JOHN BUTLER

It is good to see that people have a sense of humour and we can indeed thank Jehovah for that. 

I have another topic but must have a cup of coffee first. I'm spending toooo much time on this computer, but it is spiritually upbuilding. 

Have a good day as much as possible. 

17 minutes ago, The Librarian said:

How can @Srecko Sostar and @JOHN BUTLER learn to stay on topic?

Let's see... the main Topic title is...... wait for it....... FOSSILS!!

Your Topic is..... SPIRIT.....

Let me see..... maybe I can add to this conversation....

I LOVE TACOS! 

Are but topic also contains time period. So I related that to the teaching of the JW org about each Creative day being 7,000 years long.

And please note in one of my comments I did apologise for being off topic  

It seems that things just 'evolve'  ... On no, but yes, back to fossils. 

36 minutes ago, Jay Iza said:

I'm a JW but not the common one anyways it does amazed me how we had 6 months of Australia Royal Child sex commission founded by the government to investigate all child abuse cases and nothing was published or was announced or made public of the outcome in the JW org. Shameful indeed. Is like nothing happened. And the worst was the answers given at the royal commission by the elders and one GB who had to give testimony. 

The Australian Royal commision is only one thing, and i think the investigation lasted 3 years.

Here in the UK we had the Charity Commision do a similar investigation with similar results.

And there is mention of the IICSA, ( Inquiry Into Child Sexual Abuse ),  doing a deeper investigation here in the UK.

In Canada the Superior Court of Quebec have been trying to file a, $66 million, lawsuit against the JW Org/Watchtower.

In the Netherlands a foundations known as 'Reclaimed Voices' are helping victims of sexual abuse within the JW Org.

In USA there have been so many court cases, fines, compensation paid by the JW Org, it is getting difficult to follow now.

Much of my information is out of date as it seems that news about these things is somehow being hidden from public view. 

There is so much information on Goggle about Child Abuse within the JW Org / Watchtower Soc, so much Pedophilia being reported, BUT go careful what you believe and research how old the news is as it does get confusing with so much to read. 

Srecko I love reading your comments. You make sense and talk truth. 

But i am yet to find how to move forward. 

12 hours ago, FelixCA said:

Can you explain how a mortal soul can accomplish this? Perfection means a sinless state just as was Christ. Adam and Eve lost that sinless state. How can an imperfect person be perfect?

 

Matthew 5 v 48.  You must accordingly be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (NWT)

King James Version.  Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. 

Perfection can possibly mean different things to different people, especially to God. 

Adam was created perfect, but he could not fly. If he had jumped off a mountain and tried he would have been in trouble. Does that mean he was not perfect ? I don't think so.  I think being perfect means being perfect for a specific job. 

The Anointed, that is the TRUE REAL Anointed ones, will be perfect for the work that God has for then to do. 

2 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Ops, issue of spirit again. According to some explanations Spirit works by spirit power. Manifestations of spirit power can be material or spiritual, i guess. Today it seems how this spirit not created material things. Also this spirit, according to some explanations not making powerful works in healing people, to rise up the dead people, no miracle feeding with bread, also not making people to speak what spirit want them to speak, etc.  Also, according to GB, nowadays people can not be inspired by this spirit (but only can be guided and motivated).

Well, i can not understand statements How this spirit helps with the rest, when he is not functioning today as spirit usually working as it is described in Bible? 

Also,  What is the difference in wording and more important what/how looks differences in  manifestation when;

- spirit inspired you, (spirit not inspired you)

- spirit guided you, (spirit not guided you)

- spirit motivated you, (spirit not motivated you)

How JW can recognized, differentiate and explain when one of this spirit acting is in progress?  

Srecko I can understand your point.  The GB / JW Org play with words here.  

But I think that any REAL Anointed person would be inspired of Holy Spirit.  Doesn't God's Holy Spirit enter in to them in such a way that they know they are Anointed ?        Galatians 4 v 6&7. 

Now because you are sons, God has sent the spirit of his Son into our hearts, and it cries out:“Abba, Father!” ⁷  So you are no longer a slave but a son; and if a son, then you are also an heir through God.

Being a son and heir is surely being of the Anointed, and thus they have God's spirit 'in their hearts'. Surely that is inspired of Holy Spirit. 

