JOHN BUTLER

Number of Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide 8,579,909 This number is the number of people that put in monthly reports for doing the 'ministry' work. The problem with this is, that a lot of those 'people' are very young children that are forced by their parents to do that ministry, and the reports are put in by the parents. Children are basically forced to get baptised by their parents, especially if the father of the child is an Elder or Ministerial Servant. This has been proven by many young adults that have left the JW Org as soon as they are of an age to leave home. Children as young as 3 years old 'put in reports' for ministry. Age is not written on the report slip so those counting the slips have no idea of how young these children are. Somewhere on this forum there is proof of an elder giving a talk and in his talk he commends a 'sister' and her 3 year old child for the young child putting in such a report for ministry. The JW Org is allowing this to happen just to make up the numbers, because the number of adult 'witnesses' is falling dramatically. Donations to the JW Org are also falling dramatically too. Whereas once there were far more adults donating to the JW Org, now there are big families of maybe two parents and five children, but only one donation from that complete family. The horrific Child abuse scandal has made may adult witnesses leave the Org and also caused a drop in donations because .people know that the money is being misused to hide pedophiles in the JW Org. Quote "early Christians courageously rendered worship only to Jehovah" Please remember that. Because JW's now render worship to their Governing Body through 'the Elder class'. The challenges you mentioned came from outside, but now they are coming from inside the JW Org, starting with the GB.

It is good to see that people have a sense of humour and we can indeed thank Jehovah for that. I have another topic but must have a cup of coffee first. I'm spending toooo much time on this computer, but it is spiritually upbuilding. Have a good day as much as possible.

Are but topic also contains time period. So I related that to the teaching of the JW org about each Creative day being 7,000 years long. And please note in one of my comments I did apologise for being off topic It seems that things just 'evolve' ... On no, but yes, back to fossils.

The Australian Royal commision is only one thing, and i think the investigation lasted 3 years. Here in the UK we had the Charity Commision do a similar investigation with similar results. And there is mention of the IICSA, ( Inquiry Into Child Sexual Abuse ), doing a deeper investigation here in the UK. In Canada the Superior Court of Quebec have been trying to file a, $66 million, lawsuit against the JW Org/Watchtower. In the Netherlands a foundations known as 'Reclaimed Voices' are helping victims of sexual abuse within the JW Org. In USA there have been so many court cases, fines, compensation paid by the JW Org, it is getting difficult to follow now. Much of my information is out of date as it seems that news about these things is somehow being hidden from public view. There is so much information on Goggle about Child Abuse within the JW Org / Watchtower Soc, so much Pedophilia being reported, BUT go careful what you believe and research how old the news is as it does get confusing with so much to read.

Srecko I love reading your comments. You make sense and talk truth. But i am yet to find how to move forward.

Matthew 5 v 48. You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (NWT) King James Version. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Perfection can possibly mean different things to different people, especially to God. Adam was created perfect, but he could not fly. If he had jumped off a mountain and tried he would have been in trouble. Does that mean he was not perfect ? I don't think so. I think being perfect means being perfect for a specific job. The Anointed, that is the TRUE REAL Anointed ones, will be perfect for the work that God has for then to do.

Srecko I can understand your point. The GB / JW Org play with words here. But I think that any REAL Anointed person would be inspired of Holy Spirit. Doesn't God's Holy Spirit enter in to them in such a way that they know they are Anointed ? Galatians 4 v 6&7. Now because you are sons, God has sent the spirit of his Son into our hearts, and it cries out:“Abba, Father!” 7 So you are no longer a slave but a son; and if a son, then you are also an heir through God. Being a son and heir is surely being of the Anointed, and thus they have God's spirit 'in their hearts'. Surely that is inspired of Holy Spirit.

