "worthy of double honor."

There are many ways to manage both personal opinions and respect the currently accepted doctrines held by the majority. One way is for all of us to try to remember to always make sure people know we are expressing our own personal opinion even if we personally have absolutely no doubt about the correctness of that opinion. Many people have already come on this forum in the last few years, presenting themselves as JWs, and all the while making sure predictions about end-time events they expected in the next few months. All of them will surely be just as wrong as everyone else has been for these last 2,000 years.

And if we are just exploring an opinion we should be clear that we are anxious for others to share any clarifying, supporting, or non-supporting evidence to add to the discussion.

The Governing Body should also be willing to express any current doctrine in terms of its probability according to the best evidence they have accepted, and if they are rejecting more evidence than they accept, they should explain their reasons for rejecting the majority of the known evidence. The Governing Body has already done this on several minor teachings, and I always find it refreshing. In other words, every single doctrine we have, need not be expressed as an unchangeable dogma. Everything can be expressed as a current belief based on the evidence we currently accept. There would NEVER be an embarrassment over the past, and the new level of open-mindedness would result in more input from persons who run across new evidence all over the world. 

Quote "as long as we respect the doctrines promoted by the the Governing Body. "

Worship of the Governing Body then ? 

The Governing Body would be respected for the number of years they have spent in Bible study and teaching and therefore "worthy of double honor."

I wonder how many years the Pope has spent in Bible study ? Does that make him worthy of double honour then ? 

The GB had written in the Revelation Book that it might not be true.  And the GB does keep changing the meanings of scripture to suit themselves. 'Superior authorities', comes to mind. 'This Generation' also comes to mind, so don't pretend that I'm wrong in making this statement. 

People think that I'm full of hate, wrong, I'm full of disappointment. Why ? Because i used to 'respect the doctrines promoted by the Governing Body', and now I see how much of my life I have wasted believing in their lies. 

There are rules in the JW Org, basically keep your mouth shut unless you are praising the GB and the Org.

What that does is create unrest and distrust. Relate it to racism. Here in the UK people are not allowed to express their feelings about 'other races'. What that does is cause some people to boil up inside because they cannot let their feelings be known. There is no release valve. 

This is similar in the JW org, and creates similar results. People become apostate because they have not been allowed to ask questions or given permission to express themselves. People leave the JW Org because they feel dominated. 

Quote "In other words, every single doctrine we have, need not be expressed as an unchangeable dogma."

No maybe not, but if a congregant were to disagree with GB doctrine, they would be strongly reproved and watched, then if they continued to disagree they would be disfellowshipped. 

Interesting. It was a lot to read through so I didn't click on the links. 

But surely there has to be a gathering of the 'Spiritual Jews' ?  When we will we see such a gathering ?

I'm convinced there has to be an organisation here on this Earth.  

Number of Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide

8,579,909

This number is the number of people that put in monthly reports for doing the 'ministry' work.

The problem with this is, that a lot of those 'people' are very young children that are forced by their parents to do that ministry, and the reports are put in by the parents. 

Children are basically forced to get baptised by their parents, especially if the father of the child is an Elder or Ministerial Servant.  This has been proven by many young adults that have left the JW Org as soon as they are of an age to leave home. 

Children as young as 3 years old 'put in reports' for ministry. Age is not written on the report slip so those counting the slips have no idea of how young these children are.  Somewhere on this forum there is proof of an elder giving a talk and in his talk he commends a 'sister' and her 3 year old child for the young child putting in such a report for ministry. 

The JW Org is allowing this to happen just to make up the numbers, because the number of adult 'witnesses' is falling dramatically. 

Donations to the JW Org are also falling dramatically too. Whereas once there were far more adults donating to the JW Org, now there are big families of maybe two parents and five children, but only one donation from that complete family. 

The horrific Child abuse scandal has made may adult witnesses leave the Org and also caused a drop in donations because  .people know that the money is being misused to hide pedophiles in the JW Org. 

Quote "early Christians courageously rendered worship only to Jehovah"

Please remember that.  Because JW's now render worship to their Governing Body through 'the Elder class'. 

The challenges you mentioned came from outside, but now they are coming from inside the JW Org, starting with the GB.