3 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

But they weren't were they? Paul admitted failings. Peter admitted failings. Paul chastised Peter, James and John. All of them had wrong ideas. We can think that they got all they needed at Pentecost to make them "perfect." But these failings lasted well beyond Pentecost. So we are forced to take a reasonable approach to what it means to be "perfect." There are scriptural principles which probably explain this saying of Jesus perfectly well in the context of the Christian congregation. For now, I think you will at least agree that the apostles were not perfect. Yet we can still imitate them in ways defined by scripture.

And the early teaching was that the great crowd were also anointed. Lately there have been articles that teach that many scriptures which were only recently applied just to the anointed, can now also be applied to the great crowd who have an earthly hope.

To the extent that they have exalted themselves, they are wrong. To the extent that they have tried their best be servants (a faithful slave class) they have perhaps seemed exalted, too. I don't think this is the criteria by which we accept or reject the doctrines they promote.

But they got it right in scripture and in giving praise to God. Unless you think we shouldn't believe what we read in the scriptures ? 

Quote "And the early teaching was that the great crowd were also anointed. Lately there have been articles that teach that many scriptures which were only recently applied just to the anointed, can now also be applied to the great crowd who have an earthly hope."

It makes me laugh, honestly. How can anyone believe any of it then ? Where is the firm foundation of a religion that keeps changing all it's teachings ?  And more importantly, where is the spiritual guidance ?  It proves there isn't any. 

The Apostles could prove that they had God's support through Jesus Christ, by their works. The GB can prove nothing.

There are lots of religions out there that are Earthwide. Catholics, Muslims, Jews and more. So it's no good saying how well the 'good news' has been spread earthwide, the bad news has been spread even further.  The GB have proved nothing other than they can organise people to spread a message. BUT they keep changing that message to suit themselves. 

The 'light isn't getting brighter' in the JW Org, it's just changing direction and colour constantly. 

Pearl Doxsey, an anointed one,  Do you know for sure this person is an Anointed One ? 

What proof do you have ?   I'm not about to jump from the frying pan into the fire. 

48 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I don't think the GB praise themselves as much as is implied here. They have recognized that they have an awesome responsibility caring for the flock. And if they are true believers that the blessings bestowed upon this organization truly come from Jehovah, then this recognition of the seriousness of the responsibility of trying to lead such an organization is a given. They see themselves trying to organize the worldwide work, coordinate the distribution of Bible-based publications, make decisions about serious issues affecting the ministry.

One of the obvious issues is legally establishing the preaching work in an effective manner under the current laws of many countries. When those laws are not in our favor they have pushed to have them changed or clarified such that religious and civil rights are protected. This has helped others, too. There are even cases where those laws are so much against our preaching activities that the GB have devised ways to try to circumvent those laws because we honestly feel they conflict with God's law to preach the good news of the Kingdom. This has sometimes been effective and sometimes not and sometimes we just can't know whether it is or it isn't.

It should be seen that the position of a Governing Body is a natural outgrowth of such a work and such an organization. It makes sense that the Lutheran Church, the Methodist, the Baptists, etc., all have similar groups that act as leaders of their activities. When the GB look back for Biblical precedents, they see the apostles, but do not wish to claim "apostolic succession." So they look for another Biblical precedent, and find one that seems appropriate. Jesus once told about how, in the time of the end that his servants could be likened to a household where the Master had gone for some time, and his return was delayed. It would be easy to imagine the chaos that could overrun a household of servants in such a situation. It would be easy to imagine how some would invariably act faithfully, and some would act unfaithfully. How do employees act when the boss has been away for some time and no one knows if he is returning tomorrow, next week, or next year! Jesus said that  that he would be able to identify who was really a faithful and wise servant, and who was an unfaithful and unwise servant. This would be by the way they acted during the time that the Master was gone.

This illustration seems appropriate because it had traditionally been referenced as far back as Nelson Barbour to hint that he might be that faithful and wise servant. Russell used the same verse to indicate that he himself was that "faithful and wise servant." Personally I don't think it's about any particular leaders at all, it's just a parable showing how easy it would be --due to the apparent delay of Christ's parousia-- to act unfaithfully and unwisely if we aren't putting the interests of the "household of faith" first. It's an illustration that spends a lot more time on the ways that this "servant" might be shown to be UNFAITHFUL rather than focusing on how faithful a particular slave might be. It's about one of the difficulties in remaining faithful, as we walk by faith not by sight, putting faith in the one who is unseen.