But they got it right in scripture and in giving praise to God. Unless you think we shouldn't believe what we read in the scriptures ? Quote "And the early teaching was that the great crowd were also anointed. Lately there have been articles that teach that many scriptures which were only recently applied just to the anointed, can now also be applied to the great crowd who have an earthly hope." It makes me laugh, honestly. How can anyone believe any of it then ? Where is the firm foundation of a religion that keeps changing all it's teachings ? And more importantly, where is the spiritual guidance ? It proves there isn't any. The Apostles could prove that they had God's support through Jesus Christ, by their works. The GB can prove nothing. There are lots of religions out there that are Earthwide. Catholics, Muslims, Jews and more. So it's no good saying how well the 'good news' has been spread earthwide, the bad news has been spread even further. The GB have proved nothing other than they can organise people to spread a message. BUT they keep changing that message to suit themselves. The 'light isn't getting brighter' in the JW Org, it's just changing direction and colour constantly.

Pearl Doxsey, an anointed one, Do you know for sure this person is an Anointed One ? What proof do you have ? I'm not about to jump from the frying pan into the fire.

I've had a busy day and being honest can't be bothered to look up scriptures, yes I know that is a bad attitude but it's honest BUT :- Jesus said to His apostles (anointed) " You must be perfect just as your Father in heaven is perfect" (or something close to that) . Plus, the early teaching was that ALL of the Anointed are the Faithful and discreet slave class. So what gives 8 basically American men the right to suddenly exalt themselves above all the others ? Because everyone who exalts himself will be humiliated, but whoever humbles himself will be exalted.” And if those 8 mainly American men have to resort to lies and deceit to maintain their authority, then that does not have God's approval for sure. And why would God feed them false information ? Why would they get so much wrong ? Why would they 'run ahead' of doing God's will? Do you forget the scripture of 'Ten men clinging to the skirt of a Jew' ? A spiritual Jew should be recognised by his deeds and be able to prove his position. The GB only prove themselves to be false. And i also find it funny when someone 'backs up' what they are saying by saying other people / organisations are also doing it. What difference does it make what all those false religions are doing ? Isn't your JW Org supposed to be the 'only true' religion. It's seems we are back to 'offering children to Molech'. Well other religions were doing it so it must be ok . Yes Spiritual Jews should exist. The Bible makes that clear. BUT, if not the whole body of Anointed then, IMO, 12 or possibly 13 brothers (for obvious reasons) and all from different nations. One of the points that i was told when told about the Heavenly class being from Earth, was that when in Heaven they would remember what life was like here on Earth and have Empathy and understanding. Well likewise, if the were from different nations / countries, they would have more empathy and understanding of people from all around the Earth.

But to be in the JW Org, and to openly disagree with the GB, will get a person disfellowshipped for 'Causing a division within the congregation'. A person will be called an Apostate for disagreeing with the GB especially if said person introduces ideas of their own. And there is also the point of conscience when going on the ministry knowing that some of the things you have to tell people are not true. For example, it has been proven that some quotes in Watchtower magazines are actually misquotes, deliberate misquotes. That amounts to lies. And I'm sorry to bore you with this, but it would be impossible to warn people inside or outside the JW Org about the serious danger of child abuse within the JW org, whilst being a member of JW Org. That would also get a person disfellowshipped. I'm totally off topic here and I apologise for this. Where is @Arauna ?

@JW Insider Fantastic response thank you. One big problem, I have no 'faith' in your GB any more. I'm no longer a JW and having done much 'research' I have lost all my trust in the GB. Details not needed as others will get bored with my comment. I do not believe the GB are the 'Faithful slave' and i do not believe they have God's guidance. But to balance that, I don't take for facts, the words of 'scientists' either. I'm still searching, and if God wants me to find answers I'm sure i will find them.

Can you explain this comment to me in more simple terms please, I'm only a poorly educated man. I've always believed that God created everything. I presumed he turned energy into matter. ( I'm not scientific in any way ). As for 'scientists', scientist is only a word, and to be one you need worldly wisdom not the wisdom from God, so being a 'scientist' doesn't mean much when viewing things from God's perspective does it ? I've always thought 'scientists' would find the result they are being paid to find, 'he who pays the piper calls the tune'. When i first learnt the JW beliefs i was taught that each Creative day was 7,000 years long. However the teaching seems to be now that they have no idea how long a creative day was. This was one of my first points of disappointment with the JW Org, this 'change of mind' 'Change of direction'. It brings us back to the inspired / not inspired / guess work problem. I know nothing about Carbon dating, but aren't the scrolls / parchments dated somehow ? Although I'm no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses, i am still a Christian. I still believe that Almighty God is the Creator of all things good, and that Jesus Christ is God's son and he fulfilled the ransom price. Hence I pray to God through Christ and still read God's word. Everyone knows why i left the org, but I have never said ALL of its teachings are wrong. However when the GB / Org changes its mind on things that are the foundation of its beliefs, then the complete religion becomes unstable. Are you now suggesting that the old belief of each Creative day being 7,000 years long, may be true ?

Do you really mean you are leaving us. Does that mean we should shun you ? Or have you been disfellowshipped from here ? Come on, what did you do wrong, what sin did you commit ? You couldn't be leaving of your own choice, it's not allowed you know. Sorry just my impression of the JW Org coming through there. Bye then have fun

Yep, the deeper you dig the more you will find. The GB and all those with 'a little bit of power' in the JW Org are corrupt. And telling lies is ok for them, they call it 'spiritual warfare'. What a farce it all is.

Fantastic research, well done Srecko. I'm just shocked by it all. If the complete body / every one of the anointed was the Faithful and Discreet Slave, and if God and Jesus did trust them, then why are those 8 men in America, the GB, pretending that only they are the Faithful slave ? Those 8 men in America, the GB, have stolen the authority from the other members of the Anointed. The complete number of 144,000 are supposed to be the Bride of Christ. And as you say Srecko, the GB cannot decide if they are supposed to be inspired or not. But if definitely looks like they are not inspired and not trusted by God or Jesus, just looking at the lies they tell and mistakes they make. The question is though where do we go now ? Does God have a group of people here on this Earth whom i should be amongst ?

The top heading is surely a joke.

Don't know if this is exactly a new letter but it's interesting. https://reclaimedvoices.org/en/2019/01/02/a-Jehovahs-Witness-writes-a-letter-to-all-the-Jehovahs-Witnesses-in-the-Netherlans/ Worth a read i think

So maybe you have become a follower of SM, breaking down a persons written sentence to suit your own purpose. I'll just leave the original sentence here for you to think on. Well yes you could say that a person that leaves the JW Org has become apostate to that religion, BUT what the Elders are implying is that the person has rejected God and Jesus Christ, which may not be true. Quote "At one time, you thought they were the coolest things since sliced bread. I suspect it is not the scriptures that have changed." You are right scripture does not change or should not. BUT the JW organsation has changed. I keep telling you I haven't left God and i haven't stopped believing in God's written word, I've just learnt that JW Org is not serving God properly. As for scripture not changing and it doesn't of course, but the meaning of some scriptures constantly change according to your GB. I'm sure I don't have to remind you of how they misuse many scriptures and then change the meaning when it suits them. Quote "Did they become Jehovah’s Witnesses because they figured the Presbyterians had the truth?" And tell me 'did they become JW's just to get abused ? Sexually, emotionally, mentally abused. Quote "As for your three scriptures, dig up one of the articles explaining the arrangement" You are deliberately misusing the point. My point being that most congregants have no idea why they shun others.They do it because they are told to do it. They follow blindly because they are frightened of the Elders and frightened of being disfellowshipped. Was it Peter that disowned Jesus, out of fear. Well it is certainly the congregants that disown those that leave, out of fear. I'll go back to your last point again :- Quote : At one time, you thought they were the coolest things since sliced bread. I suspect it is not the scriptures that have changed. Be careful Tom, do not mix up the Scriptures from God, with the words and traditions of men, namely your Governing Body and others 'in power' over the JW flock. God's word will always stand and always be true, unlike your GB and it's bad ways of ruling.

The sooner the better. Thanks.