This fits Jesus words in related parables:

• (Luke 18:7-14) . . .Certainly, then, will not God cause justice to be done for his chosen ones who cry out to him day and night, while he is patient toward them? 8 I tell you, he will cause justice to be done to them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of man arrives, will he really find this faith on the earth?” 9 He also told this illustration to some who trusted in their own righteousness and who considered others as nothing: 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, the one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and began to pray these things to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like everyone else—extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give the tenth of all things I acquire.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing at a distance, was not willing even to raise his eyes heavenward but kept beating his chest, saying, ‘O God, be gracious to me, a sinner.’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his home and was proved more righteous than that Pharisee. Because everyone who exalts himself will be humiliated, but whoever humbles himself will be exalted.”

The irony of course is that the Bible says not to be wise in your own eyes. To most Witnesses if anyone disagrees with the GB on any particular topic, they are accused of becoming "wise in their own eyes." So the fact that the GB are considered "wise" is used as a kind of weapon to "beat" their fellow slaves. It's true that a lot of so called "wisdom" that people put forward about their own view of the Bible and critiques of various doctrines are clearly so far off that it really ought to be brought under some kind of arrangement to produce unity and agreement in our speech and doctrine. And it might seem that the only way to speak in unity about doctrine is to accept some person or small group as the doctrinal authority. For about 100 years in our organization this was always pretty much one person at a time: CTRussell, JFRutherford, FWFranz. So again, it makes sense that a specific person or small group who agree on what is right is the easiest and most logical fallback position - from a human standpoint at least.

Some of what you said is specific and is based on discussions of specific scriptural points. These points are good and should be discussed. But part of this argument seems based on the supposed absurdity idea of a group of imperfect persons, making doctrinal mistakes, could still provide doctrinal and other types of organizational leadership.

I accept that you have pointed out some claims that should not have been made from a scriptural point of view. These should be taken seriously. But I also think that it is natural and expected that a "governing body" of this sort exists, imperfections and all, and is used for a particular purpose that is very close to the current purpose.

I've had a busy day and being honest can't be bothered to look up scriptures, yes I know that is a bad attitude but it's honest  BUT :-

Jesus said to His apostles (anointed) " You must be perfect just as your Father in heaven is perfect" (or something close to that) .

Plus, the early teaching was that ALL of the Anointed are the Faithful and discreet slave class.  So what gives 8 basically American men the right to suddenly exalt themselves above all the others ?

Because everyone who exalts himself will be humiliated, but whoever humbles himself will be exalted.”

And if those 8 mainly American men have to resort to lies and deceit to maintain their authority, then that does not have God's approval for sure. 

And why would God feed them false information ? Why would they get so much wrong ? Why would they 'run ahead' of doing God's will? 

Do you forget the scripture of 'Ten men clinging to the skirt of a Jew' ?  A spiritual Jew should be recognised by his deeds and be able to prove his position. The GB only prove themselves to be false. 

And i also find it funny when someone 'backs up' what they are saying by saying other people / organisations are also doing it.  What difference does it make what all those false religions are doing ? Isn't your JW Org supposed to be the 'only true' religion. 

It's seems we are back to 'offering children to Molech'. Well other religions were doing it so it must be ok  .

Yes Spiritual Jews should exist. The Bible makes that clear. BUT, if not the whole body of Anointed then, IMO, 12 or possibly 13 brothers (for obvious reasons) and all from different nations.

One of the points that i was told when told about the Heavenly class being from Earth, was that when in Heaven they would  remember what life was like here on Earth and have Empathy and understanding. Well likewise, if the were from different nations / countries, they would have more empathy and understanding of people from all around the Earth.  

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

 

The first issue of the Watchtower made the point that truth is truth even if it comes from the mouth of Satan the Devil. Of course, we might expect the Devil to be selective about which truth to reveal, how much of it, and then be on the lookout for ulterior motives. Same is true of truth from anywhere. I think your attitude in the above statements shows reasonableness.

You might know that I also do not think the GB are the exact equivalent of the "faithful and discreet slave" of Jesus' parable. But this does not mean that we can't learn from the GB, get spiritual food from the GB, learn to grow and mature from such food, and then grow into mature Christians ourselves who should be able to distinguish right from wrong, and move on to more mature doctrines, including "standing on our own." I think that the GB serve a purpose within the congregation. They are imperfect and should never give the impression that their word is final. As one of them admitted, this would be very presumptuous of them if they did this.

A lot of Witnesses are anxious to relieve themselves from any spiritual responsibility and push all their thinking off on others, not realizing that this was never the way Jehovah intended for any of us to worship him. So a lot of JWs effectively "worship" the GB and hang on their every word. Sometimes that reverence for the GB takes a more subtle 'tack' and we begin to think that criticism of the GB makes Satan happy. Or that questioning the GB is the same as doubting Jehovah. I won't bore you with a dozen scripture showing why this is wrong, because I suspect you already know them.

 

But to be in the JW Org, and to openly disagree with the GB, will get a person disfellowshipped for 'Causing a division within the congregation'. A person will be called an Apostate for disagreeing with the GB especially if said person introduces ideas of their own. 

And there is also the point of conscience when going on the ministry knowing that some of the things you have to tell people are not true. For example, it has been proven that some quotes in Watchtower magazines are actually misquotes, deliberate misquotes. That amounts to lies. And I'm sorry to bore you with this, but it would be impossible to warn people inside or outside the JW Org about the serious danger of child abuse within the JW org, whilst being a member of JW Org. That would also get a person disfellowshipped.

I'm totally off topic here and I apologise for this. Where is @Arauna ? 

@JW Insider Fantastic response thank you.

One big problem, I have no 'faith' in your GB any more. I'm no longer a JW and having done much 'research' I have lost all my trust in the GB. Details not needed as others will get bored with my comment. 

I do not believe the GB are the 'Faithful slave' and i do not believe they have God's guidance. 

But to balance that, I don't take for facts, the words of 'scientists' either. 

I'm still searching, and if God wants me to find answers I'm sure i will find them. 

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

I left this discussion last year because the fight over semantics was so stupid. Anyone who believes the universe came from nothing or believes that something comes from nothing - one cannot argue with people like that - not worth the effort. It is a totally unscientific statement and even if you say you are a scientist 1000 times, it does not make you a scientist who bases your conclusion on evidence if you really "believe" that statement. To say that a cell "appears" to be designed proves the simplicity of the mind or proves incomprehension or lack of study of the complexity of the cell itself. Nano-biotechnology has proven the complexity. IN any case there are now many papers which prove that collagen, blood vessels and more than 10 proteins have been found together with Carbon 14 in fossils. These samples have been taken on numerous different fossils and every time there is the same result (repeated tests) without contamination.... This proves the fossils are only thousands of years old and not millions.

Can you explain this comment to me in more simple terms please, I'm only a poorly educated man. 

I've always believed that God created everything. I presumed he turned energy into matter. ( I'm not scientific in any way ). 

As for 'scientists', scientist is only a word, and to be one you need worldly wisdom not the wisdom from God, so being a 'scientist' doesn't mean much when viewing things from God's perspective does it ?  I've always thought 'scientists' would find the result they are being paid to find, 'he who pays the piper calls the tune'. 

When i first learnt the JW beliefs i was taught that each Creative day was 7,000 years long. However the teaching seems to be now that they have no idea how long a creative day was. This was one of my first points of disappointment with the JW Org, this 'change of mind' 'Change of direction'. It brings us back to the inspired / not inspired / guess work problem. 

I know nothing about Carbon dating, but aren't the scrolls / parchments dated somehow ? 

Although I'm no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses, i am still a Christian. I still believe that Almighty God is the Creator of all things good, and that Jesus Christ is God's son and he fulfilled the ransom price. Hence I pray to God through Christ and still read God's word. 

Everyone knows why i left the org, but I have never said ALL of its teachings are wrong. However when the GB / Org changes its mind on things that are the foundation of its beliefs, then the complete religion becomes unstable. 

Are you now suggesting that the old belief of each Creative day being 7,000 years long, may be true ? 

On 12/29/2018 at 3:24 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Just a note to say I am taking at least a  one year vacation from the JW-Archive and its successors starting this Sunday night, December 30, 2018.

I have been gathering data to write a series of Science Fiction Novels for over 30 years, and my wife will need the money after I go up the chimney.