Yes it's called indoctrination. Outlines from the GB no doubt and hidden instruction as to what not to say. .

A disfellowshipped person is completely SHUNNED. AND any person that leaves the JW organisation is completely SHUNNED. Grown up children are asked to leave the family home. Grown up children that do not live at home are completely SHUNNED. Any person can walk into a Kingdom Hall as it is for public to visit and listen to talks, BUT a person that is being SHUNNED will not be spoken to by anyone, and they are made to feel dirty and evil. They are put to shame by everyone else in the hall. It's horrible and definitely not Christian. But JW legal dept will of course believe that deliberately lying is part of serving God. Yes, it's called 'spiritual warfare', and they are told it is right. How low the JW Org has sunken. What shame it brings on God Himself.

Bot people like True Tom just bury their heads in the sand and will not believe how bad the situation is within the JW Org. I would think that most JW congregants don't even know how bad it is because they are too frightened to research it all. JW congregants are to brainwashed and frightened to look outside of their little box. And many of them are so comfortable in their own little lives that they really don't care... But I'm sure God will punish the Governing Body and those others 'in power' including all the Elders involved in this cover up and continuation of Child Abuse within the JW Org. My thought and prayers go out to all those who have and who are suffering Child Abuse caused by JW's and anyone else.

Why are you getting political about it ? Ah it's because politics is a distraction from truth.

Lets have plain talk not riddles. JW congregants shun those that leave the JW Org because those still in the Org are FRIGHTEND of the response by the police, sorry, Elders. The Eders act like policemen and they also lord it over the congregations. That is fact. As none of the 130 ish congregants from my ex congregation talk to me i can't ask them. But I would ask them to show me 3 scriptures that give them reason not to talk to me. I also dispute your term " avoiding associations with those who have spun 180-degrees on prior spiritual convictions ... " But it does show how you are brainwashed into thinking that the JW Org own spirituality and own a person's love for God and Jesus Christ. Please remember that communication to God through prayer, is via Jesus Christ, not via your Governing Body or your organisation. And asking for the guidance of Holy Spirit to help when studying God's written word, has nothing to do with JW Org either. The Elders will call someone an apostate so as to stop other congregants talking to that one. That is well known knowledge. Well yes you could say that a person that leaves the JW Org has become apostate to that religion, BUT what the Elders are implying is that the person has rejected God and Jesus Christ, which may not be true. As for your very first sentence "The Witness organization has said that it does not instruct parents not to associate with their disfellowshipped children", well the Witness organisation says lots of things, many of them are untrue. I will not go to the obvious example. As for your bit about splitting hairs, simple answer is GB imply something, Elders enforce it. So maybe not a written rule as maybe GB are frightened to put it in writing for legal reasons.... But Elders use it to frighten congregants, by threatening congregants with being disfellowshipped themselves if they should disobey their masters the Elders. What triggers the course of congregants is fear, fear of being reported by other congregants, to the Elders. An example here is one of our daughters that got disfellowshipped. She was reported to the Elders by one of our other daughters. The daughter that reported her didn't even contant her mother or me, she just went straight to the Elders. Some JW's are sooooo brainwashed that they do not know love, mercy or reason. They just think they can score points for reporting people. So give me three scriptures to prove why people should not talk to me them Tom. I'm not pretending to be part of the JW Org, and i left because of disgusting things taking place in the JW org. Jesus said 'Love your enemies' and i think the scriptures say i should be treated as 'tax collector'. Jesus ate meals with sinners and tax collectors. Jesus healed sinners and tax collectors. And lastly Jesus and his disciples were apostate to the Jewish religion. BUT all the Jews still spoke to Jesus and his disciples, otherwise how did the message of the Kingdom get spread around. If all the Jews had refused to accept Jesus and his disciples then they would not have received God's word and got baptised. The disciples would not have found work as tent makers and would not have been fed and offered accommodation. But your bosses, those 8 men in charge, think they know best, and it's people like you that are soooo blind which gives those 8, mainly american men, their power.