Besides, I have been on for something like seven years, and it has evolved GREATLY from the silly pablum it started out as, so my irritant is no longer needed.

I will still get emails of course, when somebody posts something. 

If Robert A. Heinlein can turn out his masterpiece "Starship Troopers" in one week, on a typewriter ... and he did  ... while infuriated by Nikita Khrushchev banging his shoe on the table at the United Nations, I, with a word processor and Dragon Naturally Speaking voice to text software ought to, with practice, emulate that.

I intend to "write by the pound", six hours a day, five days a week.

I may even get up every morning, , and put on a suit and tie before sitting down at my workstations.

Hahahahahaa!

  Just kidding.

Do you really mean you are leaving us.  Does that mean we should shun you ?  Or have you been disfellowshipped from here ? Come on, what did you do wrong, what sin did you commit ? You couldn't be leaving of your own choice, it's not allowed you know. 

Sorry just my impression of the JW Org coming through there. 

Bye then have fun  

Yep, the deeper you dig the more you will find. The GB and all those with 'a little bit of power' in the JW Org are corrupt. 

And telling lies is ok for them, they call it 'spiritual warfare'.  What a farce it all is. 

Fantastic research, well done Srecko. I'm just shocked by it all. If the complete body / every one of the anointed was the Faithful and Discreet Slave, and if God and Jesus did trust them, then why are those 8 men in America, the GB, pretending that only they are the Faithful slave ? 

Those 8 men in America, the GB, have stolen the authority from the other members of the Anointed. The complete number of 144,000 are supposed to be the Bride of Christ. 

And as you say Srecko, the GB cannot decide if they are supposed to be inspired or not. But if definitely looks like they are not inspired and not trusted by God or Jesus, just looking at the lies they tell and mistakes they make. 

The question is though where do we go now ? Does God have a group of people here on this Earth whom i should be amongst ? 

The top heading is surely a joke. 

Don't know if this is exactly a new letter but it's interesting.

https://reclaimedvoices.org/en/2019/01/02/a-Jehovahs-Witness-writes-a-letter-to-all-the-Jehovahs-Witnesses-in-the-Netherlans/

Worth a read i think 

11 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

There you have it then. 

Did they become Jehovah’s Witnesses because they figured the Presbyterians had the truth? If you just want to do a Jesus and Holy Spirit thing, each one according to his own interpretation, you don’t become a Witness in the first place.

Or maybe you are smoking something. Read my two paragraphs again. That is the way it is. It doesn’t deny disfellowshipping’ it only tells how it works & how to relate it to family members. But all policies are in writing. If it is not in writing it does not exist. There is some variation with “brazen conduct.” With regard to disputes, it simply means that you can’t grab hold of the wheel of the bus.

Let us be neither silly nor paranoid:

“Paranoia strikes deep. Into your soul it will creep.

it starts when you’re always afraid.

Step out of line, the men come to take you away -

You better stop, children, what’s that sound? Everybody look what’s going on.”

Sheesh. I mean, maybe it’s not them.

As for your three scriptures, dig up one of the articles explaining the arrangement...there were a slew of them in 91, I think, plus periodic applications and updates. There you will find many scriptures in support. When you want to quarrel with each and every one of them, do it with someone else. At one time, you thought they were the coolest things since sliced bread. I suspect it is not the scriptures that have changed.

So maybe you have become a follower of SM, breaking down a persons written sentence to suit your own purpose. I'll just leave the original sentence here for you to think on. 

Well yes you could say that a person that leaves the JW Org has become apostate to that religion, BUT what the Elders are implying is that the person has rejected God and Jesus Christ, which may not be true. 

Quote "At one time, you thought they were the coolest things since sliced bread. I suspect it is not the scriptures that have changed."

You are right scripture does not change or should not. BUT the JW organsation has changed. I keep telling you I haven't left God and i haven't stopped believing in God's written word, I've just learnt that JW Org is not serving God properly. 

As for scripture not changing and it doesn't of course, but the meaning of some scriptures constantly change according to your GB. I'm sure I don't have to remind you of how they misuse many scriptures and then change the meaning when it suits them. 

Quote "Did they become Jehovah’s Witnesses because they figured the Presbyterians had the truth?"

And tell me 'did they become JW's just to get abused ? Sexually, emotionally, mentally abused. 

Quote "As for your three scriptures, dig up one of the articles explaining the arrangement" 

You are deliberately misusing the point. My point being that most congregants have no idea why they shun others.They do it because they are told to do it. They follow blindly because they are frightened of the Elders and frightened of being disfellowshipped. Was it Peter that disowned Jesus, out of fear. Well it is certainly the congregants that disown those that leave, out of fear. 

I'll go back to your last point again :-

Quote : At one time, you thought they were the coolest things since sliced bread. I suspect it is not the scriptures that have changed.

Be careful Tom, do not mix up the Scriptures from God, with the words and traditions of men, namely your Governing Body and others 'in power' over the JW flock.   God's word will always stand and always be true, unlike your GB and it's bad ways of ruling.

The sooner the better. Thanks. 

Yes it's called indoctrination. Outlines from the GB no doubt and hidden instruction as to what not to say.

.  

A disfellowshipped person is completely SHUNNED. AND any person that leaves the JW organisation is completely SHUNNED.

Grown up children are asked to leave the family home. Grown up children that do not live at home are completely SHUNNED. 

Any person can walk into a Kingdom Hall as it is for public to visit and listen to talks, BUT a person that is being SHUNNED will not be spoken to by anyone, and they are made to feel dirty and evil. They are put to shame by everyone else in the hall. It's horrible and definitely not Christian. 

But JW legal dept will of course believe that deliberately lying is part of serving God. Yes, it's called 'spiritual warfare', and they are told it is right. 

How low the JW Org has sunken. What shame it brings on God Himself. 

Bot people like True Tom just bury their heads in the sand and will not believe how bad the situation is within the JW Org. 

I would think that most JW congregants don't even know how bad it is because they are too frightened to research it all. 

JW congregants are to brainwashed and frightened to look outside of their little box. And many of them are so comfortable in their own little lives that they really don't care... 

But I'm sure God will punish the Governing Body and those others 'in power' including all the Elders involved in this cover up and continuation of Child Abuse within the JW Org. 

My thought and prayers go out to all those who have and who are suffering Child Abuse caused by JW's and anyone else. 

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The fact that you feel strongly about something does not make your opponent evil. 

This is most clearly seen with Obama vs Trump people eternally hurling epithets at one another. Surely the villains aren’t all on one side.

Why are you getting political about it ? Ah it's because politics is a distraction from truth. 

8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

“The Witness organization has said that it does not instruct parents not to associate with their disfellowshipped children. But they have produced a video of specific circumstances in which a parent ignores a phone call from one of them. What to make of this? Detractors will say that they are lying through their teeth with the first statement. I think not. I think they should be taken at their word—parents will reach their own decisions on the degree of contact they choose to maintain, since they can best assess extenuating circumstances. It becomes their decision—whether they find some or none at all. Specifically, what the Witness publications do is point out that there is no reason per se that normal counsel to avoid contact with those disfellowshipped is negated simply because there are family connections. That is not the same as “telling” families to break contact. It may seem like splitting hairs, but the difference is important.

“That statement finds further support in the many Witnesses who have departed and subsequently report that, though they were never disfellowshipped, they still find themselves estranged from the family mix. Effectively, they are "shunned" without any announcement at all, evidence that a "cult" is not telling parents what to do, but it is their appreciation for Bible counsel that triggers that course. The specific mechanics of avoiding associations with those who have spun 180-degrees on prior spiritual convictions may be arguable, but the general principle is not. When no verbal direction is given, Witnesses defer to the general principle, so it becomes plain that it was the general principle all along, rather than the commands of eight tyrannical men at headquarters. “What harmony is there between Christ and Belial?” says Paul, referring to two polar-opposite worlds and those who would choose between them.”

 

Lets have plain talk not riddles. JW congregants shun those that leave the JW Org because those still in the Org are FRIGHTEND of the response by the police, sorry, Elders. The Eders act like policemen and they also lord it over the congregations. That is fact. 

As none of the 130 ish congregants from my ex congregation talk to me i can't ask them. But I would ask them to show me 3 scriptures that give them reason not to talk to me. 

I also dispute your term " avoiding associations with those who have spun 180-degrees on prior spiritual convictions ... "  But it does show how you are brainwashed into thinking that the JW Org own spirituality and own a person's love for God and Jesus Christ. Please remember that communication to God through prayer, is via Jesus Christ, not via your Governing Body or your organisation. And asking for the guidance of Holy Spirit to help when studying God's written word, has nothing to do with JW Org either. 

The Elders will call someone an apostate so as to stop other congregants talking to that one. That is well known knowledge. Well yes you could say that a person that leaves the JW Org has become apostate to that religion, BUT what the Elders are implying is that the person has rejected God and Jesus Christ, which may not be true. 

As for your very first sentence "The Witness organization has said that it does not instruct parents not to associate with their disfellowshipped children", well the Witness organisation says lots of things, many of them are untrue. I will not go to the obvious example. 

As for your bit about splitting hairs, simple answer is GB imply something, Elders enforce it. So maybe not a written rule as maybe GB are frightened to put it in writing for legal reasons.... But Elders use it to frighten congregants, by threatening congregants with being disfellowshipped themselves if they should disobey their masters the Elders.

What triggers the course of congregants is fear, fear of being reported by other congregants, to the Elders. An example here is one of our daughters that got disfellowshipped. She was reported to the Elders by one of our other daughters. The daughter that reported her didn't even contant her mother or me, she just went straight to the Elders.  Some JW's are sooooo brainwashed that they do not know love, mercy or reason. They just think they can score points for reporting people. 

So give me three scriptures to prove why people should not talk to me them Tom. I'm not pretending to be part of the JW Org, and i left because of disgusting things taking place in the JW org.  Jesus said 'Love your enemies'  and i think the scriptures say i should be treated as 'tax collector'. Jesus ate meals with sinners and tax collectors. Jesus healed sinners and tax collectors. 

And lastly Jesus and his disciples were apostate to the Jewish religion. BUT all the Jews still spoke to Jesus and his disciples, otherwise how did the message of the Kingdom get spread around. If all the Jews had refused to accept Jesus and his disciples then they would not have received God's word and got baptised. The disciples would not have found work as tent makers and would not have been fed and offered accommodation.  But your bosses, those 8 men in charge, think they know best, and it's people like you that are soooo blind which gives those 8, mainly american men, their power. 

@Space Merchant Quote "Indeed, there are many faiths, but only a few led us to the True God.. " 

You think there is more than one Faith ?  More than one way of serving God properly ?   

Quote "Be it you agree with them or not, slander shouldn't be a means against these people."  You are right of course. Because slander is lies, whereas truth must be told. 

Quote "To make claim that they worship the Devil is silly, .. "  I didn't say they worshipped the Devil, I said they were serving the Devil. But perhaps i should have worded it better. Muslims are being used by the Devil, the same as the Devil uses other false religions. The Devil uses governments and big business people as well. 

Quote "One of the CORE differences between a True Christian and a Muslim is that Christians believe in Jesus' sacrifice, Muslims believe this too, but they do not believe he had been executed, but saved before that happened, and then ascended into heaven." 

If Jesus did not die as a perfect human then the price has not been paid. Jesus DID die to pay the ransom, the perfect price paid for the sin of Adam. One perfect man died to pay for the other perfect man that sinned. In this all true Christians have hope.  This in itself proves that Islam is a lie. To say that Jesus did not willingly give his life for us is totally against God and His Christ.

Quote " None of what I said are lies... "  I'm sorry if my wording is unclear. What i was meaning was that you proved that other people were telling lies. I did not mean they you were telling lies. 

Quote, "because you actually believe what that image says whereas in reality, those misconceptions have been exposed to be false, .. "

I care not what the sign says, but you are correct i have not studied Islam or the Quran. Nor would I. I think the Pope of the Catholic church dables in Islam and has the Quran read to him, proving the Pope himself is a false christian. I have no need of Islam or the Quran. There is only one true God and only one true Son of God, Jesus Christ. i have this faith in God, and i have no need to dig into in the Devil's work. 

We could talk of much more but we will not agree on much. In my opinion God does not want people to be of multi-faith or to give place to other faiths. If a person does not believe that Jesus was sent to this Earth to give his life willingly on our behalf, then what conversation is there ? If there is no level ground, and if God Himself is being insulted, then those that insult God in such a way should be kept away from. To try to teach people is good of course, but to be friends with those that will not respect God and His son Jesus Christ, is not so good.